:00:00. > :00:10.Tonight, as the government tackles the use of Grenfell Tower-style
:00:11. > :00:13.cladding in other local authority housing, Newsnight reveals that
:00:14. > :00:16.a leading hotel chain is questioning the cladding on three
:00:17. > :00:21.We'll get reaction from Parliament, the Fire Brigades Union,
:00:22. > :00:33.Probably not Theresa May's favourite assignment, meeting other EU leaders
:00:34. > :00:39.in her somewhat wee juiced circumstances. She put on a brave
:00:40. > :00:49.face. Other Europeans have adopted a perplexed tone. I think, I don't
:00:50. > :00:53.know what the British want. I am in Brussels and we'll be asking if the
:00:54. > :00:55.Europeans are, for the moment, being polite but unhelpful.
:00:56. > :00:58.And what was it like in Aleppo during the last days of the siege?
:00:59. > :01:24.We follow local journalists as they leave their hometown.
:01:25. > :01:33.The government confirmed this evening
:01:34. > :01:36.that the number of high rise blocks of flats found to have combustible
:01:37. > :01:39.cladding similar to that used on Grenfell Tower has risen
:01:40. > :01:40.to 11, across eight local authorities.
:01:41. > :01:44.But tonight, concerns about safety are extending
:01:45. > :01:47.beyond the housing sector, into a leading hotel chain.
:01:48. > :01:50.Premier Inn has told Newsnight that it is "extremely concerned"
:01:51. > :01:53.about the cladding on three of its high rise hotels.
:01:54. > :01:57.After an urgent review the company has advised this programme
:01:58. > :02:00.that the developers responsible for the construction
:02:01. > :02:03.of hotels in Maidenhead, Brentford and Tottenham had
:02:04. > :02:06.installed cladding that Premier Inn says does not appear to comply
:02:07. > :02:24.The Grenfell Tower still casts its shadow over Britain. Today the
:02:25. > :02:29.government revealed that the external cladding on 600 buildings
:02:30. > :02:32.is now being investigated. The house should be careful on speculation of
:02:33. > :02:36.what caused the fire but as a precaution the government have
:02:37. > :02:41.arranged to test cladding in all 11 tower blocks. Shortly before I came
:02:42. > :02:44.to the chamber I was informed that a number of these tests have come back
:02:45. > :02:50.as compost the ball. The relevant local authorities and services have
:02:51. > :02:54.been informed and they are taking all possible steps to insure that
:02:55. > :02:59.buildings are safe and to inform affected residents. Cladding was a
:03:00. > :03:03.key issue at Grenfell, the building's outer skin was an
:03:04. > :03:11.aluminium composite material which is quite common, bound around a core
:03:12. > :03:18.of something. The best cladding has a minimal call which is completely
:03:19. > :03:25.non-combustible but at Grenfell it was polyethylene, a plastic, which
:03:26. > :03:27.may have let the fire spread so the government is looking at those at
:03:28. > :03:33.600 buildings to see how many may have cladding width too combustible
:03:34. > :03:41.A call. A new worrying element emerged today. A Camden tower block
:03:42. > :03:47.contained a major fire back in 2012. Canned and believe this is because
:03:48. > :03:53.they have a safer kind of cladding -- Camden. But they have revealed
:03:54. > :03:55.that they were not supplied with the cladding they thought they had
:03:56. > :03:59.bought for some of their buildings. We thought we were dealing with
:04:00. > :04:04.reputable companies, we feel let down and the tenants feel let down.
:04:05. > :04:10.My priority is to make sure that the tenants feel safe which is why we're
:04:11. > :04:14.putting in place 24-7 fire wardens and to take down the extra panels.
:04:15. > :04:19.Five towers are having cladding stripped off them. We know we have
:04:20. > :04:27.13 of the taller buildings across Camden and these one the Leeds ones
:04:28. > :04:32.in particular were clad as the same company as riding, who did the work
:04:33. > :04:39.in Kensington, so it was top of our list, to look at the workmanship and
:04:40. > :04:48.projects that we used and make sure we 100% sure that our residents are
:04:49. > :04:50.safe -- as Rydon. I am in Maidenhead, Theresa May's
:04:51. > :04:57.constituency and the building behind me is her local Premier Inn. It is
:04:58. > :05:02.covered in cladding, specifically an aluminium composite material. If it
:05:03. > :05:06.were being used as social housing it will have had to send a sample of
:05:07. > :05:09.the cladding to the government for testing to ensure it was one of the
:05:10. > :05:14.safe and not the unsafe forms of aluminium cladding but because it is
:05:15. > :05:21.used as a hotel there is no such obligation. So we checked and this
:05:22. > :05:26.hotel is one of three Premier Inns which the company says do not appear
:05:27. > :05:29.to meet the required standards. They say that the developers were
:05:30. > :05:43.responsible for the construction of the buildings.
:05:44. > :05:52.Premier Inn also said that an independent expert has assured them
:05:53. > :05:55.that those three hotels are safe to continue operating given their
:05:56. > :06:00.evacuation plans and robust safety measures. Working out whether things
:06:01. > :06:02.are compliant is surprisingly complex because people can
:06:03. > :06:09.commission tests to prove that things work in certain scenarios,
:06:10. > :06:12.so-called desktop studies. It is open to wiggle room in that the
:06:13. > :06:17.criteria given for which tests should be used in the desktop study
:06:18. > :06:24.are not laid down and it does not say who is qualified or is not
:06:25. > :06:28.qualified to do such a study. A tougher building rule book is surely
:06:29. > :06:30.already on the cards. A simple one may be wise as well.
:06:31. > :06:42.You have singled out Premier Inn. Is it fair to do that? Not really at
:06:43. > :06:46.all, to be honest. We had a list of buildings which we believed have
:06:47. > :06:50.issues potentially with their cladding and we went to Premier Inn
:06:51. > :06:54.and they were very honest and straightforward and replied
:06:55. > :06:58.immediately after they had checked. It's important to stress that it is
:06:59. > :07:01.not Premier Inn we should be worrying about. Furthermore it is
:07:02. > :07:06.important to stress that the cladding they used is a fire
:07:07. > :07:11.retardant cladding. It isn't of the sort that automatically meets all of
:07:12. > :07:16.the codes but it isn't bad, not the stuff we think was used at Grenfell.
:07:17. > :07:21.Furthermore, they have multiple escape routes in the hotels, alarms
:07:22. > :07:24.in every room. There's no reason to be particularly worried about them.
:07:25. > :07:28.It's unfortunate that we singled them out because they were so honest
:07:29. > :07:31.with us when we went to them. It tells you that a lot of people don't
:07:32. > :07:37.know what is at the heart of their cladding. No, absolutely. Nick, in
:07:38. > :07:41.terms of the political ramifications, does it feel like the
:07:42. > :07:46.government is on top of the scale of the problem? It has been a difficult
:07:47. > :07:49.week for Theresa May because of what she described today as the
:07:50. > :07:54.unimaginable scale of the tragedy, the woeful response on the ground
:07:55. > :07:57.for which she apologised and her misjudgement in failing, on her
:07:58. > :08:01.first visit, to meet the residents and their families, failure to win
:08:02. > :08:06.their confidence and make a connection in the way that Jeremy
:08:07. > :08:11.Corbyn did. Today was her first chance in Parliament to update MPs
:08:12. > :08:16.properly since the election. She sends two significant signals.
:08:17. > :08:21.First, she hears the concerns of the residents who say that this tragedy
:08:22. > :08:25.highlights a really big point about our society, that people living in
:08:26. > :08:27.the heart of London, living completely different and
:08:28. > :08:32.fundamentally different lives to people in Westminster, that she
:08:33. > :08:36.understands the concern. The second big signal she wanted to send, that
:08:37. > :08:41.the government has a grip but there was an unfortunate moment this
:08:42. > :08:45.morning when Number ten, as Chris reported, said that 600 high-rise
:08:46. > :08:49.buildings have similar cladding to Grenfell Tower and it turns out it
:08:50. > :08:54.was expanded tower blocks that had cladding. Downing Street at the
:08:55. > :08:59.moment, not quite functioning properly. Yes, a bit of confusion.
:09:00. > :09:00.We did invite the government onto the programme tonight
:09:01. > :09:03.Instead, I'm joined by the Conservative
:09:04. > :09:05.MP Sir David Amess, chair of the all-Party Parliamentary
:09:06. > :09:11.Also with me is Matt Wrack, the general secretary
:09:12. > :09:13.of the Fire Brigades Union, and Pilgrim Tucker from
:09:14. > :09:15.the Grenfell Action Group which represented residents
:09:16. > :09:27.I wanted to pick up on the back of Chris's piece, first with you,
:09:28. > :09:32.David. This is not to retract from what we are learning about social
:09:33. > :09:38.housing, which must be the priority but this discovery suggests there
:09:39. > :09:42.could be a much wider problem with building regulation as a whole,
:09:43. > :09:45.doesn't it? Absolutely and I'm shocked by what I've heard. The
:09:46. > :09:51.committee is going to look at it very quickly. It's so frustrating
:09:52. > :09:54.that we've been asking for the building regulations to be reviewed
:09:55. > :10:02.every year and nothing at all has happened until now. I wanted to say,
:10:03. > :10:05.before I came from my office in Westminster, Sajid Javid the
:10:06. > :10:09.Communities Secretary sent all MPs a letter setting out in detail what he
:10:10. > :10:13.is asking local authorities and housing associations to do. I am
:10:14. > :10:22.reassured that the government has got a grip on the situation that
:10:23. > :10:27.should haven't -- that shouldn't have happened. There is some
:10:28. > :10:35.confusion about a desktop study, the criteria. We just don't know what
:10:36. > :10:39.the law is, do we? We don't, but MPs, ministers are experts in these
:10:40. > :10:43.matters -- they aren't experts, they depend on advice and the idea that
:10:44. > :10:48.cladding should contain any element that is combustible is crazy. I
:10:49. > :10:55.don't think people will understand that because it seems that we have
:10:56. > :10:58.done via research, even, not just the scale of the problem was so
:10:59. > :11:03.shocking but the fact that it happened at all in 2017, are we not
:11:04. > :11:08.on top of fire regulation in the way that we thought we were? Clearly
:11:09. > :11:13.not, from what has happened and what is unfolding across the country. You
:11:14. > :11:18.mentioned research, one fact is that in terms of government commissioned
:11:19. > :11:22.fire research, there is virtually no government commissioned fire
:11:23. > :11:25.research in the UK. A team used to exist in the Department for
:11:26. > :11:30.Communities and Local Government, but they have gone after the cuts.
:11:31. > :11:34.If local authorities... The debate about cladding had been going on for
:11:35. > :11:41.a long time, we submitted evidence to Parliament in 1999 about it. If
:11:42. > :11:44.the Fire Services or local authorities identified this and
:11:45. > :11:48.said, let's commissioned research, there is no want to go to because
:11:49. > :11:52.every time you raise the issue, and David found this from a different
:11:53. > :11:56.angle, you run into obstacles, you are placing obstacles in the way of
:11:57. > :12:02.development, red tape and so on and that is the endless mantra. We come
:12:03. > :12:06.from different angles but anyone who has raised issues about fire safety
:12:07. > :12:12.will run into that brick wall. That's the irony. We talked on that
:12:13. > :12:15.first night after the fire and the people who knew and had real worries
:12:16. > :12:21.were those who had voices that were not being heard. Not being heard,
:12:22. > :12:26.no. Is your sense that that is now changing? I don't believe that is
:12:27. > :12:33.changing, I heard that Theresa May said she understood about inequality
:12:34. > :12:36.and I don't think she can do. If she did she would rapidly start
:12:37. > :12:42.reversing some of the Conservative legislation that has been enacted
:12:43. > :12:51.since 2010. I'm really appalled, I'm still getting over hearing that
:12:52. > :12:55.Rydon misled the council in terms of the cladding it was putting on the
:12:56. > :13:00.building. That is shocking. Isn't that the problem that many of these
:13:01. > :13:06.companies have contractors and subcontractors. Premier Inn were
:13:07. > :13:10.very honest and tried to provide clarity but they don't know what is
:13:11. > :13:15.on their building. Premier Inn owned the Hotel chain, it is not the
:13:16. > :13:19.contractor putting it on. Rydon is the contractor, so they should know
:13:20. > :13:24.what materials it is using. Local government should have the capacity
:13:25. > :13:28.to scrutinise and oversee what contracts it is going into but it
:13:29. > :13:34.doesn't and that's a consequence of these government cuts since 2010.
:13:35. > :13:40.That's really the root cause of the killing of all of these people. Do
:13:41. > :13:45.you think that the government should ask all of these departments...?
:13:46. > :13:54.What happens in terms of who has to go to the government, to have their
:13:55. > :13:59.cladding or materials fire checked? There our research stations that
:14:00. > :14:02.perform tests on the materials, performing them in particular
:14:03. > :14:05.circumstances and if you are a manufacturer you're going to make
:14:06. > :14:10.sure that when your material is tested, you send the best fitters to
:14:11. > :14:14.fit it in the way that you want it to be fitted, there will be a
:14:15. > :14:17.technical sheet going out to the construction firm who fit it but the
:14:18. > :14:21.question is, who is monitoring it as it is put on? That is, if it
:14:22. > :14:28.complies with the regulations anyway. In this particular case, for
:14:29. > :14:30.us there are questions about the design in which the cladding is
:14:31. > :14:33.applied to the building because there seems to have been some
:14:34. > :14:39.decorative boxing on each corner of the building. You're talking about
:14:40. > :14:43.Grenfell? An Grenfell Tower, there are a host of questions and clearly,
:14:44. > :14:52.people haven't got to grips with this. This is, I think it goes
:14:53. > :14:57.longer, I think it has got worse since 2010 but the whole regime is
:14:58. > :15:03.about deregulation, and anyone who raises safety concerns runs into
:15:04. > :15:08.this brick wall. It is welcome to hear a bit of a U-turn today on some
:15:09. > :15:15.of this but why it has taken a week to have this material tested, I
:15:16. > :15:20.think people will be shocked. And when, as a Tory MP, UCB blame being
:15:21. > :15:24.laid at the door of Conservative policies, do you refute any of that
:15:25. > :15:29.or do you say that we have to look at the cuts and the way we have
:15:30. > :15:32.regulated and our culture of prioritise intercutting of red tape
:15:33. > :15:39.or whatever? With all of those things I accept
:15:40. > :15:45.they must look at but I don't want to get into the party politics
:15:46. > :15:48.really because 2008 there was an economic crash, 2009 the disaster
:15:49. > :15:54.and that is when we should have taken action. In spite of the
:15:55. > :15:59.resources local authorities have got already, this is not very good, it
:16:00. > :16:03.does not reflect at all, local authorities should still be able to
:16:04. > :16:07.do checks and there is something not right about this. Whether it is the
:16:08. > :16:10.contractors or new products available, I am very pleased we are
:16:11. > :16:17.going to have this enquiry when I think the truth will come out. There
:16:18. > :16:20.will be residents, we now know 11 more towers, this is a very delicate
:16:21. > :16:28.situation for the government and those people as well, what would
:16:29. > :16:31.you, if they were calling you up now or see you as a voice for Grenfell
:16:32. > :16:34.residents, what would you say, it's not just to do with the cladding
:16:35. > :16:39.because there will be other precautions like sprinklers in place
:16:40. > :16:45.would you say leave the tower and your home and now? Contact somebody
:16:46. > :16:49.like Matt but you would want to start getting something like the
:16:50. > :16:56.cladding taken down. That would be a sensible thing to do. I think so. It
:16:57. > :17:01.was not cladding which caused the issues in 2009, it was what other
:17:02. > :17:04.alterations? If we just focus on cladding we will miss out on other
:17:05. > :17:11.operations which have affected fire safety within the building. There
:17:12. > :17:17.may be a whole, a thorough audit of every single high-rise building and
:17:18. > :17:20.London Fire Brigade today has altered the attendance of Fire
:17:21. > :17:25.Services at calls to those premises, that should happen across the UK
:17:26. > :17:29.immediately. Thank you all. We should mention that the contractor
:17:30. > :17:33.in that discussion involved in the cladding of Grenfell Tower and in
:17:34. > :17:36.Camden but they are not connected to Premier Inn just to clarify.
:17:37. > :17:39.That's it from me for now - but now let's go over
:17:40. > :17:43.Hello, from the Justus Lipsius building here in Brussels -
:17:44. > :17:46.behind me the good folks of the media, excitedly
:17:47. > :17:47.working on their stories from the European Council
:17:48. > :17:51.It's the first time Theresa May has met all her counterparts
:17:52. > :17:56.And to think, that was just two weeks ago.
:17:57. > :18:00.Back then, she - we - thought she'd be here with a strong
:18:01. > :18:03.personal mandate and voter backing for her version of Brexit.
:18:04. > :18:06.Had that outcome pertained, Britain would certainly have had
:18:07. > :18:08.a leader with unassailable authority to negotiate and sign
:18:09. > :18:16.But now she finds herself a minority leader, coping
:18:17. > :18:18.with crisis and anger at home, with a parliament unkeen
:18:19. > :18:21.on her version of Brexit, and a nation utterly divided
:18:22. > :18:25.So, it wasn't her strutting in with a big mandate,
:18:26. > :18:27.but Emmanuel Macron of France, the new hero of the
:18:28. > :18:34.Tonight, Mrs May told the others her proposals
:18:35. > :18:37.for EU citizens in the UK, post Brexit; one step
:18:38. > :18:43.Our diplomatic editor Mark Urban is with me.
:18:44. > :18:50.Just about this offer which broke tonight, on UK citizens and their
:18:51. > :18:55.rights, EU citizens and their rights? Theresa May hoping to regain
:18:56. > :19:01.the initiative with this offer. Broadly, 3 million EU citizens in
:19:02. > :19:04.the UK at the moment can all remain, through a five-year naturalisation
:19:05. > :19:08.process they can in fact have all the same rights as all other UK
:19:09. > :19:13.citizens whether that is education or medically speaking, whatever. The
:19:14. > :19:18.second point is you could still arrive and start that five-year
:19:19. > :19:22.clock, it gave a cut-off date somewhere between the Article 50
:19:23. > :19:28.declaration and the end of this process in 2019. We are already some
:19:29. > :19:31.months into that and it's going to negotiation, it could still be
:19:32. > :19:36.possible to arrive and start that five-year process. And a
:19:37. > :19:40.streamlining of the process for naturalisation, some people have
:19:41. > :19:45.complained about that, 85 pages, the UK Government will look again and
:19:46. > :19:49.make it simpler. That is the package in effect. We are not getting a lot
:19:50. > :19:53.of reaction to that because they do not want to get into negotiation
:19:54. > :20:01.about that. It's not going to happen. No. The fascinating thing
:20:02. > :20:06.about this summit is how awkward it always. You have 28 arriving, then
:20:07. > :20:10.one has to leave at a certain point. We already knew that was happening,
:20:11. > :20:15.add a couple of previous meetings but it's so awkward. Now these
:20:16. > :20:20.concrete proposals are being made, the EU standing on its formal
:20:21. > :20:24.position of seeing no, it's done through Michel Barnier and David
:20:25. > :20:29.Davis, that is when the conversation will resume next week. They will not
:20:30. > :20:34.give her any sort of proper reaction to her proposed packages. A whole
:20:35. > :20:36.second level of awkwardness because of the outcome of the UK general
:20:37. > :20:40.election where people see her weekend, they see things happening
:20:41. > :20:44.like Philip Hammond the chance for this morning opening up all sorts of
:20:45. > :20:53.possibilities, talking about three or four year transitional period.
:20:54. > :20:56.Maybe past the date of a UK election before we know what the trading
:20:57. > :21:02.terms will be and under what terms would be carry on during those three
:21:03. > :21:06.or four years added onto the Article 52-mac years? That has led people
:21:07. > :21:17.here to be more vocal and open things up to debate.
:21:18. > :21:19.It's never been easy, getting the 28 to move
:21:20. > :21:28.Now 27 are learning that there is something even harder.
:21:29. > :21:30.Managing the departure of a nation from this place
:21:31. > :21:37.Theresa May arrived, post-election a wounded antelope
:21:38. > :21:40.to use a phrase coined by a Tory colleague - but hoping
:21:41. > :21:47.We will be setting out how we propose to ensure that EU
:21:48. > :21:49.citizens living in the UK have their rights protected
:21:50. > :21:58.Hearing the different views emerging from within Theresa May's cabinet,
:21:59. > :22:06.many of the European leaders arriving here are discarding
:22:07. > :22:09.the usual protocol of not commenting on another states affairs
:22:10. > :22:11.and giving their own version of what they think
:22:12. > :22:15.I think if there is a continued link to the the internal market
:22:16. > :22:17.and the customs union, in one form or another,
:22:18. > :22:19.including accepting that it also means the court in Luxembourg,
:22:20. > :22:23.if we could come to something like that, I am hopeful.
:22:24. > :22:24.And reminding everyone of the wider interest,
:22:25. > :22:31.TRANSLATION: For me, the future of the EU 27 takes
:22:32. > :22:41.precedence over negotiating the UK's exit from the EU.
:22:42. > :22:45.That spread of attitudes, from let's make Brexit
:22:46. > :22:50.as soft as possible, to will you just get on with it,
:22:51. > :22:53.runs through Europe's geographic and ideological axis.
:22:54. > :22:55.But they have been able to rally around their early priorities
:22:56. > :22:58.for negotiations and at the top of those, the rights of EU
:22:59. > :23:02.I believe it is outrageous the way the government treats people
:23:03. > :23:13.I mean, EU nationals, residing in the UK, and I am saying
:23:14. > :23:16.this because all these people, they don't know if they will
:23:17. > :23:18.still have the right to continue their life and work
:23:19. > :23:24.They need clarity, predictability and I would add
:23:25. > :23:33.In an attempt to answer that anger and move on the talks,
:23:34. > :23:36.Theresa May arrived bearing an offer on EU citizens relating to UK
:23:37. > :23:50.But given the strength of European views, they won't yield much,
:23:51. > :23:51.particularly in the transitional phase of Brexit,
:23:52. > :23:55.You want a lot of things that are impossible without accepting
:23:56. > :24:00.the European Court of Justice jurisdiction, the whole transition
:24:01. > :24:08.period which is practically the extension of what we call...
:24:09. > :24:10.Here in Brussels, which is simply the European union law,
:24:11. > :24:14.This is all under the supervision of the European Court of Justice
:24:15. > :24:17.and if you want to maintain the certain rights for the citizens
:24:18. > :24:20.and you want to have a transition period also that would allow
:24:21. > :24:22.you to continue maybe also with some other rights,
:24:23. > :24:25.then we cannot accept that there is no European Court of
:24:26. > :24:28.Justice because the European Court of Justice is the only court
:24:29. > :24:41.that we accept having the right to interpret European law.
:24:42. > :24:43.There are plenty in Brussels who've become more pessimistic post UK
:24:44. > :24:45.election about finding a way through Brexit.
:24:46. > :24:48.But speaking for the 27 governments, the council president tried
:24:49. > :24:51.The European Union was built on dreams that seemed
:24:52. > :25:06.You may say that I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.
:25:07. > :25:10.Having made her citizens rights pitch tonight to the 27,
:25:11. > :25:12.Theresa May trudged out of the summit leaving the others
:25:13. > :25:19.Their response will come via negotiator Michel Barnier,
:25:20. > :25:21.a measure of the EU's determination to stick to its own
:25:22. > :25:31.Mark Urban out and about in Brussels today.
:25:32. > :25:34.A phrase that has been habitualy adopted by politicians in the last
:25:35. > :25:37.few months in answer to any question at all, is "I've been
:25:38. > :25:41.Theresa May used it a lot, and you have to say,
:25:42. > :25:43.she was clear about Brexit in her Lancaster House
:25:44. > :25:51.Earlier today I spoke to Antonio Tajani, he's the Italian
:25:52. > :25:55.serving as President of the European Parliament.
:25:56. > :25:58.He's not a Brexit negotiator as such, however he is a player
:25:59. > :26:05.in all of this, as the parliament has to approve any deal.
:26:06. > :26:09.I asked him if the negotiation had changed given the UK election
:26:10. > :26:11.results. We will have the separation
:26:12. > :26:14.between London and Brussels. And we need to achieve
:26:15. > :26:16.agreement on the framework And then we need to start
:26:17. > :26:32.for an agreement for the day after. I think after the British elections,
:26:33. > :26:34.the situation for hard Brexit, For this, now it is
:26:35. > :26:42.important to be pragmatic. As I said from the beginning,
:26:43. > :26:46.it's important now to work also for paving the way
:26:47. > :26:52.for the day after. And we start that now, we need
:26:53. > :26:55.to start thinking about that. Exactly, the negotiations
:26:56. > :26:58.are starting. We need to work for the future also
:26:59. > :27:02.because the UK will leave the European Union but not Europe
:27:03. > :27:06.and we need to cooperate in the future against terrorism,
:27:07. > :27:14.against illegal immigration. Also on the defence sector
:27:15. > :27:18.because the UK is a member of Nato. Trade as well, and you're
:27:19. > :27:21.happy to start those talks fairly quickly now,
:27:22. > :27:23.not waiting until But to start thinking about the
:27:24. > :27:28.future relationship pretty quickly. No, we need before to decide
:27:29. > :27:32.the framework of the separation. Second step, after the agreement
:27:33. > :27:37.on the framework it's possible to start for an agreement
:27:38. > :27:40.for the future. In my opinion it's possible
:27:41. > :27:42.to achieve the goal But the separation,
:27:43. > :27:48.end of next year? That means we don't start talking
:27:49. > :27:53.about the future relationship No, no, no, for us it's important
:27:54. > :27:57.before to decide the separation. After the separation
:27:58. > :28:00.it's possible to speak, Do you feel Britain
:28:01. > :28:06.knows what it wants now? Obviously we had an election
:28:07. > :28:09.that was indecisive in some ways. I think, I don't know
:28:10. > :28:19.what the British want. Probably they are against
:28:20. > :28:27.the Brussels bureaucracy. A lot of problems, a lot of rules,
:28:28. > :28:32.the power, the European Commission, a lot of people working,
:28:33. > :28:40.civil servants, imposing rules. But I don't know if the British
:28:41. > :28:45.are not very well... The situation, the day after,
:28:46. > :28:50.without internal market. A lot of people are talking
:28:51. > :28:53.about transitional arrangements. I mean, how long do
:28:54. > :28:57.you think transitional No, no, no, the European Parliament
:28:58. > :29:03.proposal is short-term, Do you feel you know what Britain's
:29:04. > :29:19.negotiating position is on Single Market,
:29:20. > :29:21.on customs union? It's not our job, it's not our job,
:29:22. > :29:25.is the British job, the UK wants It's not the European Union against
:29:26. > :29:29.the UK, if they want to leave. The implementation Article
:29:30. > :29:31.50, what they want? They want to leave
:29:32. > :29:33.the European Union, they want a model as a Norway,
:29:34. > :29:35.a Switzerland or they want I don't know, after the election,
:29:36. > :29:43.the referendum, really, For me, it's important
:29:44. > :29:53.to achieve agreement. The problem in a way
:29:54. > :29:58.at the moment is we don't Staying in the EU, impossible
:29:59. > :30:10.because there is no consensus. We don't have a consensus
:30:11. > :30:12.on any one model... Nobody knows, it's
:30:13. > :30:13.possible to change. But there is no consensus on any
:30:14. > :30:17.model outside the EU. Could you offer us a thing
:30:18. > :30:33.that is outside the EU but allows us The problem is, what Mrs May, what
:30:34. > :30:37.the UK Government want to do, they want to leave Europe and nothing
:30:38. > :30:41.more or they want to have closer cooperation in the next year, an
:30:42. > :30:44.example is the cooperation between Europe and Norway. It's a good
:30:45. > :30:51.example. But nobody knows. Before the elections,
:30:52. > :30:53.the May position was very strong. Now, I think in the UK,
:30:54. > :30:56.the situation is more flexible, in my point of view
:30:57. > :30:58.but during the negotiation it is I think we don't have a final
:30:59. > :31:07.position in the UK. If the UK wants to achieve another
:31:08. > :31:18.agreement, it's possible to do it but we need to ask
:31:19. > :31:20.the European Union. We want to stay in agreement
:31:21. > :31:22.as a Switzerland or a Norway. In my opinion it's possible too
:31:23. > :31:33.but it's possible to decide on this For this I think it's important
:31:34. > :32:00.to know the real position of the UK. At times when I talked to him he
:32:01. > :32:07.sounded like someone who was trying to scare Britain but Brexit is
:32:08. > :32:08.scary. Let's find out what my guests think.
:32:09. > :32:11.Tom Nuttall is the Charlemagne columnist for The Economist.
:32:12. > :32:13.And Verena Schmitt-Roschmann is the Brussels bureau chief
:32:14. > :32:24.Look, it seems like today, lots of people have been saying, you can
:32:25. > :32:31.change your mind. Do they think we might change our mind? There may be
:32:32. > :32:37.some hope that the Brits might come to their senses because there isn't
:32:38. > :32:49.a clear notion about what Brexit means. The general line in the EU,
:32:50. > :32:53.think about it again. But we aren't necessarily expecting you to. Tom,
:32:54. > :32:58.it seems to have got more complex since the election because the
:32:59. > :33:06.original Theresa May Brexit had a certain sympathy to it. Do they
:33:07. > :33:11.think so as well? Yes, they were rather dismayed by the election
:33:12. > :33:14.because previously we knew that Britain wanted to leave the Single
:33:15. > :33:19.Market and Customs union and we were on course for what is known as a
:33:20. > :33:22.hard Brexit but now the process is shrouded in uncertainty. Will there
:33:23. > :33:27.be another election, will they still be negotiating with Theresa May and
:33:28. > :33:31.David Davis in six months' time, will be British policy remain the
:33:32. > :33:35.same? What they hoped would be a stable and orderly and discreet
:33:36. > :33:40.process looks rather uncertain. Does it feel that Britain is using up
:33:41. > :33:49.goodwill, it is burning through its credit of goodwill? I don't think
:33:50. > :33:56.so. The EU side have settled on the notion that we want to get on with
:33:57. > :34:00.it, get it over with. I think that's the main feeling, to start and Mac
:34:01. > :34:06.orderly process and you know, checked off different things. Do you
:34:07. > :34:11.think you can divide the 27? They have been quite united, they can't
:34:12. > :34:18.talk about anything without Michel Barnier's say so. They seem pretty
:34:19. > :34:25.unified and I wouldn't personally waste my time on it! There may be
:34:26. > :34:32.some kind of cracks but I think the main interest is to really get on
:34:33. > :34:40.with it. The EU has an interest in leaving the story behind and getting
:34:41. > :34:45.on. Where does this goal, do you think? It feels like it will be
:34:46. > :34:50.rather difficult to have a different kind of Brexit and yet it feels like
:34:51. > :34:52.we haven't quite settled on one. It's very hard to say, it's all
:34:53. > :34:58.about what happens in British politics now. We had the negotiation
:34:59. > :35:03.formally beginning this week when David Davis turned up in Brussels
:35:04. > :35:09.and sat down with Michel Barnier and spoke about money, citizens issues
:35:10. > :35:12.and Ireland and those issues will get into the nitty-gritty now we
:35:13. > :35:16.have this offer from the British government of citizens rights. As
:35:17. > :35:20.far as the European side is concerned they will proceed on the
:35:21. > :35:23.basis of what they hear from Britain but what they hear from Britain is
:35:24. > :35:29.there is another election, if Theresa May is overthrown, who knows
:35:30. > :35:33.what could happen, it could change and then we get into a complicated
:35:34. > :35:36.situation because the EU has created a negotiating stance on the basis of
:35:37. > :35:44.what it has heard from Britain so far. We'd better leave it there Mac.
:35:45. > :35:48.Thank you for joining us. If anybody was tired of Brexit because of the
:35:49. > :35:52.complexion news from Brussels, the next 18 months may be a
:35:53. > :35:55.disappointment. Back to you in London.
:35:56. > :35:57.It's been six months since the world's gaze
:35:58. > :36:03.For four brutal years, the people of the Syrian city endured
:36:04. > :36:08.unimaginable horrors as the bitter war between Assad's army
:36:09. > :36:11.and rebel forces played out, pounding the once elegant city
:36:12. > :36:15.The siege eventually ended in December when Syrian forces,
:36:16. > :36:21.Our colleagues at BBC Arabic commissioned four
:36:22. > :36:23.citizen journalists, opposed to Assad, to document
:36:24. > :36:30.Under siege, trapped with 200,000 others,
:36:31. > :36:33.with limited food, water and medicine, they filmed with small
:36:34. > :42:16.cameras and mobile phones as the battle for the city raged.
:42:17. > :42:18.That was part of a BBC Arabic production for
:42:19. > :42:23.You can see the full film, Goodbye, Aleppo, this weekend
:42:24. > :42:47.That's all we have time for - goodnight.
:42:48. > :42:48.Good evening. No doubt about it, the heatwave is over and we aren't