:00:00. > :00:00.Tonight, we reveal how the organisations we trust
:00:07. > :00:10.to maintain standards in the construction industry have
:00:11. > :00:19.The reason why so many high rises have failed to pass fire safety
:00:20. > :00:20.tests in England is that the building industry has been writing
:00:21. > :00:22.rules for itself. We'll hear from the former
:00:23. > :00:39.Housing Minister. Hate you. Oh, come on. Hate you
:00:40. > :00:40.Richard. Why did Anjem Choudhry invite us?
:00:41. > :00:41.Richard Watson's been following the activities
:00:42. > :00:48.of the notorious Islamist group Al-Muhajiroun for the last 16 years.
:00:49. > :00:51.In light of London Bridge, has the state failed to realise how
:00:52. > :00:59.widespread the influence of such groups has been?
:01:00. > :01:05.The figure of 23,000, which has recently been released by MI5, has
:01:06. > :01:08.been people they're concerned about being involved in some way in
:01:09. > :01:11.jihadist activity. It's probably the tip of the iceberg. It is a huge
:01:12. > :01:12.number. And on Harry Potter's
:01:13. > :01:14.20th birthday, we talk to the original book publishers -
:01:15. > :01:25.who replaced Joanne Rowling with JK. For the first six months, until she
:01:26. > :01:31.was interviewed on Blue Peter, so she was revealed as a woman, all the
:01:32. > :01:39.fan mail had been addressed to "dear Sir" Because I opened it.
:01:40. > :01:44.The Government has confirmed today that samples of aluminium panels,
:01:45. > :01:46.from all 75 buildings that had been sent for fire retardancy
:01:47. > :01:55.And tonight, Newsnight can reveal how the organisations tasked
:01:56. > :01:58.with enforcing building regulations are in fact helping contractors
:01:59. > :02:03.The revelations point to a systemic failure of the very structures put
:02:04. > :02:20.So the big thing to understand here is that the Government has written a
:02:21. > :02:26.big set of regulations that cover tall buildings. They've set out one
:02:27. > :02:29.very simple rule really with cladding. Specifically, they said
:02:30. > :02:35.that basically everything you bolt to the outside of a building has to
:02:36. > :02:43.meet basic fire safety tests. They have to be of grade A 2, what A 2
:02:44. > :02:46.means it has to be either limited combustibility or better, not
:02:47. > :02:50.combustible at all. What we found is that the building industry has been
:02:51. > :02:53.writing guide lineds to assist -- guidelines to assist builders as
:02:54. > :02:58.they interpret the rules. The guidelines don't say these are the
:02:59. > :03:01.minimum standards. They often effectively allow you to go beneath
:03:02. > :03:06.the standards. For example, we've revealed tonight in a film you're
:03:07. > :03:10.about to see a problem, a vulnerability in the regulation as
:03:11. > :03:15.rising from the fact that one of the major bodies that enforces building
:03:16. > :03:19.regulations has written a rule set that says - we know the Government
:03:20. > :03:23.says A 2 is the standard of material you're usually required to put on a
:03:24. > :03:27.tall building, you know what, if you use B category cladding and B
:03:28. > :03:31.category insulation, that is to say stuff that is less fire proof than
:03:32. > :03:34.the minimum standard allowed by the Government, that's going to be fine.
:03:35. > :03:38.We'll sign that off. That's quite troubling. Actually, it points to a
:03:39. > :03:42.larger problem. It helps explain why so many of these buildings are now
:03:43. > :03:49.failing fire tests. I've made a film that explains some of these issues
:03:50. > :03:54.more fully. Cladding is starting to come off building across England,
:03:55. > :03:58.because it's not to code. In Islington the external panels of
:03:59. > :04:02.this council owned property are coming down already because they
:04:03. > :04:06.were deemed insufficiently fire proof by an official Government test
:04:07. > :04:12.and they're hardly alone. I can inform the House that as of mid-day
:04:13. > :04:16.today the cladding from 75 high rise buildings in 26 local authority
:04:17. > :04:22.areas has failed the combustibility test. The Government's official
:04:23. > :04:26.building regs lagss are set out in approved document B. That says that
:04:27. > :04:31.inhalation products attached to the outside of buildings more than 18
:04:32. > :04:39.metres tall must meet stringent fire standards, specifically they must be
:04:40. > :04:42.of materials that are non-combustible or limited
:04:43. > :04:46.combustibility. That is what these tests are all about. How then can it
:04:47. > :04:51.be that buildings have been fitted with cladding that doesn't meet that
:04:52. > :04:55.requirement? Building inspectors don't always rely directly on the
:04:56. > :04:58.rules set by the Government. The inspectors, who these days are
:04:59. > :05:02.largely privately employed, use guidelines to the rules written by
:05:03. > :05:07.professional bodies representing the sector. It's been some time since
:05:08. > :05:12.the relevant regulations were updated and the industry has to keep
:05:13. > :05:17.up with changing technology, changing customer demands. It has to
:05:18. > :05:21.turn to its specialists to consultants for advice on these
:05:22. > :05:33.issues because it can't depend on the regulation as loan. These sector
:05:34. > :05:38.You rig up your proposed cladding as it would be used and then see what
:05:39. > :05:43.happens when it's exposed to fire. If the system as a whole performs
:05:44. > :05:48.well, it's signed off. Even if individual parts would fail on their
:05:49. > :05:51.own. So some of the cladding failing tests right now may have been
:05:52. > :05:58.rigorously tested as part of a system. There are, though, rather
:05:59. > :06:02.less rigorous routes. If no actual fire test data exists for a
:06:03. > :06:07.particular system, the client may instead submit a desk top study
:06:08. > :06:10.report from a suitable body stating whether, in their opinion,
:06:11. > :06:15.combustibility criteria would be met. That's guidance from the
:06:16. > :06:19.building control alliance, the BCA, a body representing the great and
:06:20. > :06:24.good of building. Builders can use data from old tests to get
:06:25. > :06:28.combustible signed off in new scenarios without doing further fire
:06:29. > :06:32.tests. This opaque process is a vulnerability in the compliance
:06:33. > :06:38.process. Newsnight has found another weakness in the regulation. This is
:06:39. > :06:42.a piece of guidance from the NHBC, a sector body and a major supplier of
:06:43. > :06:47.building inspectors. What it says is that rather than everything needing
:06:48. > :06:51.to be A 2, you can use B grade cladding and B grade insulation
:06:52. > :06:55.material without even needing a desk top study. That is because, they
:06:56. > :07:00.say, there have been so many desk top studies and so many fire tests.
:07:01. > :07:04.In essence, they've decided that the Government's rules are too strict.
:07:05. > :07:15.NHBC said this guidance was issued...
:07:16. > :07:21.They also stressed that thorough assessments by inspectors haven't
:07:22. > :07:25.allowed the use of plastic cord cladding, such as used at Grenfell,
:07:26. > :07:29.under this guidance. Earlier tonight we learned that one of the
:07:30. > :07:33.insulation products with B grade cladding is actually C grade
:07:34. > :07:38.insulation. That guidance takes us a long way from A 2. Does it much
:07:39. > :07:42.matter legally that builders follow sector guidelines not Government
:07:43. > :07:49.rules? Well, yes. In the event of a civil case, the sector guidelines
:07:50. > :07:53.would matter. Yes, it does, because breach of the regulations would be
:07:54. > :07:58.very strong evidence in a civil claim against a builder. However, in
:07:59. > :08:01.the absence of up to date regulations, in the absence of
:08:02. > :08:06.clarity, then general guidance, compliance with general guidance
:08:07. > :08:11.could be a defence. So the building codes are a mess. And the Government
:08:12. > :08:15.is slow to update its regulations. But had contractors just stuck with
:08:16. > :08:17.them, they would now be pulling less cladding off high rises.
:08:18. > :08:20.David Lammy is the Labour MP for Tottenham.
:08:21. > :08:23.He lost a friend, the artist Khadija, in the fire at Grenfell.
:08:24. > :08:26.He claimed at the weekend that the published estimate of 79
:08:27. > :08:31.deaths in the fire is "far, far too low" and that a failure
:08:32. > :08:34.to provide updates of the true number that died is feeding
:08:35. > :08:36.suspicion of a cover up among survivors and local residents.
:08:37. > :08:39.I asked him earlier if he himself believed the authorities
:08:40. > :08:50.The 79 figure which has now stood for a week does not accord
:08:51. > :08:55.with those who lived down there and say but the survivors...
:08:56. > :09:03.in one flat alone, people say there were up to 40 people gathering
:09:04. > :09:10.There are lists you can use, DWP lists for those on benefits.
:09:11. > :09:14.For the local authority, you can assess how many kids have
:09:15. > :09:17.showed up for school or not showed up for school.
:09:18. > :09:22.You can speak to the mobile phone company.
:09:23. > :09:27.Who's been on their phone at 12 o'clock before the fire started?
:09:28. > :09:30.There are ways in which you can assemble lists
:09:31. > :09:48.When you have tragedies of this kind that could have been prevented...
:09:49. > :09:51.We know from Hillsborough and other affairs in our national life,
:09:52. > :09:53.that governments, local authorities, big corporations, companies,
:09:54. > :09:58.That's why I raised issues around the documentation.
:09:59. > :09:59.Have the police seized documents yet?
:10:00. > :10:04.In this case, we know nothing about whether that's happened.
:10:05. > :10:05.And it doesn't really matter what I think.
:10:06. > :10:08.It matters what people on the ground think.
:10:09. > :10:10.It does matter what you think because you are
:10:11. > :10:16.For example, you have tweeted that dozens of people, residents,
:10:17. > :10:20.saw dozens of people, jump from windows and nobody has
:10:21. > :10:25.Nobody has found more than that outside.
:10:26. > :10:35.Emily, I am being honest about what people have said to me.
:10:36. > :10:46.I was not standing outside of Grenfell Tower, watching my
:10:47. > :10:53.neighbours jump and burn to death but I've heard those people,
:10:54. > :10:55.and we should validate what they are saying.
:10:56. > :10:59.If you're saying I should say nothing, I'm afraid
:11:00. > :11:03.I'm just trying to get to the bottom of whether you actually think
:11:04. > :11:05.it's a cover-up and, if so, why would authorities
:11:06. > :11:10.What people say is if you put the numbers out early,
:11:11. > :11:12.there could be civil unrest, that's what they say.
:11:13. > :11:21.I'm just saying, by repeating it and by tweeting it,
:11:22. > :11:24.you are giving people a sense that that is where you stand -
:11:25. > :11:34.I'm going to walk alongside those people.
:11:35. > :11:38.Do you think that K and C is trying to cover up the numbers?
:11:39. > :11:43.Do you think the police or fire and emergency services are covering
:11:44. > :11:46.up the number of people that jumped out of that tower on that night?
:11:47. > :11:51.People on the ground say they saw more than has been suggested.
:11:52. > :11:54.And do you think the number of dead is not being revealed
:11:55. > :11:57.because you worry it will lead to civil unrest?
:11:58. > :11:59.The truth is, the media cycle is now beginning
:12:00. > :12:07.What people say is, in two, three weeks' time, if you start
:12:08. > :12:11.to reveal the numbers, things have moved on.
:12:12. > :12:14.You could turn round and say, I understand how painful
:12:15. > :12:21.You know better than I do that some of the homes were sublet.
:12:22. > :12:24.Some people have not been as happy to come forward,
:12:25. > :12:26.even if they have survived, even if they know people survived,
:12:27. > :12:30.because they may not have a legal status either in the building
:12:31. > :12:34.This is the sixth richest economy in the world.
:12:35. > :12:37.If we have not assembled the list of the landlords
:12:38. > :12:40.in the building, then what the hell are we capable of doing?
:12:41. > :12:43.If we can't put together a benefits list, a school's list,
:12:44. > :12:46.ask local hospitals, GPs, who also have their list.
:12:47. > :12:48.That's what the Government is trying to do.
:12:49. > :12:50.I've not heard that communication from government.
:12:51. > :12:53.If you have, thanks for enlightening me but I haven't heard it.
:12:54. > :12:56.So, is it that you just need to hear them saying we're doing this now?
:12:57. > :12:58.Presumably that is the work that's going
:12:59. > :13:08.Two major deals were put before the country today:
:13:09. > :13:13.one concerning the UK's relationship with Europe and how Europeans
:13:14. > :13:15.are allowed to settle here after Brexit, the other an act
:13:16. > :13:20.of self-preservation for the Conservative Government itself.
:13:21. > :13:34.Theresa May signed a ?1 billion deal - or ?100 million for each
:13:35. > :13:37.of the ten DUP votes needed for her Government to reach
:13:38. > :13:39.the majority needed to secure its position.
:13:40. > :13:41.The Tories will be hoping this down payment to the whole
:13:42. > :13:45.of Northern Ireland will give them a lifeline now and the chance to get
:13:46. > :13:49.But there's deep unhappiness around many of the UK's nations and regions
:13:50. > :13:52.Our political editor, Nick Watt, is here.
:13:53. > :13:58.The criticism really revolves around two key points. The deal has the
:13:59. > :14:02.potential to destabilise the Northern Ireland peace process. The
:14:03. > :14:07.point you are saying, it runs counter to the settlement dating
:14:08. > :14:10.back to the 1970s, known as the Barnett Formula, designed to ensure
:14:11. > :14:15.fair funding in the four parts of the UK. There have been complaints
:14:16. > :14:20.from Scotland and Wales. On the funding, the UK Government is saying
:14:21. > :14:24.the same called Barnett consequence. The process ensuring the fair
:14:25. > :14:27.funding, that is triggered when extra spending is committed in
:14:28. > :14:33.England. It doesn't happen in reverse. They also say there has
:14:34. > :14:37.always been special funding in exceptional circumstances with parts
:14:38. > :14:41.of the UK. They are saying this process has funded city deals in
:14:42. > :14:46.Scotland and is now being used to build up infrastructure and the NHS
:14:47. > :14:50.in Northern Ireland, which obviously the spending fell behind during the
:14:51. > :14:57.troubles that Sinn Fein has welcomed any extra money for Northern Ireland
:14:58. > :14:59.but Gerry Adams has made very clear that, as far as the peace process is
:15:00. > :15:04.concerned, Sinn Fein will be looking very clear -- carefully to make sure
:15:05. > :15:11.there is nothing going forward that favours the DUP in dealing with the
:15:12. > :15:16.legacy of those Troubles. We also got clarification on the EU citizens
:15:17. > :15:21.still stop some of the details came through. Theresa May outlined what
:15:22. > :15:26.she called a tremendous offer to the EU citizens living in the UK, in the
:15:27. > :15:30.hope of guaranteeing the 1 million UK citizens living in the rest of
:15:31. > :15:34.the EU. We learned those 3 million EU citizens living here will be
:15:35. > :15:39.eligible for settled status which will allow them to enjoys similar
:15:40. > :15:43.rights to which they have now. If they have been in the country for
:15:44. > :15:48.five years and an unspecified cut-off point where they can apply
:15:49. > :15:53.for that status. Not been here for five years they can go on a path to
:15:54. > :15:57.get that status. That will mean having a formal identity card. David
:15:58. > :16:04.Davis campaigned against those the year ago. These will be virtual ID
:16:05. > :16:09.cards with that data stored in a Home Office computer. The EU chief
:16:10. > :16:21.to go shader is not happy for them he says it does not go far enough.
:16:22. > :16:26.He says projection and oversight by the European Court of Justice. That
:16:27. > :16:35.is a step too far for the UK. Trying to work out what the settled status
:16:36. > :16:42.meant. Earlier I spoke to Brandon Lewis, the Immigration Minister.
:16:43. > :16:44.He's the Immigration Minister and previously served as both
:16:45. > :16:46.Housing Minister and Fire Services Minister.
:16:47. > :16:48.I began by asking what "settled status" would mean.
:16:49. > :16:53.Settled status will be lifelong. We are going to bring forward an
:16:54. > :16:58.outline of what the process will be next year. It will be very light
:16:59. > :17:03.touch, probably using digital technology as much as we can. We
:17:04. > :17:09.want to have a very simple system for people. Not being caught up in
:17:10. > :17:16.terms of documents was make it very light touch. Is that you ruling out
:17:17. > :17:21.an ID card system? It is me rolling out an 85 page document. We wanted
:17:22. > :17:32.to be easy, simple and light touch. It could an ID card? It could be. If
:17:33. > :17:38.there are French parents living in London with a daughter studying in
:17:39. > :17:43.Paris, will she be able to join her parents? How much will this extend
:17:44. > :17:48.to family members outside of the UK? It depends when they apply for
:17:49. > :17:52.social status. If the family has been here for five years they can
:17:53. > :17:56.apply for social status and they will have that for life. If they
:17:57. > :18:00.have not been here five years they will have an opportunity to stay
:18:01. > :18:04.here for five years to get it. After that they would broadly have the
:18:05. > :18:12.same rights as a UK citizen. If somebody goes abroad without have to
:18:13. > :18:15.be looked at in light of the immigration rules at that time. Talk
:18:16. > :18:23.to me about the opposition rules on immigration. I is sticking with the
:18:24. > :18:28.tens of thousands? Is that the aim, the objective? We're going to be
:18:29. > :18:32.talking to sectors, from business, agriculture and universities, which
:18:33. > :18:37.I will be doing as was my colleagues across government. We want people
:18:38. > :18:42.here to stay here. That is what the Prime Minister was outlining today,
:18:43. > :18:46.to contribute to our society and economy. We have heard government
:18:47. > :18:51.after government tried to hit tens of thousands. Are you still aiming
:18:52. > :19:01.to get the number under tens of thousands or has that gone? What we
:19:02. > :19:04.have said is we want a level. That is what we want to work towards. We
:19:05. > :19:07.want to get it down to sustainable levels, which we do believe it is
:19:08. > :19:13.tens of thousands. We cannot put a timescale on it because we have not
:19:14. > :19:15.yet left the European Union. In the meantime, work with universities and
:19:16. > :19:22.business sectors across the country and across government has a system
:19:23. > :19:26.that works for everyone. You are of course the housing minister and the
:19:27. > :19:32.fire minister as well. As we think about lessons learned from the
:19:33. > :19:36.Grenfell Tower fire, you said building developers should not be
:19:37. > :19:40.forced to fit sprinklers. Your department declined to bring in
:19:41. > :19:45.regulation forcing them to fit sprinklers. That is not correct. I
:19:46. > :19:50.was not the housing minister at the time of that speech and I am not an
:19:51. > :19:55.expert on building regulations. That speech was when I was the fire
:19:56. > :20:00.minister. That speech was a speech I made in favour of sprinklers. I was
:20:01. > :20:08.outlining the importance of the benefits of sprinklers. I was saying
:20:09. > :20:10.there are a whole range of fire safety measures, our whole range of
:20:11. > :20:13.fire sprinkler systems. It is not for the Government to choose a
:20:14. > :20:18.specific system. Whether it is a social housing owner in a high risk
:20:19. > :20:22.building or a high-rise or a low density buildings to look at what is
:20:23. > :20:27.appropriate. They have the duty of care to people in the building. Did
:20:28. > :20:31.you not say the cost of fitting a sprinkler system may affect
:20:32. > :20:36.house-building, so we must wait to see the impact? I was saying we want
:20:37. > :20:41.to make sure we are building more houses. New-build homes have been
:20:42. > :20:47.increasing over that period of time and have more increasing levels of
:20:48. > :20:51.fire safety. We brought in a requirement to have smoke detectors
:20:52. > :20:53.for private landlords. Is it not conceivable that some of those
:20:54. > :20:58.decisions which came under your departments, either in fire or
:20:59. > :21:03.housing could have been taken very differently? Do not have regrets
:21:04. > :21:07.about the decisions taken? Any of us who have been involved in politics
:21:08. > :21:14.when the buildings were built will be looking at what went wrong at
:21:15. > :21:20.Grenfell Tower. You spoke about regulation. You said an argument
:21:21. > :21:27.from the first government to reduce regulation. Your culture was about
:21:28. > :21:33.cutting red tape. That was the kind of red tape we now see could have
:21:34. > :21:37.saved lives. It is about looking at regulation across government. Not
:21:38. > :21:40.just around these issues. We will all want to learn lessons about what
:21:41. > :21:44.happened at Grenfell Tower. It should not have been allowed to
:21:45. > :21:48.happen. We must get to the bottom of it. Thank you.
:21:49. > :21:51.In the wake of the recent terror attacks in Manchester and London,
:21:52. > :21:54.M15 let it be known that 23,000 people living in the UK
:21:55. > :21:55.have potential links to violent extremism.
:21:56. > :21:58.Now Newsnight has learned this may just be the tip of the iceberg.
:21:59. > :22:01.The former chair of the Cobra Intelligence Group, which advises
:22:02. > :22:03.the Government on intelligence matters, has told this
:22:04. > :22:06.programme that, for years the intelligence community,
:22:07. > :22:09.and successive governments, have been "far too tolerant"
:22:10. > :22:12.in attitudes to extremist groups, in particular the Islamist
:22:13. > :22:19.Newsnight's Richard Watson has been following Al Muhajiroun
:22:20. > :22:22.for 16 years and in this extended film reveals
:22:23. > :22:25.how the group became a crucible of home grown terror,
:22:26. > :22:28.from the 7/7 London bombings, to the recent London Bridge attacks.
:22:29. > :22:37.His report contains some strong language.
:22:38. > :22:40.Three Islamist terror attacks in three months.
:22:41. > :22:44.Five murdered at Westminster Bridge, 22 dead at the Manchester Arena,
:22:45. > :22:53.The security service MI5 has revealed there were 3000 people
:22:54. > :22:57.with current connections to violent, Islamist extremism, and another
:22:58. > :23:06.23,000, it's worth pausing a second to think about that figure.
:23:07. > :23:10.That's the population of a small market town.
:23:11. > :23:13.23,000 potential jihadists in our midst, willing to kill
:23:14. > :23:23.Break the psychology of the occupiers by hitting back
:23:24. > :23:40.Much of the blame falls on this man, the founder of the now notorious
:23:41. > :23:43.Omar Bakri Muhammad created the group in 1996.
:23:44. > :23:45.For 20 years it's poisoned thousands of minds.
:23:46. > :23:47.Support for al-Muhajiroun is often a common thread
:23:48. > :23:50.From the fertiliser bomb conspiracy in 2004,
:23:51. > :23:52.the London bombings of 2005, right through to the recent
:23:53. > :24:08.Using all its own artilleries to suppress...
:24:09. > :24:11.Bakri wound up al-Muhajiroun in 2004, before it was banned.
:24:12. > :24:12.But the network continued under different names.
:24:13. > :24:15.In 2005, this is what one of Bakri's supporters told me
:24:16. > :24:17.about the 7/7 London bombers, just after they'd
:24:18. > :24:29.15 every day in Iraq against the British and Americans.
:24:30. > :24:39.What's shocking for many is that it took place on their own doorsteps.
:24:40. > :24:42.But, hopefully, it will make many wake up and smell the coffee.
:24:43. > :24:45.Colonel Richard Kemp has spent his career fighting terrorism.
:24:46. > :24:49.He chaired the Government's Cobra intelligence group, responsible
:24:50. > :24:52.for briefing government on secret intelligence.
:24:53. > :24:56.He has a very good insight into official thinking
:24:57. > :24:58.about al-Muhajiroun at the highest level and says
:24:59. > :25:13.It was a major failure and we've seen the consequences.
:25:14. > :25:15.We've seen Lee Rigby, who was chopped to pieces
:25:16. > :25:19.We've seen the latest London Bridge bombing led by one of their network.
:25:20. > :25:22.We've seen numerous other murders carried out by their members
:25:23. > :25:23.in different places around the world.
:25:24. > :25:25.The leader of the recent attacks at London Bridge
:25:26. > :25:33.Here he is on TV last year with his jihadi mates.
:25:34. > :25:36.So, why was this group allowed to operate so freely in the UK
:25:37. > :25:42.and do al-Muhajiroun supporters still have potency today?
:25:43. > :25:46.I've been investigating al-Muhajiroun and its supporters
:25:47. > :25:53.for 16 years, since before the 9/11 attacks.
:25:54. > :25:55.I witnessed their hatred of the West, their supremacist world
:25:56. > :26:06.If they saw you in a dark alleyway...
:26:07. > :26:12.If they saw you in a dark alleyway...
:26:13. > :26:20.Here we've been invited to film with the new leader
:26:21. > :26:23.of al-Muhajiroun, Anjem Choudary, who took over from Bakri after he'd
:26:24. > :26:31.Choudary was convicted of terrorism offences last year.
:26:32. > :26:34.In 2007, we tried to interview this man...
:26:35. > :26:40.He was accused in court of providing military supplies
:26:41. > :26:42.for an al-Muhajiroun network in Pakistan, for
:26:43. > :27:09.In 2004, I was invited to attend an al-Muhajiroun meeting in this
:27:10. > :27:16.I was following a British convert to Islam.
:27:17. > :27:20.They knew the cameras were rolling but even then their views on Western
:27:21. > :27:24.The time Blair came out, Bush came out at the same time.
:27:25. > :27:27.He said, you're either with us, or you're either with them.
:27:28. > :27:47.The only other ideological belief which is around now, not a religion.
:27:48. > :27:48.This man, Abu Uzair, an engineering graduate
:27:49. > :27:55.When the two planes magnificently went through those buildings, OK.
:27:56. > :27:58.And people turned round and said, hang on a second, that is barbaric.
:27:59. > :28:10.You described the 9/11 attack, the plane flying
:28:11. > :28:12.into the Twin Towers, and you said it was magnificent.
:28:13. > :28:15.How can you justify that, whether you're a Muslim,
:28:16. > :28:26.If you start the war, we will continue.
:28:27. > :28:28.The actual killing of innocent civilians, it can't be right.
:28:29. > :28:38.According to Islam, it's absolutely right.
:28:39. > :28:41.We understand that Abu Uzair has never faced legal action in the UK.
:28:42. > :28:48.New laws ban the glorification of terrorism and there have been
:28:49. > :28:52.many more successful prosecutions over the last decade.
:28:53. > :28:59.Critics say, from these seeds, domestic terrorism has grown.
:29:00. > :29:04.Our own action in the period before and soon after 9/11
:29:05. > :29:12.was extremely dangerous because, the networks and the individuals
:29:13. > :29:15.involved in them, saw that we were weak.
:29:16. > :29:18.They saw we were wanting to appease them and we wanted
:29:19. > :29:27.They exploited that in terms of developing and building a network
:29:28. > :29:29.which would eventually be turned against us.
:29:30. > :29:32.establishment watched, Bakri Muhammad got on with the job
:29:33. > :29:36.In the late 1990s, the leader of al-Muhajiroun,
:29:37. > :29:38.Omar Bakri Muhammad, targeted Muslims in the unlikely
:29:39. > :29:42.In amongst the well-kept houses and green, leafy streets,
:29:43. > :29:46.he found a ready audience for his narrative of extremism.
:29:47. > :29:50.The idea that the West was at war with Islam.
:29:51. > :29:52.Omar Bakri's extremist network was so poorly
:29:53. > :29:59.understood and unchallenged, that he even managed to get himself
:30:00. > :30:02.invited to talk about Islam to six formers at one of Crawley's
:30:03. > :30:14.At the time, our involvement with him was simply to promote
:30:15. > :30:16.religious tolerance and understanding, and inclusivity.
:30:17. > :30:18.And so we invited him into the school on those grounds.
:30:19. > :30:21.And I will put my hand up now and say that was
:30:22. > :30:34.At the time, I didn't understand what he represented.
:30:35. > :30:35.Meanwhile, critics say the security establishment
:30:36. > :30:41.There was an element of complacency among those people who were
:30:42. > :30:48.That, essentially, I certainly heard words used, like blowhard
:30:49. > :30:50.and windbag in relation to some of these prominent
:30:51. > :30:58.And I think they felt, basically, in some cases, anyway,
:30:59. > :31:00.that we are looking at people who talk a big war,
:31:01. > :31:04.don't actually fight it, and don't pose a really big threat
:31:05. > :31:13.The former head of counterterrorism at the Metropolitan Police,
:31:14. > :31:16.Peter Clark, told me he'd never heard the term, blowhard used,
:31:17. > :31:19.and said the threat was taken very seriously when plots were uncovered
:31:20. > :31:26.The 7/7 London bombings in 2005 they were devastating proof
:31:27. > :31:31.that British jihadis were targeting the UK.
:31:32. > :31:32.The leader, Mohammad Sidique Khan, had links
:31:33. > :31:43.Fast forward to 2017 and the London Bridge attacks.
:31:44. > :31:45.The lead attacker, Khuram Butt, was a committed
:31:46. > :31:55.He trained in a fitness centre in Ilford, East London.
:31:56. > :31:57.CCTV images recorded Khuram Butt and two others
:31:58. > :32:01.meeting outside the gym five days before the attack.
:32:02. > :32:06.OK, we're about to go into the gymnasium here.
:32:07. > :32:11.Newsnight was given exclusive television
:32:12. > :32:20.access to the gym after the police had raided.
:32:21. > :32:22.I'm inside the actual gym, where the leader of London
:32:23. > :32:24.Bridge attackers Khuram Butt trained.
:32:25. > :32:26.He was a long-term supporter of the extremist group
:32:27. > :32:32.We've also linked very firmly this gym to another man
:32:33. > :32:34.called Sajeel Shahid, who's been a leader
:32:35. > :32:41.He's linked to two of the UK's most notorious terrorists, Omar Khayyam,
:32:42. > :32:43.the leader of the fertiliser bomb plot and Mohammed Sadique Khan; the
:32:44. > :32:48.leader of the London bombings on 7/7.
:32:49. > :32:51.From what we saw, the fitness centre looked like a ramshackle
:32:52. > :32:56.Attendance was recorded by hand in this exercise book.
:32:57. > :33:00.The man who appeared to be in charge was
:33:01. > :33:04.known as Abu Ibrahim and that's a pseudonym for Sajeel Shahid.
:33:05. > :33:06.We found out that Sajeel Shahid's name
:33:07. > :33:10.appears on the planning documents from 2011.
:33:11. > :33:13.Sajeel Shahid used to be a key leader in Al-Muhajiroun in the
:33:14. > :33:20.He was one of Bakri Muhammad's most trusted men.
:33:21. > :33:22.To understand his role, we have to go
:33:23. > :33:25.right back to the late 1990s, when Bakri launched a branch of
:33:26. > :33:30.Al-Muhajiroun in Pakistan became a clearing house
:33:31. > :33:40.For Bakri, Pakistan was to be the crucible
:33:41. > :33:45.In September 2001, just after 9/11, an American called Mohammed Junaid
:33:46. > :33:48.I'm willing to kill the American soldiers, if they
:33:49. > :33:50.enter into Afghanistan with their ground troops,
:33:51. > :33:54.I'm willing to kill the Americans and if the Americans
:33:55. > :34:02.use Pakistan soil as its bases, we will kill them here in Pakistan too.
:34:03. > :34:04.Three years later, Junaid Baber became
:34:05. > :34:08.a jihadi super grass, testifying against his old friends.
:34:09. > :34:11.This is the confidential transcript of the FBI's interview with Mohammed
:34:12. > :34:15.On page two it says that Sajeel Shahid was the leader of
:34:16. > :34:19.Much later, a British jihadi source told
:34:20. > :34:21.me more than 200 recruits from Britain flowed
:34:22. > :34:28.On page 72 of the same document, it says that Sajeel Shahid probably
:34:29. > :34:39.coordinated explosives training for recruits in Pakistan.
:34:40. > :34:42.In early 2003 the jihadi supergrass said that he and Sajeel Shahid
:34:43. > :34:44.travelled to Pakistan's north-west frontier looking for a place
:34:45. > :34:46.to train recruits with guns and explosives.
:34:47. > :34:51.They found an ideal camp near the town of Malakand.
:34:52. > :34:53.Mohammad Sidique Khan the future leader of the London
:34:54. > :35:02.So did Omar Khayyam, the future leader of the fertiliser bomb plot.
:35:03. > :35:05.Several years later, I traced Sajeel Shahid to an Islamic
:35:06. > :35:08.exhibition in London, where he had a stall.
:35:09. > :35:11.I wanted to ask him about the training camp
:35:12. > :35:18.Richard Watson from BBC Newsnight here.
:35:19. > :35:20.We've been trying to contact you to ask questions.
:35:21. > :35:23.The question we want to ask you really, were you involved
:35:24. > :35:30.You're a leader of Al-Muhajiroun, weren't you?
:35:31. > :35:35.You were, it's clearly on your website?
:35:36. > :35:38.Were you helping terrorist suspects in Pakistan?
:35:39. > :35:40.Were you leading Al-Muhajiroun in Pakistan.
:35:41. > :35:42.We're told you were leading Al-Muhajiroun
:35:43. > :35:50.So Al-Muhajiroun and its successor groups prospered in the UK right up
:35:51. > :35:59.Well, Islamist extremist networks are very well established and it's
:36:00. > :36:02.been made far worse by support for the so-called Islamic State.
:36:03. > :36:05.Has the failure to grasp the nettle early enough left the UK
:36:06. > :36:13.I think the figure of 23,000, which has recently been released
:36:14. > :36:16.by MI5, as being people they're concerned about being involved
:36:17. > :36:25.in some way in jihadist activity is probably the tip of the iceberg.
:36:26. > :36:28.Many of the idealogical extremists featured in this film were later
:36:29. > :36:36.Others like Sajeel Shahid have never been charged with any offence.
:36:37. > :36:39.There's no suggestion that he had a hand in directing the attack
:36:40. > :36:42.but in an ideological sense it does connect the present threat
:36:43. > :36:47.with the old extremist network of Al-Muhajiroun.
:36:48. > :36:50.And this network tolerated for so many years is part
:36:51. > :36:52.of the story behind the unprecedented Islamist terror
:36:53. > :37:05.Richard Watson there on the ideology behind the London Bridge bombers.
:37:06. > :37:08.Once upon a time, there was a little boy who lived
:37:09. > :37:11.in a cupboard under the stairs, in a book no-one had seen.
:37:12. > :37:13.His author once commented that had it not been
:37:14. > :37:15.for her publisher, Barry Cunningham, he would have stayed
:37:16. > :37:20.That author was JK Rowling, that boy was Harry Potter,
:37:21. > :37:23.and this evening, I spoke to Mr Cunningham and Rosamund de
:37:24. > :37:25.La Hey, who were both instrumental in getting it into print,
:37:26. > :37:40.You're a wizard, Harry. I'm a what? A wizard and a thumping good one I
:37:41. > :37:47.wager, once you've trained up a little. No, you've made a mistake, I
:37:48. > :37:57.mean, I can't be a wizard. I mean, I'm just... Harry. You have to
:37:58. > :38:01.consult the inner child. We have very good inner children. We consult
:38:02. > :38:05.at children we were to make our decisions. You had a special way of
:38:06. > :38:11.wanting to get everyone to read it. Well, yes. Someone told me that you
:38:12. > :38:14.have to get editors' attention because they're deluged by endless
:38:15. > :38:17.material before an editorial meeting. I wanted to make it
:38:18. > :38:23.different. We wrapped it up in a tube and stuff today with smarties
:38:24. > :38:26.and made it look like an academic scroll so it would spill on the desk
:38:27. > :38:30.and they'd have to pay attention and hopefully read a bit at least. Isn't
:38:31. > :38:34.it funny now to think, it was famously turned down. What do you
:38:35. > :38:40.think other publishers didn't get? What was scary about it? Well, it's
:38:41. > :38:44.interesting because when I got it I didn't know that everybody else in
:38:45. > :38:49.the universe had turned it down. With the boarding school setting,
:38:50. > :38:55.just everything made it feel like it was perhaps too 1950s to the current
:38:56. > :39:02.Goose bumps and Babysitters trend now. What you look for in an author
:39:03. > :39:06.is someone who cares and is obsessed with everything to do with their
:39:07. > :39:10.creation, just like their readers will be hopefully. She was totally
:39:11. > :39:14.obsessed with Harry and his world. We took the big risk alongside her
:39:15. > :39:19.with having Harry grow up with every book. I had a meeting with her and
:39:20. > :39:22.famously said that, you know, all the stories about her of course are
:39:23. > :39:25.true, she was a single mum. I said that she needed to get a day job
:39:26. > :39:28.because she wouldn't make any money out of children's books. Is it true
:39:29. > :39:35.she was encouraged to keep the initials so that it didn't put off
:39:36. > :39:40.boy readers? We have a revelation between us tonight, because people
:39:41. > :39:44.always said it was my fault. I cannot remember ever advising her.
:39:45. > :39:49.Tonight, we were talking, and Roz has a big admission. Really
:39:50. > :39:54.initially the very first cover was proofed saying Joanne, at the time
:39:55. > :39:58.Jacqueline Wilson, still is, riding high. She was probably the biggest
:39:59. > :40:02.name in kids' books at the time. Her name being Jacqueline felt too close
:40:03. > :40:07.to Joanne and made me think her market is a female readership, a
:40:08. > :40:11.young girl readership. I would only say it's quite interesting the proof
:40:12. > :40:14.I have to say, I think, is in the pudding in the sense that for the
:40:15. > :40:17.six months, until she was interviewed on Blue Peter, in
:40:18. > :40:23.November, I think it was that year, when she won the smarties prize, she
:40:24. > :40:27.was revealed as a woman. All the fan mail had been addressed to "Dear,
:40:28. > :40:31.Sir." I opened it, it definitely was. Do you ever wonder what would
:40:32. > :40:37.have happened if you had missed, if you had passed it on? Do you have
:40:38. > :40:41.the middle of the night, thank God we got it? Jo said if I turned it
:40:42. > :40:46.down, I was almost the last stop for Harry. What a thought! It would
:40:47. > :40:52.maybe never have happened. All those parents, grandparents, adults and
:40:53. > :40:58.all the generations, you know, wouldn't have enjoyed the phenomenon
:40:59. > :41:12.that is Harry Potter. Well if you're sure... Better be... Griffin corps!
:41:13. > :41:15.That is all -- Griffyndor! That's all for tonight, Evan is back
:41:16. > :41:24.tomorrow. From all of us, very good night.
:41:25. > :41:25.Hello there. Plenty of rain in the forecast for this