:00:07. > :00:08.She thinks she can remain PM for two years.
:00:09. > :00:11.Some senior Tories think she should be gone in two days.
:00:12. > :00:15.What future is there for Theresa May?
:00:16. > :00:17.The Government is not exactly falling apart,
:00:18. > :00:19.but it is looking worn at the edges, with disparate views
:00:20. > :00:25.Bad news for the PM - the Tories will make party
:00:26. > :00:33.We need to have a new leader in place by the time
:00:34. > :00:35.that the Conservative Party goes into the next election.
:00:36. > :00:37.It's possible to imagine Theresa May being Prime Minister
:00:38. > :00:42.What we need at the moment is somebody who is resolute
:00:43. > :00:45.and carries on, has an element of stubbornness within her.
:00:46. > :00:54.That seems to me to be the leader that we've got.
:00:55. > :00:57.We'll ask the Brexit Minister, who was dropped from Government two
:00:58. > :01:01.Also tonight, 28 years on, there are criminal charges
:01:02. > :01:06.In the aftermath of Grenfell, have we now tested enough insulation
:01:07. > :01:08.and cladding to know we need to rip it all off?
:01:09. > :01:12.We ask the Chairman of the National Housing Federation
:01:13. > :01:15.if waiting for test results is now just an obstacle to
:01:16. > :01:25."You're a very small bear," said Mrs Brown.
:01:26. > :01:30."I'm not really supposed to be here at all.
:01:31. > :01:44.We bid farewell to the creator of Paddington, Michael Bond.
:01:45. > :01:48.The Government won an important vote in the Commons tonight,
:01:49. > :01:51.defeating a Labour amendment to the Queen's Speech.
:01:52. > :01:54.It should also win the final vote on that Queen's Speech tomorrow.
:01:55. > :01:56.So it will then have shown it can survive.
:01:57. > :02:03.In the last 24 hours or so, we've seen raggedness of thought
:02:04. > :02:08.We thought the goals for this government were to deliver Brexit
:02:09. > :02:10.and reduce the deficit, but unity on both those looks
:02:11. > :02:15.Chancellor Philip Hammond made a thinly-veiled joke at the expense
:02:16. > :02:17.of Boris Johnson last night, and appeared at odds
:02:18. > :02:20.with David Davis over transitional Brexit arrangements.
:02:21. > :02:22.And more confusion today on austerity.
:02:23. > :02:26.There were hints that the public sector pay cap would be dropped,
:02:27. > :02:32.and then those hints were played down later on.
:02:33. > :02:34.When a teacher loses control of a class, it's
:02:35. > :02:38.Is that where Mrs May finds herself at the dawn of this parliament?
:02:39. > :02:42.Well, Nick Watt, our political editor, is with me.
:02:43. > :02:50.First, there is public sector pay staff and the morning story was one
:02:51. > :02:55.thing, it changed this afternoon, what was going on behind-the-scenes?
:02:56. > :02:59.It is welcome to our new minority government and newly assertive
:03:00. > :03:03.Chancellor of the etched so we can watch Cabinet rows in technicolour!
:03:04. > :03:07.We had Michael Fallon, Jeremy Hunt and Chris Grayling say the
:03:08. > :03:13.Government is listening to the electorate and the time has come to
:03:14. > :03:17.take a look at the public sector 1% pay cap imposed in 2012. Downing
:03:18. > :03:23.Street backed them until Philip Hammond insisted there was no change
:03:24. > :03:27.and the cap would last until 2020. I understand Philip Hammond has said
:03:28. > :03:32.the colleagues if there is a fiscal announcement, that is my job. And a
:03:33. > :03:38.?4.1 billion commitments to increase public sector pay in line with
:03:39. > :03:41.inflation, that would need a funding stream. These three Cabinet
:03:42. > :03:47.ministers do not have a history of freelancing and I understand they
:03:48. > :03:50.are saying to the Chancellor, we thought we were echoing your
:03:51. > :03:54.comments when you said a couple of weeks ago you were not deaf to
:03:55. > :03:58.concerns about austerity. That is one argument. Where does this leave
:03:59. > :04:01.the Government, or more specifically, we are at the
:04:02. > :04:05.beginning of this Parliament, where does it leave Theresa May and her
:04:06. > :04:11.government? As you said, we have had senior ministers at odds on two
:04:12. > :04:14.consecutive days, and two defining issues of this government, fiscal
:04:15. > :04:20.policy and Brexit. The diplomatic way to look at this is, as one
:04:21. > :04:24.Westminster figure said, this is reflective of a government finding
:04:25. > :04:30.its way. But can a wounded Prime Minister assert her authority over
:04:31. > :04:35.Cabinet, or will she be buffeted around as her weakness means
:04:36. > :04:41.traditional Cabinet squabbles play out in the Open? Downing Street
:04:42. > :04:45.hopes its likely success in the main Queen's Speech vote tomorrow will
:04:46. > :04:48.put this government and Theresa May on a firm footing. So I had been
:04:49. > :04:54.looking to see whether that's Number 10 calculation really will play out.
:04:55. > :04:58.Enfeebled by her surprise electoral setback, the Prime Minister has lost
:04:59. > :05:02.that most precious political weapon - control of timing.
:05:03. > :05:05.In the three weeks since polling day, Theresa May has watched
:05:06. > :05:13.as a mere spectator while the clock has ticked down on her premiership.
:05:14. > :05:19.The likely passage of the Queen's Speech tomorrow will give
:05:20. > :05:22.Theresa May her first opportunity since the election to resume some
:05:23. > :05:26.Allies have told Newsnight that, having secured the Tory grip
:05:27. > :05:29.on Number 10, the Prime Minister will seek to remain in Downing
:05:30. > :05:37.Street for at least two years, the duration of the Brexit talks.
:05:38. > :05:42.But one former Cabinet minister believes Theresa May should stand
:05:43. > :05:48.down by the time of the next election, if not before.
:05:49. > :05:51.It is widely accepted, as I say, across the Conservative Party,
:05:52. > :05:54.that we need to have a new leader in place by the time
:05:55. > :05:56.that the Conservative Party goes into the next election.
:05:57. > :05:59.A leading Brexit supporter believes Theresa May could yet
:06:00. > :06:12.Being Prime Minister, in tenancy terms, is an assured shorthold,
:06:13. > :06:22.Some Prime Mnisters who look incredibly strong
:06:23. > :06:24.and will go on forever are gone quite quickly.
:06:25. > :06:27.If you take David Cameron in August 2015, you thought he could be
:06:28. > :06:29.there for years and he is gone within 12 months.
:06:30. > :06:32.If you take Margaret Thatcher in 1981, everyone is conspiring
:06:33. > :06:35.to get rid of her and then the Falklands comes along and she's
:06:36. > :06:40.With Mrs May, it's very hard to tell, but she could be
:06:41. > :06:42.there longer than people are currently speculating.
:06:43. > :06:44.With the DUP, there is the basis of a parliamentary majority.
:06:45. > :06:49.Tory MPs don't want an election, the DUP doesn't want an election,
:06:50. > :06:53.a lot of backbench Labour MPs don't much want an election either.
:06:54. > :06:59.In private, Cabinet Ministers agree with the Prime Minister that she has
:07:00. > :07:02.the right to see the Brexit talks through, though they wonder
:07:03. > :07:04.whether she has the stomach for a relentless fight in Parliament.
:07:05. > :07:07.Other Tories say that the successful passage of the Queen's Speech
:07:08. > :07:09.will allow them to ask difficult questions about her future
:07:10. > :07:13.They say that the length of her tenure in Downing Street
:07:14. > :07:15.will depend on the answers to three questions.
:07:16. > :07:17.In the first place, does she have the authority to see
:07:18. > :07:24.Secondly, is there a credible alternative?
:07:25. > :07:30.And the final question is, can she rise again like a phoenix?
:07:31. > :07:33.Nicky Morgan believes the Brexit timetable points to a natural
:07:34. > :07:37.handover of power around the autumn of next year.
:07:38. > :07:40.Once that shape of Brexit is concluded, once those deals
:07:41. > :07:42.are very much on the table, the Conservative Party must not
:07:43. > :07:44.miss the opportunity at that stage to think
:07:45. > :07:48.about who we want to be our future leader.
:07:49. > :07:51.That's interesting because essentially, the position is,
:07:52. > :07:55.the Barnier position is that the deal should be
:07:56. > :08:00.on the table by basically October 2018, so you can allow for that
:08:01. > :08:04.So it could well be around that stage,
:08:05. > :08:06.towards the end of 2018, that the Conservative Party
:08:07. > :08:08.needs to think about who its leader should be.
:08:09. > :08:10.I think that's probably right, that's certainly one timetable.
:08:11. > :08:14.Of course, I think one of the things that the last couple of years have
:08:15. > :08:16.shown is that making predictions about British politics,
:08:17. > :08:17.or international politics, is incredibly difficult
:08:18. > :08:21.But I think the point is that the Conservative Party,
:08:22. > :08:29.having started on the Brexit road, really is going to own
:08:30. > :08:36.the negotiations, is going to own the shape
:08:37. > :08:38.of Brexit, and that's clearly going to be something that will,
:08:39. > :08:42.if not be the issue of the next election, will be something that
:08:43. > :08:44.we'll be standing on that record in terms of the party
:08:45. > :08:48.One Tory, who was a surprise loser in the election,
:08:49. > :08:50.thinks Theresa May will need to change her ways to survive.
:08:51. > :08:53.We will need a leader who can articulate a vision
:08:54. > :08:57.about where Britain is and where it needs to be in the next ten years.
:08:58. > :09:05.And I think Theresa is an excellent operator in many, many ways,
:09:06. > :09:11.but she has got to change her style in terms of setting out an agenda,
:09:12. > :09:14.talking about a vision and connecting with people.
:09:15. > :09:16.If she does not do that, I think there may well
:09:17. > :09:20.One Tory grandee told me simply, Theresa May is finished
:09:21. > :09:23.She has no authority to conduct the Brexit negotiations
:09:24. > :09:26.and she should announce immediately after the passage of the Queen's
:09:27. > :09:28.Speech tomorrow night that she is allowing for an orderly
:09:29. > :09:34.But one Cabinet Minister who is aware of the Prime Minister's
:09:35. > :09:37.flaws says that she is slowly building up her credibility around
:09:38. > :09:47.Theresa May is helped by strong backing from Brexiteers.
:09:48. > :09:52.One leading figure insists he supports her on merit.
:09:53. > :09:54.Very often, our strengths and our weaknesses are two
:09:55. > :10:04.Theresa May is strong and stable, or she is a rude
:10:05. > :10:14.And if you are looking at her strengths, she is strong and stable,
:10:15. > :10:16.if you are an opponent, she is, expletive, difficult woman.
:10:17. > :10:18.And that is exactly the same personality type.
:10:19. > :10:21.What we need at the moment is somebody who is resolute
:10:22. > :10:26.and carries on, has an element of stubbornness within her.
:10:27. > :10:28.That seems to me to be the leader that we've got.
:10:29. > :10:30.Jacob Rees-Mogg believes the talk of an early leadership
:10:31. > :10:38.I don't think anything is actually happening.
:10:39. > :10:41.None of these figures has tapped me on the shoulder,
:10:42. > :10:43.nor have their agents, and said, why don't you back
:10:44. > :10:45.so and so, Snodgrass Minor, for the leadership?
:10:46. > :10:48.A beneficiary of the troubled Tory campaign offers some advice
:10:49. > :10:57.She won't last as Prime Minister if she cannot build agreement
:10:58. > :11:01.She won't, because people are very clear from what they heard
:11:02. > :11:03.from their constituents, that a change in approach is needed.
:11:04. > :11:06.And she really does need to understand what happened
:11:07. > :11:07.during the election, drop those slogans, focus
:11:08. > :11:17.on the same Brexit, and build across party divides.
:11:18. > :11:19.By tomorrow night, Theresa May will have consolidated her hold
:11:20. > :11:21.over Downing Street, giving her greater control over
:11:22. > :11:31.But a sense that the countdown to her own exit has slowed may,
:11:32. > :11:40.ironically, embolden Tory critics to speak out.
:11:41. > :11:43.I'm joined now by Conservative MP David Jones, who was,
:11:44. > :11:45.until very recently, the Minister of State
:11:46. > :11:56.Good evening. How long do you give Theresa May? Well, I think we have
:11:57. > :12:01.to acknowledge that it was a difficult election campaign, we did
:12:02. > :12:04.not do as well as we wanted. But I think most MPs were very impressed
:12:05. > :12:09.by what she did immediately after, she came to the 1922 committee and
:12:10. > :12:12.she acknowledged there had been mistakes, she put her hands up to
:12:13. > :12:16.it, and she got a great deal of support from everybody present in
:12:17. > :12:19.the room. And I think that slowly but surely, she is building up her
:12:20. > :12:24.credibility with the party and she has got quite a long time ahead of
:12:25. > :12:27.her. You say building up the credibility but today, the first
:12:28. > :12:32.vote in Parliament, a vote on a Labour amendment to get rid of the
:12:33. > :12:37.public sector 1% pay cap. You voted against the Labour amendment and the
:12:38. > :12:41.morning briefing was you would get rid of the cap and this afternoon,
:12:42. > :12:47.it you retreated on the change on policy. It was like complete
:12:48. > :12:50.confusion. Can the next days of this Parliament carry on like that? I
:12:51. > :12:56.have to acknowledge today was not one of the best days. Looking at
:12:57. > :13:02.what has happened over the last two weeks, I have seen Theresa May
:13:03. > :13:08.stabilising the ship. Sorry, stabilising the ship? Since the
:13:09. > :13:11.election, which was a disaster, Grenfell Tower, she had to apologise
:13:12. > :13:16.to the nation for the reaction to that. And today, complete confusion
:13:17. > :13:21.over policy. It has been a very difficult time, I do not do neither.
:13:22. > :13:24.You said she is building up her credibility. Yes, at the end of the
:13:25. > :13:29.election campaign, that credibility was very low and the entire party's
:13:30. > :13:35.credibility was low. I do not detect an appetite within the party to see
:13:36. > :13:39.her go. Would you describe your oldest department, the department
:13:40. > :13:43.you were dropped from, would you describe that as chaos? No, I would
:13:44. > :13:50.not. I would say it is an extremely flexible Department and it has an
:13:51. > :13:54.extremely strong team of officials prepared for the negotiations. He
:13:55. > :13:58.were dropped and another resigned five days before the negotiations
:13:59. > :14:03.started, that is madness! I'm not second-guessing the Prime Minister.
:14:04. > :14:07.I just said, I am not second-guessing why the Prime
:14:08. > :14:11.Minister decided to dispense of my services. Any politician who takes
:14:12. > :14:16.an admin is the aerial role when he is appointed he has that much closer
:14:17. > :14:23.to leaving -- who takes up an ad ministerial role. We lost two people
:14:24. > :14:27.who would be negotiating and has the brink in people who had five days
:14:28. > :14:32.notice to meet Michel Barnier. Two competent people who will do and
:14:33. > :14:38.extremely good job, backed up by a strong team of officials and led by
:14:39. > :14:42.the very competent state with Davis. Do you think David Davis and Philip
:14:43. > :14:46.Hammond can both stay in post for the next two years and agree
:14:47. > :14:51.something? Yes, and quite contrary to reports in the day's newspapers,
:14:52. > :14:55.they work very closely indeed and have regular meetings and
:14:56. > :15:00.discussions. The reports today have been overblown and it is a
:15:01. > :15:05.difference of emphasis. And I think they are working extremely closely
:15:06. > :15:10.and very effectively together. What is the difference of emphasis? This
:15:11. > :15:14.morning, there was a suggestion that Hammond wanted us to remain in the
:15:15. > :15:21.customs union and David Davis saying not. An emphasis! It is, they both
:15:22. > :15:24.agree we will have to be out of the customs union and the single market
:15:25. > :15:27.by the end of this Parliament, in five years' time.
:15:28. > :15:34.Even though you were dropped from the government, you are behaving on
:15:35. > :15:37.and being rude to them in a very loyal way and you clearly think
:15:38. > :15:43.Theresa May should stick it out for quite a while, you're basically with
:15:44. > :15:47.the party on of this. In a way it seems like the leadership issue has
:15:48. > :15:54.become a proxy for the Brexit issue. Listening to Nicky Morgan thinking
:15:55. > :15:58.that the clock is ticking on Theresa May and Jacob Rees-Mogg saying she
:15:59. > :16:03.is the right person but is it not the case that Brexiteers are putting
:16:04. > :16:07.their faith in Theresa May, soft Brexiteers or Remainers are saying
:16:08. > :16:11.we might need to get rid of her. I think there is no doubt that Brexit
:16:12. > :16:16.is going to be the defining issue of this Parliament and we only have a
:16:17. > :16:20.very limited timetable to work through, one year and nine months.
:16:21. > :16:23.What we cannot afford if the indulgence of talking about
:16:24. > :16:27.alternative leaders come in place somebody else for someone who I
:16:28. > :16:31.think we'll do a very good job and will lead the country to these
:16:32. > :16:35.negotiations effectively. You're making my point, the Brexiteers
:16:36. > :16:39.clearly have more faith in her than any one else. You say this is no
:16:40. > :16:44.time for indulgence but it is surely the time for people to discuss and
:16:45. > :16:47.express their concern over the Theresa May plan for Brexit which
:16:48. > :16:53.Clooney did not grab the population in the election. I don't think it
:16:54. > :16:58.was that. -- clearly did not grab. I think the big issues were non-Brexit
:16:59. > :17:03.issues, most clearly social care but others as well. As far as Brexit is
:17:04. > :17:06.concerned we are now in a position where 80% of the electorate of this
:17:07. > :17:12.country voted for parties who want to take Britain out of the EU. What
:17:13. > :17:17.planet are you on? Loads of swing voters who might have voted Tory
:17:18. > :17:21.voted for Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party because they so detested the
:17:22. > :17:28.Theresa May version of Brexit. I don't see how you can possibly read
:17:29. > :17:31.that into the election result. The polls show, and I know we don't put
:17:32. > :17:36.a huge amount of weight on them, but that more people did not like her
:17:37. > :17:41.version of Brexit than did. You can't say that anybody who voted
:17:42. > :17:48.Labour was endorsing her version of Brexit. We have already set
:17:49. > :17:52.ourselves on the course for leaving the European Union. You were saying
:17:53. > :17:56.that if somebody voted Labour they were effectively endorsing Theresa
:17:57. > :18:01.May's Brexit and that is completely untrue, it was a protest against her
:18:02. > :18:06.Brexit. I don't see how you can read that into it. They put they would
:18:07. > :18:08.get a softer Brexit from Labour and stay in the customs union
:18:09. > :18:13.potentially because they thought it was bonkers to leave. I think that
:18:14. > :18:16.is a complete misreading of the election. Do you accept polls that
:18:17. > :18:20.show more people believe that Theresa May's Brexit should be
:18:21. > :18:26.amended than support it? Her Brexit is clear and that is to leave the EU
:18:27. > :18:28.but to seek the best possible relationship with it in terms of
:18:29. > :18:32.free trade agreement and access to the single market. All those MPs
:18:33. > :18:41.have been honest about their views on the situation, let the MPs vote
:18:42. > :18:45.on which Brexit they want. Forgive me but we have already agreed and
:18:46. > :18:49.decided to leave the European Union. There are multiple ways of leaving,
:18:50. > :18:53.it doesn't have to be the way you want. The weight of leaving are
:18:54. > :18:58.specified in Article 50 of that is the process we are going through --
:18:59. > :19:02.the ways of leaving. Are you saying there is literally only one way of
:19:03. > :19:06.leaving the EU, there are no choices in that at all? The choice has been
:19:07. > :19:10.made, we have served the notice under Article 50 and we are on our
:19:11. > :19:15.way out of the European Union. What we're doing is attempting to seek
:19:16. > :19:19.the best possible relationship with the European Union after we have
:19:20. > :19:23.left. And I think that is something that is shared by members of parties
:19:24. > :19:27.on both sides of the house. David Jones, thank you very much.
:19:28. > :19:29.The police today admitted that the final death toll
:19:30. > :19:32.from the Grenfell Tower fire will not be known until at least
:19:33. > :19:35.80 people are so far known or presumed to have
:19:36. > :19:39.Now, of course, as a response to that horror, the authorities have
:19:40. > :19:42.been testing the cladding on many buildings similar to Grenfell.
:19:43. > :19:44.The important finding is that all have been found unfit.
:19:45. > :19:50.Given that, is it time to stop testing and just get
:19:51. > :19:53.on with the removal of cladding from buildings at risk?
:19:54. > :19:56.That is the view of the National Housing Federation, which represents
:19:57. > :20:02.Social housing has been particularly badly affected.
:20:03. > :20:06.David Orr is the Chief Executive of the federation.
:20:07. > :20:15.Good evening. What would be the case. In the testing programme now?
:20:16. > :20:22.Our first priority is to ensure that people feel safe and secure at home.
:20:23. > :20:27.Many people don't feel that and, having had 120 different tests from
:20:28. > :20:31.different samples from different buildings in different parts of the
:20:32. > :20:35.country, I think we can now say that, according to the tests that
:20:36. > :20:40.the government is carrying out, this cladding is not fit for purpose. We
:20:41. > :20:43.don't need to test any more of it and frankly nobody living in a
:20:44. > :20:48.property that has this cladding is going to feel comfortable because of
:20:49. > :20:50.these results. There is a lot of time and energy going into moving
:20:51. > :20:58.kit and equipment around the country to do the tests but let's not do
:20:59. > :21:01.that, let's take a step back and prioritise exactly what we do to
:21:02. > :21:04.make people safe and secure at home. Is it necessarily the case that the
:21:05. > :21:12.building that has that cladding on it is unsafe or is it possible that
:21:13. > :21:17.the cladding can be constructive in a way that is safer or the building
:21:18. > :21:21.can be fire safe in other ways despite it? It is possible for
:21:22. > :21:26.buildings to be safe even with that cladding in certain circumstances
:21:27. > :21:31.but in a way that is no longer the point. The point is that government
:21:32. > :21:38.had initiated this testing regime, every single sample has failed,
:21:39. > :21:42.so... We're not learning anything. No and this cladding is no longer
:21:43. > :21:45.the answer. So your priority might be buildings that might have one
:21:46. > :21:49.staircase and no sprinklers and you would start with those, get the
:21:50. > :21:54.cladding off and down the line... In a way this is not an issue about
:21:55. > :22:01.housing it is about cladding and how people feel about it. We have
:22:02. > :22:06.cladding on all kinds of places, hospitals, prisons, schools, student
:22:07. > :22:11.housing private sector, social housing, across-the-board, and
:22:12. > :22:15.people need to feel reassured. At the moment activity is happening
:22:16. > :22:21.immediately following a test that we need to take a step back. This is a
:22:22. > :22:24.major systemic failure. All of the claddings had been fitted according
:22:25. > :22:29.to the ruled that were in place at the time, according to the regime
:22:30. > :22:33.presided over by government. We now have government saying, according to
:22:34. > :22:38.these tests its not safe so we had to prioritise which are the least
:22:39. > :22:45.safe, where we take action and the government has too paid for it. That
:22:46. > :22:52.is a very important thing. -- has Depay for it. -- has to pay for it.
:22:53. > :22:57.You are pointing the finger back at government. Are you clear in your
:22:58. > :23:02.head whether this cladding was specified by engineers in breach of
:23:03. > :23:05.regulations, whether it was allowed by regulations, or whether it was
:23:06. > :23:12.not specified by engineers but was simply put a bike contractors saving
:23:13. > :23:17.a bob or two. But I'm clear about is that anybody who is commissioning a
:23:18. > :23:21.new building or these kinds of regeneration projects have to go
:23:22. > :23:25.through a whole process of safety, through planning, building control,
:23:26. > :23:29.and there are experts at each stage, architects in the design of the
:23:30. > :23:32.design, designers and by people who have to say it is safe, building
:23:33. > :23:38.control that has to give its consent. At some point a pass mark
:23:39. > :23:41.has been stamped to allow these buildings to be fitted with this
:23:42. > :23:48.cladding. If that regime is no longer fit for purpose, there is an
:23:49. > :23:53.urgent necessity for us to know what in future we will regard as being
:23:54. > :23:58.safe so that we can equip all of these buildings and make them safe.
:23:59. > :24:05.And in terms of cost, the government is talking about 600 buildings,
:24:06. > :24:08.assuming they all need doing, it is a couple of million pounds to put
:24:09. > :24:13.the cladding on Grenfell and you're talking about a billion or... A very
:24:14. > :24:16.substantial sum of money which should not have to be paid by the
:24:17. > :24:23.remaining residents. Thank you very much. On the subject of Grenfell,
:24:24. > :24:26.the Times is reporting tonight that the Prime Minister has found a
:24:27. > :24:33.person to chair the public enquiry into the Grenfell fire. You have
:24:34. > :24:37.been checking this story out. That's right, an important story and I have
:24:38. > :24:43.had it confirmed that we will have a written ministerial statement
:24:44. > :24:47.tomorrow that a recently retired Lord Chief Justice of Appeal will be
:24:48. > :24:53.appointed as chairman of the Grenfell Tower inquiry. The Times is
:24:54. > :24:59.reporting he is an immensely responded figure in legal circles
:25:00. > :25:02.but it suggest there has been a hold-up in the appointment because
:25:03. > :25:07.of concerns of a rolling when he upheld in favour of Westminster City
:25:08. > :25:13.Council in dispute with a single mother of five who refused to be
:25:14. > :25:18.rehoused in Milton Keynes and this woman's lawyers said the ruling set
:25:19. > :25:20.a terrible precedent for local authorities to engage in social
:25:21. > :25:27.cleansing of the poor on a mass scale. It would not surprise me if
:25:28. > :25:31.tomorrow we hear ministers saying that this appointment was made on
:25:32. > :25:36.the recommendation of the Lord Chief Justice because of course Theresa
:25:37. > :25:43.May as Home Secretary had experience of setting up an enquiry into child
:25:44. > :25:44.abuse, when the chair do not command the confidence of victims. Thank
:25:45. > :25:48.you. 28 years after it happened,
:25:49. > :25:50.criminal charges have been levelled against six people in relation
:25:51. > :25:53.to the disaster at the Hillsborough The charges relate both
:25:54. > :25:59.to the causes of the disaster itself, and also to conduct
:26:00. > :26:02.of various of the accused Peter Marshall was at
:26:03. > :26:07.Hillsborough that day in 1989. He was working for Newsnight
:26:08. > :26:10.at the time and has made award-winning documentaries
:26:11. > :26:19.on the disaster since. This is a very important day for the
:26:20. > :26:27.families. It is and I have been checking on my cutlet and it is
:26:28. > :26:31.10,300 days since the horrors of Hillsborough for those families and
:26:32. > :26:35.the traumatised survivors -- I have been checking on my calculator. At
:26:36. > :26:40.last they have some individuals charged so this is a big day. There
:26:41. > :26:43.is some measure of satisfaction but this abutment that the charges do
:26:44. > :26:47.not go further and there are not more senior, Junior officers and
:26:48. > :26:50.civilians judge but the CBS have pointed out they are hamstrung
:26:51. > :26:55.because you can't charge organisations like Sheffield
:26:56. > :26:57.Wednesday football club or the South Yorkshire Ambulance Service, because
:26:58. > :27:00.they have been entirely reconstituted and different
:27:01. > :27:03.organisations now to what they were then so there is no legal line of
:27:04. > :27:07.responsible the remaining. Hillsborough was a long time ago,
:27:08. > :27:10.three decades of tortuous struggle to get here.
:27:11. > :27:16.56,000 people are at Hillsborough, Sheffield, for a FA Cup semifinal.
:27:17. > :27:18.Even now on the terrace behind the goal, packed
:27:19. > :27:23.with Liverpool fans, people are dying.
:27:24. > :27:27.With fans spilling onto the pitch to escape the crush,
:27:28. > :27:35.The match commander, South Yorkshire Chief
:27:36. > :27:38.Superintendent David Duckenfield, had ordered a gate outside
:27:39. > :27:41.the ground to be opened, allowing fans crammed outside
:27:42. > :27:46.onto the already overcrowded terrace.
:27:47. > :27:50.Duckenfield will face charges of gross negligence manslaughter.
:27:51. > :27:57.The Crown Prosecution Service will allege Duckenfield's failure
:27:58. > :27:58.to discharge his responsibility at Hillsborough was
:27:59. > :28:02.Sir Norman Bettison faces four charges of
:28:03. > :28:07.Sir Norman, who later became Chief Constable of Merseyside
:28:08. > :28:09.and later still West Yorkshire - an apparently glittering career -
:28:10. > :28:14.was a South Yorkshire superintendent at the time of Hillsborough.
:28:15. > :28:17.The CPS allege he told lies about his involvement
:28:18. > :28:20.in the aftermath of the disaster and the culpability of the fans.
:28:21. > :28:25.He maintained today he was innocent and would contest the charges.
:28:26. > :28:27.Peter Metcalf, the solicitor for South Yorkshire Police
:28:28. > :28:30.during the original inquiry and the first, discredited,
:28:31. > :28:34.inquests, is accused of perverting the course of justice.
:28:35. > :28:37.Metcalf reviewed accounts provided by officers and,
:28:38. > :28:39.according to the prosecutor, made suggestions for alterations,
:28:40. > :28:41.deletions and amendments for which there appears
:28:42. > :28:55.Former South Yorkshire Chief Superintendent Don Denton and former
:28:56. > :28:57.Deputy Chief Inspector Alan Foster are also charged with
:28:58. > :29:06.Both are said to be involved in the statement amendment process.
:29:07. > :29:08.The sixth man to be charged is Graham Mackrell.
:29:09. > :29:10.He was company secretary for Sheffield Wednesday,
:29:11. > :29:15.As safety officer at Hillsborough, he faces two charges alleging
:29:16. > :29:18.he failed to carry out his duties as required by law.
:29:19. > :29:23.For the bereaved families who have campaigned for nearly 30 years,
:29:24. > :29:26.this is a stage towards justice that for decades looked impossible.
:29:27. > :29:29.The announcement of charges was met with their applause.
:29:30. > :29:37.We've got today everything we could have asked for.
:29:38. > :29:39.The decisions by the CPS in my opinion were
:29:40. > :29:45.And we look forward to the due process through the courts of law.
:29:46. > :29:50.I'll give you a personal response if I may.
:29:51. > :29:53.A mixed bag, a couple of names we didn't expect and a few
:29:54. > :30:00.Today's announcement is the outcome of four years of investigations
:30:01. > :30:02.by the police's Operation Resolve and the Independent Police
:30:03. > :30:08.And the CPS's deliberations over who may or may not be charged
:30:09. > :30:15.Files on West Midlands Police, the force which investigated
:30:16. > :30:20.South Yorkshire immediately after the disaster,
:30:21. > :30:23.giving them what amounted to a clean bill of health,
:30:24. > :30:26.The prosecutor says investigations are continuing.
:30:27. > :30:28.Prosecutors had been considering charging 23 individuals.
:30:29. > :30:35.Circumstances may have restricted their options.
:30:36. > :30:38.That situation in law is complex because they have to be very careful
:30:39. > :30:41.that they are taking a case, and they take major legal advice
:30:42. > :30:44.on this, they are taking a case not on the balance of probabilities
:30:45. > :30:51.And what that means is they have to be more than 50% sure
:30:52. > :30:53.that they will get a conviction before they set out.
:30:54. > :30:57.Otherwise the case will be dismissed before it starts.
:30:58. > :31:07.But six more than yesterday and certainly six more than a few
:31:08. > :31:14.years ago when we couldn't have even dreamt of this.
:31:15. > :31:24.It is not easy for Western journalists to get much access
:31:25. > :31:33.The group has killed journalists, taken them hostage, and indeed,
:31:34. > :31:37.But one journalist, Souad Mekhennet, has gone behind the lines of jihad.
:31:38. > :31:39.A Muslim woman, born in Germany, she was one of those
:31:40. > :31:42.who used her contacts to identify Jihadi John as Mohammed Emwazi.
:31:43. > :31:44.She's written her experiences into a new book called
:31:45. > :31:47."I Was Told To Come Alone", and she is with me now.
:31:48. > :31:57.Good evening. It takes courage to leave your phone and everybody
:31:58. > :32:02.behind and going to a strange place, with people who you know have been
:32:03. > :32:07.holding journalists, yet that is what you did in order to meet them.
:32:08. > :32:13.Tell us about your meeting with The Boss of Jihadi John. Well, it was
:32:14. > :32:19.during a time when we did not know what is Isis, a couple of weeks
:32:20. > :32:24.after the so-called caliphate was declared. Like other journalists, we
:32:25. > :32:29.were very curious to understand what the objectives of this caliphate?
:32:30. > :32:35.What do they want? How does it function? So I tried to negotiate
:32:36. > :32:38.with people within Isis, to meet with somebody, somebody who had
:32:39. > :32:43.something to say, not just a foot soldier. At the beginning, they had
:32:44. > :32:47.the idea I should go into the caliphate, which my boss refused. So
:32:48. > :32:54.we found this middle ground where we decided to meet alongside the border
:32:55. > :32:58.region. Things changed constantly. We were supposed to meet during the
:32:59. > :33:02.day, then they pushed it further into the night. And by the end of
:33:03. > :33:07.the day, they decided I had to come alone, which is one reason the book
:33:08. > :33:12.is told I Was Told To Come Alone. They asked me to leave behind ID and
:33:13. > :33:19.phones. As a journalist, we have to sometimes make a decision in terms
:33:20. > :33:22.of, is the story worth it? It was a period where we had so many
:33:23. > :33:27.questions and I thought that we have to talk to them and know what they
:33:28. > :33:31.say, who they are, and figure out who they are in order to understand
:33:32. > :33:39.how this caliphate functions. What were they like? In human terms, this
:33:40. > :33:47.guy, you meet him in the desert and he drives you into the desert, some
:33:48. > :33:52.remote part. Is he demonic? Is he perfectly ordinary and civil? This
:33:53. > :33:56.is the thing. A lot of people do not understand, some of those guys,
:33:57. > :34:02.especially this guy, turned out he grew up in Europe. He had a similar
:34:03. > :34:10.background. I was able to figure out also where he grew up. I learned who
:34:11. > :34:13.he was true identity. And he did not come from a deprived family. He was
:34:14. > :34:19.highly educated and he spoke several languages. He did study. And he
:34:20. > :34:23.talked to me over politics, like most of the guys. When I meet them,
:34:24. > :34:27.whether it is Isis or the Taliban, they talk to me and they discuss
:34:28. > :34:32.current policy mainly and religion comes later. And I believe that a
:34:33. > :34:38.lot of people do not understand they see it very often as a war of Islam
:34:39. > :34:44.against the West, but it is not that. Those guys discuss with you on
:34:45. > :34:47.foreign policy issues mainly. One of the striking things, a lot of us
:34:48. > :34:52.view them and think, how can you talk to Isis? There are other
:34:53. > :34:57.terrorist groups around the world you can have a conversation with,
:34:58. > :35:01.they have a cause and a set of objectives and you can possibly
:35:02. > :35:06.negotiate over those things. We are not going to negotiate with people
:35:07. > :35:09.over their desire to impose a caliphate over the entire world, or
:35:10. > :35:14.whatever it is. Did you have a sensible conversation, to put it
:35:15. > :35:20.bluntly? Sensible is a difficult word to use here. Because you can
:35:21. > :35:24.see in the book the debate we had turned into a heated discussion at
:35:25. > :35:30.some stage because I challenged them, and I challenge any person a
:35:31. > :35:34.interview. It is not like I sit and listen, no, I challenged the
:35:35. > :35:38.ideology and I asked, how can you, this is not Syria or Iraq, there was
:35:39. > :35:42.not your countries, how can you come here and basically just a choir
:35:43. > :35:48.caliphate? It is the other thing people do not understand very often.
:35:49. > :35:54.Dashed just declare a caliphate. It is not Isis against the West, Isis
:35:55. > :35:59.is going against any person if they do not stand up for the ideology. A
:36:00. > :36:03.lot of enemies. In the book, you make an enormous efforts to
:36:04. > :36:07.understand what motivates and animates courses like this, how
:36:08. > :36:14.difficult is it to avoid getting into, from understanding two -- to
:36:15. > :36:19.apologising for and explaining away? Sorry for interrupting, this is not
:36:20. > :36:24.a book that apologises and that is an excuse for terrorism, absolutely
:36:25. > :36:30.not. I believe it is very important if people really wants to find we
:36:31. > :36:35.have to understand that radicalisation starts in our
:36:36. > :36:39.societies. Those people, Jihadi John and Mohammed Emwazi and many like
:36:40. > :36:44.him, they grew up in the West and they got radicalised in the West,
:36:45. > :36:47.and there is a reason why. I believe if people want to find solutions,
:36:48. > :36:53.they have to start much earlier, before they get radicalised. The
:36:54. > :36:59.book is called, I Was Told To Come Alone. Thank you very much, Souad
:37:00. > :37:02.Mekhennet. It's hard to pin down exactly why
:37:03. > :37:05.some cuddly animal characters that are devised for children turn out
:37:06. > :37:08.to have quite such massive appeal, but among those that has captured
:37:09. > :37:11.the imagination more than most His creator, Michael Bond,
:37:12. > :37:15.died today, at the age of 91. His daughter, Karen Jankel,
:37:16. > :37:18.said of him that... "You can tell just by reading his
:37:19. > :37:21.books what a lovely person he was". And indeed, that was
:37:22. > :37:24.the impression that many of us Stephen Smith looks at the life
:37:25. > :37:29.and work of Michael Bond. "Mr and Mrs Brown first met
:37:30. > :37:31.Paddington on a railway station, which was how he came to have such
:37:32. > :37:35.an unusual name for a bear. They were waiting for
:37:36. > :37:36.their daughter, Judy, when Mr Brown caught sight of him
:37:37. > :37:39.sitting on an old suitcase, As they drew near, he stood up
:37:40. > :37:44.and politely raised his hat." It's one of the great
:37:45. > :37:46.entrances in literature - a bear on Paddington Station,
:37:47. > :37:49.in hat and duffle coat, with the luggage label he'd
:37:50. > :37:54.worn all the way from... "I'm not really supposed to be
:37:55. > :37:59.here at all, I'm a stowaway." Well, it's one of these
:38:00. > :38:01.chance encounters that one You meet somebody or turn a corner
:38:02. > :38:06.and it changes your whole life. And I happened to miss a bus one
:38:07. > :38:10.Christmas evening and went into a big London store and saw this
:38:11. > :38:13.toy bear sitting on the counter So I couldn't resist it
:38:14. > :38:19.and took it home to my wife, and we lived near Paddington,
:38:20. > :38:22.so we decided to call it Paddington. And one day, I was sitting
:38:23. > :38:25.with a blank sheet of paper and a typewriter, knowing that
:38:26. > :38:31.nobody else was going to put any words on unless I did something,
:38:32. > :38:34.and started to write a story about it, and that was
:38:35. > :38:36.the beginning of a book. Michael Bond's story was first
:38:37. > :38:39.realised in the pen-and-ink sketches of illustrator Peggy Fortnum,
:38:40. > :38:41.who herself only passed away last As a child, you feel like he's
:38:42. > :38:51.on your side because he's going through all those same
:38:52. > :38:54.experiences that you go through when And if he had any complaints at all,
:38:55. > :39:06.it was that her dumplings Paddington decided that
:39:07. > :39:10.his dumplings would be I think basically, it's the small
:39:11. > :39:25.man up against life's problems. In many ways, he's what I would
:39:26. > :39:28.like to be in life. I mean, he has a strong sense
:39:29. > :39:31.of right and wrong, which I may have, but whereas he does the right
:39:32. > :39:34.thing, I don't always do that. He's got his feet - or his paws -
:39:35. > :39:39.very firmly on the ground. Yes, I think he's
:39:40. > :39:41.what I'd like to be. Paddington is partly a story
:39:42. > :39:45.of fathers and sons. The bear's rescued by the father
:39:46. > :39:48.figure, Mr Brown, and Michael Bond himself took inspiration
:39:49. > :39:52.from his own dad. My father was a very polite man
:39:53. > :39:59.and always wore a hat, in case he met somebody,
:40:00. > :40:02.and had to have something to raise. And Paddington's got
:40:03. > :40:04.a lot of him in him. Paddington's creator didn't really
:40:05. > :40:14.enjoy writing, he admitted, but in rainy old London,
:40:15. > :40:17.he dreamt up a classic children's story and an international
:40:18. > :40:19.bestseller, in the twinkling # The sun's in my heart
:40:20. > :40:29.and I'm ready for love... I didn't intend to
:40:30. > :40:33.write a book at all. I wrote it to please myself,
:40:34. > :40:37.and I wrote it very quickly. And I put in things like a duffle
:40:38. > :40:41.coat that I was wearing at the time, In ten days, I had what turned out
:40:42. > :40:49.to be a book on my hands. Michael Bond never
:40:50. > :40:53.wanted for the price And when they made the Paddington
:40:54. > :40:58.movie, he even had a cameo, And he's right up there in the great
:40:59. > :41:11.pantheon of bears, isn't he? I mean, you only have to go
:41:12. > :41:16.to Paddington Station and now there's a statue and there's
:41:17. > :41:19.the pop-up shop, because people love So, yeah, I don't think
:41:20. > :41:28.he's going to go away. I love writing about Paddington
:41:29. > :41:32.because the nice thing about writing his books is,
:41:33. > :41:35.he makes me laugh sometimes when I'm doing a chapter
:41:36. > :41:40.because he's so optimistic. # I'm dancing and
:41:41. > :41:48.singing in the rain #. I shall carry on writing
:41:49. > :41:51.the books as long as I can. And I think one of the nice things
:41:52. > :41:55.about being a writer is that, I will be back tomorrow, until then,