:00:00. > :00:13.I think we should listen to the pay review bodies who govern each
:00:14. > :00:14.individual area of public sector pay.
:00:15. > :00:26.Has the government being underpaying nurses and teachers, Mr Secretary?
:00:27. > :00:31.The deficit problem has not exactly been cured but things have changed
:00:32. > :00:34.since 2010 and politics sees other issues as more pressing,
:00:35. > :00:38.none more so than pay for five million public workers.
:00:39. > :00:44.A veteran deficit slayer gives us his view.
:00:45. > :00:49.If you're struggling to keep up with the Trump
:00:50. > :00:53.social media strategy, we'll give you the latest.
:00:54. > :00:59.And more to the point, we'll discuss what it says about him.
:01:00. > :01:02.What have this lot have got in common?
:01:03. > :01:10.The answer is music producer Clive Langer.
:01:11. > :01:23.When I wrote with David Bowie, we met socially a few times.
:01:24. > :01:28.The debate over what replaces austerity is under way and public
:01:29. > :01:33.The 1% cap on pay rises remains for now, but there are those
:01:34. > :01:36.in government who want more pay for public workers, paid for by tax
:01:37. > :01:39.rises, others who think we should borrow to pay more and,
:01:40. > :01:42.presumably, others who think the pay cap should stay for the next few
:01:43. > :01:44.years until the deficit is definitively slain.
:01:45. > :01:46.The economic arguments are interesting given
:01:47. > :01:48.that the deficit is not the problem it was.
:01:49. > :01:50.But the politics is even more interesting -
:01:51. > :01:53.even among a certain class of deficit headbangers
:01:54. > :01:58.And then there's the fact that the debate about it
:01:59. > :02:14.1000 firemen from all parts of the country had for Hyde Park in the
:02:15. > :02:17.rain to publicise the demand for higher pay. Public sector pay has
:02:18. > :02:23.long been an issue and an emotive one. One claim for more money that
:02:24. > :02:30.everybody supports except the powers that be is for the nurses. 2010 is
:02:31. > :02:34.when the latest vagaries affected public service. The government is
:02:35. > :02:40.asking the public sector to accept a two-year pay freeze. That was
:02:41. > :02:45.followed by a 1% cap on pay rises. Year after year, who knew we would
:02:46. > :02:51.still be talking about it in 2017? The problem is that in delivering
:02:52. > :02:56.spending cuts each small sounding 1% saved on public sector pay lops
:02:57. > :03:01.almost 2 billion of public spending. For ages restraint seemed like easy
:03:02. > :03:07.money for the Exchequer. And there was a holy trinity of arguments in
:03:08. > :03:10.favour. One, back in 2010, the need to make savings was greater with the
:03:11. > :03:17.deficit running at 10% of national income. Two, the justification was
:03:18. > :03:21.clearer. Public sector pay was running perhaps higher than
:03:22. > :03:24.equivalent private sector pay. Three, public sector workers had not
:03:25. > :03:31.seen their pensions as badly curtailed. In 2010 public sector pay
:03:32. > :03:35.was a relatively attractive thing to hold down because it had done better
:03:36. > :03:39.than private sector pay in the years following the recession. Therefore,
:03:40. > :03:43.the government might have thought it could suppress public sector pay
:03:44. > :03:48.growth without too much pain in terms of people leaving and getting
:03:49. > :03:50.jobs in the private sector. But now all three of the trinity of
:03:51. > :03:56.arguments have diminished. The deficit is smaller. The public
:03:57. > :03:58.sector pay advantage over private sector workers has shrunk away and
:03:59. > :04:07.public sector pensions have been trimmed as well. So, is Whitehall
:04:08. > :04:11.ready to declare austerity dead? Cautious economists may worry that
:04:12. > :04:18.the public sector has only got two modes, tap shut or tap gushing. With
:04:19. > :04:22.urgency over the deficit gone, it will not be careful using pay
:04:23. > :04:28.restraint on a case-by-case basis. No, it will be a money rush. It
:04:29. > :04:31.takes strong leadership to stop it happening and with minority
:04:32. > :04:37.government we do not have strong leadership. Which is why it seems
:04:38. > :04:42.post-austerity politics has been unleashed in an ill disciplined way.
:04:43. > :04:47.Let's not jump ahead of ourselves. The policy has not changed for now,
:04:48. > :04:49.but the talk has surely gone too far for the direction of travel to
:04:50. > :04:53.remain unchanged for long. Our political editor
:04:54. > :05:05.Nick Watt is here. Tell us more about the goings on and
:05:06. > :05:09.the behind the scenes issues. There is irritation in the Treasury
:05:10. > :05:13.bordering on fury that now we have had a third of the Cabinet
:05:14. > :05:18.signalling they want that 1% public sector pay cap to be reviewed. Item
:05:19. > :05:21.hearing talks these ministers are virtue signalling and what has
:05:22. > :05:25.happened to the constitutional principle that the Prime Minister is
:05:26. > :05:30.first among equals? All the Cabinet think they are equal. In a speech
:05:31. > :05:34.tonight to the CBI the Chancellor said there is no change to the
:05:35. > :05:39.policy of striking the right balance of being fair to our public servers
:05:40. > :05:42.and fair to those who pay for them. But he said the government is
:05:43. > :05:47.continually assessing that balance and in a sign of how complex he
:05:48. > :05:51.regards this, he says there should be a grown-up debate on how to fund
:05:52. > :05:56.public services and the only way to do that sustainably in the long term
:05:57. > :06:01.is by growing the economy. A grown-up debate. Why can't we have a
:06:02. > :06:06.childish debate! Do you think Philip Hammond can do anything about this?
:06:07. > :06:10.Will he? This is a minority government so it feels that the
:06:11. > :06:16.Chancellor may well act in his budget later this year and Mason the
:06:17. > :06:21.signal in the run-up to that budget. Interestingly in his speech tonight
:06:22. > :06:24.he said the spike in inflation due to currency depreciation has led to
:06:25. > :06:29.what he has called frustration over the stagnation in real pay growth. I
:06:30. > :06:35.understand there is a concern between the gap between that 1% pay
:06:36. > :06:41.cap and inflation which is currently running at close to 3%. I think what
:06:42. > :06:47.we could be looking at later this year is movement in that area by
:06:48. > :06:51.putting a link between inflation and public sector pay rises. Maybe not a
:06:52. > :06:58.real terms rise in pay, but what you could maybe see is perhaps you could
:06:59. > :07:01.have a rise in pay at 1% below the CPI. The consumer prices index.
:07:02. > :07:03.Ken Clarke was Chancellor of the Exchequer between 1993
:07:04. > :07:09.until 1997 as well as a number of other senior Cabinet roles.
:07:10. > :07:19.He spent money as well as dishing it out, but in his years the deficit
:07:20. > :07:22.came down substantially. Is there an economic case at the moment for
:07:23. > :07:28.continuing with the pay restraint in the public sector beyond this year?
:07:29. > :07:35.Yes, there is, until the economy shows signs of definitely recovering
:07:36. > :07:39.from the current serious slowdown. Now we are a minority government,
:07:40. > :07:43.but one that is intending to go on, and we have to work out our aims. I
:07:44. > :07:49.presume we will carry on for a few years and we will have a successful
:07:50. > :07:53.government which means we show we are confident, we have a reasonable
:07:54. > :07:56.economy, we avoid going into recession and we get nearer a
:07:57. > :08:01.reasonable Brexit deal and we achieved reasonable growth. If
:08:02. > :08:11.everyone is going to get into the lobby of the week and this year it
:08:12. > :08:19.is public sector pay... The politically vulnerable. What you
:08:20. > :08:22.cannot do is give in to that. What would be disastrous and silly
:08:23. > :08:31.economically would be putting money in to fuel a biased in pay in the
:08:32. > :08:34.public sector pursuing inflation. You are making out the case for
:08:35. > :08:42.public sector pay rises is weakness and stupidity and you have retention
:08:43. > :08:45.problems which means you have to pay them more. The public sector used to
:08:46. > :08:51.be paid more than the private sector and that has gone now. You can rely
:08:52. > :08:56.on that. In parts of the country you have secure and reliable jobs.
:08:57. > :09:00.Nurses are so popular, they are highly respected by me and other
:09:01. > :09:06.people and they are on the front line and we have a problem with
:09:07. > :09:10.nurses. Brexit has meant devaluation which has meant this country is less
:09:11. > :09:18.attractive for nurses to work on and people have gone back. Whatever the
:09:19. > :09:22.cause, basic economics means if you are short of people, you pay more to
:09:23. > :09:28.get them. How much are you going to give? If the government gives into
:09:29. > :09:35.this, it will not get any credit for it. Firstly our opponents, the
:09:36. > :09:39.Labour Party, will say it is not enough, you have abandoned the cap.
:09:40. > :09:42.The newspapers and the political bubble will say another defeat for
:09:43. > :09:48.Theresa May and the Chancellor. That is what happened to the very
:09:49. > :09:54.sensible decision on abortion for Northern Ireland women which Theresa
:09:55. > :09:58.May was extremely anxious about, but it was portrayed as a defeat for
:09:59. > :10:03.her. You say the politics mean you have to stand firm. Responding to
:10:04. > :10:08.Labour's manifesto which was rather popular, responding to that by
:10:09. > :10:14.getting halfway on matching certain things is not going to work? If you
:10:15. > :10:19.are in government you have to take tough, difficult decisions which are
:10:20. > :10:23.in the general public interest, including public servants, because
:10:24. > :10:27.you wish to keep a strong, growing, modern economy. Throwing money about
:10:28. > :10:33.to make yourself more popular next week is a mistake. When you were
:10:34. > :10:38.Chancellor you got the deficit down. It was not starting from such a high
:10:39. > :10:43.base. You took on popular actions. You put up taxes and you cut
:10:44. > :10:48.spending and you did them in about even measure. That was a political
:10:49. > :10:53.choice. You thought, let's be a centrist government and we will do a
:10:54. > :10:58.bit on spending and a bit on taxes. George Osborne's austerity was very
:10:59. > :11:04.different. It was more than 80% on spending. He did not put up taxes.
:11:05. > :11:07.You could say it has gone too far on the public service side and we need
:11:08. > :11:13.to spend more and we need to put up taxes to pay for it. He took over
:11:14. > :11:18.from a very high taxing government, so he was restrained. What you have
:11:19. > :11:22.to do is address the reality of the economic situation of the moment.
:11:23. > :11:28.Behind all this somebody used earlier the phrase grown-up
:11:29. > :11:32.politics, if you are in government, unlike these other people floating
:11:33. > :11:37.around doing interviews, you have to look at the reality and your duty to
:11:38. > :11:44.deliver is an economy which in a few years' time is better than when you
:11:45. > :11:49.took over. The Labour Party held, but when we reached the election we
:11:50. > :11:55.were miles ahead of them in the opinion polls on the economy. What
:11:56. > :12:02.do you think Philip Hammond means by grown-up conversation? It addresses
:12:03. > :12:06.the extremely serious economic problems we face. Is not grown-up at
:12:07. > :12:13.the moment? Make a cheap political point. It is the politicians as much
:12:14. > :12:20.as the media, in the political bubble, it is not grown-up at all.
:12:21. > :12:25.Brexit has stimulated a devaluation and inflation and living standards
:12:26. > :12:33.are dropping and we are the slowest growing economy. Gove and Johnson,
:12:34. > :12:37.those who wanted Brexit, are those who have been out in the last 24
:12:38. > :12:47.hours suggesting public sector pay needs to be raised. I think your
:12:48. > :12:51.clips span what Michael said. You have cut out all the stuff when we
:12:52. > :12:54.talked about fiscal discipline. No one else is doing that. I am
:12:55. > :12:59.delighted to see Cabinet ministers being let out, being allowed to do
:13:00. > :13:03.what Cabinet minister should do, and go out and talk about politics and
:13:04. > :13:07.defend their policies and explain why they are doing things. Philip
:13:08. > :13:11.should do more of it, to Reza may should do more of it and go back to
:13:12. > :13:22.sensible discussion. All this PR rubbish about slogans, get rid of
:13:23. > :13:32.it. They need to practice otherwise they will get spun to make mischief.
:13:33. > :13:36.You are saying we should not worry. They need to be reminded they all
:13:37. > :13:40.got to contribute to the serious job in hand otherwise the whole Cabinet
:13:41. > :13:47.will go down if they respond to populist urges and make a mess of
:13:48. > :13:52.the economy when people look back in a few years' time. You will make a
:13:53. > :13:56.mess of the economy if you pour money in and about will have to
:13:57. > :14:03.raise interest rates, you will cast serious doubts on economic ability.
:14:04. > :14:08.You cast the public sector pay issue as populism, a word bandied about a
:14:09. > :14:13.lot. You see it as all part of one and the same. It is this week's
:14:14. > :14:19.media campaign. The nurses and doctors settled for 1% without any
:14:20. > :14:25.particular the murdered's months ago and suddenly it is the great
:14:26. > :14:29.passionate cause of the day. You famously called Theresa May a bloody
:14:30. > :14:33.difficult woman. She took that as a badge of honour and was quoting it.
:14:34. > :14:40.Do you still think she is a bloody difficult woman? She needs to be
:14:41. > :14:46.difficult. Is chic or is she a pushover? I hope she proves to be a
:14:47. > :14:50.bloody difficult woman and says, we have the serious task of government,
:14:51. > :14:55.let us follow grown-up politics or we will be stuck in that cliche. We
:14:56. > :15:01.have an economic difficulty, we do not want to be left behind by the
:15:02. > :15:03.developed world, we have a lot of tough challenges, we are not
:15:04. > :15:08.suddenly throwing money about so that we can beat the Labour Party
:15:09. > :15:14.and say we are giving everybody a pay rise will stab you will set of
:15:15. > :15:16.private sector pay rises and set off interest rates and cause a blow to
:15:17. > :15:20.confidence and cause further slowdown.
:15:21. > :15:23.For the past three years the Royal Military Police, the RMP,
:15:24. > :15:25.have been investigating hundreds of cases of alleged wrongdoing
:15:26. > :15:33.Yesterday the Sunday Times reported claims of a cover up of dozens
:15:34. > :15:35.of unlawful killings by what the newspaper described
:15:36. > :15:41.The Sunday Times reported that fewer than ten cases are now
:15:42. > :15:45.being actively investigated by the RMP and just one of them
:15:46. > :15:47.is a case of unlawful killing involving a 2011 SAS operation
:15:48. > :15:51.Our defence editor Mark Urban has been following these allegations
:15:52. > :15:58.for years and can now add something to the story for us.
:15:59. > :16:05.Take us through the allegations. Essentially, if you talk to people
:16:06. > :16:11.who have been involved with special operations in Afghanistan, there is
:16:12. > :16:16.a widespread belief that the SAS at times was using excessive force or
:16:17. > :16:20.stop that might be at the extreme end, getting people who should have
:16:21. > :16:25.been taken prisoner, and going right the way back to such things like
:16:26. > :16:31.so-called tactical questioning, I practice they ramped up in Iraq in
:16:32. > :16:35.2000 rural macro and also took to Afghanistan, quite rough
:16:36. > :16:39.interrogation of people on site. Where raids were taking place was
:16:40. > :16:45.the these kind of excessive use of force. It is right to say that
:16:46. > :16:48.people that you speak to believe the SAS were engaged in that at times
:16:49. > :16:53.during the operations in Afghanistan. What was going on?
:16:54. > :16:59.There were a set of factors, they came to it late, the Royal Marines
:17:00. > :17:04.rivals had dominated the theatre until 2009. There was pressure on
:17:05. > :17:07.them to achieve results and they achieved them a certain way in Iraq
:17:08. > :17:11.and it was pretty kinetic as they would say. There was also the
:17:12. > :17:16.perception that the detention system was broken, and this is something we
:17:17. > :17:20.have reported before on this programme, that people who were
:17:21. > :17:23.being arrested, thousands, all but a small number were released
:17:24. > :17:35.immediately and that led to an allegation from someone who ran the
:17:36. > :17:45.detention centre, brought STUDIO: Broadcast we had in 2015.
:17:46. > :17:50.I've spoke to people on the ground who said that
:17:51. > :17:52.whenever they found out what was happening to detainees it
:17:53. > :17:57.In preference they would rather shoot them on the ground,
:17:58. > :18:00.to save the taxpayer money and to save soldiers being killed.
:18:01. > :18:05.That is a pretty extraordinary claim. That was two years ago. The
:18:06. > :18:10.Sunday Times had their report yesterday. What do we know about the
:18:11. > :18:18.investigation? The first thing we have to say, between a belief or a
:18:19. > :18:24.conviction or a hearsay, we have got to consider his comments in that
:18:25. > :18:31.context, and a criminal context that can be sent to the prosecution
:18:32. > :18:34.services authority, by the military police, that is a different thing,
:18:35. > :18:41.and there are the rights of those accused. What we have seen in this
:18:42. > :18:45.operation, a team of 100 people, out of hundreds of cases involving all
:18:46. > :18:49.of the forces, not just the SAS, they have come down to less than ten
:18:50. > :18:53.where they still feel there could be a prosecutable case. All sorts of
:18:54. > :18:58.reasons for that, but not least, if you want to find out what happened
:18:59. > :19:02.3-4 years ago in a remote village in Helmand province, the likelihood
:19:03. > :19:05.that is now under Taliban control and it will be very hard to access
:19:06. > :19:10.people who could give you accurate eyewitness testimony and they are
:19:11. > :19:15.all sorts of difficulties here. And that has led some to conclude that
:19:16. > :19:20.things are maybe being hurried along or it is being hushed up, but the
:19:21. > :19:23.MOD would say no, we have got to do this properly and the evidence has
:19:24. > :19:27.not been there for prosecutions up to date. Mark, thanks.
:19:28. > :19:30.Before we came on air I spoke to Johnny Mercer,
:19:31. > :19:32.the Conservative MP who before entering Parliament was Captain
:19:33. > :19:34.in the Royal Artillery and served in Afghanistan.
:19:35. > :19:37.I asked him if it was the first time he had ever heard of such
:19:38. > :19:41.allegations. During my time of doing that sort
:19:42. > :19:44.of work in 2008, 2009, I never saw any of this
:19:45. > :19:46.kind of behaviour. Heard reports of it
:19:47. > :19:59.or talk of it or gossip? There is always talk of stories
:20:00. > :20:02.going round in theatre. There is always Chinese whispers,
:20:03. > :20:04.there are always stories that get And we have to be very
:20:05. > :20:19.clear on the difference between those and unlawful acts
:20:20. > :20:21.that have happened. If unlawful acts are found to have
:20:22. > :20:23.happen, then clearly we will deal with those
:20:24. > :20:26.in the appropriate process. You were very active in the campaign
:20:27. > :20:28.against vexatious claims in relation to allegations against British
:20:29. > :20:30.troops in Iraq. When you look at what the stories
:20:31. > :20:32.are from Afghanistan, do you think these are very
:20:33. > :20:35.different to the situation in Iraq? The work I did around
:20:36. > :20:39.closing down the Iraq historical allegations team,
:20:40. > :20:41.it was something where at the end of that process the system
:20:42. > :20:44.was being completely abused and persecuting soldiers
:20:45. > :20:46.for incidents which had never I think, whichever workforce you're
:20:47. > :20:53.in, if people come forward with allegations of wrongdoing
:20:54. > :20:57.or unlawful conduct, The values and standards that
:20:58. > :21:04.certainly when I was serving and I know still exist
:21:05. > :21:06.within the British Army are not compatible with what was in that
:21:07. > :21:09.Sunday Times article. How would you describe
:21:10. > :21:11.the allegations as you have read them and tried to make
:21:12. > :21:16.sense of them? These terms, rogue units
:21:17. > :21:18.and so on, sound great Whether or not individuals have
:21:19. > :21:24.broken the law whilst they're conducting operations on behalf
:21:25. > :21:26.of this nation. I think when we start using these
:21:27. > :21:35.terms that perhaps aren't as clear and we are looking to, in a way,
:21:36. > :21:38.sensationalise what has gone on. Let's remember these
:21:39. > :21:40.are allegations at the moment. I know the army and the MoD
:21:41. > :21:46.has the ability to hold But there are people who are saying
:21:47. > :21:53.these investigations are being closed down before
:21:54. > :21:55.they have really had You're confident there is no
:21:56. > :22:01.cover-up, basically? It sounds like you're
:22:02. > :22:03.confident about that. I'm confident that the individuals
:22:04. > :22:05.who are served with, who I know are still serving,
:22:06. > :22:07.the chain of command in the military, the military side
:22:08. > :22:11.of the MoD, would not accept any And where there is evidence and that
:22:12. > :22:17.evidence is critically important, where there is evidence
:22:18. > :22:19.they will drill down on that I'm content that they
:22:20. > :22:29.would not cover this up. I don't know anybody who's serving
:22:30. > :22:32.who thinks that unlawful behaviour on operations is acceptable in any
:22:33. > :22:34.way whatsoever, regardless of cap If you read, for example,
:22:35. > :22:45.the comments under the Sunday Times report, many of the commenters say
:22:46. > :22:48.these guys are trying to protect us, this is guerrilla war,
:22:49. > :22:50.it's completely different to the wars of the First World War,
:22:51. > :22:53.the Second World War, and we need to hold these things
:22:54. > :22:56.to a different standard. Are they right to take
:22:57. > :22:58.that view or not? I fought in that conflict
:22:59. > :23:02.and I don't know anybody who fought in that conflict who did
:23:03. > :23:04.the operations we did who believes there is ever a reason
:23:05. > :23:06.to conduct unlawful behaviour. We try and give ourselves
:23:07. > :23:08.some legitimacy, some credibility, when we are trying
:23:09. > :23:11.to stabilise these countries. That's what separates
:23:12. > :23:15.us from the enemy. You cannot go around behaving
:23:16. > :23:18.in this manner and expect to win a counterinsurgency operation
:23:19. > :23:22.where you have to bring the population onside and ultimately
:23:23. > :23:25.it is their country and the solutions are all Afghan
:23:26. > :23:27.or Iraq solutions depending So, no, there aren't people
:23:28. > :23:32.in the military who think this is a terribly dirty war
:23:33. > :23:35.and we behave like everybody else. We are a professional army
:23:36. > :23:38.and there are things that set us This is one of them
:23:39. > :23:41.and we adhere to it. It takes quite a lot to force
:23:42. > :23:48.Donald Trump off the news agenda but what with the general election
:23:49. > :23:56.and its inconclusive result, multiple terror attacks
:23:57. > :23:58.and the Grenfell fire, even the headline-grabbing President
:23:59. > :24:00.has been taking a lower profile, That changed yesterday
:24:01. > :24:04.when he tweeted a video of him attacking a man with the CNN logo
:24:05. > :24:09.where his head was. This had been doctored
:24:10. > :24:12.from an appearance on a wrestling This raised accusations
:24:13. > :24:16.that he was inciting violence against the mainstream media that,
:24:17. > :24:18.he asserts, has been So, for anyone not paying close
:24:19. > :24:22.attention, here's a brief catch up on what the President has been up
:24:23. > :24:45.to in recent weeks. Oh my God, what's going to happen!
:24:46. > :24:51.I'm fine. My family brought me up really tough, this is nothing, but
:24:52. > :24:55.for me personally what I'm concerned about is to what this once again
:24:56. > :25:00.reveals about the President of the United States. We're OK. The
:25:01. > :25:20.country's not. So we're going to talk and Sewell we
:25:21. > :25:26.can do, we're getting very close, but for the country we have to have
:25:27. > :25:34.it up and running again -- and see what we can do. What we have seen is
:25:35. > :25:38.the hiring of a number of people to support the investigation, most of
:25:39. > :25:45.them quite well respected law enforcement officials from prior
:25:46. > :25:48.administrations. And there have been some leaks about the direction of
:25:49. > :25:52.the probe and what it is focusing on but we don't know where it is going
:25:53. > :26:18.to end up, but it appears to be underway in very serious way.
:26:19. > :26:24.He tweeted about this over the weekend, saying may the fake news
:26:25. > :26:27.media will focus on the success we are having, but we have covered the
:26:28. > :26:33.story is about what is happening, positive and negative, during his
:26:34. > :26:40.presidency, but if you wanted us to stop writing about his outrageous
:26:41. > :26:42.tweets, he could stop issuing them, but if there's anything he better
:26:43. > :26:45.than anyone should realise is that he does have the ability to set the
:26:46. > :26:48.agenda. Joining me now in the studio
:26:49. > :26:51.is Jonathan Freedland, author and journalist,
:26:52. > :26:53.and from Los Angeles, Charlotte Laws, Trump supporter
:26:54. > :27:03.and political analyst. Charlotte, many people have said he
:27:04. > :27:08.was inciting violence. With this last tweet, what do you say to that?
:27:09. > :27:16.I said that is false. It was basically a joke. It was humorous,
:27:17. > :27:20.like the three Stooges or a cartoon. He was basically trying to say he
:27:21. > :27:26.was victorious over CNN, that they had three journalists who had to
:27:27. > :27:31.resign because of a fake news story and so that was what he was trying
:27:32. > :27:35.to say. Many of his supporters like that, and I would like him to be
:27:36. > :27:38.more presidential, but many of his supporters were excited about the
:27:39. > :27:44.fact that he was being authentic and the usual Trump and that he was
:27:45. > :27:47.speaking directly to them through social media and there are things
:27:48. > :27:55.that people liked about it and he got 400,000 likes on that one tweet.
:27:56. > :28:01.Jonathan, on that specific one, do you accept it was a pantomime
:28:02. > :28:08.violence rather than incitement? It is not the worst thing that he has
:28:09. > :28:12.done, when he called the press the enemies of the people, that was much
:28:13. > :28:19.worse, which had an authoritarian Echo. But journalists criticising
:28:20. > :28:24.him have been on the end of death threats and five and threats from
:28:25. > :28:32.social media. Some of the Trump supporters have praised him.
:28:33. > :28:37.Journalists have shown their timeline full of threats and death
:28:38. > :28:40.threats. Charlotte, you said you would like him to be more
:28:41. > :28:45.presidential, but has he not cause an American political discourse
:28:46. > :28:50.significantly? -- coarsened. Is this a problem. You get people who
:28:51. > :28:55.respond to this in a very violent and problematic way in this debases
:28:56. > :29:01.it for everybody? I do think the violence has stemmed from him,
:29:02. > :29:06.rather just the divisiveness of the whole campaign. The media has waged
:29:07. > :29:09.a campaign against him which continues on a daily basis and I
:29:10. > :29:16.think that riles up people on the left. And on the right. Are they not
:29:17. > :29:23.allowed to wage a campaign against in the right wing media wages
:29:24. > :29:28.campaign against the likes of the Clintons and Obama. It is the
:29:29. > :29:35.buyers, that is what it really is. Fake news, there are three types of
:29:36. > :29:38.fake news, biased news, erroneous news where there are errors and
:29:39. > :29:42.there are things like the onion which is completely fake. It is the
:29:43. > :29:47.first two which are a problem. The biased news is pervasive on the left
:29:48. > :29:51.and right and it is very difficult as a consumer to even know who you
:29:52. > :29:56.can trust. That has become a big issue. You are not just saying that
:29:57. > :30:03.is the anti-trump media, that is a problem for everybody? It has become
:30:04. > :30:08.more of a problem with anti-Trump media because most of the media is
:30:09. > :30:11.against him, unfortunately. Jonathan, you work for The Guardian
:30:12. > :30:19.newspaper and you have written a book, it is about an in trading plot
:30:20. > :30:20.-- intriguing plot, a demigod president has taken over the United
:30:21. > :30:30.States. I would stress it is a novel and no
:30:31. > :30:36.president is named. If it was written by someone from the National
:30:37. > :30:40.Rifle Association and Hillary Clinton was president, would we not
:30:41. > :30:45.be saying that is violence and it was debating? It was written by a
:30:46. > :30:50.political activist and it was a novel and a thriller, it would be
:30:51. > :30:55.like saying, you cannot write that Day Of The Jackal because you would
:30:56. > :31:06.incite people to kill the French president. It is a different
:31:07. > :31:09.situation. How do you think liberal establishment society, people like
:31:10. > :31:15.you, how should they respond to the Donald Trump tweets? One argument is
:31:16. > :31:20.ignore them. We are assessing over every week and another silly tweets
:31:21. > :31:24.and we are talking about that and not American health care and the
:31:25. > :31:28.budget and all the other things. You cannot do that. The speech of a
:31:29. > :31:36.president is the act of a president. I remember somebody wanting to
:31:37. > :31:41.restore dignity to the White House because they thought the other
:31:42. > :31:46.president had defined it somehow. But Donald Trump attacks women for
:31:47. > :31:49.their appearance, he has this weird obsession about women and blood and
:31:50. > :31:54.you cannot say the president of the United States should be ignored. He
:31:55. > :32:00.himself says these tweets are acts of the president and you have to
:32:01. > :32:04.report them. Sometimes they are fat and you have to report the fact that
:32:05. > :32:09.Bob Moller's investigation is widely known to include all kinds of things
:32:10. > :32:14.and you have to report that. We are all talking about the tweets and not
:32:15. > :32:17.the stuff he is doing. That would be great if under the radar he was
:32:18. > :32:22.doing a lot of stuff, but what do you feel he has achieved? He has
:32:23. > :32:27.done a lot under the radar because they say he has signed more bills
:32:28. > :32:32.than any president since Truman. We have more jobs in the United States,
:32:33. > :32:37.he has done a lot with regards to immigration. We have two exciting
:32:38. > :32:45.bills before the Senate, Kate Law and another one regarding citizens.
:32:46. > :32:50.He has done a lot for veterans. Veterans can go to any hospital
:32:51. > :32:56.provider. I thought that the divorce was a good pick because we will go
:32:57. > :33:03.towards choice hopefully. He has done quite a bit. But many in the
:33:04. > :33:07.media do not report that. They obsess over the tweets. There is a
:33:08. > :33:17.double standard. If the NRA were to do some kind of book or a play about
:33:18. > :33:21.killing a woman president, if it was Hillary Clinton, or Barack Obama if
:33:22. > :33:24.it was a black president, everybody would be outraged about that. There
:33:25. > :33:30.is a double standard out there and it has become politically correct to
:33:31. > :33:35.attack Trump. The Trump record is disastrous by his own standards. He
:33:36. > :33:40.set out to build a wall, and to repeal Obamacare, he has not
:33:41. > :33:44.achieved things and it has been a disastrous presidency already. Thank
:33:45. > :33:48.He is one of the greatest rock 'n' roll hitmakers
:33:49. > :33:51.Veteran British producer Clive Langer is the man behind
:33:52. > :33:53.a string of chart-toppers by stars including David Bowie, Madness,
:33:54. > :33:56.Morrisey, Elvis Costello, Dexy's Midnight Runners
:33:57. > :34:00.When you hear a record with "that English pop thing",
:34:01. > :34:07.as Langer calls it, chances are he was responsible.
:34:08. > :34:10.Now though, Langer's decided to put his mixing desk in mothballs
:34:11. > :34:12.and return to his first love - writing and performing.
:34:13. > :34:15.As he works on a new project - the Clang Group - he talked
:34:16. > :34:17.to our Culture Correspondent Stephen Smith.
:34:18. > :34:31.In a studio in south London, alumni of Clive Langer's influential art
:34:32. > :34:35.school band Deaf School are working on new material.
:34:36. > :34:43.# No change, no change # No change, no change
:34:44. > :34:50.Langer hasn't performed much for the past 25 years.
:34:51. > :34:52.Since stumbling into producing almost by accident,
:34:53. > :34:58.I was the guy that would hang around at the control room
:34:59. > :35:01.while everybody was doing their work on an album.
:35:02. > :35:13.Madness were in, they were in a band called the North London Invaders.
:35:14. > :35:15.I went to a rehearsal, I heard "My Girl".
:35:16. > :35:27.# My girl's mad at me # We argued just the other night #.
:35:28. > :35:32.When I went into producing this record with Madness on a track in a
:35:33. > :35:37.studio called Pathway, I had some idea of what I was doing.
:35:38. > :35:49.# Why can't she see # She's lovely to me.
:35:50. > :35:51.We worked with bands, normally in a live situation,
:35:52. > :35:55.recording what they sounded like and then making the most of that.
:35:56. > :35:58.In a kind of sensitive way, hopefully.
:35:59. > :36:07.Together with producing partner Alan Winstanley,
:36:08. > :36:10.Langer enjoyed a string of hits with Dexy's Midnight
:36:11. > :36:27.If you hear a record with that English pop thing,
:36:28. > :36:31.as Langer calls it, it's probably one of his.
:36:32. > :36:37.So I wrote this tune and I wanted Robert Wyatt to
:36:38. > :36:44.I played it to Elvis at a party, at Nick Lowe's party, and I
:36:45. > :37:00.Yeah, he then wrote the lyric for it.
:37:01. > :37:17.# It was just a rumour that was spread around town
:37:18. > :37:26.At some point I thought all the a and our people were giving us the
:37:27. > :38:34.slightly complex characters as opposed to the pop groups so we
:38:35. > :38:36.spent a year and a half working with Morrisey and it was a great
:38:37. > :39:12.experience. They only had a small record
:39:13. > :39:15.company, but we had the extra half percent, expecting them to sell
:39:16. > :39:18.20,000, and the next thing I know it was 6 million in America. So I paid
:39:19. > :39:40.my mortgages. Very nice. Steve Smith. And that is it for
:39:41. > :39:54.tonight. We leave you with the news that
:39:55. > :39:56.Bank of England staff are to go on strike at the end
:39:57. > :39:59.of the month. Proving irony isn't dead,
:40:00. > :40:01.the dispute is about "below Less amusingly, one
:40:02. > :40:04.of the departments going Let's hope no one remembers
:40:05. > :40:51.what her Majesty keeps in the bank's There is warmer weather on the way
:40:52. > :40:53.for England and Wales this week, but wetter weather for Northern Ireland
:40:54. > :41:01.and southern Scotland and parts of northern England. Sun north of that
:41:02. > :41:05.and size of that. The rain will ease a bit later in the afternoon in
:41:06. > :41:11.Northern Ireland, northern Scotland stays mainly dry, but there will be
:41:12. > :41:14.the odd shower around. For the Central Belt and southern Scotland
:41:15. > :41:21.and northern counties of England it will be a wet and cool day. From
:41:22. > :41:25.Manchester to Sheffield it will be a bit warmer compared with the rainy
:41:26. > :41:32.zone. South of that and in England and Wales the sun will be reluctant
:41:33. > :41:36.in the morning, but it will break in the afternoon like it did today and
:41:37. > :41:43.it will feel a bit warmer, more places getting 20 or just above. As
:41:44. > :41:48.we look further into the week for Wednesday the northern half of the
:41:49. > :41:55.country will fare a little bit better. Southern parts are getting
:41:56. > :42:03.warmer, certainly hot on Wednesday and the humidity will be heading up
:42:04. > :42:07.as well. By Wednesday there is just an area of cloud in the rainy zone.
:42:08. > :42:08.Northern Scotland still seeing