:00:08. > :00:10.It's summer, and it is the season for the next wave of desperate
:00:11. > :00:12.migrants to try and cross the Mediterranean to Europe.
:00:13. > :00:24.In parts of Italy the strain is beginning to show.
:00:25. > :00:28.We want to divide Europe from immigration and multiculturalism.
:00:29. > :00:31.NGOs trying to save migrants from their precarious
:00:32. > :00:33.boats are being accused of facilitating people smuggling.
:00:34. > :00:34.And there's new friction between European countries.
:00:35. > :00:37.if Europe couldn't handle migration effectively two years ago, or last
:00:38. > :00:45.The government promised to rehouse all the Grenfell survivors.
:00:46. > :00:50.But are residents accepting the option being offered to them?
:00:51. > :00:55.The second one was near a very busy road and that was not sitting my
:00:56. > :01:02.needs. Gay pride has come a long way from
:01:03. > :01:06.THIS in the '70s to Pride in 2016. As this weekend's march approaches,
:01:07. > :01:09.we ask a veteran of the LGBT movement what it took to get
:01:10. > :01:17.from there to here. Hello, Europe, again, predictably,
:01:18. > :01:20.finds itself enmeshed in arguments It is true that last year,
:01:21. > :01:27.it did manage a deal with Turkey, that closed the eastern route,
:01:28. > :01:30.from say Syria to Greece and beyond. But that still leaves tens
:01:31. > :01:33.of thousands of people this year, taking the route up
:01:34. > :01:37.from Libya into Italy. Those numbers cause
:01:38. > :01:38.friction in Italy itself, Today Austria announced that it's
:01:39. > :01:43.ready to deploy troops And there's a new focus
:01:44. > :01:48.to the argument now: the role of NGOs rescuing migrants
:01:49. > :01:51.from the mediterranean. They face accusations they're
:01:52. > :01:57.encouraging people smuggling. Two thousand have died this year -
:01:58. > :02:14.Looking at the numbers it seems For desperate people it can be
:02:15. > :02:16.tempting to cross because the bulk survive. About 97%.
:02:17. > :02:19.We have an extended report, now from Yalda Hakim
:02:20. > :02:21.whose been in Sicily, which is on the frontline
:02:22. > :02:25.A flimsy inflatable dinghy full of migrants is adrift in the open
:02:26. > :02:27.sea, around 30 miles from the Libyan coast.
:02:28. > :02:38.They have no fuel, no water, and no food.
:02:39. > :02:42.They've been detected by a Spanish NGO.
:02:43. > :02:45.Most of these migrants have never seen the ocean.
:02:46. > :02:51.After hours at sea in the sweltering heat, they are
:02:52. > :02:59.This boat has just arrived with 500 migrants who been
:03:00. > :03:03.rescued trying to make the very dangerous journey from Libya to
:03:04. > :03:08.So far this year, over 80,000 people from different
:03:09. > :03:19.The vast majority are not refugees fleeing war.
:03:20. > :03:31.Sympathy for the migrants is wearing thin.
:03:32. > :03:44.What is the solution to Italy's migrant crisis?
:03:45. > :03:48.This town is one of those providing a haven for recent arrivals who
:03:49. > :03:57.These young men of 16 and 17 are from the
:03:58. > :03:59.country which makes up the second-largest number
:04:00. > :04:07.of migrants to come to Italy this year.
:04:08. > :04:12.The boys told me they never intended to come to Europe, that they had
:04:13. > :04:14.asked people smugglers to take them to Libya.
:04:15. > :04:30.But when they got there they became victims.
:04:31. > :04:35.Bought and sold from one
:04:36. > :05:10.boys finally got onto the boat for Italy.
:05:11. > :05:18.Not everyone is welcoming to migrants coming to Europe.
:05:19. > :05:23.This is a promo video from a group calling
:05:24. > :05:27.themselves the Identitarian Movement.
:05:28. > :05:30.With headquarters in Austria and France, they are a small
:05:31. > :05:37.but growing group and their aim is to campaign against immigration.
:05:38. > :05:41.This summer, the movement tried to stop an NSF rescue ship
:05:42. > :05:48.The stunt ultimately failed but in a few weeks the
:05:49. > :05:51.organisation raised over 70,000 euros and they've now chartered a
:05:52. > :05:54.ship they say they will use to disrupt
:05:55. > :05:55.trafficking and monitor the
:05:56. > :06:07.Their Italy coordinator, Lorenzo Fiato, has flown down
:06:08. > :06:12.We want to defend Europe from mass immigration
:06:13. > :06:16.We think in every city where multiculturalism is present,
:06:17. > :06:22.there is also radical Islam and violence regarding illegal immigrant
:06:23. > :06:31.So you want European culture to just be white?
:06:32. > :06:33.It is not just a matter of white, it is of
:06:34. > :06:36.This is a different kind of migration, these
:06:37. > :06:42.are thousands of illegal migrants coming to our shores, flooding into
:06:43. > :06:47.Lorenzo's first goal is to combat those he sees as
:06:48. > :06:57.You say you don't want the NGOs operating in those waters, you
:06:58. > :07:02.They say if they do stop more lives will be lost.
:07:03. > :07:04.I think this is false because these people
:07:05. > :07:06.are coming to Europe, they
:07:07. > :07:08.You cannot solve this problem by helping
:07:09. > :07:11.human traffickers doing their job because they want to transport
:07:12. > :07:23.illegal migrants saw you are just helping them.
:07:24. > :07:25.The next day, Lorenzo is meeting some new Identitarian
:07:26. > :07:33.Viviana and Claudia are university students from the
:07:34. > :07:41.All these restaurants, they are owned by
:07:42. > :07:45.Yes, most of them, especially these, they are
:07:46. > :07:49.easy to do and the food is not so healthy.
:07:50. > :08:03.There are a lot of them and they continue to appear.
:08:04. > :08:06.They are literally replacing the people
:08:07. > :08:09.We are always less and they are always
:08:10. > :08:16.I wanted to find out why they had joined the
:08:17. > :09:02.So what do Sicilians think of Lorenzo and his friends, their
:09:03. > :09:43.Lorenzo sees the chance for a bit of PR and tells
:09:44. > :10:03.There's been another rescue, this time by
:10:04. > :10:10.An inflatable carrying 125 people has been located off Libya.
:10:11. > :10:16.It is beginning to deflate, it is taking on water.
:10:17. > :10:38.One is the mother of a 15-month-old baby.
:10:39. > :10:42.The ship comes into the port of Sicily, where a
:10:43. > :10:47.local prosecutor is investigating whether some NGO ships are
:10:48. > :11:19.The NGO missions are coordinated by the Italian coastguard but the
:11:20. > :11:24.country's legal system has launched two investigations into whether they
:11:25. > :11:28.are saving lives or assisting illegal immigrant on their journey.
:11:29. > :11:31.Do you feel that by rescuing these boats,
:11:32. > :11:37.the NGOs are encouraging the
:11:38. > :12:03.There are critics who have accused NGOs of
:12:04. > :12:12.The NGOs argue that if they were not operating in the area, more lives
:12:13. > :12:26.Back on the quay, the Save the Children ship is preparing
:12:27. > :12:37.Since last September, the Vos Hestia has rescued more than
:12:38. > :12:40.4000 migrants at sea, including over 500 children.
:12:41. > :12:43.I asked the captain what he thought of claims NGOs were
:12:44. > :12:48.acting as a taxi service to migrants and people smugglers.
:12:49. > :12:52.I can see why people say that but the evidence is
:12:53. > :12:57.You only have to see the craft that they put
:12:58. > :13:01.them in to see how utterly ruthless and cynical they are.
:13:02. > :13:04.They are pushing these people out, come what
:13:05. > :13:09.may, and if we are not there, they will drown.
:13:10. > :13:19.The solution is a political solution.
:13:20. > :13:22.It is not within the remit of a humanitarian organisation to
:13:23. > :13:24.solve this, ultimately, but in the meantime
:13:25. > :13:25.this tragedy will go on
:13:26. > :13:28.unfolding and we will continue to pick up the pieces and get the blame
:13:29. > :13:30.for something only other people can solve.
:13:31. > :13:42.It is estimated that this year, a quarter of a million migrants will
:13:43. > :13:45.make the perilous journey from Libya to Italy.
:13:46. > :13:52.Several thousand will drown on the way.
:13:53. > :13:58.While this crisis continues, so, too, will criticism
:13:59. > :14:04.of the humanitarian efforts, and the message of intolerance.
:14:05. > :14:20.And you can see Our World: Sicily Overwhelmed on the BBC
:14:21. > :14:26.News Channel this Sunday at 9:30pm, and also on iPlayer.
:14:27. > :14:29.Immigration, of course, is an issue that has led to a rise
:14:30. > :14:31.in support for nationalist parties right across the European Union.
:14:32. > :14:34.One of them is the German Alternative Fur Deutschland.
:14:35. > :14:36.Their deputy leader is Beatrix Von Storch.
:14:37. > :14:41.She is also an MEP on the European Parliament's Justice ANd
:14:42. > :14:47.I spoke to her in Strasbourg just before we came on air.
:14:48. > :14:50.I asked if she would also want to stop charities sending out
:14:51. > :15:00.The NGOs are doing what the illegal migrant companies are doing.
:15:01. > :15:05.They are helping them out, they are shipping them over
:15:06. > :15:07.and so they are responsible for even more to come in.
:15:08. > :15:09.I think this has to be addressed clearly.
:15:10. > :15:11.We have to stop them from doing this.
:15:12. > :15:14.But I suspect if you did that, more migrants would drown
:15:15. > :15:20.Is that a price that you're willing to pay?
:15:21. > :15:22.No, I think the contrary will be right.
:15:23. > :15:24.If the migrants know that they will not succeed in coming
:15:25. > :15:26.over to the Mediterranean, they will not go
:15:27. > :15:31.They go on the ships and they try to cross the sea
:15:32. > :15:34.because they know they will be picked up easily after one kilometre
:15:35. > :15:40.So if they know there is no way through, they will not go
:15:41. > :15:43.on the boats and there will be less people dying.
:15:44. > :15:47.So this is what I, what we say, stopping taking them in saves lives.
:15:48. > :15:51.But I mean, many of the people with experience there say it's not
:15:52. > :15:54.that they are being pulled out by the availability of rescue boats,
:15:55. > :15:58.it's that they are being pushed out by really very unpleasant people
:15:59. > :16:01.smugglers and they would still be coming anyway.
:16:02. > :16:04.Now, are you sure that you're not basically just saying, "Let people
:16:05. > :16:12.Because what we see is everywhere where the borders are closed,
:16:13. > :16:19.When we stopped the Balkan borders, they stopped from coming
:16:20. > :16:21.because they knew there's no way through any more.
:16:22. > :16:24.And that's the same thing with the Mediterranean.
:16:25. > :16:31.If they know there is no way through, they will stop coming over
:16:32. > :16:33.and trying to reach the goal what they are going for.
:16:34. > :16:36.And there will be one group of migrants, there will be,
:16:37. > :16:38.for at least a month, maybe two months, migrants
:16:39. > :16:40.coming and drowning, before the word gets back to those
:16:41. > :16:44.in Libya or elsewhere, that you can't come any more
:16:45. > :16:51.What the rescue boats should do, they should pick them up and bring
:16:52. > :16:55.We don't want to have, to see people drowning
:16:56. > :17:04.But they, to rescue them, you don't have to take them over,
:17:05. > :17:07.basically from the Libyan border, through the whole of
:17:08. > :17:09.the Mediterranean and then to the Italian border.
:17:10. > :17:13.What has to be done is they have to be brought back to the Libyan
:17:14. > :17:16.border and then they know they will not succeed and they will
:17:17. > :17:19.Of course, we don't want to see the people drown.
:17:20. > :17:23.OK, now, this is very interesting because one of the problems is,
:17:24. > :17:25.to some extent, you can do that with Turkey.
:17:26. > :17:29.If they come out of Turkey, you can send them back to Turkey.
:17:30. > :17:31.The worry is is that Libya is a failed state.
:17:32. > :17:36.You can't just send people back to Libya where maybe
:17:37. > :17:41.Are you happy to send them back to what is a non-country,
:17:42. > :17:44.a non-functioning country at the moment?
:17:45. > :17:51.They are travelling to that country and they are waiting there for weeks
:17:52. > :17:54.or months and then one day, they step on the boat
:17:55. > :18:01.Saying they can stay there for months before they leave
:18:02. > :18:03.and then we can't send them back because it's basically
:18:04. > :18:07.a non-country, as you just said, you realise that there is something
:18:08. > :18:13.Even if we were taking something like maybe 5 million
:18:14. > :18:16.or 10 million every year, it wouldn't solve the problem
:18:17. > :18:23.of billions down in Africa who are still willing to come.
:18:24. > :18:26.So we have to address properly the problem and then we have
:18:27. > :18:29.to realise that our resources are limited and then let's do
:18:30. > :18:32.the best with our resources possible, what we can do and let
:18:33. > :18:39.But it's not, it's not very helpful to bring some over and then
:18:40. > :18:42.realising that we can't help them all in here.
:18:43. > :18:45.So we want to help, yes, but we want to help close
:18:46. > :18:50.Beatrix Von Storch, thank you so much for talking to us.
:18:51. > :19:03.Thank you. Sure.
:19:04. > :19:04.That is the view of the AFD in Germany.
:19:05. > :19:07.Pasquale Dellacciano is the Italian ambassador to the UK.
:19:08. > :19:14.Some people have said the rescue ships are like a taxi service for
:19:15. > :19:19.illegal immigrant is to come to Italy. Is that your view? In certain
:19:20. > :19:25.occasions, they may be. If they get too close to the Libyan sure, if
:19:26. > :19:28.they operate within the Libyan territorial water, they can create a
:19:29. > :19:31.poll factor. And this can be dangerous in the first place for
:19:32. > :19:37.migrant because they tend to use traffickers, tend to use very
:19:38. > :19:45.precarious vessels because they know that after a few miles, they will be
:19:46. > :19:49.safe but we don't want to stop NGOs operating and helping us to rescue
:19:50. > :19:53.more migrants. Why don't you want to stop them if you believe they may be
:19:54. > :19:58.pulling people out? Do you want to stop them very close to Libya but
:19:59. > :20:02.not in the Mediterranean? We want to adopt a code of conduct for them.
:20:03. > :20:07.They should not operate within the Libyan territorial waters. We want
:20:08. > :20:12.to know the source of their financing, who is financing them. We
:20:13. > :20:19.want to know the cruise, which are the crews of those ships. How far is
:20:20. > :20:24.the territorial water because you can imagine... 12 nautical miles.
:20:25. > :20:29.People might easily drown in the 12 miles, hundreds, presumably. No,
:20:30. > :20:33.because of course, if there is an alarm and our Coast Guard is the one
:20:34. > :20:37.who is coordinating all the rescue efforts, you would send a vessel
:20:38. > :20:42.within the territorial waters. What you shouldn't do is wait and, you
:20:43. > :20:46.know, stationed within the territorial waters and just wait for
:20:47. > :20:52.summer to arrive. OK, what about the points made by the AFD spokesperson
:20:53. > :20:59.there, that you can rescue them and then take them back to the beach in
:21:00. > :21:04.Libya? Problem solved. No, it is not solved because as you said, Libya is
:21:05. > :21:08.a failed state. You can do this with Turkey but not with Libya. Explained
:21:09. > :21:12.to the viewers why you can't do that with a failed state because she
:21:13. > :21:17.makes the point, they have chosen to go to the failed state and so, you
:21:18. > :21:21.can take you can go to the failed state but that is not something we
:21:22. > :21:27.are going to take responsibility for? What would actually happen if
:21:28. > :21:32.we took people back to Libya? Of course, you cannot guarantee that
:21:33. > :21:37.their human rights will be respected so in order to guarantee this and
:21:38. > :21:44.allow migrants to go back to Libya, you need to set up camps managed by
:21:45. > :21:49.the relevant UN agencies. And this is one thing that we are asking the
:21:50. > :21:54.European Union to do. We are asking the European Union to increase the
:21:55. > :22:00.funding for the EU Africa fund so that we can help Libya and United
:22:01. > :22:06.Nations to set up camps where migrants can be sent and be safe and
:22:07. > :22:11.be sure... That their human rights will be respected. Got you. The EU
:22:12. > :22:15.has not been great. What do you think of countries like Austria
:22:16. > :22:19.putting troops on the border to stop migrants getting in? Unfortunately,
:22:20. > :22:26.particularly in electoral times, people tend to play to the gallery.
:22:27. > :22:31.So this is obviously done for internal, domestic reasons. But how
:22:32. > :22:34.would you summarise the EU reaction because it does feel, as an external
:22:35. > :22:38.observer, we don't have a border with Italy, that everyone is very
:22:39. > :22:43.happy to say that this is Italy's problem rather than ours? Well it is
:22:44. > :22:50.quite extraordinary that we have an international operation to save
:22:51. > :22:56.lives and there is not one single migrant which is disembarked in a
:22:57. > :22:59.port which is not Italian. I mean, we have received... So a Spanish
:23:00. > :23:04.ship from an NGO could pick them up or take them to Spain... Or France,
:23:05. > :23:09.or malt, or new share. The rule is you have to take them to a safe port
:23:10. > :23:14.but how is it possible that the safe port is always necessarily Italian?
:23:15. > :23:19.It is nearest, the Italian money is always the nearest. Not necessarily,
:23:20. > :23:26.it could be to knew the water. There could be a way of sharing. -- it
:23:27. > :23:30.could be Tunisia or Malta. Last question, do you worry about the
:23:31. > :23:36.pressure on Italian civic Society of such large numbers of people coming
:23:37. > :23:42.in who are really rootless in Italy... Of course. You saw what has
:23:43. > :23:45.happened to the character of people, getting angry... Of course, we can't
:23:46. > :23:53.cope any more. It is not a problem, of course, we will not say Italy
:23:54. > :23:57.closes its ports, this is not what we're going to be but the ports will
:23:58. > :24:01.be overwhelmed very quickly. We received nearly 600,000 people over
:24:02. > :24:08.three years. It is the population of Manchester, all to Italy. And they
:24:09. > :24:12.tend to stay there. You know, there is a relocation scheme. Out of
:24:13. > :24:18.160,000 that had to move to some other European country, only 6600
:24:19. > :24:21.have left so far. A salutary thought. Thank you for joining us.
:24:22. > :24:23.The Grenfell Tower fire struck an hour short
:24:24. > :24:28.But it's a significant milestone because the Prime Minister did
:24:29. > :24:31.promise on this programme that those who lost their homes would be
:24:32. > :24:40.Here's the latest from the Grenfell Fire Response Team,
:24:41. > :24:44.which has assessed the housing needs of 158 families, most of them
:24:45. > :24:47.from the tower and some from Grenfell Walk nearby.
:24:48. > :24:56.139 families have received offers for what the Response Team say
:24:57. > :24:58.is "good quality" accommodation for at least a year.
:24:59. > :25:01.But only nine of them have actually agreed to be rehoused
:25:02. > :25:08.Some families do not wish to be contacted by the council,
:25:09. > :25:10.which leaves 120 families in emergency accommodation,
:25:11. > :25:15.seeking a more suitable offer of a place to call home.
:25:16. > :25:18.Are the authorities letting the residents down
:25:19. > :25:30.That is what the Labour group on Kensington and Chelsea Council has
:25:31. > :25:33.said the night. They claim it is all to do with saving Theresa May's face
:25:34. > :25:35.at Prime Minister's Questions tomorrow.
:25:36. > :25:37.Newsnight's Rabiya Limbada went to meet one resident
:25:38. > :25:38.who is still waiting for suitable accommodation.
:25:39. > :25:42.This is the water coming through the vent in my room, you see?
:25:43. > :25:46.It's a lot of water, pouring down through the window.
:25:47. > :25:50.Basically, they were spraying a lot of water and from the living
:25:51. > :25:52.room and from my room, I could see the flames
:25:53. > :25:55.and I hoped, you know, I prayed that the flames would not
:25:56. > :25:58.come inside because otherwise it would start the fire in the flat...
:25:59. > :26:01.Antonio Roncollato had lived in Grenfell Tower since 1990.
:26:02. > :26:04.He lived with his 26-year-old son on the tenth floor.
:26:05. > :26:07.He was rescued from his smoke-filled flat by firefighters
:26:08. > :26:12.He has been living in hotel rooms in west London
:26:13. > :26:18.The council has offered me two provisional
:26:19. > :26:25.One in Westminster and I declined because, erm,
:26:26. > :26:36.I want to be near my work and near where my relatives
:26:37. > :26:40.And the second one was a basement flat in Earl's Court,
:26:41. > :26:43.near a very busy road and that was also not
:26:44. > :26:49.Acceptable would be a two-bedroom flat, second, third floor,
:26:50. > :26:52.fifth floor, obviously with a lift if, you know, that is the case.
:26:53. > :26:55.You know, in the area where, possibly near where I work
:26:56. > :27:03.Also for the fact that my son has gone through some trauma
:27:04. > :27:06.because of what happened and he is looking for some
:27:07. > :27:15.counselling as well and is receiving some.
:27:16. > :27:18.And his mum and his auntie, you know, they want him to be
:27:19. > :27:23.Just going back to the council, have they been in contact
:27:24. > :27:25.with you regularly or are you having to chase them to understand
:27:26. > :27:27.where your application is for new housing?
:27:28. > :27:30.No, the only times they have been contacting me is to offer me those
:27:31. > :27:40.The first time, about two weeks ago, in Westminster and the second time,
:27:41. > :27:46.You will be aware, then, that again, there is,
:27:47. > :27:50.there has been a lot of criticism about the way in which the council
:27:51. > :27:52.have handled it, the way the government have handled
:27:53. > :27:55.How would you assess how it has been handled?
:27:56. > :27:57.Well, you see, this is unprecedented.
:27:58. > :28:00.This is one of those things that does not happen,
:28:01. > :28:05.It is something very, very big that has happened.
:28:06. > :28:09.Maybe, you know, it is a little bit out of the hands of some people
:28:10. > :28:13.in the local government, in the local authorities.
:28:14. > :28:16.And obviously, from the top, you receive the order, "OK,
:28:17. > :28:19.we've got to do this and we have to do that and we have
:28:20. > :28:23.It's very difficult and, you know, it's very difficult, and,
:28:24. > :28:28.What we ask is to be treated with respect, with sincerity,
:28:29. > :28:33.with honesty and treat us like human beings.
:28:34. > :28:35.There's been a lot of criticism of the council
:28:36. > :28:37.that they haven't been able to provide suitable accommodation.
:28:38. > :28:39.Do you accept that finding appropriate accommodation in this
:28:40. > :28:44.I do, but you see, we did not ask any promises
:28:45. > :28:52.OK, don't promise anything to us, that within three weeks,
:28:53. > :28:58.We want a nice place that eventually, we will be calling home.
:28:59. > :29:00.And we understand that it's very difficult.
:29:01. > :29:03.There are not so many flats available, not so many, you know,
:29:04. > :29:08.But be sincere, be honest with us but give us something, you know,
:29:09. > :29:12.nice, that will match exactly the sort of comfort
:29:13. > :29:21.We did ask if a member of the Cabinet
:29:22. > :29:23.or the Shadow Cabinet was available this
:29:24. > :29:29.The North Koreans say they have, for the first time,
:29:30. > :29:31.successfully launched an intercontinental
:29:32. > :29:35.They reportedly sent it up to a height of 2,800 kilometres,
:29:36. > :29:37.which is seven times higher than the International
:29:38. > :29:42.It flew for 39 minutes before it came down into the sea of Japan.
:29:43. > :29:47.Interesting choice of day to do it - July 4th, US Independence Day.
:29:48. > :29:51.Experts say this missile could in principle reach Alaska.
:29:52. > :29:58.The US has called for a UN Security Council meeting tomorrow.
:29:59. > :30:00.Earlier, I spoke to Dr Sue Mi Terry of Columbia University.
:30:01. > :30:03.She is a Korea-watcher and until recently an intelligence
:30:04. > :30:06.officer with both the CIA and the US National Security Council.
:30:07. > :30:16.I spoke to her in the South Korean capital, Seoul.
:30:17. > :30:21.I asked her where this leaves North Korea's nuclear capability.
:30:22. > :30:25.Well, they are very close to perfecting their nuclear
:30:26. > :30:29.programme, and what their final goal is, to be able to have
:30:30. > :30:31.a nuclear-tipped intercontinental ballistic missile that could hit
:30:32. > :30:34.Right now, if this missile can reach Alaska, we are very close
:30:35. > :30:41.to the North having that capability to reach mainland United States.
:30:42. > :30:44.For the US, it always seemed like the goal was,
:30:45. > :30:48.you've got to destroy any weapon system in North Korea
:30:49. > :30:55.Clearly, it's too late now, isn't it?
:30:56. > :30:56.Clearly, we've been working for three...
:30:57. > :30:59.US administrations have been working towards this goal of ending
:31:00. > :31:02.North Korea's nuclear programme and clearly it's too late.
:31:03. > :31:05.I met North Koreans earlier this month and they've said we are never
:31:06. > :31:09.giving up nuclear weapons, we are so close to perfecting
:31:10. > :31:12.the nuclear weapons programme, we are very close to it,
:31:13. > :31:21.And you don't think there's any solution from talking
:31:22. > :31:23.to the North Koreans, discussing with them, diplomacy?
:31:24. > :31:27.There is no political way of persuading them out of that goal?
:31:28. > :31:33.Earlier this month, I tried to see if there was any
:31:34. > :31:38.room for negotiations, but the North Koreans were adamant
:31:39. > :31:40.that if you're talking about de-nuclearisation
:31:41. > :31:42.or their nuclear programme, that subject is off the table.
:31:43. > :31:52.They are very close to concluding their programme and achieving
:31:53. > :31:53.this final deterrent against the United States
:31:54. > :31:56.Nuclear weapons are no longer negotiable.
:31:57. > :32:06.What can the US, the world do in light of this clear threat?
:32:07. > :32:09.The Trump administration is now finding out, Mr Trump is finding
:32:10. > :32:11.out why this is such a difficult problem.
:32:12. > :32:14.There are not a whole lot of options despite what he says,
:32:15. > :32:18.Really, we are now looking at more sanctions, enhancing,
:32:19. > :32:20.broadening sanctions, and trying to pursue secondary
:32:21. > :32:22.sanctions against Chinese banks and entities that do
:32:23. > :32:25.lots of business with North Korea to see if China can do more
:32:26. > :32:30.And moving into deterrents, there are not a whole lot
:32:31. > :32:37.Do you imagine North Korea might ever use its weapons,
:32:38. > :32:44.They are not going to just pre-emptively use it.
:32:45. > :32:47.They know it would mean the end of the regime and the end
:32:48. > :32:54.But if they thought we are entering regime change mode, or if military
:32:55. > :32:58.conflict was on the way, I can absolutely see them using it.
:32:59. > :33:02.In fact, the North Koreans have told me they will use it.
:33:03. > :33:06.They did not spend years of hardship pursuing this nuclear weapons
:33:07. > :33:09.programme just to perish without using them.
:33:10. > :33:24.and talking to but not an altogether happy message.
:33:25. > :33:27.It is Pride in London this weekend, the main celebration of all things
:33:28. > :33:30.Rainbow flags festoon shops and offices in the city,
:33:31. > :33:33.particularly those on the route of the parade that'll be
:33:34. > :33:37.It is fair to say that in the course of a lifetime, social
:33:38. > :33:39.attitudes towards homosexuality have changed very dramatically.
:33:40. > :33:41.After all, 50 years ago on this very day,
:33:42. > :33:43.parliament was busy debating whether it should be decriminalised.
:33:44. > :33:46.Well, that lifetime of change has been documented in a new memoir
:33:47. > :33:49.from a man who's been at the centre of the battle for gay acceptance
:33:50. > :33:54.for decades over in the US, that has obviously inspired much
:33:55. > :34:04.From the '60s, San Francisco was beginning to lead the world
:34:05. > :34:11.By the '70s, it was the unrivalled global gay capital.
:34:12. > :34:13.I think what we should do, what happens is what
:34:14. > :34:17.In 1977, Harvey Milk became the city's first openly
:34:18. > :34:26.But even there, progress was deeply painful.
:34:27. > :34:30.Both Mayor Mosconi and supervisor Harvey milk have
:34:31. > :34:39.The killing of America's most prominent gay politician
:34:40. > :34:42.and the lenient sentencing of his killer caused shock,
:34:43. > :34:47.triggered riots and it helped inspire one of Milk's proteges,
:34:48. > :34:52.Cleve Jones, into a life of political activism.
:34:53. > :34:58.I think, you know, this idea that, erm, gays are going to take over
:34:59. > :35:04.I, I think it's amusing when I hear that because they say when,
:35:05. > :35:07.when gay people walk down the street holding hands, instead
:35:08. > :35:09.of taking that as a simple display of affection,
:35:10. > :35:12.it is this horrendous thing we are flaunting.
:35:13. > :35:14.In the '80s, as AIDS took so many gay lives,
:35:15. > :35:18.it was Jones that conceived of the AIDS Memorial Quilt,
:35:19. > :35:21.the world's largest piece of community folk art,
:35:22. > :35:30.To remember the dead, we have sewn panels onto this ever-growing quilt.
:35:31. > :35:34.A television miniseries partly based on Jones' memoir, When We Rise,
:35:35. > :35:38.was released in the US earlier this year.
:35:39. > :35:46.What happened in the US had its effect here.
:35:47. > :35:50.The Pride march in London in 1979 was then the largest assembly of gay
:35:51. > :35:58.But four decades on, it's blossomed into something
:35:59. > :36:02.These days, corporate and official Britain is literally keen
:36:03. > :36:11.I spoke to Cleve Jones and asked him if, as a teenager,
:36:12. > :36:15.he could ever have imagined things changing so much.
:36:16. > :36:18.No, not at all and I don't think any of us did.
:36:19. > :36:21.In fact, I would say that many of the things we've
:36:22. > :36:23.accomplished weren't even on our wish list.
:36:24. > :36:25.Marriage equality certainly was something I did not
:36:26. > :36:33.What's the lesson on how to campaign?
:36:34. > :36:36.You worked with one of the best, Harvey Milk, who was later
:36:37. > :36:39.assassinated, of course, as a supervisor on the San Francisco City
:36:40. > :36:48.But you saw how you got change through campaigning.
:36:49. > :36:51.One of the things that Harvey kept saying
:36:52. > :36:54.over and over was that everyone had to come out.
:36:55. > :36:55.He was mistrustful of media campaigns.
:36:56. > :36:58.He was a believer in retail politics, going
:36:59. > :37:01.And even today, I work primarily within
:37:02. > :37:02.the labour movement in the United States
:37:03. > :37:04.today and even today, I see
:37:05. > :37:12.the power of storytelling, as we bring together workers
:37:13. > :37:14.of different ethnicities and genders and
:37:15. > :37:16.backgrounds to fight the good fight for the, you know,
:37:17. > :37:21.workers are always there on the marches,
:37:22. > :37:25.The left, of course, captured and supported the cause
:37:26. > :37:29.Has that made you innately left-wing?
:37:30. > :37:32.Is the LGBT cause innately a left-wing one, do you
:37:33. > :37:39.No, I wouldn't say that but I would say that I have always
:37:40. > :37:41.believed in the larger struggle and I have
:37:42. > :37:42.always been grateful that the
:37:43. > :37:47.We had to fight a long time to be included.
:37:48. > :37:51.We had to fight the Democratic party a long time to be included in the
:37:52. > :37:53.platform, so all of these are advances.
:37:54. > :37:57.celebrate every time a Republican comes around.
:37:58. > :38:00.I would say that neither the Liberals nor the
:38:01. > :38:05.Conservatives own this issue or my community.
:38:06. > :38:07.The book, the memoir of your life, you've kept everything
:38:08. > :38:12.You've had a lot of love in your life.
:38:13. > :38:14.People reading it will learn about the train journeys
:38:15. > :38:17.where you meet somebody or walking through the cemetery and you meet
:38:18. > :38:20.What do you think the straights will think when they read
:38:21. > :38:24.just about how many, and how easily you have found it to have
:38:25. > :38:27.Well, I've been delighted by the response from
:38:28. > :38:36.I was a little afraid that the only people who would read
:38:37. > :38:39.it were old, white, gay men who went through it with me.
:38:40. > :38:43.And I think today, people are desperate for
:38:44. > :38:45.strategies and answers and encouragement and hope for their
:38:46. > :38:50.Some of them are finding it in my book and that is just a
:38:51. > :38:53.Do you think the position the LGBT community has
:38:54. > :38:55.arrived at in terms of acceptance in most
:38:56. > :38:57.Western countries now, do you
:38:58. > :39:01.I mean in the United States, President Trump,
:39:02. > :39:12.Honestly, I would have to say that yes, everything LGBT people have won
:39:13. > :39:19.But I would say that that's not even my greatest concern.
:39:20. > :39:28.I think that our president has turned so many things upside down,
:39:29. > :39:34.As a member of the LGBT community I'm concerned
:39:35. > :39:37.but if I was living in Poland or Latvia or Lithuania, I think I
:39:38. > :39:43.We are in uncharted waters and really,
:39:44. > :39:46.quite frankly, I think anything could happen and I find it
:39:47. > :39:59.I hope to continue to change the hearts and minds of ordinary
:40:00. > :40:01.people so that they can, you know, accept and love their children.
:40:02. > :40:04.We still have an appallingly high suicide rate among gay and
:40:05. > :40:10.It makes me very sad because I used to be one of
:40:11. > :40:11.those children and was considering suicide.
:40:12. > :40:17.Do you ever see a day when we won't...
:40:18. > :40:19.When it will be boring to read about a gay struggle?
:40:20. > :40:22.Well, that's why I left all the sex in!
:40:23. > :40:27.Cleve Jones, thank you very much indeed.
:40:28. > :40:33.Before we go, if you watched Doctor Who on Saturday,
:40:34. > :40:36.there were some pretty heavy meta hints that the next
:40:37. > :40:44.Well, you know how I'm usually all about women and...
:40:45. > :41:03.Well, bookies' favourite Phoebe Waller-Bridge of Fleabag fame
:41:04. > :41:06.has denied she's going to be the first female Doctor.
:41:07. > :41:10.But then, Joanna Lumley has already done the role, so that
:41:11. > :41:14.And in a recent interview for Gold Derby on Youtube,
:41:15. > :41:16.Phoebe may already have given the game away.
:41:17. > :41:28.Not allowed to say anything about that one way or the other.
:41:29. > :41:56.Warmer weather spreads over the UK. Parts of southern England getting
:41:57. > :41:58.close to 30. A lot of