:00:00. > :00:12.Do you want the journey to Brexit to be a slow Wade, or would you rather
:00:13. > :00:16.it was a fast, clean leap into our new arrangement? It's becoming a
:00:17. > :00:21.refight of the battle between remain and leave. The transitional
:00:22. > :00:27.arrangements, how fast we exit, is a slow transition simply a ploy to
:00:28. > :00:31.stop Brexit all together? The old and tired phrase, it looks like a
:00:32. > :00:36.duck, walks like a ducks, quacks like a duck - it is a duck and the
:00:37. > :00:41.soft Brexiteers are in fact people who've always rejected the result.
:00:42. > :00:44.We'll debate the pros and cons of different transitional plans. Is
:00:45. > :00:48.this the future of Counter-Terrorism? Automatic
:00:49. > :00:53.monitoring of suspects on a database watch list. We have got to be
:00:54. > :00:57.vigilant all the time and mustn't let our guard down. We must use the
:00:58. > :01:02.latest technology to take the fight to the terrorists. Grenfell - a new
:01:03. > :01:05.Deputy Leader of Kensington and Chelsea Council and he's taking over
:01:06. > :01:10.the authority's response to the fire. We meet him. I think the
:01:11. > :01:17.mistake was that we thought that we could do this on our own. And the
:01:18. > :01:21.scale was much, much lanker. If I was going to point to the biggest
:01:22. > :01:23.thing, we delayed before we started engaging on a national level and
:01:24. > :01:37.getting support. Hello. The Brexit talks between
:01:38. > :01:41.Britain and the EU carried on again today. The sides are still stuck on
:01:42. > :01:46.the divorce bill and citizens' rights. More on that shortly. Away
:01:47. > :01:51.from the negotiation with them in the EU, there is something of a
:01:52. > :01:56.negotiation going on here within the UK, or more precisely within the UK
:01:57. > :01:59.Government. It's about a potential transitional arrangement, the day we
:02:00. > :02:03.leave the EU - how long does the transition need to be and xa exactly
:02:04. > :02:06.happens in it? It's becoming the central divisive question in the
:02:07. > :02:10.Conservative Party on how Brexit should proceed. Our Political
:02:11. > :02:14.Editor, Nick watt is with me. Nick, let's just start on the negotiations
:02:15. > :02:19.with the EU first, the ones today. How are they progressing? Today was
:02:20. > :02:23.round two of the Brexit divorce talks in Brussels between David
:02:24. > :02:28.Davis, as you see there, and Michel Barnier, the EU's chief negotiator.
:02:29. > :02:32.Supporters of the Brexit secretary said the talks went much better than
:02:33. > :02:38.expected on two of the key areas, progress on the rights of EU
:02:39. > :02:42.citizens and on Northern Ireland. The big difficulty is the money. The
:02:43. > :02:47.UK's made clear there is absolutely no way it's going to pay the ?100
:02:48. > :02:50.billion euros that has been mentioned in Brussels. I spoke to a
:02:51. > :02:54.senior source who said that if the UK was able to say it reduced that
:02:55. > :02:59.figure by say around two thirds, then it may be up for paying what
:03:00. > :03:05.would still be a substantial sum of money. Now, the reason why that's
:03:06. > :03:09.important is that Michel Barnier gave a much less upbeat assessment
:03:10. > :03:11.and he said the UK has got to clarify its position on that
:03:12. > :03:16.payment. Right. I mean that's all the
:03:17. > :03:19.immediate stuff isn't it. Let's think about the issues coming down
:03:20. > :03:24.the line. This particular one of transition? That's right. The focus
:03:25. > :03:28.in Brussels is on the immediate sort of divorce arrangement but the
:03:29. > :03:33.debate in the UK has been on the immediate period after the UK leaves
:03:34. > :03:36.the EU in the spring of 2019. Now, in her Lancaster House speech in
:03:37. > :03:41.January, the Prime Minister talked about how there would have to be an
:03:42. > :03:46.implementation phase between leaving the EU and then fully agreeing that
:03:47. > :03:50.future trading relationship. Now, since the election, a rather bullish
:03:51. > :03:55.Philip Hammond who of course voted Remain in the general election, he's
:03:56. > :04:01.been talking about a transition period of a couple of years. That
:04:02. > :04:05.would involve a very close relationship with the core bodies
:04:06. > :04:10.and institutions of the EU. I've been looking at the debate in
:04:11. > :04:18.Cabinet on the highly charged issue of that transitional phase.
:04:19. > :04:22.MUSIC You can have a transition agreement
:04:23. > :04:26.that keeps as little disruption as possible. We are not going to be
:04:27. > :04:31.talking a couple of months, it will be a couple of years. It has to have
:04:32. > :04:36.an end date. To transition or not to transition? That is the question
:04:37. > :04:40.that's been dividing ministers. Whether Britain should sever its
:04:41. > :04:46.formal links with the EU at the point of departure or whether the UK
:04:47. > :04:51.should move at a slower pace as lain at the heart of recent Cabinet
:04:52. > :04:54.squabbling. In the so-called soft Brexit corner stands Philip Hammond
:04:55. > :05:00.who's called for a transitional period of a couple of years after
:05:01. > :05:04.the UK leaves the EU. Over in the hard Brexit corner stands Liam Fox
:05:05. > :05:08.who echoed the Prime Minister's language when he talked recently of
:05:09. > :05:13.an implementation phase lasting a few months. Allies of the Chancellor
:05:14. > :05:17.say Philip Hammond is increasingly confident that Cabinet Ministers are
:05:18. > :05:22.coming round to his view as they heed his warnings about a cliff edge
:05:23. > :05:27.Brexit. There is talk about how pragmatic leaves will accept what is
:05:28. > :05:31.described as Norway plus, associate status within the single market, a
:05:32. > :05:36.looser relationship with the customs union, to allow the UK to negotiate
:05:37. > :05:42.free trade deals around the world and a special court to end the deaf
:05:43. > :05:47.intive jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice over the UK --
:05:48. > :05:49.definitive. The Chancellor's camp say the blueprint represents a
:05:50. > :05:54.challenge to Brussels which is saying the UK should be subject to
:05:55. > :05:59.all of the rules of the EU during a transition period. A Remain
:06:00. > :06:04.supporter even talks of maintaining the status quo for a limited period.
:06:05. > :06:10.Even though we have left the EU at that period, for the time scale that
:06:11. > :06:15.it would take to negotiate a new trade agreement, so maybe a couple
:06:16. > :06:21.of years, we would still keep the same status quo to give businesses
:06:22. > :06:25.certainty and to give them time to adjust to the new economic
:06:26. > :06:30.arrangements. Liam Fox slightly changed tack this week when he said
:06:31. > :06:33.he wouldn't be troubled been aimplementation phase lasting two
:06:34. > :06:39.years. One leading Brexit supporter is wary of talk about a transition
:06:40. > :06:42.period. Well then we are only out of the European Union in some
:06:43. > :06:46.theological sense that if we are subject to rules of the single
:06:47. > :06:51.market, the regulations of the single market, we are subject to the
:06:52. > :06:55.European Court of Justice, we are paying for the privilege and can't
:06:56. > :06:58.do free trade deals with the rest of the world, we are in the European
:06:59. > :07:03.Union and the old and tired phrase, it walks and talks and quacks like a
:07:04. > :07:09.duck, it is a duck. These soft Brexiteers are in fact people who've
:07:10. > :07:12.always rejected the result of the referendum there, the Tony Blairs of
:07:13. > :07:15.this world who wish it hadn't happened and think that they can
:07:16. > :07:20.magic it away. I don't think the British voters will accept that.
:07:21. > :07:25.Jacob Rees-Mogg believes under most scenarios, a transitional phase may
:07:26. > :07:31.not even be necessary. If the talks are going well, and we know in
:07:32. > :07:35.advance, some margin in advance of 2019 that there will be an
:07:36. > :07:39.agreement, then any implementation period will be very short. If on the
:07:40. > :07:43.other hand the talks are going very badly, then it will be too late to
:07:44. > :07:48.announce an implementation programme right at the end because people will
:07:49. > :07:53.need to have made plans for no agreement. On either basis, there's
:07:54. > :07:58.not much for an implementation to take care of. Either it's terrible
:07:59. > :08:04.and it's too late, or it's gone well and then you've already got time to
:08:05. > :08:08.implement between the talks being concluded and the final date of our
:08:09. > :08:15.leaving. As Parliament finally breaks up for the summer recess,
:08:16. > :08:20.there are tentative signs of the Cabinet coaling around a transition
:08:21. > :08:25.period last ago few years -- co Al elsing. Brexit supporters remain
:08:26. > :08:28.deeply suspicious. Nick, what there would the debate
:08:29. > :08:32.within the Conservative Party about the need for a transitional period
:08:33. > :08:38.or not. Let's work through the substance of that now. Do we need
:08:39. > :08:41.one? I'm joined by Stephen Bullock, whose job did once involve
:08:42. > :08:46.negotiating with the other member states. Ukip's Suzanne Evans also
:08:47. > :08:53.joins me. Stephen can you perhaps explain why you think we do need
:08:54. > :08:57.some kind of transition? I think the two clear reasons why a transition
:08:58. > :09:03.is absolutely necessary are, I think the first reason is that there is
:09:04. > :09:07.simply no chance in the time available of fully comprehensive
:09:08. > :09:13.Free Trade Agreement being agreed. I think we'll be or should be very
:09:14. > :09:18.grateful if the divorce agreement and some agreement on the future
:09:19. > :09:22.relationship including possibly a set of principles and possibly a
:09:23. > :09:25.transitional arrangement, if that's what the UK wants, be agreed by the
:09:26. > :09:33.end of that time. I think there is no chance of getting the FTA. The
:09:34. > :09:38.level of complexity involved also, that simply requires a much longer
:09:39. > :09:42.amount of... Longer, you just said longer. That was the word. How long?
:09:43. > :09:46.What do you think it needs to be as does it have to have a final date
:09:47. > :09:52.before we go in, or do you basically think it can be indefinite? Well,
:09:53. > :09:55.personally I wouldn't mind if it was indefinite. I think the European
:09:56. > :10:02.Parliament's said very clearly that it would want it to be having a
:10:03. > :10:07.clear end date and they wouldn't want it to be some sort of half way
:10:08. > :10:11.house permanently. I don't think it's in the EU's interests to want
:10:12. > :10:15.that to be permanent with the ever present threat that the UK then
:10:16. > :10:19.decides it wants to end the arrangement or start a new
:10:20. > :10:23.arrangement, then we have to go through a similar process than the
:10:24. > :10:26.one we are going through now again. Suzanne Evans, do you think we can
:10:27. > :10:30.get away without any transition, is that really possible? This is what
:10:31. > :10:33.we were told. Going back to the EU referendum campaign, I don't recall
:10:34. > :10:37.the word transition being used once. This is a ruse that has been brought
:10:38. > :10:42.in by the people that want us to stay in. Fascinating to hear Stephen
:10:43. > :10:45.talking about, it's not in the EU interest to keep the transition
:10:46. > :10:49.phase going forever. Of course it is, we are a major net contributor
:10:50. > :10:53.and will be subject to their laws and migration controls. We won't
:10:54. > :10:56.have any freedom at all. The fact is, the people of Britain know
:10:57. > :11:01.exactly what they voted for, they voted to take back control of our
:11:02. > :11:06.minute, our laws and borders -- our money, our laws and borders. We are
:11:07. > :11:11.not going to be take back any of those for goodness knows how long.
:11:12. > :11:15.We either leave in March 2019 or are held hostage for an indefinite
:11:16. > :11:18.period of time. Why is it so bindery, what is the hurry because
:11:19. > :11:22.it's quite possible we won't be ready to leave then but we will be
:11:23. > :11:27.ready to leave a year or 18 months, two years later? This is always
:11:28. > :11:31.Ukip's concern about doing the Article 50 route, that lays out a
:11:32. > :11:36.two-year period. If it's not possible to do it in two years, why
:11:37. > :11:40.did Article 50 say it should be possible. The whole thing is utter
:11:41. > :11:44.nonsense, clearly a ruse. As for the Free Trade Agreement that's
:11:45. > :11:48.apparently going to take a huge length of time, Free Trade
:11:49. > :11:52.Agreements are struck around the world without 28 countries having to
:11:53. > :11:56.agree in a matter of months. The only reason we won't potentially be
:11:57. > :12:00.able to do a Free Trade Agreement is because the European Union is
:12:01. > :12:04.expressly forbidding us from starting those negotiations with
:12:05. > :12:09.other countries now. So it's a bit of a false argument. One can't help
:12:10. > :12:13.but feel there is there something to be said, Stephen, that you do just
:12:14. > :12:15.want to delay Brexit or stop it all together and hope that maybe after
:12:16. > :12:19.two years something else come ace long and we never go through with
:12:20. > :12:25.it. Isn't that deep down what you are really saying? Well, my personal
:12:26. > :12:29.view as a Remain voter are that we should scrap Brexit as we have
:12:30. > :12:34.discovered that it's unbelievably harmful to the UK or going to be.
:12:35. > :12:38.There was a landmark study done by the UK in the changing EU at Kings
:12:39. > :12:43.College today, it was released today, it showed very clearly that
:12:44. > :12:45.leaving without a deal would be absolutely catastrophic,
:12:46. > :12:50.particularly economically. All economic predictions are that it
:12:51. > :12:52.will be a catastrophe. The leave campaign promised it would be
:12:53. > :12:56.excellent and that there would be lots of money flowing, that we could
:12:57. > :13:01.use for lots of lovely things. That's not what's going to happen. .
:13:02. > :13:10.The point is that there are a series of realities here, such as food
:13:11. > :13:13.standards, aviation, we have seen it with Euroton over medical treatment,
:13:14. > :13:18.all this needs agreement. That is very helpful but let's take the
:13:19. > :13:22.specifics and put them to Suzanne. Michael O'Leary of Ryanair said
:13:23. > :13:25.timetables are coming out in a year, they need to know whether they are
:13:26. > :13:33.allowed to fly and it's not fixed up. If you ask Michael O'Leary and
:13:34. > :13:36.Stephen, they would say they want the transition period to go on for a
:13:37. > :13:39.long time because they don't want it. If they play hard ball and say
:13:40. > :13:43.we are not talking to you, what will happen? I don't think we will be
:13:44. > :13:47.playing hard ball on aviation rights. We'll be begging them to let
:13:48. > :13:51.them fly into their air space? The same with trade. Stephen said the
:13:52. > :13:59.economic case will be disastrous if we leave. That's not true. If we
:14:00. > :14:02.have tariffs and trade under World Trade Organisation terms, that will
:14:03. > :14:06.bring economic benefit of ?12.7 billion. What happens on aviation
:14:07. > :14:12.rights. Supposing they say we are waiting for a proper negotiation and
:14:13. > :14:17.we say no, we are leaving, what happens? There is no treaty
:14:18. > :14:24.governing... But that's not going to happen, is it? Stephen is it going
:14:25. > :14:27.to happen, is it going to be said that you can't have nuclear
:14:28. > :14:30.materials and fly out of Heathrow Airport? I think it's actually
:14:31. > :14:35.slightly worse than the aviation market. Everyone talks about the
:14:36. > :14:39.aviation market. I only found out recently that aviation safety is
:14:40. > :14:44.currently done by an EU agency which is covered by the ECJ, as they all
:14:45. > :14:49.are, and that the UK doesn't have its own capacity for the
:14:50. > :14:53.certification of the people who repair aeroplanes. At the moment
:14:54. > :14:56.they have 19 months to establish a regulatory framework on the and to
:14:57. > :15:02.recruit and train people to be able to do that. My point is that there
:15:03. > :15:04.are literally hundreds, it's a 40-year complicated relationship,
:15:05. > :15:09.there are hundreds of areas that keep cropping up. Every time I run
:15:10. > :15:12.into a sector expert in Brussels he tells me about the difficulties that
:15:13. > :15:18.there are going to be in his area. I'd never thought of the energy
:15:19. > :15:24.market, for example, I know that energy experts thought about Euroton
:15:25. > :15:31.and Isotopes. We are going to see more of these moments that we didn't
:15:32. > :15:36.realise... Suzanne, she is shrugging in a weary way as though she's heard
:15:37. > :15:37.it all before. I'm sure she is because she believes in Brexit at
:15:38. > :15:50.any cost to the economy. This idea of the cliff edge, the
:15:51. > :15:55.fact is, this shows how deeply embedded we have got into the
:15:56. > :16:04.European Union. This is what we have to get out of. Is it whether we have
:16:05. > :16:10.time to create border posts and understand the structure? To you
:16:11. > :16:14.except we need even now we need some sort of transitional period? We
:16:15. > :16:20.should be doing that right now, that is the issue, what we can do right
:16:21. > :16:25.now, this is about Article 50, this slow move progress, designed not to
:16:26. > :16:32.allow countries to leave but to keep them in. If we were to repeal the
:16:33. > :16:36.1970s European Communities Act, ultimately it would have been to our
:16:37. > :16:49.benefit. Thank you both very much. We have to leave it there. Time now
:16:50. > :16:51.for a Viewsnight - the part of the programme where we give space for
:16:52. > :16:54.original and provocative opinion. Tonight we hear from Naomi Klein -
:16:55. > :16:55.activist and author of "No is Not Enough - defeating the New Shock
:16:56. > :18:56.Politics". At the centre of the hapless
:18:57. > :19:01.response to the Grenfell Tower fire is a London borough,
:19:02. > :19:03.the Royal Borough of By universal acknowledgement,
:19:04. > :19:07.it failed to rise to the challenge. And as the owner of the building
:19:08. > :19:10.and inspector of building works, it is in line
:19:11. > :19:14.for other criticism, too. Those who survived the fire
:19:15. > :19:16.are understandably angry at the council -
:19:17. > :19:18.and that erupted last night at a council meeting which confirmed
:19:19. > :19:29.in post a new council leader. Well, the Communities Secretary,
:19:30. > :19:34.Sajid Javid, updated the Commons today on Grenfell and made the point
:19:35. > :19:37.that the council won't be trusted The initial response
:19:38. > :19:40.from the local authority There is not a lot of trust there,
:19:41. > :19:47.not a lot of confidence. And that is why, once Kensington
:19:48. > :19:50.and Chelsea Council takes over the recovery operation,
:19:51. > :19:54.it will do so under the supervision of the independent
:19:55. > :20:01.Grenfell Recovery Task Force. It is there to provide advice
:20:02. > :20:04.and support and see to it that the council does the job
:20:05. > :20:07.that is required of it. The council has now at least
:20:08. > :20:09.appointed a deputy leader, who is to take responsibility
:20:10. > :20:13.for the Grenfell response. His name is Kim Taylor-Smith,
:20:14. > :20:24.and I met him at the council I asked him where he thought the
:20:25. > :20:27.council had gone wrong in the response to the disaster.
:20:28. > :20:30.I think the mistake was that we thought we could do this
:20:31. > :20:33.on our own and the scale was much, much larger and I think
:20:34. > :20:35.if I was going to point to the biggest thing,
:20:36. > :20:40.we delayed before we started engaging on a national
:20:41. > :20:48.I was talking to somebody today and they were criticising this and
:20:49. > :20:55.We have two people in our comms department and we had 5000 people
:20:56. > :20:59.They just weren't able to deal with this scale.
:21:00. > :21:01.It seems remarkable that you didn't throw money at it?
:21:02. > :21:05.You have huge reserves as a council, ?274 million.
:21:06. > :21:08.Well, we obviously do have large reserves and thank goodness we do
:21:09. > :21:10.because obviously the application of those is going to be
:21:11. > :21:14.As far as specifically, on the first day, we booked 350 hotels,
:21:15. > :21:18.Money wasn't a limiting factor in terms of that,
:21:19. > :21:29.We were giving emergency payments as well.
:21:30. > :21:31.When Nick Paget-Brown, the former leader, when he stepped
:21:32. > :21:34.down, he talked about perceived failings of the council and he
:21:35. > :21:37.Can I ask whether you think there are perceived failings
:21:38. > :21:41.I think I have to be a little bit careful.
:21:42. > :21:43.There is going to be an enquiry on this.
:21:44. > :21:47.Certainly, from my perspective, there were a lot of things
:21:48. > :21:51.that we could have done better and a lot of things that we should
:21:52. > :21:56.So I think we have failed as far as our local
:21:57. > :22:13.Can I ask why you would be hesitant to say that there were failings?
:22:14. > :22:16.Because to most of us it is so obvious there were failings,
:22:17. > :22:19.there should be no hesitation in just saying, we failed.
:22:20. > :22:23.It is not that it could have been better, it was terrible.
:22:24. > :22:25.And the council let people down very badly.
:22:26. > :22:33.Where I feel quite strongly is that we have officers in this
:22:34. > :22:40.situation, not councillors, we have officers in this time
:22:41. > :22:43.of situation who have worked incredibly hard and from day one,
:22:44. > :22:49.and they have a shadow cast over them in terms of the overall review
:22:50. > :22:55.So, I am going to be a little bit guarded in terms of laying criticism
:22:56. > :22:59.So, last year, the council took ?55 million in social rent.
:23:00. > :23:01.And invested less than that back in social housing.
:23:02. > :23:04.Is it appropriate for a council effectively to make money,
:23:05. > :23:06.to see social housing as a moneymaking operation
:23:07. > :23:07.as opposed to a money spending operation?
:23:08. > :23:10.First of all, the numbers you have quoted, you have given
:23:11. > :23:13.a gross figure of rents, in terms of net it is actually
:23:14. > :23:15.about ?11 million a year, which is still a sizeable
:23:16. > :23:18.Again, I don't want to sound evasive.
:23:19. > :23:22.On why that wasn't spent or how that was spent.
:23:23. > :23:25.Certainly as far as the commitment we have given, we have committed
:23:26. > :23:28.to do 400 houses within the next five years and we have
:23:29. > :23:33.I really want to look forward in terms of what is going to happen
:23:34. > :23:37.rather than what has happened in the past.
:23:38. > :23:45.It has been easy to write this disaster up as a council that was
:23:46. > :23:50.too good at looking after wealthier residents, the majority in the area,
:23:51. > :23:56.and was not concerned really about the poor residents. Do you think
:23:57. > :24:04.that is a reasonable way of looking at what happened at Grenfell? No, in
:24:05. > :24:11.terms of investing to a certain sector, if we go to Grenfell, that
:24:12. > :24:16.was part of the ?60 million investment, there was the new
:24:17. > :24:22.school, with 1000 local children, there was a new sports Academy and
:24:23. > :24:27.refurbishment of the Grenfell Tower, all from local people. Not
:24:28. > :24:31.gentrification. A lot of people said, the purpose of the cladding
:24:32. > :24:36.was to make it look nice for the richer residents who lived around it
:24:37. > :24:40.so they did not have to look at the old Grenfell Tower? Is there
:24:41. > :24:43.something in that? I totally disagree. If you are going to
:24:44. > :24:53.refurbish the building, why would you not want the building to improve
:24:54. > :24:56.how would looks? The meeting last night, the Grenfell Action Group,
:24:57. > :25:01.the leader said he was appalled by the behaviour of councillors, there
:25:02. > :25:04.was whispering and giggling, would you answer that? If that behaviour
:25:05. > :25:08.was going on I was not aware of that from where I was sitting and I would
:25:09. > :25:16.not condone that. He said the council are managing this as a PR
:25:17. > :25:22.disaster. Public relations, rather than as an actual disaster. Any
:25:23. > :25:28.fairness in that? I am not sure we have done a lot of PR in order to
:25:29. > :25:32.manage the disaster and of the work, we have seemingly failed in terms of
:25:33. > :25:36.that. Some people would say that after such a calamity, the
:25:37. > :25:41.appropriate thing is for people who warned about this or who wanted
:25:42. > :25:46.change beforehand are the ones to take over, not the people who were
:25:47. > :25:51.in charge beforehand? We have an election in May, we also have to
:25:52. > :25:58.keep the wheels on the bus, this is a large borough and there is a lot
:25:59. > :26:01.of things we do well so there is benefit to continuity and the skill
:26:02. > :26:07.sets of the people we have got within the new Cabinet, whilst I
:26:08. > :26:11.accept what you say in terms of trust and mistrust, they are the
:26:12. > :26:15.right people to do this. Kim Taylor-Smith, thank you very much.
:26:16. > :26:17.It is fairly routine these days for cameras to be programmed
:26:18. > :26:24.But Newsnight has learned that highly advanced computer technology
:26:25. > :26:27.is being tested here at the far more complicated task of
:26:28. > :26:31.The idea is that it can help keep tabs on terrorist suspects.
:26:32. > :26:34.The technology works by comparing images of suspects on a terrorist
:26:35. > :26:37.watch list with the images of people who pass special cameras
:26:38. > :26:41.Alerts can be triggered if they approach high-profile
:26:42. > :26:43.targets, for example, or if they associate with other
:26:44. > :27:00.Could these face recognition cameras become as common as CCTV?
:27:01. > :27:08.The scale of the thread is huge, three terrorist attacks this year,
:27:09. > :27:12.35 people dead. Five attacks have been stopped in the past four
:27:13. > :27:17.months, some have told Newsnight it is time for a new approach. Is this
:27:18. > :27:23.the future of counterterrorism in the UK? Affects surveillance camera
:27:24. > :27:28.monitors people coming out of the building. Most are not on any
:27:29. > :27:34.terrorist watch list. But this person is. And his face is
:27:35. > :27:43.recognised automatically. Triggering an alert. With 23,000 now on the
:27:44. > :27:47.watch list, is this the way forward? It is impossible to use conventional
:27:48. > :27:53.means against that number of people, it cannot be done. The arithmetic,
:27:54. > :27:58.it cannot be done. The technology is able to do that job right now and
:27:59. > :28:01.therefore it is the responsibility of society and politicians to decide
:28:02. > :28:08.what is the appropriate way that might be deployed. We do need to
:28:09. > :28:14.debate to start to use these images in a more intimate and aggressive
:28:15. > :28:20.and more defined way. After the suicide bombing at the Manchester
:28:21. > :28:24.Arena in May, MI5 let it be known that 23,000 people in the UK have
:28:25. > :28:32.had links to violent Islamist extremism. 3000 are current threat
:28:33. > :28:37.and 20,000 have recent links. We know some of them are high up on
:28:38. > :28:41.those lists and getting constant attention and we also know that
:28:42. > :28:45.people might be down the list and might have featured years ago and
:28:46. > :28:49.have gone quiet and all of a sudden they become activated and carry out
:28:50. > :28:55.terrorist outrages, it is a huge challenge society as to how we deal
:28:56. > :28:58.with these potential suspects. The conditions are extremely difficult
:28:59. > :29:02.but they are proceeding as quickly as they can... Andy Trotter was
:29:03. > :29:07.deputy chief constable for British Transport Police at the time of the
:29:08. > :29:13.London bombings in 2005 and Chief Constable after that. Rejecting
:29:14. > :29:16.crowded spaces has been central to his 45 year police career. The
:29:17. > :29:20.dreadful events of the last few weeks should stick in our minds
:29:21. > :29:25.forever, they should not fade away. We have to be vigilant all the time
:29:26. > :29:33.and must not let our guard down and we must use the latest technology to
:29:34. > :29:38.take the fight to the terrorists. Both the leader of the Manchester
:29:39. > :29:41.attack and the leader of the London Bridge Rampage later when known
:29:42. > :29:46.extremists but they were assessed to be a low priority. They were on the
:29:47. > :29:53.radar but not under the microscope whenever they attacked. With 23,000
:29:54. > :29:59.on the list, how do we as a society monitoring that number? There is a
:30:00. > :30:02.technique called automatic face recognition that can help, it uses
:30:03. > :30:06.the images of faces taken from cameras deployed either overtly or
:30:07. > :30:12.covertly. They kind of automatic face recognition we are talking
:30:13. > :30:16.about relies on a machine learning and artificial intelligence, where
:30:17. > :30:20.computers teach themselves to identify people more effectively.
:30:21. > :30:25.Newsnight can reveal this technique was used in live surveillance
:30:26. > :30:31.operations before and after the recent terrorist attacks in
:30:32. > :30:35.Manchester and London. A small British company called Digital
:30:36. > :30:39.barriers has developed an advanced face recognition system. We set up a
:30:40. > :30:45.simple scenario using actors to show how this works. This is a typical
:30:46. > :30:48.surveillance camera but this is loaded with face recognition
:30:49. > :30:52.capability so you can see it as capturing everyone coming from the
:30:53. > :30:56.store away in a crowded space. Unknown on the left, this person is
:30:57. > :31:01.high risk. Somebody on the list has been spotted coming from the
:31:02. > :31:05.entrance of a typical camera and on the top left-hand side of the
:31:06. > :31:09.screen, because that is registering the match, we can see the identity
:31:10. > :31:13.of that person and that alert will go to the right place. This could be
:31:14. > :31:16.one of many thousands of such cameras in use every single day of
:31:17. > :31:22.the week looking for people against that database. The system uses an
:31:23. > :31:28.artificial intelligence technique called machine learning. We feed the
:31:29. > :31:31.computer millions of reference images where we know what the
:31:32. > :31:36.results are on the computer knows those results as well and when we
:31:37. > :31:40.feed it images it has not seen before, it can unfair what they
:31:41. > :31:46.might be and we allow the system to become ever better at the job of
:31:47. > :31:52.recognising people. The designers of the system say it can even work in
:31:53. > :31:56.bad light and we did our experiment, recognising faces through glass. We
:31:57. > :32:02.look at multiple reference points on the face of a person and in essence
:32:03. > :32:05.we create a map, biometric map, which is just code about as compared
:32:06. > :32:12.to the same maps created as people pass the camera.
:32:13. > :32:20.The use of video is key, enabling the system to analyse thousands of
:32:21. > :32:29.frames. It has been used in a whole range of applications. Should these
:32:30. > :32:38.tactics be yewed to monitor known extremists? He spent much of his
:32:39. > :32:43.career at the top of UK policing, a source, he says he believes most of
:32:44. > :32:51.the public will accept it. He says the UK's Counter-Terrorism tactics
:32:52. > :32:54.are out-of-date. Current Counter-Terrorism tactics were
:32:55. > :33:00.developed in response to Irish terrorism. From the 1970s on,
:33:01. > :33:04.terrorist networks were infiltrated. Bugs and probes were placed,
:33:05. > :33:14.suspects physically tracked. This approach takes a lot of surveillance
:33:15. > :33:18.officers on the ground. We recreated a classic operations or follow. We
:33:19. > :33:22.spoke to a former surveillance officer who spent five years working
:33:23. > :33:26.for the Metropolitan Police. Essentially we had the first
:33:27. > :33:30.operative following him the same side of the pavement to the corner,
:33:31. > :33:35.then they disengage and carry on because he's turned left. From this
:33:36. > :33:40.side of the street, cross over, re-engage on the left hand turn and
:33:41. > :33:44.the end of the street will be the primary position. Sounds like a
:33:45. > :33:49.labour-intensive process? Yes, it is. And that's without considering
:33:50. > :33:54.that you may need to have extra vehicles with extra crews on board,
:33:55. > :33:59.extra bodies on the ground, changeover shifts and potentially
:34:00. > :34:02.somebody on overwatch to operate the remote viewing equipment or even on
:34:03. > :34:07.the roof top. Another former surveillance officer told me he'd
:34:08. > :34:14.seen MI5 operations that used 40 people to trail one target over 24
:34:15. > :34:17.hours. It is a hugely labour-intensive operation. These
:34:18. > :34:21.people might do nothing for months, years, and all the time there might
:34:22. > :34:28.be others who need even more attention. That diverts resources
:34:29. > :34:32.from other things. If we can use this technology sensible, can good
:34:33. > :34:35.judicial oversight because obviously clearly there are issues here, I
:34:36. > :34:40.think the overriding civil liberty is keeping our society safe. If we
:34:41. > :34:46.can use this technology, we should. If an alert is triggered, what
:34:47. > :34:49.action should be taken? If an alarm is run through your camera system
:34:50. > :34:54.picking up one of these people, what do you do? At this stage all you've
:34:55. > :34:57.got is a positive identification of somebody on a watch list. Do they
:34:58. > :35:01.represent a threat? Are they planning some form of attack? Are
:35:02. > :35:07.they just going about their normal business popping down to see their
:35:08. > :35:11.mum or going out shopping? At London Bridge, protective rails have been
:35:12. > :35:16.installed but face recognition could offer a broader approach. In rising
:35:17. > :35:19.order of controversy, you could use it with targeted investigations,
:35:20. > :35:24.monitoring people entering and leaving an address, for example, or
:35:25. > :35:31.use multiple cameras to protect crowded spaces like stations or the
:35:32. > :35:36.citizens could become as ubiquitous as CCTV to build patterns of
:35:37. > :35:41.behaviour. We can take a database of muttple tens of thousands of people.
:35:42. > :35:44.So what are the patterns behind people's behaviour, so how many
:35:45. > :35:50.different times have people on a list that you may be interested in,
:35:51. > :35:56.visited certain locations or been in the same location at similar times
:35:57. > :36:01.to others you are interested in. This is being used in secret. We
:36:02. > :36:04.haven't had a conversation as a society about how or where and when
:36:05. > :36:08.it should be used. What we need is to have that conversation and we
:36:09. > :36:13.need to interrogate whether we are willing for something that can be
:36:14. > :36:16.very invasive and have a real impact on innocent people's freedoms every
:36:17. > :36:18.day, whether we are willing to have that installed in our society and
:36:19. > :36:24.what we need to make sure that we are protected from it going wrong.
:36:25. > :36:29.If you protected every single crowded place, people would feel
:36:30. > :36:33.they were living under some form of surveillance society so where does
:36:34. > :36:36.the balance end? The biggest attack on our civil liberties is the murder
:36:37. > :36:40.of our children and our people in Manchester and in London. Yes,
:36:41. > :36:44.there'll be an intrusion, of course there will but that is a price to
:36:45. > :36:50.pay if we can protect our society against the terrorist threat. The
:36:51. > :36:54.London bombings in 2005 remain Britain's worst terrorist attack.
:36:55. > :36:57.Back then, Newsnight revealed that the leader, Mohammad Sidique Khan
:36:58. > :37:02.featured in surveillance before the attack. He slipped through the net.
:37:03. > :37:07.With an ever lengthening watch list, some say the trade-off between
:37:08. > :37:11.intrusion and security must change. I'm concerned about civil liberties,
:37:12. > :37:16.as is anybody. I'm even more concerned about making sure we use
:37:17. > :37:21.the best kit we can to take the fight to the terrorist. We do not
:37:22. > :37:24.want to be having memorial services and we don't want to be thanking the
:37:25. > :37:28.blue light services for outstanding responses, we don't want to do this
:37:29. > :37:32.any more. Anything we can do to fight the terrorists and serious
:37:33. > :37:36.criminals, we should use it. Advanced face recognition will never
:37:37. > :37:42.replace conventional intelligence gathering. But it could help manage
:37:43. > :37:47.the watch list given the scale of the threat will society accept it?
:37:48. > :37:54.Richard Watson there. Almost time to go. Let's take a look at the papers,
:37:55. > :37:56.or some of them. The Times leads on transitional arrangements, borders
:37:57. > :38:01.will remain open for two years after Brexit. The Chancellor is juend
:38:02. > :38:04.Studioed stood to believe he has support of every Cabinet Minister
:38:05. > :38:08.for a deal, a new immigration regime will be put in place after the two
:38:09. > :38:13.year period. The Daily Telegraph on a similar theme, not quite the same
:38:14. > :38:18.story, it's one that says foreign criminals will be able to stay or
:38:19. > :38:22.some of them after we leave the EU. OJ Simpson on the cover of one of
:38:23. > :38:28.the papers, he's been given parole over in the US. And finally the
:38:29. > :38:31.Forwardian, free movement may go on until 2023, ministers accept, so
:38:32. > :38:37.that's a transitional arrangement that is a little bit longer. Well,
:38:38. > :38:42.that is it for tonight. Before we go, what have Bing Crosby, Paul
:38:43. > :38:47.Newman and Meetloaf got in common, they are one in part of the 12 women
:38:48. > :38:54.and 200 women who suffer from one form of colour blindness. A Belgian
:38:55. > :39:01.photographer's released a photo book using infrared exposure and hand
:39:02. > :39:05.painted images. A high proportion of residents suffer from total colour
:39:06. > :39:10.blindness in one area. Historians believe the gene that causes the
:39:11. > :39:13.condition can be traced to a King who repopulated the island after a
:39:14. > :39:18.tsunami, wiped out almost the entire population in the 1700s. So we leave
:39:19. > :39:19.you tonight with images from the island of the colour blind. Good
:39:20. > :39:30.night.