:00:00. > :00:09.When is the free movement of people not the free movement of people?
:00:10. > :00:12.This morning the Home Secretary Amber Rudd
:00:13. > :00:15.and her Immigration Minister Brandon Lewis seemed to be talking
:00:16. > :00:22.I'll be speaking to Mr Lewis and, as Labour's got
:00:23. > :00:24.its own Brexit problems, to the Shadow Home
:00:25. > :00:29.Also tonight, we report from Caracas, as Venezuala faces
:00:30. > :00:35.This is a country that has seen many of its youngest people killed,
:00:36. > :00:42.People like these are commemorating the lives lost in this way,
:00:43. > :00:45.This is very much an open wound and the consequences
:00:46. > :00:56.Whose calling who elite, and since when was it a dirty word?
:00:57. > :00:59.You're coming across to a little bit elitist.
:01:00. > :01:01.After Emily's extraordionary encounter
:01:02. > :01:05.with Trump's new man last night, we'll ask what's so bad
:01:06. > :01:16.We are travelling in this torpedo like objects, deep under the streets
:01:17. > :01:22.of London. The Home Secretary, safely
:01:23. > :01:27.on a boat on the west coast of Scotland, broke her year-long
:01:28. > :01:31.silence on Brexit in an article in the FT to announce
:01:32. > :01:34.that there will be not be a cliff edge for EU nationals in March 2019,
:01:35. > :01:39.but rather a transition period, and that she had asked the experts
:01:40. > :01:43.of the Migration Advisory Council to examine the costs and benefits
:01:44. > :01:45.of EU migration and report Her Immigration Minister,
:01:46. > :01:50.Brandon Lewis, then appeared on the Today programme this morning,
:01:51. > :01:53.taking a different, sharper tone. Free movement will end, he said,
:01:54. > :01:59.when we leave the EU. Then she talked to him
:02:00. > :02:00.during the day. I wonder if that
:02:01. > :02:17.was a rather uncomfortable call? Immigration was a major issue in the
:02:18. > :02:22.referendum argument. Absolutely no control over huge numbers of people
:02:23. > :02:26.coming from the EU. Vote Leave and to take back control. Isn't it time
:02:27. > :02:32.we took back control? Take back control. Control the borders and
:02:33. > :02:36.control our immigration policies. That's why the government committed
:02:37. > :02:41.to making an end to free movement a red line in our EU negotiation.
:02:42. > :02:45.Today the Home Secretary asked the Migration Advisory Committee to
:02:46. > :02:50.start work on what comes next. We want a newcomer in forms, evidence
:02:51. > :02:57.-based EU migration policy. We've commissioned the MAC to look into
:02:58. > :03:01.it, an independent group. The Home Secretary set out a vague timetable,
:03:02. > :03:10.sort of, that there will be three phases. The first will end on the
:03:11. > :03:15.specified date, the day we leave the EU, probably March, 2019. EU
:03:16. > :03:20.citizens who are already here, who have five years residency, will be
:03:21. > :03:27.able to apply for a settled status and those with fewer than five years
:03:28. > :03:29.residency will be allowed to stay to clock up those five years. Even the
:03:30. > :03:36.apparently simple thing about what to do with EU citizens here already,
:03:37. > :03:39.and to take the big one, the European Union wants its own court
:03:40. > :03:41.to have some jurisdiction over these people to insure that their rights
:03:42. > :03:46.are respected, something the government doesn't like at all. The
:03:47. > :03:49.second phase is a slightly woolly transition phase, where it seems
:03:50. > :03:55.that EU residents will be able to come here but must register and they
:03:56. > :04:01.may have weaker rights than earlier writers enjoy. The idea here, the
:04:02. > :04:06.Home Office is, is to avoid a cliff edge in the Labour market when
:04:07. > :04:09.Brexit arrives. If we allow EU citizens in during the transition,
:04:10. > :04:12.will we keep the benefits of the Single Market as well? The
:04:13. > :04:17.transition proposal makes absolute sense for us in that you can see the
:04:18. > :04:20.logic in delaying the moment when we leave the Single Market, the customs
:04:21. > :04:27.union, if we do. The problem is that it may not make sense for the EU
:04:28. > :04:33.because they are hearing that we will enter free movement and they
:04:34. > :04:36.may not say that we can do that and keep the economic benefits of the
:04:37. > :04:40.market. And then the final migration system, after the transition process
:04:41. > :04:44.ends, but that could be anything from keeping things as they are for
:04:45. > :04:48.EU citizens or treating EU migrants like other migrants, a more
:04:49. > :04:57.burdensome and more capricious process. For non-EU Mashup gnaws,
:04:58. > :05:01.the current -- non-EU nationals, the UK regime is very prescriptive. If
:05:02. > :05:05.you are coming across as a sponsored worker, you can only come in for a
:05:06. > :05:11.role that requires degree level education. There are very
:05:12. > :05:15.prescriptive salary thresholds. If you're being transferred by an
:05:16. > :05:21.international company, the absolute minimum you can be paid is ?41,500
:05:22. > :05:27.per annum. Enormous government fees that must be paid by the employer
:05:28. > :05:30.and employee. ?16,000 in government fees alone if you want to bring a
:05:31. > :05:35.family of five across for five years. To work out what comes next
:05:36. > :05:40.we must answer questions about who we want coming here. This Slough
:05:41. > :05:45.-based employment agency is worried about prioritise in skilled workers.
:05:46. > :05:49.The majority of the workers that we provide, hundreds on a daily basis,
:05:50. > :05:53.are working in the elementary sector, they are blue-collar
:05:54. > :05:56.workers, and I don't think a points-based system is the right
:05:57. > :06:00.kind of approach to continue to attract that kind of Labour for the
:06:01. > :06:05.UK market. The points-based system may cater for highly skilled
:06:06. > :06:09.migrants but it certainly wouldn't recognise, in my experience, the
:06:10. > :06:15.people with a low skill base that the country so much needs. He isn't
:06:16. > :06:21.the only businessman lobbying. We've had everything from businessmen
:06:22. > :06:23.saying that we need banks talking about contingency planning and
:06:24. > :06:30.possibly moving their headquarters elsewhere. Disputes on this theme
:06:31. > :06:33.are rumbling along in government. Keeping business happy overall,
:06:34. > :06:37.while meeting the 100,000 net migration target may prove
:06:38. > :06:40.impossible. You can't take control of everything.
:06:41. > :06:43.Well, why has the commissioning of the report by the Migration Advisory
:06:44. > :06:47.Committee, accompanied by a six-page letter setting out a three-phase
:06:48. > :06:50.transition period for EU nationals living and working in the UK, caused
:06:51. > :06:55.If the transition lasts for years, and EU workers are merely
:06:56. > :06:58.registered as being in the UK, does that constitute the end
:06:59. > :07:02.of freedom of movement on March 2019 or not?
:07:03. > :07:07.Earlier I spoke to the Immigration Minister Brandon Lewis.
:07:08. > :07:14.I asked why the report wasn't commissioned a year and a month ago,
:07:15. > :07:18.straight after the Brexit vote. We've commissioned today, and the
:07:19. > :07:23.work with the Migration Advisory Committee will start and we will
:07:24. > :07:32.have interim reports as well. Later this year I will publish a white
:07:33. > :07:36.paper. In early 2018 we will bring an immigration bill. The Home
:07:37. > :07:40.Secretary has made it clear that there is a transition period of up
:07:41. > :07:45.to three years after March, 2019, went EU nationals can simply turn up
:07:46. > :07:51.and register to stay. And yet you say that freedom of movement will
:07:52. > :07:55.end in March, 2019. Which is it? Freedom of movement will end when we
:07:56. > :08:00.leave the EU, it is one of the four pillars. We get control back of the
:08:01. > :08:04.immigration system. My understanding is that up to three years
:08:05. > :08:09.afterwards, workers in the European Union can come and simply register,
:08:10. > :08:12.which is not controlled, they can register and in the transition
:08:13. > :08:16.period, up to three years, they can stay. Is that right? We haven't
:08:17. > :08:23.outlined the detail of what will happen. Amber Rudd did. She didn't.
:08:24. > :08:27.We've announced that the Migration Advisory Committee will look at the
:08:28. > :08:32.impact of Labour and the European migration on our Labour market in
:08:33. > :08:37.the UK and that will inform government policy. Government will
:08:38. > :08:41.set policy. The framework will be what the immigration system will be
:08:42. > :08:45.in the immigration bill in 2018. We don't want a cliff edge, we want
:08:46. > :08:48.business to grow and develop. You say that they will be no free
:08:49. > :08:52.movement of European workers after March, 2019 but the Home Secretary
:08:53. > :08:55.says there will be transition arrangements for to three years
:08:56. > :09:00.where European workers can come here and work. Which is it? They are
:09:01. > :09:04.compatible, they go together perfectly well. When we leave the
:09:05. > :09:12.EU, by definition, freedom of movement will end. There will be a
:09:13. > :09:15.system, after March, 2019, which will be our new system and there
:09:16. > :09:20.will be a period of that, a transition system including a number
:09:21. > :09:25.of things, for example EU citizens looking to get settled status in the
:09:26. > :09:28.UK, who have qualified, after that negotiation. There will be a grace
:09:29. > :09:32.period of two years for them to deal with it. We will say to people
:09:33. > :09:37.coming to this country that they will potentially have to register so
:09:38. > :09:43.we know who is here. That isn't controlling them. If this committee
:09:44. > :09:48.identifies a need for workers, say, 200,000 of various skills, would you
:09:49. > :09:51.accept that advice? I won't prejudge what the committee will do, they are
:09:52. > :09:56.independent, they will give interim reports. They will also be looking
:09:57. > :10:02.at what industry needs in terms of the proportion of workers. If the
:10:03. > :10:06.advice is 200,000, are you going to say that isn't acceptable? The
:10:07. > :10:09.decision on policy is a matter for the government and we will outline
:10:10. > :10:14.that in the immigration bill next year. There is no mention of keeping
:10:15. > :10:21.immigration to the tens of thousands, even as an aspiration. It
:10:22. > :10:23.wasn't mentioned and it is a manifesto commitment. It is a
:10:24. > :10:26.commitment and we have stuck to that, we are the only party saying
:10:27. > :10:33.we understand that people in this country want to see us having
:10:34. > :10:36.control of the borders, reducing migration to sustainable numbers and
:10:37. > :10:39.we are determined to deliver that but we want to do it in a way that
:10:40. > :10:44.allows the economy to flourish and we believe you can do both. How do
:10:45. > :10:52.you know you can do both? The HR directors said that 65% of our
:10:53. > :10:56.workers are EU nationals. You need low skilled workers. Can they come?
:10:57. > :10:59.We need to make sure we are developing the skills we need for
:11:00. > :11:04.the future in this country and attracting the brightest from the EU
:11:05. > :11:06.and around the world. It is in the brightest and best necessarily, this
:11:07. > :11:13.isn't to demean people but people want workers in food processing
:11:14. > :11:19.workers, hotels, baristas, they are the kind of low skilled workers that
:11:20. > :11:22.we don't have. Are you going to train people to be low skilled
:11:23. > :11:33.workers? One thing we must ensure we are doing, how we make sure we are
:11:34. > :11:36.getting the best opportunity. We can reduce the net migration down to the
:11:37. > :11:40.tens of thousands, while still making sure we have an economy that
:11:41. > :11:45.is thriving and seeing growth for our country. What kind of economy
:11:46. > :11:52.are we talking about? Do you believe in a centrally planned economy, you
:11:53. > :11:55.know what is going to happen, 3000 BMW workers, 500 hairdressers? You
:11:56. > :12:01.don't know, and you might be short of these people. That's why we have
:12:02. > :12:05.an immigration policy that has the flexibility to deliver for the
:12:06. > :12:08.economy. That's why we're talking to different sectors, as I did to the
:12:09. > :12:12.financial sector today, and we are getting exposed to look at the
:12:13. > :12:16.economy. I'm not going to prejudge what the immigration policy will be.
:12:17. > :12:18.That is a matter for the immigration bill in 2018.
:12:19. > :12:21.Our political editor, Nick Watt is with me.
:12:22. > :12:28.What have you learned? Your first question to him was why didn't you
:12:29. > :12:32.commission it a year ago, it is a tight timetable. I understand Amber
:12:33. > :12:35.Rudd was keen to get going on the project sometime ago the general
:12:36. > :12:40.election. That obviously didn't happen and as I understand it Amber
:12:41. > :12:47.Rudd has found it easier to get approval after the changes that took
:12:48. > :12:50.place in Downing Street after the general election. Preparatory work
:12:51. > :12:54.has been going on in the Home Office on this for some time. It's
:12:55. > :12:59.interesting that Amber Rudd is one of a trio of Cabinet ministers who
:13:00. > :13:04.have been pushing for a more relaxed position on this to avoid what they
:13:05. > :13:07.are calling a cliff edge Brexit. No suppliers that Philip Hammond is in
:13:08. > :13:13.the group but David Davis, the Brexit sev Terry, is in that group
:13:14. > :13:18.-- Brexit secretary. He got into trouble when they went beyond the
:13:19. > :13:21.agreed script, that the UK must attract the best and brightest after
:13:22. > :13:25.Brexit. He said that we need an immigration policy that will avoid
:13:26. > :13:26.shortages in the Labour market. Not happy in number ten when he said
:13:27. > :13:29.that. Thank you for joining us. If the government seems to be
:13:30. > :13:32.at sixes and sevens over Brexit, Jeremy Corbyn and the shadow
:13:33. > :13:35.Secretary of State for International Trade have put
:13:36. > :13:37.the clear message out on the airwaves and in print over
:13:38. > :13:40.the last few days that Labour backs an end to the Single Market and says
:13:41. > :13:47.no to a Customs Union. But last night the shadow
:13:48. > :13:49.Chancellor John McDonnell seemed to contradict his leader,
:13:50. > :13:51.saying that Labour was not ruling out membership
:13:52. > :13:53.of the Single Market at all. Earlier I met up with
:13:54. > :13:56.the Shadow Home Secretary, Diane Abbot, and first
:13:57. > :13:58.asked her for her reaction to today's Government
:13:59. > :14:03.announcement on immigration. The government's in a mess
:14:04. > :14:04.about immigration. They were happy to pander
:14:05. > :14:09.to Ukip voters during the general election,
:14:10. > :14:13.but, belatedly now, they have realised the very vital role that EU
:14:14. > :14:18.migrants play in the economy. I'm glad they are going to get
:14:19. > :14:23.some expert advice. I don't understand that they are
:14:24. > :14:26.seeking the expert advice a year after we voted to come out
:14:27. > :14:30.of the European Union. But some facts will be better
:14:31. > :14:33.than urban myths and some light will be better than the heat
:14:34. > :14:35.which is sometimes generated Let's look then at Labour's position
:14:36. > :14:43.because Barry Gardiner, the shadow international trade
:14:44. > :14:49.secretary, wrote in the Guardian that Labour's position is out
:14:50. > :14:54.of the Single Market, out of the Customs Union
:14:55. > :14:56.because you'll be a vassal state and actually what we need
:14:57. > :14:58.is a bespoke agreement. The Labour Party made it very
:14:59. > :15:06.clear in its manifesto, that it wants a Brexit which puts
:15:07. > :15:09.jobs and the economy first and we are not, at this stage,
:15:10. > :15:15.taking any options off the table. But Barry Gardiner seemed
:15:16. > :15:17.to suggest that actually, out of the single market,
:15:18. > :15:19.out of the customs union He may seem to suggest that,
:15:20. > :15:24.but at this point, we are not taking We believe in looking
:15:25. > :15:28.at where we want to go and what we want from these
:15:29. > :15:30.negotiations, were we conducting them, is to have the benefits
:15:31. > :15:33.of being in the single market We are about looking
:15:34. > :15:39.at ends, not structures. So in fact, your view
:15:40. > :15:42.is, we could still be My view is, we shouldn't take
:15:43. > :15:46.options off the table. This is Britain's future,
:15:47. > :15:48.this is our children's future. It would be irresponsible to take
:15:49. > :15:56.options off the table. Jeremy Corbyn said on Sunday,
:15:57. > :15:58.the benefits of the single market are dependent on membership
:15:59. > :16:01.of the EU, making it quite clear that he believes we should be out
:16:02. > :16:04.of the single market. I was with Jeremy Corbyn this
:16:05. > :16:06.afternoon and he is quite clear, we are not taking options
:16:07. > :16:09.off the table. There will be no bigger,
:16:10. > :16:12.or more important negotiation in my political lifetime,
:16:13. > :16:16.it would be foolish at this stage But he said, we should be
:16:17. > :16:22.out the single market. He made it perfectly clear,
:16:23. > :16:25.Andrew Marr pressed him on it What we're saying is that
:16:26. > :16:29.when we come out of the single market, freedom of movement
:16:30. > :16:32.will obviously fall. But, we're not taking
:16:33. > :16:39.options off the table. But what Jeremy Corbyn was saying
:16:40. > :16:42.is he wants to stop, what do you call it,
:16:43. > :16:51.unscrupulous agencies Are you sure that Jeremy
:16:52. > :16:53.Corbyn voted to Remain? It's almost trying to undermine
:16:54. > :16:59.all the hard work he did and all of us did, to try and get
:17:00. > :17:01.the right result. But if you have the Labour
:17:02. > :17:04.leader saying he wants to leave the single market,
:17:05. > :17:06.that that is the option. If you've got your shadow
:17:07. > :17:08.international trade secretary saying leave the single market,
:17:09. > :17:10.leave the customs union, that looks like Labour is actually
:17:11. > :17:14.supporting a hard Brexit and there is very little evidence
:17:15. > :17:17.to show that Labour is doing You will see what we're doing
:17:18. > :17:23.to stop a hard Brexit I can assure you that our vision
:17:24. > :17:29.for this country going forward, is very different from the view
:17:30. > :17:35.of Theresa May and Once one of South America's
:17:36. > :17:42.richest countries, Venezuela, now teeters
:17:43. > :17:45.on the brink of civil war. Months of protests against
:17:46. > :17:48.President Maduro's government have Inflation, malnutrition and even
:17:49. > :17:55.starvation are on the rise in a country with some
:17:56. > :17:58.of the world's largest oil reserves. The BBC has spoken to activists
:17:59. > :18:00.who say the government is using torture, and imprisonment
:18:01. > :18:04.without trial, against those who oppose it, a claim
:18:05. > :18:07.the government denies. This weekend huge protests
:18:08. > :18:10.are expected in a showdown ahead of a vote to elect an assembly
:18:11. > :18:13.to change the constitution. Opposition parties say this
:18:14. > :18:17.would create a dictatorship. So who are the people hoping
:18:18. > :18:20.to overthrow the President? Vladimir Hernandez
:18:21. > :18:24.reports from Caracas. Once the richest jewel
:18:25. > :18:31.in Latin America, it's now a country drowning in political
:18:32. > :18:35.and economic chaos. As his people rage, President
:18:36. > :18:39.Nicolas Maduro's grip on power has It's feared a new constitution
:18:40. > :18:46.will establish a dictatorship. The BBC has heard disturbing
:18:47. > :18:50.allegations of state torture I've been to Caracas to meet
:18:51. > :19:00.the resistance to the Maduro regime and to find out what future lies
:19:01. > :19:06.in store for this troubled country. By the time Maduro
:19:07. > :19:10.came to power in 2013, Venezuela's Bolivarian Revolution,
:19:11. > :19:16.begun by his charismatic predecessor, Hugo
:19:17. > :19:18.Chavez, was in chaos. Price regulations and the state
:19:19. > :19:23.control of industry When the oil price fell,
:19:24. > :19:27.Venezuela's extravagant The country found itself borrowing
:19:28. > :19:30.heavily and increasingly reliant In the last quarter years
:19:31. > :19:36.the economy has shrunk by a third. The IMF estimates that inflation
:19:37. > :19:41.is running at over 700%. Three out of four Venezuelans lost
:19:42. > :19:47.an average of 18 lbs Corruption helps the regime
:19:48. > :19:53.to stay in power. The army are kept onside
:19:54. > :19:56.by being given charge In March, Maduro's Supreme Court
:19:57. > :20:03.declared the opposition led National Assembly
:20:04. > :20:07.to be illegitimate. Demonstrations and violent clashes
:20:08. > :20:11.with the security forces followed. Over 100 people have
:20:12. > :20:13.died and thousands more In May, president Maduro called
:20:14. > :20:19.for a new constitution in an attempt It's hard to get the government
:20:20. > :20:27.to talk to the media but the minister in charge of food
:20:28. > :20:30.distribution, a key job in today's Venezuela,
:20:31. > :20:36.did agree to talk to me. In the Chavista worldview,
:20:37. > :20:38.there is a familiar bogeyman. The opposition,
:20:39. > :21:22.unsurprisingly, disagree. Former presidential candidate
:21:23. > :21:26.Maria Corina Machado thinks there's far more to the resistance
:21:27. > :21:54.than the violent protest. You don't have to look far to find
:21:55. > :21:57.who she is talking about. Street kids like these appear
:21:58. > :22:01.at every demonstration. Their enthusiasm to take
:22:02. > :22:05.on the security forces, while brave, I saw it for myself
:22:06. > :22:13.and the very next protest. This is one of the most
:22:14. > :22:15.controversial aspects Small pockets of demonstrators
:22:16. > :22:21.at the end of the protest come to places like this,
:22:22. > :22:23.a military base, In there, there are already
:22:24. > :22:27.scuffles, with some people telling them, don't do it,
:22:28. > :22:30.you are valuable, you are a young life, don't lose it, because over
:22:31. > :22:33.there the National Guard is already This residential block is called
:22:34. > :22:43.Los Verdes or the Greens. It's been a focal point
:22:44. > :22:46.of vociferous anti-government Neighbours here set up
:22:47. > :22:52.barricades on a regular basis and clashes with the police
:22:53. > :22:55.and National Guard are frequent. One evening, the government
:22:56. > :22:58.said, enough was enough. When she heard the police
:22:59. > :23:22.begin their assault, one of the residents,
:23:23. > :23:25.Camila, went to hide Even though she told
:23:26. > :23:33.the police she was pregnant, They kept on beating us,
:23:34. > :23:38.even when they took us They told someone, come on,
:23:39. > :23:42.I'm going to kill you, Because this is a dictatorship
:23:43. > :23:50.and they nick whoever they want to, whether you are doing
:23:51. > :23:55.anything or not. Camila was taken to some of Caracas'
:23:56. > :23:57.worst prisons before He was arrested at a demonstration,
:23:58. > :24:08.accused of belonging They grabbed me from behind,
:24:09. > :24:15.there must be 18, 20 cops While they were kicking
:24:16. > :24:20.and hitting me, they put me on a bike and took me
:24:21. > :24:22.to the headquarters Originally designed as a futuristic
:24:23. > :24:33.shopping centre, today the Helicoide is a place whose name makes even
:24:34. > :24:38.the hardened shudder. Held in overcrowded cell
:24:39. > :24:41.for over two months, Simon witnessed prisoners returning
:24:42. > :24:44.from interrogation with tell-tale One got back, you could
:24:45. > :24:52.tell he was frightened. He couldn't stand up
:24:53. > :24:54.straight and you could see And the other guy, you could see his
:24:55. > :25:00.black eye, it was all bruised, so you could see they have
:25:01. > :25:06.given him shociks. so you could see they
:25:07. > :25:08.have given him shocks. Later on, several officers
:25:09. > :25:11.there told us, we are going to give And we're going to grab
:25:12. > :25:15.those two and soak them. But intelligence agency officials
:25:16. > :25:28.ignored a release order and he was only freed a month
:25:29. > :25:31.and a half later. But far from being intimidated,
:25:32. > :25:33.the opposition are Whilst we were filming with former
:25:34. > :25:37.presidential candidate Maria Corina Machado,
:25:38. > :25:40.we witnessed an extraordinary This is the Attorney
:25:41. > :25:45.General of Venezuela. She's now playing key
:25:46. > :25:55.role in this crisis. Many in the opposition,
:25:56. > :26:32.like Maria Corina Machado, believe that behind the bluster,
:26:33. > :26:45.the endgame being played out. The president, though,
:26:46. > :26:47.sees a very different future Whilst their politicians fight it
:26:48. > :27:06.out, the students of UCV, the largest university in Venezuela,
:27:07. > :27:08.continue their own Personally, I don't mind giving
:27:09. > :27:13.up my life out there in the streets, A constitutional assembly
:27:14. > :27:24.is now set to draw up At least, that is
:27:25. > :27:29.the government's plan. It's a future that very few
:27:30. > :27:44.in the country are relishing. And you can see a longer version on
:27:45. > :27:46.our world at 8:30pm on Saturday night and 9:30pm on Sunday night and
:27:47. > :27:48.also on the iPlayer. Within the past few hours
:27:49. > :27:51.the government in Venezuela has banned all protests against this
:27:52. > :27:53.Sunday's controversial vote on an assembly to draw up
:27:54. > :27:55.a new constitution... From tomorrow anyone taking part
:27:56. > :27:58.in a rally or march could be jailed I'm joined live now by the Times
:27:59. > :28:16.correspondent in Carracas, As a result of that, what is
:28:17. > :28:21.happening on the streets of Caracas? We have had reaction from our
:28:22. > :28:26.position that they will be banning hard-core for five days. The
:28:27. > :28:31.opposition says it plans on Friday in Venezuela to have a massive march
:28:32. > :28:35.from all over the country, censoring on Caracas, to try and stop what it
:28:36. > :28:40.says is the last chance it has before there is a complete political
:28:41. > :28:45.reset if this constituent assembly happens on Sunday. Meanwhile, this
:28:46. > :28:49.is the second day of a national strike called by the opposition
:28:50. > :28:55.against the government. It has been pretty effective in Caracas, most
:28:56. > :28:59.shops are shut, very few cars on the streets. In some ways, a silent
:29:00. > :29:03.protest, trying to contradict what the government is saying. The
:29:04. > :29:07.government says it is still leading a popular revolution and the people
:29:08. > :29:12.are behind it and if the people want to change the constitution, the
:29:13. > :29:17.opposition, by holding this national strike, they are saying, look at
:29:18. > :29:20.there, the people are not with you. Thank you very much.
:29:21. > :29:23.If there's one word which has become nuclear charged in the last decade,
:29:24. > :29:26.and has dominated the political discourse it is the word "elite".
:29:27. > :29:28.It's an insult that has been spat out Westminster politicians,
:29:29. > :29:30.flung at practically everyone in Washington, think Trump's battle
:29:31. > :29:33.cry "drain the Swamp - and swept away the political
:29:34. > :29:38.establishment in France.- it has thrown up Donald Trump
:29:39. > :29:40.and Emmanuel Macron, and almost did for Theresa May,
:29:41. > :29:46.The Oxford Dictionary definition of Elite is "a select group
:29:47. > :29:49.that is superior in terms of ability or qualities to the rest
:29:50. > :29:52.And last night on Newsnight, this is what happened Emily asked
:29:53. > :29:55.the new White House director Communications Antony Scaramucci -
:29:56. > :29:59.what part of Donald Trump was not elite?
:30:00. > :30:02.What's happening right now, which I love, is that the elites
:30:03. > :30:04.and the media establishment that want to hit the president
:30:05. > :30:06.on Russia everyday, they recognise there is nothing
:30:07. > :30:09.What part of Donald Trump is not elite?
:30:10. > :30:12.The business side or the politics side, or the inheritance side?
:30:13. > :30:14.What part of Donald Trump, many people in the UK
:30:15. > :30:17.There's so many things about the president.
:30:18. > :30:18.He's a celebrity, he's a billionaire.
:30:19. > :30:21.How about the cheeseburgers, how about the pizza that we eat.
:30:22. > :30:23.Everyone eats cheeseburgers and pizza, what are you talking about?
:30:24. > :30:26.You are coming across a little bit elitist,
:30:27. > :30:28.so let me just say something to you, OK.
:30:29. > :30:30.I grew up in a middle-class family, OK.
:30:31. > :30:32.We had virtually a tight budget and little to no money.
:30:33. > :30:36.I spent 30 years of my life trying to get into the global
:30:37. > :30:38.elites so I could stand here and serve the president.
:30:39. > :30:41.Do you know why I missed the movement?
:30:42. > :30:44.As I tunnelled myself into elites, we had this circular conversation
:30:45. > :30:47.about what was going on, which was completely wrong.
:30:48. > :30:49.Donald Trump is not elite then, he's not an elite?
:30:50. > :30:54.He knows how to operate in an elitist world and he has
:30:55. > :30:57.unbelievable empathy for the common struggle that's going
:30:58. > :31:05.on with the middle-class people and the lower middle-class people.
:31:06. > :31:08.So, eating cheeseburgers and pizza is the latest
:31:09. > :31:16.I'm joined by the former executive editor of The Times,
:31:17. > :31:19.Roger Alton, and Dr Faiza Shahenn, the Director of the Centre
:31:20. > :31:33.Good evening to you both. Roger, is membership of an elite a useful
:31:34. > :31:35.distinction or simply a kind of insult? Trump uses it as an
:31:36. > :31:42.all-purpose swearword about the media because he has a problem with
:31:43. > :31:45.the media and of course, vice versa, I sort of sympathise because the
:31:46. > :31:48.media spends all its time attacking him, and he them, so he uses an
:31:49. > :31:55.all-purpose swearword to say you are an elite. But there is a serious
:31:56. > :32:00.issue about a bunch of people who set themselves up, I think that's
:32:01. > :32:05.what the Sophy was referring to, sometimes also overhear, setting
:32:06. > :32:11.themselves up as the custodians of the opinions that matter and if you
:32:12. > :32:16.don't share their views on Europe, then you are out of the window --
:32:17. > :32:20.that's what the Mooch was referring to. If you don't share those
:32:21. > :32:26.opinions, then you are part of the elite. Is that a problem? You aren't
:32:27. > :32:32.necessarily saying that elites are a problem? I think the self appointed
:32:33. > :32:35.elite is a problem. I'm a fan of excellence, a sporting team,
:32:36. > :32:42.England, excellent, that is simple to understand. Is there a catch all
:32:43. > :32:49.that elites, cultural, political, the law, naturally look after
:32:50. > :32:55.themselves, it is an attitude, but is it a negative thing? I agree that
:32:56. > :32:58.what we saw there, the use of the term elite to shut down
:32:59. > :33:04.conversation, that the word is being used to manipulate people. But there
:33:05. > :33:08.is real anger behind that. Why have Trump and others used the word?
:33:09. > :33:12.Because people are getting rightly angry about the small group of
:33:13. > :33:16.people who have huge power and influence in our society, the
:33:17. > :33:20.judiciary, the media, whether it is the way in which they are gaming the
:33:21. > :33:28.system to make sure they day at the top. It is quite a dirty reality. Is
:33:29. > :33:33.that a modern version of it? Perhaps in the past, elites have been
:33:34. > :33:39.incredibly influential and powerful, for instance I don't think without
:33:40. > :33:43.an elite you wouldn't have had such a big women's suffrage movement.
:33:44. > :33:49.There are many examples of working-class struggles. It was a
:33:50. > :33:52.mixed struggle actually. There are a number of things. Change doesn't
:33:53. > :33:58.always come from the elite, there were many examples. The weekends we
:33:59. > :34:02.have didn't come from the elite, it is making the elite change. What we
:34:03. > :34:09.are seeing now politically is a movement of people who are very
:34:10. > :34:13.angry, who have very little trust. The Grenfell survivors, when they
:34:14. > :34:17.hear about the town leader not having been to a tower block, they
:34:18. > :34:22.feel that they do not share their struggle. Isn't that a cheap jibe in
:34:23. > :34:28.a way? You can say that it is a cheap jibe that works, from somebody
:34:29. > :34:32.like Trump, but what constitutes an elite? Of course he is an elite but
:34:33. > :34:40.he has managed to corral the word to himself. He has a connection, his
:34:41. > :34:45.support has barely moved, a lot of people still like him and they don't
:34:46. > :34:49.like that kind of liberal American press which thinks it can run
:34:50. > :34:55.everything and to a certain extent in this country as well. It says
:34:56. > :35:00.what of ridiculous word, it is good to have excellence, but not to have
:35:01. > :35:04.self appointed elites. Why is having an elite synonymous with being
:35:05. > :35:09.excellent? I don't understand. We make that confusion. They are there
:35:10. > :35:16.by lottery of birth. Bayard. Presumably you could have an elite
:35:17. > :35:26.that forces change through its acumen of knowledge and excellence.
:35:27. > :35:29.-- they aren't. What happens is that, the elite are not
:35:30. > :35:33.necessarily... If we think about what the elite means, they generally
:35:34. > :35:37.come from wealth, went to private school, went to elite is the tuition
:35:38. > :35:46.is, so they may have had a privileged life. -- elite
:35:47. > :35:49.universities. When they are writing our policies, our laws, writing our
:35:50. > :35:58.screenplays, they are really skewing our idea, across the board, but I
:35:59. > :36:02.really skewing... Screenplays? Something we see in many areas,
:36:03. > :36:06.dominated by certain people from certain backgrounds. Is it
:36:07. > :36:10.necessarily harmful to have elites? It isn't, you need elites, you don't
:36:11. > :36:15.want self appointed elites, you need people who are excellent. You want
:36:16. > :36:18.people who are very good running things. I think we are defining
:36:19. > :36:19.elites differently. Thank you for joining us.
:36:20. > :36:20.How was your journey home this evening?
:36:21. > :36:22.Did you perhaps fantasise about a private train,
:36:23. > :36:25.travelling effortlessly, on time, and invisible to sweating,
:36:26. > :36:28.cursing commuters thronging the streets a few feet from you?
:36:29. > :36:34.The Mail Rail was an underground railway which moved letters
:36:35. > :36:37.and parcels across London for 80 years, avoiding the crowded
:36:38. > :36:40.One of London's hidden wonders, it's been mothballed
:36:41. > :36:42.for more than a decade, but it's being brought
:36:43. > :36:47.back to life as visitor attraction from September.
:36:48. > :36:49.We have this exclusive preview from Stephen Smith, which contains
:36:50. > :37:04.It's one of London's best kept secrets.
:37:05. > :37:10.An underground railway that almost nobody has travelled on, until now.
:37:11. > :37:13.For almost 80 years, trains ran clear across the capital,
:37:14. > :37:16.six miles from east to west, with never a problem
:37:17. > :37:24.This is the forgotten labyrinth of the mail rail.
:37:25. > :37:28.It's a wonderfully intimate experience.
:37:29. > :37:32.Possibly a bit cramped for some, but we are travelling in this kind
:37:33. > :37:36.of torpedo-like object deep under the streets of London.
:37:37. > :37:42.Unbeknownst to the thousands of commuters up above.
:37:43. > :37:46.Riding alongside Newsnight on this maiden-ish voyage
:37:47. > :37:52.30 years clocked up on the mail rail, but this is his first
:37:53. > :38:00.This is a luxury, riding around in this train, it's smooth,
:38:01. > :38:02.and it's much more roomy than the wagon I was
:38:03. > :38:08.That was built in 1927 and you feel every lump and bump
:38:09. > :38:16.I know there's a sort of graveyard for old trains down here,
:38:17. > :38:19.do you see a lot of ghosts as you go around yourself, your
:38:20. > :38:24.Here is loaded with echoes for me, the memories of people I've known
:38:25. > :38:29.working here and every event linked to a place somewhere on the railway.
:38:30. > :38:31.ARCHIVE: Once aboard, parcels and letters travel over
:38:32. > :38:38.Miniature engines, running on a two foot track give the whole thing
:38:39. > :38:41.the Alice in Wonderland fascination of model trains and
:38:42. > :38:47.It was 1927 when the first wagons of letters and parcels rolled
:38:48. > :38:49.through the narrow tunnels of the Post Office railway,
:38:50. > :38:54.The idea was to keep the all-important mail free
:38:55. > :38:58.The Mail Rail employed hundreds of staff and moved
:38:59. > :39:09.They made their own entertainment in this twilight world,
:39:10. > :39:15.They worked out they'd have enough time for a throw each,
:39:16. > :39:19.And they couldn't leave their station, they couldn't walk off,
:39:20. > :39:24.so while they were standing there they had a game of darts.
:39:25. > :39:28.But according to Royal Mail, the railway became more expensive
:39:29. > :39:31.than moving post by road, so in 2003, the last postie turned
:39:32. > :39:44.I remember 2011, the first time I got to come down to the Mail Rail,
:39:45. > :39:47.to see whether there was the chance of opening it up.
:39:48. > :39:50.It was much like the Mary Celeste situation, the last rota
:39:51. > :39:53.from the last week of operation was still on the notice board.
:39:54. > :39:57.There was sort of unfinished cups of coffee, bits of chocolate bars,
:39:58. > :39:59.there were people's belongings left in the lockers, their
:40:00. > :40:04.And that really was part of the appeal.
:40:05. > :40:08.And when we have brought our friends and those who might come to ride
:40:09. > :40:10.here in the intervening years, they've always said, try and leave
:40:11. > :40:16.The platform you are about to see looks much as it did on the day
:40:17. > :40:23.But now the railway is reopening as a visitor attraction with two
:40:24. > :40:27.battery-powered trains specially made in the UK, getting
:40:28. > :40:41.He's writing to the famous poet WH Auden at the GPO film unit.
:40:42. > :40:44.This is the night mail crossing the border, bringing the cheque
:40:45. > :40:55.Ah, yes, WH Auden and his celebrated poem to the post, the night mail.
:40:56. > :40:58.What is it about railways and the postal service that we seem
:40:59. > :41:04.It is a perfect storm for nerds, a railway,
:41:05. > :41:14.But for the rest of us, assuming we're not nerds,
:41:15. > :41:17.which is a big assumption, can enjoy it too, perhaps?
:41:18. > :41:20.Also because it looks like the log flume at Blackpool Pleasure Beach,
:41:21. > :41:23.presumably it goes quite fast, so you've got the basic
:41:24. > :41:29.You can feel when it's going down or up, which is
:41:30. > :41:35.And no disrespect, I like the unvarnished quality of it.
:41:36. > :41:37.You can see the stalagtites, or is it stalagmites,
:41:38. > :41:42.You can see the cladding, the rings that are put
:41:43. > :41:50.We are occasionally asked whether, like so many London Underground
:41:51. > :41:53.terminals, you might find a mouse or a rat down here.
:41:54. > :41:56.Because there were no people riding the trains and because there were no
:41:57. > :41:59.passengers on the platforms, there was no food for such things,
:42:00. > :42:03.so unusually for underground London, it was a relatively rodent free
:42:04. > :42:23.We've left Stephen Smith down there! The front page of The Times
:42:24. > :42:28.tomorrow, the Irish want a sea border with the UK after Brexit,
:42:29. > :42:33.Theresa May suffering a new setback in the negotiations of the Dublin
:42:34. > :42:36.have said that the proposed Irish border was unworkable. It will
:42:37. > :42:40.antagonise the DUP because it will object to any implication that
:42:41. > :42:42.Northern Ireland should not be treated as part of the UK.
:42:43. > :42:44.Before we go, 50 years ago today, the law in England
:42:45. > :42:48.and Wales changed - homosexuality was no longer illegal.
:42:49. > :42:55.One of those who spoke in favour of the law was the Earl of Arran.
:42:56. > :42:57.Here's an excerpt of his speech in 1966 -
:42:58. > :42:59.voiced for Radio 4 by the actor Alan Cumming -
:43:00. > :43:06.Because of the bill now to be enacted, perhaps a million human
:43:07. > :43:08.beings will be able to live in greater peace.
:43:09. > :43:12.I find this an awesome and marvellous thing.
:43:13. > :43:16.The late Oscar Wilde, on his release from Reading jail,
:43:17. > :43:20.wrote to a friend, "Yes, we shall win in the end but the road
:43:21. > :43:24.will be long and red with monstrous martyrdoms."
:43:25. > :43:27.My Lords, Mr Wilde was right, the road has been long
:43:28. > :43:32.and the martyrdoms many, monstrous and bloody.
:43:33. > :43:39.Today, please God, sees the end of that road.
:43:40. > :43:45.It isn't really the kind of whether we'd be hoping for at this time of
:43:46. > :43:46.year but in