:00:11. > :00:15.Violence is reaching a crisis in our prisons,
:00:16. > :00:18.to the point where we need to think about deploying the army
:00:19. > :00:22.Problems at two prisons in recent days,
:00:23. > :00:28.in Wiltshire and Hertfordshire, suggest violence is a new normal.
:00:29. > :00:34.You need extra resources sent into prisons to stabilise them short-term
:00:35. > :00:39.and you could consider using the army for that.
:00:40. > :00:41.We'll ask how bad it is inside, and how we let
:00:42. > :00:45.Turmoil and protest in Venezuela continues.
:00:46. > :00:47.Is it time for the left here, which enthusiastically
:00:48. > :00:50.backed the Venezuelan model, to recant?
:00:51. > :00:53.And it's been a long innings by any measure
:00:54. > :00:56.Well, for instance, we had a small yacht which we had to sell.
:00:57. > :00:58.I shall probably have to give up polo fairly
:00:59. > :01:03.On the day he retires, we look back at the career
:01:04. > :01:13.All that and Andrew Scott, too, from Moriaty to Hamlet.
:01:14. > :01:29.If you were in government and thinking about how
:01:30. > :01:31.to cut public spending, prisons would perhaps
:01:32. > :01:35.Prison cuts don't affect many people, and prisoners
:01:36. > :01:40.It is that logic that perhaps explains why there are now
:01:41. > :01:45.only 42,000 staff in the National Offender Management
:01:46. > :01:47.Service in England and Wales, while there were 49,000
:01:48. > :01:53.But the logic of cutting prisons has perhaps reached a limit.
:01:54. > :01:55.The pressure of fewer staff in overcrowded jails has
:01:56. > :01:57.seen violence rise - towards staff, other prisoners
:01:58. > :02:05.Bad things are happening in our jails, and it's no
:02:06. > :02:08.surprise the president of the Prison Governors Association
:02:09. > :02:10.has written an open letter attacking the government's
:02:11. > :02:28.Violence and rioting, volatility has gripped prisons in England and
:02:29. > :02:36.Wales. Run. The pressure in our prison service building for staff
:02:37. > :02:39.and inmates. Get down. A breakdown indoor and order caused by a
:02:40. > :02:45.shortage of staff and a growing prison population -- in law and
:02:46. > :02:50.order. A toxic mix according to the Prison Governors Association.
:02:51. > :02:56.Attacks on prison staff and drugs academic increasing concern around
:02:57. > :02:59.mental health and overcrowding, resources and rehabilitation, major
:03:00. > :03:05.issues for the prison service, and many are warning the system is at
:03:06. > :03:12.breaking point. Earlier this week specialist teams known as Tornado
:03:13. > :03:17.units were called into prisons in Hertfordshire following a riot, and
:03:18. > :03:21.it did not stop there, in Wiltshire there was also disturbances which
:03:22. > :03:27.resulted in violence against staff. But I would suggest the Secretary of
:03:28. > :03:33.State does is very sinister consider an appeal to staff who have left
:03:34. > :03:36.recently, experienced staff, through voluntary exit schemes, to create a
:03:37. > :03:40.task force to go back into those prisons causing most concern and get
:03:41. > :03:47.back control and create a regime and create stability. If that is
:03:48. > :03:51.insufficient armour I would suggest that you need extra resources sent
:03:52. > :03:54.into prison, simply to stabilise them short-term and you could
:03:55. > :03:58.consider using the army for that for example. It is a very radical
:03:59. > :04:02.measure, controversial and it carries risk, but the risks of doing
:04:03. > :04:07.nothing are simply too high in my view, to not at least consider
:04:08. > :04:12.exceptionally and for initial period time getting resources onto the
:04:13. > :04:18.landing is to restore control. There has been a sharp rise in prison
:04:19. > :04:22.violence the latest figures show nearly 27,000 assaults in prisons in
:04:23. > :04:27.the year to March, 20% more than last year. This includes more than
:04:28. > :04:32.7000 attacks on staff equating to 20 each day. There has to be some
:04:33. > :04:38.humility frankly from government to say that we made a catastrophic
:04:39. > :04:42.mistake in reducing staff so far so fast, and there is a widespread
:04:43. > :04:45.instability in prisons or stop unless it is tackled, I really do
:04:46. > :04:49.fear that we are going to see a member of staff killed on duty.
:04:50. > :04:56.Recruitment and retaining prison staff is a major problem. Over the
:04:57. > :04:59.last 12 months there has been a net increase of just 25 officers,
:05:00. > :05:03.meanwhile the prison population in England and Wales is growing. You
:05:04. > :05:08.have worked with prisoners and ex-offenders for more than 20 years,
:05:09. > :05:15.how bad is the situation? Possibly the worst it has been, I think, for
:05:16. > :05:19.probably 30 years, also. But Blake is pushing for urgent reform,
:05:20. > :05:22.something he has been calling for since the Strangeways riots in the
:05:23. > :05:27.90s and he believes too many are being put behind bars. The violence
:05:28. > :05:31.is a symptom of the reductions we have had in prison staff and the
:05:32. > :05:36.amount of time people are being blocked in their cells and the
:05:37. > :05:40.deterioration in terms of mental health that has contributed, we need
:05:41. > :05:47.to address the issue of groups of people who are in the system who we
:05:48. > :05:51.can divert elsewhere. We would highlight women, the women's prison
:05:52. > :05:54.population is at an all-time high, for the last 20 years, and people
:05:55. > :06:00.with mental health problems, we need to do much more. How long will
:06:01. > :06:03.prison reform take? From prison staff to the inmates locked away, be
:06:04. > :06:05.problems are clear to see but those caught in a system that leads urgent
:06:06. > :06:10.rehabilitation. -- needs. I'm joined now by Paula Harriot,
:06:11. > :06:13.who spent four years in jail for supplying drugs -
:06:14. > :06:17.and she now works hands on with people in prison for
:06:18. > :06:29.the organisation Revolving Doors. How have you seen it change, in the
:06:30. > :06:33.last 5-10 years? We have seen the impact of having less staff and more
:06:34. > :06:39.people in prison is Billy impacting on the ability to deliver any
:06:40. > :06:44.rehabilitation in prisons, and it has become about warehousing people
:06:45. > :06:51.and warehousing people who come into that prison unwell. Mental health
:06:52. > :06:58.problems, substance misuse problems. All sorts of challenges for the less
:06:59. > :07:05.rehabilitation, what does that mean, more hours in a cell? It means
:07:06. > :07:09.locked in a cell. How long? We have seen cases of people being locked up
:07:10. > :07:13.the entire weekend because of staff shortages, from Friday until Monday.
:07:14. > :07:20.That is simply traumatising for people. Imagine not being able to
:07:21. > :07:25.get out at all and how that plays on your ability to cope with the stress
:07:26. > :07:29.of the sentence, you can't access the phone to phone anybody. You are
:07:30. > :07:35.isolated and how that impacts on your mental health. Some people
:07:36. > :07:39.would say, you are in prison what do you expect, that is what you get
:07:40. > :07:43.when you go to prison. I agree, but the punishment is being pride of
:07:44. > :07:48.your liberty and I don't think it is being placed in a degrading
:07:49. > :07:55.situation -- being deprived of your liberty. How does the violence,
:07:56. > :07:58.round? A rather stupid question, but people locked in cells are not going
:07:59. > :08:02.to be getting up to any violence because there's nothing for them to
:08:03. > :08:10.do. The frustration builds and builds and escalate and so when you
:08:11. > :08:15.get out the anger and frustration is absolutely at the tipping point, the
:08:16. > :08:19.boiling point, and then people flare up over things that generally could
:08:20. > :08:26.be managed. In a more, in a different way. Have you witnessed
:08:27. > :08:29.any violence in prisons? I have been working since my own release in
:08:30. > :08:34.prison, I've been working constantly in prisons and directly with people
:08:35. > :08:43.who have been recently released from prison, having lots of contact, and
:08:44. > :08:46.I can see that the breakdown in communication, the breakdown in
:08:47. > :08:51.access to mental health services and substance misuse services, and
:08:52. > :08:55.psychological interventions, how staffing levels mean people can't
:08:56. > :09:00.get to health care. The one substance people are allowed to
:09:01. > :09:10.misuse is tobacco, the smoking ban is causing a worry. I think that is
:09:11. > :09:14.misjudged. In my information that I've had recently around the smoking
:09:15. > :09:22.ban, it is that people are then using spice. Which is much worse.
:09:23. > :09:25.And they are smoking it with tobacco, that is unadulterated and
:09:26. > :09:31.the impact of that is that it has escalated people's mental health and
:09:32. > :09:36.violence levels. Very briefly, the public want people to be punished.
:09:37. > :09:43.Supplying drugs, they want you to be punished but you got four years.
:09:44. > :09:48.What could we have done to signal disapproval in the way that we have
:09:49. > :09:51.done? I recently spoke to a magistrate about how we can minimise
:09:52. > :09:57.the amount of people that are being sent to prison and her answer was
:09:58. > :10:02.that we need a menu of options for magistrates, that sometimes they
:10:03. > :10:05.bail out of options. They run out of options to support people in the
:10:06. > :10:08.community to look at their funding behaviour and they don't have the
:10:09. > :10:13.ability to sentence people to mental health treatment and they don't
:10:14. > :10:18.utilise that as much as they could. They don't have the option to direct
:10:19. > :10:26.people to substance misuse treatment orders, and I think we need to have
:10:27. > :10:29.a much more coherent approach to using community sentencing to divert
:10:30. > :10:33.people out of the criminal justice system. Thanks for joining us.
:10:34. > :10:35.I'm joined now by Philip Wheatley - formerly Director-General
:10:36. > :10:37.of the National Offender Management Service and also a former
:10:38. > :10:39.Director-General of HM Prison Service.
:10:40. > :10:41.And the Conservative MP Dominic Grieve,
:10:42. > :10:44.who was Attorney General under the Coalition government.
:10:45. > :10:55.Good evening. Would you say it is crisis level in terms of violence
:10:56. > :11:00.and inability to looked after prisons the way you meant? I think
:11:01. > :11:04.it is a crisis in the way that you have seen a tripling in the level of
:11:05. > :11:08.assaults on staff since I left in 2010, it is difficult for staff to
:11:09. > :11:15.do their job safely on properly and that makes them likely to back off
:11:16. > :11:19.in the face of that aggression and it makes it difficult to run prisons
:11:20. > :11:23.safely. The level of assaults between prisoners and the extent to
:11:24. > :11:27.which spice has become the drug of choice, and is difficult to deal
:11:28. > :11:34.with, and now a series of incidents, master sword, that genuinely should
:11:35. > :11:39.be caught a crisis -- mass disorder. And we also have suicide which has
:11:40. > :11:45.doubled since I left and that means prisons are not safe for prisoners
:11:46. > :11:51.and staff and by not doing the job they should be doing in terms of
:11:52. > :11:54.reducing reoffending. We have heard that the state of things, do you
:11:55. > :12:00.recognise that is the state of jails in England and Wales? Yes, I do, the
:12:01. > :12:03.evidence is overwhelming and the problem is we have an overcrowded
:12:04. > :12:08.prison system and we have failed consistently to face up to that and
:12:09. > :12:13.to accept we have either got to reduce the prison population or
:12:14. > :12:17.provide more prisons and more prison officers, and while leadership in
:12:18. > :12:22.good prisons can do a great deal to reduce some of those issues, even if
:12:23. > :12:27.you have a shortage of staff, there comes a point where you can't go on
:12:28. > :12:30.doing that. And the message I think the government has got to take,
:12:31. > :12:36.either there has to be more investment and money being spent or
:12:37. > :12:40.we have got to find alternatives to prison is to reduce the prison
:12:41. > :12:44.population. We have failed to face up to this, and I get bombarded by
:12:45. > :12:49.people asking for prison sentences to be increased or for new offences
:12:50. > :12:55.to be created, which will lead to people being sent to prison, we have
:12:56. > :12:58.a knack in this country of seeing prison as the final destination for
:12:59. > :13:02.criminals and insisting that is where they should go, we have one of
:13:03. > :13:06.the highest prison populations in Europe per head. And we don't have
:13:07. > :13:13.the resources invested in order to do that. This is quite an indictment
:13:14. > :13:16.of your party in government, they have been there seven years and they
:13:17. > :13:22.have been talking the talk. Michael Gove said this is appalling, no
:13:23. > :13:28.point trying to minimise attention from the problems, but it hasn't
:13:29. > :13:30.been dealt with, why not? It is an indictment of every single
:13:31. > :13:34.government that has been in office was long as I have been in
:13:35. > :13:41.Parliament. This is a long-standing problem and in fairness, the present
:13:42. > :13:45.Justice Secretary who is a wise and sensible person has understood some
:13:46. > :13:49.of these issues and in the decisions that have been taken in getting more
:13:50. > :13:54.prison officers back, that is a step in the right direction, but it can
:13:55. > :13:58.only be a step, and we put people into prison and unless we have
:13:59. > :14:00.proper training and education programmes, what we're actually
:14:01. > :14:05.doing is putting a group of people with serious problems and a tendency
:14:06. > :14:10.towards criminality all together in one place. Should we be surprised in
:14:11. > :14:13.those circumstances if we can't deliver the programmes, but in fact
:14:14. > :14:21.they end up misbehaving within the prison system itself? We heard
:14:22. > :14:26.Philip Aitchison basically saying if you can't get the resources, you
:14:27. > :14:29.need to have the army ready whenever there is disruption, and he thinks
:14:30. > :14:36.there will be quite a bit, are the ready to step in, have we reached
:14:37. > :14:40.that point? -- are the army. That would make the situation worse, in
:14:41. > :14:45.my view, and the prison's ability to handle disorder and two ended
:14:46. > :14:47.without injury is quite considerable, they are skilled in
:14:48. > :14:52.doing it and they have succeeded in doing that, but the army are not
:14:53. > :14:57.trained for that. To deploy them in that role would be folly and to
:14:58. > :15:02.deploy them to supervise wings, when they have had no training, that
:15:03. > :15:06.would be folly, there training is in using lethal force, not in
:15:07. > :15:09.persuading people to do things, and that would make the situation was,
:15:10. > :15:15.but there is a crisis and we do have to deal with it. They have announced
:15:16. > :15:19.there will be more prison officers, 3000 extra prison officers in
:15:20. > :15:23.England and Wales. Will that make the difference that is required?
:15:24. > :15:32.It will help if they can recruit them. Part of the problem is that
:15:33. > :15:38.the pay for police officers has been forced down. They earn less than
:15:39. > :15:42.they used to when I was there. That is making the job unattractive in
:15:43. > :15:46.the south-east, where the economy is running hot and we have full
:15:47. > :15:56.employment. It is getting difficult to recruit. It is running just short
:15:57. > :16:00.of 10% of staff a year of turnover, so you have to recruit hard to stand
:16:01. > :16:05.still. We have to do something about both the attraction and the
:16:06. > :16:09.retention strategy, and talking doggedly about the government pay
:16:10. > :16:14.strategy looks like it's getting in the way of that, particularly in the
:16:15. > :16:23.south-east. What happens if we don't put in the extra resources and
:16:24. > :16:30.recruit more prison officers? What happens if we do nothing? It will
:16:31. > :16:35.continue to be a chaotic situation. The rehabilitation we want from the
:16:36. > :16:39.prison system, that the vast majority of inmates will be coming
:16:40. > :16:46.out after reasonably short periods of time, is going to be lost. It is
:16:47. > :16:51.in our interests to get this right. Coming back to my original point.
:16:52. > :16:56.The greatest driver is overcrowding. As long as we cannot get a grip on
:16:57. > :17:04.this as a society, we will constantly be behind the curve. We
:17:05. > :17:08.are not going to be able to address this issue. I have taken an interest
:17:09. > :17:13.in this subject for 20 years, as long as I've been in Parliament, and
:17:14. > :17:18.in that time, these problems have been in the background continuously.
:17:19. > :17:20.And the prison population has gone up by a third. Thank you both very
:17:21. > :17:23.much. More news breaking tonight
:17:24. > :17:25.on the tests into building cladding and insulation in the wake
:17:26. > :17:27.of the fire at Grenfell. Chris Cook has been
:17:28. > :17:37.following this whole issue Chris, just bring us up to speed
:17:38. > :17:41.with the tests. We heard a lot about test failures in the last few weeks.
:17:42. > :17:47.What the government was doing when they had all these failures was
:17:48. > :17:51.auditing the building, trying to work out what combustible materials
:17:52. > :17:55.were on buildings across England. They didn't know which combination
:17:56. > :18:00.of materials could be used together safely, because a lot of it will be
:18:01. > :18:07.OK because it will be installed in such a way to ensure that fire can't
:18:08. > :18:13.get to it. They are doing six tests to work out what combinations of
:18:14. > :18:18.materials can safely be used. So these are the big six. Forget
:18:19. > :18:23.everything else. What are these tests showing? We have a grid
:18:24. > :18:30.showing what these tests are. Down the left-hand side are the types of
:18:31. > :18:34.cladding they are testing. Limited combustibility cladding is the most
:18:35. > :18:43.fireproof stuff. Fire retardant cladding is slightly less. The last
:18:44. > :18:48.one is quite combustible. They are doing big tests with those installed
:18:49. > :18:55.alongside plastic foam, for one test, and mineral ball, the
:18:56. > :18:59.insulation. We had the Grenfell Tower combination last week, and
:19:00. > :19:06.that was a complete failure. What we learned tonight is polyethylene core
:19:07. > :19:17.cladding and mineral ball also failed the test. That polyethylene
:19:18. > :19:21.core cladding is gone, basically. The 193 tall buildings across
:19:22. > :19:26.England that have some kind of polyethylene core cladding on them
:19:27. > :19:31.will have to be taken down, realistically, because even when you
:19:32. > :19:36.have the safest type of installation, it cannot withstand
:19:37. > :19:39.the fire tests. We have four other boxes to look forward to. In
:19:40. > :19:43.exactly, and we don't know what they are going to say. They might say
:19:44. > :19:47.that's just a little bit has to be changed. Thank you very much.
:19:48. > :19:51.The constituent assembly elected - controversially - over the weekend,
:19:52. > :19:55.However, the company that provided the electronic voting
:19:56. > :19:58.system used in the vote said it thinks the government's
:19:59. > :19:59.claims on the huge turnout were exaggerated.
:20:00. > :20:01.Given the opposition were boycotting the vote,
:20:02. > :20:03.it was upon turnout that the legitimacy
:20:04. > :20:06.You'll have seen last night that opposition leaders have been
:20:07. > :20:08.arrested and detained, the EU is thinking
:20:09. > :20:10.about its response - probably not sanctions
:20:11. > :20:16.But protests in the country continue as it slides into disorder.
:20:17. > :20:28.We can speak to BBC correspondent Will Grant in Caracas.
:20:29. > :20:34.What is the latest, particularly on the swearing in of this constituent
:20:35. > :20:40.assembly, which I believe has been a bit late? That's right. It has been
:20:41. > :20:45.another one of these chaotic, ad hoc days in Venezuela, when you wake up
:20:46. > :20:49.and the news moves faster than ordinary people can keep up with.
:20:50. > :20:53.The announcement you mentioned in London by the company that runs the
:20:54. > :20:57.electronic voting system will have had real shock waves here, because
:20:58. > :21:02.of course the opposition will say that the numbers were inflated, but
:21:03. > :21:07.to have those claims are supported by the very people who are operating
:21:08. > :21:12.those systems gives credibility to them and not to the government. Mr
:21:13. > :21:20.Maduro is carrying on regardless, both with swearing in, and also with
:21:21. > :21:23.the socialist project more generally, everything that is
:21:24. > :21:28.happening in terms of sanctions against him personally and against
:21:29. > :21:33.his top leadership, he is wearing that as a badge of honour if
:21:34. > :21:38.anything, saying that it shows he's taking the right response to
:21:39. > :21:44.Washington, puffing out his chest at Donald Trump. This has a long way to
:21:45. > :21:49.go. There are more demonstrations, more conflict, and most ordinary
:21:50. > :21:51.Venezuelans caught in the middle and hoping it doesn't turn bloody. Thank
:21:52. > :21:53.you very much. At one time, Venezuela looked to be
:21:54. > :21:57.a country that could cock a snook at the global establishment
:21:58. > :21:58.and neo-liberalism. A left populist country,
:21:59. > :22:00.it attracted the attention of left-leaning politicians
:22:01. > :22:01.in this country. Veneuzuela was pioneering
:22:02. > :22:03.an alternative path. "Showing another way is possible",
:22:04. > :22:06.as Diane Abbott said five years ago. So as it falls into disrepair,
:22:07. > :22:08.what is the left's Jeremy Corbyn is under pressure
:22:09. > :22:12.from some of his own MPs to condemn Joining me now from Derby
:22:13. > :22:19.is the Shadow Home Office Minister, And from Glasgow, the Telegraph
:22:20. > :22:33.commentator and former Chris Williamson, you either have to
:22:34. > :22:37.face it that Maduro is in the right now, or you were in the wrong to
:22:38. > :22:45.support him earlier. What is the position of the left now? That is an
:22:46. > :22:49.unfair characterisation, if I might say so, because the circumstances
:22:50. > :22:54.have changed substantially in Venezuela in recent years. The
:22:55. > :22:59.collapse in the oil price and these violent protests, which have been
:23:00. > :23:04.aided and abetted by the USA, who have been funding opposition groups
:23:05. > :23:09.and have a very shady record going back many decades of interfering in
:23:10. > :23:17.Latin America, right back to Chile where President Nixon said he was
:23:18. > :23:24.going to make the opposition scream. We have had factory owners stopping
:23:25. > :23:31.production of products to cause shortages in the shops, the same
:23:32. > :23:35.tactics used in 1973 in Chile. So your response to seeing opposition
:23:36. > :23:40.leaders bundled out in the night and taken away and arrested is to
:23:41. > :23:47.condemn the United States? Is that your response? Not at all. That is
:23:48. > :23:54.unfair. Human rights are inalienable and universal. I am not an apologist
:23:55. > :23:58.for the Venezuelan government. Clearly, they made mistakes and
:23:59. > :24:03.didn't do enough to diversify the economy. They are under incredible
:24:04. > :24:07.pressure, and there is a very one-sided view of the situation
:24:08. > :24:14.there very often in the British media. I have yet to criticise any
:24:15. > :24:19.-- I had yet to hear any criticism of the opposition or of the United
:24:20. > :24:25.States. There is a reluctance to impose sanctions on the country. It
:24:26. > :24:28.would be better to bring the sides together in talks, and to encourage
:24:29. > :24:33.the right-wing opposition to stop these protests on the street. Just
:24:34. > :24:39.imagine if this was happening in this country, or in the USA. Many
:24:40. > :24:46.people involved in those protests would be facing long prison terms.
:24:47. > :24:51.Tom Harris, do you think that Jeremy Corbyn should recant his own views
:24:52. > :24:56.and saying he should condemn what Maduro is doing? I think he should.
:24:57. > :25:02.There are two very different positions in the Labour Party. Since
:25:03. > :25:11.the Second World War, Labour Party has been the party of Watson and
:25:12. > :25:16.Blair. They have managed to distance themselves effectively from some of
:25:17. > :25:21.these Marxist outfits. Jeremy Corbyn and the hard left have never met a
:25:22. > :25:24.banana republic they didn't like. When Jeremy Corbyn started talking
:25:25. > :25:30.about Venezuelan being an example that Britain should follow, nobody
:25:31. > :25:35.really paid attention, because he was an anonymous backbencher who
:25:36. > :25:40.often said strange things. Now he is the leader of the party, we have an
:25:41. > :25:45.absolute right to know whether he regrets or recants what he said. It
:25:46. > :25:50.would be a sign of political maturity to come out of hiding and
:25:51. > :25:55.say that he got it wrong. Do you think he will do that? There are
:25:56. > :26:00.things that the Venezuelan government has got wrong, but I'm
:26:01. > :26:05.not sure what Tom is saying here. He is a free marketeer. What was the
:26:06. > :26:11.situation like in Venezuelan before Hugo Chavez came to power? Chaotic,
:26:12. > :26:19.great inequality, grow test poverty... Do you think you are
:26:20. > :26:33.closer to Chappers and Maduro in your political philosophy, or Tony
:26:34. > :26:40.Blair? -- to Hugo Chavez and Maduro? That is quite a question! Can you
:26:41. > :26:46.not answer it? When a government is doing good things, as they certainly
:26:47. > :26:51.were under Hugo Chavez, a huge reduction in poverty and investment
:26:52. > :26:57.in health care, that is surely a thing we should celebrate. Putting
:26:58. > :27:03.up a false dichotomy of asking who I am closer to is an irrelevant
:27:04. > :27:11.question. I have to give five seconds, the last word. I'm sorry.
:27:12. > :27:15.Tom, I'm sorry. We have given far too little time. In a few words,
:27:16. > :27:23.would you not say there is hypocrisy all over the place? The important
:27:24. > :27:34.point is that nobody in the Labour Party, or no Saudi -- has looked at
:27:35. > :27:42.Saudi Arabia and said it is an example to follow. It has been said
:27:43. > :27:47.that using the example of Venezuelan is something for Great Britain to
:27:48. > :27:54.follow. This is an opposition -- government that is killing people
:27:55. > :27:59.and locking them up. The CIA are not forcing Maduro's government to
:28:00. > :28:03.torture and imprison people, and they should be outraged. I'm so
:28:04. > :28:06.sorry. We are out of time. Thank you.
:28:07. > :28:10.It seems as though we get a new Hamlet on the West End stage
:28:11. > :28:13.almost as often as a new head of media in the White House.
:28:14. > :28:15.Benedict Cumberbatch has played the Prince of Denmark,
:28:16. > :28:18.Tom Hiddleston will take on the role later this year - but currently
:28:19. > :28:21.winning golden opinions in the part is the Irish actor Andrew Scott,
:28:22. > :28:23.who you may know as Moriarty in the hit series Sherlock.
:28:24. > :28:28.His Hamlet has deliberately been pitched to younger audiences,
:28:29. > :28:30.with 300 seats a night on sale to the Under-30s.
:28:31. > :28:33.Stephen Smith has been to the Harold Pinter Theatre to meet him.
:28:34. > :28:36.Tis sweet and commendable in your nature, Hamlet.
:28:37. > :28:38.To give these morning duties to your father.
:28:39. > :28:41.Andrew Scott's Hamlet wears his fencing gear almost
:28:42. > :28:50.He says the production he leads looks at Hamlet's plight
:28:51. > :28:55.The thing that feels the most timely is the relationship
:28:56. > :29:01.It's a story about a young man whose father has just died and everybody
:29:02. > :29:04.in his family is saying, move on, move on, you're the Prince,
:29:05. > :29:13.And so because he is at the centre of the state, something rotten
:29:14. > :29:23.I don't think you can play Hamlet in the sense,
:29:24. > :29:28.you can't just put on this antic position and make it is apparent
:29:29. > :29:30.to everybody that your lunatic in inverted commas because that's
:29:31. > :29:32.not the way mental health presents itself.
:29:33. > :29:38.People can relate to what grieving is.
:29:39. > :29:40.I think we're on a very exciting time in the world
:29:41. > :29:45.about what we understand in mental health and our attitude
:29:46. > :29:50.towards being ashamed of sometimes being a little bit ill.
:29:51. > :29:52.Do you draw on anything particular for that?
:29:53. > :30:02.I think grief can manifest itself in a lot of different ways,
:30:03. > :30:10.You have to bring an awful lot of yourself to the park.
:30:11. > :30:12.Tis an unweeded garden grown to seed.
:30:13. > :30:29.So excellent, a king, it was, was, to this.
:30:30. > :30:32.One of the things I really wanted to do was to be able to speak
:30:33. > :30:35.Not to kind of pretend that they're not there.
:30:36. > :30:38.But actually you're live and and you're going,
:30:39. > :30:44.So if someone does sneeze or laugh too loud or sometimes the rain comes
:30:45. > :30:55.You can't pretend that that's not happening.
:30:56. > :30:59.And that is what I think keeps it live and present, people say,
:31:00. > :31:07.Robert Icke's production of Hamlet has consciously appealed to younger
:31:08. > :31:09.audiences with discounts for the under 30s.
:31:10. > :31:17.It's this fear mongering that goes on, that young people that watch
:31:18. > :31:20.Sherlock aren't going to be able to watch Hamlet without snapchatting
:31:21. > :31:30.If they are going to be watching Shakespeare for the first time,
:31:31. > :31:35.it's our job to make it as interesting as a box set.
:31:36. > :31:42.Rob, our director, he says it shouldn't be
:31:43. > :31:48.You know, do your Shakespeare, like kind of chore.
:31:49. > :31:50.They say that about Newsnight, by the way.
:31:51. > :31:58.I can still prove that you created an entirely false identity.
:31:59. > :32:00.Oh just kill yourself, it's a lot less effort.
:32:01. > :32:02.Scott is probably best known as the suave but
:32:03. > :32:12.dastardly Moriarty in the hugely successful Sherlock.
:32:13. > :32:21.What prospect of more cases for the sleuth of Baker Street?
:32:22. > :32:30.I'm afraid to say, don't expect much.
:32:31. > :32:37.I don't think the door is ever fully closed.
:32:38. > :32:40.I think it definitely could do with a bit of
:32:41. > :32:44.Mark Gatiss says it is the Fawlty Towers thing.
:32:45. > :32:53.I think everybody is busy doing their thing.
:32:54. > :32:55.I don't have much to report on that front.
:32:56. > :33:01.You're not going to pop up in a Christmas special?
:33:02. > :33:07.007, I'd like you to meet Max Denby, the head of the joint
:33:08. > :33:09.It's a pleasure to finally meet you, 007.
:33:10. > :33:13.Congratulations on your new appointment.
:33:14. > :33:26.Scott almost did for another great British hero, James Bond, as a
:33:27. > :33:31.We are going to bring British intelligence out of
:33:32. > :33:35.A gay James Bond, female Doctor Who,
:33:36. > :33:39.It's almost impossible to speak of those things
:33:40. > :33:44.Because two straight people and two black people
:33:45. > :33:46.and two gay people can be completely distinct
:33:47. > :33:50.from each other, given the attributes, and those
:33:51. > :33:52.are the things that you play, you play those attributes and not
:33:53. > :34:22.Andrew Scott, talking to Steven Smith.
:34:23. > :34:27.It has been Prince Phillip's day - the day of his last
:34:28. > :34:31.He greeted Royal Marines involved in a 1,600 mile charity race -
:34:32. > :34:35.And it has been quite a marathon for the Duke in his 65 years
:34:36. > :34:38.22,219 solo engagements, including 5,490 speeches.
:34:39. > :34:40.I've not been counting, but that's the reported totals.
:34:41. > :34:43.And of course there are many, many more occasions at which
:34:44. > :34:49.The solo engagement count comes in at 340 per year, which is quite
:34:50. > :34:52.reasonably regarded as a good strike rate, getting on for one a day,
:34:53. > :34:58.Just before we came on air, I spoke to Martin Palmer.
:34:59. > :35:00.Spiritual adviser and long time friend of Prince Phillip.
:35:01. > :35:04.And to Arthur Edwards - the Sun's veteran Royal photographer.
:35:05. > :35:07.First I asked Martin if he found the Duke easy to get along with.
:35:08. > :35:10.Yes, very, as long as you don't catch him on a bad
:35:11. > :35:18.Mornings are not his best time, especially early morning.
:35:19. > :35:23.I remember, we were on Mount Athos and I had to get him up at three
:35:24. > :35:26.to go to a service and then we had to leave to take the
:35:27. > :35:33.We actually cleared the deck of an entire ship, leaving
:35:34. > :35:36.from Mount Athos back to the mainland of Greece
:35:37. > :35:38.because we had a flaming row about something.
:35:39. > :35:42.When I went downstairs, they said, are you going to be executed?
:35:43. > :35:52.You could have a row with him, could you?
:35:53. > :35:58.I would just talk to him like I'm talking to you.
:35:59. > :36:02.You would say Philip? No, not usually.
:36:03. > :36:05.He would always say, if I went, now, Sir, he would go, OK,
:36:06. > :36:08.what am I being asked to do that I should not do.
:36:09. > :36:11.If I didn't bother to say that, we would just have a conversation.
:36:12. > :36:14.Because otherwise it gets in the way, I have to say.
:36:15. > :36:15.Arthur, similarly informal and pleasant?
:36:16. > :36:17.No, he treated the media like telegraph poles.
:36:18. > :36:19.They were there and he walked round them.
:36:20. > :36:21.I never had one conversation, except when I met him
:36:22. > :36:27.And after photographing him for ten years, there was a press reception
:36:28. > :36:30.in Washington and I was introduced, Arthur Edwards from The Sun.
:36:31. > :36:32.And he said, is that the Baltimore Sun?
:36:33. > :36:34.I thought, God, I'd been there ten years.
:36:35. > :36:39.We've got some of your pictures. Let's have a look at this first one.
:36:40. > :36:41.Arthur, tell us what we're looking at.
:36:42. > :36:43.This is a picture where Prince Charles has just
:36:44. > :36:46.And Lord Mountbatten and Prince Philip,
:36:47. > :36:48.And they are just congratulating him.
:36:49. > :36:54.What I love about that picture, Lord Mountbatten was hugely close
:36:55. > :36:57.to the Prince of Wales and just having his arm on his shoulder
:36:58. > :37:01.And a year later, of course, he was killed in Ireland.
:37:02. > :37:04.We went back there a couple of years ago with the Prince
:37:05. > :37:10.There was a time when I think he saw himself as the patriarchy
:37:11. > :37:13.of the family and the Queen would be the matriarch of the
:37:14. > :37:18.I think putting it simply, he wore the trousers
:37:19. > :37:20.within the household, in order that she could wear
:37:21. > :37:25.And that really was important to him.
:37:26. > :37:33.He was there to support her, he ran the family, the family
:37:34. > :37:35.business side of things and that was the first priority,
:37:36. > :37:38.Let's look at the next picture, Arthur.
:37:39. > :37:50.They have just been looking at the terracotta warriors and that,
:37:51. > :37:53.you thought, would have been the picture of the day,
:37:54. > :37:57.Because the Prince was speaking to some students and he said,
:37:58. > :38:00.The kids were saying they were bored.
:38:01. > :38:03.He said, you will end up with slitty eyes.
:38:04. > :38:06.A very intrepid reporter called Harry Arnold from The Sun got that,
:38:07. > :38:08.and before you know it, it was the splash.
:38:09. > :38:10.And we splashed on that story two days running.
:38:11. > :38:14.I remember the headline, "Philip gets it all wong".
:38:15. > :38:17.And the next day was, "Queen velly velly angry".
:38:18. > :38:19.We've never splashed on the Queen two days running
:38:20. > :38:21.on a royal tour ever, but that story...
:38:22. > :38:25.I was asked for some advice on this because China is my area.
:38:26. > :38:28.I have to say, we've brought a lot of Chinese
:38:29. > :38:30.to see him because we work with all the major religions.
:38:31. > :38:37.He has a great affection for the Taoists of China.
:38:38. > :38:39.And they're always bemused that The Sun would think
:38:40. > :38:41.this was a great story, because they just thought
:38:42. > :38:46.They didn't know how insulting it is?
:38:47. > :38:48.No, because, remember, the Chinese refer to us
:38:49. > :38:52.People who haven't been properly reincarnated.
:38:53. > :39:00.despite the good efforts of your make-up people.
:39:01. > :39:04.For them, that kind of humour, almost slapstick humour, it's fine.
:39:05. > :39:07.It was the uptight Brits who had a problem with it, not the Chinese.
:39:08. > :39:09.Some in the diplomatic service were absolutely...
:39:10. > :39:21.I think just the idea that he has these gaffes every now and then.
:39:22. > :39:23.I think that's when it became a thing, really.
:39:24. > :39:28.Yes, and also, you know, I'm delighted he did have the gaffes.
:39:29. > :39:32.He was only playing jokes with people, that was the thing.
:39:33. > :39:35.In fact, he castigated us once for reporting them,
:39:36. > :39:38.and he did admit to the slitty eyes, and he did admit that he said
:39:39. > :39:41.to aboriginals, "You're chucking spears at each other."
:39:42. > :39:43.But, he said, "You were not supposed to hear that.
:39:44. > :39:51.It's also this problem - if it's the 1000th person
:39:52. > :39:54.you've met this week, and I've seen the most
:39:55. > :39:57.incredibly intelligent, bright, active people
:39:58. > :40:08.OK, sometimes fairly heavily, but he is Navy, to sort of just
:40:09. > :40:19.This is bringing us much closer to the present.
:40:20. > :40:24.I mean, I have to tell people - it's the Duke of Edinburgh.
:40:25. > :40:27.It's at Windsor Horse Show, and it's pouring with rain.
:40:28. > :40:30.It's really a miserable day, but he brought carriage driving
:40:31. > :40:33.to prominence in Britain when he took part in it, and I think
:40:34. > :40:45.And when he's retired, he'll carry on doing it
:40:46. > :40:47.and when he goes for it, when he's in competition,
:40:48. > :40:53.So, I didn't like him for years, but ended up loving him, because...
:40:54. > :40:57.I thought he was very rude to the press.
:40:58. > :41:00.But, slowly over the years, I've got to love him.
:41:01. > :41:04.Now, when we go on an engagement, we won't be saying, "What colour do
:41:05. > :41:09.you reckon the Queen will be wearing today?".
:41:10. > :41:12.We'll be saying, "Do you think the Duke will come today?".
:41:13. > :41:26.We have a 92nd retrospective of his career on Twitter which we did not
:41:27. > :41:31.have time to run in the programme -- 90 seconds.
:41:32. > :41:34.That is just about it for tonight but we're not leaving yet -
:41:35. > :41:36.because we have another of our Proms Playouts now -
:41:37. > :41:39.tomorrow at the Albert Hall is a Brahms and Mozart night
:41:40. > :41:41.and on the programme is the hugely acclaimed young Norwegian
:41:42. > :41:44.Tomorrow she'll be playing Mozart, but tonight, for us,
:41:45. > :41:46.she is playing a piece from her new album.
:41:47. > :41:49.It is Estrellita by the Mexican composer, Manuel Ponce.
:41:50. > :41:51.Vilde is accompanied on the piano by Gamal Khamis.
:41:52. > :44:19.Southern areas bore the brunt of the wet weather today, tomorrow the
:44:20. > :44:21.wettest conditions will