:00:00. > :00:08.Corbyn's Venezuela conundrum - he doesn't want to desert his
:00:09. > :00:11.old friends running the country, but he can't avoid acknowledging
:00:12. > :00:18.In the end, he steered a carefully nuanced in-between line,
:00:19. > :00:24.but the Venezuelan opposition tell us he's got it wrong.
:00:25. > :00:32.Maybe the mothers and fathers of those that have been killed would be
:00:33. > :00:34.willing to speak to Jeremy Corbyn to explain and to tell him what the
:00:35. > :00:38.real situation has been. Justin Gatlin was booed
:00:39. > :00:40.for his success at the World His agent explains why
:00:41. > :00:46.the crowd had got it wrong. 80% of Google software
:00:47. > :00:49.engineers are male. Or a sign that women
:00:50. > :00:53.aren't into programming? There's an argument
:00:54. > :00:56.at Google about it. And we'll ask if it's
:00:57. > :01:00.politically incorrect to even Stacey Dooley meets
:01:01. > :01:14.some its supporters. How helpful do you think it is to
:01:15. > :01:17.put these posters on the bonfire? Because they are our enemies. We
:01:18. > :01:21.belong to Britain. We are British. We are British subjects. I hold a
:01:22. > :01:27.British passport and I'm proud to say I'm British.
:01:28. > :01:31.We don't know what the Venezuelans think of Jeremy Corbyn,
:01:32. > :01:34.but we do now know what Mr Corbyn thinks about Venezuela.
:01:35. > :01:38.He's back from a holiday in Croatia and was under immediate pressure
:01:39. > :01:40.to condemn the socialist government in Venezuela, having given it warm
:01:41. > :01:48.It's not good to be too supportive of a government arresting political
:01:49. > :01:52.opponents in the dead of night, but Mr Corbyn has a good deal
:01:53. > :01:55.of political capital invested in Nicolas Maduro's Venezuela.
:01:56. > :01:59.So how the big question today, was how he would
:02:00. > :02:03.Many of his colleagues are clear, Maduro is to be condemned.
:02:04. > :02:09.What I condemn is the violence that's been done by any side,
:02:10. > :02:13.Violence is not going to solve the issue.
:02:14. > :02:16.The issues of Venezuela are partly structural because not enough has
:02:17. > :02:19.been done to diversify the economy away from oil.
:02:20. > :02:22.That has to be a priority for the future.
:02:23. > :02:26.We also have to recognise there have been effective and serious attempts
:02:27. > :02:29.to reduce poverty in Venezuela and improving literacy
:02:30. > :02:35.and improving the lives of many of the poorest people.
:02:36. > :02:38.Earlier this evening, I spoke to Juan Andres Mejia, founding
:02:39. > :02:42.member and National Director of one of the main Venezuelan opposition
:02:43. > :02:48.I asked whether it is right that both sides are responsible
:02:49. > :03:01.I don't think it's fair. What has happened in the past four months in
:03:02. > :03:04.our country is that you have had the majority of Venezuelans protesting,
:03:05. > :03:09.demanding change, demanding free and fair elections and they have been
:03:10. > :03:15.received by the National Guard and the police with tear gas, with
:03:16. > :03:18.rubber bullets and sometimes too with regular bullets with shot guns.
:03:19. > :03:22.More than 120 people have been killed. According to the
:03:23. > :03:26.Attorney-General, this is the person that was not a supporter of the
:03:27. > :03:31.opposition until recently, she has said that more than 90% of those
:03:32. > :03:39.that have been killed are opposition protesters. Especially young people,
:03:40. > :03:42.between the ages of 20 and 30. There has been violence in Venezuela. We
:03:43. > :03:49.condemn all violence. Its not fair to say it has been on both sides.
:03:50. > :03:53.There is one side that has insisted in protesting peacefully and every
:03:54. > :03:57.time that the police or National Guard appears, it ends with people
:03:58. > :04:04.being killed. Just tell us about the opposition and who they are. The
:04:05. > :04:16.opposition has evolved since it began in Venezuela. Today you have
:04:17. > :04:25.parties from all ideologies. You have leftist parties, such as Accion
:04:26. > :04:30.Democrata. Such as Popular Will, my own party. And you have centre-right
:04:31. > :04:37.parties. The most important fact is that the opposition now has younger
:04:38. > :04:45.leaders, younger members of Congress who want change for all Venezuelans
:04:46. > :04:52.and who believe that this change has to happen within democracy. It is
:04:53. > :04:56.more Democrats and those who wish to change the rules by which we have
:04:57. > :05:02.governed this country for the past 50 years. The socialist experiment
:05:03. > :05:07.in Venezuela has failed and it has failed very badly. The economic and
:05:08. > :05:12.political crisis we have is tremendous. There has never been
:05:13. > :05:23.something like. A lot of people are not eating three times a day. Many
:05:24. > :05:29.people are eating from the garbage. Scarcity of basic goods is clear.
:05:30. > :05:33.For most people who are willing to elect a different president, the
:05:34. > :05:36.struggle nowadays is not between two halves, two parts of the country. It
:05:37. > :05:40.is between the majority of the people who want change and those who
:05:41. > :05:44.refuse to allow it. You're a party of the left, we should be clear.
:05:45. > :05:49.Yeah. Are you saying socialism doesn't work and you've seen that in
:05:50. > :05:55.Venezuela. Excuse me when I speak about socialism in such an easy way,
:05:56. > :05:59.because when we say socialism in Venezuela we mean more Communist
:06:00. > :06:07.than anything else. In Venezuela this is not a socialist experiment,
:06:08. > :06:12.to be fair. It's more of a leftist, autocratic experiment. There's no
:06:13. > :06:17.freedom of expression. There is no freedom of speech. You have hundreds
:06:18. > :06:24.of political prisoners in our country. So this is not a very
:06:25. > :06:30.socialist experiment. This is a country where those in power have
:06:31. > :06:36.tremendous benefits. They move around the city of Caracas with
:06:37. > :06:40.bodyguards, in bullet-proof cars. They have become an elite
:06:41. > :06:46.themselves, while the rest of the country has been suffering. This is
:06:47. > :06:49.not a socialist government. This is an elite, call themselves
:06:50. > :06:53.socialists, but their interest is staying in power forever. Your party
:06:54. > :06:57.Popular Will, is a member of the socialist international, which
:06:58. > :07:04.actually means it is affiliated through that to the Labour Party in
:07:05. > :07:09.the United Kingdom. I mean, how important is it that foreign left of
:07:10. > :07:14.centre parties support your side of this argument rather than the Maduro
:07:15. > :07:23.side? It is very important because the government has a strong
:07:24. > :07:27.propaganda team. It is not fair, we don't feel supported when
:07:28. > :07:32.governments around the world present the situation here as if it was a
:07:33. > :07:37.conflict between left and right-wing parties. This is a conflict between
:07:38. > :07:39.democracy and dictatorship. This is a conflict between respecting human
:07:40. > :07:42.rights and violating human rights. This is a conflict between the
:07:43. > :07:49.majority of the people who want change and who want to bring that
:07:50. > :07:52.change with elections and between a minority who is willing to do
:07:53. > :07:57.anything to stay in power. What do you think when you see Jeremy Corbyn
:07:58. > :08:00.essentially trying to steer a rather fine line between the two sides in
:08:01. > :08:05.this? What I would say to Jeremy Corbyn is that he really has to know
:08:06. > :08:11.what's going on in our country to be able to make a statement. Violence
:08:12. > :08:16.has not been done by both sides. Violence has been promoted by the
:08:17. > :08:21.government. They have armed paramilitary groups that have taken
:08:22. > :08:26.the lives of hundreds of people in Venezuela. Maybe the mothers and
:08:27. > :08:31.fathers of those that have been killed would be willing to speak to
:08:32. > :08:39.Jeremy Corbyn to explain and to tell him what the real situation has
:08:40. > :08:42.been. People such as a 17-year-old teenager, who went out to the
:08:43. > :08:49.streets to protest because he was convinced that he should have a
:08:50. > :08:54.different future. Other people such as a man killed by a gunshot, shot
:08:55. > :08:59.by a member of the National Guard and all he was trying to do was
:09:00. > :09:04.raising his voice for a different country for democracy. I'm pretty
:09:05. > :09:09.sure the family of these people that have been killed are willing to let
:09:10. > :09:12.Jeremy Corbyn know what the real situation has been and how they have
:09:13. > :09:17.been killed during the past four months. Thank you so much. Thanks
:09:18. > :09:19.for your time tonight. No-one says it's easy
:09:20. > :09:21.to make spending decisions in the NHS right now,
:09:22. > :09:24.but among the unpleasant choices being made in parts of the country,
:09:25. > :09:27.are cuts in IVF treatments. The NHS standard - set by NICE,
:09:28. > :09:30.the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence -
:09:31. > :09:33.is that women under 40, unable to conceive for two years,
:09:34. > :09:36.should be offered three cycles But, the group Fertility Network UK
:09:37. > :09:46.has found that almost half the areas in England have decided to breech
:09:47. > :09:48.that standard - cutting the three cycles to two or one
:09:49. > :09:52.or none, in some cases. With no NHS IVF, the only option
:09:53. > :10:00.is then to go private. Elaine Dunkley has been to Bristol,
:10:01. > :10:15.where they are consulting on plans This baby is Ellie's dream come
:10:16. > :10:19.true. At 39 and after years of trying to conceive, Ellie's first
:10:20. > :10:23.round of IVF was successful. Ellie was forced to go private and says
:10:24. > :10:27.the system is unfair for those who can't afford to pay. We decided to
:10:28. > :10:31.go private because I was refused by the NHS because I had an early
:10:32. > :10:34.miscarriage. They told me I was subfertile rather than infertile.
:10:35. > :10:39.They wouldn't fund it. Not being able to have a baby was horrendous.
:10:40. > :10:42.I know not all people this is what they want. For me, it was my world.
:10:43. > :10:47.It was everything I wanted. Then to be turned down by the NHS and told
:10:48. > :10:50.they weren't going to help me was absolutely devastating. It's a lot
:10:51. > :10:54.of money. For a lot of people that money isn't available. I was really
:10:55. > :10:58.fortunate that my family was able to help me. But I know not everybody is
:10:59. > :11:02.in that situation. If we have to go for a second round of IVF, we will
:11:03. > :11:10.have to remortgage the house or get a loan. Under guidance by NICE,
:11:11. > :11:14.those aged under 40 with fertility problems should be offered up to
:11:15. > :11:18.three cycles of IVF. Those aged between 40 and 42 should be offered
:11:19. > :11:23.one, if they meet a certain criteria. But this doesn't always
:11:24. > :11:28.happen. A cycle of IVF can cost in excess of ?3,000. Decisions on who
:11:29. > :11:31.is eligible are taken by local clinical commissioning groups. It's
:11:32. > :11:35.becoming a postcode lottery because of the way we commission in the UK.
:11:36. > :11:39.It doesn't have to be in that way, because we have NHS England for
:11:40. > :11:43.example that has a national programme for Jen itics associated
:11:44. > :11:50.with IVF. The commissioning groups are able to not only decide whether
:11:51. > :11:54.they will fund IVF but to provide restrictive elability criteria if
:11:55. > :11:58.they do fund it. Very few people get access to IVF that actually require
:11:59. > :12:02.it. Some describe it as unethical, unfair and discriminatory, but
:12:03. > :12:05.ultimately it comes down to cost and whether the NHS should be funding
:12:06. > :12:10.the desire to become a parent when money is needed in so many other
:12:11. > :12:14.areas. Five areas have now stopped offering IVF. Since the beginning of
:12:15. > :12:18.this year, the number of cycles women are entitled to has been
:12:19. > :12:22.reduced by 12 clinical commissioning groups. And in September, these
:12:23. > :12:27.areas will decide on whether IVF should be restricted to women who
:12:28. > :12:34.are 30 to 35, those most likely to conceive with treatment. One of
:12:35. > :12:41.those areas is in Bristol, the place where the world's first test tube
:12:42. > :12:43.baby was born. Mr Acardi has helped thousands conceive and doesn't
:12:44. > :12:49.believe age should be the only factor. Success rates are very
:12:50. > :12:53.reasonable until the age of 42. So yes, one can take an individual
:12:54. > :12:59.approach and clinics do that all the time. Remember, fertility,
:13:00. > :13:03.infertility itself is classified as a disease. That means there are some
:13:04. > :13:08.couples and some people where without help there is absolutely no
:13:09. > :13:15.way they will be able to achieve a pregnancy. Therefore, they need
:13:16. > :13:20.medical help. Every day the NHS is forced to make difficult decisions
:13:21. > :13:24.over what it can and can't afford. This is little consolation to those
:13:25. > :13:29.who feel time and funding is against them.
:13:30. > :13:32.It's really unfair that people are treated differently across the
:13:33. > :13:36.country, you've got the postcode lottery. I can understand there's
:13:37. > :13:37.funding issues and they need to find ways to restrict it, I think the way
:13:38. > :13:43.they're doing it is really unfair. Well, now we are joined
:13:44. > :13:46.by Professor Robert Winston, a world expert in fertility and one
:13:47. > :13:49.of the early pioneers of IVF, also the freelance journalist
:13:50. > :13:51.Sirena Bergman, who has written in the Independent today that IVF
:13:52. > :13:54.is costly and ineffective and its time to stop offering it
:13:55. > :14:07.on the NHS. You would argue that there shouldn't
:14:08. > :14:11.be a postcode lottery and the NHS should pay. Thank you for putting my
:14:12. > :14:15.argument for me. That's helpful. Explain why. I agree with that. If
:14:16. > :14:18.we have a National Health Service it has to be national. At the moment we
:14:19. > :14:24.have local Health Services because of the reforms in the Health
:14:25. > :14:29.Service. That leads to inequality, inequity. What's the right level to
:14:30. > :14:34.pay? Is it what NICE have specified, three for women at this age? Three
:14:35. > :14:38.cycles is reasonable. There are a number of countries in Europe that
:14:39. > :14:41.offer free IVF and who have a similar cost for their Health
:14:42. > :14:45.Service that we do. They are investing the same amount. It's not
:14:46. > :14:47.just shortage of money. It is a politically taken decision
:14:48. > :14:50.essentially by most of the commissioners. Why did you write
:14:51. > :14:55.that this shouldn't be a priority for the NHS? I think it's something
:14:56. > :15:00.that I feel very strongly about. The NHS is woefully underfunded. We all
:15:01. > :15:04.know that. The NHS exists to keep us healthy. IVF isn't a cure to an
:15:05. > :15:08.illness. It's a solution for people who feel they're not achieving their
:15:09. > :15:16.life goals. I don't think that is the responsibility of the NHS.
:15:17. > :15:25.Have you had children? I don't see how that's relevant. It is very
:15:26. > :15:31.relevant. You don't have to answer the question and I don't mean to be
:15:32. > :15:35.discourteous but I have published hundreds of scientific papers and
:15:36. > :15:40.you have kindly called me a pioneer, but of my achievements my three
:15:41. > :15:44.children are what changed my life because they are the Next Generation
:15:45. > :15:49.and that's what we can contribute to. People who are infertile suffer
:15:50. > :15:55.hugely, they suffer the pain just the same as someone with an
:15:56. > :16:03.arthritic hip. This is not being fully understood and you should know
:16:04. > :16:06.better than that, I think. Sirena, I'm not going to ask whether you
:16:07. > :16:10.have had kids but I'm interested to know whether you accept the feelings
:16:11. > :16:16.people have about whether they can have kids or not are as big to them
:16:17. > :16:20.as they may be for some of the other things the NHS spends money on.
:16:21. > :16:23.Absolutely, the feelings for the individual are incredibly strong and
:16:24. > :16:28.my heart goes out to people who cannot conceive naturally and want
:16:29. > :16:38.to. But we consider the best way to become a parent is by conceiving
:16:39. > :16:40.naturally and giving birth to a child, there are actually a huge
:16:41. > :16:42.amount of options for people who cannot conceive and by putting so
:16:43. > :16:50.much money into IVF and presenting it as the number one auction are not
:16:51. > :16:56.giving alternatives. There is no children shortage. I'm afraid
:16:57. > :16:59.adoption is not a treatment for infertility. Infertility is a
:17:00. > :17:09.symptom of a disease and there are at least 100 different causes. At
:17:10. > :17:16.the moment there is a message -- massive wastage of money. Moreover,
:17:17. > :17:22.IVF is not being costed properly because in some authorities it costs
:17:23. > :17:26.?1000, in others in this country it costs ?6,000 so until the NHS gets
:17:27. > :17:31.its act in order there is a massive problem. The problem is costing in
:17:32. > :17:41.the NHS is completely random. It is a big issue. But Sirena raises the
:17:42. > :17:46.point, why not encourage people to adopt? Because there are less than
:17:47. > :17:51.1000 babies that can be adopted each year and people don't necessarily
:17:52. > :17:54.want to adopt a child that might have had very adverse experiences
:17:55. > :17:59.early in life. Most of the children you are referring to have been in
:18:00. > :18:04.care for years and you cannot adopt them early in life. I think it is a
:18:05. > :18:13.brave person who is prepared to adopt somebody under those
:18:14. > :18:21.circumstances. What is the point of Nice? May come up with a standard,
:18:22. > :18:26.then the authorities go their own way and ignore it. I do think that
:18:27. > :18:32.is a problem. You should know if you are going to be GP you will receive
:18:33. > :18:38.the same care at the point of NHS. I also think it is telling that areas
:18:39. > :18:42.are making these difficult choices, it doesn't reflect well but they
:18:43. > :18:48.know they have to do it because we are facing such a huge crisis. Very
:18:49. > :18:54.briefly, if you had to cut IVF services would you cut the age
:18:55. > :19:00.threshold or the number of cycles? I would do IVF when it is really
:19:01. > :19:03.needed, and at the moment nearly half are unnecessary. The work we
:19:04. > :19:09.are doing now, the research we are doing can reduce the cost and I
:19:10. > :19:11.think that is urgently needed. OK, we will leave it there. Thank you,
:19:12. > :19:13.both. Justin Gatlin won the 100m
:19:14. > :19:15.at the World Athletics If you watched, you could probably
:19:16. > :19:20.tell the crowd was not happy. The booing undoubtedly reflected
:19:21. > :19:23.the fact that Gatlin has served two doping bans and the feeling that,
:19:24. > :19:26.as a result, it was unfortunate that he beat Usain Bolt
:19:27. > :19:28.in this showcase event. But open-mindedness is a virtue,
:19:29. > :19:31.and there are many in the athletics business who think that
:19:32. > :19:33.Justin Gatlin deserves a lot more Among them is Gatlin's
:19:34. > :19:37.agent, Renaldo Nehemiah. I spoke to him earlier,
:19:38. > :19:51.and he told me about The first doping offence happened
:19:52. > :19:55.when Justin Gatlin was a freshman at the University of Tennessee, taking
:19:56. > :20:03.out a role for attention deficit disorder. They recognised he wasn't
:20:04. > :20:10.trying but because of the rulings he was suspended for a year. They
:20:11. > :20:15.didn't want it to reflect on his record, it was in the record that
:20:16. > :20:20.they didn't want it to reflect as a doping offence or that he was
:20:21. > :20:26.doping. The next second offence was some type of cream applied to his
:20:27. > :20:32.skin in early April Spring meeting back in 2006. But he did claim he
:20:33. > :20:36.was effectively sabotaged by a therapist who was actually trying to
:20:37. > :20:42.damage his career because they were in dispute with the management,
:20:43. > :20:49.correct? He had fired that massage therapist the previous fall, against
:20:50. > :20:54.my better judgment we couldn't find any other physios that we could
:20:55. > :21:00.afford at that time. Can you see why the crowds have great anger at
:21:01. > :21:06.people who have doping offences? I can see it back in 2010 when he
:21:07. > :21:14.first returned, 2011, when he was running again, possibly even as
:21:15. > :21:19.early as 2012. He ran in the London Olympic Stadium and won the bronze
:21:20. > :21:28.medal and no one said a word. No one said a word in 2013, 2014 or even
:21:29. > :21:31.2015. Then suddenly when he started to challenge Usain Bolt when nobody
:21:32. > :21:35.else could challenge him it became an issue. I don't have a problem
:21:36. > :21:39.with everyone feeling the same way about anti-doping but let's be
:21:40. > :21:44.honest, Justin Gatlin is not the only athlete who has tested
:21:45. > :21:49.positive. He didn't create doping and there will be others after him.
:21:50. > :21:53.It is unfair. There will be others in the stadium this week that have
:21:54. > :21:59.come off doping offences. I cannot speak because they are not winning
:22:00. > :22:04.but he has done his time, made by the rules, the IAAF reinstated him
:22:05. > :22:09.and we should accept that. To put the narrative out that it is just
:22:10. > :22:15.Justin Gatlin and he's the bad guy, it is not fair, it is inhumane, it
:22:16. > :22:22.is not sportsmanlike. How did he feel after he wins the 100m and he's
:22:23. > :22:28.booed? I had prepared him prior to this. We had been talking about a
:22:29. > :22:32.year and a half prior to that not everyone will accept you and you
:22:33. > :22:39.cannot please everyone. He who hasn't done wrong, and he without
:22:40. > :22:44.sin should cast the first stone. You cannot control the viewpoints of
:22:45. > :22:49.anyone, but he has conducted himself in a professional manner. Here is
:22:50. > :23:01.the icing on the cake. He gave Usain Bolt the greatest respect by bowing
:23:02. > :23:06.to him and Usain Bolt hugged him. He has no problem with Justin Gatlin,
:23:07. > :23:14.he's a great competitor, so if it's good for Usain Bolt it should be
:23:15. > :23:18.good for everyone else. Usain Bolt in his graciousness at published
:23:19. > :23:24.that in the press conference. I'm OK with that. If the King, the legend
:23:25. > :23:27.is OK with it, we all should be. What do you think though of the
:23:28. > :23:33.professional commentators, the media, some of those involved in
:23:34. > :23:37.international athletics, even Sebastien Coe and Steve Cram who
:23:38. > :23:43.have taken a very hard line on Justin Gatlin and have done a lot to
:23:44. > :23:49.set opinion about him? Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I take
:23:50. > :23:53.offence to Lord Coe, he's part of the IAAF who set the rules and
:23:54. > :24:01.punishments, and when you do that you are supposed to be reinstated
:24:02. > :24:12.which means athletes who have offended have, and you don't allow
:24:13. > :24:19.them in and still condemned them. We are talking Post 11 years after the
:24:20. > :24:23.ban. Other sports release their own and move past it. I don't have a
:24:24. > :24:29.problem with anyone having any issue with doping, I don't condone it but
:24:30. > :24:34.I don't think Justin Gatlin is the poster child for it. That is fact,
:24:35. > :24:38.and I will always say that. Thank you so much for making that case.
:24:39. > :24:41.An internal memo written by a male employee at Google has caused
:24:42. > :24:46.The author set out the view that some of the gender gap at Google,
:24:47. > :24:49.for example in the numbers of men and women employed as software
:24:50. > :24:51.engineers, may not be as a result of sex discrimination,
:24:52. > :24:54.but simply as a result of biological differences in the way skills
:24:55. > :24:55.and characteristics are distributed between the sexes.
:24:56. > :24:58.His memo has found its way into the public domain
:24:59. > :25:01.and if you want to read it, you can google it obviously, and
:25:02. > :25:31.The memo argues women and men are different.
:25:32. > :25:46.So the main point... Now the writer is at pains to point out you cannot
:25:47. > :25:50.stereotype based on gender but his sharpest critique is of the kind of
:25:51. > :26:09.corporate diversity that Google promotes.
:26:10. > :26:13.Which brings us to the response of Danielle Brown, Google's
:26:14. > :26:15.new head of Diversity, Integrity and Governance.
:26:16. > :26:17.She chose not to take on the argument -
:26:18. > :26:28.Well, the memo raises two questions - one is whether the author
:26:29. > :26:31.is right that genders differ in the distribution of attributes.
:26:32. > :26:33.But the other question is whether this should be
:26:34. > :26:41.Is there an authoritarian liberalism, that tries
:26:42. > :26:48.With me are the writer and campaigner Caroline Criado-Perez
:26:49. > :26:52.and the Director of the Institute of Ideas, Claire Fox.
:26:53. > :26:58.Caroline, do you think it is possible the writer is correct to
:26:59. > :27:03.say the reason there are fewer women programmers is because they are not
:27:04. > :27:07.as into programming? There is no evidence to suggest this is a result
:27:08. > :27:12.of biological difference. The idea that having a uterus makes me less
:27:13. > :27:16.predisposed to programming as opposed to the way we bring up boys
:27:17. > :27:23.and girls, for which there is a lot of evidence. I found it interesting
:27:24. > :27:29.reading his blog how much emphasis he put on facts and let's be
:27:30. > :27:34.rational about this and yet provided no citations or evidence. Is it
:27:35. > :27:37.possible he is right? There's no evidence he cites, he says it makes
:27:38. > :27:43.evolutionary sense and says it is true across different cultures...
:27:44. > :27:48.When you look at the actual evidence, so for example there is
:27:49. > :27:52.plenty of evidence showing if you submit two scientific CV is, one
:27:53. > :27:57.with a male name and a female name, exactly the same other than that,
:27:58. > :28:02.the male name gets employed and gets given a higher salary. He makes
:28:03. > :28:08.claims about women not negotiating, actually evidence shows women do
:28:09. > :28:12.negotiate but get penalised for it. This guy is perfectly entitled to
:28:13. > :28:16.his opinion, it's just that I have no respect for it because it's not
:28:17. > :28:22.based on evidence. On the substance of the issue, do you think he has a
:28:23. > :28:26.point or not? I don't agree with his point, but one substantial point he
:28:27. > :28:31.makes which I'm more sympathetic to his he says the reason why there are
:28:32. > :28:35.not as many female programmers for example is not because of sexism in
:28:36. > :28:41.many companies, and I am sympathetic to that because everywhere I look,
:28:42. > :28:44.and there is evidence for this of course, and every institution is
:28:45. > :28:48.bending over backwards to try to do something about diversity and gender
:28:49. > :28:54.imbalance. There is something else going on. The other thing is it's
:28:55. > :28:59.quite interesting because he spoke about psychological differences as
:29:00. > :29:02.well. This is an argument I have with many contemporary feminists,
:29:03. > :29:07.I'm not saying you, but they say what we need is more female MPs and
:29:08. > :29:12.more females on boards because that will lead to a softer, less
:29:13. > :29:17.aggressive atmosphere in Parliament. I think that implies there is some
:29:18. > :29:22.kind of innate femininity that makes you a nicer person so that identity
:29:23. > :29:27.point of what he says is very familiar to us. When it is said by
:29:28. > :29:33.feminists it's greeted as an interesting thought, when it is said
:29:34. > :29:37.by this guy, it is let on, where is your evidence? To be fair to
:29:38. > :29:42.feminists, there is disagreement within feminism and evidence
:29:43. > :29:48.suggests there isn't an innate... There is a fantastic book written by
:29:49. > :29:52.this actually. Studies continue to accumulate showing educated women in
:29:53. > :29:58.industrial democracies when they get choice they opt for socially
:29:59. > :30:02.meaningful work and fewer hours. Women do 75% of the underpaid care
:30:03. > :30:06.and governments to provide good childcare.
:30:07. > :30:12.We might have women choosing for reasons that society organises,
:30:13. > :30:15.doesn't give you enough child care or whatever the reasons, it's
:30:16. > :30:20.society that might mean that women choose to work less hours and so on.
:30:21. > :30:25.That means that they therefore might not be choosing to do things with
:30:26. > :30:30.long hours. It's not Google the sexist company. How free is that
:30:31. > :30:35.choice? I know, but the point... Claire's point is it wouldn't be
:30:36. > :30:38.Google's fault. I'm not suggesting that Google is deliberately - This
:30:39. > :30:44.guy is making the point that's what is said. A great story last year. A
:30:45. > :30:48.point made about a very, very bright young daughter who was equally good
:30:49. > :30:54.as sciences as the arts. She chose to do the arts, she was treated as
:30:55. > :30:59.though she was betraying the sifterhood because she wouldn't --
:31:00. > :31:02.sisterhood because she wouldn't take up stem subjects. The important
:31:03. > :31:05.thing is that women are going to be the engineers of the future, they
:31:06. > :31:08.say. Brilliant. I love things like code first girls an the work they
:31:09. > :31:13.do. I like all that stuff. But I think it has to be that they choose.
:31:14. > :31:17.There is a danger, this is what this guy argues, that what happens is
:31:18. > :31:21.that women who don't choose to take up stem issues get accused of not
:31:22. > :31:27.being pioneers in the science and technology issues. Do you, would you
:31:28. > :31:31.say that - you know people draw generalisations about left and right
:31:32. > :31:35.handed people. Studies will say left handed people are better at maths,
:31:36. > :31:40.because of right brain dominance. Do you reject all this afternoon and
:31:41. > :31:44.just think it's nonsense? I mean, you know, I'm not going to be
:31:45. > :31:49.completely dogmatic about it and say that there is no way in any future
:31:50. > :31:55.there will be some kind of - but I would say that whatever we find will
:31:56. > :31:58.be so minuscule as to be fairly irrelevant and will not demonstrate
:31:59. > :32:03.any way enough of a difference between the sexes to show why we
:32:04. > :32:06.have such a big difference. The science isn't 100% there to
:32:07. > :32:11.determine whether it's biology or society. It's legitimate to make the
:32:12. > :32:15.point. He can make whatever point he wants. And not get the sack. I don't
:32:16. > :32:20.care what he believes he's just wrong. No, but this is very
:32:21. > :32:24.important. He wrote this actually largely about how diversity has
:32:25. > :32:28.become an ideology in Google. Hiring policies have been re-organised
:32:29. > :32:32.around Diversity ends rather than hiring people who are best for the
:32:33. > :32:38.job. I think that does no-one a service, certainly not women for
:32:39. > :32:40.whom it is patronising. This guy is now getting absolutely
:32:41. > :32:44.internationally pillaried and hammered for being anti-women. He
:32:45. > :32:50.isn't. He raises an important illiberalism. I'm so sorry - The
:32:51. > :32:54.best person for the job, because Diversity can lead to being the best
:32:55. > :32:57.person for the job. It doesn't guarantee it. We need to leave it.
:32:58. > :32:59.There -- to leave it there. Thanks both
:33:00. > :33:00.very much. The DUP may be the most successful
:33:01. > :33:03.electoral force in Northern Ireland, but in the rest of the UK the party
:33:04. > :33:07.has something of an image problem. It is often seen as stuck
:33:08. > :33:09.in the past, too religiously conservative, and sometimes
:33:10. > :33:12.illiberal, or even bigoted. A party for old people,
:33:13. > :33:17.not the young. So, is that image fair,
:33:18. > :33:20.or simply a reflection of people making too little effort to get
:33:21. > :33:23.to know the DUP and its supporters? Well, Stacey Dooley makes
:33:24. > :33:25.documentaries for BBC Three, which is of course primarily aimed
:33:26. > :33:27.at the younger audiences, and Stacey has been
:33:28. > :33:30.to Northern Ireland to meet some of the party's supporters to get
:33:31. > :33:37.to know the DUP better. Right now, I am on my way
:33:38. > :33:41.to go and have a chat Ruth is a DUP supporter
:33:42. > :33:45.and I think she actually campaigns for them as well,
:33:46. > :33:47.so heavily involved. She's 19, so just
:33:48. > :33:59.started voting really. My dad is Ian Paisley Jr's election
:34:00. > :34:13.agent, so this was in 2010 when Dr Paisley was
:34:14. > :34:18.helping Ian canvas. I agree with all their views,
:34:19. > :34:27.but also things in Northern Ireland, it's more than just
:34:28. > :34:29.like the political views on gay marriage and stuff,
:34:30. > :34:33.it's about, like, keeping Sinn Fein out and they have very real
:34:34. > :34:36.terrorist links in the past. What are your thoughts
:34:37. > :34:38.on gay couples? I believe it's wrong, there's no
:34:39. > :34:44.easy way about that, but... I have been called a homophobe
:34:45. > :34:49.before, which is not true, because I have simply said
:34:50. > :34:53.there that I disagree. Tell me what is so wrong when a man
:34:54. > :34:56.kisses another man or has You can't have sex like, erm,
:34:57. > :35:09.you can't have children with two males, you can't have children
:35:10. > :35:13.with two women. Do you ever feel for Ruth
:35:14. > :35:29.because her opinions are sometimes seen as being very extreme
:35:30. > :35:32.or radical, controversial? Do you think it difficult for Ruth
:35:33. > :35:36.at 19 to sort of stick her heels in? I think it probably is, because I
:35:37. > :35:39.think there's an expectation amongst people in general,
:35:40. > :35:41.and particularly for young people that they should be liberal
:35:42. > :35:44.in their outlook. But I think you have to do what's
:35:45. > :35:48.right, especially if you feel you're standing before God, that
:35:49. > :35:53.you have to be right before him. And I don't think being very
:35:54. > :35:58.conservative with a small C necessarily means that you,
:35:59. > :36:01.you know, there shouldn't be a hatred towards people that
:36:02. > :36:04.you don't agree with. Whereas I feel that's coming
:36:05. > :36:06.the other way at the moment. I think that's the reason
:36:07. > :36:12.possibly while you are here. Because there is that feeling
:36:13. > :36:17.that the DUP are extreme. Jackie and Ruth aren't the only DUP
:36:18. > :36:21.voters I meet who believe the party has been treated unfairly
:36:22. > :36:26.following the deal. Young unionists in Northern Ireland
:36:27. > :36:30.show their loyalty to Britain How do you think the DUP
:36:31. > :36:46.are being perceived back in England? They are being made out
:36:47. > :36:53.as if they are so against gays and they are really against abortion
:36:54. > :36:57.and all, but it is the inner beliefs of the party and that's really,
:36:58. > :37:01.for me anyway, that's Do you blame the DUP for turning
:37:02. > :37:07.the screw on Theresa May? No, I don't blame Arlene Foster
:37:08. > :37:10.for saying, right, you want to play If they were in the DUP's shoes,
:37:11. > :37:19.they would have done 1.5 billion, that will be hopefully
:37:20. > :37:25.poured into your communities. Well, I hope the government stays
:37:26. > :37:31.as long as it can, like. I've been brought up being British,
:37:32. > :37:35.don't know anything else. Where are they, Sinn Fein
:37:36. > :37:41.and you say the others are Catholics and all,
:37:42. > :37:43.they want just to wipe us When they say they want
:37:44. > :37:47.the British out of Ireland, I need to meet the other side
:37:48. > :37:54.that seem so threatening The second largest political party
:37:55. > :38:03.in Northern Ireland is Sinn Fein. I'm meeting Dominic and Tam,
:38:04. > :38:08.two of their supporters, They have said, you know, with every
:38:09. > :38:15.inch of themselves they would never ever in a million years entertain
:38:16. > :38:20.the idea of not being British As far as I'm concerned,
:38:21. > :38:27.a united Ireland is inevitable. And I think the more they sit down
:38:28. > :38:30.and engage about it and actually discuss what it would be
:38:31. > :38:34.like within it rather than a blinkered approach
:38:35. > :38:36.of never, never, never. I don't think it's a pipe dream,
:38:37. > :38:39.I think it's something I definitely It's this faith that
:38:40. > :38:45.Ireland will become united In Protestant areas,
:38:46. > :38:51.they're building bonfires to commemorate a 320-year-old battle
:38:52. > :38:56.won by a Protestant king. I've come to the Cragar Estate to
:38:57. > :39:01.understand more about the DUP vote. Gwen is the community worker
:39:02. > :39:04.who is in charge of safety Let me ask you this,
:39:05. > :39:10.Gwen, do you think... How useful, how helpful do
:39:11. > :39:15.you think it is to put these We are British, we
:39:16. > :39:23.are British subjects. I own a British passport and I am
:39:24. > :39:26.proud to say I'm British. Sinn Fein want the united Ireland,
:39:27. > :39:29.that is the way they brought That is their main aim, and they
:39:30. > :39:35.will do it through any means. I actually believe that we are more
:39:36. > :39:38.British than the English are, Why do so many people
:39:39. > :39:42.vote for the DUP here? We are sort of forced
:39:43. > :39:44.to vote for DUP, bringing Do you agree with everything
:39:45. > :39:51.the DUP stand for? With same-sex marriage
:39:52. > :39:55.and things, we don't care. We have people in here that are gay
:39:56. > :39:58.and we don't have a problem I suppose I came here assuming that
:39:59. > :40:07.I would be spending time with people who were intolerant towards same-sex
:40:08. > :40:10.relationships, same-sex Actually on the ground,
:40:11. > :40:17.so many people here aren't intolerant toward their neighbours,
:40:18. > :40:25.the nationalists. Because the Prime Minister
:40:26. > :40:30.is relying on the DUP, it's hard for her to be
:40:31. > :40:33.seen as truly neutral The danger is that Theresa May's
:40:34. > :40:42.deal with the DUP will deepen That was Stacey Dooley,
:40:43. > :40:54.and a longer version of her BBC Three film,
:40:55. > :40:58.Stacey Dooley Meets DUP Voters, Now, before we go,
:40:59. > :41:07.although we like to think we've been able to provide you with a whole
:41:08. > :41:10.40-minute programme full of serious news, some of our colleagues
:41:11. > :41:12.in other outlets have been, shall we say, struggling
:41:13. > :41:14.with the news drought Here's the News
:41:15. > :41:26.Channel's Simon McCoy. Just bear in mind, it is August.
:41:27. > :41:31.This does not look like a walk in the park. Dog owners and their pets
:41:32. > :41:34.in California have hit the waves in the second annual world dog surfing
:41:35. > :41:41.Championships. Here are the pictures. There's confidence,
:41:42. > :41:44.there's the size of the waves. Some events have big waves, some small.
:41:45. > :41:52.There's style and technique. It's really interesting. The competitors'
:41:53. > :41:58.main challenge is to stay afloat on the board. This is near San
:41:59. > :42:03.Francisco. There are prizes for the best dressed and tandem surfing
:42:04. > :42:07.dogs, the winner being crowned top dog.
:42:08. > :42:10.That's a shame, we've run out of pictures.
:42:11. > :42:11.I would like to have seen the extra pictures.
:42:12. > :42:14.Maybe he should have taken a leaf out of another news anchor's book.
:42:15. > :42:23.What you're about to see is a Channel 4 news exclusive. This is
:42:24. > :42:34.Nutty the squirrel. He's three years old. How about that! That squirrel
:42:35. > :42:38.can water-ski! That's hillarious. Hello, Tuesday is shaping up to be a
:42:39. > :42:42.rather disappointing day again for the greater part of England and
:42:43. > :42:43.Wales. It may not start