:00:08. > :00:08.Questions on culture, religion and sex.
:00:09. > :00:11.It doesn't come more awkward than that, but in the wake
:00:12. > :00:13.of several street grooming crimes involving Muslims, questions
:00:14. > :00:19.They are not Asian, but are they Japanese,
:00:20. > :00:22.No, they are Muslim of Pakistani extraction,
:00:23. > :00:23.Bangladeshi descent, Turkish connections, whatever.
:00:24. > :00:30.Why we afraid to say they are Muslim?
:00:31. > :00:33.Tonight, with a panel of four young Muslims, we hear the debate
:00:34. > :00:35.within their community, on what the problem is,
:00:36. > :00:45.Also tonight, the paradox of the national flag carrier.
:00:46. > :00:46.British Airways' profit is flying high.
:00:47. > :00:54.But the brand seems to be having an ever bumpier ride.
:00:55. > :00:57.You know that feeling when a guy you like sends you a text at two
:00:58. > :01:00.clock on a Tuesday night asking if he can come and find you?
:01:01. > :01:08.And too much too food, as Facebook launches its version of TV, we
:01:09. > :01:10.wonder whether the industry can keep up the pace on the production of
:01:11. > :01:19.blockbuster shows. After Rotherham, Rochdale, Oxford,
:01:20. > :01:24.Derby and quite a few other cases, and now Newcastle, the pattern
:01:25. > :01:26.of street grooming of young girls by gangs of mainly Pakistani
:01:27. > :01:30.or other Asian Muslim Today, Ken Macdonald, a former
:01:31. > :01:38.Director of Public Prosecutions, said it is "a disease of racism
:01:39. > :01:41.and sexism that will not abate Labour MP Sarah Champion said that
:01:42. > :01:46."people are more afraid to be called a racist than they are afraid to be
:01:47. > :01:50.wrong about calling out child abuse", which has inhibited
:01:51. > :01:53.exposure of wrong-doing. She asked, "Why are we not
:01:54. > :01:55.commissioning research to see what is going on and how we need
:01:56. > :01:59.to change what is going on, It's a good question,
:02:00. > :02:03.so we are going to ask it for the first part
:02:04. > :02:05.of the programme this evening. First, Rabiya Limbada
:02:06. > :02:30.reports from Oxford. Nens, some of the 18 and one woman
:02:31. > :02:36.convicted of abusing girls in Newcastle tsm men convicted were
:02:37. > :02:38.mainly British-born, and came from Bangladeshi, Pakistani, Indian,
:02:39. > :02:44.Iraqi, Iranian and Turkish communities.
:02:45. > :02:50.A report in 2011 by the child exploitation and online protection
:02:51. > :02:52.centre identified over 2000 potential localised grooming
:02:53. > :03:00.offenders, ethnicity data was only available for one third. Of these,
:03:01. > :03:04.49% were white, and 46% Asian. These figures include both group and
:03:05. > :03:09.individual cases of grooming. But, they are stark when you
:03:10. > :03:19.consider the UK Asian population is round 7%. I can hear a woman getting
:03:20. > :03:23.slapped about. A police call made by a guest who was is concerned about
:03:24. > :03:28.what he could hear in the room next door to him in Exford. In 2013 seven
:03:29. > :03:33.men were jailed for abusing six girls in Oxford over an eight year
:03:34. > :03:38.period. In that case, known as operation bullfinch two of men were
:03:39. > :03:42.of east African origin and five Pakistani, a Serious Case Review in
:03:43. > :03:46.2015 called for research into why a significant proportion of people
:03:47. > :03:51.convicted in these kinds of cases are of Pakistani and or Muslim
:03:52. > :03:55.heritage. So far, that research has a been forthcoming.
:03:56. > :04:01.The Muslim community in Oxford are still trying to answer those
:04:02. > :04:03.question, themselves. I think quite often their fathers are disconnected
:04:04. > :04:08.from what it is is like to grow up in England. They have come from back
:04:09. > :04:12.home, and so these boys are trying to navigate themselves through an
:04:13. > :04:16.awful lot of emotions and challenges, and their fathers can't
:04:17. > :04:21.give them the right guidance or the right advice. So they find it
:04:22. > :04:26.elsewhere, and often that leads to bad company. Hear many of the
:04:27. > :04:31.victims of the grooming gang were picked up girls as young adds 11
:04:32. > :04:35.plied with alcohol and drugs and subjected to the most appalling
:04:36. > :04:40.sexual abuse, there have been efforts by community groups and
:04:41. > :04:46.religious leaders to get people to talk openly about what happened.
:04:47. > :04:53.Many say not enough has been done. We should stop pussyfooting about
:04:54. > :04:58.and says these are Asian men, they Japanese, Korean, Malaysian? They
:04:59. > :05:00.are Muslim of Pakistani extraction, Bangladeshi descent, Turkish
:05:01. > :05:05.connections whatever, why are we after Fred to say they are Muslim
:05:06. > :05:09.Who why are we being politically correct? Unless we really tackle
:05:10. > :05:14.this head on, we are not going to solve this. OK but whose
:05:15. > :05:20.responsibility is this is this We the Muslim community have a great
:05:21. > :05:22.responsibility to condemn this in publish there are 2 thousand mosques
:05:23. > :05:27.in this country. How many do you think tomorrow will be nameling and
:05:28. > :05:30.shaming all of those 17, 18 people. The biggest challenge now facing the
:05:31. > :05:35.authorities investigating these cases, is how to get Muslim
:05:36. > :05:38.communities to trust them enough, to tell them what is happening in their
:05:39. > :05:40.tell them what is happening in their midst.
:05:41. > :05:44.As you heard, the statistics say that Asians are about 50% more
:05:45. > :05:46.likely to be convicted of a sexual offence than the rest
:05:47. > :05:49.For street grooming offences more specifically,
:05:50. > :05:53.But before we move on, a quick statistical point.
:05:54. > :05:55.It's dodgy to make ethnic or religious generalisations
:05:56. > :05:58.comparing Muslims and non-Muslims, on the basis of a tiny
:05:59. > :06:05.Even if a Muslim man was ten times more likely to be
:06:06. > :06:08.convicted of a sexual offence than a non-Muslim - which he's not -
:06:09. > :06:12.You are literally talking about comparing a population
:06:13. > :06:23.a population that is 99.96% non-offending.
:06:24. > :06:29.group, and it makes little difference to the group overall.
:06:30. > :06:31.So you have to be careful about sweeping judgments
:06:32. > :06:33.on the differences between these groups.
:06:34. > :06:38.However, that being said, a lot of people think
:06:39. > :06:40.that the numbers understate important cultural characteristics
:06:41. > :06:42.of different religions and that the Muslim community more
:06:43. > :06:48.So with me now is a panel, exclusively Muslim,
:06:49. > :06:56.The journalist Anira Khokhar, the founder of British Muslim
:06:57. > :06:59.Youth Muhbeen Hussain, the film-maker and journalist
:07:00. > :07:03.Mobeen Azhar and Saba Zaman, a journalist based in Bristol.
:07:04. > :07:06.Ing and shaming all of those 17, 18 people.
:07:07. > :07:07.The biggest challenge now facing the authorities investigating these
:07:08. > :07:10.cases, is how to get Muslim communities to trust them enough, to
:07:11. > :07:12.tell them what is happening in their midst. Good evening. I want to
:07:13. > :07:15.started whether we are framing this OK by saying we have a Muslim panel
:07:16. > :07:21.discuss bhag is a Muslim problem. Muhbeen. Is that, do you reck nigh
:07:22. > :07:25.that as a problem. No we are framing it incorrectly. We have had a guy
:07:26. > :07:32.come on in the earlier piece saying it is not Japanese or these
:07:33. > :07:37.different culture, Islam is a religion of all cultures, the
:07:38. > :07:41.largest Muslim population in the world is Indonesia, to say this is a
:07:42. > :07:47.Muslim problem. These grooming gangs were individuals that were using
:07:48. > :07:51.alcohol, drugs and having sessions exploiting these young girl, I don't
:07:52. > :07:55.know what is Islamic about drinking alcohol and exploiting young girls.
:07:56. > :08:02.You want to separate it from the religion? Do the rest of you feel
:08:03. > :08:08.that? He has a fair point. There are cultural parallels that are being
:08:09. > :08:12.made, and religious parallels across the media, generally, there are no
:08:13. > :08:18.religious parallel has been made so in your intro it is interesting.
:08:19. > :08:23.What I do find interesting is we have a Muslim panel here, but this
:08:24. > :08:25.situation is not just exclusively Muslim community, it is across all,
:08:26. > :08:30.but it doesn't mean it doesn't happen and it needs to be addressed.
:08:31. > :08:33.What do you feel There is a thing here, there is a pattern, that
:08:34. > :08:39.reoccurring whenever this happen, I am sure you can relate to this. When
:08:40. > :08:44.you hear these stories breaking, you wince when you hear Muslim names,
:08:45. > :08:49.and as a community, we are really uncomfortable and really used to
:08:50. > :08:53.reacting. We are used to reacting and saying this is nothing do with
:08:54. > :08:58.us our or community. I don't think anyone in their right mind would say
:08:59. > :09:02.this is a theological issue, they are doing this because they are good
:09:03. > :09:08.Muslim, known would say that, having said that, we have to acknowledge
:09:09. > :09:15.that sex and sexuality and gender and respect for the opposite gender,
:09:16. > :09:18.are issues within certain parts of the south Asian community, the Arab
:09:19. > :09:22.community and large sections of the Muslim community. These are things
:09:23. > :09:26.that we have to discuss, in our communities and we have seen this
:09:27. > :09:29.pattern, in Newcastle and Rotherham and we can't shy away from these
:09:30. > :09:34.issues. I go back to you on that, do you agree with that? It is a
:09:35. > :09:38.different way of framing it, but do you buy what is being said?
:09:39. > :09:42.Partially we have to look at this, but recognise we are dealing with
:09:43. > :09:46.it. Let me give you a clear image of what had in Rotherham, when the
:09:47. > :09:49.Rotherham grooming scandal came about the British Muslim youth
:09:50. > :09:52.organised the first demonstration against these criminals that were
:09:53. > :09:56.claiming to be from our communitiches we demonstrated. You
:09:57. > :10:00.will never see the far right come out against Jimmy Savile. I have not
:10:01. > :10:05.see the EDL outside the BBC studios. We have people coming out. In fact
:10:06. > :10:12.it was a Pakistani man who recognised these people and it came
:10:13. > :10:14.out. Help us out. It is between these different interpretations of
:10:15. > :10:19.how we frame the problem are are you? The labelling is incorrect. I
:10:20. > :10:23.don't think it is a Muslim problem, as the rest of the panel have
:10:24. > :10:27.suggested and we happen to be Muslims, which it would have been
:10:28. > :10:31.nice to have other religions because it is not just the Muslim community
:10:32. > :10:34.who have the issue, we have seen many cases where there has been
:10:35. > :10:39.white groups, that have been grooming and there has been young
:10:40. > :10:43.children being raped but we don't label them as white Christian
:10:44. > :10:46.grooming gang, we label them by name or we label them as just a group,
:10:47. > :10:51.and I think it is unfair that that is not the same, these are criminals
:10:52. > :10:55.at the end of the day. They should be treated like that. Even if they
:10:56. > :11:00.weren't, as I have seen across the board, the media hasn't called it
:11:01. > :11:07.out adds a Muslim specific case in this particular case today. I
:11:08. > :11:11.mentioned it earlier I think when even if it is not due the names and
:11:12. > :11:14.the cultural associations there are cultural assumptions that are made
:11:15. > :11:18.when there are people from certain communities with certain names
:11:19. > :11:23.backgrounds, this is from the south Asian diaspora. It is hard to
:11:24. > :11:28.separate that. It does exist. Can I ask you, start us off on this, about
:11:29. > :11:31.the cultural issues attitudes to sex, you kind of raised this, you
:11:32. > :11:37.clearly think there is a bit of an issue. Of course there is. It made a
:11:38. > :11:43.programme a few I think about a year ago called The Muslim Sex Doctor I
:11:44. > :11:48.spent time shadowing an imam working in this field, and he was very open,
:11:49. > :11:52.he would tell me within, and I know this, you guys must know this from
:11:53. > :11:57.within the Pakistani community there are issues in terms of the narrow
:11:58. > :12:02.definition of the kind of women who deserve respect, this is a cultural
:12:03. > :12:08.thing, it is not a religious thing but we, we will use this word that
:12:09. > :12:13.means honour and we will see a woman who is wearing the hijab, who cooks
:12:14. > :12:16.and clean, who is the Queen of the home, she deserves respect. Now what
:12:17. > :12:20.happens then, when you have people who are raised in those
:12:21. > :12:23.environments, and they get jobs as taxi drivers and working in
:12:24. > :12:27.takeaways and they join the night-time economy. That is an
:12:28. > :12:31.ongoing theme in all these case, you have these men who have grown up in
:12:32. > :12:36.this climate, who all of a sudden are face to face with women who
:12:37. > :12:41.don't fit that model. So women who might like a drink or women who wear
:12:42. > :12:45.short skirts, or who are quite loud. And that doesn't fit with their
:12:46. > :12:49.definition of a person, that deserves respect. That is a problem.
:12:50. > :12:54.You have to address that. And following on from that. I think
:12:55. > :12:59.there is an issue within not just the Pakistani but the south Asian
:13:00. > :13:03.community in terms of women having that level of respectment so for
:13:04. > :13:09.example, you know, in a family, let us say there is a son and daughter,
:13:10. > :13:12.the son will allowed to go outside, stay out to about 10.00, possibly
:13:13. > :13:15.have a girlfriend, whereas the girls have to stay at home. If you are
:13:16. > :13:19.bringing children up in that mind set, they only know they have to
:13:20. > :13:23.respect that individual in the house, mother, daughter. That could
:13:24. > :13:28.be a sweeping generalisation as well. I do think, I do think that
:13:29. > :13:31.this is something that the Pakistani community, the south Asian community
:13:32. > :13:36.need to look into. As you said the word honour is a burden on girls
:13:37. > :13:40.mainly. And so they have to live with that, anything they do is
:13:41. > :13:45.reflective on the whole family and the community. I don't think it is
:13:46. > :13:48.fair. There is an issue. But let us not conflate one issue with another.
:13:49. > :13:53.There are these men and we are talking about a criminal mind-set of
:13:54. > :13:58.individuals, who like people like Jimmy Savile live two lifestyle,
:13:59. > :14:01.they live a public lifestyle where they want to show themselves as good
:14:02. > :14:05.community member, the same time when people say they only see certain
:14:06. > :14:09.women as fair game, let us be honest, if you look at the report,
:14:10. > :14:14.there were findings on the Jay report, they found 150 young girls
:14:15. > :14:18.out of the 1400 were Pakistani girls,ment the problem is these
:14:19. > :14:24.people aren't differentiating because they are sick men, but
:14:25. > :14:27.Pakistani girls, are finding it very difficult to speak out, these are
:14:28. > :14:33.very sick men. Difficult to speak out. I am glad you raised that, is
:14:34. > :14:38.there an issue round the ability to converse, or to come forward and say
:14:39. > :14:42.I have been attacked or abused, or I have been raped within the Muslim
:14:43. > :14:52.commune tyre, forget the white girl issue. Can talk about the south
:14:53. > :14:55.Asian community diaspora. I am also from a community. From the first
:14:56. > :14:58.generational perspective it has been something we don't necessarily talk
:14:59. > :15:03.about because there is the concept of honour, but it is changing and
:15:04. > :15:08.this group... Is it? There are people, there are practitioners on
:15:09. > :15:13.ground who are actually working with women, and I can say it is not an
:15:14. > :15:16.exclusive Muslim issue, but there is sometimes generally from the first
:15:17. > :15:20.generation that it was slightly difficult. There is a sense of
:15:21. > :15:23.keeping the honour of the community or protecting women, not because we
:15:24. > :15:28.are protecting the men, but sometimes that is how it folds out.
:15:29. > :15:32.Covering up crime or burying crime. In the Rotherham case we know the
:15:33. > :15:37.community did go forward and speak to police.
:15:38. > :15:42.The police did not speak to the victims either but I agree the
:15:43. > :15:46.police need help from the community and we need to be active and address
:15:47. > :15:51.these issues ourselves. Completely and I think it is changing but it is
:15:52. > :15:56.achingly slow. What I mean by that, and again, I'm sure you guys can
:15:57. > :16:00.relate, growing up, I grew up in Huddersfield in Yorkshire, I went to
:16:01. > :16:06.the mosque regularly, I know that my experiences did not match up with
:16:07. > :16:10.the conversations at the mosque. If you are a young man and you want to
:16:11. > :16:13.talk about contraception or you want to talk about certain feelings, or
:16:14. > :16:16.you just want to talk about sex, you're not going to get that
:16:17. > :16:21.guidance from the mosque. That is the last place. Because it is a
:16:22. > :16:25.religious place. Not just in terms of it being a religious place but in
:16:26. > :16:29.terms of, look at the state of our mosques, the majority of them still
:16:30. > :16:34.today are run by Immonens who don't even speak the local language. Rabin
:16:35. > :16:37.but they also don't go out and groom young girls? But what I'm saying and
:16:38. > :16:40.this is really important, if you were raised in an environment where
:16:41. > :16:45.you can't talk about things like sex, that is going to lead to
:16:46. > :16:50.problems. Isn't that a cultural dichotomy? It's going back to the
:16:51. > :16:53.point it is not Islamic. You've all agreed that if there's a problem,
:16:54. > :17:00.it's cultural but the question is, let's pin down what the cultural
:17:01. > :17:04.problem is. What I mean is I'm trying... We have ruled out religion
:17:05. > :17:08.at least, for at least some of the arguments. From my own experiences,
:17:09. > :17:11.one issue that I personally have not only come across on a personal level
:17:12. > :17:15.but also have seen as I've been working nationally is the fact that
:17:16. > :17:21.sometimes the police worries about community tensions and so, they are
:17:22. > :17:26.not willing to always go in and talk to the community and talk to the
:17:27. > :17:29.community leaders who I call self appointed because most of them are
:17:30. > :17:33.self appointed leaders, and actually discuss things that are happening.
:17:34. > :17:36.That is the argument effectively that political correctness gets in
:17:37. > :17:40.the way of policing or enforcing or sorting out some of the problems.
:17:41. > :17:44.I'm going to have to come in here, I think that is the biggest lie that
:17:45. > :17:46.is ever told, the biggest excuse, you ask any Pakistani mail going
:17:47. > :17:53.into an airport whether they don't stop and search them because of
:17:54. > :17:55.racism. You are more likely to be and that is preconditioned thinking
:17:56. > :17:59.that this individual may be a criminal. So there's no racism in
:18:00. > :18:02.that Pakistani drug dealers. Why is there racism in this? I tell you
:18:03. > :18:06.why, we have been fighting this case for three years with South Yorkshire
:18:07. > :18:08.Police and only now have they admitted there was no political
:18:09. > :18:11.correctness in the Rotherham issue and it was their own internal
:18:12. > :18:15.failings because what happened is these offices did not believe the
:18:16. > :18:20.young girls because they were from working-class backgrounds. That
:18:21. > :18:23.problem is widely recognised. But it's racism, why are you stopping
:18:24. > :18:28.and searching Pakistani males like never before in airports? You are
:18:29. > :18:31.not racist then. Can I ask whether because a lot of people think part
:18:32. > :18:35.of the solution to all of this will be for a much more open
:18:36. > :18:38.conversation, more brutally honest, more openness within the community
:18:39. > :18:42.and between communities but that is going to mean sometimes things like
:18:43. > :18:50.this. We are going to gather Muslims around and ask if there is a Muslim
:18:51. > :18:55.issue. I think that is very facile to say that. Does that ever scare
:18:56. > :18:59.you? I think the idea of gathering Muslims around, you know, I think we
:19:00. > :19:04.are starting to see for example this demand that I shadowed, he was
:19:05. > :19:07.organising conferences to talk about sex which is Brett Kearney heard of
:19:08. > :19:11.in the Muslim community and I think that's a great thing to do. But the
:19:12. > :19:17.Muslim community has to lead on that and it has only just started to
:19:18. > :19:20.happen. I think it is important but where we have various voices from
:19:21. > :19:26.various communities but we are not all representatives. No one is. We
:19:27. > :19:30.are a huge Dyas brand communities and we can only speak of
:19:31. > :19:39.individuals. -- a huge diaspora and communities. I would also like to
:19:40. > :19:42.make a parallel... Very briefly. I know we ruled out faith earlier and
:19:43. > :19:47.we talk about the Islamic context and is lamb as a sense of justice.
:19:48. > :19:49.This isn't even about an Islamic context, it is about young girls
:19:50. > :19:55.getting justice for a crime committed against them, just as if
:19:56. > :20:00.the church when it comes to bishops and grooming young boys, I mean,
:20:01. > :20:04.that is not necessarily... That is the same paradigms and the same
:20:05. > :20:07.sense... We need to leave it there. We started the conversation and I
:20:08. > :20:08.really appreciate you all coming in and having it. Thank you for joining
:20:09. > :20:09.us. There has been quite
:20:10. > :20:11.a lot of complaining Not perhaps as much
:20:12. > :20:14.as United Airlines, obviously, but with IT problems and a lack
:20:15. > :20:17.of free short-haul sandwiches, many say the once great flag carrier
:20:18. > :20:20.has gone off the rails, Sometimes when consumers grumble,
:20:21. > :20:25.it's a sign of a useless company. Sometimes though, it's a sign
:20:26. > :20:28.of a company that is determined not to lose money by giving away things
:20:29. > :20:30.that consumers don't Our business editor, Helen Thomas,
:20:31. > :20:35.has been looking at which it is, on the case of the airline formerly
:20:36. > :20:40.known as the world's favourite. MUSIC: "Flower Duet
:20:41. > :20:52.(Lakme)" - Delibes. Worst ever business
:20:53. > :20:58.class experience. I honestly didn't think this
:20:59. > :21:01.actually happened, especially Everyone's a critic nowadays
:21:02. > :21:09.and that's a problem if you were British Airways has been
:21:10. > :21:19.having a turbulent time. It started last year
:21:20. > :21:21.with sandwich-gate, the decision to drop free food and drink
:21:22. > :21:27.on short flights. Then came May's massive IT
:21:28. > :21:30.failure and with it, the accusation that snacks
:21:31. > :21:33.and beverages weren't the only place Now, cabin crew
:21:34. > :21:45.strikes over low pay. My concern is they are cruising
:21:46. > :21:48.towards a crisis right now by ignoring the customer
:21:49. > :21:50.and going too far By focusing solely on cost and not
:21:51. > :21:56.on the benefits of investment in product and reliability
:21:57. > :22:00.and labour relations provide, BA risks alienating its passengers,
:22:01. > :22:06.including, especially, the higher value customers who fly
:22:07. > :22:10.for business and pay higher fares. BA has lost altitude
:22:11. > :22:13.in the airline rankings. This year's top ten
:22:14. > :22:15.is dominated by Asian It's not exactly news that air
:22:16. > :22:35.travel's changed since the days when British Airways and British
:22:36. > :22:37.engineering stood for Still, there's a sense
:22:38. > :22:47.that the overall BA experience has fallen some way since it sold
:22:48. > :22:49.itself on a distinctly BA's management have charted
:22:50. > :23:01.a particular course for the airline. It faces fierce competition from
:23:02. > :23:08.the likes of Ryanair and easyJet. The boss, Alex Cruise,
:23:09. > :23:13.has talked about economy travel as a commodity product,
:23:14. > :23:16.or one where price is really And actually, it is a strategy that
:23:17. > :23:20.has served the business Airlines are a notoriously tough
:23:21. > :23:26.place to make money. But British Airways' profits have
:23:27. > :23:30.soared to record levels. They jumped again in
:23:31. > :23:35.the first half of this year. And that has helped its owner,
:23:36. > :23:38.International Consolidated Over the last five years,
:23:39. > :23:50.a focus on the bottom line means it has soared above European rivals
:23:51. > :23:55.Lufthansa and Air France-KLM. This analyst thinks the bosses at BA
:23:56. > :23:59.and parent IAG are getting Investors as a whole,
:24:00. > :24:05.I think they see a management team that is seeking to break out
:24:06. > :24:09.of the airline industry's historic To deliver better returns over
:24:10. > :24:19.the long term and that ultimately benefits all stakeholders,
:24:20. > :24:21.staff and customers alike. For those bristling at paying
:24:22. > :24:23.for their sandwich, BA will be squeezing more seats
:24:24. > :24:30.into its economy cabin. It wants to charge for more extras
:24:31. > :24:33.like checked bags or Wi-Fi. And there's changes coming
:24:34. > :24:38.at the front of the plane, too. BA's business class is pretty tired
:24:39. > :24:41.compared to competitors', It is all part of a strategy,
:24:42. > :24:48.trying to offer top-notch luxury at the front of the plane
:24:49. > :24:50.and a cut-price, no-frills Today's hypercompetitive travel
:24:51. > :25:05.market means tough choices. Still, some think BA is headed in
:25:06. > :25:08.the wrong direction. BA right now presents
:25:09. > :25:13.its customers with a very schizophrenic,
:25:14. > :25:16.disjointed experience. In the US, L'Oreal cosmetics has
:25:17. > :25:18.advertised for years, BA needs to take pride in the fact
:25:19. > :25:23.it is a premium brand. It is OK for BA to charge a bit
:25:24. > :25:26.more, provided that the value BA told Newsnight that being more
:25:27. > :25:33.efficient enables the company to offer more low fares
:25:34. > :25:35.and to invest in new aircraft, better facilities
:25:36. > :25:38.and new technology. The question is whether PR troubles
:25:39. > :25:41.at some point start to drag All businesses have to balance
:25:42. > :25:46.keeping their customers happy with making enough
:25:47. > :25:55.profit to survive. I think with British Airways,
:25:56. > :25:57.there's a problem that expectations are anchored
:25:58. > :25:59.in history and are not necessarily consistent with either a service
:26:00. > :26:02.level that can be delivered profitably in this day and age,
:26:03. > :26:05.or which even actually I think sometimes, people remember
:26:06. > :26:08.things as being better That is one thing the airline
:26:09. > :26:39.is unlikely to find itself short on. Donald Trump made more comments
:26:40. > :26:44.on North Korea this evening - interesting ones, because he gave
:26:45. > :26:48.the impression that he was reiterating his "fire and fury"
:26:49. > :26:55.comments of the other day, but actually he could be thought
:26:56. > :26:57.of as toning it down significantly. I'm joined by the BBC's Washington
:26:58. > :27:03.correspondent Rajini Vaidyanathan. First, I think we have a clip of
:27:04. > :27:07.Donald Trump. It's about time that somebody stuck
:27:08. > :27:10.up for the people of this country and for the people
:27:11. > :27:12.of other countries. So if anything, maybe that statement
:27:13. > :27:16.wasn't tough enough, and we're backed by 100%
:27:17. > :27:29.by our military, we're OK, let's talk to reduce body in a
:27:30. > :27:32.them. He said quite a lot in answers to questions there. Do you feel he
:27:33. > :27:37.was wrapping it up or toning it down? I think it was a bit of both.
:27:38. > :27:41.This is quite similar to the pattern we have seen before in many ways
:27:42. > :27:46.with President Trump. He makes a perhaps off-the-cuff remark and then
:27:47. > :27:50.his aides Ray lit back and then he comes back guns blazing, reaffirming
:27:51. > :27:53.it even more strongly. In that rhetoric, President Trump said he
:27:54. > :27:57.wished he had gone tougher and been stronger than saying he was going to
:27:58. > :28:01.unleash fire and fury but when you peel the rhetoric away and look at
:28:02. > :28:07.exactly what it means, some journalists ask what is tougher than
:28:08. > :28:11.fire and theory? He said, we'll see. President Trump said he was open to
:28:12. > :28:15.negotiations but then said negotiations never work and have not
:28:16. > :28:18.the decades when it comes to North Korea. He also refused to be drawn
:28:19. > :28:23.on whether or not he is planning a pre-emptive strike but crucially, he
:28:24. > :28:27.also called on China to do more. I was going to say because in some
:28:28. > :28:29.ways, interpreting what you think all of this could be the Chinese
:28:30. > :28:35.ears and you have to think about what he is saying in relation to the
:28:36. > :28:40.Chinese. Absolutely right, in many ways, this was as much a message to
:28:41. > :28:44.Beijing as it was to Pyongyang. In many ways, they are the power
:28:45. > :28:49.brokers in all of this. In terms of reaching a diplomatic solution to
:28:50. > :28:52.this ongoing crisis. That is also because Beijing is a key trading
:28:53. > :28:56.partner with North Korea selling many ways, in terms of putting
:28:57. > :29:00.economic pressure on Pyongyang, it is really down to China. Crucially
:29:01. > :29:05.of course, those United Nations sanctions we saw last week being
:29:06. > :29:11.voted in signed up by China and by Russia. That is a key thing, there.
:29:12. > :29:16.What this shows overall is that despite the rhetoric we are hearing
:29:17. > :29:21.from President Trump, his promise of fire and fury, he knows that right
:29:22. > :29:24.now, he can't deliver that fire and fury in a vacuum. He still needs
:29:25. > :29:28.cooperation and it is worth pointing out of course that President Trump
:29:29. > :29:32.has a bit of a love hate relationship with China. We have
:29:33. > :29:35.seen him play golf with President Xi Jinping in Florida and showered him
:29:36. > :29:39.with praise and then months later, send tweets that he is simply not
:29:40. > :29:43.doing enough. It is clearly that the relationship with trying -- with
:29:44. > :29:45.China is a tricky one for President Trump to manage but clearly crucial.
:29:46. > :29:49.Thank you for joining us. Time for Viewsnight now -
:29:50. > :29:51.our opinion strand. And tonight Jason Hickel,
:29:52. > :29:52.an anthropologist from the London School of Economics,
:29:53. > :29:55.the writer of a book called The Divide, and who thinks we should
:29:56. > :29:58.stop obsessing with economic Our addictions to economic
:29:59. > :30:06.growth is killing us. Right now, the entire global system
:30:07. > :30:09.is captive to a single idea. Politicians rise and
:30:10. > :30:14.fall on their ability They promise that growth
:30:15. > :30:18.will make our lives better. We can't have infinite
:30:19. > :30:26.growth on a finite planet. We're already shooting our planet's
:30:27. > :30:28.biocapacity by nearly 60%. Climate change, deforestation
:30:29. > :30:34.and rapid rates of extinction. This crisis is due almost
:30:35. > :30:37.entirely to overconsumption If you didn't think there was enough
:30:38. > :32:02.TV out there already, you'll have a little
:32:03. > :32:04.more choice soon. service today - at least for some
:32:05. > :32:07.consumers in the US. It's videos, and they're
:32:08. > :32:09.specially made for Facebook. It's one step on from Facebook's
:32:10. > :32:12.goal to eat the whole internet, as one tech writer put it,
:32:13. > :32:15.because this takes on TV. The videos won't be quite the same,
:32:16. > :32:18.but it is competition for traditional TV, and the Amazon,
:32:19. > :32:22.Netflix and YouTube platforms too. But here's a question -
:32:23. > :32:29.are we being deluged with Let's it face it, we are not
:32:30. > :32:44.short of great material. What's at stake here is that there
:32:45. > :32:47.are lots of competing platforms, and they each want to entice us
:32:48. > :32:56.with great content - What do you think of the Facebook
:32:57. > :33:00.offer? Well, Mark Zuckerberg said 2017 would be the year of video and
:33:01. > :33:03.there is a lot of competition in this space. But I think it is
:33:04. > :33:08.important to recognise that what Facebook is offering is really
:33:09. > :33:12.competition with YouTube an not with the likes of iPlayer and Netflix.
:33:13. > :33:16.The content they are offering is largely short form, it is
:33:17. > :33:20.interactive, it is live sport, it is factual, it is content we are
:33:21. > :33:27.supposed to engage and interact round. It is different from the
:33:28. > :33:31.content you see Netflix moving into, high end, global appeal, drama and
:33:32. > :33:34.documentary. Documentary.? Couldn't Facebook put that other stuff on as
:33:35. > :33:39.well? Maybe buying stuff from the BBC and putting that on the site and
:33:40. > :33:43.making themselves the place you go to for all sorts of television? They
:33:44. > :33:46.would need to want to invest a lot of money in doing that, and the
:33:47. > :33:50.question is whether they want do that. There is no indication from
:33:51. > :33:56.Facebook they really want to put that amount of money into either
:33:57. > :34:04.licencing or creating content. OK. Lyndsey, there is a lot of TV round
:34:05. > :34:07.and a lot of it comes from this competition between platforms. They
:34:08. > :34:12.are trying to become the place to go. Is it sustainable. There has
:34:13. > :34:17.never been a better time to be a viewer. There is fantastic choice
:34:18. > :34:20.round at the moment, so I think, and generally competition is good. The
:34:21. > :34:27.viewer is the person that benefits from that. It keeps, you know, the
:34:28. > :34:31.competition keeps... Are they making money Lyndsey? Because, there are a
:34:32. > :34:34.lot of platforms an I wonder whether they are all making money or hoping
:34:35. > :34:39.they are going to be the one that is standing at the end of the battle
:34:40. > :34:43.between them? It's a good point. There is less pressure on them to
:34:44. > :34:47.make money because they have so much finance from the city etc, but yes
:34:48. > :34:53.they are making money and there are different ways you do make money
:34:54. > :34:58.from TV. Some of it is ad funding, sop of it subscription and some
:34:59. > :35:04.comes from the BBC license. Facebook is ad funded so this seems like it a
:35:05. > :35:07.clear commercial play, Mark Zuckerberg made it clear he sees the
:35:08. > :35:12.future to be about video but if you put it in context, if you look at
:35:13. > :35:16.how much video, how much time people are spending watching video, on
:35:17. > :35:20.Facebook, we spend about four-and-a-half hours a day, on
:35:21. > :35:25.average, watching video, three-and-a-half hours is TV. On
:35:26. > :35:28.traditional TV. It is about three-quarter, 2% is Facebook.
:35:29. > :35:33.That is interesting. I thought it was higher than that. It is not
:35:34. > :35:37.higher. And already there is a lot of video on the Facebook platform,
:35:38. > :35:41.because we are scrolling down through our news feed. I doesn't
:35:42. > :35:45.account for a lot of time. Do you think Catherine, people have called
:35:46. > :35:50.it a golden age of television and there are lots, more shows than you
:35:51. > :35:56.have time to watch, do you think it is sustainable? I think that we all
:35:57. > :36:00.like watching video and there is definitely a market for different
:36:01. > :36:04.kinds of video, I think the key thing is we have different
:36:05. > :36:08.platforms, serving different needs, so what Facebook is doing is
:36:09. > :36:11.providing content we want to share, that we want to interact round,
:36:12. > :36:17.community building content. It is different. At the moment and from
:36:18. > :36:21.their offer round Watch, it is a different service, to something like
:36:22. > :36:26.BBC iPlayer and they are attracting, at the moment different ad revenue.
:36:27. > :36:31.If you are a big brand, most of the big brands are advertise, most of
:36:32. > :36:34.the advertising on Facebook is from small companies and from local
:36:35. > :36:39.companies so there is a different advertising offer as well. Are there
:36:40. > :36:45.too many platforms? Do consumer, will they have to choose between
:36:46. > :36:52.Amazon or Netflix or do they get both. Or will it end up all the
:36:53. > :36:57.programmes are on all the platforms and it doesn't matter. There is a
:36:58. > :37:02.move for exclusivity. They are looking to buy content, in
:37:03. > :37:07.perpetuity, for long time, ten years and lock it down to encourage people
:37:08. > :37:12.to subscribe. There are a small number that will subscribe to
:37:13. > :37:17.Netflix and Amazon and Now. Really people are going to choose. You
:37:18. > :37:21.haven't got time to watch the stuff? How much money have we got to spend
:37:22. > :37:28.on different subscription services. ? What tends to happen is the
:37:29. > :37:32.biggest subscribers are existing subscribers to pay TV. What happens
:37:33. > :37:37.if you love TV you really love it and you simply can't get enough of
:37:38. > :37:41.it so o your point about is it sustainable? It is. We spend
:37:42. > :37:47.three-and-a-half hours in the UK, in the US it is under four hour, in
:37:48. > :37:51.Brazil is it nearly six hours you might argue we have head room for
:37:52. > :37:55.growth on TV watching. I think that is probably good news for the likes
:37:56. > :37:56.of us who work in it. Thank you both very much.
:37:57. > :38:00.That's just about it for tonight, but we can't leave
:38:01. > :38:03.without a word or two about Wales and the Welsh language.
:38:04. > :38:06.If you saw last night's programme, we had a discussion on policies
:38:07. > :38:08.to promote Welsh language, with a defender of government
:38:09. > :38:11.efforts to get it more widely spoken, and someone who thought
:38:12. > :38:15.Now our defender of Welsh did a perfectly good job,
:38:16. > :38:18.but was someone who did not actually speak more than a bit
:38:19. > :38:21.That is representative of a very prevalent group in Wales.
:38:22. > :38:23.Most people don't speak it, and polls suggest most people
:38:24. > :38:26.do support government efforts to promote it.
:38:27. > :38:28.But understandably, we had more than few comments suggesting
:38:29. > :38:34.that we had not done justice to the language, by discussing it
:38:35. > :38:37.I'm not going to pretend that we disagree.
:38:38. > :38:40.We think it would have been better to have a Welsh speaker too.
:38:41. > :38:43.By luck, the National Eisteddfod is taking place this week so we can
:38:44. > :38:46.play out with a highlight, the band Yr Eira - translated
:38:47. > :39:51.All change into Friday. We get off to floors you start. Shallow fog but
:39:52. > :39:54.already for Northern Ireland and Scotland, we have got the wind
:39:55. > :39:59.strengthening, and the rain starting to move in. Will it ease eastwards
:40:00. > :40:03.through the day, so that means that for most of the day, it will be
:40:04. > :40:11.cloudier and windier, for Scotland with rain on and off, we may not see
:40:12. > :40:12.that much rain, east of the Grampians, we might squeeze 22