:00:00. > :00:08.At the stroke of the midnight hour, when the world sleeps, India
:00:09. > :00:24.You are free to go to your mosques, or any other place of worship
:00:25. > :00:27.Welcome to this special edition of Newsnight.
:00:28. > :00:31.70 years ago, British India was partitioned.
:00:32. > :00:33.Today was the first day of India's independence
:00:34. > :00:38.and the birth of a new country, Pakistan.
:00:39. > :00:42.It was also the beginning of the end of the British Empire.
:00:43. > :00:45.Tonight, we'll be hearing stories of those who lived
:00:46. > :00:48.through one of the most convulsive moments of the 20th century,
:00:49. > :00:51.exploring the reasons why the political legacy in India
:00:52. > :00:56.and Pakistan is still so troubled, even poisoned.
:00:57. > :01:00.We'll be discussing whether we as a country have come
:01:01. > :01:04.to terms with Empire and how it ended,
:01:05. > :01:06.and asking young British Asians why the split 70 years ago
:01:07. > :01:16.This is Partition, 70 years on - a Newsnight Special.
:01:17. > :01:36.With us is an audience including people who lived
:01:37. > :01:40.through the partition of British India 70 years ago.
:01:41. > :01:42.When the British left hastily and chaotically,
:01:43. > :01:49.and with the drawing of the new borders, millions
:01:50. > :01:52.of lives were changed overnight, and people who had lived together
:01:53. > :01:54.side by side turned against each other.
:01:55. > :01:56.We'll be hearing some shocking stories in a moment.
:01:57. > :02:07.First, a reminder of how events unfolded.
:02:08. > :02:12.Victory in Europe had left the country bombed,
:02:13. > :02:24.With the task of rebuilding an exhaustive nation
:02:25. > :02:26.With the task of rebuilding an exhausted nation
:02:27. > :02:28.and repaying billions of dollars to the United States,
:02:29. > :02:31.running an empire was the last thing the new Labour government needed.
:02:32. > :02:34.In India too, which had supplied 2.5 million soldiers and had
:02:35. > :02:37.geared its economy to the war, there was a new urgency.
:02:38. > :02:39.The decades of nonviolent resistance to British rule,
:02:40. > :02:46.led by the now octogenarian Mahatma Gandhi, had failed.
:02:47. > :02:48.Now he was overshadowed by two men who vied for control
:02:49. > :02:55.Jawaharlal Nehru, the leader of the Congress Party,
:02:56. > :02:57.and Muhammad Ali Jinnah of the Muslim League
:02:58. > :03:00.had different visions of what would come next.
:03:01. > :03:03.Nehru wanted a united India, but Jinnah felt India's
:03:04. > :03:07.100 million Muslims, a quarter of the population,
:03:08. > :03:11.would be marginalised by the Hindu majority.
:03:12. > :03:13.He demanded safeguards, even a separate homeland,
:03:14. > :03:24.Britain had been the dominant power in India for 200 years.
:03:25. > :03:27.Now the proponents of Indian independence found that they were
:03:28. > :03:30.In late 1946, the government of Clement Attlee announced
:03:31. > :03:35.Britain's withdrawal from India by June 1948.
:03:36. > :03:39.But in the face of rising sectarian tensions and violence which had
:03:40. > :03:44.erupted around northern India, in June 1947, the last viceroy,
:03:45. > :03:47.Lord Mountbatten, in agreement with Nehru and Jinnah,
:03:48. > :03:51.decided the country would be partitioned.
:03:52. > :03:55.He brought forward the date for Britain's exit.
:03:56. > :04:00.There would now be just ten weeks to prepare for partition.
:04:01. > :04:06.Jinnah celebrated independence on 14th August in Karachi.
:04:07. > :04:11.Nehru's dream of a united India had failed, but on August 15th,
:04:12. > :04:12.Independence Day, in Delhi he celebrated long-fought
:04:13. > :04:22.At the stroke of the midnight hour, when the world sleeps,
:04:23. > :04:32.India will awake to life and freedom.
:04:33. > :04:36.The provinces of Bengal and Punjab, under the partition plan,
:04:37. > :04:43.For centuries, communities had lived together in relative harmony,
:04:44. > :04:51.making a smooth geographical division near impossible.
:04:52. > :04:54.What followed was mass migration and dreadful violence.
:04:55. > :05:06.It amounted to an attempt at ethnic cleansing.
:05:07. > :05:12.Around 12 million people were on the move...
:05:13. > :05:17.Muslims to Pakistan, Sikhs and Hindus to India.
:05:18. > :05:21.Approximately a million men, women and children died
:05:22. > :05:29.The authorities on both sides were completely unprepared
:05:30. > :05:38.and appealed for calm, but it was too late.
:05:39. > :05:41.The British relinquished responsibility for the region,
:05:42. > :05:44.leaving India divided and their leaders trying
:05:45. > :05:48.to get a grip on the bloody reality of partition.
:05:49. > :05:51.That division had unforeseen consequences, which still shape
:05:52. > :06:01.Joining me now is Gurbakhsh Garcha, Raj Dswani and Iftkahr Ahmed,
:06:02. > :06:04.all of whom witnessed first hand the birth of the two
:06:05. > :06:10.First of all, Gurbakhsh, you were a Sikh boy growing up
:06:11. > :06:23.It was a small village with a population where a quarter
:06:24. > :06:30.were Muslim and the rest were Sikhs, mainly, and a family of Hindus.
:06:31. > :06:39.It was an open village with streets for us to run around in,
:06:40. > :06:48.We could go wherever we liked,
:06:49. > :06:53.and it was a wonderful life as children.
:06:54. > :06:56.We had lots of trees around the village and there wasn't
:06:57. > :06:58.And you celebrated festivals together?
:06:59. > :07:03.At the time of Eid, the Muslim community
:07:04. > :07:10.And when we had Diwali, we sent sweets to their houses.
:07:11. > :07:21.My grandmother was very close friends with a Muslim lady.
:07:22. > :07:25.Iftkahr Ahmed, you were a young Muslim living near Delhi.
:07:26. > :07:32.How did it feel to you when independence was declared?
:07:33. > :07:34.Well, around independence, Delhi was all lit up
:07:35. > :07:43.and we all got together, Hindu, Muslim, Sikh,
:07:44. > :07:46.we all got together and celebrated on the 15th, Independence Day.
:07:47. > :07:51.We didn't know what would happen tomorrow.
:07:52. > :07:54.We were just one India, Hindustan, and we celebrated together.
:07:55. > :07:56.Because it was a day of huge celebrations.
:07:57. > :08:03.Yeah, we all were together to celebrate on 15th August.
:08:04. > :08:08.Raj, you were a Hindu boy living in Sindh province and overnight,
:08:09. > :08:11.everything changed, it became part of Pakistan
:08:12. > :08:20.Tell me what happened and what that meant to you to leave?
:08:21. > :08:27.From Sindh, 1.2 million people migrated.
:08:28. > :08:39.The day we left was a dark day, we would say.
:08:40. > :08:53.But when you were there as a boy, you had a very close friendship
:08:54. > :08:56.with a young Muslim girl called Jasmine.
:08:57. > :09:07.As my friend said, on Eid and Diwali, we used
:09:08. > :09:22.to exchange sweets and on other festivals, we used to be together.
:09:23. > :09:25.Now, for the brothers in Punjab and brothers of Bengal who suffered,
:09:26. > :09:28.But your personal calamity was because you left your
:09:29. > :09:39.That was also a personal thing, but I am talking of Sindh itself,
:09:40. > :09:45.We didn't get a single inch of the soil.
:09:46. > :09:52.Bengal got half of Bengal, but we were landless.
:09:53. > :09:58.We had to leave our friends, our relatives, our materials.
:09:59. > :10:03.Whatever we had, we just came in our clothes.
:10:04. > :10:09.Iftkahr, it was dangerous for you to be a Muslim in Delhi
:10:10. > :10:15.You got there and then what did you see at Lahore station?
:10:16. > :10:20.I came through and the train was there and I asked
:10:21. > :10:24.one of the soldiers, "Take me with you".
:10:25. > :10:29.He said, "OK, if you're on your own, come over".
:10:30. > :10:34.So I jumped on the train and they hid me.
:10:35. > :10:38.And because for three or four days I hadn't eaten anything,
:10:39. > :10:44.We reached Lahore and the soldier said
:10:45. > :10:46."There you are, son, you're in Pakistan,
:10:47. > :10:53.Then he got off the train and left me on the platform.
:10:54. > :10:59.Because I hadn't slept for so long, I just put
:11:00. > :11:06.And I woke up about four o'clock in the morning.
:11:07. > :11:11.I heard people talking, and realised that all the platforms
:11:12. > :11:29.There were cut off women's heads, God knows, little babies.
:11:30. > :11:35.And Gurbakhsh, you also saw the horror of corpses on trains,
:11:36. > :11:38.mutilated bodies in the village in Punjab, but also,
:11:39. > :11:41.and this is a particular story, you also saw a moment
:11:42. > :11:50.This was something that happened side by side.
:11:51. > :11:55.There was cruelty on one side and horrible scenes,
:11:56. > :12:05.but on the other side there was compassion, and even love.
:12:06. > :12:13.We saw the train passing by a village, very close.
:12:14. > :12:18.And a woman with two small children fell out,
:12:19. > :12:27.I think she was dreading another massacre.
:12:28. > :12:31.And she was met by people in the village and she was taken
:12:32. > :12:43.to a shed just outside the village and she was given a place to sit.
:12:44. > :12:45.So your family protected her from the possibility
:12:46. > :12:49.Yes, and they brought food and milk for the children,
:12:50. > :13:02.They were really sad to see this happen to just an ordinary woman
:13:03. > :13:11.So the Sikhs protected Muslims in that area.
:13:12. > :13:15.And she was taken to a safe camp afterwards with her children.
:13:16. > :13:20.Many never returned, but Raj, you did return eventually.
:13:21. > :13:24.You went back to Sindh after decades.
:13:25. > :13:43.Actually, when I boarded the aeroplane, I couldn't sleep.
:13:44. > :13:48.I couldn't think of anything but my childhood, which street
:13:49. > :13:51.was where and what were the roads, who were my friends.
:13:52. > :13:54.Now I am returning back to my land, whether those same things
:13:55. > :14:03.So when I landed there, I touched the soil, kissed it.
:14:04. > :14:13.Put down my forehead and went inside.
:14:14. > :14:15.My friends were there who were recent friends.
:14:16. > :14:22.So they took me and I was very happy.
:14:23. > :14:26.I went to my place also, where I used to live.
:14:27. > :14:33.But I couldn't go inside, because I didn't dare to go inside.
:14:34. > :14:39.You thought you would have collapsed because it would have emotionally
:14:40. > :14:46.Iftkahr, as the years have gone past, do you ever
:14:47. > :14:50.close your eyes and visualise where it was as a child?
:14:51. > :14:56.For that reason, I have never told my children my story,
:14:57. > :15:00.because my older son has often said, "Why you never told us?"
:15:01. > :15:11.Because when I look back, the streets were
:15:12. > :15:30.You don't want to remember this sort of thing.
:15:31. > :15:36.Gentlemen, thank you very much indeed.
:15:37. > :15:39.Unlike Raj, millions never saw their homeland again.
:15:40. > :15:41.Even today, there are no direct air links between India
:15:42. > :15:47.That's just one example of the lasting divide and inability
:15:48. > :15:50.of the two nations to forge a modern relationship.
:15:51. > :16:02.And the most obvious place to see this is at the border.
:16:03. > :16:06.You are watching conflict transformed into ritual.
:16:07. > :16:09.Every day, this exquisitely choreographed ballet
:16:10. > :16:17.is played out at the border between India and Pakistan.
:16:18. > :16:19.But the ongoing enmity between the two countries has
:16:20. > :16:30.There are strict restrictions on movement.
:16:31. > :16:35.All trucks have to be offloaded at the border.
:16:36. > :16:38.Twice as much trade goes via Dubai than across the land border
:16:39. > :16:44.It is just too much trouble to trade direct.
:16:45. > :16:47.Economists say if it was made easier, there could be as much
:16:48. > :16:57.as ten times the business between the two countries.
:16:58. > :16:59.Whilst, as Justin says, physical trade between Pakistan
:17:00. > :17:01.and India might be limited, there is a free-flowing cultural
:17:02. > :17:11.exchange between them, most notably Bollywood.
:17:12. > :17:13.Despite past attempts to ban Indian films here,
:17:14. > :17:16.they have always been hugely popular, and many, like this one,
:17:17. > :17:22.now feature Pakistani actors and Pakistani musicians.
:17:23. > :17:25.But a love of Bollywood doesn't mean a love of India.
:17:26. > :17:33.Many here believe India is trying to sabotage Pakistan.
:17:34. > :17:35.TRANSLATION: Most of the Pakistanis like Indian movies
:17:36. > :17:37.because they are good quality and have the best plots.
:17:38. > :17:40.But they think of India as their enemy.
:17:41. > :17:46.Otherwise, the attitude of Pakistanis is always against India.
:17:47. > :17:52.These films cannot change that attitude.
:17:53. > :18:00.All the best scenes, dances and songs, packaged up
:18:01. > :18:12.Bollywood has traditionally been pretty much blind to religion.
:18:13. > :18:14.Despite India's large Hindu majority, some
:18:15. > :18:20.of the most popular stars are Muslims, even Pakistanis.
:18:21. > :18:26.There were calls for a ban on Pakistani actors after a militant
:18:27. > :18:31.in Indian-administered Kashmir last year.
:18:32. > :18:33.India was founded on secular principles, with protection
:18:34. > :18:38.for religious minorities, but many fear that India's secular
:18:39. > :18:48.That's something the Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi denies.
:18:49. > :18:51.But Mr Modi is a Hindu nationalist, and under his government
:18:52. > :18:54.tensions have been growing between communities,
:18:55. > :19:00.heightened by a series of murders of Muslims by Hindus.
:19:01. > :19:04.TRANSLATION: There is some attack on Muslims
:19:05. > :19:10.The only option for us Muslims now is to pick up arms.
:19:11. > :19:24.We will fight to survive, or we will die here.
:19:25. > :19:26.If they want us to leave India, that is not possible.
:19:27. > :19:33.We were born here and it is our right.
:19:34. > :19:36.This isn't something you see every day in Pakistan.
:19:37. > :19:39.Today, over 60 Hindu couples are getting married in a mass
:19:40. > :19:45.ceremony in the southern province of Sindh.
:19:46. > :19:48.Most Hindus left Pakistan during partition, worried about how
:19:49. > :19:52.they would be treated in a Muslim dominated country.
:19:53. > :19:56.But there are still around 2 million living here.
:19:57. > :19:59.Today is a day for celebrations, lots of celebrations.
:20:00. > :20:02.But until recently, Hindu marriages like these were not legally
:20:03. > :20:10.Many in the community complain that they face discrimination.
:20:11. > :20:13.As a result, over the years following partition
:20:14. > :20:21.thousands more Hindus have left Pakistan, many heading to India.
:20:22. > :20:23.TRANSLATION: Around eight to ten people leave every week
:20:24. > :20:36.My relatives left in 1991 after there was communal violence.
:20:37. > :20:40.So 70 years on, the communal tensions that drove partition
:20:41. > :20:44.are still very much alive in both India and Pakistan.
:20:45. > :20:49.So what hope is there of that changing?
:20:50. > :20:53.How many people think there will be a solution
:20:54. > :20:55.between India and Pakistan and there will be peace?
:20:56. > :20:59.Why do you think there is such a conflict?
:21:00. > :21:05.The real power is in the hands of the army.
:21:06. > :21:08.The democracy is nothing to do with terrorism.
:21:09. > :21:12.So the army promotes the terrorism that leads to the death
:21:13. > :21:20.Pakistani pupils are taught that the country was create under
:21:21. > :21:23.the two-nation theory, that Muslims and Hindus are separate
:21:24. > :21:32.What's your understanding of why Pakistan was created?
:21:33. > :21:35.TRANSLATION: There was nothing common between Hindus
:21:36. > :21:37.and Muslims other than the fact that they shared a land.
:21:38. > :21:40.There was a lot of difference between the two, religion-wise,
:21:41. > :21:43.creed-wise, their values, their culture, so that was why
:21:44. > :21:51.a new country was needed to get their rights and to succeed.
:21:52. > :21:54.What do you think could be done to improve the relationship
:21:55. > :21:57.TRANSLATION: If our politicians stopped bashing India
:21:58. > :22:01.just to get votes, that can help improving relations.
:22:02. > :22:06.If cricket matches are allowed to continue between the countries,
:22:07. > :22:09.I am not sure about politics, but that will help improve relations.
:22:10. > :22:15.It would decrease the hatred between ordinary people on both sides.
:22:16. > :22:19.Ultimately, this is really just a story about feuding families,
:22:20. > :22:23.because so much more unites India and Pakistan
:22:24. > :22:28.than divides them, like, for example, the food.
:22:29. > :22:33.The problem is that there are some in both countries who believe
:22:34. > :22:37.it's in their political interest to continue the hostilities.
:22:38. > :22:39.After all, there's nothing like an external enemy
:22:40. > :22:45.So at the moment, it seems there is no sign
:22:46. > :22:54.I'm joined now by Professor Sunil Khilnani from King's College
:22:55. > :22:57.London's India Institute, who has a written number of books
:22:58. > :23:02.on India, including his most recent, Incarnations: India in 50 Lives,
:23:03. > :23:05.and Dr Farzana Shaikh, an academic at Chatham House and the author
:23:06. > :23:10.It is a difficult day because of course it's
:23:11. > :23:12.a celebration, in one way, but it's also a memory
:23:13. > :23:19.And I wonder, first of all, Professor Sunil Khilnani,
:23:20. > :23:24.how does a vision for the nation 70 years ago add up to the reality?
:23:25. > :23:29.Well, I mean, I think what's very interesting about this subcontinent
:23:30. > :23:32.is you really have had two very different views of the
:23:33. > :23:38.You had the idea of Pakistan, which has been just talked
:23:39. > :23:41.about in the film we just saw, which was you have to
:23:42. > :23:43.have a separate nation for a different religion.
:23:44. > :23:45.In the sense, that's the European idea of a nation.
:23:46. > :23:49.Which is that you have to define a nation by a single religion
:23:50. > :23:55.But then you had the Indian idea of a nation, which was the idea that
:23:56. > :23:59.I think Nehru and Tagore and Gandhi tried to develop which was could you
:24:00. > :24:09.I think he was in the sense that he wanted to build
:24:10. > :24:11.protections for minorities, and that's a very secular
:24:12. > :24:18.But I think he also began to use religion in order to advance
:24:19. > :24:24.Doctor Farzana Shaikh, do you think, of course,
:24:25. > :24:33.That kind of legacy of the empire which was divide and rule,
:24:34. > :24:36.was it ever going to be other than what it has appeared to be,
:24:37. > :24:43.Well, there was nothing inevitable either about partition or indeed
:24:44. > :24:51.But decisions were made at key moments.
:24:52. > :24:55.The consequences of which we are living with today.
:24:56. > :25:04.The decision to divide up India on lines of religion.
:25:05. > :25:12.There were many moments, particularly in the 1940s
:25:13. > :25:15.when leaders on both sides were trying to come to some
:25:16. > :25:21.So, had independence come earlier, say even in the late 30s,
:25:22. > :25:23.this idea of a religious divide would not have been so embedded
:25:24. > :25:28.because it came to be embedded earlier than partition had?
:25:29. > :25:33.One can't say for certain but there was certainly moments
:25:34. > :25:36.when the course of history might have been very different.
:25:37. > :25:43.We are in a situation where we've got the Indian president saying
:25:44. > :25:47.today in his speech there is no to be no attacks on Muslims.
:25:48. > :25:52.There is almost as many Muslims in India as there aren't Pakistan.
:25:53. > :25:55.There seems to be a move to more reconciliation just at the time
:25:56. > :25:59.when you think Hindu nationalism is on the rise.
:26:00. > :26:02.I think there have been cycles of reconciliation and hostility.
:26:03. > :26:05.I think you're absolutely right and I think it is an important point
:26:06. > :26:08.to remember that India is about the second or third
:26:09. > :26:10.largest Muslim country in the world, and that's a very,
:26:11. > :26:15.I think what Prime Minister Modi has said today is a kind of more
:26:16. > :26:18.conciliatory Independence Day speech but, at the same time,
:26:19. > :26:21.he's also spoken from the other side of his mouth or rather not spoken
:26:22. > :26:25.at all, it is his silences in many cases when there's been violent
:26:26. > :26:29.against Muslims and minorities in India which has been telling.
:26:30. > :26:33.But if you look at what is best indeed, for the future both
:26:34. > :26:36.of the nations on a purely economic basis, you saw Justin Rowlett saying
:26:37. > :26:38.there that, actually, more trade goes via Dubai than goes
:26:39. > :26:42.And that's a huge opportunity for both countries, isn't it?
:26:43. > :26:50.But, you know, here history and present-day
:26:51. > :26:58.We have the history, of course, of communal violence.
:26:59. > :27:01.Which marred and scarred millions of families, Hindus
:27:02. > :27:11.We have the unfinished business of Kashmir which, again,
:27:12. > :27:15.remains a burden on the Pakistani side and, of course,
:27:16. > :27:18.the role of the military, whose political fortunes in Pakistan
:27:19. > :27:22.have been built on keeping this conflict alive.
:27:23. > :27:25.We are now in a situation where the last generation who lived
:27:26. > :27:30.together is moving forward and we won't have them in ten years'
:27:31. > :27:33.time but they are also the generation that saw
:27:34. > :27:39.So, does that lead you to believe that there will be...
:27:40. > :27:42.There's never been a process of reconciliation but with
:27:43. > :27:45.the passing of that generation, is it going to make reconciliation
:27:46. > :27:52.Narendra Modi, the Prime Minister of India, is the first
:27:53. > :27:54.Indian Prime Minister who was born after partition.
:27:55. > :27:58.So, already the political class are now moving beyond and don't
:27:59. > :28:03.In a way, I think that can also be much more dangerous.
:28:04. > :28:06.I think the previous Prime Ministers, Manmohan Singh,
:28:07. > :28:11.Atal Bihari Vajpayee, it was really part of their integral
:28:12. > :28:14.being to try and find a reconciliation with Pakistan.
:28:15. > :28:17.I think today politicians in India see religion
:28:18. > :28:21.as something they can play with, really, much more in a way
:28:22. > :28:23.because they haven't had that burning experience of having
:28:24. > :28:28.It is interesting because in this particular anniversary,
:28:29. > :28:31.more than I think ten years ago, we are hearing these voices
:28:32. > :28:36.We are hearing shocking stories now which should, in a sense,
:28:37. > :28:39.give people pause to think we never want to have that kind
:28:40. > :28:46.And I think those stories have a place.
:28:47. > :28:51.But I think we also need to bear in mind the risk of perhaps losing
:28:52. > :28:56.sight of why things turned out the way they did.
:28:57. > :29:02.In other words, why did it happen rather than just what happened.
:29:03. > :29:09.And I think finding the balance is going to be quite a challenge.
:29:10. > :29:12.I think what's happened is that partition is this founding moment
:29:13. > :29:16.of the kind of myths of the two nations today.
:29:17. > :29:22.And so much of what happens in the retelling of the stories
:29:23. > :29:26.of that confirms those stories, that myth, really.
:29:27. > :29:30.So I think until each of these nations starts to think
:29:31. > :29:33.of itself differently, and imagines its possibilities
:29:34. > :29:36.differently, I think you really are not going to be able to see
:29:37. > :29:43.And there's a way in which, unfortunately, each of these
:29:44. > :29:52.national governments today feeds off each other.
:29:53. > :29:55.And, for me, as an Indian, one of the troubling things is that
:29:56. > :29:58.India is now becoming more like Pakistan in the way that it
:29:59. > :30:00.thinks about the relationship between religion and power
:30:01. > :30:03.And that's a very troubling development.
:30:04. > :30:10.At the moment of independence, the two men who had led
:30:11. > :30:12.the negotiations with the British, Jawaharlal Nehru and
:30:13. > :30:15.Mohammad Ali Jinnah, addressed their people
:30:16. > :30:17.and the world in words of great idealism,
:30:18. > :30:26.Long years ago, we made a tryst with destiny,
:30:27. > :30:32.and now the time comes when we shall redeem our pledge,
:30:33. > :30:41.not wholly or in full measure, but very substantially.
:30:42. > :30:44.At the stroke of the midnight hour, when the world sleeps, India
:30:45. > :30:56.A moment comes which comes but rarely in history when we step
:30:57. > :31:00.out from the old to the new, when an age ends, and when
:31:01. > :31:11.the soul of a nation long suppressed finds utterance.
:31:12. > :31:17.At the dawn of history, India started on her unending quest
:31:18. > :31:20.and trackless centuries have filled with her striving and the grandeur
:31:21. > :31:26.Through good and ill fortune alike, she has never lost sight of that
:31:27. > :31:34.quest or forgotten the ideals which gave her strength.
:31:35. > :31:36.We end today a period of ill fortune, and India
:31:37. > :31:44.The achievement we celebrate today is but a step,
:31:45. > :31:46.an opening of opportunity to the greater triumphs
:31:47. > :31:57.Now, if we want to make this great state of Pakistan
:31:58. > :32:00.happy and prosperous, we should concentrate
:32:01. > :32:06.solely and wholly on the well-being of the people.
:32:07. > :32:15.If you will work in cooperation, forgetting the past,
:32:16. > :32:20.burying the hatchet, you are bound to succeed.
:32:21. > :32:25.If you change your past and work together in a spirit
:32:26. > :32:29.that every one of you, no matter what community he belongs
:32:30. > :32:41.to, no matter what relation he had with you in the past,
:32:42. > :32:44.no matter what his colour, caste or creed, he is first,
:32:45. > :32:46.second and last a citizen of this state.
:32:47. > :32:54.Equal rights, privileges, and obligations.
:32:55. > :32:57.There is no end to the progress that you will make.
:32:58. > :33:05.You are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques.
:33:06. > :33:09.Or any other place of worship in this state of Pakistan.
:33:10. > :33:13.You may belong to any religion or caste or creed.
:33:14. > :33:19.That has nothing to do with the business of the state.
:33:20. > :33:24.We are starting with this fundamental principle
:33:25. > :33:36.that we are all citizens, all equal citizens in the one state.
:33:37. > :33:38.Those speeches signalled the emergence of two new nations
:33:39. > :33:42.and the beginning of the end of British Empire.
:33:43. > :33:44.At its height, it controlled 23% of the world's population,
:33:45. > :33:52.But in the decades since Empire came crashing down, have we ever properly
:33:53. > :33:57.examined its effect and legacy for us all?
:33:58. > :34:00.With me now to discuss this are the historians, Yasmin Khan,
:34:01. > :34:04.Joya Chatterji and Alex von Tunzelmann.
:34:05. > :34:07.But before I speak to them, I'd first like to call
:34:08. > :34:11.upon Dennis Wilde, who was an officer in
:34:12. > :34:13.the British Indian Army in Lahore on the day of partition.
:34:14. > :34:19.What, Dennis Wilde, did the end of the British Empire look like to you?
:34:20. > :34:22.Well, I don't think, as a young army officer,
:34:23. > :34:32.I don't think we were really old enough to think strongly
:34:33. > :34:44.But, having said that, I think we all realised that it
:34:45. > :34:53.It took place in dreadful circumstances, where Sikhs
:34:54. > :34:58.and Hindus murdered Muslims and vice versa.
:34:59. > :35:05.It made an impact on me because I happened to be in Lahore
:35:06. > :35:09.at the time and I couldn't get away back to Burma,
:35:10. > :35:17.And one heard terrible stories of the chaos
:35:18. > :35:20.and the slaughter that had gone on, which was being cleared up
:35:21. > :35:22.while we were sitting, waiting to get a train back
:35:23. > :35:36.You didn't have much of a good word to say about Mountbatten.
:35:37. > :35:49.my opinion, Mountbatten was too precipitate.
:35:50. > :36:02.I think he was a man who had made a huge name for himself.
:36:03. > :36:04.He was the Southeast Asian command supremo,
:36:05. > :36:10.He was approached by Attlee to become the Viceroy of India
:36:11. > :36:12.and speed up the whole process, which she did.
:36:13. > :36:15.I think it all happened too horribly.
:36:16. > :36:22.We're just coming now to look at a talk about Empire.
:36:23. > :36:25.Do you think we've ever really come to terms, Joya,
:36:26. > :36:28.I'm not sure who we are, in your question.
:36:29. > :36:36.Interestingly, I think all of us in different ways, actually.
:36:37. > :36:40.If we're talking about the subjects of British Empire, curiously,
:36:41. > :36:42.I would say to a greater or lesser extent, we have.
:36:43. > :36:52.I think this generation growing up probably doesn't
:36:53. > :36:56.about the issues that bothered us so greatly about colonial
:36:57. > :37:04.When it comes to looking at British people, I think perhaps the answer
:37:05. > :37:11.I think even so, again, here we have to be careful
:37:12. > :37:12.about disaggregating between different sections
:37:13. > :37:15.of British opinion, I would be inclined to say that,
:37:16. > :37:18.no, there hasn't been that much moving on.
:37:19. > :37:21.There's a great deal of nostalgia for an imagined Empire
:37:22. > :37:25.about which people are hugely and strangely ill informed.
:37:26. > :37:28.They are not taught about what it was or what it actually
:37:29. > :37:34.Unwillingness to understand that Empire was not
:37:35. > :37:47.So, actually, one of the ways in which one can think
:37:48. > :37:53.about the meaning of Empire today is to bring up that awful word
:37:54. > :37:55.which you probably don't want me to bring up,
:37:56. > :38:01.When I woke up this morning, or when I woke up on the morning
:38:02. > :38:04.of Brexit, I thought, this is probably what 15th
:38:05. > :38:23.Is there any defence, do you think, of Empire that can be
:38:24. > :38:26.mounted when you hear people saying it was all about infrastructure and,
:38:27. > :38:30.in fact, the law in India was well made law, and it was the biggest
:38:31. > :38:32.democracy in the world, and still is one of the biggest
:38:33. > :38:35.democracies in the world, can you mount that kind of defence?
:38:36. > :38:37.Not very convincingly, in all honesty.
:38:38. > :38:38.It wasn't the biggest democracy in the world
:38:39. > :38:46.Yes, but that's got very little to do with the British.
:38:47. > :38:53.In terms of defending the British Empire, I think...
:38:54. > :38:56.Current research really points much less to it being a sort of coherent
:38:57. > :38:59.project and much more to it being very chaotic throughout,
:39:00. > :39:02.Of course, it was begun as a private company,
:39:03. > :39:13.We are in a situation now, and you absolutely make
:39:14. > :39:15.the distinction about who remembers Empire and in what way.
:39:16. > :39:18.Just before I come onto Yasmin, I want to talk about this because,
:39:19. > :39:22.actually, it's not just, as it were, the idea the British
:39:23. > :39:26.It's also the Belgians and the Congo, it's also
:39:27. > :39:31.You know, Empire's something the British just don't
:39:32. > :39:49.I mean, it's lots of different things and I think the confusion
:39:50. > :39:52.sets in when people think it is a moral slur on individuals
:39:53. > :39:54.because there were plenty of people's parents and grandparents
:39:55. > :39:55.who were working as irrigation officers
:39:56. > :39:59.And I think they feel sensitive about that.
:40:00. > :40:01.The thing is, ultimately and fundamentally, it is structured
:40:02. > :40:05.That is the basic premise of Empire, is that one group of people has
:40:06. > :40:08.the right to rule over another and have more responsibilities,
:40:09. > :40:13.And, so, I think when you look at it from a modern perspective
:40:14. > :40:15.of supporting democracy and racial equality, it's just really
:40:16. > :40:29.Britain's littered in strange municipal parks with statues to men
:40:30. > :40:34.of Empire who nobody wants to remember now.
:40:35. > :40:39.I wonder, just bringing Andrews in here, because you've studied
:40:40. > :40:42.all this, the sociology of all this, tell me, when we're looking
:40:43. > :40:44.at Empire, we find it very difficult in this country.
:40:45. > :40:47.I would say white people find it very difficult to imagine
:40:48. > :40:49.what Empire actually has done for them now.
:40:50. > :40:54.What it should be is, it should be a stain
:40:55. > :40:58.Unfortunately, 59% of British people believe it was a good thing
:40:59. > :41:00.because of the deficits in our school system.
:41:01. > :41:02.And I think partition's a really good example
:41:03. > :41:12.So you have that colonial arrogance that you can redraw a map and it
:41:13. > :41:14.doesn't matter if 12 million people have to move, the same way
:41:15. > :41:18.You have the callous disregard for black and brown lives.
:41:19. > :41:21.You see the slave trade, you see it in Africa,
:41:22. > :41:23.you see it in India, and this is what Empire is.
:41:24. > :41:30.This whole idea about drawing lines, there was this great
:41:31. > :41:35.You can also see that in the following year, 1948,
:41:36. > :41:37.Palestine was partitioned, which has also not turned
:41:38. > :41:46.And also, Iraq that year was stuck together, which also hasn't
:41:47. > :41:51.So I think we can probably say on the evidence
:41:52. > :41:55.of that year that this kind of very high level line drawing
:41:56. > :41:57.on map and then run away state building isn't very successful.
:41:58. > :42:02.But, Yasmin, in order to move forward in this country,
:42:03. > :42:04.do we have to address Empire and in a way
:42:05. > :42:12.I think atonement is a different thing but I think it's our history.
:42:13. > :42:24.When people think about British history in segregation from Empire,
:42:25. > :42:30.to me, that's just unthinkable because the institutions of state,
:42:31. > :42:32.the economy and the people who are here living in Britain,
:42:33. > :42:38.We are all children of Empire, so just to put it in a box
:42:39. > :42:40.as somehow a separate subject denies its fundamental
:42:41. > :42:42.importance to the origins of the modern British state.
:42:43. > :42:45.I think we also need to get away from ideas about it
:42:46. > :42:50.We have heard from some people tonight who did experience it.
:42:51. > :42:53.And they may have their own opinions, but very few of us had
:42:54. > :42:56.It's more about trying to understand why it happened,
:42:57. > :43:01.Why do we find it so difficult in this country to talk about Empire?
:43:02. > :43:04.It's something that is 300 years of the way we behaved and,
:43:05. > :43:06.yet, we set it aside because it's too difficult.
:43:07. > :43:12.I mean, I think there are lots of ways one could try
:43:13. > :43:17.and start moving towards discussions about Empire which perhaps focus
:43:18. > :43:20.more on the positive contributions that we see for instance in this
:43:21. > :43:22.room, of diversity, of flows of goods and people.
:43:23. > :43:29.It was partly incoherent, but it was also largely an economic
:43:30. > :43:37.And as we sit today through a moment of deglobalisation, we can
:43:38. > :43:40.reflect in interesting ways on what it was and what it wasn't
:43:41. > :43:43.and what its legacies have been and what they might
:43:44. > :43:47.And also, there is a new narrative now, which is that India
:43:48. > :43:52.And we are actually going to be looking,
:43:53. > :43:55.going as supplicants to India, in a way, for a lot more trade.
:43:56. > :44:00.But there's also, I think, a misapprehension in many minds,
:44:01. > :44:06.at least in terms of what I've seen, about the approach that Britain's
:44:07. > :44:13.When it goes as a supplicant, there is an assumption that Britain
:44:14. > :44:17.is going to be embraced as long lost friends.
:44:18. > :44:21.That is not how Britain is perceived out there.
:44:22. > :44:26.The sooner the British recognise that, the better.
:44:27. > :44:28.But there is some friendliness towards the British.
:44:29. > :44:41.The term global Britain that Theresa May used the term
:44:42. > :44:48.that is her very differently around the world.
:44:49. > :44:51.They remember global Britain differently.
:44:52. > :44:54.I have spoken to some Indians who say, ask me about Europe.
:44:55. > :44:56.They want to deal with big blocks of commercial power.
:44:57. > :45:12.Now, Empire may be long gone, but its legacy is imprinted
:45:13. > :45:17.In 1948, the government passed an act allowing all citizens
:45:18. > :45:21.of the former colonies to live and work in Britain and help
:45:22. > :45:24.rebuild after the ravages of the Second World War,
:45:25. > :45:32.That open invitation lasted until the early 1960s,
:45:33. > :45:35.and these British citizens that came from South Asia were among those
:45:36. > :45:41.who began the transformation of the way Britain looks today.
:45:42. > :45:50.Canon Roden, what did you know about what happened?
:45:51. > :45:55.Well, I was at secondary school in the 70s, and I learned
:45:56. > :45:57.about Clive of India, and I learned about
:45:58. > :46:05.And then I learned about Gandhi by watching the film.
:46:06. > :46:09.That was the sum total of my historical knowledge.
:46:10. > :46:11.So you decided to do something about it.
:46:12. > :46:20.I thought, I am sure my children, who were at school, I am sure
:46:21. > :46:24.they will be learning all about India and Pakistan
:46:25. > :46:27.and Bangladesh in their history, and then I realised
:46:28. > :46:32.they were learning less than I was learning.
:46:33. > :46:37.The sticking point seemed to be the terribly sad story
:46:38. > :46:45.And that was making teachers very shy of teaching Indian history.
:46:46. > :46:49.So we then tried to set about a method by which we might be
:46:50. > :46:53.able to try and put the Indian history into the school curriculum,
:46:54. > :47:03.And when you tried to educate people, what was the response?
:47:04. > :47:08.Well, I think people would say, "We just didn't know this stuff."
:47:09. > :47:10.At the moment, the history curriculum is Hitler and the Henrys,
:47:11. > :47:14.essentially, and it's not good enough.
:47:15. > :47:17.We have millions of people of South Asian descent in this
:47:18. > :47:22.country, and it's not serving us well.
:47:23. > :47:28.So if partition is the most difficult thing that is stopping us
:47:29. > :47:31.telling the South Asian story, the key thing seemed to be to find
:47:32. > :47:37.So we have been using drama, a very fine play written
:47:38. > :47:48.We got various children in from Luton to watch the play,
:47:49. > :47:52.and then we got the Runnymede Trust in to evaluate how that went.
:47:53. > :48:03.Luckily, we got an Arts Council grant and that play
:48:04. > :48:09.But, really, the government ought to shove this onto the National
:48:10. > :48:22.And to discuss this further, I'm joined by the composer
:48:23. > :48:26.Nitin Sawhney, Shelina Jan-mohamed, author of Generation M and Love
:48:27. > :48:31.in a Headscarf and the writer and broadcaster Sarfraz Manzoor.
:48:32. > :48:39.These narratives that we have about partition in British Asian
:48:40. > :48:48.I think it is partly about whether they get heard.
:48:49. > :48:50.One of the interesting things about the 70th anniversary is that
:48:51. > :48:54.My mum's 84 and never talked about any of this stuff.
:48:55. > :48:57.I think part of it is these stories are so traumatic people didn't
:48:58. > :49:00.want to talk about it but also I don't think there's as much
:49:01. > :49:07.of this oral tradition, in a way, of storytelling so,
:49:08. > :49:11.the only way you can sort of own the part is if you know it.
:49:12. > :49:14.At the moment, I don't feel kids are taught it in schools,
:49:15. > :49:16.and for a long time they haven't been taught it in
:49:17. > :49:19.It's interesting you're saying your mum's talked
:49:20. > :49:22.Has that been very difficult for her?
:49:23. > :49:25.What has been quite interesting, in a way, is that often you see...
:49:26. > :49:28.One of the things that's been interesting about the Radio 4
:49:29. > :49:31.documentary and these programmes, and some of the people you can see,
:49:32. > :49:34.you see these people, they look old, and they look like if you just
:49:35. > :49:37.walked past them, you might just think they are sort of, you know,
:49:38. > :49:46.And you hear their stories, you see there is horror and pain
:49:47. > :49:51.When I listen to my mum, it made me think about her as a 13-year-old
:49:52. > :49:54.girl and seeing all this stuff and hearing these kinds of things.
:49:55. > :49:56.In a way, you're brought back to what these people
:49:57. > :49:59.were like as children rather than as old people.
:50:00. > :50:00.Nitin Sawhney, these stories in your family must
:50:01. > :50:05.I mean, my dad was 20 during the time partition.
:50:06. > :50:08.He came down from Lahore at that time into India and my mum was 11.
:50:09. > :50:12.And they do have very dark and awful stories of bloodshed, and so on.
:50:13. > :50:15.But, at the same time, I think they came to England
:50:16. > :50:21.And I guess one of the legacies is that there is a real sense
:50:22. > :50:24.of resisting racism, to be honest, which I think
:50:25. > :50:28.they passed down to us, to actually really understand
:50:29. > :50:34.Shelina, there is an issue with conversations between the different
:50:35. > :50:37.British Asian communities to discuss this.
:50:38. > :50:40.I've really felt over the last week or so with all this coverage
:50:41. > :50:44.of partition that actually the barometer's felt very emotional.
:50:45. > :50:47.I've sat in front of the TV and cried tears at some
:50:48. > :50:50.of these stories and, actually, what other side,
:50:51. > :50:52.whatever country, origin you're from, your heritage,
:50:53. > :50:55.there's been something about loss and heartbreak that has brought
:50:56. > :50:57.people together and, actually, I think that's rather
:50:58. > :51:01.poignant and ironic given that, actually, we talk about partition
:51:02. > :51:05.but, actually, we ought to talk more about independence.
:51:06. > :51:08.Because this ought to have been a moment of great joy for people
:51:09. > :51:12.And it's very interesting in the UK we talk so much
:51:13. > :51:16.about partition and we don't talk about independence.
:51:17. > :51:19.In a way, that's part of the discussion of trying to think
:51:20. > :51:23.about Empire as this benevolent good thing.
:51:24. > :51:25.Actually, when independence was granted, it could have been done
:51:26. > :51:29.in a completely different way but instead we talk about partition
:51:30. > :51:33.as a sort of trouble of the colonised that made it all go
:51:34. > :51:35.wrong when the seeds of this terrible man-made disaster
:51:36. > :51:37.were in the way that independence was granted.
:51:38. > :51:44.It is good now to have this particular anniversary
:51:45. > :51:48.where we are hearing, as you say, so many more stories.
:51:49. > :51:53.But I wonder, I'm now going to go to the audience
:51:54. > :52:04.You are a Hindu woman married to a Muslim in this country
:52:05. > :52:07.and still the communities, on many levels, are still entirely
:52:08. > :52:09.separate and lots of people within the communities themselves,
:52:10. > :52:16.I wonder what your story is and how your family dealt with it.
:52:17. > :52:23.So, my story is my mother was 17 when she left Lahore.
:52:24. > :52:26.And I guess the genesis of who I chose to marry is the seeds
:52:27. > :52:29.are there in her story, which is that her life was saved
:52:30. > :52:35.by a Muslim neighbour, so he was her brother.
:52:36. > :52:39.He enabled my grandmother and my mother and her sister to escape,
:52:40. > :52:44.The train after everyone was slaughtered.
:52:45. > :52:47.They arrived where they were sheltered by Sikh family,
:52:48. > :52:50.and then she was harassed by Hindu men for being on her own.
:52:51. > :52:55.What she showed me was the complexity of conflict and violence.
:52:56. > :52:58.So she kind of stepped away from saying Muslims do
:52:59. > :53:01.this, or reducing people to their identity, and she spoke
:53:02. > :53:05.of horror, but she also spoke of compassion.
:53:06. > :53:08.And, in a sense, was that a way in which you felt at ease
:53:09. > :53:18.It is a very clear message in any Hindu-Sikh household,
:53:19. > :53:20.do not marry somebody who comes from a Muslim background.
:53:21. > :53:28.It's the whole history of Hinduism, Islam in India, seekers.
:53:29. > :53:34.So, the idea is that partition still reverberates in the lives
:53:35. > :53:42.One of the things I think is very interesting about the potential
:53:43. > :53:44.ripples through it are one of the things when you hear
:53:45. > :53:46.people talk pre-47, you hear people saying,
:53:47. > :53:48.as you've heard, Muslims, Sikhs and Hindus barely
:53:49. > :53:51.knew what their faith was when they turned up to each
:53:52. > :53:58.Pre-9/11, and definitely pre the Iranian revolution,
:53:59. > :54:02.there was a sense of migrant communities basically being Asian.
:54:03. > :54:06.What's happened since 9/11 and after 7/7 is there has been that
:54:07. > :54:08.increased fragmentation and identification by religion,
:54:09. > :54:11.which is exactly what happened after '47,
:54:12. > :54:13.so there are these parallels of identification by
:54:14. > :54:22.The way that we frame the story of independence and partition is...
:54:23. > :54:25.And I speak as somebody who's of Indian heritage,
:54:26. > :54:28.that India is seen as the great inheritor of the greater India
:54:29. > :54:30.and somehow Pakistan and Bangladesh, which,
:54:31. > :54:32.by the way, hasn't been mentioned today.
:54:33. > :54:37.They are somehow the problem children.
:54:38. > :54:44.They're seen as the problem children and that reflects back
:54:45. > :54:48.on the way that we talk about subcontinental communities.
:54:49. > :54:51.This week the Sun published a column about the Muslim problem.
:54:52. > :54:55.So these echoes have regenerated through the years.
:54:56. > :54:58.One of the youngest numbers of the audience is here.
:54:59. > :55:01.You're going to be very honest and I'm going to ask you, what did
:55:02. > :55:09.you actually know about the homeland that your family inhabited?
:55:10. > :55:11.I only knew when I was eight years old that
:55:12. > :55:17.my grandmother came from India to Pakistan.
:55:18. > :55:20.Before then, I had no idea that they were one country before.
:55:21. > :55:22.And I didn't know anything about empire.
:55:23. > :55:26.No one taught it to me, so I didn't learn about it until I was eight.
:55:27. > :55:29.And your family never talked about the idea that they had come
:55:30. > :55:34.from one country and that it had been divided?
:55:35. > :55:38.Well, they might have done, but I probably wasn't
:55:39. > :55:45.It is not taught in schools, Nitin, and I wonder if the divisions exist
:55:46. > :55:51.because many families don't talk about it to their children and they
:55:52. > :55:54.think, all I know is that I am not to marry a Muslim.
:55:55. > :56:06.My parents were very complimentary about other religions.
:56:07. > :56:11.But at the same time, they always said, you should embrace all
:56:12. > :56:13.religions and all different ways of thinking.
:56:14. > :56:18.And I grew up listening to great music like Ravi Shankar and lots
:56:19. > :56:28.As somebody mentioned earlier, food is something we all have in common,
:56:29. > :56:33.but music is also a great celebration of life.
:56:34. > :56:37.So, do you think that divisions in the British Asian
:56:38. > :56:39.community can be closed without a reconciliation
:56:40. > :56:47.I personally think that this amnesia or ignorance that people
:56:48. > :56:51.have, partly through education, I think there is an opportunity there
:56:52. > :56:55.as well, because if people realise that there was a time pre-1947 when
:56:56. > :57:02.they were together, if people realise the role that the British
:57:03. > :57:04.had in creating some of those problems,
:57:05. > :57:07.if they also realise the ties that bind Britain
:57:08. > :57:11.perhaps some of the existential issues of identity facing the second
:57:12. > :57:14.and third generation could be alleviated.
:57:15. > :57:16.We were talking about the idea of the
:57:17. > :57:18.Indians having this idea of a greater Indian.
:57:19. > :57:20.Coming from Pakistani heritage, there is an
:57:21. > :57:23.existential crisis of, how do you feel loyal to a country
:57:24. > :57:30.How can you feel proud about something which is
:57:31. > :57:36.So there are existential questions on that side as well.
:57:37. > :57:39.Do you think this is a defining moment and that the trauma
:57:40. > :57:42.of partition will never go away, but there is something in this
:57:43. > :57:47.I think there is an opportunity because of the way these human
:57:48. > :57:52.It doesn't matter which side of the divide your family came from,
:57:53. > :57:56.There was huge trauma, and that trauma continues
:57:57. > :58:02.It is important when we have the conversation about,
:58:03. > :58:06.what was empire, that the broader British community is in that.
:58:07. > :58:12.This is a discussion that everybody needs to have with honesty.
:58:13. > :58:16.We have to understand that actually, the place we are in today
:58:17. > :58:18.and recognising our place in the world depends
:58:19. > :58:34.That's it from the Radio Theatre at Broadcasting House.
:58:35. > :58:37.From all our guests both on the stage and in our audience,
:58:38. > :59:49.Weather-wise, August is the month that keeps on giving. A cool and
:59:50. > :59:50.fresh start Wednesday morning after a chilly night, but at least lots of