:00:00. > :00:10.The unseen border on the island of Ireland
:00:11. > :00:12.is the latest political dividing line in the Brexit battle.
:00:13. > :00:16.Want to see how soft this border is right now?
:00:17. > :00:19.That van is in the Republic, now it's in the UK.
:00:20. > :00:22.The only hint it's gone from one country to another -
:00:23. > :00:26.the speed-limit signs go from metric to Imperial.
:00:27. > :00:28.And as the British Government publishes its post-Brexit
:00:29. > :00:30.vision for the border, we ask Ireland's Foreign Secretary,
:00:31. > :00:38.A president who seems to side with white supremicists?
:00:39. > :00:40.Is Donald Trump a racist or just another politician
:00:41. > :00:48.We ask his former adviser whether he thinks the president
:00:49. > :00:54.And a story straight out of a Nordic drama.
:00:55. > :00:56.Last week, a Danish rocket engineer was arrested and is being kept
:00:57. > :00:59.in custody as police investigate the circumstances around
:01:00. > :01:02.the disappearance of journalist Kim Wall.
:01:03. > :01:13.I mean, it's really bizarre, it's really bizarre.
:01:14. > :01:16.I mean, he's been out there a lot with people,
:01:17. > :01:17.I've been sailing with him in the submarine.
:01:18. > :01:20.Obviously, he had girls out with him sailing and all that,
:01:21. > :01:37.but what happened that particular day, I've absolutely no idea.
:01:38. > :01:39.Today, the Government published another position
:01:40. > :01:43.paper in the long-running Brexit negotiation saga.
:01:44. > :01:46.Buckle up - we with have at least two more years
:01:47. > :01:52.This briefing, following hot on the heels of proposals
:01:53. > :01:55.regarding the customs union, concerns the UK's position
:01:56. > :01:59.on the Irish border and focuses on the need to avoid a hard border.
:02:00. > :02:03.Northern Ireland is the only part of the UK that will share a land
:02:04. > :02:07.The Government stresses that there should be
:02:08. > :02:12.no new physical infrastructure - such as customs posts or CCTV -
:02:13. > :02:17.at the 300 mile-long border, which has about 200 crossing points.
:02:18. > :02:19.Critics have labelled the document as vague on detail
:02:20. > :02:23.and lambasted the plan as a border smugglers' charter.
:02:24. > :02:27.David Grossman has been crossing the border himself today,
:02:28. > :02:40.If you want to see the complexity of the Irish border in action,
:02:41. > :02:46.follow the tourists to the Guinness brewery in Dublin.
:02:47. > :02:48.Although the famous black liquid is brewed here in Dublin,
:02:49. > :02:56.Some of it is then transported two hours north to Belfast to be bottled
:02:57. > :02:59.and canned and then loaded back onto trucks to travel back
:03:00. > :03:05.It's the sort of interwoven supply chain that's replicated
:03:06. > :03:13.And for those companies, a hard border would be a disaster.
:03:14. > :03:16.The Government's position paper, published today,
:03:17. > :03:19.suggests that lorries like this will, in future,
:03:20. > :03:24.be tracked using new technology to create a frictionless border.
:03:25. > :03:28.As we look forward to Brexit, of course, we do want to ensure
:03:29. > :03:32.that we don't see a return to the borders of the past, we don't
:03:33. > :03:35.see a return to a hard border, and that we're able to ensure
:03:36. > :03:38.that the crucial flow of goods and people between Northern Ireland
:03:39. > :03:41.and the Republic of Ireland is able to continue in the future.
:03:42. > :03:48.At the 15 main road border points, 118,000 vehicles cross each day -
:03:49. > :03:58.80 or more smaller crossing points where data isn't collected.
:03:59. > :04:00.The official estimate is that, in total,
:04:01. > :04:05.there are 110 million crossings by people each year.
:04:06. > :04:08.Wants to see how soft this border is right now?
:04:09. > :04:10.That van is in the Republic, now it's in the UK.
:04:11. > :04:14.The only hint it's gone from one country to another -
:04:15. > :04:19.the speed-limit signs go from metric to Imperial.
:04:20. > :04:23.The UK Government says it should stay as soft as this -
:04:24. > :04:24.no border guards, no buildings, no barriers.
:04:25. > :04:32.At the West Belfast office of Sinn Fein, which campaigned
:04:33. > :04:35.against leaving the EU, they're sceptical that this
:04:36. > :04:40.frictionless, technology-enabled border can actually work.
:04:41. > :04:43.They haven't yet indicated how these technical solutions
:04:44. > :04:49.All the people that we're talking to from the business community,
:04:50. > :04:52.from government departments, all argue that any technical
:04:53. > :04:56.solution will still add at least to further bureaucracy and
:04:57. > :05:00.further barriers to trade, movement of people and citizenship rights
:05:01. > :05:03.and so on, so we see no evidence that there are technical solutions
:05:04. > :05:06.which will not create further barriers on the island of Ireland,
:05:07. > :05:13.which is something we will all be determined to avoid and prevent.
:05:14. > :05:15.In 2015, ?2.7 billion worth of goods
:05:16. > :05:21.was sold from Northern Ireland to the Republic.
:05:22. > :05:23.However, this is dwarfed by the 10.7 billion
:05:24. > :05:28.that was sold from Northern Ireland to Great Britain.
:05:29. > :05:32.This is why the UK Government position paper rejects the idea that
:05:33. > :05:35.some have come up with of moving the border from where it is now
:05:36. > :05:38.to the Irish Sea, to allow the island of Ireland
:05:39. > :05:44.The Government has said that the idea of moving the border
:05:45. > :05:48.is both constitutionally and economically wrong.
:05:49. > :05:51.That is music to the ears of the DUP, the party which is now,
:05:52. > :05:59.to support Theresa May's administration.
:06:00. > :06:02.We will not accept, and the Government has now said
:06:03. > :06:07.it will not accept, special status for Northern Ireland
:06:08. > :06:10.which removes Northern Ireland from the rest of the United Kingdom
:06:11. > :06:14.And don't forget, it's the Irish Government and the EU
:06:15. > :06:17.negotiators who have said they do not wish to upset the terms
:06:18. > :06:23.And the terms of the Good Friday agreement make it quite clear
:06:24. > :06:26.that the constitutional status of Northern Ireland cannot be
:06:27. > :06:28.changed unless there is a clear majority in Northern Ireland
:06:29. > :06:36.So the Guinness, and the thousands of other products,
:06:37. > :06:39.keep flowing across the border unchallenged for now.
:06:40. > :06:43.Today's position paper is designed to put pressure on both the EU
:06:44. > :06:49.and the Irish government to help keep it that way.
:06:50. > :06:52.But what does the Irish government think of the proposals?
:06:53. > :06:55.I spoke to Simon Coveney, Ireland's Foreign Secretary,
:06:56. > :07:00.I began by asking whether he welcomed the Government's proposals.
:07:01. > :07:03.Well, certainly, I think we welcome the publication
:07:04. > :07:07.of a detailed written document, and we've been calling now for
:07:08. > :07:10.quite some time for a detailed paper from the British Government
:07:11. > :07:15.on what their aspirations are in the context
:07:16. > :07:19.of Ireland and Northern Ireland, for the Brexit negotiations,
:07:20. > :07:27.There's a lot of good stuff in it from our perspective,
:07:28. > :07:31.very strong language in terms of protecting the Good Friday
:07:32. > :07:33.agreement in full, very strong, supportive language around what's
:07:34. > :07:36.called the common travel area, which for many, many years,
:07:37. > :07:38.long before we joined the European Union, has allowed
:07:39. > :07:41.British people in Ireland and Irish people in Britain to enjoy
:07:42. > :07:44.There has been suggestions, up until now, coming from
:07:45. > :07:47.some sources of the UK that, look, we can solve
:07:48. > :07:51.this problem by technology, by putting cameras on the border,
:07:52. > :07:53.having numberplate recognition systems.
:07:54. > :07:55.And I've always been very sceptical of that,
:07:56. > :07:58.and so that why it is very welcome today that the British Government
:07:59. > :08:00.is saying clearly that there will be no infrastructure
:08:01. > :08:08.Let's just say your counterparts in Brussels, the 26 other countries,
:08:09. > :08:12.do not go for this and we end up with no deal, as Theresa May
:08:13. > :08:15.has said might be the case, and let's say we are in a situation
:08:16. > :08:18.where the UK allows chlorinated chicken from America -
:08:19. > :08:21.will that be a circumstance within which
:08:22. > :08:27.the Irish government will erect some kind of border?
:08:28. > :08:31.Well, you know, if Britain decide to take an approach
:08:32. > :08:33.that clearly applies different food safety standards to Britain,
:08:34. > :08:36.including Northern Ireland, to the common market
:08:37. > :08:39.in the European Union, then we have a real problem.
:08:40. > :08:41.There are two partners in this negotiation.
:08:42. > :08:45.The other happens to represent 27 other countries,
:08:46. > :08:48.so what we have today from Britain, which is welcome,
:08:49. > :08:52.is an approach to the negotiations, much of which is very much supported
:08:53. > :08:55.by the Irish government, but we will have to thrash
:08:56. > :08:59.through the issues, find compromises, make sure
:09:00. > :09:02.that we protect the integrity of the European Union in
:09:03. > :09:06.these negotiations, as well as try to facilitate British ambition.
:09:07. > :09:10.The idea that Britain is going to be able to negotiate its own free-trade
:09:11. > :09:13.agreements with countries all over the world and at the same time
:09:14. > :09:16.expect barrier-free access into the single market,
:09:17. > :09:20.I don't think that that in itself is realistic.
:09:21. > :09:24.But if the final deal on the Irish border came back with,
:09:25. > :09:29.let's say the other 26 members of the European Union wanting
:09:30. > :09:35.a harder border solution, would you veto the deal?
:09:36. > :09:38.Well, I'm not going to talk about what ifs at this stage,
:09:39. > :09:40.we are part of the other negotiating side,
:09:41. > :09:42.we are part of the EU negotiating team.
:09:43. > :09:48.Michel Barnier has been very vocal and very protective
:09:49. > :09:51.of Irish interests to date, because he has made it very clear
:09:52. > :09:52.that Irish interests are European interests.
:09:53. > :09:57.This, in many ways, is a test of the European Union in terms
:09:58. > :10:00.of how it protects small member states, which is exactly what it
:10:01. > :10:03.needs to do here in the context of the consequences
:10:04. > :10:08.In your statement today, you said you would be realistic and fair,
:10:09. > :10:11.but "We will also be stubborn in relation to defending
:10:12. > :10:17.If you were in a situation where a hard border was favoured
:10:18. > :10:19.by your fellow members, I presume you would be stubborn
:10:20. > :10:24.then in vetoing it, that is what I am testing, your resolve.
:10:25. > :10:28.I don't think we will be in that place, because the EU has already
:10:29. > :10:30.shown a willingness to show real flexibility to try to accommodate
:10:31. > :10:33.what are very real vulnerabilities for Ireland in the context of Brexit
:10:34. > :10:36.- and Britain also in the context of Northern Ireland.
:10:37. > :10:40.And so we need to work this out and find the political solution
:10:41. > :10:43.is that, in my view, effectively allows Northern Ireland
:10:44. > :10:46.to become an extension of the EU customs union,
:10:47. > :10:50.to create equivalence north and south of the border that can
:10:51. > :10:52.allow the free movement not only of people but also of goods.
:10:53. > :10:55.We also need to find a solution for services.
:10:56. > :10:59.The British Government talks about the need for a common energy
:11:00. > :11:04.market north and south, because they are totally
:11:05. > :11:09.So all of these things are part of the complexity
:11:10. > :11:11.of Brexit, which of course is a consequence of leaving.
:11:12. > :11:14.And you know, Ireland is a country that had nothing to do
:11:15. > :11:17.with the decision for Britain to leave the European Union
:11:18. > :11:20.but is very much now in the middle of the debate to try and ensure
:11:21. > :11:22.that we protect ourselves in that context.
:11:23. > :11:25.And that is what I mean when I say that Ireland
:11:26. > :11:27.will be fair and realistic, but also stubborn.
:11:28. > :11:29.If we believe that these negotiations are moving
:11:30. > :11:35.in the wrong direction, if we believe the British
:11:36. > :11:38.Government is being unreasonable, we will say so.
:11:39. > :11:41.I mean, I believe that Ireland is actually Britain's closest
:11:42. > :11:43.friend here in the context of Brexit, and friends need
:11:44. > :11:48.I think some of the aspirations that I've heard are not realistic -
:11:49. > :11:50.in the context of the Brexit negotiations -
:11:51. > :11:54.and I need to be honest about that, but I think a lot of what we've seen
:11:55. > :11:57.today in the Irish and Northern Ireland paper coming
:11:58. > :12:04.from the British Government is really good.
:12:05. > :12:06.The Irish Foreign Minister, Simon Coveney, who I was speaking
:12:07. > :12:13.or a racial slur from a politician who should know better?
:12:14. > :12:17.Earlier today, Sarah Champion - the Shadow Women
:12:18. > :12:21.and Equalities Minister - resigned from Labour's front bench
:12:22. > :12:24.after a row erupted about an article she penned for the Sun newspaper.
:12:25. > :12:28."British Pakistani men are raping and exploiting white girls,
:12:29. > :12:36.In the opinion piece, she wrote that "We must accept
:12:37. > :12:39.for gang-related child sexual exploitation, the convictions
:12:40. > :12:45.have largely been against British Pakistani men."
:12:46. > :12:47.She has now apologised for the offence caused
:12:48. > :12:49.by her "extremely poor choice of words".
:12:50. > :12:51.But does she have anything to say sorry for?
:12:52. > :12:54.I'm joined now in the studio by Muhbeen Hussain,
:12:55. > :12:57.the founder of British Muslim Youth, and from Salford by Amina Lone,
:12:58. > :13:03.from the Social Action and Research Foundation.
:13:04. > :13:11.Let me come to you first, Amina, was Sarah champion right to resign from
:13:12. > :13:15.her post as shadow women and Equalities Minister? No, I don't
:13:16. > :13:19.think she was, I think she has been punished for a subsequent Collen in
:13:20. > :13:24.the same paper that referenced her article. And she also said in her
:13:25. > :13:28.article that the vast majority of convictions are against white men
:13:29. > :13:34.acting alone. We don't see an outcry from white men. It is understandable
:13:35. > :13:38.that those crimes are mostly committed by white men in this
:13:39. > :13:41.country, but she was specific about a certain type of crime from the
:13:42. > :13:44.community, with cultural differences, and I think she is
:13:45. > :13:49.being punished and used as a scapegoat because she is an easy
:13:50. > :13:54.target as a politician. She was very specific about the type of crime she
:13:55. > :13:57.was talking about, she has been made a scapegoat? The one thing that we
:13:58. > :14:03.have to be very clear on, it isn't racist to say that Pakistani men are
:14:04. > :14:06.overrepresented there when it comes to on street grooming, as it is not
:14:07. > :14:12.racist to say that when you look at the majority of child exploitation,
:14:13. > :14:16.white men are, in terms of convictions and prosecutions...
:14:17. > :14:22.Should she have lost their position? I will come to that. She resigned
:14:23. > :14:26.because she had claimed that she found... She condemned the headline,
:14:27. > :14:31.she did not agree with it, and what came out from her office manager was
:14:32. > :14:35.that she was not only accepting of and Budget was thrilled with it.
:14:36. > :14:39.This is why she resigned. She resigned because of the
:14:40. > :14:44.contradiction of her own statements. Rather than use saying why she
:14:45. > :14:49.resigned, I am asking you, should she resign? I think it would have
:14:50. > :14:54.been a better idea if she apologised... She has apologised.
:14:55. > :14:57.She apologised six days later. It isn't just about the article, it is
:14:58. > :15:03.not about stating facts, it is about the language, the rhetoric, the
:15:04. > :15:07.ramifications of it. One of the ramifications is yes, Trevor
:15:08. > :15:10.Kavanagh's peas which went on to thank Sarah champion for making it
:15:11. > :15:13.acceptable to talk about the Muslim problem.
:15:14. > :15:20.This was a separate piece written by a different writers still employed
:15:21. > :15:24.by the Sun who quoted Sarah Champion, so you are talking about
:15:25. > :15:28.the context of that. Which this piece fuelled and we have to
:15:29. > :15:32.understand language is important and language can fuel. We can understand
:15:33. > :15:35.that when Sarah Champion was saying that British Pakistanis are raping
:15:36. > :15:39.white girls, she was not talking about Sajid Javid the Secretary of
:15:40. > :15:44.State, Sadiq Khan, and she wasn't talking about the vast majority of
:15:45. > :15:50.Pakistani males. Let me to make this one important point, has anyone
:15:51. > :15:55.heard about an 81-year-old Yemeni man who was murdered two years ago
:15:56. > :16:00.and approached by two far-right white extremists and called a
:16:01. > :16:06.groomer and murdered on the Eve of his second anniversary? Can we stick
:16:07. > :16:09.with this issue. Can you react to that point that her language fuels
:16:10. > :16:16.other kinds of hatred and other kinds of prejudice? No, to accuse
:16:17. > :16:21.Sarah Champion of fuelling racism, it is lazy and it is easy to do. And
:16:22. > :16:24.if we are going to use, it was clumsy words and she apologised for
:16:25. > :16:29.those words, but you have to understand that victims of sexual
:16:30. > :16:34.abuse rarely get heard and believed, they were let down by the system and
:16:35. > :16:37.the communities. Many faith communities pushed back, the
:16:38. > :16:40.Catholic Church did when it had its own scandal about sexual
:16:41. > :16:44.exploitation and understandably, some people in the Muslim community
:16:45. > :16:48.are doing that. But this is largely men who are very angry about this.
:16:49. > :16:52.And some of the stuff that I have seen on social media describing the
:16:53. > :16:55.glee they have got with Sarah Champion resigning is astonishing
:16:56. > :16:58.and if we are going to talk about language and responsibility, then
:16:59. > :17:05.that the same argument that people like extremists and Isis use when
:17:06. > :17:09.they justify what they do from Islamic language so it works both
:17:10. > :17:16.ways if you use those arguments. One of the issues around many of these
:17:17. > :17:19.cases to do with gang-related grooming has been, of many, that the
:17:20. > :17:23.police and authorities involved have been scared to broach the issue
:17:24. > :17:27.because they are worried about perceived racism. We now in a
:17:28. > :17:30.situation where we have got an MP who we should say is the MP for
:17:31. > :17:35.other rum, who has campaigned actively to help those who have been
:17:36. > :17:39.in these situations and beyond, we in a situation where she has had to
:17:40. > :17:43.stand down as Meite feel she has the stands down from this post because
:17:44. > :17:48.she herself cannot talk about this, is that not the problem? That we
:17:49. > :17:50.make it quite clear, I have supported Sarah Champion and voted
:17:51. > :17:56.for Sarah Champion. Do you understand that issue? If I can
:17:57. > :18:00.comment, I voted for her and supported her advocacy work when it
:18:01. > :18:04.comes to this. But what we have to understand just to say political
:18:05. > :18:08.correctness is an issue, this is not what the South Yorkshire Police are
:18:09. > :18:11.saying today. I spoke to the head of South Yorkshire Police and they are
:18:12. > :18:15.not saying political correctness got in the way and this is why, three
:18:16. > :18:18.years on, there has not been a single failure from the police or
:18:19. > :18:23.the social services that has been challenged. Where have the
:18:24. > :18:27.resignations been, where have the people who have supposedly... Could
:18:28. > :18:33.you not say this has contributed? Let me finish. We're nearly out of
:18:34. > :18:36.time. It has contributed to a climate of people being scared to
:18:37. > :18:41.say what is a real issue? The worst thing about it is that for six days
:18:42. > :18:45.we talked about critical correctness and race and we have forgotten the
:18:46. > :18:51.victims that are being brutally abused. And some people would say an
:18:52. > :18:57.MP is now out of a job, a Shadow Secretary of State, where she had
:18:58. > :19:04.more power to help. We are not collateral damage. We have not
:19:05. > :19:08.spoken about Ahmed who was murdered for being called a groomer. We must
:19:09. > :19:13.stand up for these girls and far right extremists. If that is the
:19:14. > :19:17.case we must stand up for the girls, the first thing you must do is
:19:18. > :19:20.believe it... Yes, we have demonstrated against them. You must
:19:21. > :19:25.create a space within communities where you can talk about it.
:19:26. > :19:31.Unfortunately, there is still a culture of the blue around sexual
:19:32. > :19:33.exploitation, Asian girls get bailed systematically by the community
:19:34. > :19:40.because they get ostracised. So let's talk about it. Do not say, I
:19:41. > :19:42.supported Sarah Champion... I am sorry, we have to leave that there,
:19:43. > :19:45.thank you very much. Is Donald Trump a racist,
:19:46. > :19:47.or just another politician That's what's being asked
:19:48. > :19:50.across America and around Only 24 hours after the US President
:19:51. > :19:54.explicitly condemned white supremacists and neo-Nazis
:19:55. > :20:00.over their violent protest in Charlottesville, Virginia -
:20:01. > :20:02.having being condemned for not doing so earlier - Donald Trump has
:20:03. > :20:04.back-pedalled, saying there was "blame on both sides"
:20:05. > :20:07.and not all marchers Theresa May made her position clear
:20:08. > :20:16.today, saying it was important to condemn far-right views "wherever
:20:17. > :20:23.we hear them". So what was Donald Trump
:20:24. > :20:25.trying to say and why did I asked Sam Nunberg,
:20:26. > :20:39.former political adviser I think it was unnecessary for the
:20:40. > :20:43.President yesterday during his press conference to leave it up to
:20:44. > :20:47.reinterpretation about his initial two statements. If you go over the
:20:48. > :20:50.choreography of the first two, his initial statement says there is
:20:51. > :20:57.violence on both sides, I condemn it, I end Tiley condemn it and it is
:20:58. > :21:00.not excusable -- I entirely. Sam, surely it is a very easy thing
:21:01. > :21:03.for a President to stand there, just like people on the Republican
:21:04. > :21:06.side have done, the Bushes... The Bushes have come out now
:21:07. > :21:09.and said, we need to unilaterally just condemn and reject bigotry
:21:10. > :21:11.and violence and just say that, in reference to the KKK members
:21:12. > :21:14.and the white supremacists. The President did,
:21:15. > :21:27.in his second statement. But he seems to have undone some
:21:28. > :21:30.of that work with his comments, And what I'm trying to understand
:21:31. > :21:33.from you, as someone who's worked for him,
:21:34. > :21:35.is, does he actually hold prejudiced views,
:21:36. > :21:37.or is he just trying OK, so first of all, he does not
:21:38. > :21:41.hold any prejudices at all. We can go into it, I can tell
:21:42. > :21:45.you about it from my own But I also just want to take
:21:46. > :21:49.the premise of your question, His base is not neo-Nazis,
:21:50. > :21:55.his base is not the KKK. His base are Republicans
:21:56. > :21:57.and blue-collar white - predominantly - Democrats
:21:58. > :21:58.and self-described Independents, and they came out and
:21:59. > :22:06.they voted for him. If you say Trump holds no racist
:22:07. > :22:08.or prejudiced views, is one of the reasons why he is kind
:22:09. > :22:12.of fudging it a bit because he doesn't want to offend
:22:13. > :22:14.that part of his base? What it is, and this
:22:15. > :22:19.is where I find it offensive, We feel that the entire base,
:22:20. > :22:25.that this movement and this organic movement that came out that we have
:22:26. > :22:28.not seen since the '80s, that got him into office,
:22:29. > :22:33.where he won states such as Michigan, Wisconsin,
:22:34. > :22:35.Pennsylvania, that Republicans have not won in over 35 years,
:22:36. > :22:40.we feel that it is completely delegitimised by parts of the media
:22:41. > :22:48.when they have incidents like this that you then want to say -
:22:49. > :22:52.well, they're just a bunch of KKK, they're just a bunch of white
:22:53. > :22:55.nationalists and they're just Has Donald Trump done
:22:56. > :22:59.himself a disservice, then, by muddying the waters
:23:00. > :23:00.and getting defensive? He certainly left it
:23:01. > :23:03.up to interpretation that his opponents, or others,
:23:04. > :23:06.or any neutral observers frankly can run with, and he left it up
:23:07. > :23:08.to an interpretation that his political enemies
:23:09. > :23:12.can use against him. But by no means is he a racist,
:23:13. > :23:15.or by no means is he an anti-Semite. I worked for him
:23:16. > :23:21.from 2011 to mid-2015. I worked for him when people
:23:22. > :23:25.in my industry would laugh at me when I said, this guy can be elected
:23:26. > :23:27.President. I worked hundreds of hours
:23:28. > :23:29.a week for him, nobody would take my phone calls,
:23:30. > :23:31.we were laughed at, he was called a birther,
:23:32. > :23:36.he was called a joke. People in the elite
:23:37. > :23:39.said he had no chance. And subsequently, people leaked
:23:40. > :23:41.out an eight-year-old Nevertheless, I took responsibility
:23:42. > :23:46.for it and I was forgiven Yes, Sam, if I may,
:23:47. > :23:52.just to remind people. You put up this post and you did use
:23:53. > :23:55.the N word and that was For a racially charged
:23:56. > :24:14.Facebook post. Even after I was forgiven
:24:15. > :24:19.by Reverend Sharpton. So, if anything, it shows that
:24:20. > :24:24.Trump is not a racist, he doesn't want to be
:24:25. > :24:28.associated with them. And that was after being with me
:24:29. > :24:32.for five and a half years and knowing that I don't
:24:33. > :24:34.have a racist bone I mentioned the Bushes have come out
:24:35. > :24:38.and said there should be no equivocation about the condemnation
:24:39. > :24:40.of racism, bigotry. And we've also heard only
:24:41. > :24:43.a few hours ago that Donald Trump has closed down
:24:44. > :24:46.the Manufacturing Council as well, with regards to the people
:24:47. > :24:48.around him and the people who are having to sit around him,
:24:49. > :24:52.because some of them were also very aggrieved by his comments,
:24:53. > :24:53.or lack of comments, Is he going to be
:24:54. > :25:00.feeling isolated now? I'm sure he will do an interview,
:25:01. > :25:07.or he will speak to the American people, and he'll start going back
:25:08. > :25:09.on the agenda. At the end of the day,
:25:10. > :25:12.Donald Trump will live or die If the economy is doing well,
:25:13. > :25:16.the world seems secure, If it is not and he cannot
:25:17. > :25:22.get an agenda through, he cannot pass tax reform,
:25:23. > :25:25.he can't fix health care, he will have trouble
:25:26. > :25:33.getting re-elected. Sam, thank you very much
:25:34. > :25:36.for talking to us today. It's like a script straight out
:25:37. > :25:39.of a Nordic thriller. Last week, a Danish rocket
:25:40. > :25:41.engineer was arrested and is being kept in custody,
:25:42. > :25:43.as police investigate the circumstances around
:25:44. > :25:45.the disappearance of the journalist She was interviewing him aboard a
:25:46. > :25:53.submarine. On Thursday night, off a small dock
:25:54. > :26:15.to the south of Copenhagen, journalist Kim Wall departed
:26:16. > :26:17.with celebrity engineer and rocket scientist Peter Madsen
:26:18. > :26:21.in his self-designed submarine. 17 hours later, Madsen
:26:22. > :26:31.was rescued by locals after his submarine had sunk,
:26:32. > :26:38.without Kim Wall. What happened in those 17 hours
:26:39. > :26:41.has been the subject Madsen's account of the night's
:26:42. > :26:49.events given to the police has been This is the rather gloomy looking
:26:50. > :26:53.dock that Peter Madsen claims to have dropped off Kim Wall
:26:54. > :26:58.at about 10:30pm on Thursday. Now, it's 10:30pm tonight and,
:26:59. > :27:01.as you can probably see, But helpfully for the police,
:27:02. > :27:09.a local bar owner here claims to have the whole area covered
:27:10. > :27:11.with CCTV, and we're Right, so, there's loads
:27:12. > :27:16.of CCTV here, clearly. And it's all looking out over this
:27:17. > :27:27.dock, where Peter Madsen claims So you have this information,
:27:28. > :27:44.but you're not going to even try No, what I'm saying is that
:27:45. > :27:49.I have bits and pieces I don't in any way think
:27:50. > :27:54.I can comment on what On Thursday night, workers around
:27:55. > :28:02.the south of the dock were helping You were here on Thursday
:28:03. > :28:08.night until when? So, Peter Madsen claimed that he had
:28:09. > :28:21.brought the submarine back... We saw the submarine over here like,
:28:22. > :28:34.the days before, but not... Excuse me, madam,
:28:35. > :28:36.we're from the BBC. We were wondering, I wanted
:28:37. > :28:44.to quickly ask you, do Yeah, actually, I was here,
:28:45. > :28:53.but I didn't see anything. Kim Wall grew up in the small
:28:54. > :29:04.Swedish town of Trelleborg and is a talented journalist,
:29:05. > :29:07.writing in the New York Times We knew her since she was
:29:08. > :29:14.a small kid, Kim Wall, There are lots of people knowing
:29:15. > :29:25.the family, and so...and also her. Peter Madsen's submarine
:29:26. > :29:49.sank in Koge Bay, 30 miles from Copenhagen -
:29:50. > :29:51.he says because of One of the first people to locate
:29:52. > :29:56.Peter Madsen's submarine was and he told me that as he approached
:29:57. > :30:08.the submarine, it began to sink. Police now think he may have
:30:09. > :30:14.scuttled his own sub. Peter Madsen is well-known
:30:15. > :30:17.here in Denmark. He calls himself
:30:18. > :30:19.an invent-repreneur, with a goal of putting
:30:20. > :30:22.people into space. His submarine is said to be one
:30:23. > :30:25.of the biggest of its kind in the world, and it's something
:30:26. > :30:28.he was deeply proud of. I mean, he's been out
:30:29. > :30:44.there a lot with people. I've been sailing with him
:30:45. > :30:46.on that submarine. Obviously, he had girls
:30:47. > :30:49.out with him sailing and all that, but what happened
:30:50. > :30:52.that particular day? I mean, obviously, it's strange
:30:53. > :30:57.that he sank his U-boat. That's what the police said,
:30:58. > :31:03.he sunk it on purpose, It's like, he...
:31:04. > :31:14.He, er... It was such a huge effort
:31:15. > :31:16.to build this boat. And it was such a big part
:31:17. > :31:20.of him and his life, so... Some of Peter Madsen's story raises
:31:21. > :31:28.more questions than answers and, as a result, the focus automatically
:31:29. > :31:33.shifts to Kim Wall. What was she doing in
:31:34. > :31:36.Peter Madsen's submarine? Was she investigating him,
:31:37. > :31:41.or did something just go One of the possibilities
:31:42. > :31:50.is that this is murder, and, obviously, then you need
:31:51. > :31:52.to look for a motive. Are there journalists that sort of
:31:53. > :31:55.do investigations on Peter Madsen? Has that been done before?
:31:56. > :31:58.No, not in this kind of way. I've never seen an
:31:59. > :31:59.investigation into that. And I must say that I think
:32:00. > :32:03.that I'm the journalist that by far has written the most about him,
:32:04. > :32:06.so I would know that. I see him as a very nice and loving
:32:07. > :32:10.person, with very sound core values. He was obviously a man that had
:32:11. > :32:19.fights with a lot of people. I mean, he has a whole water
:32:20. > :32:25.of people behind him that he has been in fights with,
:32:26. > :32:28.er, and I have been in arguments with him myself, but I've never
:32:29. > :32:31.experienced an unstable man - in the sense that
:32:32. > :32:35.I am afraid of him. Madsen denies the charges
:32:36. > :32:38.against him and says he's innocent, As the days draw out, hope
:32:39. > :32:45.of finding her alive diminishes. It starts with -
:32:46. > :32:52.something has happened, but we hope that there
:32:53. > :33:02.will be some end of it. So we know how this, yeah, sad thing
:33:03. > :33:10.- or good thing - will end up. That was James Clayton,
:33:11. > :33:14.with filmmaker Jamie Bowles. Now, you know the difference
:33:15. > :33:17.between the two statistics the Government uses to measure
:33:18. > :33:20.inflation - the RPI and the CPI. But just in case -
:33:21. > :33:26.both the retail price index and the consumer price index look
:33:27. > :33:29.at how much prices are increasing. But they are calculated
:33:30. > :33:32.in different ways, and that means
:33:33. > :33:35.the RPI is generally higher. Well, rail fares are going up 3.6%
:33:36. > :33:41.in January, and the interest rate
:33:42. > :33:47.on student loans has risen to 6.1%. These are both linked
:33:48. > :33:54.to the higher RPI rate of inflation, and some believe it's
:33:55. > :34:00.a way for the Government to rip off you, the
:34:01. > :34:02.consumer - but is it? It was created in 1947,
:34:03. > :34:07.when rationing was in But to many economists,
:34:08. > :34:13.the retail prices index and to most consumers
:34:14. > :34:20.it's just a few letters. Replace the R with C, and it becomes
:34:21. > :34:27.the consumer prices index. Both track the rise in prices
:34:28. > :34:31.of a basket of goods and services, but there's good reason
:34:32. > :34:35.to take an interest Commuters should care -
:34:36. > :34:40.the Government links rises in regulated rail fares to RPI,
:34:41. > :34:45.which, in July, was 3.6%. Students should care too - interest
:34:46. > :34:51.on their loans is linked to RPI. is that RPI is widely seen
:34:52. > :34:57.as a flawed measure. The RPI lost its status
:34:58. > :35:01.as a national statistic in 2013, and there were a number
:35:02. > :35:06.of weaknesses identified that means that RPI tends to be higher
:35:07. > :35:11.than other measures of inflation. So overall we do not see the RPI
:35:12. > :35:15.as a good measure of inflation, and we strongly discourage people
:35:16. > :35:20.from using it. This line shows the difference
:35:21. > :35:24.between RPI and CPI. In the financial crisis,
:35:25. > :35:28.as interest rates were slashed, But otherwise RPI has
:35:29. > :35:36.consistently been higher, and that could leave the nation's
:35:37. > :35:39.commuters and students There may only be one letter in it,
:35:40. > :35:47.but actually there are three big The first is how
:35:48. > :35:52.they measure housing costs. RPI, for example, includes
:35:53. > :35:56.mortgage interest payments, RPI exclude some of the highest
:35:57. > :36:05.earners and some of the poorest households, whereas CPI
:36:06. > :36:11.effectively covers everyone. But the third one is
:36:12. > :36:13.the big one - the formula. The two are just worked
:36:14. > :36:17.out differently. To produce the price index,
:36:18. > :36:19.the Government has to collect, I think, about 250,000
:36:20. > :36:23.prices every month. The method that they use for some
:36:24. > :36:27.parts of the retail price index is known to create an upward bias,
:36:28. > :36:35.things go up by more than they come down, and for that reason
:36:36. > :36:37.the International Labour Office, which offers international
:36:38. > :36:39.guidelines on how to compile price indices, has been saying for decades
:36:40. > :36:45.that this measure shouldn't be used. Despite this, the Government says it
:36:46. > :36:49.has no plans to change its policies. But why not, given that the
:36:50. > :36:54.Government itself also gets stung? It pays interest on hundreds
:36:55. > :36:57.of billions of pounds' worth Those interest payments
:36:58. > :37:05.are also linked to RPI. Meanwhile,
:37:06. > :37:10.the Office of National Statistics We are required by law
:37:11. > :37:14.to publish the retail prices index, but we also know that there are
:37:15. > :37:18.a number of long-term contracts, many signed a long time ago,
:37:19. > :37:24.that use the retail prices index, so stopping it would simply
:37:25. > :37:27.not be practical. Our approach has been instead
:37:28. > :37:30.to develop other measures that that people can use
:37:31. > :37:35.instead of the RPI. My sense is that if anything,
:37:36. > :37:38.the problems with the retail prices index are going to get worse,
:37:39. > :37:41.rather than better, as shopping habits change,
:37:42. > :37:46.and I think it would be much better for the Government to address
:37:47. > :37:49.and resolve the problem than for the Government,
:37:50. > :37:52.the British Government, to carry on publishing a statistic
:37:53. > :37:57.which is known to be flawed. Rail companies, bond investors,
:37:58. > :38:00.the student loans market while the taxpayer
:38:01. > :38:05.could stand to benefit. Perhaps it's time
:38:06. > :38:11.to consign RPI to history. an economist
:38:12. > :38:15.from the Royal Statistical Society, and Ben Southwood from
:38:16. > :38:27.the Adam Smith Institute. If I could come due first, Ben,
:38:28. > :38:32.consumers are going to be laid end in our pocket if they are being hit
:38:33. > :38:38.by rail price increases, are they being ripped off by the Government?
:38:39. > :38:41.In a sense, they are. As was adequately shown there, RPI is a bad
:38:42. > :38:48.measure of true inflation, although true inflation is an abstract
:38:49. > :38:51.concept and all we have measures. Because RPI comes in slightly high,
:38:52. > :38:55.it has allowed the Government to achieve a couple of political goals,
:38:56. > :38:59.shifting the burden of rail onto those who use it, and not the
:39:00. > :39:04.general taxpayer, lightening the burden on the general taxpayer,
:39:05. > :39:12.going up from 50% of a ticket paid by the person who uses the train to
:39:13. > :39:17.65%. And students? Students pay about 55% of their loans, and the
:39:18. > :39:22.Government pays about 45%. Now, if we charged them less, the Government
:39:23. > :39:27.would pick up more of the cost of the education. There is a reasonable
:39:28. > :39:30.case for that, but a student who benefits from a degree, there is a
:39:31. > :39:35.reasonable case for them paying for that. Is it time for the Government
:39:36. > :39:40.to retire RPI? It can't retire RPI for a number of reasons, because it
:39:41. > :39:48.is used in many contracts, private and public. It is not always as bad
:39:49. > :39:53.as it is painted. There are advantage is to it. For example, it
:39:54. > :39:56.was designed to measure inflation as experienced by households, whereas
:39:57. > :40:02.CPI was designed for macroeconomic purposes. So CPI is very good, for
:40:03. > :40:05.example, as the target rate for the Bank of England, but not so good if
:40:06. > :40:09.you want to actually measure the impact of inflation on households.
:40:10. > :40:12.But at the end of the day, people don't care about how things are
:40:13. > :40:19.indexed, they care about the bottom line in their bank balance, and if
:40:20. > :40:22.they hear about the benefit of paying off debts, people paying
:40:23. > :40:27.those bills are actually using those services, if you agree with that,
:40:28. > :40:32.the idea that they are being ripped off does not make people happy. That
:40:33. > :40:36.is absolutely right, and I think the Government is fairly shameless in
:40:37. > :40:41.the way it uses RPI and CPI, because it tends to use CPI when it is
:40:42. > :40:44.paying out money, for example on some benefits, public sector
:40:45. > :40:51.pensions, and it off when users RPI when people are paying out money, as
:40:52. > :40:54.with rail fares, student loans and a number of other things. How can you
:40:55. > :40:57.feel OK with that? I think if I was at home, I would be shaking my best
:40:58. > :41:04.at the television. I don't think it makes much of a difference. If you
:41:05. > :41:09.had student loans set as RPI plus some number, if it always comes in
:41:10. > :41:13.at 0.5% above CPI, to make the same bank balance for the Government, the
:41:14. > :41:17.same balance between taxpayers and users of the service, added the 0.5%
:41:18. > :41:23.onto the arbiter in number, it doesn't really matter which one you
:41:24. > :41:28.use. The decision is a political one of who bears the burden. I think it
:41:29. > :41:33.is dishonest. The other thing is that it is inefficient, because the
:41:34. > :41:36.difference between RPI and CPI, as your graph showed, is not constant,
:41:37. > :41:45.and at times RPI has been lower than CPI. But in future we cannot change
:41:46. > :41:51.it? The others for national statistics as to keep on publishing
:41:52. > :41:54.RPI. -- the office for national statistics. For legal reasons, it is
:41:55. > :41:58.difficult to correct the overestimation, although it would be
:41:59. > :42:02.possible technically, so we are in a bit of a bind, which is one reason
:42:03. > :42:09.that the ONS is creating a new index, yet another. That is the
:42:10. > :42:13.household costs index. We will talk about that another time. That is all
:42:14. > :42:24.we have time for this evening. Good night.
:42:25. > :42:29.We have got rain moving eastwards at the moment, there will still be some
:42:30. > :42:33.to clear away in the morning from southern and eastern England, it
:42:34. > :42:39.shouldn't last long, cloud will take longer to break up before there is
:42:40. > :42:42.sunshine and showers further north. I think we will catch showers in
:42:43. > :42:44.Northern Ireland, on and off, heavier ones towards the north, and
:42:45. > :42:46.a few