:00:00. > :00:12.And yet again, the attacker used a vehicle as his weapon.
:00:13. > :00:17.At least 13 are dead and over a hundred injured
:00:18. > :00:22.in the attack on one of Barcelona's busiest tourist areas.
:00:23. > :00:25.Then I saw it careering down the road, going about 40-50 mph
:00:26. > :00:27.and, you know, if anything, picking up pace.
:00:28. > :00:29.And, you know, I heard people screaming,
:00:30. > :00:35.and I thought immediately, "This is a terrorist attack."
:00:36. > :00:38.We'll discuss what this attack can tell us about
:00:39. > :00:47.Are my allowed to change my results by don't like them?!
:00:48. > :00:49.Also tonight, as A-level students get their results,
:00:50. > :00:53.what kind of higher education system is waiting for them?
:00:54. > :00:55.I don't want to rain on kids' parades today,
:00:56. > :00:58.they're getting their A-level results and, you know, they've done
:00:59. > :01:03.really well, but the bottom line is I think the system is pretty broken.
:01:04. > :01:05.And in the week when we remembered Partition,
:01:06. > :01:07.is history too negative about the British Empire?
:01:08. > :01:17.This man thinks it's time for a reappraisal.
:01:18. > :01:23.Even pointing out that the scenes have become sadly familiar has
:01:24. > :01:28.This is the situation in Barcelona tonight,
:01:29. > :01:31.after it became the latest European city to be hit by the violence
:01:32. > :01:36.to which we have become so grimly accustomed.
:01:37. > :01:39.A van, driven at speed through crowds of tourists
:01:40. > :01:42.and locals on Las Ramblas, the city's most famous boulevard.
:01:43. > :01:47.Spanish police are treating the incident as terrorism and have
:01:48. > :02:02.It is unclear whether either was the driver of the van.
:02:03. > :02:03.Tonight, the so-called Islamic State claimed responsibility.
:02:04. > :02:06.If what happened does turn out to have been inspired
:02:07. > :02:09.by the terror network, it would be the first Islamist plot
:02:10. > :02:11.in Spain since the 2004 Madrid train bombing,
:02:12. > :02:13.We'll be live in Barcelona in a moment.
:02:14. > :02:33.It was just after 4pm when eight the van ploughed into a group of people
:02:34. > :02:36.on the central boulevard that runs through Barcelona. Tourists and
:02:37. > :02:41.local people took shelter in shops and judges as police began hunting
:02:42. > :02:45.for the driver. The authorities quickly said they were dealing with
:02:46. > :02:49.a terrorist attack and shuts down local Metro and train stations.
:02:50. > :02:52.There have been conflicting reports about the number of casualties.
:02:53. > :02:57.Government officials say 13 people have been killed and at least 100
:02:58. > :03:01.others have been injured. The Las Ramblas area is particularly popular
:03:02. > :03:05.with tourists because of its famous food market, bars and restaurants.
:03:06. > :03:10.It's still unclear how many people were involved in carrying out the
:03:11. > :03:15.attack, but government officials say two suspects have been arrested.
:03:16. > :03:18.Police have named one of the men as Driss Oukabir, who is alleged to
:03:19. > :03:25.have rented the van used in the attack. He's in his 20s and it is
:03:26. > :03:28.understood he was born Morocco. Vehicles have become the terrorist
:03:29. > :03:32.weapon of choice. In June, eight people died when three jihadist Rane
:03:33. > :03:39.van into pedestrians on London Bridge and then stabbed passers-by.
:03:40. > :03:42.12 people were killed in Germany in December 2016 when a Tunisian
:03:43. > :03:47.ploughed a track into a Christmas market. In the last few hours, so
:03:48. > :03:52.called Islamic State have claimed responsibility for the attack
:03:53. > :03:55.through their social media channels. Spanish authorities have been more
:03:56. > :04:01.than aware of the global threat posed by Isis. The 2004 Madrid train
:04:02. > :04:09.bombings remain the deadliest of attacks in Europe so far. 192 people
:04:10. > :04:12.died when an Al-Qaeda inspired cell planted explosive devices on a
:04:13. > :04:16.series of commuter trains. Since then, Spain has worked hard to
:04:17. > :04:21.identify the threaded faces from Islamist terror networks, concluding
:04:22. > :04:25.that another attack was inevitable. In June this year there was a core
:04:26. > :04:30.ward needed anti-terror operation between authorities in the UK, Spain
:04:31. > :04:33.and Germany. Six people were arrested for allegedly recruiting
:04:34. > :04:38.fighters and raising funds. According to documents seen by the
:04:39. > :04:41.El Pais newspaper, more than a thousand people are on the radar of
:04:42. > :04:47.Spanish police, more than 200 people are being investigated by the
:04:48. > :04:49.courts. Despite Spain's efforts to identify the unpredictable nature of
:04:50. > :04:52.international terrorism, tonight and other European city reels from the
:04:53. > :04:55.impact of a deadly attack. With me in the studio
:04:56. > :04:58.is Professor Peter Neumann. He's an expert on radicalisation
:04:59. > :04:59.and political violence at King's University and
:05:00. > :05:02.has advised the Catalan police on issues around security
:05:03. > :05:13.and terrorism. But first we are joined from
:05:14. > :05:17.Barcelona by Justin Calderon, an American who witnessed the aftermath
:05:18. > :05:24.of the attack today. What can you tell us about what you saw? Today
:05:25. > :05:30.was one of the saddest days in Spanish history recently. I was
:05:31. > :05:37.passed various videos from Catalan friends who witnessed the violence,
:05:38. > :05:44.people were mowed down on Las Ramblas, the most popular tourist
:05:45. > :05:49.avenue in Barcelona. Today is a grim day for Barcelona and for Spain, but
:05:50. > :05:55.many have come out in solidarity, people are donating blood, there are
:05:56. > :06:00.many volunteers lined up at two of the hospitals where the injured have
:06:01. > :06:06.been taken. What did you actually recall seeing, Justin? Myself, I
:06:07. > :06:15.live less than a calamitous away from Las Ramblas. -- less than a
:06:16. > :06:20.kilometre away. It is the most diverse area of Barcelona, there are
:06:21. > :06:26.many Muslims here. Indeed, myself, I went out and I spoke with people,
:06:27. > :06:33.and there was only a state of shock and terror as Las Ramblas quickly
:06:34. > :06:39.got the shutdown, and thereafter the rest of the centre of the city.
:06:40. > :06:43.There are reports that the driver of the van was weaving, trying to
:06:44. > :06:50.deliberately go for as many groups of people, can you give us any
:06:51. > :06:53.narrative on that? I cannot confirm that. What I can confirm is that
:06:54. > :07:00.there were many who were injured, not just in the centre, but on the
:07:01. > :07:04.sidewalks, so it does appear that he was swerving. Lastly, if you can,
:07:05. > :07:10.just briefly give us a pen picture of the area, described the area to
:07:11. > :07:15.viewers. Today it is shutdown, the centre of Barcelona, which is one of
:07:16. > :07:19.the most visited parts of Europe, is on complete shutdown. There is
:07:20. > :07:27.yellow tape across all of the main avenues in the centre part of the
:07:28. > :07:30.city. It is an shutdown. Justin Calderon, thanks for joining us from
:07:31. > :07:35.Barcelona. Professor Peter Neumann, you have worked with these people,
:07:36. > :07:42.why Barcelona, would you say? So Barcelona has been a hub of
:07:43. > :07:47.radicalisation and Saller thirst bridges for many years. There was a
:07:48. > :07:53.big plot in 2008, and that alerted the police to the possibility that
:07:54. > :07:57.this may happen in Catalonia, and they started to prepare themselves
:07:58. > :08:03.for this. They have been expecting this. Expecting it in what way? We
:08:04. > :08:08.go back to 2004, the last time there was an attack, so it has been well
:08:09. > :08:13.over a decade, hasn't it? And that was in Madrid, the Madrid bombings,
:08:14. > :08:20.but we have known for some time that Barcelona in particular has been a
:08:21. > :08:25.centre for jihadist preachers, they have attracted followers, it has
:08:26. > :08:28.also been a connecting tissue between France and North Africa, so
:08:29. > :08:33.a lot of people have been travelling through. There were dozens of
:08:34. > :08:39.arrests over the past at two years, so police was very aware of the
:08:40. > :08:43.possibility that people may be doing something in Barcelona itself, not
:08:44. > :08:47.least because Las Ramblas, during the summer, are such an attractive
:08:48. > :08:53.target. I am sure you have seen how, in other European cities - Brussels
:08:54. > :08:57.and parts of Paris - there has been a virtual lockdown. What has been
:08:58. > :09:01.the situation in the major Spanish cities, would you say? There has not
:09:02. > :09:05.been a major lockdown. In Barcelona at this point we do not know how
:09:06. > :09:11.many people were connected to this. We know about one, possibly two
:09:12. > :09:15.suspects that have been arrested. It is not clear whether this was
:09:16. > :09:18.carried out by a network or buy a very small group of purely inspired
:09:19. > :09:23.people who were acting essentially on their own. And are we seeing an
:09:24. > :09:29.ugly new tactic here? There are shades of the attack we witnessed in
:09:30. > :09:33.London, a suggestion that this was a vehicle veering from side to side,
:09:34. > :09:41.is this one of their new campaigns? Is clearly fits the pattern, and it
:09:42. > :09:44.started in Nice last year with the lorry attack, and Isis has been
:09:45. > :09:49.trying to promote this kind of attack for some time but was never
:09:50. > :09:54.quite successful. The December of 2014, we saw a number of attempted
:09:55. > :09:59.attacks on Christmas market in France which killed one or two
:10:00. > :10:04.people. The Nice happened, killing 86 people, and it caused a lot of
:10:05. > :10:08.enthusiasm amongst jihadist supporters, and it created a dynamic
:10:09. > :10:12.where people work copycat thing that kind of attack, it became very
:10:13. > :10:17.popular. It is because Isis have been pushed back in Raqqa? Now they
:10:18. > :10:22.have moved to the random sort of attack in European cities? I think
:10:23. > :10:26.it is part of the explanation. Since last year, we have seen Isis saying,
:10:27. > :10:31.don't come to the caliphate anymore. They used to say it was a duty to
:10:32. > :10:35.travel to the caliphate, but now they are saying, stay where you are,
:10:36. > :10:41.hit them where it hurts the most, which is at home. The logic behind
:10:42. > :10:44.it is an asymmetric attack. They are saying, you are attacking us where
:10:45. > :10:48.we are, we will attack you where you are. Peter Neumann, thank you for
:10:49. > :10:51.joining us this evening. It's one of the perennial
:10:52. > :10:53.stories of summer. Each August, A-level results day
:10:54. > :10:55.sparks scenes of joy and disappointment for teenagers
:10:56. > :10:57.across the country, before the scramble
:10:58. > :10:58.for university places begins. But today, things perhaps
:10:59. > :11:00.felt a little different. For one, the debate over tuition
:11:01. > :11:04.fees - at ?9,000 a year - was brought alive before
:11:05. > :11:06.the election, when the Labour Party made ditching them one
:11:07. > :11:11.of its flagship pledges. And today, we heard
:11:12. > :11:16.of an unprecedented buyers' market in clearing, with confirmed places
:11:17. > :11:19.down 2% on last year and many universities
:11:20. > :11:20.seeking students to fill their lecture
:11:21. > :11:23.halls from September. Beyond this, some have asked bigger
:11:24. > :11:27.questions about whether mass access to higher education
:11:28. > :11:29.is really the best thing Helen Thomas has been
:11:30. > :11:39.examining the picture. Results day was once irrelevant -
:11:40. > :11:46.to most of the country, at least. In the 1950s, less than 5% of
:11:47. > :11:49.young people went to university. These days, close to half
:11:50. > :11:51.of 18-year-olds And that's despite growing
:11:52. > :12:03.unease about the system. Fees of ?9,000 a year,
:12:04. > :12:07.interest rates of over 6% back at the centre of
:12:08. > :12:16.the political agenda. True, the total number of students
:12:17. > :12:18.accepted the university today fell slightly last year,
:12:19. > :12:21.but the percentage of English and Scottish 18-year-olds
:12:22. > :12:24.getting a university The simple critique
:12:25. > :12:29.is that high fees discourage people from
:12:30. > :12:33.going to university, and that just doesn't
:12:34. > :12:37.appear to be true. Loans that are only paid back
:12:38. > :12:39.when future earnings hit a certain level have
:12:40. > :12:41.worked in that regard. The bigger question
:12:42. > :12:44.is whether shovelling more and more students into the university system
:12:45. > :12:49.is the right thing to do. Are the students still
:12:50. > :12:52.getting value for money? And are more and more
:12:53. > :12:57.university graduates what the country and the economy
:12:58. > :12:59.really needs? Well, I don't want to rain
:13:00. > :13:02.on kids' parades today. They are getting their
:13:03. > :13:04.A-level results today and they've done really well,
:13:05. > :13:06.but the bottom line is, We've got one in two 18-year-olds
:13:07. > :13:10.now going to university. They are coming out,
:13:11. > :13:12.average debt is about ?57,000. Their chances of
:13:13. > :13:15.getting a job that is going to pay them enough to repay
:13:16. > :13:19.that debt, very small. Very few are going to get graduate
:13:20. > :13:22.level jobs, as we know them. And on top of that, you've
:13:23. > :13:25.got a black hole in the public finances because the
:13:26. > :13:27.Government is lending money It's a system that
:13:28. > :13:31.doesn't work for anyone. The Institute for Fiscal Studies
:13:32. > :13:35.found that graduates do earn more than non-graduates,
:13:36. > :13:40.the so-called graduate premium. And non-graduates were twice
:13:41. > :13:42.as likely to have But they found big
:13:43. > :13:47.differences to those returns between different institutions
:13:48. > :13:52.and between different subjects. The graduate earnings premium
:13:53. > :13:56.continues to be robust and obviously it's an average,
:13:57. > :14:01.and you are right to say, to draw attention to the fact
:14:02. > :14:04.that there are some courses which are not delivering
:14:05. > :14:06.those kind of returns. And that is why as a
:14:07. > :14:08.government, we are working very hard to make sure
:14:09. > :14:11.students have the capacity for informed choices,
:14:12. > :14:13.so they know where the returns are good, they know where
:14:14. > :14:15.graduate outcomes are good. If students need to be
:14:16. > :14:17.more discerning, could the same be said of
:14:18. > :14:21.universities as well? Fees now account for about half
:14:22. > :14:25.of university funding, up from maybe a third before
:14:26. > :14:28.the last hike in fees. That has led to a scramble
:14:29. > :14:30.for some institutions At the moment, universities
:14:31. > :14:33.are really engaged in what has been called
:14:34. > :14:36.a race to the bottom. They are taking students with less
:14:37. > :14:39.than two E grades at A-level, putting them onto
:14:40. > :14:42.university degree courses. And that's just
:14:43. > :14:45.a disaster, because these students
:14:46. > :14:47.are not going to succeed. Dropout rates at universities
:14:48. > :14:50.are rising and every time a student drops out, that's
:14:51. > :14:55.a personal tragedy. Some think the UK system has just
:14:56. > :14:58.lost sight of the fact that university is not or should
:14:59. > :15:00.not be for everyone. And that other options
:15:01. > :15:02.like vocational courses or apprenticeships have
:15:03. > :15:09.been squeezed out. I don't think as a country, we need
:15:10. > :15:12.more university students, no. I have felt for a long
:15:13. > :15:14.time that we have made a terrible mistake in
:15:15. > :15:15.this Whereas pretty much everyone else
:15:16. > :15:25.in the world has more than one type of higher
:15:26. > :15:27.education institution, we have decided to put all our eggs
:15:28. > :15:29.into a university So basically, if at 18 you want
:15:30. > :15:37.to do some further study, you can go to a university
:15:38. > :15:39.or you can go to university. You can do a three-year
:15:40. > :15:42.degree or you can do a It's something the Government
:15:43. > :15:46.is trying to change, upping both the provision and the prestige
:15:47. > :15:49.of technical and vocational courses. More options could be
:15:50. > :15:51.better for the next generation of students
:15:52. > :15:52.and the David Willets was Universities
:15:53. > :15:55.Minister when the Coalition He's now a Conservative peer
:15:56. > :16:02.and joins us from Southampton. Amatey Doku is Vice Chair
:16:03. > :16:07.of the National Union of Students. And Sir David Bell
:16:08. > :16:09.is the Vice Chancellor He was previously the senior
:16:10. > :16:21.civil servant in the Nick Timothy, the Prime Minister's
:16:22. > :16:24.former Chief of Staff, wrote in the Daily Telegraph today that
:16:25. > :16:30.effectively, this has become a Ponzi scheme. This is not offering value,
:16:31. > :16:35.calling for radical reform and is unsustainable and ultimately
:16:36. > :16:38.Pointless, how accurate is he? I do not agree with Nick and that's
:16:39. > :16:41.because the Government of course does provide money to the students
:16:42. > :16:46.when they go to university and expects them to pay back if they are
:16:47. > :16:49.in well-paid jobs and the economic evidence is still pretty clear that
:16:50. > :16:54.on average, being a graduate is going to earn you more than being a
:16:55. > :16:58.non-graduate. Setting aside economic gains, the broadening of your
:16:59. > :17:01.horizons as the kind of experience you have during those three years
:17:02. > :17:06.that she up for life. I am a believer in more people going to
:17:07. > :17:08.university, it has worked well for Britain and individuals. Of course
:17:09. > :17:15.there have to be a range of other options as well, but Bush and people
:17:16. > :17:18.getting good A-level grades today and going forward university have a
:17:19. > :17:21.good chance of three years to transform their lives for the
:17:22. > :17:26.better. Yes, good luck to them, you say it is good for those people but
:17:27. > :17:30.a recent report shows a third of graduates are in jobs where they did
:17:31. > :17:34.not need the degree in the first place, how'd you justify that?
:17:35. > :17:39.During their 20s, especially since the crash, there has been a slower
:17:40. > :17:44.process of younger people getting promotion and moving on and up in
:17:45. > :17:47.the jobs ladder. However, in eight of the jobs market, it makes going
:17:48. > :17:52.to university and being a graduate even more important -- in a jobs
:17:53. > :17:56.market. Non-graduate jobs, when you look closely, maybe the jobs
:17:57. > :17:59.themselves have become more technically demanding, maybe the
:18:00. > :18:03.regulations have become more own arrest and the level of equipment
:18:04. > :18:07.you have to deal with is more sophisticated. There does seem to be
:18:08. > :18:11.a process around Western countries where jobs do become graduate jobs
:18:12. > :18:15.and that is not necessarily a bad thing and that may tell you
:18:16. > :18:22.something about how economy -- the Comey has advanced. The fees and now
:18:23. > :18:26.?9,000, is the education nine times better and what is the interest
:18:27. > :18:31.charged on the money? I will be frank about this, there were lots of
:18:32. > :18:37.reasons for putting in the fees at 9,000 and I was involved in that. It
:18:38. > :18:40.was partly that we could see that universities had been underfunded
:18:41. > :18:45.and students had been in crowded seminars, in dilapidated building
:18:46. > :18:50.does buildings, with a lack of access to equipment for technical
:18:51. > :18:54.courses and we needed to boost the resource of going to university and
:18:55. > :18:57.no government could do that by putting in more public spending. How
:18:58. > :19:02.comfortable are you with 6%, that is a lot of money? It is not money for
:19:03. > :19:08.the students, they do not pay upfront. But ultimately, come on!
:19:09. > :19:14.What matters is graduates pay back at 9% of their earnings of ?21,000 a
:19:15. > :19:19.year, that is the crucial figure. For many graduates, above a high
:19:20. > :19:25.threshold, their income tax rate which is all taken out, not like a
:19:26. > :19:29.mortgage or a credit card debt, is 29%, not 20%. That is a big change
:19:30. > :19:33.in the British labour market but nothing like young people having
:19:34. > :19:39.overdrafts or credit card debt, it is not that kind of debt. Some of
:19:40. > :19:44.these vice chancellors, they like Premier League football players,
:19:45. > :19:46.451,000 for a vice Chancellor at the University of Bath, hundreds of
:19:47. > :19:51.thousands of pounds, is it sustainable and justifiable? I can
:19:52. > :19:57.see that those examples are egregious and I can see the anger
:19:58. > :20:01.that has broken out. But keeping it in proportion, and you are who
:20:02. > :20:09.started this, there is about 100 vice chancellors and Adonis thinks
:20:10. > :20:15.they are each earning too much, that is ?10 million. Fees bring in ?11
:20:16. > :20:20.million a year to educate our students and to deprive them of that
:20:21. > :20:23.because she think ?10 million badly spent, would be letting the tail
:20:24. > :20:29.work the dog, it is not proportionate. How much is too much?
:20:30. > :20:33.Should they be paid more than the Prime Minister? Universities are not
:20:34. > :20:35.part of the public sector, they are charitable institutions and they
:20:36. > :20:40.have to have rigorous assessment of the pay, but the level of vice
:20:41. > :20:45.Chancellor pay is not a reason for changing a system delivering over a
:20:46. > :20:50.million students and bring in billions into our higher system.
:20:51. > :20:54.What figure is egregious? One of the good features of our universities is
:20:55. > :21:02.they are an autonomous body so I will not tell universities. Is
:21:03. > :21:08.?250,000 egregious? A simple yes or no. We do not run them from
:21:09. > :21:11.Whitehall. There are countries where politicians decide pay rates at
:21:12. > :21:15.universities and bank happens England is not one of them. You
:21:16. > :21:20.brought him the word egregious, there must be a figure. Do I go to
:21:21. > :21:23.?300,000 question what people will have a personal view but it is
:21:24. > :21:28.important for universities that the pay rates are determined
:21:29. > :21:36.professionally with remuneration arrangements and it is not for me to
:21:37. > :21:38.tell universities about pay rates. I think universities are autonomous
:21:39. > :21:44.and that should be respected. Thank you for your time. The National
:21:45. > :21:49.Union of Teachers. You believe all fees should be scrapped, am I right?
:21:50. > :21:55.That is a noble initiative. How do we pay for it? First of all, I want
:21:56. > :21:59.to congratulate the students who got A-level results today, they did
:22:00. > :22:02.really good and important they are coming to our universities.
:22:03. > :22:06.Unfortunately, they will be saddled with a lot of debt. As David
:22:07. > :22:10.Willetts made very clear, there was a problem with the underfunding of
:22:11. > :22:14.universities and somebody has to pay for it and it is completely
:22:15. > :22:18.unacceptable to say this has to be forced on the individual student.
:22:19. > :22:21.Generations of young people are thought to be worse off than their
:22:22. > :22:25.parents and it should be paid through progressive taxation. The
:22:26. > :22:28.idea there was no money left was blown open at this election and we
:22:29. > :22:33.saw Theresa May say there was no money left and they found quite a
:22:34. > :22:37.lot of money for the DUP. The conversation has now shifted. A lot
:22:38. > :22:41.of people see young people set of to be worse off than their parents and
:22:42. > :22:45.there are a load of options we can look into. He/she were facing now is
:22:46. > :22:51.the Government is not willing to concede there is a problem with the
:22:52. > :22:56.system -- the issue we are facing. Everything is fine and it is OK
:22:57. > :23:00.young people are coming out of university with higher debt. We do
:23:01. > :23:07.not think that is right and we think society as a whole should pay for
:23:08. > :23:11.higher education is a public good. You vice Chancellor of the
:23:12. > :23:15.University of Reading and it is a buyers' market, you are at the coal
:23:16. > :23:21.face, how accurate is that description? Students have much more
:23:22. > :23:24.choice than ever before and the removal of the numbers of students
:23:25. > :23:27.has made the system more competitive. That is good for
:23:28. > :23:33.students. They have much more choice. Is it good for universities?
:23:34. > :23:38.I think so. I thought there were scrabbling around to get people. It
:23:39. > :23:41.enables universities to think about what it is they offer prospective
:23:42. > :23:45.students, students are more demanding and selective and it is
:23:46. > :23:49.important that we do provide what it is they expect to get a good
:23:50. > :23:54.education. I was trying to get Lord Willetts to talk about a figure that
:23:55. > :23:59.might be egregious. I understand you are paid around ?264,000 per annum,
:24:00. > :24:04.is that egregious? It is not for me to judge, the decisions about my pay
:24:05. > :24:08.made by independent members of the university governing body, the stain
:24:09. > :24:14.-- the same situation applies around the country. It is for them to make
:24:15. > :24:20.the decisions about what is appropriate. But how has it worked
:24:21. > :24:24.out? Reading is a high-flying university, you are 27th, well done.
:24:25. > :24:28.If we look at the pay packets, you are considerably higher up, you
:24:29. > :24:33.Steve Bruce at Aston Villa earning the money of Arsene Wenger at
:24:34. > :24:37.Arsenal, why? It is not for me to judge what is an appropriate level,
:24:38. > :24:40.that is for the independent members of university governing bodies and
:24:41. > :24:45.they will take account of a variety of factors including the relative
:24:46. > :24:48.pay of vice chancellors compared to others around the world, they will
:24:49. > :24:54.take account of the responsibilities we have. And we are running a major
:24:55. > :24:58.enterprises. Finally, we have studied the courses available,
:24:59. > :25:02.?9,000 to study food marketing at Reading University, what will a
:25:03. > :25:07.student loan? They learnt a lot that is valuable. The food industry in
:25:08. > :25:11.this country employs over 2.5 million people and their great jobs
:25:12. > :25:15.available in marketing around the food industry. That is something I
:25:16. > :25:18.want to bring to you in on, we heard from Lord Willetts that with the
:25:19. > :25:22.pressure now in the job market, young people have to and get these
:25:23. > :25:26.degrees or they are really handicapping themselves. You are at
:25:27. > :25:30.the coal face of that, would you agree? I would encourage a lot of
:25:31. > :25:36.people to go to university but it is about options. National union of
:25:37. > :25:39.students represents over 7 million students. Across higher education
:25:40. > :25:43.and further education. Further education are in the majority and I
:25:44. > :25:47.think many people within NUS would agree they are not often seen on a
:25:48. > :25:50.par with higher education and it is really important young people come
:25:51. > :25:54.out of school and they have options which are valued by society is
:25:55. > :26:00.equal. Student struggling in some cases to pay these fees and these
:26:01. > :26:03.loans, are you going to give me a figure that is egregious? Should
:26:04. > :26:07.vice chancellors be making this sort of money? I am not going to get
:26:08. > :26:12.drawn into this. Why will nobody give me this? It is quite difficult
:26:13. > :26:15.for students to see these high figures at a time when they are
:26:16. > :26:19.having to take on a lot of debt, at a time when the vice chancellors
:26:20. > :26:23.have done little to prevent is going down this road. That issue needs to
:26:24. > :26:27.be dealt with, but it is not the only issue and it will not solve the
:26:28. > :26:30.current funding crisis in our education. Thank you and good luck
:26:31. > :26:31.with your students, and good luck with getting the students into your
:26:32. > :26:33.university. The German election
:26:34. > :26:36.is a little over a month away. At this stage, it looks
:26:37. > :26:38.like Angela Merkel is probably on course to win her fourth term
:26:39. > :26:42.as Chancellor and for her CDU Party But it has been a turbulent few
:26:43. > :26:46.years for Mrs Merkel. Her decision to open the borders
:26:47. > :26:49.in 2015 saw more than a million refugees enter Germany,
:26:50. > :26:50.putting her under pressure and sparking a debate on how
:26:51. > :26:55.to handle the crisis. In the background, a new threat
:26:56. > :26:58.for the centre-right CDU has emerged from the populist right Alternative
:26:59. > :27:01.for Germany Party. Formed in 2013, support
:27:02. > :27:04.for its hardline, anti-immigration messages allowed it to win seats
:27:05. > :27:07.at local elections at the height Recent infighting and a row
:27:08. > :27:14.over how to remember the Nazis has pushed it back,
:27:15. > :27:19.but a poll this week suggested the AfD might win as much as 10%
:27:20. > :27:23.of the vote in September - enough to make it the third biggest
:27:24. > :27:25.party in parliament. Gabriel Gatehouse has been
:27:26. > :27:27.in Hamburg to ask what's This isn't the kind of place you'd
:27:28. > :27:46.expect a political crime mystery. But there have been sinister
:27:47. > :27:50.goings-on in this little village, population 800-odd, about an hour's
:27:51. > :27:55.drive north of Hamburg. Last September, the Mayor called
:27:56. > :28:01.a meeting of the local council. He suggested they house a refugee
:28:02. > :28:03.family in the village. So, everyone was inside the village
:28:04. > :28:09.hall for this meeting, including some police officers,
:28:10. > :28:11.because the Mayor had already Now, he popped out to get his laptop
:28:12. > :28:19.from his car, which was parked round the corner here,
:28:20. > :28:21.and that's where the attacker The Mayor was struck from behind
:28:22. > :28:29.with a blunt object. He later recovered, but couldn't
:28:30. > :28:34.identify the assailant. The residents of
:28:35. > :28:38.Oersdorf are on edge. Beyond Oersdorf, the towns
:28:39. > :29:07.of Schleswig-Holstein are home to a relatively small number
:29:08. > :29:10.of refugees, compared Chancellor Merkel has backed away
:29:11. > :29:17.from her open-door policy. But the effects of that summer
:29:18. > :29:27.are still felt today. The biggest political winner has
:29:28. > :29:31.been Alternative For Germany, or AfD, a right-wing party founded
:29:32. > :29:35.only four years ago that could become the third-largest
:29:36. > :29:41.in the Bundestag. They invited us to one
:29:42. > :29:43.of their events, with their deputy leader,
:29:44. > :29:50.Beatrix von Storch. Frau von Storch is descended
:29:51. > :29:55.from European aristocracy and, if enough British Royals suddenly
:29:56. > :29:57.dropped dead, could conceivably move But behind the sausages
:29:58. > :30:07.and the joviality, their posters tell a different story,
:30:08. > :30:12.with barely concealed nationalistic references to German
:30:13. > :30:14.ethnicity and homeland. This may look pretty tame,
:30:15. > :30:20.but it's hard to overstate how radical it feels in the German
:30:21. > :30:22.context to have these kinds of placards -
:30:23. > :30:25.the words Deutschland, Heimat, homeland -
:30:26. > :30:33.at a political rally. Germany's always footing
:30:34. > :30:40.the bill, they say. But most of all, they talk
:30:41. > :30:46.about Islam and immigration. When did you start getting
:30:47. > :30:49.interested in this party? Oh, it was when Mrs Merkel
:30:50. > :30:53.opened the borders. She thinks she's the Queen
:30:54. > :31:01.of Germany, or what. Beatrix von Storch has, in the past,
:31:02. > :31:12.suggested using armed force against child migrants
:31:13. > :31:16.at Germany's borders. I put it to her that her party's
:31:17. > :31:19.posters were dog whistles Er, we are saying Islam does
:31:20. > :31:24.not belong to Germany, which is a historical fact,
:31:25. > :31:27.and we're making very clear we don't want to move towards a society
:31:28. > :31:29.which is more and more I don't think you can call
:31:30. > :31:51.that the way you just called it. You have got to posters, one says
:31:52. > :31:56.our homeland, the other says new Germans, we will make them
:31:57. > :32:04.ourselves, a very obviously pregnant white woman. How is that not hinting
:32:05. > :32:05.at a much darker slogan from a previous era, which was blood and
:32:06. > :32:07.soil? I mean, it's very normal
:32:08. > :32:11.what we're saying. And I'm just saying we don't
:32:12. > :32:13.want to have the reproduction of our country done only by others,
:32:14. > :32:25.or by migration, And can you understand why, given
:32:26. > :32:26.generally's history, some people are worried about that?
:32:27. > :32:30.Because you can't ask us to not be linked to our country.
:32:31. > :32:33.Or to ask us to - you have to give up your sovereignty,
:32:34. > :32:36.you have to take in migration, millions and even more millions
:32:37. > :32:39.to come because of your history, you have to give up your culture.
:32:40. > :32:49.Any kind of win for the AfD would be unprecedented for Germany,
:32:50. > :32:52.the first time since the end of the Nazi era that an overtly
:32:53. > :32:56.nationalist party has a presence in the German Parliament.
:32:57. > :33:01.Those who support the AfD are not necessarily those who are,
:33:02. > :33:04.um, socially deprived, but those who are anxious
:33:05. > :33:14.The idea that voters, that they have no influence
:33:15. > :33:17.in politics and that they cannot trust the political establishment
:33:18. > :33:21.in Germany, and that the AfD - as the name suggests -
:33:22. > :33:27.The day after the rally, we went to see Jutta Brendel -
:33:28. > :33:32.at her home in a commuters' suburb of Hamburg.
:33:33. > :33:35.She and her husband once voted for the centre-left.
:33:36. > :33:39.Now they say all the mainstream parties are the same.
:33:40. > :33:42.But she admits her support for the right-wing AfD is not
:33:43. > :33:46.without its qualms about the darkest chapter in German history -
:33:47. > :33:54.There are still, still people in Germany,
:33:55. > :34:03.they have brown suits in the cellar. Sure.
:34:04. > :34:11.If you are acknowledged that there are people in the AFP, maybe not all
:34:12. > :34:14.but some, who want to pull Germany back in this Nazi direction, doesn't
:34:15. > :34:15.that make you feel very uncomfortable?
:34:16. > :34:18.But, you see, um, I have no other chance in this
:34:19. > :34:29.Not all Germans are fearful of refugees and migrants.
:34:30. > :34:35.The AfD knows it'll not end up in government,
:34:36. > :34:39.no matter what happens in the election, but with seats
:34:40. > :34:41.in Parliament, it will be in a strong position
:34:42. > :34:47.to shift the German political mainstream to the right.
:34:48. > :34:49.It was the 70th anniversary of Partition earlier this week.
:34:50. > :34:52.You may have noticed - the BBC produced a lot of output
:34:53. > :34:55.about the events which preceded and followed the decision in 1947
:34:56. > :34:58.to split British India into the separate nations
:34:59. > :35:06.Newsnight dedicated its entire programme to the subject on Tuesday,
:35:07. > :35:09.but since then, some have questioned whether too much emphasis
:35:10. > :35:11.has been put on the negative aspects of empire.
:35:12. > :35:14.Writing in the Daily Mail today, the columnist Stephen Glover
:35:15. > :35:17.accused Newsnight of indulging in an "orgy of self-flaggelation"
:35:18. > :35:21.and of failing to reflect the good that British rule did.
:35:22. > :35:23.So is our memory of history clouded by an over-eagerness
:35:24. > :35:31.that some believe came with the rough?
:35:32. > :35:34.And also back with us is Professor Joya Chatterji,
:35:35. > :35:41.one of the historians from our panel on Tuesday.
:35:42. > :35:47.Stephen, thank you for coming in. Why would have you been so upset
:35:48. > :35:53.with how the Empire has been portrayed not just here about Don
:35:54. > :35:56.Mike Butt across the spectrum? It is British India we are talking about,
:35:57. > :36:02.and again and again it is suggested that the British were primarily, if
:36:03. > :36:05.not exclusively responsible for the millions odd people who died after
:36:06. > :36:10.Partition, when in fact the British are tried. Years to broker a deal
:36:11. > :36:20.between the Muslim league and the Hindu dominated Congress. And the
:36:21. > :36:28.head of the Muslim league did not want to come to an agreement. The
:36:29. > :36:31.major politicians did not want Partition to happen, and the British
:36:32. > :36:37.were left on the sidelines. You don't believe it was a nation that
:36:38. > :36:46.was in any way subjugated, then? It had been subjugated. In quite brutal
:36:47. > :36:52.fashion. The Buccaneers who started it would not have been recognised by
:36:53. > :36:57.the rather high-minded incorruptible officials who put it to bed. So when
:36:58. > :37:02.you talk about the Empire, you talk about a huge, diverse enterprise
:37:03. > :37:06.involving many people, but in the end I don't think in the instead
:37:07. > :37:10.feel subjugated, no. Another thing to remember is that only about
:37:11. > :37:15.100,000 British officials and soldiers were present in the country
:37:16. > :37:24.of well over 300 million people, and many Indians never saw a white face.
:37:25. > :37:30.Professor, any thing positive about the British in India? I don't want
:37:31. > :37:36.to reduce it into that kind positive or negative, railways and cricket
:37:37. > :37:41.against subjugation, it is more complex than that. I take on board
:37:42. > :37:45.the point is that Stephen Glover has made, that there wasn't necessarily
:37:46. > :37:49.always and intent on the part of Britons to do evil things to
:37:50. > :37:55.Indians. That there was a great deal of Indian involvement in certain
:37:56. > :37:58.ranks with the project of empire. Where does the blame live for the
:37:59. > :38:07.deaths that happened after Partition, the hands of the British?
:38:08. > :38:12.I think it is divided. The fact that there was an ignominious scuttle for
:38:13. > :38:16.which not adequate preparation was made has to be recognised and is
:38:17. > :38:22.widely recognised by historians. You did write that in your article, the
:38:23. > :38:27.Viceroy raised through it too quickly. Yes, he arrived in India in
:38:28. > :38:35.March, and it was independent four or five months later. It did happen
:38:36. > :38:39.too quickly. There was tremendous pressure from the Congress party,
:38:40. > :38:44.they wanted to get on with it. But there is no question the British
:38:45. > :38:51.were moving too quickly. Coming back to you, professor, is
:38:52. > :38:54.there too much ignorance about the role of the British in India? Too
:38:55. > :39:00.much like of knowledge among British schoolchildren? Absolutely. I think
:39:01. > :39:09.that is part of the reason why we are having this sort of debate, in
:39:10. > :39:12.which we are actually having a pro versus con Empire debate. We need to
:39:13. > :39:15.have a better understanding in which young British people can face up to
:39:16. > :39:25.what this is Terry was... Can they be proud of the Empire? I would not
:39:26. > :39:31.say that, no. I have kind of got to do that point! Stephen? There are
:39:32. > :39:37.lots of positives, and negatives as well, but as I said in that piece,
:39:38. > :39:41.George Orwell, who was no friend of the empire at all, noted in the
:39:42. > :39:46.1930s that if you look at a map of Asia, most of the railways were in
:39:47. > :39:51.India, and when we left, the British left, there were about 40,000 miles
:39:52. > :39:56.of railways, there was a democratic apparatus, a free and robust
:39:57. > :40:02.press... You are shaking your head. And quite a robust economy, India
:40:03. > :40:06.was a major economy. Cluttering your eyes, Professor! First of all, those
:40:07. > :40:14.railways were paid for by Indian taxpayers in their entirety, built
:40:15. > :40:22.to serve British interests, and they were not useful for the... After
:40:23. > :40:26.independence. They were not useful for the Indian economy, which was
:40:27. > :40:30.subjugated to British interests, absolutely not, and the point is
:40:31. > :40:37.that the idea that India was turned into this flourishing economy could
:40:38. > :40:41.not be further from the truth. From 1867, between 1867 and 1900, you
:40:42. > :40:46.have 20 million deaths from famine. I must leave the words to you,
:40:47. > :40:51.Stephen, do you feel proud of the British Empire and British India?
:40:52. > :40:54.The British have some reason to feel pride for what they did, and I think
:40:55. > :41:01.a lot of Indians recognised that, and India is on its way to being a
:41:02. > :41:06.superpower. We should be happy about that too. No famines since
:41:07. > :41:09.independence! But a lot of starvation. That is it for tonight.
:41:10. > :41:12.But before we go, we've been marking the Proms season with some live
:41:13. > :41:15.Tonight, it's the BBC Singers with conductor Sofi Jeannin
:41:16. > :41:19.They'll be at the Royal Albert Hall on Sunday.
:41:20. > :43:03.We're going to get some wet weather developing overnight and pushing
:43:04. > :43:07.across northern parts of the UK, quite a wet start in Scotland, that