:00:10. > :00:18.The last solar eclipse to be seen on this continent in this century and
:00:19. > :00:19.not until August the 21st, 2017, will an eclipse be visible from
:00:20. > :00:22.North America,. That day was today -
:00:23. > :00:24.the Great American Eclipse. Millions turned their faces
:00:25. > :00:34.to the sky - from Donald Trump Millions turned their faces to the
:00:35. > :00:36.sky. Why is this awe inspiring,
:00:37. > :00:38.but rational mathematical event And does it have any
:00:39. > :00:41.scientific value? We speak to Nasa's director
:00:42. > :00:43.of planetary science. In just over three hours,
:00:44. > :00:46.Donald Trump is due to make a major speech on military
:00:47. > :00:52.policy on Afghanistan. And I am in Afghanistan as President
:00:53. > :00:53.Trump reveals his new strategy for the war in Afghanistan.
:00:54. > :00:55.We speak to the US's former Ambassador to Afghanistan.
:00:56. > :00:58.After Grenfell - tonight we are finally getting some clarity
:00:59. > :01:01.on how big a safety problem has been uncovered
:01:02. > :01:07.The government now knows of more than 200 high-rises fitted
:01:08. > :01:12.with cladding that does not meet our fire rules.
:01:13. > :01:19.A pulverised city, Isis fighters still hiding out in pockets.
:01:20. > :01:21.Can traumatised residents, and returning refugees
:01:22. > :01:37.This is what liberation looks like. Iraq's second-largest city, just
:01:38. > :01:38.ruins. The bulk of the city is completely destroyed and devastated.
:01:39. > :01:43.There is nothing left. Millions across the United States
:01:44. > :01:50.witnessed the Great American From the Oregon coast
:01:51. > :01:55.to Charleston in South Carolina, people gathered in sport stadiums
:01:56. > :01:58.and on beaches and city roofs as the country
:01:59. > :02:00.was plunged into darkness, coast to coast, for the first
:02:01. > :02:07.time in 100 years. It was said to be the most
:02:08. > :02:10.documented such event in history. Centuries ago, an eclipse
:02:11. > :02:13.was everything from a divine warning The ancient Chinese thought the sun
:02:14. > :02:17.had been eaten by a dragon. No matter the rational explanation,
:02:18. > :02:20.it is still for many an extraordinary moment,
:02:21. > :02:22.when we realise we are just So what's the draw,
:02:23. > :02:27.and can we actually learn We'll hear from Nasa in a moment,
:02:28. > :02:50.but first here's Stephen Smith. I have seen grown men cry at solar
:02:51. > :02:54.eclipses. Across a great swathe of America, and in a break from the
:02:55. > :03:01.norm, people have been taking a holiday and rushing to get out of
:03:02. > :03:05.the sun. A shadow cast by a once-in-a-lifetime solar eclipse.
:03:06. > :03:13.For once, the president did not seem to mind being put in the shade. For
:03:14. > :03:17.90 minutes the eclipse tracked east over 14 states, from one American
:03:18. > :03:22.seaboard to the other, before heading out over the Atlantic. If
:03:23. > :03:27.the eclipse is a highlight in the calendar, consider the men and women
:03:28. > :03:32.who devote themselves to studying solar activity. For then it is a
:03:33. > :03:38.real day in the sun, or rather shadow. I am working on how the sun
:03:39. > :03:42.shines and we keep making progress and understanding how the sun
:03:43. > :03:47.shines, but there are gaps and it is exciting to be outside and have the
:03:48. > :03:53.universe dark and and have this fabulous stuff go on in the sky. The
:03:54. > :03:57.view outside is fabulous. We have tried for a long time to explain
:03:58. > :04:06.this to people and my conclusion is you have to see it to believe it. It
:04:07. > :04:10.is unbelievable. On a red day like this, our earthbound concerns seem
:04:11. > :04:15.suspended and it is possible to sense the war and terror our
:04:16. > :04:25.ancestors must have felt at a celestial event like this -- awe.
:04:26. > :04:31.Not until August the 21st 2017 will another eclipse be visible, 38 years
:04:32. > :04:36.from now. Maybe shadow of the moon fall on a world of peace. ABC News
:04:37. > :04:43.will bring you a report on the next eclipse. Even better, this is Evan
:04:44. > :04:49.Davis on the spot in his eclipse chasing talks. A few observations.
:04:50. > :04:52.The sound changes. Dogs start barking. We heard a cow in the
:04:53. > :04:59.distance and the insect noise changes. Huge temperature drop. We
:05:00. > :05:05.have been in the burning heat, 94 degrees in American money, and
:05:06. > :05:13.suddenly it begins to cool down and become cool. Perhaps the most
:05:14. > :05:20.exciting, just at the edge of the eclipse, as you look at the sun, you
:05:21. > :05:25.catch a bead, which is the sun catching behind the hills and
:05:26. > :05:30.valleys of the craters on the moon. You are seeing the sun deemed behind
:05:31. > :05:37.the rough surface of the moon, as the shadow passes. It is really
:05:38. > :05:41.extraordinary. They are calling this the American eclipse. At a
:05:42. > :05:47.particular American moment. I suppose we do now have a president
:05:48. > :05:57.who really enjoys being the centre of attention. And finds it hard to
:05:58. > :06:02.be eclipsed, if you will. I found something maybe a little funny, that
:06:03. > :06:10.we have moment here where we really are, as Americans, celestial li
:06:11. > :06:16.required to look at something else, to look at something larger and
:06:17. > :06:20.think of ourselves as members of the planet. Others say today is a
:06:21. > :06:25.reminder of what man now understands about the heavens. I have heard
:06:26. > :06:30.people say they are reminded of the awe of things but I think the
:06:31. > :06:35.opposite, that it shows humans have been able to understand the workings
:06:36. > :06:39.and predict this and understand how the stars shine with these details
:06:40. > :06:43.we are trying to improve. This brings the universe to us and
:06:44. > :06:45.humanises our son shows we can understand it.
:06:46. > :06:48.I'm joined from Idaho Falls by Nasa planetary science director
:06:49. > :06:51.And from Wyoming by David Baron, the author
:06:52. > :07:07.Good evening. I can see David Baron in bright sunshine but Jim Greene,
:07:08. > :07:13.you look happy. What was it like the experience? It is the first one I
:07:14. > :07:19.have ever seen but I have to tell you there was not a cloud in the sky
:07:20. > :07:27.and it got dark and it was just beautiful. What did you learn? You
:07:28. > :07:33.have the awe and wonder, but what immediately are you learning from a
:07:34. > :07:39.scientific perspective? Nasa has an array of instruments we tested, some
:07:40. > :07:46.from planes, others from balloons we launched. We launched 57 balloons
:07:47. > :07:51.along the path. They went up to more than 100,000 feet. We performed a
:07:52. > :08:02.variety of experiments. What will that tell us and help us, that we do
:08:03. > :08:08.not know now? I had as a planetary scientist and experiment. A
:08:09. > :08:16.principal investigator David Smith had bacteria we put on two coupons.
:08:17. > :08:21.One on the ground and one on the balloon and we did it to 30
:08:22. > :08:28.balloons. We went to 100,000 feet. The reason we put the bacteria on
:08:29. > :08:34.it, and it is a hardy, harmless bug, but pervasive in this world, is that
:08:35. > :08:40.we wanted to see if it could survive the conditions. They were special
:08:41. > :08:44.conditions. At 100,000 feet you are above ozone and you get ultraviolet
:08:45. > :08:50.light. You also are at a temperature and pressure with the same
:08:51. > :09:00.conditions as on the surface of Mars. The concept is, camber bugs
:09:01. > :09:04.survive on the surface of Mars? David Baron, you have seen many
:09:05. > :09:09.eclipses and have a rational response in a sense, but for you it
:09:10. > :09:16.is still magical when you watch eclipses. Absolutely. I am a science
:09:17. > :09:21.writer and my background is in science, but chasing eclipses is
:09:22. > :09:25.about emotion. It is the most awe-inspiring spectacle anyone can
:09:26. > :09:32.have on this planet and I'd tell you everyone in their life owes it to
:09:33. > :09:37.themselves to see a total eclipse. After you have seen one you often
:09:38. > :09:44.want to see more. Why? We have a rational response to it but in years
:09:45. > :10:00.past it was seen to be a harbinger of doom, harbingers of happiness. We
:10:01. > :10:05.interview the -- we imbue it with meaning. In ancient times you see
:10:06. > :10:12.this beautiful shining ring of light and people were confused and even
:10:13. > :10:15.today. We know that all is going on is the moon passing between us and
:10:16. > :10:21.the sun but it messes with your head. It looks like no sky you have
:10:22. > :10:26.seen and it just connects you with universe like nothing else because
:10:27. > :10:30.you realise you are looking towards the centre of the solar system and
:10:31. > :10:38.you see with the naked eye what a beautiful object the sun is. It is
:10:39. > :10:42.not just a simple disc in the sky, it has like air. Beautiful tendrils
:10:43. > :10:45.coming off you can only see in a total eclipse. Thank you.
:10:46. > :10:49.It's being reported in the New York Times that
:10:50. > :10:51.in a major foreign policy speech tonight, President Trump
:10:52. > :10:53.will announce a new military push in Afghanistan.
:10:54. > :10:56.One that will put more American military boots on the ground -
:10:57. > :11:00.perhaps as many as 5,000 pairs - in order to ramp up the war
:11:01. > :11:02.against against the mainly Taliban insurgents who have been
:11:03. > :11:09.Trump has been accused by US lawmakers of dragging his heels
:11:10. > :11:12.over an intensification, and a kite was flown that
:11:13. > :11:15.suggested he might want mercenaries to do the job.
:11:16. > :11:18.But tonight, at Fort Myer in Virginia, he is expected
:11:19. > :11:20.to indicate the US military will be the ones
:11:21. > :11:23.We'll hear from a former American ambassador to Afghanistan
:11:24. > :11:28.First, I asked Secunder Kermani in Kabul what the security
:11:29. > :11:34.The levels of violence have been steadily increasing.
:11:35. > :11:38.And some of the statistics are really quite shocking.
:11:39. > :11:40.Last year for example there were nearly 3500 civilian
:11:41. > :11:46.And parts of the country that were previously
:11:47. > :11:49.considered quite safe, like Kabul, for example,
:11:50. > :11:54.Kabul has seen a number of high-profile, quite
:11:55. > :12:00.In fact, not too long ago there was a rocket attack
:12:01. > :12:07.And across the country the Afghan government only controls around
:12:08. > :12:15.Insurgent groups, that's mainly the Taliban, control just over 10%.
:12:16. > :12:18.And they contest nearly a third of the country.
:12:19. > :12:26.One of the criticisms in the past has been that President Obama did
:12:27. > :12:30.commit to sending large numbers of troops back in 2010, 2011,
:12:31. > :12:35.there was around 100,000 American soldiers here in Afghanistan.
:12:36. > :12:39.But he was also quite explicit in saying that he wanted America
:12:40. > :12:41.to withdraw from Afghanistan and set a date for that.
:12:42. > :12:44.And the argument goes that that encouraged
:12:45. > :12:48.the Taliban to effectively wait the Americans out.
:12:49. > :12:51.On the other hand it seems there is no real simple solution
:12:52. > :12:57.The crux of the problem seems to be that whilst many in Afghanistan
:12:58. > :12:59.and internationally believe that peace can only be achieved
:13:00. > :13:02.through some kind of negotiated settlement with the Taliban -
:13:03. > :13:04.because it is not going to be possible to defeat
:13:05. > :13:12.at the moment the Taliban do not really seem to have much
:13:13. > :13:14.of an incentive for coming to the table for talks
:13:15. > :13:17.because they feel they have got the momentum behind them.
:13:18. > :13:20.So what most analysts say needs to happen is there needs to be
:13:21. > :13:25.a greater level of military pressure exerted on the Taliban to encourage
:13:26. > :13:31.them to come and start meaningful negotiations.
:13:32. > :13:34.So how will Afghans take the news this evening of a kind of beefed
:13:35. > :13:40.Well we have to wait and see what exactly President Trump says
:13:41. > :13:44.but certainly the figures in the Afghan government that I have
:13:45. > :13:47.been talking to want to see more American troops here in Afghanistan.
:13:48. > :13:51.Although at the same time they are quite clear
:13:52. > :13:56.that they want to see them in that training and advisory role that most
:13:57. > :14:00.American soldiers are primarily in in Afghanistan at the moment.
:14:01. > :14:06.They want to see Afghan troops take the lead on the battlefield.
:14:07. > :14:09.What they want to see more of is they want greater access
:14:10. > :14:12.to American military technology and aerial capabilities.
:14:13. > :14:15.One thing that many in the Afghan government I think would be quite
:14:16. > :14:20.concerned about would be a greater role for private security firms
:14:21. > :14:22.which is meant to be one of the options that
:14:23. > :14:30.I think that would also cause a great deal of concern amongst many
:14:31. > :14:37.Zalmay Khalilzad is a former Ambassador to Afghanistan and US
:14:38. > :14:39.ambassador to the UN under George W Bush.
:14:40. > :14:54.Good evening Ambassador. Reports coming out of the US of increased
:14:55. > :15:00.troop deployment. Is that what you understand will happen? That is my
:15:01. > :15:07.understanding as well but we will have to wait and see until we hear
:15:08. > :15:13.from the President. He has inherited a difficult situation. He has been
:15:14. > :15:17.very deliberate taking his time, looking at the US objective going
:15:18. > :15:26.forward. Looking at alternative strategies. And we will see what the
:15:27. > :15:32.result is. I hope the strategy he announces will be comprehensive as
:15:33. > :15:37.the review has been. The word is it could be roughly about 5000 troops.
:15:38. > :15:42.Do you think that in this situation when the Taliban seems to be back on
:15:43. > :15:51.the front foot that 5000 US troops will be sufficient for the task? The
:15:52. > :15:57.question is what is the task. If the task is as military leaders say, to
:15:58. > :16:02.stop the momentum of the Taliban and also indicate unlike the previous
:16:03. > :16:08.administration in the US which set a timetable for reducing the forces
:16:09. > :16:12.that it had increased and was indicating it was anxious to get all
:16:13. > :16:19.troops out, which encouraged to tell about not to come to the negotiating
:16:20. > :16:25.table. That this increase plus giving more flexibility to the
:16:26. > :16:32.commanders to use the force as they see fit, plus pressure on Pakistan
:16:33. > :16:37.which is a diplomatic issue of great importance affecting Afghanistan,
:16:38. > :16:42.might change the Taliban calculus, the power -- the Pakistani calculus
:16:43. > :16:46.and therefore encourage negotiations. That is what the
:16:47. > :16:50.objective is and they believe that the troop numbers associated with
:16:51. > :16:56.the other things that I said could produce the results of a negotiated
:16:57. > :17:00.settlement. But we will have to wait and see. Interesting that you talk
:17:01. > :17:05.about pressure in Pakistan which is a US ally but it has been there for
:17:06. > :17:11.a long time but the war goes back 16 years. And tonight not even the
:17:12. > :17:17.whole of ten to say. Why has there been such a long term failure of
:17:18. > :17:22.policy and indeed over the issue of Pakistan, why have they failed to
:17:23. > :17:29.get to grips with Pakistan and its continuing harbour of the Taliban?
:17:30. > :17:34.Afghanistan on the one hand is not what it was 16 years ago and I think
:17:35. > :17:41.it is a mistake to say it has been a failure. Because now Afghanistan has
:17:42. > :17:46.a large security force, it has state institutions that they did not have
:17:47. > :17:51.16 years ago. We needed 100,000 troops only six or seven years ago
:17:52. > :17:57.to prevent the Taliban from winning if you like or prevailing. Now the
:17:58. > :18:00.military are saying we need only 4000, 5000. So that has been a
:18:01. > :18:06.positive change but on the other hand you are right that the strategy
:18:07. > :18:11.to encourage Pakistan to play a constructive role has failed. And we
:18:12. > :18:16.need to and we will have to see what President Trump says about this
:18:17. > :18:22.tonight, how to shed Pakistan from its comfort zone that it can be an
:18:23. > :18:28.ally on the one hand and also act as an anniversary and support the
:18:29. > :18:32.Taliban network. At the start of the interview you said President Trump
:18:33. > :18:37.had been very deliberate and looked at reviews and taken is fine. Others
:18:38. > :18:43.accuse him of dragging its heels. And there was also talk that part of
:18:44. > :18:49.the announcement tonight, which may have come from the Steve Bannon win,
:18:50. > :18:54.that it was not military force but mercenaries. What you think of that?
:18:55. > :19:02.I think there is a role for contractors to assist the military.
:19:03. > :19:04.At the present time we have more contractors in Afghanistan Ben
:19:05. > :19:11.troops. But I do not think that you can subcontract the war to the
:19:12. > :19:14.contractors. Their role is a limited role to be in support of the
:19:15. > :19:16.military. And I believe that is where it will come out tonight.
:19:17. > :19:19.Thank you very much. Today the results of the final
:19:20. > :19:22.significant fire safety test triggered by the Grenfell
:19:23. > :19:24.disaster were released. They seek to help us
:19:25. > :19:27.work out which other buildings are safe or not,
:19:28. > :19:29.by working out what sort of cladding The results make for
:19:30. > :19:33.troubling reading. I'm joined by our Policy
:19:34. > :19:48.Editor Chris Cook. I'll have we got here, just remind
:19:49. > :19:52.us. Just after the Grenfell Tower fired the government began an audit
:19:53. > :19:56.of tall buildings across England to work out of the buildings that had
:19:57. > :20:00.aluminium cladding on the outside, what type of installation did they
:20:01. > :20:04.have and what sort of aluminium facing they had on the exterior. The
:20:05. > :20:12.reason why they wanted to know that was that it is possible to have some
:20:13. > :20:15.kind of slightly combustible installation and some kind of
:20:16. > :20:20.slightly combustible exterior cladding if you have them in the
:20:21. > :20:23.right combinations. If they are properly designed and only used in
:20:24. > :20:28.certain combinations. But they did not know what the safe combinations
:20:29. > :20:33.where. So having done that audit, they have done six fire tests so
:20:34. > :20:38.far, there will be seven, and these are to work out which combinations
:20:39. > :20:43.of materials can be used. So what is the significance of this report?
:20:44. > :20:46.This is the last of the ones that were in doubt, the conclusions are
:20:47. > :20:53.that when you take all the test results together we now know the
:20:54. > :20:57.right children 28 tall buildings across England that have designs of
:20:58. > :21:00.cladding, combinations of integration and aluminium cladding
:21:01. > :21:10.on the outside that is not fire safe. 200 buildings unsafe, how do
:21:11. > :21:14.we get to a situation where we handle that. In principle under the
:21:15. > :21:19.building regulations you should not be able to put up the stuff without
:21:20. > :21:23.going through a rigorous fire test of the sword the government has been
:21:24. > :21:28.doing. But the institutions that we rely on to police that requirement,
:21:29. > :21:32.they basically let us down. One example, the longest standing
:21:33. > :21:38.Private institution that has a lot to do building inspection in the UK,
:21:39. > :21:44.the National house-building Council, Derry esteemed, not a jazzy company,
:21:45. > :21:50.they released guidance last year saying they would sign off
:21:51. > :21:53.combustible cladding and insulation without anyone needing to do any
:21:54. > :21:57.test or any further requirement to show it was safe just because
:21:58. > :22:01.culturally that is what was accepted. Institutions like that who
:22:02. > :22:05.had a responsibility to the public to make sure buildings were safe
:22:06. > :22:11.they basically dropped the ball. They took their eye off fire safety.
:22:12. > :22:12.And now we discover many buildings to not read the rules that we set
:22:13. > :22:15.up. The coalition forces who retook
:22:16. > :22:18.Mosul from Isis have moved on west, where the battle is now for Tal
:22:19. > :22:20.Afar. In their wake, they have
:22:21. > :22:22.left a city, much of it Mosul suffered three years of Isis
:22:23. > :22:26.occupation and then a nine-month 700,000 of the residents,
:22:27. > :22:31.many of them traumatised, But is there anything to come home
:22:32. > :22:42.to and is it really safe from Isis? This special report by Yalda Hakim
:22:43. > :22:44.contains images some viewers The road to Mosul is
:22:45. > :22:57.long and convoluted. To reach even the outskirts
:22:58. > :23:00.of the city you have to navigate The Baghdad government
:23:01. > :23:16.has declared victory. There are still pockets
:23:17. > :23:28.of IS fighters in the old city. And this is what
:23:29. > :23:33.liberation looks like. Iraq's second largest
:23:34. > :23:42.city, just ruins. The bulk of the city is just
:23:43. > :23:45.completely destroyed and devastated. I cannot even begin to imagine
:23:46. > :23:55.what it would have been like for the people trapped
:23:56. > :23:57.in this city. They were not allowed out,
:23:58. > :23:59.Isis wasn't letting them. And there was constant
:24:00. > :24:00.bombardment here. Trapped beneath these ruins
:24:01. > :24:30.there are untold numbers of bodies. This woman is now homeless along
:24:31. > :24:34.with a million other This is the ambulance that has
:24:35. > :25:35.come to transfer me. This doctor is getting to work,
:25:36. > :25:46.the only way he can. I am a volunteer doctor,
:25:47. > :25:50.not a graduate doctor. And now I'm going to the hospital
:25:51. > :25:53.in the west of Mosul. Mosul's only functioning
:25:54. > :26:17.hospital is overwhelmed. There is no one checking the people
:26:18. > :26:20.who are coming and going. And so the security forces
:26:21. > :26:23.are concerned that some of these people could be Isis fighters
:26:24. > :26:34.or Isis supporters. And I'm examining the site of the
:26:35. > :27:07.shrapnel and the depth of the nail. At the height of the fighting
:27:08. > :27:10.the doctor was treating up And not just from injuries
:27:11. > :27:17.but illnesses caused due According to the Army,
:27:18. > :27:50.retreating Isis fighters have rigged 90% of the buildings
:27:51. > :28:07.with improvised explosive devices. Do you have the resources, I mean,
:28:08. > :28:11.do you have enough men to...? But the Iraqi military is now
:28:12. > :28:25.accused of targeting and killing people they suspect
:28:26. > :28:30.of belonging to Isis. The government say they are
:28:31. > :28:43.investigating these allegations. When Islamic State swept
:28:44. > :28:46.into Mosul three years ago the world watched in horror
:28:47. > :28:47.as they unleashed At first many saw them as liberators
:28:48. > :29:00.from an oppressive Shia Mosul University, once home
:29:01. > :29:13.to over a million books. Rare maps, ancient manuscripts
:29:14. > :29:16.and a ninth century Koran This is the college
:29:17. > :29:27.of computer and mathematics. This seat of learning represented
:29:28. > :29:34.everything Isis stood against. Intellectuals like Ali Al Hadidi,
:29:35. > :29:38.a renowned professor of law, I have come to visit
:29:39. > :30:14.the doctor from Mosul Over lunch he explains
:30:15. > :30:28.that it was his profession that ultimately saved him and his family
:30:29. > :30:30.from the wrath of Did that make you nervous, though,
:30:31. > :30:57.that your son would go out Is there fear then that there
:30:58. > :31:52.could be another uprising? The people of Mosul now have to
:31:53. > :31:56.rebuild a broken and divided city. But real reconciliation
:31:57. > :32:01.will be a battle. And all the while, Isis fighters
:32:02. > :32:05.are hiding amongst the population. When is it appropriate to remove
:32:06. > :32:25.statues from our streets and squares and parks,
:32:26. > :32:27.erected to men whose past glories When the city of Charlottesville
:32:28. > :32:34.voted to remove a statue of General Robert E Lee,
:32:35. > :32:37.who commanded the confederate army of North Virginia,
:32:38. > :32:41.the ensuing furore saw KKK, white supremacists and
:32:42. > :32:43.neo-Nazis on the streets, violent clashes with
:32:44. > :32:47.counter-demonstrators, the death of one
:32:48. > :32:55.young woman, and approbrium heaped on Trump for his failure to condemn
:32:56. > :32:58.the actions of far-right groups. In Russia, it's the 80th anniversary
:32:59. > :33:00.of the Great Terror, the purges in which Josef Stalin
:33:01. > :33:03.killed and enslaved millions, and yet new statues to him
:33:04. > :33:06.are springing up in the country, led by Vladimir Putin's
:33:07. > :33:08.admiration of the dictator In a moment, we will be discussing
:33:09. > :33:16.what to do with fallen idols and how But first, here's a Vewsnight
:33:17. > :33:22.on the subject from Dr Rahul Rao, And Rahul Rao joins me now,
:33:23. > :35:39.as does the historian Tim Stanley. Good evening. Let's have a
:35:40. > :35:49.conversation about how you decide all this. He would suggested in his
:35:50. > :35:54.piece that it is possible to consider bringing down the statues
:35:55. > :35:59.of Washington and Thomas Jefferson. I admire him for his honesty and
:36:00. > :36:04.logic because a lot of people would say they want to stop at one set of
:36:05. > :36:09.statues but once you approach the subject from the principle of let us
:36:10. > :36:14.eradicate those things from the past that were morally wrong and not
:36:15. > :36:18.acceptable today, you cannot stop at Confederate statues, you put
:36:19. > :36:22.everything on the table and the problem with that is you create an
:36:23. > :36:26.artificial sense of the past. We try to cleanse it of all things that
:36:27. > :36:30.make no sense morally today and therefore you rewrite the past and
:36:31. > :36:36.create a past that simply was not real. You are rewriting the past?
:36:37. > :36:40.Not at all, I think a lot of these movements objecting to statues are
:36:41. > :36:46.not about rewriting the past. The rash of Confederate monument that
:36:47. > :36:54.scars the American landscape were exercises in revisionist history and
:36:55. > :36:57.built to nurture a view of the Civil War as a noble struggle fought
:36:58. > :36:59.against Northern aggression and removing them help source right a
:37:00. > :37:04.better history of the Civil War. Looking back at the Second World
:37:05. > :37:10.War, and indeed looking at the Spanish Civil War, are you against
:37:11. > :37:15.the removal as has been done, statues of Franco, Mussolini? It is
:37:16. > :37:20.about contemporary culture and context and it must be a legal
:37:21. > :37:25.process, not driven by a particular interest group. Ukraine is removing
:37:26. > :37:30.statues of Lenin, which makes sense to me. By contrast, consider
:37:31. > :37:36.Parliament Square because we are focused on Big Ben today. Who is in
:37:37. > :37:41.the square? You have Winston Churchill, architects of Empire, men
:37:42. > :37:47.with bigoted and unpleasant views. In Parliament Square you have Nelson
:37:48. > :37:51.Mandela. Statues tell the full story. History does not start in
:37:52. > :37:56.leaps and bounds, it is evolution and if you keep all the statues, you
:37:57. > :38:02.then have a full history of Empire for people to read. You cannot
:38:03. > :38:06.remove everything, obliterated his street. It is not about
:38:07. > :38:09.obliterating, the ascetics of celebration are different from the
:38:10. > :38:15.aesthetics of critique. It would be one thing to put the statues in a
:38:16. > :38:22.museum. It is quite another thing to put them on a pedestal literally in
:38:23. > :38:26.a public place. Where do you stop? I could say you would not want a lot
:38:27. > :38:31.of statues of 19th century politicians because they stood
:38:32. > :38:35.against suffrage for women. I do not think any historical figure should
:38:36. > :38:39.be beyond examination and re-evaluation. Does that mean
:38:40. > :38:46.removal? It could mean replacing those statues in a museum. If you
:38:47. > :38:51.put them in private places you do not have a dialogue. Why put them in
:38:52. > :38:56.a museum? These people are so fundamentally immoral, why not get
:38:57. > :39:03.rid of the statue altogether? The objective is not to raise and skill,
:39:04. > :39:08.it is to expose and the renaming of Robert E Leigh Park as an
:39:09. > :39:12.emancipation park tells the history better, that does not glorify
:39:13. > :39:20.slavery that recalls the struggles of those who were enslaved. That is
:39:21. > :39:24.a particular contemporary context but my fear is a lot of the effort
:39:25. > :39:34.to take down statues is not about correcting history but telling a
:39:35. > :39:42.particular Buddhist school... -- a political political... What about
:39:43. > :39:47.Oliver Cromwell. One section of the community to them he was a tyrant
:39:48. > :39:51.and is remembered as a tyrant and to another section of the community in
:39:52. > :39:55.he is not. When you have a divide, how do you decide? When putting up
:39:56. > :40:01.the statue of Cromwell it almost brought the government down it was
:40:02. > :40:05.so controversial. I am catholic and have Irish and my family and
:40:06. > :40:09.Cromwell is a war criminal who shut down Parliament that 100 years on
:40:10. > :40:14.from the statue being erected I understand it is part of British
:40:15. > :40:18.identity and sometimes we lie to ourselves and tell national
:40:19. > :40:25.fantasies and it is part of our identity that Cromwell stood up the
:40:26. > :40:30.Parliamentary sovereignty. Russia, Vladimir Putin seems hell-bent on
:40:31. > :40:35.rehabilitating Josef Stalin. The idea now that people in Russia will
:40:36. > :40:40.look and see the man who murdered their ancestors put on a pedestal. I
:40:41. > :40:44.think we are talking about different examples as if they are equivalent
:40:45. > :40:51.and we need to distinguish between situations where those in power bill
:40:52. > :40:56.statues to ratify their stranglehold and those wanting to put up statues
:40:57. > :40:59.to get a toehold in a public sphere from which they are excluded. Thank
:41:00. > :41:02.you. On a day when we looked
:41:03. > :41:05.to the heavens, we sadly lost a giant of the science
:41:06. > :41:07.fiction literary world. The great Brian Aldiss
:41:08. > :41:09.passed away aged 92 today. One of the pioneers of the genre
:41:10. > :41:17.who used sci-fi to hold up --
:41:18. > :41:18.he counted everyone from Stanley Kubrick
:41:19. > :41:20.to Agatha Christie, CS Lewis to Tolkein as friends
:41:21. > :41:22.and colleagues. So in his honour, we dug
:41:23. > :41:24.into the BBC interview archive to let him say goodbye
:41:25. > :41:27.in his own words. Really, a novel takes
:41:28. > :41:29.you about a year to write, so you have not got to be bored
:41:30. > :41:33.by it, so you don't plan it. But Doris Lessing told me long ago,
:41:34. > :41:40.no, sorry, it wasn't Doris, Iris said, you must never tell
:41:41. > :41:48.anyone how much you enjoy writing. You must always make out that
:41:49. > :41:52.it's really hard work. Well, it is hard work,
:41:53. > :41:54.but it's also the second most Well, I don't agree with those
:41:55. > :42:06.people who think that science fiction is some kind of prediction
:42:07. > :42:08.of the future. I think it is a metaphor
:42:09. > :42:13.and it is a metaphor There is certainly something in me
:42:14. > :42:20.that urgently needs expression, and it doesn't quite tell me
:42:21. > :42:41.what it is. Hello, Tuesday morning will dawn
:42:42. > :42:43.mild but murky. A lot of