:00:10. > :00:15.Quote of the day. Is it your intention to lead the Tory party
:00:16. > :00:19.into the next general election? Yes I am here for the long term and it
:00:20. > :00:24.is crucial, what me and my government are about is not just
:00:25. > :00:29.delivering on Brexit, we are delivering a brighter future for the
:00:30. > :00:32.United Kingdom. The Prime Minister is not a quitter, she says. The
:00:33. > :00:39.conventional view is that it may not be up to her. Is it possible that
:00:40. > :00:46.Theresa May could just turn around and carry on Prime
:00:47. > :00:48.If she delivered Brexit and I think she will,
:00:49. > :00:58.should you be outraged at a white Christian child being put into the
:00:59. > :01:00.care of a Muslim family? This kind of small-minded kind
:01:01. > :01:03.of hysterical reaction to you know, white English child going
:01:04. > :01:05.to a British Muslim family. I mean, that it could be
:01:06. > :01:08.so shocking and worthy of so many headlines and such
:01:09. > :01:10.drama was disappointing. Also tonight: the week
:01:11. > :01:11.that changed Britain. As the wreaths piled up
:01:12. > :01:14.outside Kensington Palace the nation renowned for its stiff
:01:15. > :01:17.upper lip was showing a decidedly Twenty years on, did Diana's
:01:18. > :01:21.death tip us into a new Or were we right to become more
:01:22. > :01:30.open about our feelings? Theresa May said something
:01:31. > :01:33.that is generally considered Speaking to journalists
:01:34. > :01:37.on her trip to Japan, she said she will be leading
:01:38. > :01:40.the Tory Party into Now, that's not the conventional
:01:41. > :01:53.view, which is that the Tories will dump her ignominiously just
:01:54. > :01:56.as soon as she has taken all the blame for any U-turns
:01:57. > :01:58.or Brexit chaos that'll be coming the Government's way,
:01:59. > :02:00.thus leaving a clean But what a statement
:02:01. > :02:03.for her to make. An attempt to stamp some
:02:04. > :02:05.authority on the party, Is it conceivable that she will lead
:02:06. > :02:10.the party for years to come? Or is it just an inevitable
:02:11. > :02:12.political ritual that Prime Ministers have
:02:13. > :02:14.to pretend as much? Here's our political
:02:15. > :02:29.editor, Nick Watt. There must be something magical
:02:30. > :02:33.about the Alpine air. An emboldened Theresa May has returned from her
:02:34. > :02:40.summer holiday to reset the dial on her faltering premiership by making
:02:41. > :02:45.plain, I am not a quitter. Do you intend to fight the next election?
:02:46. > :02:49.Yes, there's been a lot of speculation about my future which
:02:50. > :02:53.has no basis in it whatsoever. I am on this for the long-term. There is
:02:54. > :02:58.real job to be done in the United Kingdom. It's about getting the
:02:59. > :03:01.Brexit deal right, it's about building that special partnership
:03:02. > :03:06.with the European Union for the future but it is also about leading
:03:07. > :03:09.global Britain, trading around the world, yes, dealing with injustices
:03:10. > :03:16.that remain inside the United Kingdom. The number of votes cast...
:03:17. > :03:18.All a far cry from the diminished figure who emerged shell-shocked
:03:19. > :03:26.from the disaster general election campaign. A Prime Minister who
:03:27. > :03:32.briefly contemplated resigning. And struggled to connect after the
:03:33. > :03:38.Grenfell Tower disaster. Theresa May's remarks today stand in
:03:39. > :03:42.contrast to her sheepish declaration to Tory MPs in the early summer that
:03:43. > :03:47.she would simply serve at their pleasure. Back then the Prime
:03:48. > :03:51.Minister spoke of her duty to see out the Brexit negotiations, raising
:03:52. > :03:56.expectations that she would leave shortly after the two-year deadline
:03:57. > :04:03.in 2019. Now the Prime Minister wants to deliver not just Brexit but
:04:04. > :04:08.also an ambitious agenda of domestic reforms. One leading Brexiteer
:04:09. > :04:12.believes the Prime Minister 's holiday has worked wonders. I think
:04:13. > :04:16.she has a new lease of life, walking in the hills of, or was it
:04:17. > :04:23.Switzerland, I think she is doing remarkably well. And Peter Bone, who
:04:24. > :04:25.was recently entertained to some drinks by the Prime Minister at
:04:26. > :04:30.Chequers believes she is wholeheartedly committed to Brexit.
:04:31. > :04:34.You know what these meetings are about, it's nice to see the Prime
:04:35. > :04:37.Minister but I was amazed at the one thing that she was fired up about,
:04:38. > :04:42.the one thing that will definitely happen is Brexit. Her eyes sparkled
:04:43. > :04:47.at the thought of it and I thought, Wow, this is just what we need. If
:04:48. > :04:52.there was anyone who had any doubt, they should have been about beating.
:04:53. > :04:56.She's going to deliver us Brexit. If she were to deliver Brexit and I
:04:57. > :05:01.think she will, she will be a national hero. And then why not
:05:02. > :05:06.carry on? I have not heard a single person of all my backbench
:05:07. > :05:09.colleagues, saying we have to get rid of the Prime Minister, we have
:05:10. > :05:14.to get a new leader. It just isn't there. There is no plotting. By the
:05:15. > :05:19.way I think if plotting was going on I would know about it. A former
:05:20. > :05:24.adviser to David Cameron with some painful memories of his time in
:05:25. > :05:28.Downing Street understands tactics in seeking to avoid a lame duck
:05:29. > :05:31.premiership. No Prime Minister ever wants to get themselves into a
:05:32. > :05:36.situation where they are setting a date for their departure. My old
:05:37. > :05:42.boss David Cameron found that to his cost in 2015 when he said he would
:05:43. > :05:49.not serve term. But Sir Craig Oliver wonders whether the mixed messages
:05:50. > :05:52.from a Prime Minister who does not command a parliamentary majority
:05:53. > :05:57.will work. The problem further is that she's basically had a narrative
:05:58. > :06:02.in Westminster for the last once but you will go after the Brexit
:06:03. > :06:06.negotiations. It is what has been assumed in the Tory party. Now a lot
:06:07. > :06:09.of people are going to say, wait a minute, I thought you were going. I
:06:10. > :06:12.thought we weren't going to be in a position where he would fight the
:06:13. > :06:17.next election but Wilson is that they will say that that's going to
:06:18. > :06:20.be a problem for them. The hills are alive with the sound of the Prime
:06:21. > :06:26.Minister thinking carefully about her future. Theresa May hopes to
:06:27. > :06:27.have cemented the position in No 10 but she leads a party with a
:06:28. > :06:36.regicide or streak. Should we take this literally,
:06:37. > :06:40.seriously? What is going on. What is her game.
:06:41. > :06:46.A marked shift in tone and substance from the diminished Theresa May we
:06:47. > :06:49.saw after the election. One thing that is clear is that the Prime
:06:50. > :06:54.Minister wanted to use this trip to knock on the head or weekend report
:06:55. > :06:58.that should be gone by August 20 19. Why? Because if you name your
:06:59. > :07:02.departure date as Tony Blair and David Cameron can tell you, there is
:07:03. > :07:06.a danger you become a lame duck. Whether that means that she really
:07:07. > :07:12.will lead the Tory party into the 2022 election I am not too sure. And
:07:13. > :07:16.I think what she was trying to do was chart this very difficult course
:07:17. > :07:21.between not doing a Tony Blair and David Cameron, naming that state but
:07:22. > :07:25.equally not getting into the Thatcher territory, who famously
:07:26. > :07:31.said before the 1987 election that she would go on and on and on. It is
:07:32. > :07:36.a perilous and difficult path and we saw that today. We haven't had this
:07:37. > :07:40.out in public for long, she said it to journalists a bit earlier than it
:07:41. > :07:55.was put into the public domain, how has it gone down. As we know the
:07:56. > :07:57.Brexiteers, Peter Bone very happy if she takes the Tories into the 2022
:07:58. > :08:00.election but one Grandi told me the party was agreed on two things, no
:08:01. > :08:03.general election for the next five years and anything that causes that
:08:04. > :08:06.is a bad thing and must be avoided but one that election comes, Theresa
:08:07. > :08:08.May must not lead the Tory party. This person said to me, there is
:08:09. > :08:12.disagreement about when she should go. One school of thought says, by
:08:13. > :08:18.now, another says, wait until 2019, and that school of thought, the 2019
:08:19. > :08:21.one, is in the ascendancy. Thank you, Nick.
:08:22. > :08:23.A spotlight has been thrown onto the fostering system
:08:24. > :08:26.in the last few days, with the case of a five-year-old
:08:27. > :08:27.girl placed with Muslim foster parents.
:08:28. > :08:30.The reporting has focused on the distress of the child
:08:31. > :08:33.at being in an unfamiliar culture, with Arabic often spoken at home.
:08:34. > :08:35.She has just been taken away from the foster parents and put
:08:36. > :08:42.Obviously, we can't go into the details of the case,
:08:43. > :08:45.but the judge overseeing it has made it quite clear the girl's transfer
:08:46. > :08:52.to her grandmother was nothing to do with the media coverage.
:08:53. > :08:54.And the judge pointed out that the girl's appointed
:08:55. > :08:58.as to the child's welfare, and reported that the child
:08:59. > :09:00.is settled and well cared for by the foster carer.
:09:01. > :09:03.But the judge did say that when the girl was was originally
:09:04. > :09:05.placed, no culturally matched foster family was available.
:09:06. > :09:10.Are enough foster parents out there to offer a choice?
:09:11. > :09:13.Children who need foster care are amongst the most vulnerable in
:09:14. > :09:19.At a difficult and disruptive time, the priority is to find
:09:20. > :09:23.consideration is given to a child's ethnicity,
:09:24. > :09:36.Today, a judge has ordered an English speaking child placed
:09:37. > :09:40.into foster care with a mixed-race family whose
:09:41. > :09:42.reported use of Arabic upset her should live
:09:43. > :09:44.The local authority involved, the London
:09:45. > :09:46.Borough of Tower Hamlets, has insisted the girl's
:09:47. > :09:49.English-speaking, but it has raised questions
:09:50. > :09:50.around the challenges of
:09:51. > :09:53.When you do make decisions about placing a child somewhere in
:09:54. > :09:55.an emergency, if it's not the ideal placement,
:09:56. > :09:58.you then have to decide kind of what's best really and there
:09:59. > :10:01.are also issues about their background, their racial heritage,
:10:02. > :10:07.So there will be a whole number of factors that you would need
:10:08. > :10:09.to take into consideration when you're
:10:10. > :10:15.And as I say, the geographical consideration will be quite a
:10:16. > :10:20.significant one because if a child is being taken out of their family,
:10:21. > :10:22.you don't want them to have to sort of leave
:10:23. > :10:23.school and have to make new
:10:24. > :10:26.friends on top of everything else that's happened to them.
:10:27. > :10:28.The decision to place a child in foster
:10:29. > :10:31.care is made by social workers and Children's
:10:32. > :10:36.Judges can also intervene in the process if it is felt the
:10:37. > :10:40.Time can be critical in making a decision,
:10:41. > :10:43.along with the availability of carers.
:10:44. > :10:47.There is always a shortage of foster carers.
:10:48. > :10:49.Because, well, apart from anything else, like
:10:50. > :10:51.everybody else, foster carers retire.
:10:52. > :10:56.So we are always needing to replace foster carers who already in
:10:57. > :10:58.the system, but we also have an increasing number
:10:59. > :11:03.estimates would be that we probably need to recruit
:11:04. > :11:11.foster carers for England and UK-wide.
:11:12. > :11:14.To be able to kind of meet the demand that we have.
:11:15. > :11:16.And to ensure that we have enough choice really so
:11:17. > :11:18.that we can provide the best placement
:11:19. > :11:20.possible for each child that is
:11:21. > :11:23.There are nearly 53,000 foster carers in England of
:11:24. > :11:29.Nine local authorities reported having no long-term
:11:30. > :11:33.foster carers from ethnic minority groups.
:11:34. > :11:36.And just over a fifth of foster children are from an ethnic
:11:37. > :11:39.A shortage of ethnic minority foster carers means
:11:40. > :11:42.white British families often look after children from different
:11:43. > :11:45.It doesn't happen as much the other way round, but when
:11:46. > :11:47.it does, it can be seen as controversial.
:11:48. > :11:50.Well, I think it is more about self image.
:11:51. > :11:51.Precious Williams spent much of her childhood with
:11:52. > :12:02.I remember quite clearly in my situation, in my
:12:03. > :12:07.childhood situation, eventually there came a time
:12:08. > :12:10.when my mother and stepfather wanted me to come back
:12:11. > :12:12.and live with them as planned, in a Nigerian household.
:12:13. > :12:14.And my English family said, no, they are not
:12:15. > :12:19.And I have actually seen the legal documents from back then
:12:20. > :12:23.and the judge was very much, his decision was for me to stay with
:12:24. > :12:26.He was very much saying I can benefit from the
:12:27. > :12:28.English way of life and being in an English home.
:12:29. > :12:31.And he was sort of saying basically, that is better
:12:32. > :12:35.So, we are going back to the 1980s, that was the attitude then.
:12:36. > :12:37.But unfortunately, this story, it is looking
:12:38. > :12:38.like that is still the
:12:39. > :12:40.attitude now, that if a child of colour
:12:41. > :12:42.is in an English home, they
:12:43. > :12:44.are being somehow, they are benefiting from that, but when you
:12:45. > :12:50.And I also think if we are going to talk
:12:51. > :12:51.about diversity, we need to
:12:52. > :12:53.realise that diversity works all ways.
:12:54. > :12:58.Everyone agrees that children should be matched with foster homes that
:12:59. > :12:59.reflect their needs, faith and background,
:13:00. > :13:05.there simply aren't always enough carers to make that possible.
:13:06. > :13:13.The controversy over fostering started on Monday,
:13:14. > :13:15.when the Times reported details of the Tower Hamlets case.
:13:16. > :13:18.The newspaper put the story on its front page on
:13:19. > :13:21.The journalist who wrote the stories is Andrew Norfolk,
:13:22. > :13:28.A very good evening to you. A typically problem do you think, and
:13:29. > :13:32.I use the word problem in inverted commas because some may not
:13:33. > :13:39.recognise it as such. A typical dealer think it is? As we have just
:13:40. > :13:43.heard, it is far more common in this country, due to a shortage of foster
:13:44. > :13:46.carers from minority ethnic backgrounds for a non-white child to
:13:47. > :13:52.be placed with white British foster carers. We understand that not only
:13:53. > :13:57.in areas of London but also in other parts of the country there are
:13:58. > :14:01.applications when a white British child is placed with non-white
:14:02. > :14:05.carers. They tend to be older children. It's very unusual for a
:14:06. > :14:10.child aged only five to be placed in that sort of environment. The
:14:11. > :14:16.overwhelming majority of foster carers, whether they are Christian,
:14:17. > :14:19.Muslim, Hindu, or of no faith whatsoever, are trained and go out
:14:20. > :14:23.of their way to make sure that that child is made to feel as much as
:14:24. > :14:27.possible at home and in possession of their own identity, and made to
:14:28. > :14:33.feel that the world that they are entering is not one completely alien
:14:34. > :14:39.them. Right. There's been some concern over the reporting. Come and
:14:40. > :14:43.take a couple of aspects? Because when the judges statement was
:14:44. > :14:45.released today, it did emerge that the appointed guardian had found no
:14:46. > :14:50.problems and had spoken to the child in Private and two other people and
:14:51. > :14:54.found that the child was well cared for. It wasn't mentioned in the
:14:55. > :14:56.pieces, I wondered whether that should have been a material fact
:14:57. > :15:07.incoming to the judgment. You are right and I was viewing the
:15:08. > :15:11.journalist in court and we did reflect the child's guardian had no
:15:12. > :15:16.concerns. We were reporting the concerns of another social services
:15:17. > :15:20.employee from Tower Hamlets and she was reporting what she was observing
:15:21. > :15:24.of the child, of that child's deep distress being returned to the home
:15:25. > :15:28.where that child said she could not understand what they were saying
:15:29. > :15:33.because they did not speak English. It is also worth pointing out that
:15:34. > :15:37.this is a six-month placement we are looking at, she has been with two
:15:38. > :15:41.different foster carers, four monster and two months, and the
:15:42. > :15:45.concerns raised with the initial four months. We understand the
:15:46. > :15:49.statement Tower Hamlets put out and the statement from the Guardian
:15:50. > :15:55.reflects the most recent two months. If you said the Guardian had no
:15:56. > :15:58.concerns, I am sorry, I did not see that. There was another aspect of
:15:59. > :16:04.the coverage which was today, your piece implied that the judge has
:16:05. > :16:08.somehow responded, the headline implied the judge had responded to
:16:09. > :16:13.the media coverage. And to take on the child out of the family and put
:16:14. > :16:17.her with her grandmother. When you read the judge's statement, that is
:16:18. > :16:20.not what happened, it was nothing to do with the media coverage, the
:16:21. > :16:23.council wanted her to go to the grandmother and that had always been
:16:24. > :16:28.on the agenda and it was to do with waiting to see that the grandmother
:16:29. > :16:33.herself was suitable to take her into care. I wonder whether that
:16:34. > :16:36.headline and strapline were appropriate? Again, if anyone read
:16:37. > :16:41.the article we published today, we quoted the judge as saying that the
:16:42. > :16:48.media coverage was no factor in her decision. It was the case that the
:16:49. > :16:51.girl's mother for some months had been asking for the child to be
:16:52. > :16:54.placed in the care of her grandmother and removed from foster
:16:55. > :16:58.care because, as the report reflected, there were concerns about
:16:59. > :17:05.the suitability of that placement. The timing was a matter of
:17:06. > :17:10.coincidence. We were not aware that hearing was coming up when we
:17:11. > :17:15.started reporting this case. The judge did criticise Tower Hamlets
:17:16. > :17:18.for delays which had prevented the decision being made sooner. But
:17:19. > :17:20.certainly, all parties were agreeable to the transfer. Thank you
:17:21. > :17:23.very much. Andy Elvin is the Chief Executive
:17:24. > :17:25.of the Tact fostering And Neil Carmichael is the former
:17:26. > :17:33.Tory MP who, as chair of the Education Select Committee,
:17:34. > :17:35.had been leading an inquiry into foster care, before
:17:36. > :17:42.he lost his seat in June. Good evening. When you read the
:17:43. > :17:47.articles, did you have concerns about what they said about the state
:17:48. > :17:52.of fostering in the UK, Neil? The enquiry you have referred to was
:17:53. > :17:56.focusing on two things. One was making fostering more popular and
:17:57. > :17:59.understanding training needed to be enhanced in certain places and
:18:00. > :18:03.pointing out that being a foster carer is a very good thing. The
:18:04. > :18:06.second thing we wanted to talk about was the need for children's services
:18:07. > :18:10.to be more holistic in their thinking and more joined up in their
:18:11. > :18:15.approach to making decisions you have been talking about. Those are
:18:16. > :18:19.the two points that effectively underpinned this story in terms of
:18:20. > :18:26.what we need to do next. Let's not talk about this particular story. In
:18:27. > :18:29.general, do you think cultural, religious, ethnic fit matters? I
:18:30. > :18:35.think what we have to remember is we live in a Liberal democracy. A mixed
:18:36. > :18:40.cultural experiences part of our society. We do not want to get
:18:41. > :18:44.bogged down in that territory. We want to focus on the outcome for the
:18:45. > :18:50.child who is being cared for by foster carers. And also, the overall
:18:51. > :18:54.ethos we are trying to establish here, which is that young people
:18:55. > :18:57.need the proper support, as appropriate, as Children's Services
:18:58. > :19:02.need to react in that way. And everyone would agree with that.
:19:03. > :19:07.Well, everybody does, but we have to deliver it. Andy, do you think
:19:08. > :19:11.cultural fit matters? How much does that matter? It can matter, it
:19:12. > :19:16.depends on the case. There are many examples of excellent foster carers
:19:17. > :19:21.looking after children not from their communities. There are lot of
:19:22. > :19:25.white carers looking after young people from Afghanistan and Iraq and
:19:26. > :19:28.Syria and doing a fantastic job the cultural capital the young people
:19:29. > :19:33.need to respect their background is available in many places in the UK,
:19:34. > :19:37.especially in places like London. It does not as the parents are
:19:38. > :19:40.understanding of the child's background? You want a safe and
:19:41. > :19:44.stable home to meet the needs of the child and that is with the most
:19:45. > :19:49.important thing. In this case, one issue that shocked a lot of people
:19:50. > :19:51.and it is disputed, talking hypothetically, was language, that
:19:52. > :19:55.the foster parents apparently spoke Arabic a lot of the time and the
:19:56. > :20:00.child did not. Whether or not that is that surely would not be a good
:20:01. > :20:04.end? It would not, this case was a nonsense, it was a complete lie that
:20:05. > :20:08.that was the case. To be a foster carer, you have to have a long
:20:09. > :20:12.assessment and have good spoken and written English so in Bishoo spoken
:20:13. > :20:18.in all foster homes around the UK and to suggest otherwise is
:20:19. > :20:24.incorrect. Does it matter to you, is it any different whether it is a
:20:25. > :20:28.Muslim child in a Christian family or Christian child in a Muslim
:20:29. > :20:34.family, is it entirely symmetrical? Yes, I think so, we are a tolerant
:20:35. > :20:37.and Liberal society and those principles have to be maintained.
:20:38. > :20:43.Our attitude must be about the quality of the care and the nature
:20:44. > :20:47.of the decisions around who is going to look after the child. That is the
:20:48. > :20:51.important point. That is why we need to talk about Children's Services as
:20:52. > :20:55.much as foster carers. Is the basic problem that we do not have enough
:20:56. > :21:00.foster carers to make the choices? This was the case here, there was
:21:01. > :21:03.not the cultural fit? There are not enough carers for teenagers and
:21:04. > :21:06.sibling groups and we welcome more foster carers to apply and a lot of
:21:07. > :21:11.people ruled themselves out, they've think they cannot do it because they
:21:12. > :21:15.are single or the wrong religion or they are too old or too young or the
:21:16. > :21:18.wrong sexuality. Foster carers from all backgrounds and they are
:21:19. > :21:24.fantastic. They do with wonderful job in this country. We need to be
:21:25. > :21:29.very grateful and we need more. We definitely need more. I was going to
:21:30. > :21:33.say that. Before we let you go, we need to ask you about the top story
:21:34. > :21:38.today, Theresa May going on and on until the next election. You lost
:21:39. > :21:43.your seat at the last election and on a harsh day, you may say that is
:21:44. > :21:47.her fault, maybe you blame yourself or her, what is the reaction to her
:21:48. > :21:51.leading the party to the next election? We do not know when the
:21:52. > :21:54.next election is going to be, we are in a minority situation and we have
:21:55. > :21:59.difficult decisions to make over Brexit so this is a tabular time. I
:22:00. > :22:04.suppose it is wise for the captain of the ship to point out she is
:22:05. > :22:08.still holding on -- a turbulent time. Would you welcome her being
:22:09. > :22:13.Greider? I thought she was the right choice in the beginning when she
:22:14. > :22:18.first became Prime Minister. I was taken aback at the decision to have
:22:19. > :22:21.a general election when she did. I was also surprised to read the
:22:22. > :22:27.manifesto and I can see you smiling! But I am sure if she were to read us
:22:28. > :22:34.to the next general election, she would focus on the economy first of
:22:35. > :22:40.all. As a key issue. And I cannot imagine any mention of fox hunting!
:22:41. > :22:44.Those lessons to learn. Sorry to digress, thank you, both.
:22:45. > :22:46.Google is being accused today of trying to close down public
:22:47. > :23:00.The story is that a think tank in the US, to which it has given
:23:01. > :23:03.a lot of financial support, published a press release critical
:23:04. > :23:05.of Google, and supporting the EU in fining it recently.
:23:06. > :23:08.Then, mysteriously, the think tank took the offending press
:23:09. > :23:10.release off its website, and exiled the team that had been
:23:11. > :23:13.Had Google got cross at the criticism and threatened
:23:14. > :23:17.The think tank categorically denies it was about Google
:23:18. > :23:18.threatening anything, as does Google.
:23:19. > :23:20.But the sacked Google critic Barry Lynn joins us
:23:21. > :23:32.Good evening. Mr Lynn, what evidence to you have that your separation
:23:33. > :23:40.from the think tank was to do with Google's intervention? There are a
:23:41. > :23:45.number of points of evidence. For instance, the day that we put up a
:23:46. > :23:49.notice, there was a conversation immediately after that with
:23:50. > :23:55.Anne-Marie Slaughter, ahead of the think tank, in which she said, I got
:23:56. > :24:00.off the phone with Google, with Eric Schmidt, and they are polling all of
:24:01. > :24:06.their support including the support for your group. And there is other
:24:07. > :24:10.evidence as well. This is a pattern. It has taken place over a period of
:24:11. > :24:16.a couple of years. In fairness, there is a difference between trying
:24:17. > :24:19.to censor public debate which is your charge, you said Google is
:24:20. > :24:23.trying to censor journalists and researchers. There is a difference
:24:24. > :24:25.between trying to censor you in deciding they do not want to pay
:24:26. > :24:29.view, that is quite a big difference. Google does not pay for
:24:30. > :24:37.me. They were paying for the think tank. They pay for parts of the
:24:38. > :24:43.think tank, to which I am attached. My unit was independent. We raise
:24:44. > :24:46.our money from foundations, from foundations that support public
:24:47. > :24:52.interest work. That is what we have been doing for 15 years. So I have
:24:53. > :24:58.been in New America for a long time and doing this work for a long time.
:24:59. > :25:01.We have never had any problems. That is a very interesting point, you
:25:02. > :25:07.have been doing it for a long time and Google Parliament they gush
:25:08. > :25:11.apparently tolerating a campaign against Google dominated capitalism
:25:12. > :25:15.or whatever you have been researching, but perhaps you cross
:25:16. > :25:23.the line with the last press release which did not even have a report to
:25:24. > :25:32.back it up, it was a reaction to the EU fining Google and sing great
:25:33. > :25:38.news. It was ensuring we have political diversity. And in which
:25:39. > :25:44.power is not concentrated. Our unit has focused on ensuring there is
:25:45. > :25:47.going to be, that we are not going to see a massive concentration of
:25:48. > :25:51.power of the political economy of the United States in the hands of
:25:52. > :25:55.private individuals. That is what we have been doing for the union and
:25:56. > :26:02.that is what we will continue to do. What, are, as far as to tell, but
:26:03. > :26:06.what Google move on. Doing this 20 years ago, we will would probably be
:26:07. > :26:13.campaigning about Microsoft. Ten years ago, it could have been
:26:14. > :26:21.MySpace, the monopoly of that. These things do, and go? Well, they come
:26:22. > :26:27.and go only if there is a trust enforcement. And one think you
:26:28. > :26:34.mentioned, the Microsoft case was a case in which the Department of
:26:35. > :26:38.Justice in the United States brought an action against Microsoft and
:26:39. > :26:39.created a space for writing new companies including Google. OK,
:26:40. > :26:42.thank you very much. We invited New America
:26:43. > :26:45.and Google to join us tonight, As I've said, New America has denied
:26:46. > :26:49.dropping him as a direct result In a statement, the organisation
:26:50. > :26:53.said it had sacked Mr Lynn because he had shown
:26:54. > :26:54.insufficient 'institutional Google issued its own statement,
:26:55. > :27:00.in which it said the company supports hundreds of organisations
:27:01. > :27:02.and doesn't agree with each of them all the time,
:27:03. > :27:04.but that it respects Tonight marks exactly 20
:27:05. > :27:07.years since the death A lot has already been said this
:27:08. > :27:18.month in the build-up to the anniversary of that death,
:27:19. > :27:21.including the reflections of the two Princes in an ITV
:27:22. > :27:24.television documentary. Today, William and Harry
:27:25. > :27:26.remembered their late mother with a visit to a memorial garden -
:27:27. > :27:29.the White Garden - It was pretty wet out
:27:30. > :27:33.there earlier today, but they also took a look
:27:34. > :27:35.at the bouquets left at the gates of the palace,
:27:36. > :27:38.a faint echo of the acres of flowers Those of us who are old enough
:27:39. > :27:44.will never forget that week. We knew it was an
:27:45. > :27:48.extraordinary moment. It felt like a turning point
:27:49. > :27:52.in national character. We became more outwardly emotional,
:27:53. > :27:55.and vocal about it, demanding Newsnight ran nothing
:27:56. > :27:59.other than Diana coverage in the week after her death,
:28:00. > :28:02.and even back then asked whether the effect would be
:28:03. > :28:06.permanent or temporary. So what better time to re-visit
:28:07. > :28:08.that question than now? We'll discuss it shortly, but first,
:28:09. > :28:11.the journalist Mariella Frostrup has been looking back for us at how
:28:12. > :28:27.the nation changed. The seeds of British reserves were
:28:28. > :28:29.sown in the parlours and public schools of the Victorians, and
:28:30. > :28:35.confirmed by our resilience and humour in the face of war. We were
:28:36. > :28:42.stoic, our lips never trembled, we barely emotive and certainly never
:28:43. > :28:47.wept. A young officer had his head blown right Ofcom he is as stiff as
:28:48. > :28:50.cardboard! The stiff upper lip is the greatest act of spin in British
:28:51. > :28:57.history. All it took was one young girl unwilling to toe the line to
:28:58. > :29:01.see that facade crumbled. This is BBC radio news from London. The
:29:02. > :29:08.death has been announced Diana Princess of Wales. In the days after
:29:09. > :29:14.Diana died, Kensington Gardens became a pilgrimage site. When I
:29:15. > :29:20.grudgingly agreed to visit on the Eve of a funeral, it was a warm's
:29:21. > :29:23.summers night and the air was thick with wax and balloons, candlelit
:29:24. > :29:27.vigils were taking place all over the lawns and an eerie silence was
:29:28. > :29:33.broken only by gentle sobbing and the occasional whisper.
:29:34. > :29:38.As the wreaths piled up outside Kensington Palace the nation
:29:39. > :29:44.renowned for its stiff upper lip was showing a decidedly wobbly lower
:29:45. > :29:47.one. Although Diana would never be Queen of England have fresh
:29:48. > :29:51.portrayal of a modern royal and her open affection for her children and
:29:52. > :29:56.subjects had crowned her the Queen of hearts. In death she was elevated
:29:57. > :30:02.to martyrdom is an upsurge of hysterical grief paralysed the
:30:03. > :30:06.nation. It could have come from the pages of a master like Marquez,
:30:07. > :30:13.entitled perhaps, the state of sorrow, as the entire country
:30:14. > :30:17.overnight... That was not a dry eye from lands end to John O'Groats as
:30:18. > :30:23.millions of strangers mourned a woman who had become as much a part
:30:24. > :30:28.of the nation's daily life as the tabloid papers that image had been a
:30:29. > :30:32.staple of. That sense of loss took on enormous proportions and inland
:30:33. > :30:34.in the park around her home became a magnet for the breast, the
:30:35. > :30:39.distraught, and the downright curious. The levels of mourning
:30:40. > :30:44.Nationwide took cynics like myself and allegedly the Queen by surprise.
:30:45. > :30:49.In the moment and indeed with the benefit of hindsight, it is hard to
:30:50. > :30:54.imagine the depths of devastation that Diana's death initiated and the
:30:55. > :30:59.impact it had on her greater supporters, the people -- greatest
:31:00. > :31:03.supporters. We felt like a better, more sympathetic nation for some
:31:04. > :31:08.time afterwards, her empathy for the underdog, their embrace of victims
:31:09. > :31:12.from everything from leprosy to AIDS, her understanding of human
:31:13. > :31:16.need and the compassion she displayed for causes she cared about
:31:17. > :31:19.seemed to thought us. Had allowed us to grieve for what we'd lost but
:31:20. > :31:24.also to come together and embrace the sense of unity have abandoned
:31:25. > :31:27.during the seismic ruptures of the Thatcher revolution. After decades
:31:28. > :31:33.of the iron Lady and her followers, the sustaining notion of community,
:31:34. > :31:37.we were ready to draw together around a sad figure of this lonely,
:31:38. > :31:43.imperfect one man, and the tangible tragedy of her short life. She
:31:44. > :31:46.became a symbol of possibility won her public battle with the
:31:47. > :31:52.centuries-old monarchy out of touch with the nation was won in death.
:31:53. > :31:57.Her greatest triumph may be yet to come as her soul baring adult boys
:31:58. > :32:05.with their eagerness to be seen as down-to-earth expose the fallibility
:32:06. > :32:09.of hereditary elevation. So many hopes and dreams died with Diana,
:32:10. > :32:14.and so many more were born. It was impossible to see the epidemic of
:32:15. > :32:20.sadness provoked as simply the direct result of her death. The
:32:21. > :32:24.connection to this Queen of hearts for some people felt intensely
:32:25. > :32:29.personal yet for many others it was simply a conduit connecting their
:32:30. > :32:34.losses to the national state of sorrow. So what did we learn.
:32:35. > :32:42.Probably nothing we did not know already. There was elevated to great
:32:43. > :32:46.heights haven't even mightier way to fall and even princesses are mortal.
:32:47. > :32:49.But there is no such thing as a fairy tale ending and that
:32:50. > :32:56.expressing your emotions can be cut Karthik even if you don't know what
:32:57. > :33:00.you are grieving for. -- cathartic. The Princess, from the moment she
:33:01. > :33:03.rode the carriage down the mole on her wedding day was emblematic of so
:33:04. > :33:10.much more than that fleeting romance. She was the underdog who
:33:11. > :33:13.revolutionised the monarchy, obliterated our national reputation
:33:14. > :33:18.for maintaining a stiff upper lip and took celebrity soul baring too
:33:19. > :33:22.dizzying new heights. Her legacy remains in the fervour with which
:33:23. > :33:26.she is remembered but despite the god like status thrust on her young
:33:27. > :33:34.shoulders, Diana revealed herself to be mortal, flawed and eager to be
:33:35. > :33:37.loved. Just like the rest of us. Mariella Frostrup.
:33:38. > :33:39.Lots of different things are bound up in the claim
:33:40. > :33:45.that we changed that week - more emotional,
:33:46. > :33:49.perhaps less deferential, sometimes less rational.
:33:50. > :33:57.Isabel Hilton wrote at the time that she felt alienated by the outpouring
:33:58. > :34:01.of emotion, Paris was nine years old when the Princess died and became an
:34:02. > :34:06.adult in the post nine to 97 Britain. Isabel, what are your
:34:07. > :34:11.memories of that week. You say you did not shed any tears. Clearly the
:34:12. > :34:16.event was a shock but I found it became oppressive very quickly. We
:34:17. > :34:21.happened to be driving, the day that her death was announced, from
:34:22. > :34:25.Scotland to London, a long drive, listening to Radio 4. By the time we
:34:26. > :34:30.got to London I thought if one more person was going to be asked how
:34:31. > :34:36.they felt I might scream! What were they supposed to say, I feel great,
:34:37. > :34:40.how do you feel? It was a meaningless enactment of emotion
:34:41. > :34:44.rather than real emotion. Paris, how much do you remember of it. I do
:34:45. > :34:49.remember because I was on holiday with my grandma the night she died
:34:50. > :34:53.and the show had been cancelled just because Princess Diana had died and
:34:54. > :34:58.we were really shocked, looking back now I just think, why did the show
:34:59. > :35:03.have to be cancelled. It was a bit over the top. I remember people
:35:04. > :35:07.being really upset, my mum being really upset, I remember going to
:35:08. > :35:11.some kind of gathering in Nottingham city centre, and just this great
:35:12. > :35:15.sadness being around, really. You have spent a lot of your life
:35:16. > :35:22.fighting against rigid straitjacket that society puts on you. Was she
:35:23. > :35:29.too prior to your era to become someone who was an inspiration, an
:35:30. > :35:33.icon, a role model? No, I'm as addicted as anyone looking at the
:35:34. > :35:38.old panorama interviews on YouTube, clearly there was something about
:35:39. > :35:42.that resonated with people. An adult, now, I have been dismissed as
:35:43. > :35:49.the crazy ex-girlfriend before, and I can see why so many women found
:35:50. > :35:56.something to identify with, she's almost archetypal neurotic woman who
:35:57. > :36:02.had been wronged by the ultimate patriarchal institution, the Royal
:36:03. > :36:06.family. It wasn't just about her as an individual. Obviously she was a
:36:07. > :36:10.special person but thing she tapped into our feelings about the way
:36:11. > :36:16.young women are treated in this society and it's not always fairly.
:36:17. > :36:20.Isabel, did it change bit for good, did we become more sentimental? I
:36:21. > :36:25.look at my Facebook timeline, it is full of sentimental slush most of
:36:26. > :36:31.the time. Does that go back to Diana or is it different. I think I am as
:36:32. > :36:35.the cause of change is overstated. I do think that the stiff upper lip
:36:36. > :36:41.myth, historically, it was pretty short lived. It comes into being in
:36:42. > :36:45.the late 19th century because we needed a stiff upper lip to run an
:36:46. > :36:51.empire. You don't want your district officer in Peshawar in motoring. We
:36:52. > :36:55.want him to be hanging in there. -- not in motoring. Back in the 18th
:36:56. > :37:02.century the British were promoting all over the place. Really? This is
:37:03. > :37:05.not new now? They were not known as Chile, there were known as morose,
:37:06. > :37:13.violent, grumpy but certainly not emotionally buttoned up. Things like
:37:14. > :37:16.The Man Of Feeling there is weeping in every page of this 18th-century
:37:17. > :37:21.novel and people loved it. By mid-Victorian times people find it
:37:22. > :37:26.hard to deal with. I think we are reverting, these things were always
:37:27. > :37:31.there. Paris, has it gone a bit far, do you find life sentimental now? I
:37:32. > :37:37.can't compel it to the pre-Diana world but remember there was this,
:37:38. > :37:42.there was Geri Halliwell leaving the Spice Girls, Jack dying in Titanic,
:37:43. > :37:47.a lot of dramatic stuff when I was a kid! People would make a distinction
:37:48. > :37:52.between those things. Social media is all about feeling, isn't it. And
:37:53. > :37:57.there's not enough of judge this and think about it, it is all about feel
:37:58. > :38:01.it. I guess so. It is interesting what we label as emotional. We don't
:38:02. > :38:06.generally labelled Donald Trump as emotional and yet anger is an
:38:07. > :38:09.emotion. Women's emotions get labelled emotional but if a man is
:38:10. > :38:15.violent and fights we don't say, he's emotional. There has always
:38:16. > :38:18.been emotion expressed in society, it is which ones with police. I
:38:19. > :38:25.think it's good that we have a more open society, society can feel cold
:38:26. > :38:28.and uncaring for lots of people and if anything I think we need more
:38:29. > :38:32.caring because she wasn't just expressing pure emotion, Diana's
:38:33. > :38:36.whole thing was empathy and connecting with other peoples
:38:37. > :38:43.emotions. I think we need more of to be honest. How far do you agree with
:38:44. > :38:47.what you have just heard? At the empathy is very important but it is,
:38:48. > :38:53.of whom do we demand emotional display. That is the tricky bit.
:38:54. > :38:56.Because actually I don't want, if people are in extreme situations
:38:57. > :38:59.they don't want their first responders or policeman to be
:39:00. > :39:08.emotional, they want them to be cool. Theresa May goes to Grenfell
:39:09. > :39:13.Tower... Shouldn't empathise. -- she didn't empathise. She didn't weep,
:39:14. > :39:16.she didn't make the victims, she didn't empathise and at moments of
:39:17. > :39:20.national trauma like that you want the leader to show that they
:39:21. > :39:25.empathise, not that they are weak themselves. I don't want judges and
:39:26. > :39:29.politicians to weep. I want them to mediate between different emotions
:39:30. > :39:34.and make rational and effective decisions. I don't want them crying.
:39:35. > :39:41.Seuk-hyun Baek I think one leader, Jeremy Corbyn, was very empathic.
:39:42. > :39:42.Being empathetic is fine. And we have drawn that distinction. Thank
:39:43. > :39:46.you both very much. And before we go, there's just time
:39:47. > :39:52.to bring you the latest instalment in our series of Proms
:39:53. > :39:54.performances playouts. Tonight, the Elias String Quartet,
:39:55. > :39:56.who will be playing Schubert's String Quartet
:39:57. > :39:57.at Cadogan Hall on For now though, they'll be
:39:58. > :40:01.leaving us with an extract of Mendelssohn's String Quartet No.2
:40:02. > :40:04.in A minor.