:00:00. > :00:00.Out of the slaughter of the Korean War the first
:00:07. > :00:08.Supreme Leader turned a nation into a personality
:00:09. > :00:12.The face may have changed but the cult remains the same.
:00:13. > :00:15.Except this Supreme Leader has an H bomb thought to be 10 times larger
:00:16. > :00:25.The US has accused Kim Jong Un of 'begging for war' but how much do
:00:26. > :00:31.we know about Swiss-educated lover of pizza and basketball?
:00:32. > :00:33.The chief executive of PR firm Bell Pottinger resigns
:00:34. > :00:36.amid accusations the firm stirred up racial tensions in South Africa.
:00:37. > :00:41.We speak to the companies founder Lord Bell.
:00:42. > :00:44.And they may have had 4 leaders in the last year but it's been
:00:45. > :00:46.a few months since the UK Independence Party last
:00:47. > :00:49.We'll meet the candidates the bookies think are likeliest
:00:50. > :01:03.In a crisis where language is critical the US Ambassador to the UN
:01:04. > :01:06.told a Security Council Meeting today that North Korea's test
:01:07. > :01:08.yesterday of a suspected advanced hydrogen bomb showed Kim Jong Un
:01:09. > :01:17.Today America and South Korea agreed to scrap a warhead limit
:01:18. > :01:20.on South Korea's arsenal enabling it to strike North Korea
:01:21. > :01:25.with greater force in the event of a military conflict.
:01:26. > :01:28.As if to emphasise the scaling up, South Korea earlier carried out
:01:29. > :01:32.a simulated attack on North Korea's nuclear test site.
:01:33. > :01:34.The US Defence Secretary James Mattis warned Pyongyang
:01:35. > :01:40.Amid the deafening din of international diplomacy,
:01:41. > :01:43.what do we know about the 33 year old whom some believe has pushed
:01:44. > :01:49.the world the closest it has come in years to nuclear conflict?
:01:50. > :01:51.Here's our diplomatic editor Mark Urban on what we know
:01:52. > :02:17.Kim Jong-Un, ringmaster of the North Korean circus, but a man who
:02:18. > :02:20.apparently has ordered generals who did not applaud enthusiastically
:02:21. > :02:26.enough to be executed, killed his own brother and now forges ahead
:02:27. > :02:31.with nuclear weapons, even if it threatens to impoverish his nation.
:02:32. > :02:35.Yet, and man also, who those who meet, often take two. I know people
:02:36. > :02:41.who have met him and they describe an young man, a nice sense of humour
:02:42. > :02:46.and easy to be with, very affable in all kinds of ways. Very much a
:02:47. > :02:50.family man, devoted to his wife and children, a man who enjoys the nice
:02:51. > :02:55.things in life, he entertains personal guests on his luxury yacht,
:02:56. > :03:00.usually referred up near a port in the West and he likes nice food and
:03:01. > :03:05.drink. He meet foreigners, his father never did. On New Year's Day,
:03:06. > :03:16.every foreign ambassador gets to shake his hand. That never happened
:03:17. > :03:22.under his father. Emerging from the slaughter of the Korean War, the
:03:23. > :03:30.leader does a personality cult around himself. He also began, he
:03:31. > :03:37.also Ghana quest for self-reliance. That meant developing national
:03:38. > :03:42.industries, avoiding dependence on others, even allies and limiting
:03:43. > :03:46.trade. Long-term, one can see in this obsession with national
:03:47. > :03:56.independence, a quest that would eventually lead to ballistic missile
:03:57. > :04:05.and nuclear weapons development. The succession in 1994 off his son and
:04:06. > :04:09.the present leader's father may the dynastic character of the North
:04:10. > :04:12.Korean regime clear. And inevitably, that bred up the North Korean regime
:04:13. > :04:15.clear. And inevitably, that bred a the occupation eradicating
:04:16. > :04:24.challenges, either in the party or within different branches of the
:04:25. > :04:27.nearly did not happen at all. It certainly was not a given that the
:04:28. > :04:32.leader was going to take over from his father. And there was a long
:04:33. > :04:37.gestation and quite a lot of infighting before he got the top
:04:38. > :04:42.job. By the time it came to the second transition. It was done in a
:04:43. > :04:47.hurry, because Kim Jong Il died quickly of a stroke, we believe, a
:04:48. > :04:51.heart attack, a series of medical conditions and did not look like
:04:52. > :04:56.there was much time to put in order what we in the West might call an
:04:57. > :05:02.succession. It was in the early part of the 21st-century that the pursuit
:05:03. > :05:08.of nuclear weapons became in the view of many people looking at it,
:05:09. > :05:11.unstoppable. The North Korean saw what happened to Gaddafi after he
:05:12. > :05:16.gave up his nuclear weapons programme. They saw what happened to
:05:17. > :05:21.Saddam Hussein when he did not have nuclear weapons. They drew the
:05:22. > :05:30.conclusion that nuclear weapons are necessary for regime survival. In
:05:31. > :05:35.1997, Kim Jong Il sent his son under an assumed name to an international
:05:36. > :05:41.school near the Swiss capital of Berne. Kim Jong-Un spent four years
:05:42. > :05:47.there, the North Korean ambassador attended parents evenings and
:05:48. > :05:55.classmates remember his love of pizza, basketball and American pop.
:05:56. > :05:58.Ascending to the leadership in 2010, Kim Jong-Un pursuit his boyhood
:05:59. > :06:05.idols, inviting them to visit him in Pyongyang.
:06:06. > :06:08.# Happy birthday to you. # Happy birthday to you. But this
:06:09. > :06:15.youthful leader remained mindful of the threat his older brother, once
:06:16. > :06:21.air apparent, but latterly living discreetly in Macau could pose, last
:06:22. > :06:23.year King Jong Nam was assassinated in Malaysia by killers using an
:06:24. > :06:40.nerve agent. Dispensing with internal challenges,
:06:41. > :06:45.Kim Jong-Un calculated that external threats would be best countered by
:06:46. > :06:50.speeding up the missile and nuclear weapons programme and he ignored
:06:51. > :06:56.friendly Chinese advice, Donald Trump's threats and UN sanctions
:06:57. > :07:02.alike. It is not just a vanity, it is seen as what is necessary to
:07:03. > :07:07.preserve the regime, it is partly a matter of this is what North Korea
:07:08. > :07:11.can do, this is all that North Korea can do, is produce weapons that go
:07:12. > :07:15.boom, in every other field of endeavour, they are way behind the
:07:16. > :07:23.South Koreans and the people of North Korea increasingly know that,
:07:24. > :07:26.be it economic or energy or industry or science. The South Koreans are
:07:27. > :07:31.far ahead. Building nuclear weapons and missiles is something that makes
:07:32. > :07:36.the North Koreans feel that they are in the big leagues, that they can
:07:37. > :07:47.compete with the south and that is a powerful motivation not to give it
:07:48. > :07:50.up. Many now regard nuclear weapons as the indispensable prop of the
:07:51. > :07:56.North Korean regime, but it was not always that way. In the mid-19 90s,
:07:57. > :08:02.they were ready to shelve the whole project as part of an international
:08:03. > :08:05.agreement. So what changed? And American sponsored programme of
:08:06. > :08:13.regime change in the Middle East for one thing, George W Bush was too
:08:14. > :08:18.distracted by Iraq and Al-Qaeda to pursuit the North Korean issue and
:08:19. > :08:24.Barack Obama similarly got fixated on the possibility of a deal with
:08:25. > :08:31.Iran, while the North Korean part boiled away. For a leader is still
:08:32. > :08:36.only 33 years old, pursuit of nuclear weapons has validated his
:08:37. > :08:39.grandfather's ideology of self-reliance and demonstrated the
:08:40. > :08:43.impetus of the United States. The main question now is whether Kim
:08:44. > :08:48.Jong-Un knows how to de-escalate this crisis.
:08:49. > :08:51.As recently as a few weeks ago perceived wisdom in many western
:08:52. > :08:53.capitals was that North Korea was several years away
:08:54. > :08:54.from developing long range nuclear weapons.
:08:55. > :08:57.In the last fortnight Pyongyang has shown it has long range missiles
:08:58. > :09:01.Whether it has yet found the technology to combine
:09:02. > :09:06.But how did they do it so quickly - and why didn't the predecessors
:09:07. > :09:09.of the current administration in Washington spot it was happening?
:09:10. > :09:10.Laura Rosemberger served under President Obama
:09:11. > :09:13.as National Security Council director for China and Korea,
:09:14. > :09:15.Policy on China and the Korean Peninsula.
:09:16. > :09:18.She is also a former Asia expert at the Department of State
:09:19. > :09:36.Good evening. Good evening. Why didn't you see this coming under
:09:37. > :09:40.George W Bush? Was the analysis right, where his eyes to firmly on
:09:41. > :09:46.the Middle East to worry about what Kim Jong-Un was doing and his father
:09:47. > :09:50.was doing? I think that there is a complicated series of dynamics, many
:09:51. > :09:56.of which were highlighted in nappies. I think that the Bush and
:09:57. > :10:00.Clinton administrations, the Obama administration, were focused on this
:10:01. > :10:04.challenge. When I was working at the state Department under the Bush
:10:05. > :10:09.administration, I worked on negotiations with the North Koreans,
:10:10. > :10:13.we had a programme at the time that was beginning to take apart their
:10:14. > :10:18.nuclear complex, that deal fell apart for a variety of reasons. I
:10:19. > :10:21.think one of the reasons that is important to note and was
:10:22. > :10:24.highlighted in the film was the fact that Kim Jong-Un is very different
:10:25. > :10:31.from his father and grandfather. He does not respond in the same ways.
:10:32. > :10:37.In a sense, was US intelligence for not to recognise that and was Obama
:10:38. > :10:42.too soft? I think that the American analysts and many around the world,
:10:43. > :10:45.took a while to understand how Kim Jong-Un was behaving differently to
:10:46. > :10:50.his father and grandfather. He does not respond to the same kind of
:10:51. > :10:54.external inducements that his predecessors did. He has been
:10:55. > :10:59.focused on attaining this programme and I think there is no question
:11:00. > :11:03.that what has been done to date has not worked, we would not be here if
:11:04. > :11:06.that were different. That is why think it is so critical that we need
:11:07. > :11:12.to get this right at this really dangerous point in time. Who most
:11:13. > :11:17.likely to get that right, is it the Chinese? The Chinese absolutely play
:11:18. > :11:20.an important role here and they do have a good bit of economic
:11:21. > :11:24.leveraged on the North Koreans, but the Chinese interests are always
:11:25. > :11:29.going to be different to the US interest, and the interests of Seoul
:11:30. > :11:33.and Tokyo and was very European allies, China will only be willing
:11:34. > :11:37.to go so far and this is not a problem that can simply be
:11:38. > :11:41.outsourced. It requires American leadership and a global Coalition.
:11:42. > :11:45.Let me talk to you about the technology, who do you think is
:11:46. > :11:50.helping Kim Jong-Un get the technology that is clearly
:11:51. > :11:54.developing quickly? Yes. There are details I cannot speak to you about
:11:55. > :11:59.but there has been a good bit of reporting about some of the sources
:12:00. > :12:03.for a variety of supplies for the nuclear missile programmes,
:12:04. > :12:06.including technology coming through and from China. There have been
:12:07. > :12:13.conflicting reports about where the engine parts have come from. The
:12:14. > :12:17.reality is that North Korea has developed a good bit of this
:12:18. > :12:21.internally, using financial support that they have been obtaining from
:12:22. > :12:24.different places and I think what is really important is cutting out both
:12:25. > :12:28.the money and the materials that are helping to support the growth of
:12:29. > :12:33.this programme. In one of the article she wrote earlier in the
:12:34. > :12:36.summer, and you talk very firmly about language and you looked at
:12:37. > :12:41.language patterns and you looked at the kind of language that Kim
:12:42. > :12:45.Jong-Un has used and you also said, asked the question, could Trump
:12:46. > :12:50.tweet us into a nuclear war? Trump has inherited this problem, or do
:12:51. > :12:54.you have a sense that he is making it worse? I have to credit the
:12:55. > :13:00.headline writers with that particular headline. I do think of
:13:01. > :13:05.course that language is incredibly important in this kind of scenario.
:13:06. > :13:09.One of the most important things in managing the situation with North
:13:10. > :13:14.Korea is our deterrence and it is coupled with reassurance for our
:13:15. > :13:18.allies. Both of those depend on credibility, credibility of our
:13:19. > :13:23.words, are allies knowing that our commitments are Aaron Pike when we
:13:24. > :13:30.say we will defend Seoul or Tokyo if they are attacked. Our credibility
:13:31. > :13:33.in our words to Pyongyang that they know that if we say we will act,
:13:34. > :13:36.that we will. I worry about the uncoordinated language that we are
:13:37. > :13:40.seeing out of this administration, particularly the very heart rhetoric
:13:41. > :13:44.from the President, could be sending signals that could be misinterpreted
:13:45. > :13:45.and I am worried that could lead to some kind of miscalculation. Thank
:13:46. > :13:49.you very much indeed for joining us. The Chief Executive of the PR firm
:13:50. > :13:52.Bell Pottinger has resigned following a damning report
:13:53. > :13:54.into the company's operation in South Africa for the controversial
:13:55. > :13:56.Indian magnates the Guptas who have It emerged today that
:13:57. > :14:00.James Henderson has stood down as the report, by the International
:14:01. > :14:02.law firm Herbert Smith Freehills found that the "oakbay
:14:03. > :14:04.account" for the Guptas, promoted a narrative around
:14:05. > :14:07.the existence of economic apartheid and economic emancipation,
:14:08. > :14:08.using the term "white Newsnight reported in July how
:14:09. > :14:11.Bell Pottinger stood accused of fuelling racial tensions to draw
:14:12. > :14:14.heat from the Guptas relationship Here is a part of Andrew
:14:15. > :14:30.Harding's investigation. The Guptas deny any corruption
:14:31. > :14:33.and last year hired a British public relations firm,
:14:34. > :14:34.Bell Pottinger to try Bell Pottinger sought
:14:35. > :14:38.to distract attention from their clients' troubles,
:14:39. > :14:40.by highlighting economic and racial What Bell Pottinger, as a PR agency,
:14:41. > :14:46.managed to do in South Africa They sewed back into our nation
:14:47. > :14:50.a very strong racial narrative. With the history of our country
:14:51. > :14:53.that there is, I think that is Today the Huffington Post
:14:54. > :15:10.is reporting that Bell Pottinger has been expelled from the UK's PR
:15:11. > :15:12.and Communications Agency. The expulsion will take immediate
:15:13. > :15:14.effect and constitutes "the most serious sanction"
:15:15. > :15:16.the PRCA can institute. The founder of Bell Pottinger Tim
:15:17. > :15:28.Bell resigned from his firm last Good evening to you. Good evening.
:15:29. > :15:35.The company build with your own hands this must be a devastating
:15:36. > :15:40.day? It is, very disappointing. What went wrong? I think it can best be
:15:41. > :15:44.summed up by Walter Scott, what a tangled web we weave when first we
:15:45. > :15:47.practice to deceive. You were the man who went out to South Africa to
:15:48. > :16:00.secure the steel. Two yes... You went out to secure the deal. It
:16:01. > :16:09.must be something you are very excited about. It was, to secure the
:16:10. > :16:13.deal is the wrong suggestion, I went out there with the suggestion of
:16:14. > :16:20.Chris Gane to go and meet the Guptas and discuss if they needed PR help
:16:21. > :16:25.or not. We talked for several hours and had a meeting to discuss what we
:16:26. > :16:29.would do and I came back and I said to James Henderson, the chief
:16:30. > :16:34.executive, it's an interesting piece of business but we cannot handle it
:16:35. > :16:41.because it's a conflict of interest. You are seeing new came straight
:16:42. > :16:45.back. Straight back. The problem is we have an e-mail you send on the
:16:46. > :16:50.18th of January 2016 in which you said the trip was a great success.
:16:51. > :16:55.It was a great success. We will put forward a deal whereby we will air a
:16:56. > :16:59.?100,000 a month plus costs and I will oversee this and make further
:17:00. > :17:04.reports. That's direct conflict of what you have said. It is not, it is
:17:05. > :17:10.exactly the same as I have said. This e-mail made it clear you think
:17:11. > :17:14.it is a success and you will oversee the deal. It makes it clear it was a
:17:15. > :17:21.conflict of interest. I said that very clearly. There is no mention of
:17:22. > :17:27.a conflict of interest in this e-mail of the 18th of January, it
:17:28. > :17:31.simply says, it is obvious you are excited about it and it will air on
:17:32. > :17:38.the company a lot of money. That is an e-mail I sent from South Africa
:17:39. > :17:44.before I got back. So when you got back, having said you will oversee
:17:45. > :17:49.it, what did you do? I did absolutely nothing. You came back
:17:50. > :17:56.and did nothing yet the company pursued the deal? No, the company
:17:57. > :18:01.submitted a proposal to the Guptas or the people who represented the
:18:02. > :18:04.Guptas. And basically Bell Pottinger started working on this account and
:18:05. > :18:11.developing the campaign and you will senior figure. Know I wasn't. I was
:18:12. > :18:14.the father figure of the meeting if you like. Meetings you always have
:18:15. > :18:20.to have someone senior go to them and I went to it. When you went to
:18:21. > :18:23.this meeting, you as a founder of Bell Pottinger, you come back and
:18:24. > :18:29.say there is a conflict of interest and nobody listens to you, really?
:18:30. > :18:35.Nobody listens to me, that is why I left the company. You came back in
:18:36. > :18:38.January but we know in April 2016 we have seen a further e-mail in which
:18:39. > :18:46.you are offering further advice so you are still involved. You are
:18:47. > :18:51.saying in April, I had a stroke early Easter and I was away from
:18:52. > :18:55.work for many weeks. I went back to the office occasionally and there
:18:56. > :18:59.are occasions when I joined in the conversation, sometimes I did not.
:19:00. > :19:03.You can attack me all you like but it's not going to work, I had
:19:04. > :19:07.nothing to do with getting this account. But you did have everything
:19:08. > :19:14.to do, you made the initial contact and work in South Africa... You said
:19:15. > :19:19.you were going to oversee this and it seems everybody else takes the
:19:20. > :19:24.blame or is given the blame except you. That's very interesting. I
:19:25. > :19:29.think the exact opposite of the situation. So you don't think James
:19:30. > :19:32.Henderson is to blame at all and he should not have resigned? Of course
:19:33. > :19:37.he is to have blame and he should have resigned. He was directly
:19:38. > :19:41.involved in the deal, he knew of all the conversations and what was
:19:42. > :19:47.involved, he knew them all at the time... You are a popular man
:19:48. > :19:52.tonight obviously. Can I just say, one of the key things said about
:19:53. > :19:56.this, on the problem with the account as far as you were concerned
:19:57. > :19:59.seems to be there was a conflict of interest because you had other
:20:00. > :20:04.clients in South Africa. The problem was not that you were running a
:20:05. > :20:10.campaign that had dubious morality. That is not what the situation was.
:20:11. > :20:16.We were asked to do a campaign to mod economic empowerment and that is
:20:17. > :20:20.what we were asked to promote. You were talking about white monopoly
:20:21. > :20:24.capital and those things are divisive. Like Monopoly capital was
:20:25. > :20:29.not mentioned by us but other people. Let's be very clear... Let's
:20:30. > :20:35.look at the history of Bell Pottinger during this, a 30-year-old
:20:36. > :20:38.company and the truth is you have represented people from Pinochet to
:20:39. > :20:47.as mar Assad, which makes a suggestion you do not have a model
:20:48. > :20:51.compass. I did the postapartheid elections, I am aware of the
:20:52. > :20:58.problems in South Africa. I am talking about other clients. I did a
:20:59. > :21:05.job for Assad, setting up the first lady 's office. And worked for
:21:06. > :21:08.Pinochet as well. I did not, I worked for the Pinochet foundation
:21:09. > :21:14.and the barrister that represented them. Is this curtains for Bell
:21:15. > :21:20.Pottinger? It is but it's nothing to do with me. The company is a busted
:21:21. > :21:25.flush? I think it's getting close to the end, you can try to rescue it
:21:26. > :21:30.but it will not be very successful. You must take some responsibility?
:21:31. > :21:36.This is 18 months ago, people write stuff 18 months later journalists
:21:37. > :21:42.write stuff 80 months later and I am supposed to react? I resigned from
:21:43. > :21:46.the company in August last year, published my resignation and I said
:21:47. > :21:51.one of the reasons I was leaving was because of the Guptas account. For
:21:52. > :21:56.somebody who is such a senior figure in the industry, you ran the
:21:57. > :21:59.company, it does not strike anyone as possible that you could be
:22:00. > :22:03.innocent in all of this? SHEAMUS' THEME Well I am sorry but I am. I do
:22:04. > :22:07.not care if you believe it or not the fact is is that is the
:22:08. > :22:10.situation. Tim Bell, thank you very much.
:22:11. > :22:13.The fact Ukip has elected and lost two new leaders in the 15 months
:22:14. > :22:16.since Nigel Farage stood down is perhaps proof of the size
:22:17. > :22:21.At the end of the month members will select a new chief
:22:22. > :22:24.in an election which has been described as the battle
:22:25. > :22:28.This evening there was a hustings with several of the contenders
:22:29. > :22:30.in Central London including the bookies' favourite
:22:31. > :22:33.He could be described as the continuity candidate,
:22:34. > :22:37.But on his heels is a woman who founded Sharia Watch
:22:38. > :22:39.and has branded Islam evil, and according to Mr Farage,
:22:40. > :22:42.if elected, could finish the party. Earlier today Anne Marie Waters
:22:43. > :22:44.tweeted that UKIP candidates were trying to silence the voice
:22:45. > :22:48.within the party against Islamicisation.
:22:49. > :22:52.The MEP Mike Hookem has resigned as UKIP's deputy
:22:53. > :22:55.whip over her candidacy, while the chief whip MEP
:22:56. > :22:59.Stuart Agnew is such a fan he's described her as Joan of Arc.
:23:00. > :23:05.She is with me, and so is Peter Whittle.
:23:06. > :23:13.Good evening to both of you. Is not much which divide you is there? You
:23:14. > :23:19.have described you want sharia law, you want sharia court outlawed,
:23:20. > :23:24.nothing much between you? The incredibly important thing is the
:23:25. > :23:29.idea that somehow are talking about Islam is a new thing which is
:23:30. > :23:33.completely untrue. Since I have been in Ukip I have talked about the need
:23:34. > :23:38.for one law for all and indeed therefore we should not have sharia
:23:39. > :23:45.I have talked about FGM and all these issues which are pressing ones
:23:46. > :23:50.for the public. Do you believe as Anne Marie Waters believes, that
:23:51. > :23:55.Islam is evil? I don't and I don't think it's the sort of approach we
:23:56. > :23:59.should be taking. The fact is this is an incredibly important issue
:24:00. > :24:05.which we should actually as a party be taking on but it should not be
:24:06. > :24:09.the only one. Anne Marie Waters, 18 out of 20 NEP's say they will leave
:24:10. > :24:16.the party if you are elected and that could be a disaster. First of
:24:17. > :24:21.all I don't think all of them will leave. There's a lot of
:24:22. > :24:26.misunderstanding and what I am seeing, they think I have two
:24:27. > :24:30.heads... You have said is one is evil. Yes and I don't see why that
:24:31. > :24:35.is such an outrageous thing to say. We ought to be able to say whatever
:24:36. > :24:40.we like about religion and the problem we have got is we pussyfoot
:24:41. > :24:44.around, spend so much time agonising over not seeing the wrong thing and
:24:45. > :24:47.this is what is putting the public off. This is how millions of people
:24:48. > :24:54.in the country feel and they are waiting for someone to articulate it
:24:55. > :25:00.for them. But if everybody leaves, will people leave, do people
:25:01. > :25:08.subscribed to that view of Islam? We are looking at this to the wrong
:25:09. > :25:11.prism. It's a straightforward prism. The main priority of people in Ukip
:25:12. > :25:15.at the moment and that includes those standing is Brexit. That is
:25:16. > :25:19.why we were founded and it's the crucial part. That was the one note
:25:20. > :25:25.you dead and so now you are moving on from Brexit... Not at all, we
:25:26. > :25:30.have to save our democracy because at the moment there is a slow
:25:31. > :25:34.betrayal going on in terms of Brexit and negotiations and all these
:25:35. > :25:39.transition deals, that's the crucial priority for anyone who takes over a
:25:40. > :25:44.Ukip now and I think you'll find most of the members think that. If
:25:45. > :25:48.most members think that why are you banging on about Islam? Most of the
:25:49. > :25:56.members may think that a lot of them support me. It is not either or.
:25:57. > :26:00.Ukip cannot survive on Brexit alone. What we have to do is top plainly
:26:01. > :26:04.and openly and honestly with an issue that millions of people, about
:26:05. > :26:08.an issue that millions of people in this country cared about whether we
:26:09. > :26:11.like it or not. It's not up to politicians what issues we deal
:26:12. > :26:16.with, it's up to the public to tell us what we want to deal with. You
:26:17. > :26:23.were a close associate of Tommy Robinson in the EDL, would you
:26:24. > :26:27.welcome him into Ukip? He does not have any interest... But would you
:26:28. > :26:31.welcome him? There is leaders discretion but I would leave it up
:26:32. > :26:36.to party members, for the record I would not lift the ban on groups
:26:37. > :26:40.such as the BNP. Wait a minute, it is clear we are the only party that
:26:41. > :26:45.has the sort of things in our Constitution. We are not the EDL.
:26:46. > :26:49.It's not up to weather the members want him or not it is in the
:26:50. > :26:54.Constitution as simple as that, it's not going to do any good for this
:26:55. > :26:58.party if those people start to join these parties. A lot of people
:26:59. > :27:02.support those sort of people, a lot of people think the same way. And
:27:03. > :27:07.have nobody representing them. The fact they are dismissed in this way
:27:08. > :27:12.and described as those sorts of people... The party which has been
:27:13. > :27:19.discussed here by Anne Marie is this the party you think Ukip is? Ukip
:27:20. > :27:23.was built on getting out of the EU. Upcoming it will still be that issue
:27:24. > :27:29.but there are massive other issues. I have always concentrated on the
:27:30. > :27:32.fact we have got, Kirsty, we have got to rebuild British confidence,
:27:33. > :27:39.British identity, British sense of self. Do you agree there should be a
:27:40. > :27:44.temporary ban on immigration? I do not agree to that. It's not a point
:27:45. > :27:52.of that. We have to impose the right laws we have at the moment, they are
:27:53. > :27:55.not being imposed, we need a strict Australian style points system and
:27:56. > :28:00.we've been quite clear on all those sorts of things but the fact is if
:28:01. > :28:05.we take those kind of positions, the fact is we become if you like more
:28:06. > :28:10.like a campaign group and not a political party. Then let's move
:28:11. > :28:19.away from that, do you support capital punishment? Now I don't.
:28:20. > :28:22.Neither do I. It is criminal laws and it's too complex to leave that
:28:23. > :28:27.decision... And what is the position for either of you, if you win will
:28:28. > :28:32.you serve under Peter, if you win would you want Peter as your deputy?
:28:33. > :28:41.I do not know what I would do after I went, if I win, or if I don't win.
:28:42. > :28:45.Would you have Anne Marie as your deputy? No, this is a party with a
:28:46. > :28:48.potentially big future and the fact is that what we have to put out the
:28:49. > :28:56.public at the moment. Thank you very much indeed.
:28:57. > :28:58.Vladimir Putin claims that 4,000 Russian citizens
:28:59. > :29:00.are fighting in Syria on the side of so-called Islamic State.
:29:01. > :29:03.Many of them are from the Russian republic of Dagestan in the volatile
:29:04. > :29:07.Per head of population, 10 times more men, women
:29:08. > :29:09.and children have left Dagestan for Syria than have left
:29:10. > :29:11.Belgium, which is Europe's jihadi feeder capital.
:29:12. > :29:12.The BBC's Russia correspondent Steve Rosenberg travelled
:29:13. > :29:21.into the mountains of Dagestan to find out why.
:29:22. > :29:26.They once believed here that this was the edge of the Earth.
:29:27. > :29:32.Remote, but breathtakingly beautiful.
:29:33. > :29:39.But in these mountains, there is one thing more
:29:40. > :29:52.I've come to this village, to hear one man's story.
:29:53. > :29:57.This man tells me his wife was drawn to radical Islam, and then one day,
:29:58. > :30:01.without telling him, she took their two daughters,
:30:02. > :30:05.ten-year-old Fatima and the three-year-old,
:30:06. > :30:11.and left for Syria to join Islamic State.
:30:12. > :30:14.TRANSLATION: It was my wife's uncle and brother who came around
:30:15. > :30:26.And what right did she have to take my children away like that
:30:27. > :30:35.Artur was determined to get his children back.
:30:36. > :30:41.He borrowed money and flew to Istanbul in Turkey.
:30:42. > :30:45.There he met up with a guide who agreed to smuggle him into Syria.
:30:46. > :30:51.By now, he had received a tip-off by text message,
:30:52. > :30:57.from a relative of his wife, telling him where his children were.
:30:58. > :31:02.A sharia court even granted him custody, but leaving
:31:03. > :31:10.To get home, they would have to escape.
:31:11. > :31:19.Like these people, fleeing Syria by night.
:31:20. > :31:25.TRANSLATION: I took my little girl in my arms and told my
:31:26. > :31:28.As we ran, I tore my trousers on some barbed wire.
:31:29. > :31:35.The Turkish border guards were just 50 metres away
:31:36. > :31:40.We dived into an irrigation ditch and hid there for 20 minutes.
:31:41. > :31:49.We got away from there through long grass.
:31:50. > :31:52.That is when I realised that we were safe.
:31:53. > :31:54.I could see the moon and the cornfields.
:31:55. > :31:57.In Istanbul, the Russian consulate issued the family
:31:58. > :32:07.Father and daughters flew home, but what of his wife?
:32:08. > :32:09.TRANSLATION: I don't know how she is.
:32:10. > :32:18.This spring, my youngest daughter asked me, how come everyone else has
:32:19. > :32:23.But I know the girls are communicating with their
:32:24. > :32:28.I told them not to, but that will not stop them.
:32:29. > :32:39.It is not only from this house, this village, that people
:32:40. > :32:45.Dagestan has become a key recruiting ground for Islamic State.
:32:46. > :32:47.The authorities here say that 1200 people from the area have
:32:48. > :32:51.That means that relative to its population, this part
:32:52. > :32:54.of Russia has produced ten times more jihadists than Belgium,
:32:55. > :33:05.which is Europe's top source of fighters for the caliphate.
:33:06. > :33:13.Why have people been leaving here for Syria?
:33:14. > :33:16.A sense of hopelessness is one reason.
:33:17. > :33:19.This is one of the poorest parts of Russia, with high unemployment
:33:20. > :33:29.It is a fertile soil for extremist ideology.
:33:30. > :33:31.Marat says he had been brainwashed by Islamist
:33:32. > :33:40.He had abandoned his pregnant wife in Dagestan for jihad in Syria.
:33:41. > :33:42.He has now fled ISIS and agreed to talk to me,
:33:43. > :33:53.TRANSLATION: I felt it was my duty to wage holy war against infidels.
:33:54. > :33:57.My wife was against the idea, I told her I was only going for a month.
:33:58. > :34:01.But when I got to Syria, I called her and said,
:34:02. > :34:19.It's not really a holy war, it's just Muslims fighting Muslims.
:34:20. > :34:23.Because he is on the terrorist watch list in Russia,
:34:24. > :34:25.he has gone into hiding here, in Southern Ukraine.
:34:26. > :34:30.He insists he is not a threat to any country.
:34:31. > :34:33.TRANSLATION: I have no intention of carrying out the kind of attacks
:34:34. > :34:39.Running people over with a car or stabbing them.
:34:40. > :34:42.Neither have others like me who left Islamic State.
:34:43. > :34:48.We all came to realise that ISIS was on the wrong path.
:34:49. > :34:52.Recently, ISIS has stepped up attacks in Russia.
:34:53. > :34:55.In Siberia, police shot dead a 19-year-old man,
:34:56. > :34:58.a native of Dagestan after he had gone on a rampage, stabbing
:34:59. > :35:06.A few days later in Dagestan itself, a policeman was stabbed to death.
:35:07. > :35:15.The authorities in Dagestan say they are doing all they can to fight
:35:16. > :35:17.terrorism, but some here believe the methods used are
:35:18. > :35:26.In this town, I am taken to see a mosque.
:35:27. > :35:28.It was used by a fundamentalist brand of Islam until
:35:29. > :35:41.He tells me that police had been monitoring the building.
:35:42. > :35:45.This man used to pray in that mosque.
:35:46. > :35:48.He admits that up to six members of the congregation had left
:35:49. > :35:55.for Syria, but shutting the mosque, he says, is no solution.
:35:56. > :35:57.When the young people are here with us, we can
:35:58. > :36:02.But close down the mosque and the young people leave,
:36:03. > :36:07.who knows where they go and what they are doing?
:36:08. > :36:09.Far from being the edge of the earth, Dagestan
:36:10. > :36:17.It is a battle between different interpretations of Islam.
:36:18. > :36:19.One that preaches tolerance and supports the authorities
:36:20. > :36:21.and a radical Islam, trying to take root here
:36:22. > :36:35.Now - Charles Darwin was a self seeking charlatan -
:36:36. > :36:37.that's the basic premise of a new biography, not
:36:38. > :36:40.by someone steeped in science, but by the writer, critic and lover
:36:41. > :36:43.His contention was that his theory of evolution -
:36:44. > :36:46.the survival of the fittest - was not a scientific certainty
:36:47. > :36:49.but rather a form of religion itself which which espouses
:36:50. > :36:59.Damning with faint praise AN Wilson describes Darwin
:37:00. > :37:01.as "among the foremost experts on the earthworm".
:37:02. > :37:03."There is no evidence he believed
:37:04. > :37:12.And for good measure, he adds his belief that
:37:13. > :37:17."Darwin was a direct and disastrous influence."
:37:18. > :37:18.Reviewers - including some scientists -
:37:19. > :37:20.have been highly critical of the book.
:37:21. > :37:23.Mr Wilson is here, and I'm also joined by Doctor Simon Underdown,
:37:24. > :37:25.a research fellow in biological anthropology at Oxford
:37:26. > :37:44.Good evening to both of you. Controversy sells books. But
:37:45. > :37:48.deliberately are controversial in order to get this flying off the
:37:49. > :37:55.book shelves. It did not cross my mind that I would depart from more
:37:56. > :37:58.or less the orthodoxy that prevails in the British and American
:37:59. > :38:04.universities. It was only as I came to read about the subject that I
:38:05. > :38:08.realise there is tremendous divergence of opinion between
:38:09. > :38:12.scientist. I did not say he was a charlatan... That was my word. I do
:38:13. > :38:17.not think he was a charlatan, I think he was a great naturalist,
:38:18. > :38:24.probably the greatest since plainly. I do think some of his ideas,
:38:25. > :38:28.particularly when they are transferred into social aspects of
:38:29. > :38:32.the survival of the fittest has had a disastrous history. I know you
:38:33. > :38:37.write about this Simon and you defend him, he was profoundly
:38:38. > :38:45.racist, his great grandfather Mayday... During the campaign to
:38:46. > :38:51.apologist Avery, am I not a man and a brother, of an African man in
:38:52. > :38:56.chains? I think Charles Darwin has never answer would have been no. It
:38:57. > :39:00.is perfectly possible for someone who is not a scientist to have a
:39:01. > :39:04.rational view? I am not entirely sure where to begin. We could
:39:05. > :39:08.sharpen -- start of the assertion that he was a racist, there is
:39:09. > :39:17.nothing in his written documentation to back that up. He does make a
:39:18. > :39:21.couple of statements in his journals which could be regarded in modern
:39:22. > :39:25.light is somewhat controversial, but what we see with Darwin is his
:39:26. > :39:29.progression of ideas that change over time and suggest that if he was
:39:30. > :39:38.presented with that question, he would say no... In the descent of
:39:39. > :39:44.man, Darwin quite clearly states that savages, brown people, people
:39:45. > :39:48.such as the human beings that he met do not have a proper language, he
:39:49. > :39:51.says they have hardly any vocabulary. When their missionaries
:39:52. > :40:01.went there, they discovered a complex language. That is an
:40:02. > :40:06.interesting point. The missionaries he refers to, did find a complex
:40:07. > :40:10.language but Darwin's ideas... They were very juvenile. They changed
:40:11. > :40:14.over time. When you look at the science that changes, you see a man
:40:15. > :40:18.whose ideas are incredibly sophisticated, they change and the
:40:19. > :40:23.beauty of his work, which Andrew has not come to grips with in the book,
:40:24. > :40:27.he is suffering from profound misunderstanding of the way
:40:28. > :40:31.evolution works, his ideas are based on testable data, all of the
:40:32. > :40:38.components of natural selection can be taken apart and tested and put
:40:39. > :40:42.back together. The great appeal of Darwin, the theory of natural
:40:43. > :40:46.selection is its simplicity. To say I have not understood it is absurd.
:40:47. > :40:54.It is terribly easy to understand, the trouble with it, Darwin himself
:40:55. > :40:59.says that the existence of complex forms, cannot really be explained by
:41:00. > :41:07.his theory and if his theory cannot be shown to demonstrate... For
:41:08. > :41:10.example, how and I comes into being, then the whole theory collapses.
:41:11. > :41:18.That is really what has happened. If it is not evolution... Of course
:41:19. > :41:23.evolution takes place, of course it does, but it takes place within
:41:24. > :41:29.species and the idea that one species is evolved into another is
:41:30. > :41:35.simply not demonstrated. Durrant talks about, this is another point
:41:36. > :41:40.he has misunderstood. He talks about the way that variations build-up.
:41:41. > :41:43.Because you do not believe something, does not mean you
:41:44. > :41:45.misunderstood it. Thank you both very much indeed.
:41:46. > :42:04.Good evening. Expect a humid start to your day, particularly across
:42:05. > :42:09.much of England and Wales but this weather front that will bring a
:42:10. > :42:12.change, marks a change to pressure conditions. We will see sunshine and
:42:13. > :42:13.by the middle of the afternoon across