:00:07. > :00:09.After Antigua and Barbuda, in one hour Hurricane Irma will do
:00:10. > :00:17.Wooden homes versus 180 mph winds and 20-foot waves.
:00:18. > :00:21.Everyone who can has moved to the highest ground,
:00:22. > :00:25.as one of the strongest Atlantic storms in history causes havoc.
:00:26. > :00:28.We'll ask the islands' governor what he can do in the face
:00:29. > :00:32.The Eurocrats are ganging up on David Davis again,
:00:33. > :00:35.suggesting he's not very good at negotiating with them.
:00:36. > :00:37.Meanwhile the Eurosceptics are suggesting it doesn't matter,
:00:38. > :00:43.because Angela Merkel will be the one to cut the deal.
:00:44. > :00:48.It is down to Mutti to then actually leave the process.
:00:49. > :00:50.Now, she'll say, oh, I'm not leading this, and
:00:51. > :00:51.officially she'll be behind the scenes.
:00:52. > :00:54.But we all know that what Germany wants here, Germany will
:00:55. > :01:01.One of Labour's most prominent Remainers and a Tory leaver
:01:02. > :01:05.are here to pick the bones out of that one.
:01:06. > :01:06.Also tonight, is devout religion and political
:01:07. > :01:14.We'll ask the House of Commons chaplin, Rose Hudson Wilkin.
:01:15. > :01:17.And he's one of the most famous photographers in the world.
:01:18. > :01:19.Mario Testino tells us his most embarrassing secret.
:01:20. > :01:23.Useless in the kitchen, useless with cameras.
:01:24. > :01:52.I a very short time, the full force of Hurricane Irma
:01:53. > :01:54.is due to batter across the British Overseas Territory
:01:55. > :01:57.The little group of Caribbean islands' 35,000 residents have
:01:58. > :02:00.already seen the devastation wrought by the Category 5 storm
:02:01. > :02:02.in St Martin, Antigua, the BVI and Barbuda,
:02:03. > :02:03.where it flattened 90% of the territories' buildings.
:02:04. > :02:06.We'll be hearing shortly from some of those who are waiting nervously
:02:07. > :02:11.But first, what - if anything - does the intensity of this year's
:02:12. > :02:13.hurricane season tell us about the occurrence
:02:14. > :02:18.Irma is the strongest Atlantic storm in a decade,
:02:19. > :02:21.and comes hot on the heels of Hurricane Harvey, which wreaked
:02:22. > :02:25.Some have asked whether climate change might be having an impact.
:02:26. > :02:27.Or does extreme weather sometimes just happen?
:02:28. > :02:39.Seen from space, you could almost say Irma looks beautiful.
:02:40. > :02:41.From ground level, though, she has a very different face.
:02:42. > :02:44.The Caribbean island of St Martin, hit by 185mph winds,
:02:45. > :02:48.and Irma is still going, heading perhaps for the US mainland.
:02:49. > :02:51.It is what we sometimes rather helplessly refer
:02:52. > :02:54.to as an act of God - no-one to blame, nothing to be done
:02:55. > :02:59.but pick through the wreckage, mourn the dead and count the cost.
:03:00. > :03:01.But with two major hurricanes one after another, is this
:03:02. > :03:04.perhaps something else, an act of man, or at least
:03:05. > :03:09.The Greek president today was categoric -
:03:10. > :03:16.this WAS climate change, and President Trump must act.
:03:17. > :03:18."I speak directly to the United States," he said,
:03:19. > :03:20."because they the victims of climate change for the second
:03:21. > :03:29.But are the scientists as certain as the politicians?
:03:30. > :03:32.From observations alone, we will never be able to say
:03:33. > :03:34.that this is the event which would only have happened
:03:35. > :03:36.in a changing climate, because if you drill down
:03:37. > :03:43.to the individual storm, all extreme events are unique.
:03:44. > :03:48.However, we can say, and we need observations and climate
:03:49. > :03:52.models to do these studies, but we have climate models nowadays
:03:53. > :03:55.that CAN do this kind of job, we can say that the likelihood
:03:56. > :03:57.of certain events occurring has changed due
:03:58. > :04:03.And definitely the very extreme rainfall is one of the things
:04:04. > :04:09.where the likelihood has increased due to climate change.
:04:10. > :04:12.This year in the North Atlantic, there have so far been 11 named
:04:13. > :04:14.storms, of which six have been hurricanes.
:04:15. > :04:17.The average between 1981 and 2010 was six named storms,
:04:18. > :04:24.and 2.6 hurricanes - so we appear to be well up.
:04:25. > :04:27.In terms of wind speed, Irma is the joint second-strongest
:04:28. > :04:29.on record, at 185mph, eclipsed only by Hurricane Alan
:04:30. > :04:37.in 1980, with a maximum wind speed of 190mph.
:04:38. > :04:40.And with two and a quarter days at Category 5 intensity so far,
:04:41. > :04:44.Irma is the fourth longest duration hurricane on record,
:04:45. > :04:46.but still a whole day behind Hurricane Cuba,
:04:47. > :04:51.which in 1932 blew for three and a quarter days.
:04:52. > :04:54.The mechanism by which a warming climate might cause more hurricanes
:04:55. > :05:02.The fuel that drives hurricanes is water vapour,
:05:03. > :05:05.and the water vapour is evaporated off the sea surface and the warmer
:05:06. > :05:07.the sea surface, the more water vapour is evaporated
:05:08. > :05:10.and there's more energy to drive the storms.
:05:11. > :05:13.So, with global warming, the sea is warmer and there's more water
:05:14. > :05:16.being evaporated and there's more of the fuel to drive the big storms.
:05:17. > :05:20.And if we look at this graph produced by the US
:05:21. > :05:21.National Oceanographic and Atmospheric
:05:22. > :05:30.year, it does show a steady uptake of average sea temperatures.
:05:31. > :05:32.However, there are many other factors at play
:05:33. > :05:34.in the formation of a storm, some of which actually become LESS
:05:35. > :05:40.There is a competing effect, which is that if we also see higher
:05:41. > :05:42.temperatures higher up in the atmosphere, that
:05:43. > :05:51.And so we cannot say that we will see more intense
:05:52. > :05:53.hurricanes full-stop in a changing climate.
:05:54. > :05:58.But with the hurricanes that have been analysed so far,
:05:59. > :06:00.there have been a number that have intensified due to higher
:06:01. > :06:03.temperatures, but there is also a number that have weakened due
:06:04. > :06:09.But certainly, what we can definitely say is that
:06:10. > :06:12.the associated rainfall in them, there we see the effects of climate
:06:13. > :06:21.It's true that with 49.32 inches of rain, Hurricane Harvey is the US
:06:22. > :06:33.Tropical Storm Amelia in 1978 dumped 48 inches and Hurricane Easy
:06:34. > :06:39.And Tropical Storm Claudette in 1979 dropped 45 inches of rain.
:06:40. > :06:44.And none of these would presumably be blamed on climate change.
:06:45. > :06:47.So, we can't say a specific storm now is due to climate change,
:06:48. > :06:50.but we can say, if we look over decades, we'll be able
:06:51. > :06:54.to see that the intensity of the storms is going up.
:06:55. > :06:56.What has caused the storm that brought them so much misery
:06:57. > :06:59.is probably not of much interest to the people in the Caribbean,
:07:00. > :07:01.having to rebuild their homes and lives.
:07:02. > :07:04.In the genesis of storms, science can't offer certainty -
:07:05. > :07:12.just probabilities and trends over time.
:07:13. > :07:20.So how are people in the path of Irma preparing for her arrival?
:07:21. > :07:22.John Freeman is the governor of Turcs and Caicos.
:07:23. > :07:25.Before we came on air I spoke to him via Skype.
:07:26. > :07:28.I started by asking him about his concerns following the devastation
:07:29. > :07:32.suffered by the islands nearby. Absolutely, Kirsty, I mean we've
:07:33. > :07:34.seen what's happened to the British Overseas Territories
:07:35. > :07:36.further to the south, But it's also a cause for making
:07:37. > :07:41.the best preparations we can. As I speak, the winds
:07:42. > :07:43.are getting up pretty strongly. The outer tentacles of Irma reaching
:07:44. > :07:47.us, the palm trees are bending over. What preparations have
:07:48. > :07:55.people been making? Well, we've been preparing
:07:56. > :07:58.for some little while now. But the main things
:07:59. > :08:01.is that we wanted to make sure we did not have people on the island
:08:02. > :08:04.who didn't need to be here, so we've been rushing forward
:08:05. > :08:07.with working with the airlines to get particularly
:08:08. > :08:09.tourists off the island. We have our shelters open
:08:10. > :08:20.and operating for people to go into, particularly those from vulnerable
:08:21. > :08:23.areas, some of whom have also been in any case encouraged to move away
:08:24. > :08:26.from areas where there's going to be flooding, because the sea surge
:08:27. > :08:29.is notably high as it approaches us, We've also ordered the evacuation
:08:30. > :08:32.and secured the evacuation, apart from a few people who didn't
:08:33. > :08:36.want to move, of two islands And you're all moving
:08:37. > :08:38.to higher ground? I understand the storm surge
:08:39. > :08:41.could be as much as 20 feet, and as you say,
:08:42. > :08:43.you're very low-lying. The point is, however it comes in,
:08:44. > :08:50.it's going to flood over quite significant areas,
:08:51. > :08:52.and people will move Our shelters obviously have moved
:08:53. > :08:58.up into higher ground. And some people don't
:08:59. > :09:00.always want to move, but we are encouraging
:09:01. > :09:03.them to do so. We've been chasing around this
:09:04. > :09:05.morning trying still to get people in and effectively,
:09:06. > :09:08.we are beginning to close down now on the islands, saying to everyone,
:09:09. > :09:10.get off the streets, don't drive around any more,
:09:11. > :09:12.prepare yourselves So finally, tell me,
:09:13. > :09:16.what is the atmosphere I think people genuinely
:09:17. > :09:21.are very nervous. There is a strong sense
:09:22. > :09:25.of pulling together, but there People here know what
:09:26. > :09:32.hurricanes can do. They have seen what's been happening
:09:33. > :09:35.in the Leeward Islands. So of course people are rightly
:09:36. > :09:39.and understandably frightened. But we have to be
:09:40. > :09:42.frightened but purposeful. Dr Freeman, thank
:09:43. > :09:44.you very much indeed. David Davis, the UK's Brexit
:09:45. > :09:50.negotiator, has been taking As the second reading
:09:51. > :09:56.of the EU Withdrawal Bill began in Westminster,
:09:57. > :09:58.it emerged that Jean-Claude Juncker, president of the European
:09:59. > :10:00.Parliament, had questioned both his stability and his
:10:01. > :10:02.accountability at a meeting For good measure, Mr Juncker today
:10:03. > :10:10.added that he believed the Brexit Mr Davis' counterpart,
:10:11. > :10:13.Michel Barnier, also expressed his frustration,
:10:14. > :10:15.warning he thinks the talks over the UK's exit bill
:10:16. > :10:17.are going backwards and branding Britain's proposals on the Irish
:10:18. > :10:24.border as unacceptable. Some believe such language
:10:25. > :10:28.from Europe's top two is more than boisterous positioning,
:10:29. > :10:32.and a sign that Brussels is genuinely losing patience -
:10:33. > :10:34.boding badly, you might think, Here's our political
:10:35. > :10:50.editor Nick Watt. The seasons, they are
:10:51. > :10:52.a-changing, and changing at a faster pace than our
:10:53. > :10:56.politics. As autumn descends on us, the first
:10:57. > :10:59.deadline in the Brexit talks hoves into view at the end of next
:11:00. > :11:02.month, and Brussels is beginning to TRANSLATION: I've been very
:11:03. > :11:09.disappointed by the UK position, as expressed last week,
:11:10. > :11:20.because it seems to be backtracking on the original commitment of the UK
:11:21. > :11:23.to honour its international commitments, including
:11:24. > :11:25.the commitments post-Brexit. His boss is none too
:11:26. > :11:27.happy, either, as these minutes from a meeting
:11:28. > :11:33.in July make clear. Mr Juncker expresses concern
:11:34. > :11:36.about the question of the stability and accountability of the UK
:11:37. > :11:39.negotiator and his apparent lack of involvement, which risks
:11:40. > :11:41.jeopardising the success of the Those barbed remarks were met
:11:42. > :11:48.with short shrift in It sounds to me like a kind
:11:49. > :11:57.of bar-room annoyance, a few drinks and away you go,
:11:58. > :12:02.you get a bit annoyed. Over here at the Brexiter
:12:03. > :12:04.department, they're brushing off the fuselage
:12:05. > :12:11.from Brussels. One senior figure told me that
:12:12. > :12:13.David Davis would only be worried if he were being
:12:14. > :12:20.portrayed as a pussycat. Across the Channel,
:12:21. > :12:22.Michel Barnier is in a different mood -
:12:23. > :12:31.is so frustrated with the Brexit secretary that EU's chief negotiator
:12:32. > :12:36.is prepared to put a question mark over the entire talks
:12:37. > :12:39.by feeling next month that insufficient progress has been made.
:12:40. > :12:41.Some people in Britain believe still we can
:12:42. > :12:42.never set every thing at the
:12:43. > :12:45.same time together and make a conclusion until March 2019.
:12:46. > :12:46.But in the negotiations about a free-trade
:12:47. > :12:53.We literally have to settle if it should be a very good, constructive
:12:54. > :12:55.relationship in the future, it needs much more
:12:56. > :12:58.time, as we know come of another trade negotiations.
:12:59. > :12:59.So what exactly is David Davis's game?
:13:00. > :13:03.I've just tendered my resignation from Parliament to the
:13:04. > :13:10.That will trigger a process which will lead to a by-election.
:13:11. > :13:12.The Brexit Secretary has always been something of a
:13:13. > :13:15.subversive figure who has made a career out of challenging
:13:16. > :13:19.authority, and that's exactly what he's doing now.
:13:20. > :13:22.David Davis believes he is successfully undermining the central
:13:23. > :13:28.tenet of Michel Barnier's negotiating strategy, which is that
:13:29. > :13:31.the UK cannot discuss its future trading relationship with the EU
:13:32. > :13:36.until it has cleared up the terms of its departure.
:13:37. > :13:40.David has managed to drop back into the ring, play
:13:41. > :13:43.them at their own game, which is, "But you keep asking about Ireland
:13:44. > :13:46.and the borders and the trade arrangements - we can't settle any
:13:47. > :13:50.of that until we settle the trade arrangements.
:13:51. > :13:53."So we can't discuss anything - let's get to the trade
:13:54. > :13:55.arrangements and then we will know what we can
:13:56. > :13:56.do about the border in Northern Ireland."
:13:57. > :13:59.And that final bit in the last week has been the big
:14:00. > :14:02.expose to the nonsense of we can settle this come about all
:14:03. > :14:11.And then there is the question of Germany's role after its
:14:12. > :14:17.David Davis dismisses Michel Barnier's October
:14:18. > :14:20.deadline for an assessment of the talks, on the grounds that just one
:14:21. > :14:23.date matters - the formation of the new German government, probably
:14:24. > :14:31.Once she has got her domestics in order,
:14:32. > :14:33.she re-enters the ring, and it is down
:14:34. > :14:39.She will say, I'm not leading this, but we all know that
:14:40. > :14:41.what Germany wants here, Germany
:14:42. > :14:46.will get, in the European Union context.
:14:47. > :14:53.Angela Merkel I know very well is very much for this strategy
:14:54. > :14:59.and she was one of the people behind this strategy.
:15:00. > :15:01.She will stay Chancellor and will not change her
:15:02. > :15:11.When autumn turns to winter, Britain hopes
:15:12. > :15:13.for a change of heart, but the current message from Berlin
:15:14. > :15:22.never compromise on fundamental rules of the EU.
:15:23. > :15:36.I should, of course, just say that Jean-Claude Juncker is the President
:15:37. > :15:37.of the commission. Nick, the Brexit secretary
:15:38. > :15:39.was in the Commons today for the second reading
:15:40. > :15:42.of the EU Withdrawal Bill, but the Government has been facing
:15:43. > :15:47.another challenge on Brexit That's right. Pressure also from
:15:48. > :15:52.Eurosceptic MPs who began circulating a letter saying that the
:15:53. > :15:59.transition period, immediately after we leave the EU, should not be used
:16:00. > :16:02.to create a soft Brexit. This comes as there is a debate in the cabinet
:16:03. > :16:06.about how to go about that transition. David Davis said in the
:16:07. > :16:09.Commons today that that should be close to EU membership, but the
:16:10. > :16:15.details and the timing of that transition have not been worked out
:16:16. > :16:18.in Cabinet, and there are Cabinet minister allies who fear that the
:16:19. > :16:23.Prime Minister is listening very carefully to those Eurosceptic MPs
:16:24. > :16:28.who want that transition not to look like EU membership but to be as far
:16:29. > :16:32.away from EU membership as possible. But I spoke to a Remain member of
:16:33. > :16:36.the Cabinet who said that the Prime Minister has agreed to their
:16:37. > :16:39.phrasing - there should be no cliff edge Brexit which means when we
:16:40. > :16:44.leave, we barely noticed. We noticed it when we come out of the
:16:45. > :16:51.transition. And this was before they went into the Commons today? Yes,
:16:52. > :16:56.David Davis, whilst he was taking the questions, he said all but. And
:16:57. > :17:00.of course, it's not necessarily just trouble from the right, it is from
:17:01. > :17:04.the left is well? We have a big moment with Keir Starmer Stena
:17:05. > :17:09.Shadow Brexit secretary a few weeks ago, who said that the UK should be
:17:10. > :17:13.within the single market. And then in an interview in the Financial
:17:14. > :17:16.Times today, he talked about how that relationship with a customs
:17:17. > :17:22.union could continue after the transition period. Trustingly,
:17:23. > :17:27.silence from Jeremy Corbyn and a number of Brexit Labour MPs are
:17:28. > :17:31.saying that they will not go along with its. What is interesting is
:17:32. > :17:35.that the Labour position is very similar to the EU view on how a
:17:36. > :17:41.transition should be, which is basically membership minus the
:17:42. > :17:48.votes. And as you saw, I interviewed that Bertrand CDU MEP from Germany,
:17:49. > :17:51.close to Angela Merkel, and he said to me, he describes the Labour
:17:52. > :17:59.approach as a good paper. Interesting to see how that goes
:18:00. > :18:05.down. Indeed. Hilary Benn is a Labour MP, former Shadow Foreign
:18:06. > :18:08.Secretary and chair of the Brexit select committee. He campaigned for
:18:09. > :18:15.Remain. Charlie Elphicke voted Remain but has since come a member
:18:16. > :18:22.of the Tory European Research Group, which is believed to have been
:18:23. > :18:26.behind today's letter. Charlie Elphicke, did you put your name to
:18:27. > :18:30.that letter? It was not for me to decide but I thought the most
:18:31. > :18:33.important thing about it, it was not aimed at the Government public was
:18:34. > :18:37.aimed at the Labour Party, who have shifted their position dramatically
:18:38. > :18:40.since the election. They stood on a manifesto of leaving the single
:18:41. > :18:45.market and the customs union and now they're talking about a transition
:18:46. > :18:49.period. But the European Research Group, behind the latter, suggested
:18:50. > :18:55.you for tonight's programme, and they are in favour of a hard Brexit.
:18:56. > :18:59.It is not to do with Labour, it is to do with your concerns about
:19:00. > :19:05.people like Philip Hammond? I don't accept that at all. Any fermentation
:19:06. > :19:11.period needs to be over by the time of the next general election, and
:19:12. > :19:15.then we can move on as a country. -- any implementation period. That is
:19:16. > :19:20.different from the Labour position, which is a transition without any
:19:21. > :19:25.end date at all. So it would be a defined transition period beyond
:19:26. > :19:30.which there is no customs union? We have a clear instruction from the
:19:31. > :19:33.British people to end uncontrolled immigration from the European Union.
:19:34. > :19:37.That means leaving the single market. We want to be able to strike
:19:38. > :19:43.trade deals around the world, and our membership of the customs union
:19:44. > :19:47.is clearly not compatible with that. Let's just bring Hilary Benn. This
:19:48. > :19:51.letter was directed at you? Well, the Conservative Party is having its
:19:52. > :19:55.own arguments and difficulties. I think the real problem the
:19:56. > :20:03.Government has got, apart from the very strong criticism of the EU
:20:04. > :20:07.Withdrawal Bill which we saw today, is, they are having to bring their
:20:08. > :20:12.Brexiteers along and make them realise a fundamental truth - it
:20:13. > :20:17.will not be possible to negotiate this all singing, all dancing
:20:18. > :20:22.bespoke trade and market access agreement in the 10.5 months that
:20:23. > :20:24.we've got left. Therefore we will HAVE to have transitional
:20:25. > :20:31.arrangements. Nobody is suggesting that there won't be. Well, there's
:20:32. > :20:36.been a long argument within the Conservative Party about whether
:20:37. > :20:40.there should be, and we've wasted so much time over the 15 months since
:20:41. > :20:45.the referendum result getting to the point where what is absolutely
:20:46. > :20:49.obvious, namely, there WILL have to be transitional arrangements, is
:20:50. > :20:52.finally being recognised, but it's a difficult message for some
:20:53. > :20:59.conservatives to swallow. Is it not Labour which is actually undermining
:21:00. > :21:04.Brexit, listening to Keir Starmer? Absolutely not. We say very clearly
:21:05. > :21:08.in our manifesto, we accept the outcome of the referendum, we voted
:21:09. > :21:11.in favour of the Article 50 legislation, Tanya will leave the
:21:12. > :21:16.European Union at the end of March 2019. The question now is not
:21:17. > :21:19.whether we are leaving, the question is, what kind of relationship we're
:21:20. > :21:25.going to have with the European Union after we've left? Tonight the
:21:26. > :21:28.boss of Jaguar Land Rover said that any prospect of leaving without a
:21:29. > :21:33.transition would be a disaster. And that is the view expressed in many,
:21:34. > :21:39.many people in business. And during that time, if we can see minimal
:21:40. > :21:43.change after March 2019, it is going to mean staying in the customs union
:21:44. > :21:48.and the single market until the final deal is negotiated. Keir
:21:49. > :21:51.Starmer is saying, remain in a customs union within the single
:21:52. > :21:55.market without that is what he said in his article for the transition.
:21:56. > :21:59.Out of the question? What you're hearing is the sound of Labour
:22:00. > :22:03.figures who want to remain in the European Union by stealth - this is
:22:04. > :22:08.hotel California, you can check out but you can never leave. We are
:22:09. > :22:11.saying we should get on and have a clear sense of direction that we're
:22:12. > :22:16.going to leave the European Union by the time of the next general
:22:17. > :22:22.election. So, what we had over the last 48 hours is, we've had sight of
:22:23. > :22:25.one of the plans the Government has for immigration, and the thing about
:22:26. > :22:31.that is, Hilary Benn, there's been a deafening silence from Labour on
:22:32. > :22:34.those plans, which, of course, the Government says is just one of a
:22:35. > :22:40.number of solutions, and people in the hospitality industry are up in
:22:41. > :22:45.arms - Labour has not been up in arms, Labour has not been vocal? I
:22:46. > :22:47.accept that one of the messages from the referendum result was that
:22:48. > :22:51.people were concerned about free movement, and when we leave the
:22:52. > :22:54.European Union, free movement will come to an end and we will have to
:22:55. > :23:05.agree what our immigration policy is going to... Hang on... The point
:23:06. > :23:08.which Yvette Cooper made was this - if the Government wants to have a
:23:09. > :23:14.conversation about what future immigration policy is going to be
:23:15. > :23:17.like a, don't have leaked drafts of papers appearing, start the debate
:23:18. > :23:23.about how we're going to get the people that we need to keep the
:23:24. > :23:30.British economy strong. And that's why we need to have a reasonable
:23:31. > :23:34.transition. The very basic point is, you have to have something to
:23:35. > :23:37.implement in order to have an in ferment patient period. At the
:23:38. > :23:46.moment you're not going to conclude the negotiations in the time. Jeremy
:23:47. > :23:51.Corbyn has said absolutely nothing, he's being completely absent from
:23:52. > :23:59.this conversation. It's a case, isn't it, that his hero, your
:24:00. > :24:06.father, who abhorred Europe as a capitalist plot, is exactly what
:24:07. > :24:11.Jeremy Corbyn thinks - you don't disagree with that? Well, the
:24:12. > :24:17.referendum results show that the nation is split down the middle. The
:24:18. > :24:21.challenge for us is, we are leaving. Isn't challenge for Jeremy Corbyn to
:24:22. > :24:23.step up to the plate? We have to decide what kind of future
:24:24. > :24:27.immigration policy we are going to have and what it is possible to
:24:28. > :24:31.negotiate with the European Union so that we don't end up damaging our
:24:32. > :24:36.economic prospects, because a lot rests on this. As your report
:24:37. > :24:40.demonstrated, we are six months into the negotiation, there hasn't been
:24:41. > :24:46.agreement reached. But if there hasn't been agreement reached, you
:24:47. > :24:48.with the the Labour leader, he has been absolutely nowhere in this
:24:49. > :24:55.conversation, because his heart is not in it. No, because Keir Starmer
:24:56. > :25:01.set out on behalf of the shadow cabinet, including Jeremy Corbyn,
:25:02. > :25:04.what our policy is and what transitional arrangements should
:25:05. > :25:07.look like. And that is where the Government is going to have to end
:25:08. > :25:15.up, whether Brexiteers like it or not.
:25:16. > :25:18."A thoroughly modern bigot" - that was just one epithet used today
:25:19. > :25:20.to describe Tory backbencher Jacob Rees-Mogg after he told
:25:21. > :25:22.Good Morning Britain yesterday that he was opposed to abortion
:25:23. > :25:24.in all circumstances, including rape and incest.
:25:25. > :25:27.The MP, who was this week named by activists as the favourite
:25:28. > :25:30.to take over from Theresa May in a straw poll by Conservative
:25:31. > :25:32.Home, said life begins at the point of conception.
:25:33. > :25:34.He also says that, as a Catholic, he disagrees
:25:35. > :25:38.Life is sacrosanct and begins at the point of conception.
:25:39. > :25:44.Say you were Prime Minister, and a woman is raped
:25:45. > :25:49.by a family member, right, you would say she had absolutely no
:25:50. > :25:59.No, she would have a right under UK law.
:26:00. > :26:00.But you wouldn't agree with that right?
:26:01. > :26:04.No, but what's your personal opinion?
:26:05. > :26:06.My personal opinion is that life begins at the point
:26:07. > :26:08.of conception, and abortion is morally indefensible.
:26:09. > :26:12.Well, I wouldn't, because that wouldn't be the law of the land.
:26:13. > :26:15.So, if someone's deeply-held religious views conflict
:26:16. > :26:17.with secular values, should that be a barrier
:26:18. > :26:20.And might that depend on the importance of religion
:26:21. > :26:28.This week, in a survey for the National Centre
:26:29. > :26:30.for Social Research, for almost the first time, more
:26:31. > :26:34.53% - describe themselves as having no religion.
:26:35. > :26:36.I'm joined by the DUP MP Iain Paisley Junior,
:26:37. > :26:38.Rose Hudson-Wilkin, who is Chaplain to the Speaker of the House
:26:39. > :26:42.of Commons, and by the Guardian columnist Polly Toynbee.
:26:43. > :26:56.First of all, Rose Hudson-Wilkin, do you think that Jacob Rees-Mogg, as a
:26:57. > :26:59.religious man, was in than to say what he said he should not be barred
:27:00. > :27:04.from high office? We live in a liberal democracy. Freedom of
:27:05. > :27:07.speech, freedom of conscience, and so it is important for anyone in any
:27:08. > :27:11.particular role to be able to express that this is what they feel
:27:12. > :27:18.or this is what they believe. I do not believe that it should bar them
:27:19. > :27:22.from leadership of any kind. But what about if the consensus goes the
:27:23. > :27:31.other way, does that make a difference? What do you mean. If the
:27:32. > :27:36.consensus, for example, is views about incest and rape, that
:27:37. > :27:40.particular position, is a view which is not necessarily held by the
:27:41. > :27:43.majority of the population - does that matter? Well, the population
:27:44. > :27:49.will soon do something about that. They will say, I'm sorry, we don't
:27:50. > :27:53.want to have this person, but I'm talking specifically about religious
:27:54. > :28:00.views, which should not be apart from leadership, any kind of
:28:01. > :28:04.leadership. It is a form of discrimination, isn't it, to say
:28:05. > :28:12.that somebody who holds deep religious views is not suitable to
:28:13. > :28:16.hold high office? Yes, he wouldn't make windows into men's souls, what
:28:17. > :28:21.people believe is their own business - what matters is there policies and
:28:22. > :28:25.their politics. And often those two get in the way. If you wanted to
:28:26. > :28:31.advocate restoring the kind of abortion restrictions that he wants,
:28:32. > :28:34.you probably would not get elected. There is nothing to stop him
:28:35. > :28:37.standing for office. The Conservative Party might well be mad
:28:38. > :28:41.enough to select him. He has made it clear of course that that would not
:28:42. > :28:45.be a platform on which he would stand, he's made that clear. It's a
:28:46. > :28:49.personal, deeply held view. In this day and age, is that acceptable or
:28:50. > :28:54.not? We live in a democracy, presumably all views, whatever their
:28:55. > :28:58.stripe or religion, should be acceptable as long as they are not
:28:59. > :29:03.hate speak or violence or whatever? I think gay people might take it is
:29:04. > :29:07.hate speak to say that they should not be allowed to get married and do
:29:08. > :29:11.various things. But I agree with Rose, it's up to the electric to
:29:12. > :29:16.decide who they would want to vote for. I think he wouldn't have a hope
:29:17. > :29:20.in hell, I hope not, partly because those views are part of a much wider
:29:21. > :29:24.package of where he stands. He is on the very, very far right. People
:29:25. > :29:29.think he's a rather charming, facetious man who is full of jokes
:29:30. > :29:33.and... But in fact he's very far right, he's a climate change denier,
:29:34. > :29:40.he has written an article in the Telegraph the other day...
:29:41. > :29:47.We know what happened to Tim Farron after the election. He said he felt
:29:48. > :29:51.that to be a committed Christian and leader of the party was impossible.
:29:52. > :29:57.I'm sorry he came to that conclusion, and I'm sorry about the
:29:58. > :30:03.pressure that was placed upon him, but the reality is that one's face
:30:04. > :30:09.is not a coat that we occasionally put on depending on what the weather
:30:10. > :30:14.is like. It is who you are. So to ask someone to leave their faith at
:30:15. > :30:18.the door, it is just not right. And we need to guard against a level of
:30:19. > :30:24.intolerance that we are beginning to see in this country in relation to
:30:25. > :30:39.people's face. That is interesting, isn't it? About Tim Farron, it is he
:30:40. > :30:42.was the leader of the party, and he was very out of kilter with the
:30:43. > :30:49.sentiment of his own party and the people he was trying to appeal to
:30:50. > :30:53.buy being anti-gay. I think if you are in the Conservative Party, a lot
:30:54. > :30:57.of Conservative Party members who are elder and more socially
:30:58. > :31:01.conservative might well support you... He doesn't believe in gay
:31:02. > :31:05.marriage. That is different from being anti-gay. I think a lot of gay
:31:06. > :31:08.people would say there is no difference, there is a route
:31:09. > :31:14.prejudice expressing itself in one particular way. Is there something
:31:15. > :31:17.about Christianity that we feel we can take a pop at people with deep
:31:18. > :31:21.religious faith? That at the moment is what we are seeing in this
:31:22. > :31:26.country. I'm not saying you are doing that. But we are seeing a
:31:27. > :31:29.level of intolerance that says Christianity, let's kick them into
:31:30. > :31:35.touch, or kick them out of the public space, and actually, I
:31:36. > :31:39.applied for this role as chaplain to the Speaker of the House of Commons
:31:40. > :31:44.because I actually believe that faith ought to be in the public
:31:45. > :31:48.square. It is who we are. And if you look at our history and where we are
:31:49. > :31:55.coming from in this country, the Christian faith contributed lots of
:31:56. > :32:02.positives. And I think for us to throw it away because there are some
:32:03. > :32:09.raving secularists, I think we are barking up the wrong tree. And you
:32:10. > :32:16.have to be a raving secularist to say that there are bishops sitting
:32:17. > :32:21.in the House of Lords... I have to stop you there. We were expecting to
:32:22. > :32:24.have been joined by the DUP MP Ian Paisley Junior, but while we have
:32:25. > :32:28.been on air, he has pulled out following a story about him on the
:32:29. > :32:33.front of tomorrow's Daily Telegraph which alleges that he accepted
:32:34. > :32:38.holidays worth ?100,000 from a country years now attempting to
:32:39. > :32:40.secure a post Brexit trade deal with.
:32:41. > :32:41.He's everybody's favourite Peruvian, if you don't
:32:42. > :32:45.Mario Testino is the fashion photographer who's as well known
:32:46. > :32:48.He's commanded the covers of the glossies as surely
:32:49. > :32:51.as the women he's immortalised - fashion royalty including Kate Moss,
:32:52. > :32:53.and real royalty, most notably the late Diana,
:32:54. > :32:58.But Testino's new passion is a museum he's created in Lima
:32:59. > :32:59.to showcase artistic talent from his homeland.
:33:00. > :33:02.To help pay for it, he's selling his private art collection,
:33:03. > :33:04.including works by Cindy Sherman and Wolfgang Tilmans,
:33:05. > :33:09.He's been giving our culture editor Stephen Smith
:33:10. > :33:21.an exclusive tour of his favourite things.
:33:22. > :33:26.A view of the maestro photographer as you've never seen him before.
:33:27. > :33:31.And I lived with this above my bed for a long time.
:33:32. > :33:36.Of course, I am a decorator at heart, hence the
:33:37. > :33:41.But the interesting thing of these photographs is that this
:33:42. > :33:43.material comes from Morocco, this comes from Los Angeles,
:33:44. > :33:45.this comes from Naples, this comes from Berlin,
:33:46. > :33:57.And this comes from Croydon, of course.
:33:58. > :34:03.I mean, we mustn't forget that Kate belongs to a new time
:34:04. > :34:05.of this country as well, because I remember back
:34:06. > :34:07.when I arrived, people didn't mix that much.
:34:08. > :34:16.And Kate belongs to the generation of the New England.
:34:17. > :34:19.Mario Testino is parting with the artworks he's collected.
:34:20. > :34:22.They're going under the hammer at Sotheby's to raise money
:34:23. > :34:24.for his own museum back home in Lima, which promotes
:34:25. > :34:35.But in a funny way, I'm enjoying much more the museum and what I can
:34:36. > :34:37.do to help my community and participate, because I'm getting
:34:38. > :34:40.older, and staying with the youth is important, it's exciting.
:34:41. > :34:42.And through the museum, we can expose younger
:34:43. > :34:51.And I want to expand, and I want to expand
:34:52. > :34:53.the education programme, I want to expand the
:34:54. > :35:00.I almost want to expand it to the world.
:35:01. > :35:03.Mario Testino is in demand at least as much as the supermodels
:35:04. > :35:11.She looks as though she has a square meal now and again.
:35:12. > :35:13.But what does Testino say about super skinny
:35:14. > :35:19.We would have to change the age of the girls,
:35:20. > :35:22.which I think that our business has become much more
:35:23. > :35:28.I photograph women, girls last so long, you know?
:35:29. > :35:30.Kate Moss, I'm still photographing her, I'm
:35:31. > :35:34.The diet, the exercise, the way we are doing it has changed.
:35:35. > :35:37.But then designers also would have to probably change a little bit how
:35:38. > :35:40.they make their clothes, because often, you can't put them
:35:41. > :35:49.It's like they don't fit if you're not of a certain size.
:35:50. > :35:51.Having learned his trade and made his name in Britain,
:35:52. > :35:54.Testino says he's been astonished to photograph its royal family.
:35:55. > :35:58.Perhaps nobody made Harry's mother look more relaxed,
:35:59. > :35:59.vivacious, then Testino, whose images of Diana
:36:00. > :36:14.And I think that the love came back with those photographs,
:36:15. > :36:17.because then the British people knew me, and they are, you know,
:36:18. > :36:26.And the good thing is that they can never take them away.
:36:27. > :36:29.I mean, I almost want to cry when I talk about it,
:36:30. > :36:32.because it's emotional, you know, and I don't like to talk
:36:33. > :36:35.about these things because I think I am a photographer.
:36:36. > :36:42.I get asked to come and do an assignment.
:36:43. > :36:47.You know, she has her children, her children have to decide everything.
:36:48. > :36:50.I like to be respectful, but of course it's an amazing person
:36:51. > :36:53.that I've been given to have been the one to have documented and made
:36:54. > :37:00.it like the way that people remember her.
:37:01. > :37:02.If you fancy yourself a budding Testino, but you can't use
:37:03. > :37:08.He can't use a camera either, it turns out.
:37:09. > :37:12.Useless in the kitchen, useless with cameras.
:37:13. > :37:25.Even with the autofocus camera, my assistants sometimes have to take
:37:26. > :37:29.the thing so that it doesn't move around from out of focus.
:37:30. > :37:31.I mean, I'm like, I'm just incapable.
:37:32. > :37:34.But I know when something looks good or not, and how
:37:35. > :37:49.Have you tried to do quite outrageous things with your shoots
:37:50. > :37:51.and have the client say, no, it's too much?
:37:52. > :37:55.They're all naked, they're all on fire.
:37:56. > :37:59.We're selling clothes, it's something I've heard a lot.
:38:00. > :38:03.I'm often taking people's clothes off.
:38:04. > :38:09.Not everybody's made well, you know, and when they are,
:38:10. > :38:12.Well, we are, luckily, but not everyone is.
:38:13. > :38:34.Mario Testino. Just before we go, tomorrow morning's front pages. The
:38:35. > :38:40.Telegraph, the story about Ian Paisley Junior, the MP, the 100,000
:38:41. > :38:45.gift and the Brexit radio, that is Sri Lanka, Prattley, that is the
:38:46. > :38:52.allegation. The Financial Times, may's Brexit strategy hit by
:38:53. > :38:55.Juncker. And a picture of Prince George looking nervous before his
:38:56. > :39:03.first day at school in the Times, Minister in firing line over MPs'
:39:04. > :39:05.Brexit letter. And in the Daily Mail, as Huw insults the British
:39:06. > :39:08.people yet again, don't treat us with contempt.
:39:09. > :39:11.We leave you with good news for fans of Jurgen Otto,
:39:12. > :39:15.Mr Otto's mission in life is to capture the mating dance
:39:16. > :39:17.of obscure species of Australian peacock spider on film
:39:18. > :39:24.Of course it's not quite as good as his masterpiece,
:39:25. > :39:26.which we leave you with - the legendary Maratus Speciosus.
:39:27. > :40:22.Hello. Low pressure is firmly in charge of our weather for Friday,
:40:23. > :40:26.meaning a windy day for the UK competitor Thursday, and plenty of
:40:27. > :40:29.showers around for parts of southern England, Wales and into East Anglia.
:40:30. > :40:30.Spells of rain,