:00:00. > :00:07.So-called Islamic State was driven from its own capital last week.
:00:08. > :00:10.But hundreds of Brits had gone out to fight with them,
:00:11. > :00:14.and so hundreds of Brits may now choose to return.
:00:15. > :00:18.What sort of welcome should we offer them?
:00:19. > :00:21.One minister talked of the need to kill them, some want
:00:22. > :00:24.the British fighters kept out, some want them to be
:00:25. > :00:31.We'll ask if we can distinguish between the dangerous
:00:32. > :00:38.The great Airbnb debate - it's created a market in tourist
:00:39. > :00:40.lets for spare rooms, but has it created a deregulated
:00:41. > :00:46.So there are wards in Westminster where one in ten properties are
:00:47. > :00:52.permanently in the short-let sector and that's not good.
:00:53. > :00:57.This Labour MP has resigned a post on the Commons equalites committee
:00:58. > :00:59.for stupid comments he made in his early 20s.
:01:00. > :01:02.Should we forgive errors made 15 years ago?
:01:03. > :01:07.Will anybody make it into public office if we don't?
:01:08. > :01:14.And as Lady Trumpington says farewell to the Lords,
:01:15. > :01:17.we ask her how she dealt with sexual harrassment in her day.
:01:18. > :01:24.I think you curse them and it's quite possible to slap their face,
:01:25. > :01:40.We don't know how many people have left Britain to fight
:01:41. > :01:43.with so-called Islamic State over the last few years.
:01:44. > :01:46.There is talk of 850 of whom half may have already come back,
:01:47. > :01:48.That would leave hundreds still out there.
:01:49. > :01:53.But if we don't really know how many, we can't know all their names.
:01:54. > :01:55.And with Isis now pushed out of its own self-declared
:01:56. > :01:58.capital city, Raqqa, we don't know where
:01:59. > :02:00.the remaining ones are, or what they are currently
:02:01. > :02:04.The only thing we do know is that we need some approach
:02:05. > :02:10.One idea would be to ease them back into mainstream society.
:02:11. > :02:12.But one government minister, Rory Stewart, said yesterday that
:02:13. > :02:14.in most cases, they'll need to be killed.
:02:15. > :02:17.He's clarified that he meant that they would fight
:02:18. > :02:20.to the death, not that we should illegally assassinate them.
:02:21. > :02:23.But Mr Stewart has prompted quite a debate.
:02:24. > :02:32.Our diplomatic editor Mark Urban has been looking at it.
:02:33. > :02:37.In the rubble of the self-proclaimed caliphate live the corpses
:02:38. > :02:46.Some infamous figures like Sally Jones were reportedly
:02:47. > :02:58.killed in the fight for Raqqa, but the fate of many is unknowable,
:02:59. > :03:01.so in terms of the IS group, how many UK jihadists joined?
:03:02. > :03:03.More than 800 tasted life in Syria and Iraq
:03:04. > :03:08.with various groups, and many died, a feat
:03:09. > :03:10.with various groups, and many died, a fate
:03:11. > :03:12.which apparently the Government wishes would befall them all.
:03:13. > :03:15.And we have to make sure that if they ever do return from Iraq
:03:16. > :03:18.and Syria they do not pose a future threat to our national security,
:03:19. > :03:21.but they have made their choice - they have chosen to fight
:03:22. > :03:24.for an organisation that uses terror and the murder of civilians
:03:25. > :03:33.How many are still with IS, that's very hard to know,
:03:34. > :03:38.Figures compiled by the BBC suggest that of the 800 plus
:03:39. > :03:42.who went out, at least 74 are believed to have died.
:03:43. > :03:47.Around 400 are thought to have returned home,
:03:48. > :03:49.with a few dozen of them convicted, but hundreds
:03:50. > :03:57.The majority of the foreign fighters, and we will come to find
:03:58. > :04:01.this out in the days ahead as we continue to work
:04:02. > :04:03.through and clear Raqqa, but the majority of them, we
:04:04. > :04:08.assess, were killed in the battle at Raqqa.
:04:09. > :04:12.Raqqa, as an example, was a place where Isis could freely plot,
:04:13. > :04:16.organise, resource, launch and export their terror.
:04:17. > :04:19.They can't do that any more, and there are so few places now.
:04:20. > :04:25.As a matter of fact, 95% of the territory that
:04:26. > :04:28.Isis once held is now underneath partner controls.
:04:29. > :04:33.Now the caliphate is almost extinguished,
:04:34. > :04:39.There are many possible routes, from Turkey to Iran,
:04:40. > :04:50.How likely are returnees to get back undetected?
:04:51. > :04:53.I think that the UK agencies are probably going to be operating
:04:54. > :04:56.on the presumption that they can't be confident, that they will do
:04:57. > :05:04.their best but there can be no certainty that they are going
:05:05. > :05:06.to identify and detain all those who might merit that.
:05:07. > :05:14.There are difficult judgments for the security service.
:05:15. > :05:18.Since some of them may have realised the folly of
:05:19. > :05:23.their ways, and of course the summer's attacks in the UK didn't
:05:24. > :05:26.involve anyone known to have been in Syria and Iraq -
:05:27. > :05:31.It all adds to the complexity of the task facing MI5.
:05:32. > :05:35.As well as those we are looking at today, risk can also come
:05:36. > :05:41.from returnees from Syria and Iraq, and also the growing pool of over
:05:42. > :05:43.20,000 individuals that we've looked at in the past,
:05:44. > :05:53.MI5 has means of watching the returnees and grading
:05:54. > :06:01.If you look at the individuals who went sort of early on, let's say
:06:02. > :06:04.2011, 2012, the sort of first travellers out there, one could
:06:05. > :06:07.argue, or one could believe the stories that they were going out
:06:08. > :06:10.there very much to go and, you know, protect the Syrian people.
:06:11. > :06:14.If you're going in 2015 to go join the Islamic
:06:15. > :06:18.State, then you're joining a group that publicly has been decapitating
:06:19. > :06:21.aid workers, that has been launching attacks in the West, that has
:06:22. > :06:25.conducted all sorts of heinous activity, and so when you're looking
:06:26. > :06:32.at an individual who has gone out then, you are clearly going to be
:06:33. > :06:39.more concerned, than maybe someone who went a lot before.
:06:40. > :06:47.Some of the IS fighters slipped away. They are hunted now but among
:06:48. > :06:48.them, or the ones who have already returned, will long worried the
:06:49. > :06:52.counterterrorist community. Richard Barrett is a former British
:06:53. > :06:54.diplomat and intelligence officer, now a terrorism expert involved
:06:55. > :07:07.in countering extremism. What is your guess as to what
:07:08. > :07:10.proportion of the returnees comeback regretting having gone and what
:07:11. > :07:21.proportion come back fired up with a mission to attack home? It is very
:07:22. > :07:28.hard to assess. About half have come back, so about 400, maybe. That is
:07:29. > :07:34.probably true in Denmark and Sweden. In other countries in the EU it is
:07:35. > :07:39.more like 30%. But EU wide, there has been about 5000 people go and
:07:40. > :07:44.therefore you have 1200 coming back, that is quite a lot of people to
:07:45. > :07:48.deal with. He might think, even if only 1% of the dangers and field
:07:49. > :07:52.with the ideology, if you like, what do you do? Do you lock all of them
:07:53. > :07:57.up or can you tell the difference between the ones who come back ready
:07:58. > :08:03.to just reintegrate into normal life? You have to make that
:08:04. > :08:08.assessment. How do you make that assessment? You have to examine when
:08:09. > :08:12.they went and why they went, because the date it is important. And why
:08:13. > :08:17.they came back and when they came back, because that is also
:08:18. > :08:22.important. If they came back about 2014 when the caliphate was
:08:23. > :08:25.declared, you might say they were disillusioned and disagreed with
:08:26. > :08:30.what was going on and made a mistake. But if they lasted until
:08:31. > :08:34.the fall of Raqqa, they were obviously more committed to the
:08:35. > :08:38.cause. But that doesn't give you the answer either because they may have
:08:39. > :08:43.gone wanting to join the Islamic state, not necessarily to train to
:08:44. > :08:47.come back as a domestic terrorist, they are two different things in my
:08:48. > :08:50.view. But having been subject to the ideology, they may come back all
:08:51. > :08:59.fired up, ready to do something stupid here. What do you think our
:09:00. > :09:03.approach should be? The great thing about our country and the great
:09:04. > :09:06.thing about terrorism is that we have this stick to our values and we
:09:07. > :09:11.mustn't let terrorism undermined those values. Therefore, people who
:09:12. > :09:17.comeback must be treated according to the rule of law. Must be treated
:09:18. > :09:21.like any person suspected of criminal activity. There has to be a
:09:22. > :09:25.criminal investigation and during that investigation, what do you do
:09:26. > :09:34.with them? If you put them in prison, is it legal? But if they go
:09:35. > :09:38.in, they might radicalise other people in prison. If you leave them
:09:39. > :09:46.outside, and they do something, people will say, what the hell was
:09:47. > :09:48.going on. The answer is going to be expensive, leaving them out and
:09:49. > :09:54.watching what they are doing. I don't know how many officers it
:09:55. > :09:58.takes to follow one person, but we are talking probably more than we
:09:59. > :10:02.have got? It is enormously resource intensive. This is what all
:10:03. > :10:07.governments in Europe understand and that is why there is little action
:10:08. > :10:13.so far to address this problem of returnees, so hopefully they won't
:10:14. > :10:18.come back. I was going to say, that is the hope. A lot of people are
:10:19. > :10:23.saying it would be better if they have died out there, is that your
:10:24. > :10:27.view? It isn't going to happen, some of them are going to come back, many
:10:28. > :10:34.are back already. What will you do now? You can't escape the problem by
:10:35. > :10:38.the hoping it doesn't care. I suppose you might call it social
:10:39. > :10:44.work, which you intensively coach and look after them, nurture them to
:10:45. > :10:48.a peaceful existence. Does it work, is that more expensive than
:10:49. > :10:52.surveillance? It will work with some, but I don't think it will
:10:53. > :10:56.change the mindset of people, but it will change their behaviour. It is
:10:57. > :11:02.important to disengage them from violent activity and change their
:11:03. > :11:08.views on how society should be. We all have our own view on how society
:11:09. > :11:13.should be and it is only when we impact our fellow citizens with
:11:14. > :11:17.violence, we make a problem. As a former senior intelligence person,
:11:18. > :11:21.how useful are the ones who returned, comeback disillusioned, if
:11:22. > :11:26.you like, are they ready to shop their mates, is it how that works?
:11:27. > :11:29.Some may do that and that will be invaluable if they can point out the
:11:30. > :11:36.people who were members of the Islamic state and people like Jihadi
:11:37. > :11:40.John, we want to identify those people quickly because they have
:11:41. > :11:43.committed serious crimes. You don't want them wondering about free.
:11:44. > :11:47.Richard Barrett, thank you very much.
:11:48. > :11:50.The Labour MP Jared O'Mara, who won his Sheffield Hallam back
:11:51. > :11:52.in June by beating Nick Clegg in that very studenty seat,
:11:53. > :11:55.has resigned his place on the Commons Equalities Committee
:11:56. > :11:57.over some comments of his which surfaced today.
:11:58. > :12:00.They'd been left on various internet forums.
:12:01. > :12:03.Apologies for any offence, but I'll give you a taste of the remarks -
:12:04. > :12:06.there was reference to having an orgy with the pop band
:12:07. > :12:09.Girls Aloud, there were comments on fat women and he referred to gays
:12:10. > :12:13.as fudge packers, and driving up the Marmite motorway.
:12:14. > :12:19.As I say, he has apologised and resigned from the Equalties
:12:20. > :12:22.Committee, but here's the thing - these comments were made 15 years
:12:23. > :12:31.Should we really hold him to account now for those views?
:12:32. > :12:35.Or should there be a statute of limitations on speech crimes,
:12:36. > :12:38.trails of which are inevitably left all over the web?
:12:39. > :12:41.It's a problem that the millennials might find cropping up
:12:42. > :13:00.We have asked two political writers to talk this through with us. First
:13:01. > :13:06.on Jarrod O'Mara himself, should he have resigned? Absolutely. No
:13:07. > :13:09.question, he cannot be seen to be taking a qualities issue seriously
:13:10. > :13:14.before he has really explained and thought through his previous
:13:15. > :13:22.comments. He has apologised for them and they were 15, 13 years ago?
:13:23. > :13:26.Parliament is supposed to hold our trust. It's not just the women and
:13:27. > :13:31.equality is select committee, it isn't just a body to scrutinise
:13:32. > :13:37.bills and talk about law, it represents the body of the British
:13:38. > :13:40.people as we face up to what are very serious issues of
:13:41. > :13:44.discrimination in the world today. It is impossible for us to have
:13:45. > :13:50.faith in that committee while it holds people like Jarrod O'Mara, and
:13:51. > :13:54.people like Philip Davies, the controversial Tory MP. We're not
:13:55. > :13:59.here to discuss Philip Davie is. He's not here to defend himself. Do
:14:00. > :14:08.you agree with it? I don't think he should lose the Labour whip and he
:14:09. > :14:12.shouldn't stand down as an MP. But it's not just any select committee,
:14:13. > :14:17.it is about women and equalities. I am sure we will come back to that in
:14:18. > :14:23.a second, and he was in his early 20s when he made those comments. If
:14:24. > :14:29.you are a child, you are an idiot, but at 22, 23, you are an adult.
:14:30. > :14:32.Does this reflect his current personality and views towards
:14:33. > :14:38.homosexuality or women? I don't think we have seen enough to prove
:14:39. > :14:44.they don't. There is a question to answer about his views today based
:14:45. > :14:48.on those comments back then? Until we see otherwise, yes. He's not
:14:49. > :14:52.someone who is known for his great feminism. There are other
:14:53. > :14:58.controversies over him. I don't fundamentally disagree, but Jess
:14:59. > :15:02.Phillips, chair of the women's Parliamentary Labour Party said she
:15:03. > :15:08.talked to him today and she does accept his apology and things he was
:15:09. > :15:13.genuine. She is not known for being a tolerance of misogyny.
:15:14. > :15:19.Tell me what the rules are. What age do we forgive, what age do you start
:15:20. > :15:25.having to take response to the? If he was 17, we would probably forgive
:15:26. > :15:29.his crimes, but 22, do be or not? What are the rules? Set them out
:15:30. > :15:33.because this will come out time and time again. That is the thing. I'm
:15:34. > :15:36.not entirely sure and that is why I think the Jared O'Mara story is
:15:37. > :15:45.interesting and we will look back on it. We have not really had this
:15:46. > :15:47.until now. These young people who grew up on the Internet, became
:15:48. > :15:51.MPs... Have left their trail all over the place. Of course, and if
:15:52. > :15:59.someone said some stupid things at 14-15, I would say that was clear,
:16:00. > :16:03.unless it was quite extreme Nazi stuff, you know, it would have to be
:16:04. > :16:10.really a torrent, and anything from sort of mid-20s on words I think is
:16:11. > :16:17.clear-cut again, but early 20s, I think it is a bit weird,
:16:18. > :16:22.case-by-case basis. Into just both of us as millennial writers who have
:16:23. > :16:26.no problems putting ourselves over the Internet, and there are things
:16:27. > :16:29.in our careers we may disagree about, and something to even be
:16:30. > :16:35.embarrassed about, but as writers I would say that Marie and I both
:16:36. > :16:38.explain our political journeys, we talk about the way in which we have
:16:39. > :16:41.changed our minds and that is quite an important part of being a writer
:16:42. > :16:47.in the public sphere, demonstrating that ability, and my answer to your
:16:48. > :16:50.question, if MPs have embarrassing tales online, what they will have to
:16:51. > :17:01.do in the future is right at the beginning, we are also in an age of
:17:02. > :17:07.transparency, so embrace that, they need to 'fess up up, and that is
:17:08. > :17:10.basically good PR advice, 'fess up before folks find it. If he had
:17:11. > :17:13.said, I had written all this nonsense in the past, all this
:17:14. > :17:18.rubbish, would that have made a difference? If it had not been
:17:19. > :17:21.exposed... I think so, yes, but that being said I would argue that not
:17:22. > :17:26.everyone our rage can remember everything they have posted before,
:17:27. > :17:33.and I know that because I looked at my early Facebook account recently,
:17:34. > :17:37.and was quite higher -- horrify. How can you confess when you don't
:17:38. > :17:42.exactly know what you have posted... We are all delighted that AOL
:17:43. > :17:46.Instant Messenger shut down this week! Your older viewers may not
:17:47. > :17:51.realise this but we have a lot of memories of that, we millennial 's.
:17:52. > :17:57.Talking about redemption for people who have gone out to fight with Isis
:17:58. > :18:02.in Syria. Are we overblowing speech crimes in the great pantheon of our
:18:03. > :18:07.career mistakes? I don't think so. What would that say to women and
:18:08. > :18:12.LGBT people, that this person said this incredibly offensive stuff, not
:18:13. > :18:15.just silly jokes that were on the line, but genuinely offensive stuff?
:18:16. > :18:21.It would send such a message, I think, to say it is sort of fine. So
:18:22. > :18:24.I think him resigning from the committee while remaining as MP and
:18:25. > :18:30.apologising is kind of a decent way to do it. Speech crimes, the problem
:18:31. > :18:34.is in the phrase they are, you said two words, and I think it was about
:18:35. > :18:38.ten. A more open society would be one in which we accuse people less
:18:39. > :18:41.often of speech crimes but we could also have intelligent debate about
:18:42. > :18:47.changing our minds. Thank you very much indeed.
:18:48. > :18:50.Of all the services the internet can provide, Airbnb is perhaps
:18:51. > :18:56.In case you haven't encountered it, it is where people turn their spare
:18:57. > :18:58.rooms into overnight accommodation for tourists.
:18:59. > :19:00.The easy matchmaking between renters and rentees has
:19:01. > :19:03.Not great for hotels, but for everybody else
:19:04. > :19:07.Well, Airbnb has scaled up - from just being a simple way
:19:08. > :19:14.for homeowners to earn a bit of pocket money, to also being
:19:15. > :19:16.a platform for professionals to run money-making property portfolios -
:19:17. > :19:18.and to do so outside the regulations facing hotels.
:19:19. > :19:20.For some neighbours of Airbnb properties, the service
:19:21. > :19:24.We'll debate its merits shortly, but first our technology editor,
:19:25. > :19:41.David Grossman, looks at the Airbnb phenomenon.
:19:42. > :19:43.Like the low-cost airlines before them, short-term letting apps
:19:44. > :19:45.like Airbnb are making travel more affordable for people.
:19:46. > :19:48.They get to stay in interesting places, and as the slogan says,
:19:49. > :20:00.And if property owners can make a few quid too, who's complaining?
:20:01. > :20:05.As we've seen from taxi apps like Uber, the sharing economy isn't
:20:06. > :20:09.In terms of short-term letting apps like Airbnb,
:20:10. > :20:12.the evidence is that it's starting to have a profound impact in some
:20:13. > :20:13.local housing markets, and on the experience
:20:14. > :20:18.Our research shows that it's primarily a London problem,
:20:19. > :20:28.but it's very definitely a growing problem in other large cities,
:20:29. > :20:30.with a tourist interest, so Manchester is seeing a lot
:20:31. > :20:32.of growth, and in Glasgow and Edinburgh we're particularly
:20:33. > :20:36.The London Borough of Westminster is particularly hard-hit,
:20:37. > :20:38.with an estimated 5000 properties taken out of the traditional
:20:39. > :20:47.It is taking homes away from people who might
:20:48. > :20:48.otherwise be living there - on scale.
:20:49. > :20:52.So there are wards in Westminster where one in ten properties
:20:53. > :20:55.are permanently in the short-let sector, and that's not good.
:20:56. > :20:58.To be clear, no one is saying that a property owner shouldn't be
:20:59. > :21:00.able to let a room out, or go away on holiday
:21:01. > :21:03.and let their flat-out - that's all absolutely fine.
:21:04. > :21:04.It's the increasing professionalisation of this
:21:05. > :21:09.This is what a real hotel looks like, regulated to have
:21:10. > :21:11.minimal impact on locals, because - however welcome to a city
:21:12. > :21:17.- short-term visitors don't make great neighbours.
:21:18. > :21:20.It's been going on for couple of years now, and it has got
:21:21. > :21:28.to the point recently where we've wanted to move away from it.
:21:29. > :21:30.This neighbour of a busy short-term-let flat
:21:31. > :21:32.in London doesn't want to be identified
:21:33. > :21:33.because she is frightened of repercussions.
:21:34. > :21:38.You don't know who's around you, you don't know that when you come
:21:39. > :21:43.home at night you're going to get a good night's sleep.
:21:44. > :21:47.It's just irritating when you're just dropping off,
:21:48. > :21:50.to have a sudden reminder, oh, yeah, your neighbours
:21:51. > :21:53.are Airbnb - they're back now, they're going to keep you awake.
:21:54. > :21:56.Often, the first sign of a property moving over to short-term letting
:21:57. > :21:59.is the appearance outside of these - key boxes.
:22:00. > :22:02.Getting complete data from Airbnb is extremely hard,
:22:03. > :22:05.but we've analysed the website to find out how many hosts let out
:22:06. > :22:13.That may be an indication that they're operating as a business.
:22:14. > :22:18.In London, we found 12,428 entire homes run by multi-listing hosts.
:22:19. > :22:21.That's 37.5% of all entire Airbnb homes in the city.
:22:22. > :22:31.London's top ten hosts ran a total of 1634 entire home
:22:32. > :22:38.In Edinburgh we found 1794 entire homes run by multi-listing hosts.
:22:39. > :22:42.That's a third of all Airbnb entire homes in the city.
:22:43. > :22:44.Edinburgh's top ten hosts ran a total of 302 entire home
:22:45. > :22:52.In Bristol, we found 226 entire homes run by multi-listing hosts.
:22:53. > :22:59.That's 30% of all the entire Airbnb homes in the city.
:23:00. > :23:02.Bristol's top ten hosts ran a total of 127 entire home
:23:03. > :23:12.Unlike residential properties, mortgages on holiday lets qualify
:23:13. > :23:15.for mortgage interest tax relief, and the returns can be two
:23:16. > :23:18.or three times as big as conventional letting.
:23:19. > :23:21.So much so that instead of buy to let, people are now setting up
:23:22. > :23:24.hugely lucrative rent to let businesses.
:23:25. > :23:30.It's increasingly common for landlords to rent property out,
:23:31. > :23:32.and find that property is sublet, either with their consent -
:23:33. > :23:36.although perhaps not with their entire understanding -
:23:37. > :23:43.or entirely without their consent, in what you might choose to call
:23:44. > :23:46.a sort of rent arbitrage, in that I pay you the market rent
:23:47. > :23:48.from an ordinary let property on the family market.
:23:49. > :23:51.If I then put it on Airbnb on the holiday let market,
:23:52. > :23:54.for the same period of time, provided I can keep it full,
:23:55. > :23:58.I will get more money from Airbnb and so I can guarantee to pay
:23:59. > :24:01.you a set sum of money and make a profit on the difference.
:24:02. > :24:08.It's possible to construct vast portfolios of property in this way,
:24:09. > :24:10.creating virtual hotels complete with a check-in desk.
:24:11. > :24:18.It's one of the most popular nightspots in the capital.
:24:19. > :24:21.It's where groups of people come for a curry and a night out.
:24:22. > :24:23.And it's also one of the hotspots for Airbnb -
:24:24. > :24:27.there are lots of properties listed around here, many of them run
:24:28. > :24:31.I've checked into one, or at least I've booked it.
:24:32. > :24:34.I've been e-mailed some instructions of how I have to check in.
:24:35. > :24:37.I have to go and pick up the keys from a shop which is,
:24:38. > :24:42.When I got there, the shop - well, it didn't feel
:24:43. > :24:48.More like just a guy sat behind a desk with a big ledger in front
:24:49. > :24:50.of him with all the bookings for different places.
:24:51. > :24:53.My name was on there, he checked my ID, he gave me
:24:54. > :24:55.the keys, he gave me the instructions how to get there.
:24:56. > :25:12.Floor's a bit creaky, but apart from that it
:25:13. > :25:22.In fact, it says in the welcome folder that the entire building -
:25:23. > :25:25.nine flats - are available from the same Airbnb hosts.
:25:26. > :25:29.But whatever this place is, it clearly isn't somebody's home.
:25:30. > :25:32.This place has been kitted out - the whole building has been
:25:33. > :25:41.Looking for evidence of any wrongdoing is very tricky.
:25:42. > :25:44.Since 2015 property owners in Greater London have been legally
:25:45. > :25:47.allowed to short-term let somewhere for a maximum total of 90 days
:25:48. > :25:55.It makes it virtually impossible for us or anyone else,
:25:56. > :25:59.like the local authority, to prove what's going on.
:26:00. > :26:02.The problem is that it's not actually an offence
:26:03. > :26:06.to breach planning control, unless you're told to stop
:26:07. > :26:11.breaching planning control, so they have to be caught and told
:26:12. > :26:13.to stop, and then caught again breaching the being told
:26:14. > :26:17.to stop and carrying on, so you have to catch people twice.
:26:18. > :26:22.Although Airbnb has introduced restrictions on people letting out
:26:23. > :26:25.somewhere in London for more than 90 days, it's a simple matter to list
:26:26. > :26:28.on one of the many other short-term letting sites.
:26:29. > :26:31.It's really difficult to track how these landlords
:26:32. > :26:36.are using the different sites, and so we can't really judge
:26:37. > :26:38.whether they are moving properties around across different platforms,
:26:39. > :26:41.but we know anecdotally that this has been reported,
:26:42. > :26:44.and so it's something that if we had this availability to share the data
:26:45. > :26:46.across the platforms, and they worked together
:26:47. > :26:49.with the GLA, this is something that we would be able to keep
:26:50. > :26:55.Well, I think that the Government needs to accept that local
:26:56. > :26:57.authorities have to have legal powers to act to ensure that
:26:58. > :26:59.when people are letting short lets, that they notified.
:27:00. > :27:05.when people are letting short lets, that they notify.
:27:06. > :27:08.If you have a notification it makes it much more straightforward then
:27:09. > :27:11.for a local authority to be able to monitor, make sure
:27:12. > :27:14.that the law is being upheld - it doesn't stop people letting,
:27:15. > :27:18.Other cities and countries are far further ahead in regulating
:27:19. > :27:21.Airbnb declined our request for an interview, but said
:27:22. > :27:23.they already go far further than any other platform
:27:24. > :27:25.in making sure their listings comply with the law.
:27:26. > :27:28.This may not be much comfort to those trapped
:27:29. > :27:31.on the other side of the wall, or the floor, or the ceiling, from
:27:32. > :27:42.I'm nervous that it's just going to turn into a strange hotel
:27:43. > :27:44.situation, in all the blocks, without any regulation
:27:45. > :27:52.Really, it feels like your block is changing?
:27:53. > :27:55.I am concerned that as we see this go on, if nothing changes,
:27:56. > :27:57.the block will just turn into a hotel.
:27:58. > :28:15.Well, Airbnb have given us a statement.
:28:16. > :28:18."We are good partners to London and have
:28:19. > :28:20.introduced automated hosting limits to help ensure home sharing is good
:28:21. > :28:23.news for everyone, and that growth is responsible and sustainable.
:28:24. > :28:26.We are pleased to lead our industry on this matter and urge policymakers
:28:27. > :28:28.to ensure other platforms act responsibly in London,
:28:29. > :28:31.It is not just a problem in London, though.
:28:32. > :28:33.Joining us now in the studio are Roddy Campbell
:28:34. > :28:36.from Shared Economy UK, the trade body for the UK's sharing
:28:37. > :28:38.economy, and founder of the website Vrumi which allows householders
:28:39. > :28:46.But in Liverpool we're joined by the Labour councillor
:28:47. > :28:56.Laura, let's start with you. Short lets, what sort of problems do they
:28:57. > :29:00.cause for your? Do you get a lot of complaints as a councillor? It is a
:29:01. > :29:03.recent phenomenon in our city in Liverpool, certainly moving out of
:29:04. > :29:07.the city into the more residential areas, but we have seen summers of
:29:08. > :29:11.absolute mayhem, where residents have had to call the police, naked
:29:12. > :29:14.men running down the street playing football, stag parties and so on
:29:15. > :29:27.going on, and of course in a city with a lot of student residents
:29:28. > :29:29.really do value that quieter time they used to get in the summer,
:29:30. > :29:32.which is now filled with hen and stag parties completely without any
:29:33. > :29:34.regulation. As Europe is just short, we would welcome home sharing that
:29:35. > :29:38.is genuine, but this is undeclared businesses not paying tax -- as
:29:39. > :29:42.Europe is just showed. But the tourists coming in, that kind of
:29:43. > :29:45.behaviour, it could happen in a hotel. If they want to run out and
:29:46. > :29:49.play football naked at night, isn't it the same thing? I wouldn't think
:29:50. > :29:53.so because the hotels would be staffed and this is completely
:29:54. > :29:58.unstaffed and unsupervised, and these are small terraced streets I
:29:59. > :30:03.am talking about, not big country manners or something. Four bedroom
:30:04. > :30:06.terraces with 20 people for the weekend, it creates mayhem for the
:30:07. > :30:10.neighbours and other residents. Roddy Campbell, that is effectively
:30:11. > :30:11.a lot of what is going on location. Businesses setting these up to defy
:30:12. > :30:20.the regulations? I don't know how you make the leap,
:30:21. > :30:28.London is my main area, that is where I operate my business in. Am I
:30:29. > :30:34.allowed to set up a hotel in London where ever I want. They are hotels
:30:35. > :30:38.about stuff? There are plenty of regulations for short-term lets. How
:30:39. > :30:43.those are in force and whether they are enforced is another question.
:30:44. > :30:49.Enforcement issue for you guys, you are the council, it is your job?
:30:50. > :30:56.There are no regulations. We can't enforce anything, there are no
:30:57. > :31:00.regulations. There are minimal regulations in London, but outside
:31:01. > :31:04.of London we don't even have the 90 day restriction. We are asking home
:31:05. > :31:07.sharing sites to share their data with local authorities so we can
:31:08. > :31:18.regulate them and ensure minimum standards and have have a 90 day
:31:19. > :31:23.cap. Sharing the data so nobody can run their business for more than 90
:31:24. > :31:29.days and a 90 day national limit would sort out the professionals?
:31:30. > :31:33.There is a lot of laws on data protection and data sharing. But we
:31:34. > :31:38.can pass a law on that? If they pass a law on that then yes. We can't
:31:39. > :31:44.enforce the rules at the moment because somebody could put 90 days
:31:45. > :31:48.on one site, and 90 days on another. In London, that is illegal and they
:31:49. > :31:52.can be prosecuted for that and after they have been warned by the local
:31:53. > :31:57.authority, they can be fined for that. But the point is, we have to
:31:58. > :32:00.make it easier for the authorities to levy the fine against the rule
:32:01. > :32:07.breakers because they have to be able to catch the rule breakers to
:32:08. > :32:11.levy the fine. It is difficult for them to watch a property for 180
:32:12. > :32:16.days or 91 days. Can I ask about the scale of this? When people are
:32:17. > :32:20.talking about rogue minicab company is, if there are two rogue drivers
:32:21. > :32:24.in the fleet who are not getting their tax and insurance done, it is
:32:25. > :32:29.not a problem. But if there is a thousand, then it is a problem. The
:32:30. > :32:33.numbers went through very fast on your tape, there are 226 properties
:32:34. > :32:38.your tape, there are 226 property job people identified as
:32:39. > :32:46.multi-property operators in Bristol and it was 1600 in London out of 3.3
:32:47. > :32:54.million households. The idea this is a massive business... The buy to let
:32:55. > :32:58.businesses big. Private renting is a huge business and the short term
:32:59. > :33:03.rental is a sliver of that business. Let me put that to Laura. The
:33:04. > :33:09.numbers are relative to the size of Liverpool or London and we talking
:33:10. > :33:12.about a small industry? Absolutely, but it is growing very fast and the
:33:13. > :33:17.complaints are growing fast. We don't know where they are, we have
:33:18. > :33:20.landlord licensing in Liverpool and we work hard to get that across the
:33:21. > :33:27.city so we can regulate the private rented city. -- sector. This is
:33:28. > :33:31.coming in below the radar, should these people be paying council tax,
:33:32. > :33:37.or business tax? We don't know where they are until we get the complaints
:33:38. > :33:41.in and then it is too late. Airbnb said we want to see everybody's
:33:42. > :33:50.income and then we can regulate the industry better. As a trade
:33:51. > :33:55.Representative Association would you support that? I am speaking as the
:33:56. > :34:02.owner and founder of a business roughly similar to Airbnb. I know
:34:03. > :34:08.hate Chim RC and the Treasury have had conversations about what can and
:34:09. > :34:13.can't be done and what is right, and being on the board, Airbnb have had
:34:14. > :34:18.endless meetings with Treasury and HMRC about what can and can't be
:34:19. > :34:22.done. In the end they are a platform, like me having my make-up
:34:23. > :34:29.done by your very nice make-up man. He takes in travelling actors
:34:30. > :34:34.through his website. I am sure he pays his tax, declares it. Would he
:34:35. > :34:39.expect travelling actors to reveal his income to the taxman? Probably
:34:40. > :34:45.not. Local authorities are picking up the cost of this. We could run
:34:46. > :34:47.this a bit longer because it raises a lot of issues, but we have got to
:34:48. > :34:50.leave it there. People love to complain
:34:51. > :34:52.about politicians, but you won't hear much grumbling
:34:53. > :34:54.about Baroness Trumpington. She's a Tory member of the House
:34:55. > :34:57.of Lords, appointed back in 1980 During a career as a minister
:34:58. > :35:01.and a peer, Trumpington has been independent of thought and has
:35:02. > :35:03.always been one to She has also been mischievous,
:35:04. > :35:07.for example, she famously directed a V-sign at Lord King,
:35:08. > :35:09.when he remarked upon her age Her life chronicles much
:35:10. > :35:13.of the history of the 20th century. She once worked for David
:35:14. > :35:17.Lloyd George on his farm. She is the sort of person
:35:18. > :35:20.for whom the words national But today, her 95th birthday,
:35:21. > :35:25.she is stepping down from the Lords. They have been marking the end
:35:26. > :35:28.of her era with a party this evening, here is a picture
:35:29. > :35:30.of her celebrating with Prime Minister John Major
:35:31. > :35:33.and the Lords Speaker. I sat down with her on Friday,
:35:34. > :35:36.to talk about her life I began by asking her
:35:37. > :35:39.whether life is better now Well, better for those
:35:40. > :36:05.who have money. I think it's amazing the way people
:36:06. > :36:10.climbed out of the mud Well, I can think of
:36:11. > :36:21.Betty Boothroyd, for instance. She was a great success and she had
:36:22. > :36:26.to fight to begin with. Another big woman in your life
:36:27. > :36:28.was Margaret Thatcher of course? And you still think
:36:29. > :36:32.of her with affection because you often argued with her,
:36:33. > :36:33.I think? But that was my value
:36:34. > :36:40.to her and she realised But if I didn't agree
:36:41. > :36:51.with her about something, I said so. It gave her a chance to know what
:36:52. > :37:03.the opposition might say to her. Important in politics not
:37:04. > :37:06.to have all the yes men What about the issue
:37:07. > :37:13.of women in politics? Because a lot has changed
:37:14. > :37:16.in your lifetime. And a lot has changed since you were
:37:17. > :37:27.in the Lords, which was 1980. How should women deal
:37:28. > :37:29.with men who are interested Because it is a big issue today,
:37:30. > :37:35.a lot of women are very angry about it, how should women react,
:37:36. > :37:42.slap them in the face go I think you curse them and it's
:37:43. > :37:53.quite possible to slap their face. One of the big changes
:37:54. > :38:01.between men and women between your young life and now is,
:38:02. > :38:04.men just used to grope women Because women have
:38:05. > :38:17.learned to fight back. Really, women used to be
:38:18. > :38:22.terrified of making a fuss. If the man deserves it, he deserves
:38:23. > :38:34.to have a public fuss made of him. Just tell me about David Lloyd
:38:35. > :38:45.George, because he was one What about this thing
:38:46. > :38:51.with him measuring you up? You are a young girl working
:38:52. > :38:54.on his estate and he's taking a physical interest
:38:55. > :38:55.in you, correct? Anyway, I was much too frightened
:38:56. > :39:17.and shy at that time to object. Of course, you worked at Bletchley
:39:18. > :39:20.in the Second World War as part When Churchill visited us he said,
:39:21. > :39:30.you are the birds that laid the golden eggs,
:39:31. > :39:38.but never cackled. And that was the important thing,
:39:39. > :39:44.was that we never talks. Tell me about this episode
:39:45. > :39:48.in the House of lords, this is one you were very famous
:39:49. > :39:55.for, which was Lord King, made some reference to your age
:39:56. > :39:58.and you did the V-sign at him? And then the survivors
:39:59. > :40:00.of World War II started to look pretty old as well,
:40:01. > :40:03.as my noble friend, the baroness reminded me,
:40:04. > :40:05.I believe claiming to be Now on some stories, you weren't
:40:06. > :40:18.really making every sign, Now on some stories,
:40:19. > :40:20.you weren't really making a V-sign but on other accounts,
:40:21. > :40:23.you knew very well, you knew I did know, because I thought
:40:24. > :40:26.he was insufferable. Trumpington, we associate anything
:40:27. > :40:29.with Trump with the president How extraordinary the Americans
:40:30. > :40:49.are to have let him get away... Well I won't say what
:40:50. > :40:52.I was going to say. Can I ask what you are going to miss
:40:53. > :41:04.most as you leave the lords and say farewell on that long period
:41:05. > :41:06.in your life? I will have permission to sit
:41:07. > :41:18.on the steps of the throne and I will be able to eat meals
:41:19. > :41:21.there, but I won't be a member You will miss them and I'm
:41:22. > :41:39.sure they will miss you. Baroness Trumpington,
:41:40. > :41:53.thank you so much. And that is all we have time for. I
:41:54. > :42:07.will be back tomorrow but until then, good night.
:42:08. > :42:08.Good evening. One thing we won't be in