0:00:06 > 0:00:08Tonight, as Catalans take to the streets
0:00:08 > 0:00:12is Spain about to be torn asunder?
0:00:12 > 0:00:16Spain has become the first country in the European Union
0:00:16 > 0:00:18to have a secessionist crisis, with the Catalan Parliament's vote
0:00:18 > 0:00:21to declare full independence.
0:00:21 > 0:00:27Si. Si. Si...
0:00:27 > 0:00:29Si. Si...
0:00:29 > 0:00:30Si.
0:00:30 > 0:00:37Thousands have been out on the streets of Barcelona
0:00:37 > 0:00:39celebrating the decision, but furious that Madrid has taken
0:00:39 > 0:00:44steps to impose its will and end all Catalonian autonomy.
0:00:44 > 0:00:46TRANSLATION:So, I'm informing you that as of
0:00:46 > 0:00:48today, I have dissolved the Catalonian Parliament,
0:00:48 > 0:00:51and on the 21st of December, there will be autonomic elections
0:00:51 > 0:00:59for that autonomic community.
0:00:59 > 0:01:04We've been among Catalans as they celebrated independence,
0:01:04 > 0:01:06and as the questions about what happens next
0:01:06 > 0:01:10start to multiply.
0:01:10 > 0:01:12We'll ask how the rest of Europe will react
0:01:12 > 0:01:13to these momentous events.
0:01:13 > 0:01:17Already the UK, Germany, the European Union
0:01:17 > 0:01:19and the US have lined up behind Madrid, but the Scottish
0:01:19 > 0:01:22Government has said that Catalonia must have the ability
0:01:22 > 0:01:23to determine its own future.
0:01:23 > 0:01:26So might there now be a broker to help sort out Madrid's future
0:01:26 > 0:01:28relations with Catalonia?
0:01:28 > 0:01:30And could there be a legitimate Catalan Indpendence referendum
0:01:30 > 0:01:33in the foreseeable future?
0:01:33 > 0:01:35And out in the open, almost all the files
0:01:35 > 0:01:38on JFK's assasination are published.
0:01:38 > 0:01:42But do they contain anything truly revelatory?
0:01:42 > 0:01:44We ask one former doubter of the official version
0:01:44 > 0:01:46whether they changed his mind.
0:01:54 > 0:01:56Good evening.
0:01:56 > 0:02:03Not since the Spanish Civil War and then the death of Franco has
0:02:03 > 0:02:05Spain faced such crisis and such uncertainty.
0:02:05 > 0:02:11It is unthinkable to millions in the country that they could face
0:02:11 > 0:02:19each other in emnity, but tonight, there is deep unease in Spain.
0:02:19 > 0:02:23One of the most famous sayings of the Spanish poet Lorca was
0:02:23 > 0:02:26"To burn with desire and keep quiet about it is the greatest punishment
0:02:26 > 0:02:28we can bring on ourselves".
0:02:28 > 0:02:31Those words might be ringing in the ears of the members
0:02:31 > 0:02:32of Catalonia's regional government tonight.
0:02:32 > 0:02:33So what will happen now?
0:02:33 > 0:02:43Our Diplomatic Editor Mark Urban is in Barcelona.
0:02:43 > 0:02:48Well, Kirstie, it has been a remarkable day, as you said, in the
0:02:48 > 0:02:52history of the EU, as well as the history of Spain and Catalonia. Lots
0:02:52 > 0:02:56of people, actually, in this country, don't want it to become
0:02:56 > 0:03:00independent, but in the key events that took place in that building
0:03:00 > 0:03:08behind me here, the parliament, there were 70 votes for it, out of a
0:03:08 > 0:03:13total of 135 MPs. Two ab stained, ten voted against, and 53 stayed
0:03:13 > 0:03:18away altogether, tactics that opponents have used before with the
0:03:18 > 0:03:22referendum vote itself on the 1st of October, rather a questionable
0:03:22 > 0:03:26tactic, you might say. But anyway, those that favoured independence had
0:03:26 > 0:03:31enough to get the vote through, and those events played out with
0:03:31 > 0:03:36extraordinary drama throughout the day.
0:03:36 > 0:03:41After decades of sparring with the government of post dictatorship
0:03:41 > 0:03:48Spain, this was to be a day of action, and emotion.
0:03:48 > 0:03:52As MPs were summoned one by one to vote on a parliamentary motion
0:03:52 > 0:03:58declaring independence. Excitement built in the crowd outside. What are
0:03:58 > 0:04:08you hoping?I hope yes. I don't know. I don't know. I'm so nervous.
0:04:08 > 0:04:17I don't have any idea.Then the results started coming. Yes in
0:04:17 > 0:04:25favour, no against. The pattern quickly becoming apparent, not
0:04:25 > 0:04:32least, many MPs that opposed independence boycotted the vote.
0:04:32 > 0:04:35Then the counting, followed by the inevitable result, and an explosion
0:04:35 > 0:04:40of joy.
0:04:52 > 0:05:04It's very... Very... Sorry, we are very happy. In the past, after
0:05:04 > 0:05:10Franco's dictatorship, we were fighting to descend the Catalan
0:05:10 > 0:05:20people. Now... Sorry, I can't...For us, it is a lifelong dream, so it's
0:05:20 > 0:05:25the best thing we could hear right now. So, we're really happy. We're
0:05:25 > 0:05:31going to defend this Parliament, and this government until the end. We
0:05:31 > 0:05:35want to be free, and we are free now.So the Catalan parliament has
0:05:35 > 0:05:42voted for independence, and this crowd, at least, is loving it.
0:05:42 > 0:05:47And as the national anthem was sung and the Carver flowed, so many
0:05:47 > 0:05:54questions for those looking on. And for those peering down.
0:05:54 > 0:06:01This is the helicopter downlink at the headquarters of Catalonia's
0:06:01 > 0:06:05police, as the demonstrations built today. We were given exclusive
0:06:05 > 0:06:10access. This operations room was set up specifically for today's vote,
0:06:10 > 0:06:17the message that policing is carrying on in a professional and
0:06:17 > 0:06:23nonpolitical way but among these officers there are divided
0:06:23 > 0:06:26loyalties, so if the Spanish government now tries to take direct
0:06:26 > 0:06:32control of this force, who will Iturbe?
0:06:32 > 0:06:35TRANSLATION:We are a professional organisation, we have a hierarchy,
0:06:35 > 0:06:39we are ready to cope with any situation. At a personal level, some
0:06:39 > 0:06:44will feel more or less double with this or that situation. But once we
0:06:44 > 0:06:47put on the uniform, feelings and personal ideologies are left one
0:06:47 > 0:06:51side and we have a response or duty to police the country that we serve.
0:06:51 > 0:06:55And that the parliament itself, in the heady hours after the vote,
0:06:55 > 0:07:00people coming to terms with its meaning, the Madrid government's top
0:07:00 > 0:07:04man in Catalonia clear about one thing, they're not going to accept
0:07:04 > 0:07:11the declaration of Independence. TRANSLATION:The Spanish government
0:07:11 > 0:07:17only had two choices, do nothing and let put on six seed in his could it,
0:07:17 > 0:07:20or proceed with normality in Catalonia. It is clear the only
0:07:20 > 0:07:26option is latter.As the vote supporters went to see whether the
0:07:26 > 0:07:32government responds by trying to seize key institutions of people,
0:07:32 > 0:07:36anxious hours lie ahead.The people of the government in the European
0:07:36 > 0:07:41Union are not going to help us, but in each country of the European
0:07:41 > 0:07:46Union, there is a lot of people with solidarity, who wants to share
0:07:46 > 0:07:50solidarity with us. There are people in Scotland, people in Ireland, who
0:07:50 > 0:07:56say they are going to help us. And we believe a lot with solidarity
0:07:56 > 0:08:06from the base people.Well, the Catalanpolymer's today was historic.
0:08:06 > 0:08:11It is clear the authorities here have no idea how to make a reality
0:08:11 > 0:08:15of Independence. They have no plans for a separate currency, border
0:08:15 > 0:08:20controls or security forces, for example. One MP that voted for it
0:08:20 > 0:08:23said to me just now, "We have absolutely no idea what will happen
0:08:23 > 0:08:30next." With the government responding by
0:08:30 > 0:08:34sacking or trying to the Catalan Cabinet, this crisis is gathering
0:08:34 > 0:08:40pace. TRANSLATION: Iraq today, I have
0:08:40 > 0:08:43dissolved the Catalan parliament. On the 21st of December, regional
0:08:43 > 0:08:52elections will be held. Through the late afternoon and evening,
0:08:52 > 0:08:57supporters gathered. Volunteer fireman ready to defend the new
0:08:57 > 0:09:03Republic, and hundreds of Catalan mailers, bearing their stars of
0:09:03 > 0:09:07office giving political support. But everyone is unsure about what the
0:09:07 > 0:09:12coming days hold. It's curious, but is it in some ways
0:09:12 > 0:09:21dangerous? She believes it is not.She doesn't
0:09:21 > 0:09:29know what can happen tomorrow. It won't be easy.Catalan leaders have
0:09:29 > 0:09:32seized their moment, and are now apparently relying on over reaction
0:09:32 > 0:09:38by Madrid to shape the path ahead. But away from the demonstrations,
0:09:38 > 0:09:43many Catalans are uncertain about the wisdom of this, and the Prime
0:09:43 > 0:09:51Minister in Madrid has an arsenal of options at his disposal.With us now
0:09:51 > 0:09:54is one of those MPs who voted for independence in that historic motion
0:09:54 > 0:10:00today.
0:10:00 > 0:10:01Antoni Castella, leader of the Democrats
0:10:01 > 0:10:03for Catalunya, part of the pro-independence coalition.
0:10:03 > 0:10:08Let's start with the latest moves from good, President Rajoy says the
0:10:08 > 0:10:11government here is dismissed, will they accept that?No, they're not
0:10:11 > 0:10:16going to accept that. The Catalan government just announced that it is
0:10:16 > 0:10:20not anymore and autonomous Gottman. That is the provision of the
0:10:20 > 0:10:24government, so they announced they are not going to accept.This has
0:10:24 > 0:10:30just happened?This happened half an hour ago. So, let's see what the
0:10:30 > 0:10:35next step that it's going to do from the Spanish government.In terms of
0:10:35 > 0:10:39the people who didn't want this to happen, and there are a lot of them
0:10:39 > 0:10:42in this country, how are you going to carry them with you on this
0:10:42 > 0:10:46journey?Yeah, that's very important, but in democracy, that's
0:10:46 > 0:10:52why we need a referendum. There was 80% of the people in Catalonia, they
0:10:52 > 0:10:57wanted a referendum. That's very important, for instance. Finally, in
0:10:57 > 0:11:01October, we had a referendum, and that is the way you can count
0:11:01 > 0:11:08everybody. So now there is a majority in Catalonia that voted.It
0:11:08 > 0:11:14was 2 million out of 7.5 million, so it was...There is no 7.5 million.
0:11:14 > 0:11:205.3 million votes. That is not a majority.If we tell you something,
0:11:20 > 0:11:26it is a referendum. The 90% voted yes. If you look at Brexit, for
0:11:26 > 0:11:30instance, it was less than that. Nobody is saying nothing about that.
0:11:30 > 0:11:33Those are the rules of the referendum. Everybody could go to
0:11:33 > 0:11:39vote. So the result, and the guarantees are there. The government
0:11:39 > 0:11:44of Catalonia, what we did just today is just to get the response of what
0:11:44 > 0:11:50was the responsibility of the Republic.How do you make it real
0:11:50 > 0:11:55now, because EU countries, the United States, all sorts of
0:11:55 > 0:11:58countries around the world are saying they are not going to
0:11:58 > 0:12:01recognise you as an independent country?First of all, what we have
0:12:01 > 0:12:05to do is what we did today, recognise ourselves. Then what we
0:12:05 > 0:12:10announce is this is going to be a building, bottom-up process. We want
0:12:10 > 0:12:14to do it with dialogue, with the Spanish government, and the
0:12:14 > 0:12:18international community. We are going to take the next steps just
0:12:18 > 0:12:24doing it progressive, and doing it by dialogue. So let's see what's
0:12:24 > 0:12:29going to happen in the next steps. Of course, there is a conflict of
0:12:29 > 0:12:33legalities. We think we have the right, we think we have the right of
0:12:33 > 0:12:42democracy, because the people voted. And we think that we have two fight
0:12:42 > 0:12:45it to build the new Republic. That's not going to be something for
0:12:45 > 0:12:50tomorrow. It's going to be something that we will be holding by
0:12:50 > 0:12:53negotiation. And we ask for responsibly to to the kingdom of
0:12:53 > 0:12:58Spain, and we think that the political problems has to be solved
0:12:58 > 0:13:03with politics.Dramatic days ahead, clearly. Anthony Castagna, thank you
0:13:03 > 0:13:07very much.Thank you very much.
0:13:07 > 0:13:09So tonight the Spanish Prime Ministe Mariano Rajoy,
0:13:09 > 0:13:11has announced he is firing the entire Catalan Government
0:13:11 > 0:13:12and suspending its Parliament.
0:13:12 > 0:13:15For many Catalans, their identity, their family language and culture
0:13:15 > 0:13:19is what they fought for against Franco, fought for and lost,
0:13:19 > 0:13:22many great grandparents, grandparents and parents
0:13:22 > 0:13:24died fighting for Catalonia.
0:13:24 > 0:13:26Then, Catalonia's autonomy was enshrined
0:13:26 > 0:13:28in Spain's 1978 constitution.
0:13:28 > 0:13:32But that Constitution, forged three years after Franco's
0:13:32 > 0:13:34death for the newly democratic country, stated the indissoluble
0:13:34 > 0:13:36unity of the Spanish nation.
0:13:36 > 0:13:38That is the basis for Madrid's stand.
0:13:38 > 0:13:43The question is can the Constitution hold, and will Carlos Puigemont be
0:13:43 > 0:13:45arrested for sedition? We're joined by Alfredo Pastor,
0:13:45 > 0:13:47the former Spanish economics minister, who we spoke to last night
0:13:47 > 0:13:55before all this happened.
0:13:55 > 0:14:03Good evening again.Good evening.I wonder if you just heard Antoni
0:14:03 > 0:14:07Castella saying that in Barcelona they have announced provisional
0:14:07 > 0:14:13government of the Republic?I heard that.What do you make of it.The
0:14:13 > 0:14:17reasoning is impeccable only it is based on false premises. The
0:14:17 > 0:14:25referendum was not a referendum that could be recognised by anybody. The
0:14:25 > 0:14:28Catalan parliament had no legal authority to set up such a
0:14:28 > 0:14:35referendum. And the newly declared republic is outside the
0:14:35 > 0:14:41Constitution, which is the instrument we have to frame our
0:14:41 > 0:14:48democracy.What do you think happens now?That is a good question. It
0:14:48 > 0:14:54seems to me that President Rajoy has taken the less risky way of the many
0:14:54 > 0:14:57risky alternatives but it is a risky alternative because we can expect
0:14:57 > 0:15:02some kind of resistance in the streets and probably as Mr Castella
0:15:02 > 0:15:11says, on the part of the government which has just been sent home. You
0:15:11 > 0:15:16will see that it is in everyone's interest to have elections. In fact
0:15:16 > 0:15:20everyone was asking for elections yesterday and everybody breathes a
0:15:20 > 0:15:25sigh of relief when Carles Puigdemont said that he would call a
0:15:25 > 0:15:33snap election. I feel much more comfortable to know that in two
0:15:33 > 0:15:38months we will have a proper election and meanwhile, the Spanish
0:15:38 > 0:15:43government will just administer the day-to-day business of the
0:15:43 > 0:15:48Catalonian institutions.The day business of Catalonia might turn
0:15:48 > 0:15:52violent. Last night you set on Newsnight you would not be surprised
0:15:52 > 0:15:58if Carles Puigdemont was sent to jail. -- last night he said that.
0:15:58 > 0:16:03Before you send someone to jail you have to try them. And if that
0:16:03 > 0:16:17happens, that will take some time. So that's nothing immediate.These
0:16:17 > 0:16:21elections that Mr Rajoy said would be held on December 23. If the
0:16:21 > 0:16:28majority of those elections are for independence for Catalonia we are in
0:16:28 > 0:16:37the same situations again and then what happens to the constitution?
0:16:37 > 0:16:41Note, it is difficult for Mr Rajoy to talk to the Carles Puigdemont
0:16:41 > 0:16:47government. When the Carles Puigdemont government comes out of
0:16:47 > 0:16:51elections that have not done anything illegal then they can talk.
0:16:51 > 0:16:53Thank you for joining us.
0:16:53 > 0:16:55Obviously, this is a huge test for Spain.
0:16:55 > 0:16:57Catalunya makes up 16% of the Spanish population
0:16:57 > 0:16:58and nearly a fifth of its economy.
0:16:58 > 0:17:01But its also a headache for the whole of Europe.
0:17:01 > 0:17:04So far the UK, France, Germany and the US have
0:17:04 > 0:17:06lined up with Madrid, the Scottish Government alone has
0:17:06 > 0:17:09said that the Catalans must be free to determine their own future.
0:17:09 > 0:17:12So how will this play out in Spain - will it be peaceful or violent,
0:17:12 > 0:17:14and how will the Catalan crisis resonate
0:17:14 > 0:17:19in other European countries?
0:17:19 > 0:17:22Joining me to discuss this is LSE professor of Spanish
0:17:22 > 0:17:24studies Sebastian Balfour, former British Foreign Secretary Sir
0:17:24 > 0:17:34Malcolm Rifkind and journalist and Scottish independence campaigner
0:17:36 > 0:17:42Lesley Riddoch who returned from Barcelona this evening.
0:17:42 > 0:17:45Good evening, Sebastian Balfour, is Spain equipped to deal with this?I
0:17:45 > 0:17:53don't think so. I think the odds on a peaceful transition from control
0:17:53 > 0:17:58from Madrid is very very poor. First we will see widespread civil unrest.
0:17:58 > 0:18:03There's no doubt about it. We already saw some problems with
0:18:03 > 0:18:08October one, the use of violence by police.And problems within the
0:18:08 > 0:18:12police.So widespread civil unrest of one sort or another, the
0:18:12 > 0:18:21independence movement has got a tradition of peaceful protest yet
0:18:21 > 0:18:24also imaginative protest. That is not something the Spanish police
0:18:24 > 0:18:33will be good at dealing with. We are also likely to see obstruction and
0:18:33 > 0:18:37the civil servants, the firefighters are we saw demonstrating on October
0:18:37 > 0:18:43the 3rd, and strikes as well. So I think this is going to be almost
0:18:43 > 0:18:48impossible to contain.And you talk about civil disobedience and you
0:18:48 > 0:18:53fear a descent into violence.Yes. I fear that descended into violence
0:18:53 > 0:18:57may not come from the independence movement so much as the reaction by
0:18:57 > 0:19:04the forces of law and order.Is the constitution and immovable force?
0:19:04 > 0:19:10No. It could be amended. It would be a complicated process. It would
0:19:10 > 0:19:15involve a referendum across all of Spain, but it is something that has
0:19:15 > 0:19:22been raised and discussed and is set by a number of people, including
0:19:22 > 0:19:26people in Catalonia. I'm talking about the mayor row of Barcelona,
0:19:26 > 0:19:34for example.Let me bring in Lesley Riddoch, who is just back from
0:19:34 > 0:19:35Barcelona. Lesley
0:19:35 > 0:19:37Riddoch, who is just back from Barcelona. Lesley, you have heard
0:19:37 > 0:19:41that the international position is not to recognise this declaration of
0:19:41 > 0:19:45Independence but to stand with Madrid. The Catalans to have any
0:19:45 > 0:19:50chance would they not have to have international support, and it isn't
0:19:50 > 0:19:54there.It is not there at the moment but there are deep by release in
0:19:54 > 0:19:59this. At the moment the Council of the European Union is held by
0:19:59 > 0:20:05Estonia, which declared its own independence unilaterally in 1991
0:20:05 > 0:20:10and had no rush of Western nations recognising it. It was little ice
0:20:10 > 0:20:15land that recognise and first, exactly the same story one year
0:20:15 > 0:20:19before with Lithuania. The West wasn't willing to intervene because
0:20:19 > 0:20:22it preferred to shore up the Russians in the hope that they would
0:20:22 > 0:20:28not return to come in as. So within recent memory we've got a very clear
0:20:28 > 0:20:33experience of a small nation wanting to establish its rights to self
0:20:33 > 0:20:37determination but of course when it is peeling away from the soviet
0:20:37 > 0:20:41union everyone eventually fell in behind that and now that little
0:20:41 > 0:20:44country is now the leader, now has the presidency of the European
0:20:44 > 0:20:51Union!If you look at what happened in Scotland, the independence
0:20:51 > 0:20:56referendum did not pass there but there was a build-up of support. Yet
0:20:56 > 0:20:59we know from Catalonia that the autonomous area is deeply split on
0:20:59 > 0:21:07independence. You might say, yes, 42% turnout, but a lot of people
0:21:07 > 0:21:10were not in favour of independence in Catalonia and did not vote at
0:21:10 > 0:21:18all. So it is hard to determine what the support is.You could point out
0:21:18 > 0:21:23that the present UK Government got 30% of the vote. If you put that to
0:21:23 > 0:21:27one side, and this comes as a difficult thing to say for the
0:21:27 > 0:21:32support of Scottish independence, that the UK did pretty well actually
0:21:32 > 0:21:35by the political difference that emerged between Scotland and the
0:21:35 > 0:21:40democratically elected government there, and the UK. It allowed a
0:21:40 > 0:21:45legally binding referendum. It did not play constitutional politics. It
0:21:45 > 0:21:49didn't hide behind the law, it called a spade a spade. That is what
0:21:49 > 0:21:54the Catalan people want.Malcolm Rifkind, you were there in Bosnia.
0:21:54 > 0:22:01What do you make of what Sebastian says about the possibility of civil
0:22:01 > 0:22:06unrest becoming something darker.We should be under no illusions. This
0:22:06 > 0:22:10is the worst crisis in Western Europe has faced since the end of
0:22:10 > 0:22:13the Second World War. Over the next month the Spanish government, having
0:22:13 > 0:22:17dismissed the Catalan government, has two imposes authority in
0:22:17 > 0:22:23Catalonia. It can't just wait till the election with no government that
0:22:23 > 0:22:27it recognises. If it tries to do that, which I think it will, the
0:22:27 > 0:22:31Catalan separatists are a minority of Catalonia but some of them will
0:22:31 > 0:22:34fight back and therefore the risk is some form of Spanish civil war
0:22:34 > 0:22:41breaking out. I'm not saying that it will happen. I'm saying that it is a
0:22:41 > 0:22:46serious risk and probably will happen in some form.I will put this
0:22:46 > 0:22:52to Sebastien but tell me what the impact on Europe would be. Part of
0:22:52 > 0:22:54the reason, one might say that other countries are falling in behind
0:22:54 > 0:22:59Madrid is that we are in a period where each country has its own issue
0:22:59 > 0:23:07with autonomy.It is more than that. Lesley 's comment about Estonia was
0:23:07 > 0:23:13irrelevant. Catalonia itself is deeply divided, 38% voted for
0:23:13 > 0:23:18independence, 62% either boycotted the election or voted against it.
0:23:18 > 0:23:22You'll have a divided Catalonia with the whole of the rest of Spain of
0:23:22 > 0:23:28one of you.You say not since the Second World War in Europe... We are
0:23:28 > 0:23:33talking about Yugoslavia...I said Western Europe.That's right, that
0:23:33 > 0:23:39is a very dark thought, is it not?I do not agree that this could become
0:23:39 > 0:23:44another civil war. All the force is on one side. Yet what that site has
0:23:44 > 0:23:49not reckoned with is the creativity of and the obstruction they are
0:23:49 > 0:23:56likely to face in the governance of Catalonia. And this is where, in a
0:23:56 > 0:24:00sense, calling elections by December 21 is better than running it for
0:24:00 > 0:24:07much longer because they are not going to be able to run it.Lesley
0:24:07 > 0:24:11Riddoch, Mariano Rajoy says this is Europe's battle, has Europe got a
0:24:11 > 0:24:16place in sorting this out.Of course it does. As the Scottish Government
0:24:16 > 0:24:20says there is a moral and political responsibility to do something about
0:24:20 > 0:24:25this test portion and use of force on October one, and the impasse we
0:24:25 > 0:24:31are in now. There's a constitutional on separation in Spain but clearly
0:24:31 > 0:24:35there is a democratically elected government with a mandate to pursue
0:24:35 > 0:24:41independence. Now there has to be some sort of talking here. I grew up
0:24:41 > 0:24:44in Northern Ireland and saw several periods of direct rule and I think
0:24:44 > 0:24:48Malcolm Rifkind would probably agree that in hindsight that was holding
0:24:48 > 0:24:53pattern only. You've got to get to the point of recognising a political
0:24:53 > 0:24:57difference and having the talks that the UK Government was smart enough
0:24:57 > 0:25:03to have a Scotland. Scotland is being seen as the gold standard
0:25:03 > 0:25:12already.Thank you all very much indeed.
0:25:12 > 0:25:13This morning the US government released 2800
0:25:13 > 0:25:17previously classified files on the assassination
0:25:17 > 0:25:18of President John F Kennedy in 1963.
0:25:18 > 0:25:24Donald Trump held back some of the files at the
0:25:24 > 0:25:28request of the FBI and the CIA, to the fury of those who have always
0:25:28 > 0:25:30doubted the official version of events.
0:25:30 > 0:25:32But he insisted the public deserves to be fully informed, and
0:25:32 > 0:25:34that eventually it will all be made available.
0:25:34 > 0:25:37These are perhaps the most contested 30 seconds
0:25:37 > 0:25:42of footage in US history - a conspiracy theorist's dream.
0:25:42 > 0:25:46The official verdict, of course, was that the shooter,
0:25:46 > 0:25:49Lee Harvey Oswald, acted alone.
0:25:49 > 0:25:51But inevitably, the government's refusal to publish all of
0:25:51 > 0:25:55the 5 million pages of official documents on the case has fed
0:25:55 > 0:26:04a deep suspicion that something was fishy.
0:26:04 > 0:26:14Today, we learned of one CIA memo that suggested the shooter met a KGB
0:26:15 > 0:26:17agent in Mexico City just months before the shooting in Dealey Plaza.
0:26:17 > 0:26:20Another memo suggested Soviet officials feared a US missile
0:26:20 > 0:26:21strike after the event.
0:26:21 > 0:26:24But this is the era of fake news, distrust in the Washington
0:26:24 > 0:26:25establishment, and a president that questioned Obama's
0:26:25 > 0:26:26birth certificate.
0:26:26 > 0:26:29As long as there are documents held back, redactions still in place,
0:26:29 > 0:26:33there will be those that simply don't believe the official narrative
0:26:33 > 0:26:38of the assassination of the 35th President of the United States.
0:26:38 > 0:26:45Joining me from Washington is the journalist Jefferson Morley,
0:26:45 > 0:26:47contributing writer with Newsweek and author of The Ghost, which tells
0:26:47 > 0:26:49the story of how a CIA counter-intelligence chief monitored
0:26:49 > 0:26:55Lee Harvey Oswald from 1959 to 1963.
0:26:55 > 0:27:04Good evening to you.Hi.What do you make of the release of the files?
0:27:04 > 0:27:10What happened yesterday was disappointing. President Trump
0:27:10 > 0:27:14released 2800 records and about 25,000 records remain secret. By law
0:27:14 > 0:27:19they should have been made public yesterday. That didn't happen.
0:27:19 > 0:27:23President Trump extended the secrecy around the records for another six
0:27:23 > 0:27:28months. The agencies have had years to prepare for this. The president
0:27:28 > 0:27:31has had his entire term to breathe ever there is so the intent of
0:27:31 > 0:27:37Congress and the law to see full disclosure has been faded and that
0:27:37 > 0:27:43is unfortunate. It will encourage conspiratorial speculation, which
0:27:43 > 0:27:46given government malfeasance in the case and the government 's extensive
0:27:46 > 0:27:51knowledge of the accused assassin before the assassination is entirely
0:27:51 > 0:27:57justified.So you think that 20% that has been held back might well
0:27:57 > 0:28:02contain something. What did the CIA say, it is about protecting sources?
0:28:02 > 0:28:06Do you give any credibility to that? We've heard this since the Pentagon
0:28:06 > 0:28:12papers that the release of secret material would endanger lives. It is
0:28:12 > 0:28:15virtually never proven true and I doubt it will be true of these
0:28:15 > 0:28:18records. There may be a handful of records that have real security
0:28:18 > 0:28:27information in them but we are talking about 25,000 documents that
0:28:27 > 0:28:30were withheld from public view. They are not all crucial to national
0:28:30 > 0:28:33security.We have not been through them all but by and large you don't
0:28:33 > 0:28:37hold with the idea that John F. Kennedy was assassinated by Lee
0:28:37 > 0:28:42Harvey Oswald. With what you have heard today, Hazard bolsters your
0:28:42 > 0:28:48view, undermined it or giving you another idea? -- has it bolstered
0:28:48 > 0:28:54your view?What we got from the CIA and the FBI last night was that the
0:28:54 > 0:28:57least consequential records are being kept secret. There was nothing
0:28:57 > 0:29:02that changed my mind. It was very telling that to the one interesting
0:29:02 > 0:29:07document that said something new was an interview with the CIA director
0:29:07 > 0:29:14in 1975, who was asked, was Lee Harvey Oswald and agent of the CIA.
0:29:14 > 0:29:18We never get the answer. That's the end of the document. That is
0:29:18 > 0:29:23emblematic of what happened last night. A very truncated release that
0:29:23 > 0:29:28evaded the intent of Congress to have full disclosure.Given that
0:29:28 > 0:29:36Donald Trump's shtick has always been about distrust of the CIA and
0:29:36 > 0:29:42Washington, that doesn't play to his base. Our people are upset with him
0:29:42 > 0:29:47because of this?I think a lot of people are. One senator wrote on
0:29:47 > 0:29:51Twitter today that it was ridiculous that the CIA was trying to continue
0:29:51 > 0:29:56the cover-up. It was really disappointing. We had a law in place
0:29:56 > 0:30:01that was very clear. The president and the agencies evaded the law
0:30:01 > 0:30:05because the material in the remaining records, the remaining 80%
0:30:05 > 0:30:09of the records that were to be made public today will be deeply
0:30:09 > 0:30:15embarrassing to the FBI and the CIA, and show malfeasance in the case of
0:30:15 > 0:30:26the assassination.Briefly in a 20% not released, will find something
0:30:26 > 0:30:28interesting?Absolutely. There's no question about it!Thank you very
0:30:28 > 0:30:31much for joining us tonight. We await that of interest. Just time
0:30:31 > 0:30:38for some front pages. The Times goes for a headline, Spain on the brink,
0:30:38 > 0:30:43Madrid imposing direct rule, the Daily Telegraph says that cracks
0:30:43 > 0:30:48show in the EU as Catalans back independence. And we know tonight,
0:30:48 > 0:30:53too late for the papers that in Catalonia they have declared a
0:30:53 > 0:30:56provisional government for the Republic. That's all we have time
0:30:56 > 0:31:00for. Emily will be back on Monday.