0:00:08 > 0:00:11Are you turning yourself in to federal authorities today?Mr
0:00:11 > 0:00:13Manafort has no comment.
0:00:13 > 0:00:14Trumped-up charges?
0:00:14 > 0:00:16Paul Manafort, the president's former campaign chief,
0:00:16 > 0:00:20faces multiple criminal indictments.
0:00:20 > 0:00:25President Donald Trump was correct, there is no evidence that Mr
0:00:25 > 0:00:27Manafort or the Trump campaign colluded with the Russian
0:00:27 > 0:00:28government.
0:00:28 > 0:00:31Well, Mr Manafort's lawyer there dismissed the charges,
0:00:31 > 0:00:33but he and two other associates of President Trump are now caught
0:00:33 > 0:00:36up in criminal cases.
0:00:36 > 0:00:40And that could just be the starter.
0:00:40 > 0:00:42The inevitable question: is the legal net closing
0:00:42 > 0:00:47in on the president himself and his campaign?
0:00:47 > 0:00:52Make no mistake, there is a need for change.
0:00:52 > 0:00:54Also tonight - is this the standard experience of female
0:00:54 > 0:00:57researchers at Westminster - male MPs feeling they can just lunge
0:00:57 > 0:01:04at subservient women as of right.
0:01:04 > 0:01:08Yeah absolutely, I think again lots of the men who I've had experience
0:01:08 > 0:01:12with this just thought it was their right to, that it was an
0:01:12 > 0:01:17entitlement. They didn't even show any remorse afterwards or didn't
0:01:17 > 0:01:21even, for a second, cross their mind that they'd behaved inappropriately.
0:01:21 > 0:01:22They govern us.
0:01:22 > 0:01:26Can we trust MPs to govern themselves?
0:01:26 > 0:01:30I'm in Barcelona, where things are getting a little surreal. Reports
0:01:30 > 0:01:34the entire Catalan cabinet have fled this city for another country, as
0:01:34 > 0:01:38charges of treason are brought against them by Spanish prosecutors.
0:01:38 > 0:01:43Where is he?I don't know. I cannot confirm where is the president. I
0:01:43 > 0:01:50think the president's office should say where's Mr President.
0:01:52 > 0:01:53Hello.
0:01:53 > 0:01:56Another day of drama in Washington, with news of the first charges
0:01:56 > 0:01:59in the Trump Russia investigation.
0:01:59 > 0:02:03Another day this US presidency has been distracted
0:02:03 > 0:02:05by substantial legal problems.
0:02:05 > 0:02:09Is the law - represented by the special prosecutor Robert Mueller -
0:02:09 > 0:02:12now starting to drift dangerously close to the President himself?
0:02:12 > 0:02:15There were two bits of bad news for the Mr Trump: one -
0:02:15 > 0:02:18possibly the less serious - is that his former campaign manager,
0:02:18 > 0:02:21Paul Manafort and a colleague of his were charged with tax fraud
0:02:21 > 0:02:24and money laundering.
0:02:24 > 0:02:27Not good, and watch that space.
0:02:27 > 0:02:30But for now, the second bit of news is perhaps more dangerous as it's
0:02:30 > 0:02:34directly relevant to the thing that really threatens Trump -
0:02:34 > 0:02:37his campaign's potential collusion with the Russians in trying to bend
0:02:37 > 0:02:40the course of the US election campaign.
0:02:40 > 0:02:44A former Trump advisor, it emerged today, George Papadopoulos has
0:02:44 > 0:02:47pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI about contacts with a Russian
0:02:47 > 0:02:53professor, who he knew was connected to the Russian government.
0:02:53 > 0:02:58Paul Manafort is the best-known of the characters in the news today.
0:02:58 > 0:03:01He made himself rich by busying himself in the Ukraine helping
0:03:01 > 0:03:03the pro-Russian President Yanukovich.
0:03:03 > 0:03:05But he went on to help Trump.
0:03:05 > 0:03:07In fact, to lead his campaign.
0:03:07 > 0:03:11The charges today all relate to activity before he was working
0:03:11 > 0:03:13for Candidate Trump.
0:03:13 > 0:03:16Money-laundering and tax fraud, they are.
0:03:16 > 0:03:18And all have been fiercely challenged by his lawyer.
0:03:18 > 0:03:22He was seeking to further democracy and to help Ukraine come closer
0:03:22 > 0:03:26to the United States and the EU.
0:03:26 > 0:03:29Those activities ended in 2014.
0:03:29 > 0:03:35Over two years before Mr Manafort served in the Trump campaign.
0:03:35 > 0:03:38The difficulty for the president is that everyone expects
0:03:38 > 0:03:41there to be more - special prosecutors often
0:03:41 > 0:03:43interpret their brief widely.
0:03:43 > 0:03:46And these indictments show Robert Mueller is no exception.
0:03:46 > 0:03:50It's very unlikely that these are the charges that they will face.
0:03:50 > 0:03:53Prosecutors will often bring a superseding indictment.
0:03:53 > 0:03:56So they could face twice, three times this number of counts
0:03:56 > 0:03:58by the time they go to trial.
0:03:58 > 0:04:02This is just the start, not just for others, but for them.
0:04:02 > 0:04:04Along with Mr Manafort, a colleague called Richard
0:04:04 > 0:04:07Gates was also charged.
0:04:07 > 0:04:10But it is the third man that has raised most eyebrows today.
0:04:10 > 0:04:1530-year-old George Papadopoulos.
0:04:15 > 0:04:18He is lower down the food chain than Manafort.
0:04:18 > 0:04:24But he was a foreign policy adviser and has admitted lying to the FBI
0:04:24 > 0:04:27about his Russian contacts.
0:04:27 > 0:04:30It turns out he was arrested in July and has now been "co-operating"
0:04:30 > 0:04:31with the prosecutor.
0:04:31 > 0:04:34The White House spokesperson tried to dismiss him as having little
0:04:34 > 0:04:35to do with the campaign.
0:04:35 > 0:04:36It was extremely limited.
0:04:36 > 0:04:40It was a volunteer position.
0:04:40 > 0:04:43And again no activity was ever done in an official capacity on behalf
0:04:43 > 0:04:47of the campaign in that regard.
0:04:47 > 0:04:52The president's spokesperson shrugging the news today off,
0:04:52 > 0:04:55his lawyer did the same.
0:04:55 > 0:04:58And of course Mr Trump himself.
0:04:58 > 0:05:00"Why aren't crooked Hillary and the Dems the focus?"
0:05:00 > 0:05:03He tweeted.
0:05:03 > 0:05:05But as hew likes to remind everybody,
0:05:05 > 0:05:07she didn't win, and he did.
0:05:07 > 0:05:09Which perhaps makes him a more interesting subject.
0:05:09 > 0:05:12Well, we've heard about the central characters in today's drama.
0:05:12 > 0:05:15Let's talk to the BBC World Affairs correspondent Paul Wood who has been
0:05:15 > 0:05:18looking at this for a year now, and in particular Mr Manafort's
0:05:18 > 0:05:20activities in Ukraine.
0:05:20 > 0:05:24Start with the news today. What, for you, stuck out as most significant?
0:05:24 > 0:05:27There are three strands to the Russia story - money, politics and
0:05:27 > 0:05:31sex. The sex stuff concerns allegations the Russians have
0:05:31 > 0:05:34blackmail tapes of President Trump. Didn't hear about that today. What
0:05:34 > 0:05:37we did hear is allegation that's Paul Manafort got paid a lot of
0:05:37 > 0:05:41money when he was working as a political consultant in Ukraine,
0:05:41 > 0:05:48which he then did not declare to the US tax authorities. This is the
0:05:48 > 0:05:53overarching allegation that Russian money in Ukrainian politics
0:05:53 > 0:05:57influenced Mr Manafort and that turned into influence with President
0:05:57 > 0:06:01Trump when he was campaigning. This intersects with the political
0:06:01 > 0:06:08argument, we have a Mr Papadopoulos. He has admitted to having contacts
0:06:08 > 0:06:13with the Russians and lying to the FBI about it. So these two things,
0:06:13 > 0:06:17money and politics, are converging. Did money lead to political
0:06:17 > 0:06:20influence and did that lead to collusion with the Russians in the
0:06:20 > 0:06:25election.You have spent some time in Ukraine, you have been gathering
0:06:25 > 0:06:28evidence of what Mr Manafort was up to there, what have you learned?The
0:06:28 > 0:06:33bad news for Mr Manafort started in April 2016, when a page from a
0:06:33 > 0:06:37ledger belonging to the party of the regions was leaked. Next to Mr
0:06:37 > 0:06:42Manafort's name was an amount 12. $12.5 million. He's always denied
0:06:42 > 0:06:45that meant he got paid this money. In Ukraine over the past week we
0:06:45 > 0:06:51were able to meet with people who dealt with the secret internal
0:06:51 > 0:06:57investigation. They infiltrated an agent in Mr Manafort's operation.
0:06:57 > 0:07:03They found and other sources tell them that he was paid $600,000 a
0:07:03 > 0:07:08month over four years, 28. $28.8 million to be precise. That is the
0:07:08 > 0:07:11funds detailed in one ledger. They believe there are two further
0:07:11 > 0:07:16ledgers. The sums really in the words of one Ukrainian MP to me are
0:07:16 > 0:07:21staggering. The allegation is you don't just get this from being a
0:07:21 > 0:07:25political conyouant. This is for influence.What do you make of the
0:07:25 > 0:07:30Trump defence today?Their defence is that it's all a witch-hunt. In Mr
0:07:30 > 0:07:34Manafort's case, I spoke to him about this. He said he was trying to
0:07:34 > 0:07:38bring Ukraine closer to the West, closer to the EU. He was getting
0:07:38 > 0:07:43paid as a political conthant. The idea that he was a Russian agent is
0:07:43 > 0:07:48nonsense. Mr Trump has trotted out this witch-hunt line quite a lo. He
0:07:48 > 0:07:53is right there is no evidence yet of a treasonous conspiracy, no evidence
0:07:53 > 0:07:57of collusion. That intersection between money and politics, the
0:07:57 > 0:08:01investigators are looking at whether Russian money bought Trump real
0:08:01 > 0:08:06estate and they are looking at meetings that Mr Trump's own son had
0:08:06 > 0:08:11with Russian officials. The same problems that Mr Manafort is facing.
0:08:11 > 0:08:16Behind-the-scenes that's where the investigators are looking to. (
0:08:16 > 0:08:18Let us assess the damage a little more closely.
0:08:18 > 0:08:20Joining me from Washington is Susan Glasser -
0:08:20 > 0:08:22founding Editor of the political news magazine - Politico.
0:08:22 > 0:08:29And from Los Angeles Charlotte Laws - author and political commentator.
0:08:29 > 0:08:32Charlotte, let's start with you - how serious is this for the
0:08:32 > 0:08:37president?I don't think it's president at all. Manafort, the
0:08:37 > 0:08:42so-called or alleged financial crimes, began a decade ago. Really
0:08:42 > 0:08:49they have absolutely nothing to do with President Trump. The
0:08:49 > 0:08:55Papadopoulos situation is nothing as well. He was a volunteer for the
0:08:55 > 0:08:59campaign. There was a movie recently with Richard Gere called the rise
0:08:59 > 0:09:04and fall of the New York fixer, I think this kid, and I say kid
0:09:04 > 0:09:09because 30 years old, probably naive. He probably wanted to be
0:09:09 > 0:09:14indispensable to Trump. He wanted to be a fixer, where he put together
0:09:14 > 0:09:22Trump with Putin. He had an ego about. It he was over the internet
0:09:22 > 0:09:26talking about Trump liking him so much. That's what it's really about.
0:09:26 > 0:09:29He's trying to make himself seem bigger than he was really was. It
0:09:29 > 0:09:34just blew up on him because he didn't realise there was something
0:09:34 > 0:09:39illegal with having to do this activity.Susan, do you think this
0:09:39 > 0:09:44is serious for the president? Which of these two stories, the
0:09:44 > 0:09:49Papadopoulos one or the other one, which is the more important?Well,
0:09:49 > 0:09:56looking, the answers we don't know yet. This is the first time since
0:09:56 > 0:10:011974 when the campaign manager for Richard Nixon was dieted and
0:10:01 > 0:10:03charged, that we've had something like this in the United States. It
0:10:03 > 0:10:07is certainly a big deal, when the Guy who was the campaign chairman
0:10:07 > 0:10:11for the man who then became the president of the United States is
0:10:11 > 0:10:14dieted on charges that have to do with influence peddling and that
0:10:14 > 0:10:20have to do with lying to the US Federal Government about it, during
0:10:20 > 0:10:25and after the presidential campaign we had last year. That's one thing.
0:10:25 > 0:10:29The Papadopoulos revelations are really the big news in many ways in
0:10:29 > 0:10:32Washington today. It's a total surprise. This is a story nobody
0:10:32 > 0:10:36knew anything about. It suggests how tightly under wraps this
0:10:36 > 0:10:42investigation is. It does bring the Russia collusion story directly
0:10:42 > 0:10:46inside the Trump campaign for the first time.One of the theories
0:10:46 > 0:10:50about all of this is that this is just the start and the Manifesto
0:10:50 > 0:10:54Club story is going to turn out to be much bigger because they've got
0:10:54 > 0:11:00something on him. Now they can start trying to plead with him and get him
0:11:00 > 0:11:04to cooperate with them to avoid serious jail sentences on the charge
0:11:04 > 0:11:10that's are currently facing him. If that happens, don't you go step by
0:11:10 > 0:11:20step towards the White House itself? Well, again...Sorry, Susan first.
0:11:20 > 0:11:25The history of prosecutions suggests that it's a very common tactic to
0:11:25 > 0:11:29bring charges on financial matters or things like that and then to
0:11:29 > 0:11:34build the bigger case slowly, some of the testimony that's emerged
0:11:34 > 0:11:40today, includes a lawyer for Mueller saying at the plea hearing of George
0:11:40 > 0:11:45Papadopoulos that this was a small part of a very large investigation.
0:11:45 > 0:11:49Many people here in Washington are wondering very much how close to
0:11:49 > 0:11:54President Trump it does go. I think a lot of people feel it stretches
0:11:54 > 0:12:00credibility to have the president himself and also his White House
0:12:00 > 0:12:03spokesperson making such claims from the Government podium today about
0:12:03 > 0:12:08the president having nothing to do with any of this and making it seem
0:12:08 > 0:12:11as though the campaign chairman was barely involved with the campaign.
0:12:11 > 0:12:15This is the kind of thing his lawyers would never advise him to
0:12:15 > 0:12:19do, the president, to get in the middle of commenting on this now.
0:12:19 > 0:12:23Don't you worry that this is just a little step and there's going to be
0:12:23 > 0:12:27more steps and they will eventually lead to the White House?I don't
0:12:27 > 0:12:33think so. Because I don't think there's any there there. It is
0:12:33 > 0:12:37possible that Mueller who has the authority to take this investigation
0:12:37 > 0:12:43anywhere he wants, he might start investigating the Democrats. There
0:12:43 > 0:12:47was a dossier funded by the Democrats and Hillary Clinton. It's
0:12:47 > 0:12:51possible there could be indictments across both aisles. This could be
0:12:51 > 0:12:56the end of the investigation. We don't really know. We will have to
0:12:56 > 0:13:02wait and see.We will, but Susan is it the case that Trump supporters,
0:13:02 > 0:13:07at least for the time being, will say look, this is just more people
0:13:07 > 0:13:11trying to obstruct the president from getting on with what he wants
0:13:11 > 0:13:15to get on with. Just get out of the way and let him be president.
0:13:15 > 0:13:20Clearly this is what they're saying. Your other guests seems to have the
0:13:20 > 0:13:23talking points hand out sheet. I think you have to judge each piece
0:13:23 > 0:13:30of this on its own. People make a mistake to be pun doubts when it
0:13:30 > 0:13:33comes to an investigation, which we know little to nothing about. It's
0:13:33 > 0:13:37clear that these are serious charges that have been filed against Paul
0:13:37 > 0:13:46Manafort. The scale of the funds involved are eye popping. What he's
0:13:46 > 0:13:52charged with here in the United States is having $18 million in
0:13:52 > 0:13:57alleged money laundering flowing through accounts. An additional $75
0:13:57 > 0:14:02million going through what amounted to an effort to secretly lobby the
0:14:02 > 0:14:09US government here in Washington on behalf of Ukrainian president, and
0:14:09 > 0:14:15then to cover it up. Those are serious allegations. One of the
0:14:15 > 0:14:17reasons this investigation started with Paul Manafort, it should be
0:14:17 > 0:14:21noted. This investigation was already occurring. Then it was
0:14:21 > 0:14:27wrapped up in the larger probe. So there is a natural logic to it. We
0:14:27 > 0:14:36should take it for what it's worth right now.
0:14:36 > 0:14:38Hard to believe that the Harvey Weinstein scandal
0:14:38 > 0:14:41erupted only 25 days ago, with a piece in the New York Times.
0:14:41 > 0:14:43It was perhaps inevitable that it would quickly
0:14:43 > 0:14:48find its way to Westminster.
0:14:48 > 0:14:50Like Hollywood, Parliament is a male-dominated,
0:14:50 > 0:14:51status obsessed environment, where socialising and work
0:14:51 > 0:14:52blend into each other.
0:14:52 > 0:14:54And where ambitious young people offer their labour
0:14:54 > 0:14:56to the more powerful.
0:14:56 > 0:14:59It's clear that sexual harassment and assault have been far from rare,
0:14:59 > 0:15:01and shoved under the threadbare carpets of the Palace
0:15:01 > 0:15:04of Westminster.
0:15:04 > 0:15:07Oddly, one revelation is that parliament has not really offered
0:15:07 > 0:15:12employees working within its walls, much protection or support.
0:15:12 > 0:15:15But news of "What's App" groups and sex pest dossiers have led
0:15:15 > 0:15:16to a rapid reaction.
0:15:16 > 0:15:19Westminster does not want this to be a new Expenses scandal
0:15:19 > 0:15:22or a return to sleaze.
0:15:22 > 0:15:26Here's our political editor, Nick Watt.
0:15:26 > 0:15:31Very overly sexual banter in the office.
0:15:31 > 0:15:34Comments about your physical appearance.
0:15:34 > 0:15:39Your breasts, your body shape, all that type of thing.
0:15:39 > 0:15:42Groping, lunging, harassment in terms of people asking
0:15:42 > 0:15:45you for dates and sort of texting you nonstop.
0:15:45 > 0:15:47Right up to things which probably would cross into more
0:15:47 > 0:15:55criminal activity as well.
0:15:55 > 0:15:57Westminster, the Riverside Royal Palace, which has a reputation
0:15:57 > 0:16:01for protecting its own, is being prised open.
0:16:01 > 0:16:05Victims of sexual harassment now feel able to speak out in the wake
0:16:05 > 0:16:08of the Harvey Weinstein allegations.
0:16:08 > 0:16:10And Parliament is responding.
0:16:10 > 0:16:13Let me make it clear.
0:16:13 > 0:16:17There must be zero tolerance of sexual harassment or bullying
0:16:17 > 0:16:26here at Westminster or elsewhere.
0:16:26 > 0:16:29Whether that involves members or their staff or Parliamentary
0:16:29 > 0:16:38staff or those working on or visiting the estate.
0:16:38 > 0:16:43The government made clear that MPs will have to change their ways.
0:16:43 > 0:16:46I'm well aware that the public rightly expect MPs to display
0:16:46 > 0:16:49the highest standards.
0:16:49 > 0:16:53And as the Prime Minister outlined in her letter yesterday,
0:16:53 > 0:16:55there can be no place for harassment, abuse
0:16:55 > 0:17:00or misconduct in politics.
0:17:00 > 0:17:03Your age, gender or job title should have no bearing
0:17:03 > 0:17:08on the way you are treated in a modern workplace.
0:17:08 > 0:17:11And nobody is an exception to that.
0:17:11 > 0:17:14Today did feel like a significant moment.
0:17:14 > 0:17:17As parliament finally caught up with the 21st century.
0:17:17 > 0:17:21MPs have traditionally guarded their right to police Westminster.
0:17:21 > 0:17:25The first challenge to that came with the expenses scandal.
0:17:25 > 0:17:27And now there is cross-party consensus on the need
0:17:27 > 0:17:32for an external process to support victims of sexual harassment.
0:17:32 > 0:17:37But some voices are wondering whether today really
0:17:37 > 0:17:39will be a seminal moment, if MPs accused of inappropriate
0:17:39 > 0:17:49behaviour are able to remain in the shadows.
0:17:50 > 0:17:53One Tory veteran does believes change is on the way.
0:17:53 > 0:17:54Ending the role of whips policing complaints
0:17:54 > 0:17:55about inappropriate behaviour.
0:17:55 > 0:17:58One of the major roles of whips is intelligence gathering.
0:17:58 > 0:18:00To try and avoid problems in the first place.
0:18:00 > 0:18:04Not necessarily blackmail MPs, but simply to avoid problems arising
0:18:04 > 0:18:14if you know what their views are on a number of subjects.
0:18:15 > 0:18:16That is good whipping.
0:18:16 > 0:18:20Whether the role of the whips to act as some sort of quasi policeman,
0:18:20 > 0:18:22particularly if a crime has not been actually committed,
0:18:22 > 0:18:23that is another question.
0:18:23 > 0:18:25Every whip's office will have a big
0:18:25 > 0:18:28black file on MPs and that will include bad behaviour
0:18:28 > 0:18:36including sexual harassment.
0:18:36 > 0:18:39And sometimes there has been a feeling that the whips office know
0:18:39 > 0:18:42there are people doing bad behaviour, whether it is drinking
0:18:42 > 0:18:43too much or you know being inappropriate.
0:18:43 > 0:18:46But they're not actually going to do anything in terms
0:18:46 > 0:18:47of disciplining those people.
0:18:47 > 0:18:50But they will use that information to help them when it comes
0:18:50 > 0:18:53to leveraging them to vote in a certain way or other things.
0:18:53 > 0:18:55But Michael Fabricant fears a witchhunt.
0:18:55 > 0:18:58It's not fair, actually, to base things on rumour.
0:18:58 > 0:19:05There has to be evidence.
0:19:05 > 0:19:13And there mustn't be witchhunts either.
0:19:13 > 0:19:15I feel there is a growing witchhunt mentality currently going on-
0:19:15 > 0:19:17we've got to ensure that inappropriate behaviour
0:19:17 > 0:19:19is stamped out, it is wrong, it is unprofessional.
0:19:19 > 0:19:23But at the same time we do not want to see individuals who have
0:19:23 > 0:19:25been blameless being accused of things which maybe they have not
0:19:25 > 0:19:28really done or maybe at the time everyone was sloshed,
0:19:28 > 0:19:30I don't know.
0:19:30 > 0:19:33You sometimes get that and we've got to be very careful we don't get
0:19:33 > 0:19:37into that situation.
0:19:37 > 0:19:41Aisha believes this is a deeply serious moment.
0:19:41 > 0:19:44I have known it from my own experience as I started at the age
0:19:44 > 0:19:45of 21 in Westminster.
0:19:45 > 0:19:47I was lunged at myself and this happened a number
0:19:47 > 0:19:49of times through my career.
0:19:49 > 0:19:52This is not a problem which is just restricted to one political party.
0:19:52 > 0:19:57It is happening in every single political party right now.
0:19:57 > 0:20:00And I think what people in positions of power, MPs,
0:20:00 > 0:20:03need to know is that actually a lot of women and younger men as well
0:20:03 > 0:20:08have had enough of it and they're talking to each other.
0:20:08 > 0:20:10I think these lists are being compiled across every
0:20:10 > 0:20:15single party right now.
0:20:15 > 0:20:21Westminster is a notoriously secretive culture.
0:20:21 > 0:20:24Pressure from the outside world may at last force change.
0:20:24 > 0:20:34Assuming no return to the old closed ways.
0:20:39 > 0:20:40Joining me is Bernard Jenkin - Chairman
0:20:40 > 0:20:42of the Constitutional Affairs Select Committee.
0:20:42 > 0:20:44And here in the studio - Stella Creasey -
0:20:44 > 0:20:46Labour MP for Walthamstow and the Daily Telegraph's
0:20:46 > 0:20:50Laura Hughes.
0:20:50 > 0:20:55And Nick Watt has some late news. The Sun newspaper reporting that
0:20:55 > 0:20:59Defence Secretary Michael Fallon has admitted in improperly touching a
0:20:59 > 0:21:05female journalist, the radio presenter Julia Hartley Brewer. This
0:21:05 > 0:21:08happened 15 years ago it is important to say and they both
0:21:08 > 0:21:12considered the matter closed. A spokesman for Michael Fallon said he
0:21:12 > 0:21:15had apologised when the incident happened 15 years ago and both he
0:21:15 > 0:21:20and Julia now consider it close. A friend of Michael Fallon says there
0:21:20 > 0:21:23are good friends, he overstepped the mark putting his hand on her knee
0:21:23 > 0:21:27and she made clear it was unwelcome and he immediately apologised 15
0:21:27 > 0:21:33years ago. This came about because Julia put out a lengthy statement
0:21:33 > 0:21:35today and mentioned the incident, did not mention who the minister
0:21:35 > 0:21:42was. She did not think it was serious enough. She said I regarded
0:21:42 > 0:21:48it as mildly amusing.Before getting into the generalities, let's ask
0:21:48 > 0:21:52about reaction to that particular story. Bernard, we've heard some of
0:21:52 > 0:22:01the context. What do you think? Having read the comment from Julia,
0:22:01 > 0:22:06making a distinction between what might be proper harassment, she does
0:22:06 > 0:22:13not consider that this was harassment. She regards it as an
0:22:13 > 0:22:16inappropriately flirtatious moment and that is the end of it. And let
0:22:16 > 0:22:21us be clear, the more serious issues that are being discussed are where
0:22:21 > 0:22:27people have wanted to complain, have felt unable to complain or have
0:22:27 > 0:22:30complained and legitimate complaints have not been dealt with. That is
0:22:30 > 0:22:35not in that category. It also tells us that we are in a bit of a media
0:22:35 > 0:22:39storm where anything is going to generate a headline. However
0:22:39 > 0:22:44trivial. I do not suggest that is completely trivial but obviously
0:22:44 > 0:22:49much less than this other stuff.And Stella Creasy, do you agree with
0:22:49 > 0:22:56that on this specific case?I'm not the person we should be making a
0:22:56 > 0:22:59judgment on this, we need processes were professionals deal with
0:22:59 > 0:23:03complaints. And the people involved have the right to say what has
0:23:03 > 0:23:08happened. This is one problem, this kind of speculation.But Julia was
0:23:08 > 0:23:12not going to complain to anyone and has made clear she would never have
0:23:12 > 0:23:19done that. I agree that we need professional systems for the we know
0:23:19 > 0:23:22there are a series of complaints, a series of concerns and we should
0:23:22 > 0:23:27talk about how to address that instead of individual cases.Laura,
0:23:27 > 0:23:32you have been working on this for quite some time, before Harvey
0:23:32 > 0:23:37Weinstein brought it into the public domain. How big the problem is it in
0:23:37 > 0:23:41Westminster and is it a bigger problem in Westminster than anywhere
0:23:41 > 0:23:48else in society customer you need to look a parliament, 650 small
0:23:48 > 0:23:51businesses as it were with no HR department.If you have that in the
0:23:51 > 0:23:54real-world of course you would have a handful of bad employers who acted
0:23:54 > 0:23:59inappropriately. I've been looking into MPs for a long time and talking
0:23:59 > 0:24:06to a lot of staff it is a handful, a large handful. 10%? I have worked
0:24:06 > 0:24:11with some really good MPs who have been determined to help expose this.
0:24:11 > 0:24:17What I have been looking into, it is a serious cases, I have spoken to
0:24:17 > 0:24:22women who went to the Parliamentary authorities and set them I have been
0:24:22 > 0:24:26sexually assaulted by one of your MPs. What are you going to do about
0:24:26 > 0:24:30it and they were told there is nothing we can do.That is where the
0:24:30 > 0:24:36scandal is in.The scandal is there's nothing to protect young
0:24:36 > 0:24:40people. I myself am 25 and I started to look into this because I got to
0:24:40 > 0:24:46know a lot of researchers and staff and it is not just sexual harassment
0:24:46 > 0:24:50but also bullying, unreasonable expectations because these are very
0:24:50 > 0:24:56young people. Not just Tory men and young females but every gender,
0:24:56 > 0:25:03every party and in all different angles. We need to be looking at the
0:25:03 > 0:25:07cases where serious sexual assault allegations have been made and not
0:25:07 > 0:25:17acted upon. To me that is absolutely extraordinary in 2017.Let's turn to
0:25:17 > 0:25:20MPs, Bernard Howell has Parliament allowed this to persist? You don't
0:25:20 > 0:25:27need Harvey Weinstein case to tell you this is rubbish.It is
0:25:27 > 0:25:31particularly difficult to regulate Parliament because as individuals
0:25:31 > 0:25:36and as an institution we are sovereign, we have to have
0:25:36 > 0:25:41particular privileges and immunities to fulfil our constitutional
0:25:41 > 0:25:50function. And also to...You don't need to grow people.I'm not
0:25:50 > 0:25:53excusing that, I'm just saying why it is difficult to regulate
0:25:53 > 0:25:59Parliament. But Parliament tends to be behind what is happening in other
0:25:59 > 0:26:01corporations and public institutions. Other public
0:26:01 > 0:26:04institutions and dare I say the BBC have had their difficulties with
0:26:04 > 0:26:08this sort of thing and they are catching up. And we had catching up
0:26:08 > 0:26:20to do as well.Why did you not raise this?You do not know that we had
0:26:20 > 0:26:24not raised things. When you're dealing with people who are in
0:26:24 > 0:26:30positions of power and taking powerful decisions, questions about
0:26:30 > 0:26:35an imbalance of power, it is all ultimately about professionalism.
0:26:35 > 0:26:42Yup 650 small businesses with no HR function, Laura is right. People
0:26:42 > 0:26:45will not experience of managing people. And not just Parliament, it
0:26:45 > 0:26:50is about the political culture. Many people who work in politics are
0:26:50 > 0:26:54maybe those who want to go on to positions, whether journalists,
0:26:54 > 0:26:57researchers, working in think tanks or whatever, the idea was speaking
0:26:57 > 0:27:05out on someone, any woman or young man who did that would know for the
0:27:05 > 0:27:09rest of their career that would be associated with them.What is
0:27:09 > 0:27:15important and what many young people and any age in fact, working for an
0:27:15 > 0:27:19MP, when you look at putting in a new HR structure and must be
0:27:19 > 0:27:29independent of Parliament. Parliament is suffering.Where you
0:27:29 > 0:27:31have criminal matters they need to be investigated. But were also
0:27:31 > 0:27:35talking about a culture, constructive dismissal essentially
0:27:35 > 0:27:40because it is intolerable for anyone to work in an environment where your
0:27:40 > 0:27:47bullied or harassed, and actually... I could be sacked for doing that but
0:27:47 > 0:27:52the only people that can sack you are the people who are appointed
0:27:52 > 0:27:58you, the voters.So can you sack an MP? There are sanctions against MPs
0:27:58 > 0:28:02which effectively would amount to sacking. We have talked about
0:28:02 > 0:28:09possibly having recall. That would be an idea. But we have the code of
0:28:09 > 0:28:15conduct, we would not be having this conversation if that works. But when
0:28:15 > 0:28:18you say health we called it out before, the committee that I'd share
0:28:18 > 0:28:22a submitted evidence to the review of this thing we need a complete
0:28:22 > 0:28:27rethink because there's a lot in your buck lobbying and financial
0:28:27 > 0:28:31interests and conflicts of interest. A little bit about principles of
0:28:31 > 0:28:35Public life at the beginning but virtually nothing about how we
0:28:35 > 0:28:39should discuss that, how we should develop professional competencies as
0:28:39 > 0:28:45employers. What kind of leaders we should be seeking to develop.But we
0:28:45 > 0:28:50all know that groping is not acceptable without reading the code
0:28:50 > 0:28:56of conduct.One worry I had today, Andrea Leadsom talked about victims
0:28:56 > 0:29:00but nothing about what could happen to the perpetrators.Would you
0:29:00 > 0:29:07support recall, the voters being told what was happening and given a
0:29:07 > 0:29:14chance to do that.That is one piece of the armoury that we might deploy.
0:29:14 > 0:29:18But it is the voters who will appoint you. There's a huge amount
0:29:18 > 0:29:22of confusion about values, principles, rules and sanctions. It
0:29:22 > 0:29:28needs a complete rethink. As there has been a complete rethink in many
0:29:28 > 0:29:33other walks of life but not in Parliament.I think if you're
0:29:33 > 0:29:35confused about whether it is appropriate to put your hand on
0:29:35 > 0:29:39someone's knee... I think there is an issue as well with constructive
0:29:39 > 0:29:45dismissal and how to make sure it is a professional working environment.
0:29:45 > 0:29:49Belatedly sanctions as well and that is what we did not hear today.The
0:29:49 > 0:29:52rules are confusing because looking at the code of conduct and with
0:29:52 > 0:29:57respect policy, it covers relationships between house staff.
0:29:57 > 0:30:02It does not deal with the relationship between an MP and there
0:30:02 > 0:30:08staff member. And it says that point you might make about an MP might be
0:30:08 > 0:30:11considered about their personal life.
0:30:11 > 0:30:151 The whips have been the go to people. You're assaulted by your
0:30:15 > 0:30:19boss, you go to the whips, who are the most cynical people, so
0:30:19 > 0:30:23conflicting.That's why there was push back in our party against
0:30:23 > 0:30:25so-called independent mediation service because actually it was
0:30:25 > 0:30:31proposed that the whips and party volunteers should be the mediators,
0:30:31 > 0:30:34including incidentally somebody from Conservative future and look what
0:30:34 > 0:30:38they turned out to be like. If we're going to have an independent
0:30:38 > 0:30:42mediation service -The whips can't do it can they?No, the whips cannot
0:30:42 > 0:30:50do it.We need third party reporting. I want it done by
0:30:50 > 0:30:54professionals with experience with sexual harassment or misogyny.We
0:30:54 > 0:30:58end on that note. Thank you.
0:30:58 > 0:31:01Now - a lot has been going in Westminster and the US,
0:31:01 > 0:31:03but no-one is taking their eye off Barcelona.
0:31:03 > 0:31:05First day back at work in Catalonia after the declaration
0:31:05 > 0:31:07of independence on Friday, and the decision of the Spanish
0:31:07 > 0:31:10government to take more control over what it sees as a renegade region.
0:31:10 > 0:31:13Emily is there.
0:31:13 > 0:31:21Thanks. A real sense of norm al-Agassi in the square -- normalcy
0:31:21 > 0:31:25in the square behind me. Madrid will be breathing a huge sigh of relief
0:31:25 > 0:31:30tonight. All eyes on how the central government would act after its
0:31:30 > 0:31:32incredibly heavy handed violent approach with the voters last month
0:31:32 > 0:31:36in the referendum that viewers will remember well. Today, there was
0:31:36 > 0:31:40little physical sign of interference, but there was one very
0:31:40 > 0:31:47large threat - charges of treason brought against Carles Puigdemont,
0:31:47 > 0:31:50the sacked Catalan president, by Spanish prosecutors. Tonight it's
0:31:50 > 0:31:54confirmed he has fled to Belgium to seek political asylum. He's due o
0:31:54 > 0:31:57give a press conference there tomorrow. We don't know exactly
0:31:57 > 0:32:01where. Some already fear a diplomatic incident could be brewing
0:32:01 > 0:32:06between Belgium and Spain. Here, meanwhile, no-one's even attempting
0:32:06 > 0:32:10to pretend they know what happens now. We're going to be talking to a
0:32:10 > 0:32:13key member of the independence movement on the left in a moment.
0:32:13 > 0:32:19First this is my attempt to make sense of today.
0:32:19 > 0:32:23In the silhouettes of Barcelona's Gothic streets we find ourselves
0:32:23 > 0:32:27checking every face, every corner, the familiar figure of Carles
0:32:27 > 0:32:32Puigdemont hasn't been seen for days. The city's a strange twilight
0:32:32 > 0:32:37zone. No-one's sure who's in charge or how it's run. The shadowed wing
0:32:37 > 0:32:41span of Madrid hovers over this autonomous region. It may be about
0:32:41 > 0:32:46to swoop. It hasn't yet. By daylight, we're all at the central
0:32:46 > 0:32:50square, looking for answers to the simplest question: Who will turn up
0:32:50 > 0:32:57to work. This is a quiet market square, one huge political
0:32:57 > 0:33:04conundrum. Behind me the government of Catalonia now under the control
0:33:04 > 0:33:10of the Madrid government after they invoked article 155 and on this side
0:33:10 > 0:33:16the City Hall, home to the Barcelona male who resists article 155. At the
0:33:16 > 0:33:19moment it's still hers. Who knows how that will change over coming
0:33:19 > 0:33:24days. The deposed president of Catalonia set Instagram alight first
0:33:24 > 0:33:33thing, posting this picture of his office with a cheery "good day". He
0:33:33 > 0:33:40tells me he thinks he's inside. "He came in, he waved at the people," he
0:33:40 > 0:33:45says. We find out it's not actually true. I ask the Catalan police
0:33:45 > 0:33:48guarding the building in the ministers are inside. He tells me he
0:33:48 > 0:33:54doesn't know. If they don't clear their desks, I ask? We know nothing,
0:33:54 > 0:34:01he repeats. We're just here to keep the peace. Misinterpretation and
0:34:01 > 0:34:04misinformation have been at the heart of this whole story. Madrid
0:34:04 > 0:34:08re-Kently declared it wanted to "restore impartiality to the Catalan
0:34:08 > 0:34:17air waves". So we head to TV 3.Hi Emily.The Government funded
0:34:17 > 0:34:22broadcaster to ask rack el, the main news presenter, if anything has
0:34:22 > 0:34:26changed.We're under scrutiny but that doesn't force me to do things
0:34:26 > 0:34:31differently. I keep on being critical, as I try to be everysingle
0:34:31 > 0:34:34day, which is complicated under these circumstances. But we don't
0:34:34 > 0:34:39allow that to stop us to do the job that we have to do.Do you feel
0:34:39 > 0:34:42there is pressure from Puigdemont, from his team, to tell the story in
0:34:42 > 0:34:45a certain way? Have you come under that pressure politically as a
0:34:45 > 0:34:52journalist?No. Not my colleagues, I bet this happens on like higher
0:34:52 > 0:34:56levels I would say, but not here in the newsroom. All politicians try to
0:34:56 > 0:35:01influence. It would be naive not to accept that.As we talk, we hear
0:35:01 > 0:35:05news from Madrid - Spain's prosecutor has brought charges of
0:35:05 > 0:35:10sedition and rebellion against the deposed Catalan president. Now it's
0:35:10 > 0:35:16up to Puigdemont's party to respond. The hastily assembled press
0:35:16 > 0:35:20conference is a messy affair. Will he go jail? He's facing charges now?
0:35:20 > 0:35:25The charges are there, but I think that democracy should be the
0:35:25 > 0:35:31reference and we cannot accept what is the general attorney is saying.
0:35:31 > 0:35:35We will face these charges. But of course we will be always with the
0:35:35 > 0:35:38president, with the members of the Parliament and of course with the
0:35:38 > 0:35:42president of the Parliament.She won't tell us where Puigdemont is.
0:35:42 > 0:35:47It soon emerges he, perhaps his entire government, have fled to
0:35:47 > 0:35:50Belgium, where they've been offered some form of political asylum. Just
0:35:50 > 0:35:53when you thought things couldn't get any weirder, imagine the
0:35:53 > 0:35:57implications of this - one European country, with its own separatist
0:35:57 > 0:36:03issues, stepping in to save another European leader from jail by his own
0:36:03 > 0:36:08central government. Deep breaths needed.
0:36:08 > 0:36:13Mr Puigdemont won the heart of separatists when he declared
0:36:13 > 0:36:17Catalonia a state last Friday. Mass demonstrations by unionists over the
0:36:17 > 0:36:24weekend are a timely reminder he's left many others furious.What's
0:36:24 > 0:36:29happening here is like Puigdemont is a dictator, that's it. Catalonia we
0:36:29 > 0:36:33were living fine, so why it's happening that now? I don't really
0:36:33 > 0:36:38know why people need to make this to Catalonia.I lost a lot of friends,
0:36:38 > 0:36:45like we talk about politics, it's impossible to talk about because
0:36:45 > 0:36:51they turn aggressive and don't respect the other's opinion.Perhaps
0:36:51 > 0:36:55it's only when the streets fall silent again you realise the noise
0:36:55 > 0:37:00on either side comes from a pretty small minority. Most people, even
0:37:00 > 0:37:04those proud to call themselves born and bred Catalans, simply don't
0:37:04 > 0:37:08understand why their leader chose this fight right now, when the
0:37:08 > 0:37:12economic crisis is finally at an end, when Catalonia appears to be
0:37:12 > 0:37:17doing so well. Make no mistake, this may have begun here in Barcelona,
0:37:17 > 0:37:19but its repercussions stretch across the country and the continent
0:37:19 > 0:37:24itself. Something's been unleashed, no-one quite knows whether it will
0:37:24 > 0:37:31go back in its cage or seek new pastures to prowl.
0:37:31 > 0:37:35I guess that's what we're going to find out over the coming days,
0:37:35 > 0:37:38whether that something will actually take root, have momentum or whether
0:37:38 > 0:37:43we'll see it quietly fade again to nothing, at least until the upcoming
0:37:43 > 0:37:51elections of December 21. With me now Alfred Bosc from the Republican
0:37:51 > 0:37:54pro-Independence Party, a key voice on the left. Do you think this is a
0:37:54 > 0:37:59day that Madrid can call a success, because actually, no violence, it's
0:37:59 > 0:38:01gone according to plan and the whole Catalan government, as we
0:38:01 > 0:38:06understand, is in Belgium?For the first time, we must admit that the
0:38:06 > 0:38:09Spanish government instead of resorting to violence and repression
0:38:09 > 0:38:14have had the day in the sense that they can argue that they have a
0:38:14 > 0:38:18democratic solution or exit to the conflict. Although, of course, as
0:38:18 > 0:38:24you know, the Catalan government has been sacked. It was a democratically
0:38:24 > 0:38:28elected government. Hundreds of people are being sacked. Of course,
0:38:28 > 0:38:32the memory of the referendum where people were brutalised by the
0:38:32 > 0:38:37police. Now I think they've found, probably because somebody pressed
0:38:37 > 0:38:40them, democratic exit out of this conflict.So do you think that
0:38:40 > 0:38:44Puigdemont has done the right thing by leaving to go to Belgium? Or does
0:38:44 > 0:38:48it seem to you cowardly - is he running away from the fight here?
0:38:48 > 0:38:52Please remind the whole world that there's half of a government that's
0:38:52 > 0:38:55in Belgium and the other half of the Catalan government that's here in
0:38:55 > 0:38:59Barcelona right now. We saw them this morning going to their offices
0:38:59 > 0:39:02-That was one person here who turned up to work. That's what we
0:39:02 > 0:39:07understood.No, the Vice President, I was with the Vice President the
0:39:07 > 0:39:13whole day. He's from my party. He went to his office. He went to the
0:39:13 > 0:39:19party executive. He went to Parliament.What is he doing here
0:39:19 > 0:39:23now, though? There's nothing for him to run. He's been sacked. He's not
0:39:23 > 0:39:30in charge. What work is he doing? He's not accepting as a whole. We're
0:39:30 > 0:39:33not accepting the repressive measures of the government. These
0:39:33 > 0:39:37people were elected. They were chosen by Parliament through these
0:39:37 > 0:39:42Catalan elections. For us those are the only legitimate rulers of
0:39:42 > 0:39:45Catalonia.Today we heard from Puigdemont's own party that yes,
0:39:45 > 0:39:51they will go and fight the elections in December 21. This is a concession
0:39:51 > 0:39:55to Madrid that that's going to be the next step. These are elections
0:39:55 > 0:39:58called by Madrid, right.It's a concession by everybody, because
0:39:58 > 0:40:05obviously what you say is right. But we also have to admit that Rajoy
0:40:05 > 0:40:08said there would be no elections in the near future. He said at least
0:40:08 > 0:40:14six months or one year of direct rule by Spain and finish whatever
0:40:14 > 0:40:19was present here in terms of home rule.Do you feel the effects of
0:40:19 > 0:40:25article 155 now on this city?Yeah. Of course. Like the whole government
0:40:25 > 0:40:31has been kicked out. In theory, at least, you find people working as
0:40:31 > 0:40:42usual. But they've been kicked out. The decareer has been -- decree has
0:40:42 > 0:40:46been signed. It's a tricky situation, where reality doesn't
0:40:46 > 0:40:53really fit in with all the laws and orders that Madrid is giving. We're
0:40:53 > 0:40:56somewhere in between. We'll see how things evolve.Very good of you to
0:40:56 > 0:41:01join us here. Thanks for your thoughts. This is the building
0:41:01 > 0:41:05behind me where Carles Puigdemont would ideally be making his press
0:41:05 > 0:41:09conference speeches from tomorrow. Of course, he's not. The sacked
0:41:09 > 0:41:13former Catalan president is now in Belgium. He's going to be speaking
0:41:13 > 0:41:18to what we assume will be the world's press from there. It will be
0:41:18 > 0:41:24an interesting week ahead. Back to you.
0:41:24 > 0:41:27Just time to look at the papers. The Daily Telegraph, we heard from Laura
0:41:27 > 0:41:32Hughes there. She was next to me earlier, sex scandal could be worse
0:41:32 > 0:41:41than expenses is their headline. A picture of Manafort, no Kevin Spacey
0:41:41 > 0:41:46on the front. And on the Times as well. Ministers face being fired in
0:41:46 > 0:41:50sex pests crack down. Both papers leading on that.
0:41:50 > 0:41:52That's all we have time for.
0:41:52 > 0:41:53Kirsty's here tomorrow.
0:41:53 > 0:41:54Till then, goodnight.