0:00:03 > 0:00:07The programme starts with testimony that some viewers may find
0:00:07 > 0:00:12upsetting. In recent days allegations have been
0:00:12 > 0:00:17made about some MPs' conduct including my own. Some of these
0:00:17 > 0:00:21allegations are false but I have realised that in the past I have
0:00:21 > 0:00:27fallen below the high standards we require from the Armed Forces.
0:00:27 > 0:00:29What started as a scandal in Hollywood has become
0:00:29 > 0:00:31a crisis in Westminster, with one of Theresa May's
0:00:31 > 0:00:33key cabinet colleagues, the Defence Secretary
0:00:33 > 0:00:34Michael Fallon, stepping down.
0:00:34 > 0:00:36His scalp may be a ministerial first.
0:00:36 > 0:00:37It may not be the last.
0:00:37 > 0:00:40But the issue of sexual harassment goes way beyond Westminster.
0:00:40 > 0:00:42Tonight, we've chosen to give this subject the full studio treament.
0:00:42 > 0:00:44How are men behaving towards women?
0:00:44 > 0:00:50And what women are now saying about it?
0:00:50 > 0:00:53I had gone for a late brunch with a friend and on my tube journey
0:00:53 > 0:00:57home I was on the Northern Line coming out at Tooting Broadway
0:00:57 > 0:01:02and as I came on to the escalator I stood and I noticed a man run
0:01:02 > 0:01:07really quickly - he was really keen to get on this escalator behind me.
0:01:07 > 0:01:10I was 18 when it happened.
0:01:10 > 0:01:14And it was just at a work party.
0:01:14 > 0:01:16I had been to a couple of work parties before
0:01:16 > 0:01:18and they were nothing out of ordinary.
0:01:18 > 0:01:20I was looking forward to it.
0:01:20 > 0:01:23Initially, it was really good.
0:01:23 > 0:01:27We got on very well.
0:01:27 > 0:01:31He had a really good sense of humour.
0:01:31 > 0:01:33He liked music.
0:01:33 > 0:01:37So we went out quite a bit.
0:01:37 > 0:01:40So later in the evening, I found myself alone with him.
0:01:40 > 0:01:43It hadn't been my intention at all to be alone with him.
0:01:43 > 0:01:46But with the high turn around of people at a party,
0:01:46 > 0:01:51it happened and it was then he put his hand on my back
0:01:51 > 0:01:59and forced me into the bathroom and that's where he continued.
0:01:59 > 0:02:04That is where he raped me.
0:02:04 > 0:02:07He stood as close as he could physically be to me.
0:02:07 > 0:02:12His entire body was almost pressed up against my back and I noticed
0:02:12 > 0:02:14something that I think is the back of a hand perhaps,
0:02:14 > 0:02:19pushed up against my bum.
0:02:19 > 0:02:24I think as we were, the longer we were together,
0:02:24 > 0:02:28the more comfortable he got with putting me down.
0:02:28 > 0:02:30He would call me an idiot.
0:02:30 > 0:02:33He would swear.
0:02:33 > 0:02:35He would tell me I was stupid.
0:02:35 > 0:02:41Tell me I was thick.
0:02:41 > 0:02:44And I stopped eating at the dinner table eventually,
0:02:44 > 0:02:50because he used to tell me I was a pig and I ate like a pig.
0:02:50 > 0:02:54It is a cross between emotions of feeling almost embarrassed
0:02:54 > 0:03:02and dirty, this feeling of, oh God, I can't believe
0:03:02 > 0:03:05this happened to me, that someone has seen me and
0:03:05 > 0:03:08seen me as a target and at the end you almost feel a little bit guilty,
0:03:08 > 0:03:11where you think, someone pressed their body against mine,
0:03:11 > 0:03:14the hand ran over my bum, but I wasn't raped and there is that
0:03:14 > 0:03:15guilt as well.
0:03:15 > 0:03:17So you almost don't know how to handle the emotion.
0:03:17 > 0:03:20What happens is it happens so slowly over a period
0:03:20 > 0:03:23of time that it just chip, chip, chips away at who
0:03:23 > 0:03:25you are as a person, until I looked in the mirror
0:03:25 > 0:03:27and I was just unrecognisable to myself.
0:03:27 > 0:03:31I just wasn't me.
0:03:31 > 0:03:33In a couple of months, then the police said there wasn't
0:03:33 > 0:03:37enough evidence to continue.
0:03:37 > 0:03:42In most cases it is a "he says, she says" situation.
0:03:42 > 0:03:46Upon hearing this, work just reinstated us back and I had to kick
0:03:46 > 0:03:51up a real fuss to make sure we didn't work together.
0:03:51 > 0:03:54When he came back on to his shift, a couple male members
0:03:54 > 0:03:57of staff came up to him, shook his hand, welcomed him back,
0:03:57 > 0:04:00said it was good to have him back.
0:04:00 > 0:04:04I don't want to have every day remembering a time when I was groped
0:04:04 > 0:04:07on the Tube by a man that I had never seen before and obviously
0:04:07 > 0:04:12don't find that sort of behaviour acceptable.
0:04:12 > 0:04:15I remember one day when I was in bed and I couldn't do anything,
0:04:15 > 0:04:18I just couldn't get up and my daughter came in,
0:04:18 > 0:04:21she was only five.
0:04:21 > 0:04:24She came in and she didn't say anything, she just climbed
0:04:24 > 0:04:27in the bed beside me and gave me a hug.
0:04:27 > 0:04:32And I think she must have known.
0:04:32 > 0:04:35There is so much that just changed after that.
0:04:35 > 0:04:38I lost a lot of friends, because they didn't know what to say
0:04:38 > 0:04:42to me, how to respond.
0:04:42 > 0:04:45A lot of my guy friends just didn't know what to do.
0:04:45 > 0:04:49You just wonder if you're ever going to find a sense of normality,
0:04:49 > 0:04:53just have a relationship again.
0:04:53 > 0:04:56It wasn't until it was highlighted to me that I looked back
0:04:56 > 0:04:59and thought, "Oh my God, all this time, all this time
0:04:59 > 0:05:03and I didn't even see it."
0:05:03 > 0:05:08I don't think much or enough is being done to handle this.
0:05:08 > 0:05:11Especially when over half your population
0:05:11 > 0:05:14in London are female, something needs to be done to make
0:05:14 > 0:05:18them feel safer, because I don't.
0:05:19 > 0:05:29Good evening.
0:05:30 > 0:05:35Tonight, we want to reflect on an age-old problem, sex, power, abuse
0:05:35 > 0:05:45and allegations.
0:05:47 > 0:05:49So tonight we want to reflect the new national conversation
0:05:49 > 0:05:50about an age-old problem.
0:05:50 > 0:05:53Sex, power and abuse and allegation - have the rules changed?
0:05:53 > 0:05:55Are we redefining what we're prepared to put up with?
0:05:55 > 0:05:58And how do we feel about calling people "guilty" in such
0:05:58 > 0:05:59a vocal, public way?
0:05:59 > 0:06:02We have a panel of speakers, and a lively audience of 12 men.
0:06:02 > 0:06:05Much to come then, but first Evan and your thoughts
0:06:05 > 0:06:06on the problem with men.
0:06:06 > 0:06:07"All men are rapists."
0:06:07 > 0:06:10It's an old trope, from a character in a feminist novel called
0:06:10 > 0:06:11The Women's Room.
0:06:11 > 0:06:13It's of course an absurd exaggeration if the word "rape"
0:06:13 > 0:06:15is to have its usual meaning.
0:06:15 > 0:06:16Not all men are rapists.
0:06:16 > 0:06:18However, a very large number do think about women,
0:06:18 > 0:06:20or men and sex a lot of the time.
0:06:20 > 0:06:22It's a powerful motivator and although it is sometimes
0:06:22 > 0:06:25unfashionable to invoke biology when it comes to explaining human
0:06:25 > 0:06:27action, there is something rather animal about how men often behave.
0:06:27 > 0:06:30In fact, it's because it is so animal we have social codes
0:06:30 > 0:06:31to restrain that behaviour.
0:06:31 > 0:06:34Perhaps the reason why the Weinstein scandal has been so potent
0:06:34 > 0:06:37is that it is where the basest of instincts meet the most
0:06:37 > 0:06:39sophisticated of human creations - law and culture.
0:06:39 > 0:06:42There are flashing images coming up in this film.
0:06:42 > 0:06:47It is far too simplistic to say male mammals are more regressive and have
0:06:47 > 0:06:53their way with women when they like. Nature delivers a variety of mating
0:06:53 > 0:06:57strategies. But it is true that with many animals males gained
0:06:57 > 0:07:01evolutionary benefits from fighting with each other or coercing females
0:07:01 > 0:07:06into mating. That is less true of females. There are even some species
0:07:06 > 0:07:10where some females mimic males to avoid continual harassment. It also
0:07:10 > 0:07:16has to be said that in most mammals, including us, males have higher
0:07:16 > 0:07:20testosterone levels the females, and this may incline them to be more
0:07:20 > 0:07:25aggressive. Don't worry, I'm not going to use any of this to a rate
0:07:25 > 0:07:29men or argue they cannot help themselves, it is just nature. That
0:07:29 > 0:07:35is not my point, not even close. The key insight is a lot has been said
0:07:35 > 0:07:38about how men exploit their power in order to serve their craving for sex
0:07:38 > 0:07:43and women. But you could argue it is the other way round. They crave
0:07:43 > 0:07:48power because it makes it easier to exploit women get sex. That is the
0:07:48 > 0:07:54animal side of the problem, strong urges, dominant men. How do humans
0:07:54 > 0:07:58deal with this? There are societies where men are barely restrained at
0:07:58 > 0:08:04all. The tiny British colony of Pitcairn seemed to be like this, a
0:08:04 > 0:08:10population measured in tens. In the early 2000s it hit a crisis.
0:08:10 > 0:08:13According to court testimony, rape was a way of life. Half the adult
0:08:13 > 0:08:22men faced charges of sexual offences. But that is the exception.
0:08:22 > 0:08:26Most societies develop a code of social behaviour. In the Tory in
0:08:26 > 0:08:33Britain it is about dressing females in ways which would excite less
0:08:33 > 0:08:41animal passion from humans. Covering up the ankles, for example. And then
0:08:41 > 0:08:46women get the blame when men are aroused. But the other problem is
0:08:46 > 0:08:53men face penalty for non-restraint and that is clearly where Western
0:08:53 > 0:08:56societies are striving supposedly striving today. Our current system
0:08:56 > 0:09:00is not working well because to punish sexually aggressive men you
0:09:00 > 0:09:04have to catch them, and we don't, because victims have very good
0:09:04 > 0:09:07reasons not to report them. You might say what is happening at the
0:09:07 > 0:09:13moment is a recalibration of our social rules into. Firstly, around
0:09:13 > 0:09:17what is considered socially acceptable behaviour, and secondly,
0:09:17 > 0:09:23in reducing the stigma for those who call it out. Tonight, we have had a
0:09:23 > 0:09:27Cabinet resignation, the most tangible sign yet which shows how
0:09:27 > 0:09:30things are changing post Weinstein. When Michael Fallon resigned, he
0:09:30 > 0:09:36said what might have been acceptable ten or 15 years ago is clearly not
0:09:36 > 0:09:40acceptable now. New responsibilities are being imposed, men have to live
0:09:40 > 0:09:45up to the standards as site now expects.
0:09:45 > 0:09:48Apologies for reducing a rich seam of evolutionary biology to that
0:09:48 > 0:09:50two minute treatment, but it may just offer a guide
0:09:50 > 0:09:52as to what we're up against.
0:09:52 > 0:09:55Another sign of how deep it runs, I had an e-mail earlier today
0:09:55 > 0:09:57from someone I know well, who described an astonishing piece
0:09:57 > 0:09:59of inappropriate behaviour that occurred this morning.
0:09:59 > 0:10:02Quite surprising that predators have not taken a pause during this season
0:10:02 > 0:10:05of news frenzy on the topic.
0:10:05 > 0:10:07I should say of course, that we tend to talk of this
0:10:07 > 0:10:09as a man, woman issue.
0:10:09 > 0:10:11But it's been conspicuous in the last month just how much
0:10:11 > 0:10:13chatter there is about men harassing other men.
0:10:13 > 0:10:16It's different to harassment of women, but similar.
0:10:16 > 0:10:22But, for this evening, we'll focus on male/female issues.
0:10:22 > 0:10:25So does everyone know what sexual abuse looks like?
0:10:25 > 0:10:26Once we thought we did.
0:10:26 > 0:10:28Now it's not so clear.
0:10:28 > 0:10:30The boundaries have definitely shifted.
0:10:30 > 0:10:32And men are having to learn what they look like.
0:10:32 > 0:10:35So are men now changing their behaviour?
0:10:35 > 0:10:37And is it making all our work relationships really awkward?
0:10:37 > 0:10:41Let's ask our men.
0:10:41 > 0:10:46I would like to ask you first if you think you have changed your
0:10:46 > 0:10:50behaviour in recent weeks since some of these allegations came out? Who
0:10:50 > 0:10:54would say they have changed their behaviour? Terence, what have you
0:10:54 > 0:10:58noticed?I have noticed that you have to change your behaviour with
0:10:58 > 0:11:01women the way you touch them or put your arm around them or the way you
0:11:01 > 0:11:06look at them, to be honest. Years ago used to be had to laugh with
0:11:06 > 0:11:13women, joke with them but now...And you do not laugh with women any
0:11:13 > 0:11:16more?You do that you use to put your arms around them and you cannot
0:11:16 > 0:11:22do that no more.Do you agree?I don't understand why it is
0:11:22 > 0:11:26appropriate to Dutch study when you're having a laugh and joke with
0:11:26 > 0:11:30someone. Physical bodily contact when it is uninitiated is wrong and
0:11:30 > 0:11:35it has always been wrong.When you say it is wrong, do you ask
0:11:35 > 0:11:40permission to put your hand on somebody's shoulder or touch their
0:11:40 > 0:11:45elbow?There is no reason to touch you. What does it add?Does anyone
0:11:45 > 0:11:58still like that?I think it is time for a complete rethink by men and
0:11:58 > 0:12:00women. I'll give you an example. Just last Sunday I was at church.
0:12:00 > 0:12:03And now, where normally I am a fairly lovable easy-going character,
0:12:03 > 0:12:07now I wait for women to come to me, and they invariably want to kiss me
0:12:07 > 0:12:13on the cheek and give me a hug, it is a friendly thing.So you will not
0:12:13 > 0:12:18make the first approach now?No.Who is worried to make the first tactile
0:12:18 > 0:12:23of physical approach to women. You are the only one. John, you're
0:12:23 > 0:12:28looking at me.This thing of PC has gone to such an extreme nowadays.
0:12:28 > 0:12:35What do you mean by that?What is correct, what is the margin, what is
0:12:35 > 0:12:39the boundary. I am not entirely convinced that I am ever going to
0:12:39 > 0:12:45change being friendly to somebody and if I know that person well
0:12:45 > 0:12:48enough, that I'm quite happy to give them a cuddle, hug, whatever the
0:12:48 > 0:12:53word is.A lot of the younger men are quite silent in this point. I'm
0:12:53 > 0:13:00going to bring you in. Do you find it confusing? Is it a grey area or
0:13:00 > 0:13:03is it obvious?I think most of the time it is fairly obvious. Sometimes
0:13:03 > 0:13:08I have stepped into the grey area and when I have seen someone is
0:13:08 > 0:13:13uncomfortable I have apologised and said, I should not have done that
0:13:13 > 0:13:15and you gain an understanding. When he said there is no reason to touch
0:13:15 > 0:13:19someone if you aren't invited to, I suppose a lot of people you are used
0:13:19 > 0:13:26to thinking, physical contact is natural and whatnot.When we say if
0:13:26 > 0:13:32there is no invitation, you don't have any reason to touch someone,
0:13:32 > 0:13:34for example, if someone drops something and I have to call them
0:13:34 > 0:13:39out and they couldn't hear me, soap if I touch them, am I committing
0:13:39 > 0:13:46sexual harassment? Come on.Have we lost our sense of common sense in
0:13:46 > 0:13:53all of this?Completely.To the very jagged line.Tom, what was your
0:13:53 > 0:13:57sense?I feel it is so it's second nature. I'm 21. I have grown up
0:13:57 > 0:14:02where it is so obvious to me, I struggle to see a lot of the other
0:14:02 > 0:14:06opinions about how... The whole idea of just being friendly with someone
0:14:06 > 0:14:11and feeling the need to touch them, for me, that is not the case. I
0:14:11 > 0:14:16don't need to do that. I just have a conversation.So you never touch
0:14:16 > 0:14:20your friends? You never feel the need to reach out and touch your
0:14:20 > 0:14:31friends? It is fine if it is a no. In some contexts I suppose.
0:14:31 > 0:14:37Your do touch your friends.You're saying what Tom said is alien?What
0:14:37 > 0:14:42are they afraid of.I was going to say, whether or not you touch a
0:14:42 > 0:14:48friend, be it a male or female friend depends on the context,
0:14:48 > 0:14:52whether you have done before, whether they have touched you. If
0:14:52 > 0:14:57you just want to give them a hug or kiss or touch them for the first
0:14:57 > 0:15:02time, maybe you turn them on the arm.
0:15:02 > 0:15:05Evan, you have some data on this.
0:15:05 > 0:15:07Now, social attitudes as to the boundaries
0:15:07 > 0:15:09matter on these issues and we have polling evidence
0:15:09 > 0:15:12of what attitudes are at the moment.
0:15:12 > 0:15:17A YouGov Eurotrack survey taken in the last two weeks asked people
0:15:17 > 0:15:21about some specific behaviours and whether they always or usually
0:15:21 > 0:15:24constitute sexual harassment, if a man who was not a romantic
0:15:24 > 0:15:30partner or friend, did them to a woman.
0:15:30 > 0:15:34There are some things that almost everybody agrees
0:15:34 > 0:15:37are harassment - trying to take a photograph up a woman's
0:15:37 > 0:15:41skirt, 96%.
0:15:41 > 0:15:46Requesting sexual favours - 92% say that's harassment.
0:15:46 > 0:15:53Pinching or grabbing a woman's bum - that's 91%.
0:15:53 > 0:15:56At the other end, there are several things that are widely seen not
0:15:56 > 0:15:58to be sexual harassment.
0:15:58 > 0:15:59Commenting on a woman's attractiveness -
0:15:59 > 0:16:03just 16% thought that was always or usually harassment.
0:16:03 > 0:16:08Winking at a woman - 13%.
0:16:08 > 0:16:15Asking for a drink - just 3% thought that harassment.
0:16:15 > 0:16:18But in some ways the most interesting areas are those
0:16:18 > 0:16:20where the public have no dominant view.
0:16:20 > 0:16:23The middle ones.
0:16:23 > 0:16:28Looking at a woman's breasts - 50% think that is harassment.
0:16:28 > 0:16:33Wolf whistling - 38%.
0:16:33 > 0:16:35And a man placing his hand on a woman's lower back - 37%
0:16:35 > 0:16:40think that is harassment.
0:16:40 > 0:16:50In the poll - there do seem to be some grey zones.
0:16:55 > 0:17:00Who thinks looking at a woman's breast is harassment. You're the
0:17:00 > 0:17:05only one shaking your head.It depends on the context.We are not
0:17:05 > 0:17:10talk about in bed with your partner. If you're in a lift and there is two
0:17:10 > 0:17:17of you there and you stare at her breasts that is harassment. If
0:17:17 > 0:17:24you're on a dance floor it is different.It depends on how women
0:17:24 > 0:17:30present themselves to men. Here we are in 2017, men and women have
0:17:30 > 0:17:34seriously got to rethink all over again...Who agrees with that and
0:17:34 > 0:17:43thinks it up to woman to relook at how they think.No.You think it is
0:17:43 > 0:17:52about women? Go on tell me what you think.Just exactly what he said to
0:17:52 > 0:17:58be honest.You're breathing very heavily. I'm going to bring you in.
0:17:58 > 0:18:05I can't believe we're victim-blaming, we don't train our
0:18:05 > 0:18:10boys to dress appropriately. We train our boys not to rape them.It
0:18:10 > 0:18:15is no about harassment, it is more about respect, I think respect comes
0:18:15 > 0:18:20into this a lot. Staring at a woman's parts when you're talking to
0:18:20 > 0:18:27her is, because you wouldn't... A man couldn't talk to another man and
0:18:27 > 0:18:33look at an inappropriate part of his body.What about wolf whistling or
0:18:33 > 0:18:38the hand on the back.To disrespect somebody is harassment. You're not
0:18:38 > 0:18:48saying it is not harassment. But it is not the same stuff.I didn't say
0:18:48 > 0:18:53it is not disrespect.You're doing it in a way that makes you feel
0:18:53 > 0:19:00better. It is the same masculine strap.By not respecting a woman
0:19:00 > 0:19:05doesn't make it any better or more acceptable. If somebody disrespects
0:19:05 > 0:19:10you, does it make it acceptable. You respect a woman in the first place
0:19:10 > 0:19:15you wouldn't need to look at her down there.Who about confusion with
0:19:15 > 0:19:20a action who, has put a hand on a woman's back without thinking about
0:19:20 > 0:19:25it. Would you now think about that in a different light when you have
0:19:25 > 0:19:31seen the data.Yes definitely.You wouldn't do that and John you say...
0:19:31 > 0:19:37I would continue as I've always done in the context of depending on how
0:19:37 > 0:19:43friendly you are with the person and I'm not talking about the Queen you
0:19:43 > 0:19:48know?We will pause at that moment. I think the panel has a lot to say.
0:19:48 > 0:19:51We will be back.
0:19:51 > 0:19:54Let me introduce our panel here - experts and commentators who have
0:19:54 > 0:19:56been thinking harder about this than most of us.
0:19:56 > 0:19:59Laura Bates, the founder of the Everyday Sexism Project,
0:19:59 > 0:20:01Shelagh Fogarty LBC presenter, musician Jordan Stephens one half
0:20:01 > 0:20:04of the band Rizzle Kicks, writer and commentator Neil Lyndon
0:20:04 > 0:20:12the author of No More Sex War and journalist Eliza Anyangwe.
0:20:12 > 0:20:16It was interesting what Michael Fallon said when he resigned, he
0:20:16 > 0:20:19said what was acceptable 15 or 10 years ago is no longer acceptable
0:20:19 > 0:20:28now. That implication is the rules have changed. Eliza you were shaking
0:20:28 > 0:20:32your head, they were always the same?What has changed is what
0:20:32 > 0:20:39people can get a pat on the back for having done, can get promotions, I
0:20:39 > 0:20:43think we have framed the discussion inaccurately. This is about power
0:20:43 > 0:20:49and the way people use power. Whether or not a male friend touches
0:20:49 > 0:20:56me on my shoulder is inconsequential a and to make men feel they have to
0:20:56 > 0:21:03walk around women and our xer excising of speaking up about
0:21:03 > 0:21:06victimhood is something Joe public needs to be fearful of women for.
0:21:06 > 0:21:12That is not what the conversation is about. When we look at Weinstein, he
0:21:12 > 0:21:17has abused his power and has preyed on vulnerable women and that is
0:21:17 > 0:21:23wrong.Laura, the conversation has gone beyond Weinstein to quite a lot
0:21:23 > 0:21:29of these every day interactions, every day sexism, that is not rape
0:21:29 > 0:21:33and it often is touching of knees and things, it is quite different.I
0:21:33 > 0:21:38think it is important to say that actually the very serious abuses,
0:21:38 > 0:21:42very serious assault, rape are every day. That is the important thing. We
0:21:42 > 0:21:47have seen this out pouring of accusations of women's experience,
0:21:47 > 0:21:54why are we asking if it is OK to touch a woman on the elbow. 12
0:21:54 > 0:21:57million women around the world have spoken out about their experiences
0:21:57 > 0:22:02and I guarantee you go and have a look at them, you won't find one
0:22:02 > 0:22:06saying is I'm outraged someone touched me on the elbow. This is
0:22:06 > 0:22:12reframing the conversation. We are talking about serious abuses.Am I
0:22:12 > 0:22:17confused, I think the conversation has got to more of the obviously not
0:22:17 > 0:22:21touching an elbow accidentally, the conversation has got to interactions
0:22:21 > 0:22:26that are much less serious than Harvey Weinstein's one. The extreme
0:22:26 > 0:22:34ones have opened up a conversation about the whole spectrum. IetYou're
0:22:34 > 0:22:39right is is about power and serious things are every day things. But I
0:22:39 > 0:22:42think you're opening film was interesting, the woman talking about
0:22:42 > 0:22:48the assault on the tube and the man groping her backside, that is the
0:22:48 > 0:22:52kind of every day approach by a total stranger, this was not a party
0:22:52 > 0:22:57where a colleague was drunk and inappropriate and you could tackle
0:22:57 > 0:23:02it, that has happened to me and he said sorry and that was fine. But
0:23:02 > 0:23:06that, what struck me as interesting, why I don't think it is just about
0:23:06 > 0:23:10male power and just about male behaviour, I think women have to
0:23:10 > 0:23:15have a discussion in their own minds and with each other about what they
0:23:15 > 0:23:20do when it happens. It is alien to me the idea I would be on a tube and
0:23:20 > 0:23:24a stranger would feel me up and I would do nothing. I would react.We
0:23:24 > 0:23:28are going to come to that calling out subject in the second half of
0:23:28 > 0:23:33the programme. Neil, back to my first question, have the rules
0:23:33 > 0:23:36changed, because really I think a lot of people say the rules have
0:23:36 > 0:23:40always been as clear as anything. You know what you can do and can't
0:23:40 > 0:23:45do?The rules remain the same, they have always been the same. But
0:23:45 > 0:23:52everything has changed. Everything changed at the point of the
0:23:52 > 0:23:58contraceptive revolution. And that caused the social changes which have
0:23:58 > 0:24:03brought a flood of women into the work place, into higher edge case at
0:24:03 > 0:24:08all levels of -- education at all levels of society. That is the key.
0:24:08 > 0:24:13If you set this conversation in evolutionary terms, you have to look
0:24:13 > 0:24:17at that essential point of change. What is remarkable about the changes
0:24:17 > 0:24:23that have occurred in the last 50 years is how harmoniously they have
0:24:23 > 0:24:29been conducted and our misfortune in the last 50 years is it has been
0:24:29 > 0:24:38framed in terms of a totalitarianism of the 19th century as if men impose
0:24:38 > 0:24:41their power on women and that is the only interpretation of our
0:24:41 > 0:24:51relationships.You're point is men have acquiesced.They have
0:24:51 > 0:25:00consented.There is patriarchy, as a black woman in children there is
0:25:00 > 0:25:05that and racism and issues that, where power is exercised over women.
0:25:05 > 0:25:10Jordan?I like for me, I just don't understand why we are in a situation
0:25:10 > 0:25:16where we are not questioning why men even questioning how to treat
0:25:16 > 0:25:24another human being with any kind of respect and decency. It is a lack of
0:25:24 > 0:25:28come passion that is found from having, it is bizarre to question
0:25:28 > 0:25:35how to interact with another human being.What do you think causes it?
0:25:35 > 0:25:48You have talked of toxic masculinity.I think the patriarchy
0:25:48 > 0:25:56that is a way of... Of showing weakness and sadness gets pent up
0:25:56 > 0:26:06which abuse power and the patriarchy makes ways of object if s object
0:26:06 > 0:26:12Faying women.You raised the issue of calling out. We will turn to that
0:26:12 > 0:26:15now.
0:26:15 > 0:26:17Many victims have shared their experiences on social media.
0:26:17 > 0:26:20Many men have now been named and shamed on those same sites.
0:26:20 > 0:26:22So are we happy with this public court of justice -
0:26:22 > 0:26:24is that where the power now lies?
0:26:24 > 0:26:26We'll talk about calling out the perpetrators in a moment.
0:26:26 > 0:26:28Where it works and where it goes wrong.
0:26:28 > 0:26:32First, have a watch.
0:26:32 > 0:26:44Hi.Hello.Let's get you sat down. OK.I have got over here ready.
0:26:44 > 0:26:47Navigating the work place is challenging for some.Tell me about
0:26:47 > 0:26:54yourself.I took a year out and went exploring.Exploring yourself?And
0:26:54 > 0:27:01Asia.And let's face it, David Brent wouldn't have been such a hit if he
0:27:01 > 0:27:09hadn't been a familiar prototype of those we have known. But if the
0:27:09 > 0:27:14etiquette of real life behaviour is becoming clearer there are virtual
0:27:14 > 0:27:18spaces that have no rules. We are making that stuff up as we go along.
0:27:18 > 0:27:22Sharing sites have been extraordinarily powerful in bringing
0:27:22 > 0:27:26together those who suffered humiliation or worse in a form where
0:27:26 > 0:27:34they can find support. Did Rose McGowan have an idea what she
0:27:34 > 0:27:40unleashing, naming Harvey Weinstein. I have been silent for 20 years. I
0:27:40 > 0:27:50have been slut-shamed.Others offered their experiences in a
0:27:50 > 0:27:54tweet. One talked of a sexual assault and inspired half a million
0:27:54 > 0:28:02hits in just 24 hours. Some used the slogan to share their own, others to
0:28:02 > 0:28:09show solidarity. The calling out of abuse is long over due, but it is
0:28:09 > 0:28:14opening up a grey area. One person's catharsis becomes another's
0:28:14 > 0:28:19witch-hunt. Those speaking out expect to be believed, so are all
0:28:19 > 0:28:23those publicly named guilty? Are we asking Twitter to become judge and
0:28:23 > 0:28:31jury. And what of what's app and the groups sharing perpetrator's names
0:28:31 > 0:28:37with no ramification. Don't forget David Brent is called out.I would
0:28:37 > 0:28:44say at one time or another every bloke in the office has woken up at
0:28:44 > 0:28:49the crack of dawn.WhatDawn might tell her friends in the pub, but
0:28:49 > 0:28:55would she call a national newspaper? That is what Twitter has the pow to
0:28:55 > 0:29:02do now. Are we happy with that?
0:29:02 > 0:29:04OK, well this gets straight into a debate about this
0:29:04 > 0:29:06issue of reporting.
0:29:06 > 0:29:08On the one hand, calling out has clearly become a feature
0:29:08 > 0:29:09of the last two weeks.
0:29:09 > 0:29:12But it's also interesting there is still a reticence
0:29:12 > 0:29:14on the part of many victims, to name the perpetrators.
0:29:14 > 0:29:20Let's talk to the panel.
0:29:20 > 0:29:25Shelagh, you brought this up, is it still difficult to have this
0:29:25 > 0:29:29conversation?I found it was difficult for me to have this
0:29:29 > 0:29:33conversation on air with Naomi Wolf the feminist author. I was so
0:29:33 > 0:29:37excited to be interviewing her and when I talked about what women need
0:29:37 > 0:29:41to do in response in both individual cases and the wider discussion we
0:29:41 > 0:29:46need to have, straightaway she very anxiously said, you are victim
0:29:46 > 0:29:50blaming and this is bothering me so our conversation went in a different
0:29:50 > 0:29:54direction. The conversation I was aiming to have and really feel
0:29:54 > 0:29:58passionate about is, women need as individuals and as groups and in the
0:29:58 > 0:30:02workplace, need to be able to know what to do, who took all, what to
0:30:02 > 0:30:13say, to be safe when
0:30:14 > 0:30:16they do so, to have a proper structure when it happens, but it
0:30:16 > 0:30:19has to begin inside them. It really pains me when I hear women saying I
0:30:19 > 0:30:22feel shame when this happened to me. I have never felt personal shame
0:30:22 > 0:30:26when someone has crossed the line with me. I have made them know they
0:30:26 > 0:30:30have done something wrong. That is not to say aren't I great? That
0:30:30 > 0:30:33something I have in my upbringing and allows me to feel it is
0:30:33 > 0:30:38absolutely their shame and they should be named, I should not be
0:30:38 > 0:30:41shamed and its structures around that confident that has to be built
0:30:41 > 0:30:45around I think.Laura, you were shaking your head a little bit
0:30:45 > 0:30:49there.I think we are looking at this completely the wrong way. It is
0:30:49 > 0:30:55not about health under the response or what to do in response it is
0:30:55 > 0:31:00about stopping it happening in the first place.It has to be both. For
0:31:00 > 0:31:03Ayr no, it doesn't. We do not matter how we will respond in that
0:31:03 > 0:31:07situation. They are talking about a power differential.It might be
0:31:07 > 0:31:10somebody at the beginning of their career. We might think I will do
0:31:10 > 0:31:16this or that but then wish at down in panic. When we talk about this in
0:31:16 > 0:31:21a particular way and women do not feel able to do so, they feel they
0:31:21 > 0:31:26do something wrong.I do not mean to make people feel they have done
0:31:26 > 0:31:31something wrong. It pains me that when I say that if it is interpreted
0:31:31 > 0:31:35as me shaming blaming women or shifting the focus from men, it
0:31:35 > 0:31:39isn't. It is about saying if the culture is going to respond to this,
0:31:39 > 0:31:44everyone in that culture has to have a voice.It seems that the naming of
0:31:44 > 0:31:48the perpetrators is stopping them from doing it. Neil, what do you
0:31:48 > 0:31:53think about how we stop this or how we make it easier to call it out and
0:31:53 > 0:31:59catch people who are doing the wrong thing?It does seem that the
0:31:59 > 0:32:04Weinstein scandal and subsequent revelations tend to reveal a rather
0:32:04 > 0:32:09dramatic failure of parenting going on. I think parents need to tell
0:32:09 > 0:32:15their girls, their daughters, like one of the Weinstein occasions, he
0:32:15 > 0:32:19was banging on an actress's door in the middle of the night, he was
0:32:19 > 0:32:27drunk. I think she should know that you don't let a man in. Siam
0:32:32 > 0:32:42no! I don't think you can navigate life from cradle to grave without
0:32:42 > 0:32:46experiencing a road traffic accident or encountering a serious illness
0:32:46 > 0:32:53and you cannot avoid unpleasant sexual experience.No! It is
0:32:53 > 0:32:57absolutely ridiculous that you have chosen the parenting issue of the
0:32:57 > 0:33:01girl inside the room who is vulnerable. The idea is there is an
0:33:01 > 0:33:04abuse of power from a man who has got to that stage. There is an issue
0:33:04 > 0:33:12with men. The reason why this is a crisis is because the patriarch he
0:33:12 > 0:33:17does not allow...Does not the patriarch Lee.For a man to turn up
0:33:17 > 0:33:26at a woman's door...Don't let me call security.This goes back to the
0:33:26 > 0:33:29idea of biology.Just because you raise your voice does not mean you
0:33:29 > 0:33:37are right.Analyser.The point that you are making is put the
0:33:37 > 0:33:41responsibility of the girl to use her voice, that is what you are
0:33:41 > 0:33:45saying, right? What you are asking for is you negate the structural
0:33:45 > 0:33:49reasons why a girl would be silenced. Even if she wants to, gold
0:33:49 > 0:33:57does not want to use her voice and her own community will silence her.
0:33:57 > 0:34:00Don't all speak together.That is why I said it is not just the
0:34:00 > 0:34:05person, it has to be procedural and structural so there is support when
0:34:05 > 0:34:11someone speaks out. It is to protect us when it happens.And I am
0:34:11 > 0:34:15explaining why it comes across wrong. When you say the individual
0:34:15 > 0:34:20is all you hear that responsibility lies with that one person. The woman
0:34:20 > 0:34:23who accused Dominique Strauss Kahn, where was the community around her?
0:34:23 > 0:34:32I want to hear Jordan's view on this.I think, I cannot stray from
0:34:32 > 0:34:36the idea that it is a serious lack of compassion and personal
0:34:36 > 0:34:39understanding, it is mad to me that we are questioning why someone would
0:34:39 > 0:34:45think it was okayed to step into someone's personal space and that is
0:34:45 > 0:34:55something that happens.Does not okayed. It is not okayed.I have got
0:34:55 > 0:34:59to speak about this biology idea, it is not about biology, it is not
0:34:59 > 0:35:03about sex, it is not something that all men cannot control. How
0:35:03 > 0:35:08insulting to the vast majority of men. This is deliberate, it is often
0:35:08 > 0:35:13criminal, it is meant choosing to assault and harass women. We should
0:35:13 > 0:35:20focus on them and not suggest it is an inherent biological trait.We
0:35:20 > 0:35:28will take this back to the audience now.
0:35:28 > 0:35:36Question about calling people out, it often happens social media. Do
0:35:36 > 0:35:43you think it is a force for good or a force for bad?In my opinion, what
0:35:43 > 0:35:47social media does is it is showing us transparency. It is showing that
0:35:47 > 0:35:51this is happening. It is unpleasant but it is exposing a system which
0:35:51 > 0:35:54has always been there. It does mean we are confronted with more things
0:35:54 > 0:35:59that we think, this is messed up, it is horrible, how did we let this
0:35:59 > 0:36:05happen?As I said this previously, time for a rethink. Not being one to
0:36:05 > 0:36:12Bible bash, do unto others as you would have them do unto you.It is
0:36:12 > 0:36:16dangerous with the social media because as we have seen over recent
0:36:16 > 0:36:19years, that has been a number of innocent men who have gone through
0:36:19 > 0:36:26hell because their names have been released by vindictive females.
0:36:26 > 0:36:30How'd you know they are vindictive? There is one case in particular
0:36:30 > 0:36:34which comes to light, one woman in particular had seven or eight men
0:36:34 > 0:36:38sent to prison. She had accused each one of raping her before she was
0:36:38 > 0:36:44found to be a compulsive liar. One man had done eight years.You are
0:36:44 > 0:36:49talking about a very specific case. Do people feel that social media,
0:36:49 > 0:36:54Facebook, Twitter, WhatsApp is acting like a public court?The
0:36:54 > 0:36:57problem with social media is you advocate responsibility. You make a
0:36:57 > 0:37:02tweet or write something and that is done. You can create an anonymous
0:37:02 > 0:37:07profile, people follow you.So what should women do? Women have been
0:37:07 > 0:37:10having these grievances, they have sat on them, then they come out and
0:37:10 > 0:37:14write about them on social media or different sites, what should happen
0:37:14 > 0:37:20then?If it is crime which has been committed, because there are plenty
0:37:20 > 0:37:24of legislation in place to protect women, if some feels that they have
0:37:24 > 0:37:27been harassed, they have been treated inappropriately or attacked
0:37:27 > 0:37:31or whatever, there is illegal because for them to call the police
0:37:31 > 0:37:36and get them involved. 30 years ago, it was custom and practice for a man
0:37:36 > 0:37:41to knock his wife about. Domestic violence was done to the carpet.But
0:37:41 > 0:37:45that has not been changed by calling the police, it has been changed by
0:37:45 > 0:37:51public opinion saying it will not be tolerated.The law changed.I think
0:37:51 > 0:37:58one way could be solved is looking for the nondisclosure argument. If
0:37:58 > 0:38:06there is a sexual violence case more than once, the nondisclosure case
0:38:06 > 0:38:10should not be upheld.Let me bring this back to this evening where we
0:38:10 > 0:38:14started the show with the resignation of one Cabinet minister,
0:38:14 > 0:38:17for something, he did not explain what, but something which happened
0:38:17 > 0:38:21in the past. Is it right that men should now be resigning for actions
0:38:21 > 0:38:28which happened in the past, he says in a different culture?Yes.The
0:38:28 > 0:38:34panel all agrees.They should face the consequences.And if we see a
0:38:34 > 0:38:38raft of resignations right across the board, that is a good thing?
0:38:38 > 0:38:45Yes.Women need to take appropriate action, if they feel they have been
0:38:45 > 0:38:52harassed or offended.Why are you always putting the onus on women? We
0:38:52 > 0:38:55should be educating men about what is acceptable and what is not. I
0:38:55 > 0:39:00went to an all boys school. We were not properly told what we should and
0:39:00 > 0:39:06should not be doing.I don't disagree with you.We as a group of
0:39:06 > 0:39:11men are trying to define what women are feeling. We cannot do that. We
0:39:11 > 0:39:16cannot talk for women. It is utterly impossible. Why are we trying to say
0:39:16 > 0:39:23what is harassment? Why are we not asking victims of rape and
0:39:23 > 0:39:27harassment?Have women got to be more resilient with how they deal
0:39:27 > 0:39:31with cases of sexual harassment or would you say now, it is all to do
0:39:31 > 0:39:39with our behaviour as men? You would say your behaviour.In the majority
0:39:39 > 0:39:43of cases where the man is known to the woman, such as a family member,
0:39:43 > 0:39:49friend, work colleague or something, a simple no is usually enough.
0:39:49 > 0:39:58Defending on the offence -- depending on the offence.I do know
0:39:58 > 0:40:02what you're saying but I do think that it absolutely has to begin with
0:40:02 > 0:40:06the offending behaviour of the man. When I talk about empowering a
0:40:06 > 0:40:10woman, if you want to call it that, that is an add-on to this discussion
0:40:10 > 0:40:15but it is central to it. You are right, no man can speak for women
0:40:15 > 0:40:20generally but no woman can speak for women generally. Every person should
0:40:20 > 0:40:23be allowed to say what happened to them and how they stopped and the
0:40:23 > 0:40:27thing I am passionate about achieving is that they have a
0:40:27 > 0:40:33structure and support which works for them.Back to the idea of social
0:40:33 > 0:40:36media, there is a great transparency in the way victims are feeling, we
0:40:36 > 0:40:42would not be having this discussion if it had not been for things which
0:40:42 > 0:40:46have come through Twitter.So a last thought, do you think this is now
0:40:46 > 0:40:51something which has changed irrevocably or will this hit a peak
0:40:51 > 0:40:56and quietly fade away? Who think something has fundamentally changed
0:40:56 > 0:41:00in the waters now?I just want to say from a male perspective, the
0:41:00 > 0:41:04male suicide rate is through the roof and ADHD is more current in
0:41:04 > 0:41:11men. We are suppressing our motion, we are not creating forces in the
0:41:11 > 0:41:15male community to be open and honest and caring and nurturing with each
0:41:15 > 0:41:19other, or, because we have a society which mocks men for being weak and
0:41:19 > 0:41:24vulnerable and that needs to change. Do you know what, we need to leave
0:41:24 > 0:41:28it there. We have devoted this one programme to this topic but I have a
0:41:28 > 0:41:41feeling we will do it everyday for the next of months. There is
0:41:41 > 0:41:44agreement between the sexes and plenty of battles between the sexes
0:41:44 > 0:41:52as well.
0:41:52 > 0:41:56Thank you to our panel of commentators. Kirsty will be here
0:41:56 > 0:42:00tomorrow. Thank you for watching. Good night.
0:42:01 > 0:42:01Good night.