0:00:04 > 0:00:07Harassment becomes a full-blown crisis in politics: Three
0:00:07 > 0:00:13new accusations today, affecting MPs in both main parties.
0:00:14 > 0:00:17Tory Dover MP Charlie Elphicke has the whip suspended,
0:00:17 > 0:00:20and the Conservative Party says he has been referred to the police.
0:00:20 > 0:00:22He denies wrongdoing and says he doesn't even know
0:00:22 > 0:00:26what the accusation is.
0:00:26 > 0:00:29And in Labour, Ivan Lewis and Clive Lewis are both accused
0:00:29 > 0:00:30of inappropriate behaviour.
0:00:30 > 0:00:31Both deny it.
0:00:31 > 0:00:34I don't, as a rule, at packed Labour Party Conferences,
0:00:34 > 0:00:40grope people's bottoms.
0:00:40 > 0:00:42What will the effect on our politics and the main parties be,
0:00:42 > 0:00:46as allegations accumulate?
0:00:46 > 0:00:49Can you judge a regime by the way it treats its infants?
0:00:49 > 0:00:51We hear the shocking testimony of children liberated
0:00:51 > 0:00:53from so-called Islamic State.
0:01:10 > 0:01:20And also tonight: Given what we've heard about Kevin Spacey,
0:01:20 > 0:01:29Rouen should we still be watching House Of Cards? -- should we still
0:01:29 > 0:01:34be watching House Of Cards?
0:01:34 > 0:01:35Hello.
0:01:35 > 0:01:37It has been yet another extraordinary political day.
0:01:37 > 0:01:39It's so strange to see ideological debate between the parties
0:01:39 > 0:01:41replaced by talk of inappropriate, intimate touching.
0:01:41 > 0:01:44Like the expenses scandal, which saw new exposes day after day,
0:01:44 > 0:01:46this one is spinning out of the control of
0:01:46 > 0:01:48the party managers.
0:01:48 > 0:01:50Politics is struggling to find the words to cope with it.
0:01:50 > 0:01:52Take yesterday's story of Kelvin Hopkins -
0:01:52 > 0:01:55Jeremy Corbyn was asked about it this morning, but was unable
0:01:55 > 0:01:56to offer any comment.
0:01:56 > 0:01:58Were you aware of the allegations against Mr Hopkins, sir?
0:01:58 > 0:02:01Goodbye.
0:02:01 > 0:02:03But this evening, we've had new accusations against three MPs,
0:02:03 > 0:02:05coming out hour after hour.
0:02:05 > 0:02:07Two of them are former members of the Shadow Cabinet,
0:02:07 > 0:02:09and one well-known Conservative MP.
0:02:09 > 0:02:14Let's go through them with Chris Cook, who is with me.
0:02:14 > 0:02:22Let's start with Charlie Elphicke. This came out at around 9pm.The
0:02:22 > 0:02:30Tory Chief Whip Julian Smith issued statements saying they had suspended
0:02:30 > 0:02:43him from the party and issued passed it the police. Charlie Elphicke said
0:02:43 > 0:02:45he was not aware of what the accusations are and denied any
0:02:45 > 0:02:48wrongdoing.That was all quite late this evening and we don't know much
0:02:48 > 0:02:54about it. Clive Lewis, he was pretty well-known and indeed got into some
0:02:54 > 0:03:00trouble for using the phrase get on your knees, bitch at a party
0:03:00 > 0:03:06Conference.A brief Labour Party statement saying the Labour Party is
0:03:06 > 0:03:12investigating a formal complaint made today against Clive Lewis,
0:03:12 > 0:03:16specifically that an activist said she felt he had touched her
0:03:16 > 0:03:22inappropriately while having a hug at the party Conference.Clive Lewis
0:03:22 > 0:03:28came out very quickly after that. He went on to the news channel and he
0:03:28 > 0:03:30didn't deny it. This is what he said.
0:03:30 > 0:03:32I don't, as a rule, at packed Labour Party Conferences,
0:03:32 > 0:03:36grope people's bottoms when I greet them.
0:03:36 > 0:03:40This, you know, it is just not how I roll, it's not what I do.
0:03:40 > 0:03:43Is the person mistaken?
0:03:43 > 0:03:48Have I kind of given them a hug and this has, you know,
0:03:48 > 0:03:49been misinterpreted?
0:03:49 > 0:03:51I don't know.
0:03:51 > 0:03:58But all I know is that I would not deliberately do that.
0:03:58 > 0:04:05And the third one today, Ivan Lewis, another Lewis but completely
0:04:05 > 0:04:10separate and a former Labour Shadow Cabinet member.There are two
0:04:10 > 0:04:16allegations. One is that he touched an activist's legs, and the other is
0:04:16 > 0:04:20about his conduct as a minister in the Department of Health. He has put
0:04:20 > 0:04:25out a statement denying specifically and firmly the first of those, and
0:04:25 > 0:04:30he put out a statement that sort of says that if there are problems at
0:04:30 > 0:04:33the Department of Health, no one else seemed to know about them. I
0:04:33 > 0:04:39have on occasion asked women I work for out for dinner and develop
0:04:39 > 0:04:44strong feelings for them and I am sorry if this was inappropriate in
0:04:44 > 0:04:50the circumstances.Yesterday, Kelvin Hopkins, another former Cabinet
0:04:50 > 0:04:56member, that case emerged. Today, late this afternoon, actually, he
0:04:56 > 0:05:02issued quite a firm and strong denial and quite a long piece about
0:05:02 > 0:05:10it.There was a statement yesterday about Mr Hopkins is saying
0:05:10 > 0:05:13inappropriate things and having inappropriately at an event in 2014.
0:05:13 > 0:05:16His statement is striking because it features a trope we have seen
0:05:16 > 0:05:23already in some of them coverage after Hartpury Weinstein. He said
0:05:23 > 0:05:27how cordial things were after the incident is supposed to have taken
0:05:27 > 0:05:40place. It -- after the Harvey Weinstein story.
0:05:45 > 0:05:48It is awkward and difficult because even after an incident you may still
0:05:48 > 0:05:53want to ingratiate yourself.
0:05:53 > 0:05:56Joining me now is Jasmin Beckett, Young Labour's representative
0:05:56 > 0:06:04on the Labour Party's National Executive Committee.
0:06:04 > 0:06:12Is the party geared up for dealing with the volume of allegations?
0:06:12 > 0:06:17Yeah, I mean, I think that we have a lot we need to improve. We recently
0:06:17 > 0:06:22passed a new sexual harassment policy which is a huge step forward
0:06:22 > 0:06:26for us, but it just doesn't go far enough. It doesn't introduce an
0:06:26 > 0:06:33independent body away from politics to deal with these complaints, so
0:06:33 > 0:06:37that's a huge reason why people haven't been coming forward, and
0:06:37 > 0:06:45that's something we need to look at again.You wrote in an e-mail to the
0:06:45 > 0:06:50NEC and Jeremy Corbyn saying there are still people who don't want to
0:06:50 > 0:06:54complain because they don't feel able to do so. He said these
0:06:54 > 0:07:01experiences are not rare.Yeah, I think we've all... There's a lot of
0:07:01 > 0:07:07rumours, and I've been in positions myself where I've been in NEC
0:07:07 > 0:07:10meetings and had inappropriate remarks made towards myself, and you
0:07:10 > 0:07:18know, I know that, as fantastic as they are, staff members dealing with
0:07:18 > 0:07:23these complaints, and then the NEC's disputes body, who will dispute over
0:07:23 > 0:07:26them, and it puts you off from making a complaint because, you
0:07:26 > 0:07:30know, these are people you know than they might know the person about
0:07:30 > 0:07:35whom you're making a complaint.Age is a factor. You represent Young
0:07:35 > 0:07:41labour. Pages is a factor in some of these cases was not in your view, if
0:07:41 > 0:07:52a 55-year-old MP -- age is a factor. If a 55-year-old MP makes advances
0:07:52 > 0:07:58to a young activist, is that unacceptable in your view?Any MPs
0:07:58 > 0:08:02and elected officials in our party or others are in positions of power,
0:08:02 > 0:08:06and if they abuse that power, it is wrong and should not be happening.
0:08:06 > 0:08:13Chris Cook was saying, in some of these cases, the women seem to have
0:08:13 > 0:08:18had good relations with the MP or the person beforehand, and good
0:08:18 > 0:08:23relations afterwards. Do you think... Because I think a lot of
0:08:23 > 0:08:27people will say, it can't be so bad if they were friends afterwards. Do
0:08:27 > 0:08:33you think that can form any part of the defence of somebody accused of
0:08:33 > 0:08:37inappropriately propositioning or forcing themselves on someone?No,
0:08:37 > 0:08:41because, as I say, I mean, these people are in positions of power,
0:08:41 > 0:08:45and ultimately, these are the people deciding on the laws in our country,
0:08:45 > 0:08:49and they should know better. As I said today in my e-mail, with the
0:08:49 > 0:08:55Labour Party, we want to look like the society which we wish to create,
0:08:55 > 0:08:59and if our MPs don't look like that and our own procedures don't look
0:08:59 > 0:09:06like that, then I worry that we, you know, the public will see that.
0:09:06 > 0:09:09There will be enquiries and a lot of these cases and it will often be one
0:09:09 > 0:09:13word against another - how do you tell if Clive Lewis squeezed
0:09:13 > 0:09:18someone's bottom? Do you think we should always default to believing
0:09:18 > 0:09:23the woman, the victim, in these cases? It will be difficult... In
0:09:23 > 0:09:28the past, people have always said we have not given sufficient weight to
0:09:28 > 0:09:34victims' testimony.My go- to is to believe those coming forward because
0:09:34 > 0:09:39obviously if you get a lot of... Well maybe it's not true, and it
0:09:39 > 0:09:44stops people coming forward. That has to be for the investigation's
0:09:44 > 0:09:50panel to look at all these details, and ideally, that's why we would
0:09:50 > 0:09:53have an independent body looking at those so we can ensure the procedure
0:09:53 > 0:09:57is rigorous.Thank you very much indeed.
0:09:57 > 0:09:59Ian Birrell is a former speech writer for David Cameron,
0:09:59 > 0:10:02and is now a contributing editor for the Mail on Sunday and writes
0:10:02 > 0:10:06for the "i" newspaper.
0:10:06 > 0:10:11Ian, how big a crisis is this for our politics?I think it is a big
0:10:11 > 0:10:15crisis. People are compared it to the expenses scandal but I think it
0:10:15 > 0:10:18goes beyond that. It is a political issue rather than a party issue. It
0:10:18 > 0:10:23goes to the heart of culture and society. We see a glimpse of a
0:10:23 > 0:10:26problem where too many men in powerful positions think they can
0:10:26 > 0:10:31abuse their positions, and too many women are having their careers
0:10:31 > 0:10:34dented, their confidence ruined and their aspirations to engage in the
0:10:34 > 0:10:37political system devastated and destroyed. This is a culture that
0:10:37 > 0:10:43has the change.This might prompt a bigger change then the expenses
0:10:43 > 0:10:47scandal bid. Obviously, that led to reform of the expenses system. This
0:10:47 > 0:10:52might change our whole way of life in the Commons really.The hope is
0:10:52 > 0:10:57gone out of this mess emerges a more sensible system in the running of
0:10:57 > 0:11:00the Commons and the career structure. It is about attitudes in
0:11:00 > 0:11:04the heart of society, which hasn't to be forgotten. It is about women
0:11:04 > 0:11:08who are having their lives devastated and men abusing, which is
0:11:08 > 0:11:18to be tackled.Does this crisis bring an election closer? Does it
0:11:18 > 0:11:22remove the Government's working majority with the Ulster Unionist?
0:11:22 > 0:11:26We don't know yet. We are in the foothills and every day there was an
0:11:26 > 0:11:31astonishing development, like today. If the Labour leader has knowingly
0:11:31 > 0:11:35promoted someone whom they knew had been accused, justifiably, which we
0:11:35 > 0:11:40don't know yet, but if that is the case, it raises serious questions as
0:11:40 > 0:11:44to whether Jeremy Corbyn is fit to be Labour leader. If Theresa May has
0:11:44 > 0:11:48been engaged in cover-ups, there are questions there. If you are not fit
0:11:48 > 0:11:51to be in the cabinet, I don't understand how you are still fit to
0:11:51 > 0:11:54be an MP. These are profound questions which need to be dealt
0:11:54 > 0:12:04with.Them eBay -- there may be by-elections.It is about equal
0:12:04 > 0:12:11rights for 50% of society.We are in crucial times, than this, with
0:12:11 > 0:12:13Brexit, and Parliament and the Government have to make some
0:12:13 > 0:12:19difficult decisions in the next two years.It is a body blow from
0:12:19 > 0:12:23politics. The lack of faith, the lack of trust, the economic woes,
0:12:23 > 0:12:29and this is one more body blow in a divided country with a pathetically
0:12:29 > 0:12:32weak Prime Minister and a political system not trusted by a lot of
0:12:32 > 0:12:35people, with these divisions in society, it could be worse timing.
0:12:35 > 0:12:38But that mustn't get in the way of resolving these really critical
0:12:38 > 0:12:45issues.Ian Beryl, thank you very much.
0:12:45 > 0:12:50Just one paper of note tomorrow - the Sun carries a headlines saying
0:12:50 > 0:12:52Chris Evans the BBC Radio 2 DJ exposed himself
0:12:52 > 0:13:02to a girl for two years.
0:13:02 > 0:13:07The BBC has said tonight:
0:13:11 > 0:13:18They said they would not comment on a story that dates back more than 20
0:13:18 > 0:13:18years.
0:13:18 > 0:13:20It also says police investigated at the time and there
0:13:20 > 0:13:22was insufficient evidence.
0:13:22 > 0:13:24Bit by bit, so-called Islamic State is being driven
0:13:24 > 0:13:25out of Iraq and Syria.
0:13:25 > 0:13:29Syrian troops have taken the last city in which Isis had a presence,
0:13:29 > 0:13:32and the group is now reduced to two small enclaves in Western Syria,
0:13:32 > 0:13:34and a section of the Euphrates River Valley spanning the border
0:13:34 > 0:13:38of Syria and Iraq.
0:13:38 > 0:13:41That's not to say Isis is over, but it is not the force it was,
0:13:41 > 0:13:45a fact for which many are thankful.
0:13:45 > 0:13:49And it means we can now find out more about what life was like
0:13:49 > 0:13:50when Isis was in control.
0:13:50 > 0:13:52As it has retreated, it has left thousands of women
0:13:52 > 0:13:53and children behind.
0:13:53 > 0:13:55Some are the abandoned families of IS fighters,
0:13:55 > 0:13:57others are being held as prisoners or slaves.
0:13:57 > 0:14:00There are also boys who were forced to fight for IS.
0:14:00 > 0:14:03The goal now is to reunite families and to rehabilitate those whose
0:14:03 > 0:14:04minds have been stolen by the group.
0:14:04 > 0:14:07Tim Whewell reports now from Iraq on the children left behind
0:14:07 > 0:14:08by the fighters of Islamic state.
0:14:08 > 0:14:19You might find some of the testimony upsetting.
0:14:19 > 0:14:21# If you're happy, happy, happy
0:14:21 > 0:14:27# Clap your hands...#
0:14:27 > 0:14:29In a classroom in northern
0:14:29 > 0:14:31Iraq, they're singing
0:14:31 > 0:14:41to overcome their memories.
0:14:44 > 0:14:46These nine and ten-year-olds were all captives of
0:14:46 > 0:14:47so-called Islamic State,
0:14:47 > 0:14:51where music was Haram - forbidden.
0:14:51 > 0:14:53From their smiles, you might not guess the violence they've seen,
0:14:53 > 0:14:58but they're all scarred by it.
0:14:58 > 0:15:05ISIS enslaved this boy and his sister three years ago.
0:15:17 > 0:15:24So what did they tell you about the guns?
0:15:29 > 0:15:34The children at this rehabilitation centre are Yazidi,
0:15:34 > 0:15:36part of the non-Muslim minority singled out for particular
0:15:36 > 0:15:41cruelty by ISIS.
0:15:41 > 0:15:43In 2014, their villages were seized and thousands of men
0:15:43 > 0:15:50murdered on the spot.
0:15:50 > 0:15:53The women were sold into slavery, and children taken for re-education
0:15:53 > 0:15:56to serve the so-called Caliphate.
0:15:56 > 0:16:00What did they say about your family?
0:16:12 > 0:16:15When first they talk aboutt their experience,
0:16:15 > 0:16:19it was not actually easy and good, but now they can express
0:16:19 > 0:16:25it in a different way.
0:16:25 > 0:16:28At first they were just too scared to talk about it.
0:16:28 > 0:16:31Now they can talk about it, but freely, but in a better way,
0:16:31 > 0:16:34like they don't express so much, I wouldn't say anger, but they feel
0:16:34 > 0:16:35comfortable and relaxed now.
0:16:35 > 0:16:39But they say they've seen things which are truly shocking.
0:17:14 > 0:17:19Now, every day brings more Yazidi children to camps like this one,
0:17:19 > 0:17:23as they return from captivity.
0:17:23 > 0:17:29And many not only witnessed atrocities, they became instruments
0:17:29 > 0:17:36in the Isis project themselves.
0:17:36 > 0:17:41The terror group trained thousands of boys like these.
0:17:41 > 0:17:44They called them lion cubs of the Caliphate.
0:17:44 > 0:17:46They were fighters, informers, suicide bombers.
0:17:46 > 0:17:50More than 50 boys blew themselves up defending the biggest Isis-held
0:17:50 > 0:17:55city, Mosul, before it fell in July.
0:17:55 > 0:17:57Some were children of foreign fighters, others recruited
0:17:57 > 0:18:05or kidnapped from local families.
0:18:05 > 0:18:07Zahed is a 14-year-old Yazidi boy, reunited with his father
0:18:07 > 0:18:11just three weeks ago.
0:18:11 > 0:18:14But his three years away have left a gulf between them.
0:18:14 > 0:18:16Zahed lost his native language, Kurdish, and was forcibly converted
0:18:16 > 0:18:26to the Isis version of Islam.
0:18:26 > 0:18:29All that time, they were teaching you guns, and they were teaching
0:18:29 > 0:18:31you about the Koran, what were they telling
0:18:31 > 0:18:41you about the Koran?
0:18:45 > 0:18:48And he nearly was killed, as he was launched into an attack
0:18:48 > 0:18:50just five months ago, over the Syrian border.
0:18:50 > 0:18:59How is your leg now?
0:19:08 > 0:19:15Who did they say the enemy was?
0:19:16 > 0:19:18The infidels.
0:19:18 > 0:19:23The non-Muslims.
0:19:23 > 0:19:26According to Isis, his own father is an infidel,
0:19:26 > 0:19:35and after three years, not surprisingly, part of the boy's
0:19:35 > 0:19:40mind may still belong to the group he was forced to fight for.
0:19:47 > 0:19:53What do they show, the videos?
0:20:18 > 0:20:22Back at the camp, the two children, returning from their music class,
0:20:22 > 0:20:28are taking me to meet their mother and their aunt.
0:20:28 > 0:20:33He was separated from his mother, when Isis captured them.
0:20:33 > 0:20:40The family later paid a $28,000 ransom for his release.
0:21:02 > 0:21:05His military training was shortlived.
0:21:05 > 0:21:08Isis gave up on him after a few days, as the eight-year-old cried
0:21:08 > 0:21:13and failed to learn.
0:21:13 > 0:21:16But though he has come home, many other Isis captives haven't.
0:21:16 > 0:21:18The children's aunt says that even though Isis has
0:21:18 > 0:21:20been largely defeated, some Isis families are still holding
0:21:20 > 0:21:28Yazidi children, passing them off as their own.
0:22:06 > 0:22:08Yazidi children like these have suffered unimaginable horrors
0:22:08 > 0:22:09during their short lives.
0:22:09 > 0:22:19But no-one knows how many more still need to be rescued.
0:22:23 > 0:22:26You can see a longer version of Tim Whewell's film on "Our World"
0:22:26 > 0:22:28on the BBC News Channel at 9.30 on Saturday night,
0:22:28 > 0:22:37and 9.30 on Sunday night, and, of course, on the iPlayer.
0:22:37 > 0:22:40It is getting hard to keep up with the allegations and revelations
0:22:40 > 0:22:42about sexual harassment that are now forthcoming.
0:22:42 > 0:22:44Names are coming thick and fast - not just in politics.
0:22:44 > 0:22:48Kevin Spacey and Dustin Hoffman are two that have emerged
0:22:48 > 0:22:51this week for example.
0:22:51 > 0:22:54But when you find out about the bad behaviour of big stars
0:22:54 > 0:22:57who you have admired or loved, does it affect your
0:22:57 > 0:22:58appreciation of their art?
0:22:58 > 0:23:01I consider the Woody Allen film Annie Hall to be one
0:23:01 > 0:23:05of the best movies ever - but knowing that his adopted
0:23:05 > 0:23:09daughter has accused him of sexual abuse, should I reassess my opinion?
0:23:09 > 0:23:11What's the difference?
0:23:11 > 0:23:12It's all mental masturbation.
0:23:12 > 0:23:14Oh, now we're finally getting to a subject you
0:23:14 > 0:23:15know something about.
0:23:15 > 0:23:17Just because allegations arise about the director,
0:23:17 > 0:23:20doesn't mean the script changes, or the quality of the acting -
0:23:20 > 0:23:22it's the same film it always was.
0:23:22 > 0:23:25But we have a relationship with a film that goes
0:23:25 > 0:23:28deeper than the lines, some kind of aesthetic
0:23:28 > 0:23:32connection that speaks to
0:23:32 > 0:23:35us, and what it says surely does alter with the perception of those
0:23:35 > 0:23:36behind the work.
0:23:36 > 0:23:37David?
0:23:37 > 0:23:40It's his name.
0:23:40 > 0:23:42The point is most clearly made by Bill Cosby.
0:23:42 > 0:23:45His character was a lovable dad, a role model.
0:23:45 > 0:23:52You felt he was Bill Cosby.
0:23:52 > 0:23:55Given the admission that the real Cosby drugged women for sex,
0:23:55 > 0:24:00it's hard to watch the show in the same way again.
0:24:00 > 0:24:01Or take Roman Polanski.
0:24:01 > 0:24:04Is it OK to watch movies of someone who's
0:24:04 > 0:24:06exiled himself to avoid court action for rape?
0:24:06 > 0:24:08His case raises the additional question of whether you
0:24:08 > 0:24:10want to give commercial reward to someone whose
0:24:10 > 0:24:13behaviour is appalling by buying their product.
0:24:13 > 0:24:16This is an omnipresent dilemma and arises in
0:24:16 > 0:24:21cases of the dead as well as the living.
0:24:21 > 0:24:24A statue by sculptor and typographer Eric Gill sits outside
0:24:24 > 0:24:28the BBC's Broadcasting House.
0:24:28 > 0:24:34After his death, it emerged he'd abused his daughters.
0:24:34 > 0:24:36Does it now makes sense to stop using the ubiquitous
0:24:36 > 0:24:40Gill Sans typeface?
0:24:40 > 0:24:43For some, Kevin Spacey's House Of Cards is the most pressing
0:24:43 > 0:24:44application of this issue.
0:24:44 > 0:24:46Production has stopped on the latest series,
0:24:46 > 0:24:49but if they finished making it, would as many people want to watch
0:24:49 > 0:24:53it as in previous ones?
0:24:53 > 0:24:55Joining me in the studio to discuss is the writer and Guardian
0:24:55 > 0:24:57columnist Lucy Mangan, and writer and sociology
0:24:57 > 0:25:05professor at Birmingham City University, Kehinde Andrews.
0:25:07 > 0:25:14Kehinde, can I ask you, let us take the House of Cards, it is one I have
0:25:14 > 0:25:17heard people talking about, what would be be your stance on that?In
0:25:17 > 0:25:21terms of this debate you have to understand you can't separate out
0:25:21 > 0:25:26the art from the artist, in the same way you can't separate out racist
0:25:26 > 0:25:31theorists from racist theory, you can't separate out the idea you have
0:25:31 > 0:25:35people who are sexual predators from producing work that has created what
0:25:35 > 0:25:39we call rape culture, these two things go hand in hand and they
0:25:39 > 0:25:42can't be separated out, especially in this case.I take it you think,
0:25:42 > 0:25:49and it is 178 will like boycotting the products of people who are
0:25:49 > 0:25:53sexual predators or evil sexual predators.The idea you can separate
0:25:53 > 0:26:00these two things out, it is not correct. There is a reason why Kos
0:26:00 > 0:26:04bee, Polanski, spacey, it is a reason this is men and sexual
0:26:04 > 0:26:07violence, unfortunately that seems to be the permissible and that is
0:26:07 > 0:26:11something which is legitimate within the industry.I want to pushdown
0:26:11 > 0:26:14more time, you wouldn't watch House of Cards that the point?I do watch
0:26:14 > 0:26:18it and I won't like it has changed the way I think about it, it changes
0:26:18 > 0:26:24the way I see the character, knowing what I now know.What about you, do
0:26:24 > 0:26:29you have any sort of guilt about sop some of these, the ones we have seen
0:26:29 > 0:26:34in that little film?It depends whether the art is existing or if by
0:26:34 > 0:26:39watching it, I am putting more money into someone who is a proven
0:26:39 > 0:26:45predator. I think there is a different between that and watching
0:26:45 > 0:26:50old Woodley Alan films for pleasure, in you get rid of everything that
0:26:50 > 0:26:54has been tainted over history, and especially the clip we are going at
0:26:54 > 0:26:58now, you end up with very little, and also I worry that if you do
0:26:58 > 0:27:02boycott everything and if you take it off the television and off
0:27:02 > 0:27:08Netflix and the rest of it, you erase quite a part of the story, we
0:27:08 > 0:27:14have to learn to sit with the fact that these great things, and less
0:27:14 > 0:27:18great things were often created by terrible people. We have to sit with
0:27:18 > 0:27:22that and learn that, that they correlate and great talent doesn't
0:27:22 > 0:27:29mean a great person.It almost gets you to the debate about the statue
0:27:29 > 0:27:36of Cecil Rhodes and almost the same. Where do you draw the line Kehinde?
0:27:36 > 0:27:41It is sex and sexual aggression does seem to be taken as a more, more
0:27:41 > 0:27:45seriously than other violent crime, you could imagine somebody involved
0:27:45 > 0:27:50in a violent crime or coming out of jail for some offence that is not
0:27:50 > 0:27:54sexual by nature, and I don't think you would take the same view of not
0:27:54 > 0:27:58wanting to watch their product, as you would about a known sexual
0:27:58 > 0:28:01predator.I think there is a distinction here, because I think
0:28:01 > 0:28:05one of the things is if you have done a crime and you have given, you
0:28:05 > 0:28:08have served time for that crime, will is a question about do you,
0:28:08 > 0:28:12have you recuperated? In the issues we are talking about, these are
0:28:12 > 0:28:20things that have gone unpunished, if what is being is true and they
0:28:20 > 0:28:23haven't been punished, and I think that is why it is important that
0:28:23 > 0:28:29this, it is not a coincidence these are of a sexual nature, it is not a
0:28:29 > 0:28:32coincidence it is men and it ties into the culture of the product we
0:28:32 > 0:28:36are talking about.Lucy, it is quite clear, isn't it, that there are
0:28:36 > 0:28:41things we will take out. No-one is going to see archive of top of the
0:28:41 > 0:28:45pops with Jimmy Savile, that is removed from the public space, isn't
0:28:45 > 0:28:50it. So clearly, there is a sort of line, and I imagine you agree with
0:28:50 > 0:28:57not showing archive...I think we all make moral choices on a
0:28:57 > 0:29:03continuum and as a watcher or viewer we make that decision. Obviously I
0:29:03 > 0:29:09would choose, easily choose not to watch Jim'll Fix It repeats because
0:29:09 > 0:29:13of the weight of that art compared to what he did, is there is no
0:29:13 > 0:29:18contest, but there is a whole other grey area, where we make on an
0:29:18 > 0:29:22individual basis a trade off, but it becomes very difficult if people are
0:29:22 > 0:29:26making those trade offs or deciding those on our behalf. That is where I
0:29:26 > 0:29:33worry we get into pushing a whole lot of stuff aside.The case of Eric
0:29:33 > 0:29:40Gill, he has been dead for decades now, pretty hideous stuff he did in
0:29:40 > 0:29:44his life without anyone realising it until afterwards. For you we just
0:29:44 > 0:29:49have to accept he was a flawed person and but nevertheless enjoy
0:29:49 > 0:29:54his type face and his work.That is a difficult one. I was writing a
0:29:54 > 0:30:01book about children's literature and there is an author there who was an
0:30:01 > 0:30:04active paedophile throughout his life while he was writing and was
0:30:04 > 0:30:07convicted for it, and I had to decide whether to put him in the
0:30:07 > 0:30:16book or keep him out. In the end I made an irrational emotional act.
0:30:16 > 0:30:21But it is not logical and it is not, and I feel bad about not having put
0:30:21 > 0:30:26him in the history of it when he was a very thought of writer. I don't
0:30:26 > 0:30:32think that is purely right but I did think made the morality of the
0:30:32 > 0:30:35decision outweighed the, the sort of academic.I understand what you are
0:30:35 > 0:30:43saying. There is an aesthetic connection. But, sorry Kehinde, do
0:30:43 > 0:30:48you want to come in on that point? We need to start decentring the
0:30:48 > 0:30:53people who do this. By saying this is great art and we have to keep it,
0:30:53 > 0:30:57by doing that we are ignoring the other art that goes on, the women
0:30:57 > 0:31:00minorities who produce art which we haven't said is this wonderful
0:31:00 > 0:31:04piece, right. I think that is really important. Sometimes it is about
0:31:04 > 0:31:07shifting away from the dominant narratives and away from some of the
0:31:07 > 0:31:12things we think is good. Opening up the debate.You don't worry,
0:31:12 > 0:31:16briefly, you don't worry you will end up throwing away too much stuff.
0:31:16 > 0:31:24We will lose half the historic art out there.If if we end up using a
0:31:24 > 0:31:27lot so more people come in, that is the risk we have to take.We need to
0:31:27 > 0:31:31leave it there. Thank you both very much indeed.
0:31:31 > 0:31:36Thank you both very much indeed.
0:31:36 > 0:31:40That's all from us this evening.
0:31:40 > 0:31:40I