0:00:21 > 0:00:22Lord Ashcroft, hi, I'm Richard Bilton,
0:00:22 > 0:00:23I work for Panorama, sir,
0:00:23 > 0:00:25can I have a quick word with you?
0:00:25 > 0:00:29I've been trying to send you these letters, but you wouldn't take them.
0:00:29 > 0:00:31Sir, can I just have a quick word with you?
0:00:31 > 0:00:34Did you have tens of millions in an offshore trust that
0:00:34 > 0:00:35you secretly controlled, sir?
0:00:35 > 0:00:36Does that mean you could avoid millions
0:00:36 > 0:00:39in tax through that trust?
0:00:46 > 0:00:51Dear, dear, dear, is that your response?
0:01:10 > 0:01:17She doesn't remember anything.
0:01:17 > 0:01:19Down
0:01:56 > 0:01:58Where are we going to end up?
0:01:58 > 0:02:00I'm not going to follow you in there, sir.
0:02:00 > 0:02:05CHUCKLES
0:02:05 > 0:02:06Good evening.
0:02:06 > 0:02:11More revelations this evening from the cache of 13.4 million files
0:02:11 > 0:02:13called the Paradise Papers, including the news that
0:02:13 > 0:02:17Britain's top racing driver, Lewis Hamilton, avoided VAT
0:02:17 > 0:02:22of £3.3 million on a private jet registered in The Isle of Man.
0:02:22 > 0:02:25In order to claim the VAT relief, the jet should have been used
0:02:25 > 0:02:29exclusively for business, but Hamilton posted a picture
0:02:29 > 0:02:32on Twitter of himself by the steps of the plane saying he was off
0:02:32 > 0:02:34on a two-day holiday.
0:02:34 > 0:02:36His lawyers told Panorama that the structure was lawful.
0:02:36 > 0:02:39Following last night's revelation that the Queen's private estate
0:02:39 > 0:02:44invested 10 million in offshore funds, Jeremy Corbyn has called
0:02:44 > 0:02:48for the monarch's tax affairs to be investigated,
0:02:48 > 0:02:51and for her to apologise - even though there's no
0:02:51 > 0:02:56suggestion she avoided tax or knew anything about the Duchy's
0:02:56 > 0:02:57of Lancaster's investments.
0:02:57 > 0:02:59Also amongst the latest trawl of the files,
0:02:59 > 0:03:03the news that Apple managed to take a massive bite out of their tax bill
0:03:03 > 0:03:07by basing themselves in Jersey when an advantageous Irish tax
0:03:07 > 0:03:08scheme was scrapped.
0:03:08 > 0:03:12We'll be exploring all this tonight, but first I'm joined by our business
0:03:12 > 0:03:15editor Helen Thomas.
0:03:15 > 0:03:18Helen, what is the detail on Apple shopping around for
0:03:18 > 0:03:21Helen, what is the detail on Apple shopping around for a new base?This
0:03:21 > 0:03:26is about Apple's business outside the US, where it books sales and
0:03:26 > 0:03:31profits and where it holds offshore cash, about $250 billion. Up to
0:03:31 > 0:03:352014, it used this thing called the double Irish, a gap between Irish
0:03:35 > 0:03:39and US tax rules, which basically meant its Irish subsidiaries could
0:03:39 > 0:03:43be stateless for tax purposes. They didn't belong anywhere. Now that
0:03:43 > 0:03:49kept its tax rate outside the US quite low, very low some might say.
0:03:49 > 0:03:54This came under scrutiny. So the Senate criticised them in 20 #13,
0:03:54 > 0:03:57the European Commission launched an investigation and Ireland then
0:03:57 > 0:04:02changed the rules. Now according to the papers what Apple then did was
0:04:02 > 0:04:06basically go shopping, go looking for a new international home. It
0:04:06 > 0:04:10sent a questionnaire to seven jurisdictions places like Bermuda,
0:04:10 > 0:04:14Cayman, the Isle of Man, asking what benefits they might offer.
0:04:14 > 0:04:17Eventually they settled on Jersey. We asked Apple for a comment
0:04:17 > 0:04:23tonight. They declined. But what has been Apple's general response to all
0:04:23 > 0:04:27this?What they've said is that they're the world's largest
0:04:27 > 0:04:31taxpayer. They say they've paid $35 billion in corporation tax over the
0:04:31 > 0:04:37past three years. They say they've followed the law and they've said
0:04:37 > 0:04:40that the various changes they made in this period, and there were
0:04:40 > 0:04:43multiple changes, not reduce tax payments in any country.There's not
0:04:43 > 0:04:47just Apple, big companies like Starbucks, Google and so forth who
0:04:47 > 0:04:50are essentially American companies, so why don't they pay all their tax
0:04:50 > 0:04:55in America?Apple, today for example, pays lots of tax in the US.
0:04:55 > 0:04:59They have a big business there. But the US tax system is slightly
0:04:59 > 0:05:03unusual. Most tax regimes say you pay taxes in the country where you
0:05:03 > 0:05:08make the money, the US system wants to tax worldwide earnings. That's
0:05:08 > 0:05:13why, but you only are taxed on them when you bring them back to the US.
0:05:13 > 0:05:22That's why lots of big US companies, tech companies, pharma companies
0:05:22 > 0:05:26keep the money overseas and then structure to keep bills as low as
0:05:26 > 0:05:32they can be.Thanks very much. Appleby the law firm at the heart of
0:05:32 > 0:05:36the leak was set up in Bermuda which is still seen as a tax haven.
0:05:36 > 0:05:38Joining me now is Bermuda's Premier and Minister
0:05:38 > 0:05:39of Finance, David Burt.
0:05:39 > 0:05:49Good evening to you.Good evening to you.Price Waterhouse Cooper,
0:05:49 > 0:05:53internationally renowned accountants say Bermuda imposes no taxes on
0:05:53 > 0:05:56profits, income, dividends or capital gains, has no limit on
0:05:56 > 0:06:01accumulation of profit, no requirement to distribute dividends.
0:06:01 > 0:06:06What do you think attracted Lord Ashcroft to a place like Bermuda?
0:06:06 > 0:06:11Well, I don't know what attracted Lord Ashcroft to Bermuda. I can say,
0:06:11 > 0:06:15and I think it's important for your viewers to understand, that Bermuda
0:06:15 > 0:06:19has a robust regulatory regime and due to the new global regulations,
0:06:19 > 0:06:23every single UK national who has accounts in Bermuda, that
0:06:23 > 0:06:26information is transferred all matically to Her Majesty's Revenue &
0:06:26 > 0:06:31Customs. So there could be many reasons why many people can be in
0:06:31 > 0:06:34Bermuda but it cannot be to avoid taxes, as we report everything to
0:06:34 > 0:06:38the UK authorities.So maybe he was just there because the weather was
0:06:38 > 0:06:42good, it's a good place to do business?Well, it's an excellent
0:06:42 > 0:06:47place to do business. Bermuda is a global -You're not worried about
0:06:47 > 0:06:55unsavoury people? Bringing their business to Bermuda?We have a very
0:06:55 > 0:06:59robust regulatory regime. We are rated - we have numerous reviews
0:06:59 > 0:07:03when it comes to anti-money laundering, antiterrorist financing
0:07:03 > 0:07:07and making sure that we apply the highest standards. From the
0:07:07 > 0:07:12perspective of Bermuda we do not have anonymous coming to Bermuda. We
0:07:12 > 0:07:15have a 70-year beneficial ownership register W eknow who owns our
0:07:15 > 0:07:20companies. Can you not come here to set up an Annan muss company or to
0:07:20 > 0:07:23hide your money because we report all money in Bermuda to
0:07:23 > 0:07:30international tax authorities.But the point about trying to get
0:07:30 > 0:07:33information from Bermuda, if a company is registered there, how do
0:07:33 > 0:07:37you get the balance sheet? If I want to go looking, if I want to look for
0:07:37 > 0:07:41a British company, I go to Companies House or go online and get it in 30
0:07:41 > 0:07:46seconds. That doesn't happen there, it's not transparent or speedily
0:07:46 > 0:07:54understood.Well, what I would say is that any company, which is a
0:07:54 > 0:07:57British company, and/or any person who is a British national who has
0:07:57 > 0:08:02any type of account in Bermuda, that information is automatically shared
0:08:02 > 0:08:05with the UK tax authorities. Her Majesty's revenue an customs gets
0:08:05 > 0:08:07that information automatically. That information is without question
0:08:07 > 0:08:12transferred. The issue here is a question of tax avoidance. You
0:08:12 > 0:08:15cannot avoid taxes if we are reporting all of your financial
0:08:15 > 0:08:19account information to Her Majesty's Revenue & Customs, which is what we
0:08:19 > 0:08:24do here in permeweda. We are a -- Bermuda. We are a leading centre for
0:08:24 > 0:08:27international business and we are a leading centre in transparency. We
0:08:27 > 0:08:31are proud of our record.We know from Panorama tonight there's a
0:08:31 > 0:08:36leaked presentation by Appleby, it was founded in Bermuda. The firm
0:08:36 > 0:08:41gave staff in Bermuda a briefing which said there was systematic
0:08:41 > 0:08:44non-compliance in Bermuda, no risk assessments done. Doesn't that worry
0:08:44 > 0:08:49you?Well, it would worry me if that was what happened all the time. But
0:08:49 > 0:08:53what you will see -Surely if that happens any of the time you should
0:08:53 > 0:08:58be worried.What I would say is I think what you would have seen
0:08:58 > 0:09:02further inside the same item which you're speaking about is the
0:09:02 > 0:09:05enforcement acts which had taken place and making sure we keep our
0:09:05 > 0:09:08companies up to date. From the perspective of anti-money
0:09:08 > 0:09:11laundering, with ehave a robust regime. We examine and hold our
0:09:11 > 0:09:17companies to very high standards. Systematic non-compliance in
0:09:17 > 0:09:23Bermuda, not the odd bit of non-compliance, systematic
0:09:23 > 0:09:27non-compliance in Bermuda, no risk assessment. I imagine that by your
0:09:27 > 0:09:32own lights you would say Appleby is one of your biggest and most
0:09:32 > 0:09:34prestigious firms. This is the briefing, the leaked presentation
0:09:34 > 0:09:41they gave staff. That is not a flash in the pan one-off. It's systematic.
0:09:41 > 0:09:44And what I would say is that it's easy to take a single document out
0:09:44 > 0:09:51of context. But what I can speak to is the entirety of Bermuda's system.
0:09:51 > 0:09:55From our perspective we have a robust regulatory regime, assessed
0:09:55 > 0:09:58by international assessors. We are confident that we check the people
0:09:58 > 0:10:04who come here. With eknow who comes here and we have an internal process
0:10:04 > 0:10:07to ensure that people coming to Bermuda their money is clean. If
0:10:07 > 0:10:11we're found to be in violation of any type of matters, we will
0:10:11 > 0:10:14investigate them to the fullest extent of the law. That is why
0:10:14 > 0:10:20Bermuda is different than other places.We can't find out often who
0:10:20 > 0:10:24the final beneficial owners are of companies in Bermuda. Presumably
0:10:24 > 0:10:27because those people don't want to be found out, because clients don't
0:10:27 > 0:10:34want to be transparent when they use Bermuda facilities.Her Majesty's
0:10:34 > 0:10:37Revenue & Customs gets all the information, so Her Majesty's
0:10:37 > 0:10:43Revenue & Customs knows the beneficial ownership of any person
0:10:43 > 0:10:49and entity in Bermuda. In addition, we share that information with 114
0:10:49 > 0:10:52treaty partners around the world. So they are able to find out the tax
0:10:52 > 0:10:57authorities in their home countries get information shared automatically
0:10:57 > 0:11:02from Bermuda of those persons. It is not accurate to say that the UK
0:11:02 > 0:11:07authorities do not know who the beneficial owners are of Bermuda
0:11:07 > 0:11:10companies. They are aware because we share that information
0:11:10 > 0:11:13automatically.Thank you for joining us.
0:11:13 > 0:11:19Just to be clear, Lord Ashcroft denies any wrongdoing.
0:11:19 > 0:11:25Bermuda seems to be saying this systematic failure talked about by
0:11:25 > 0:11:30Appleby is simply not the case.I think what we have to remember and
0:11:30 > 0:11:34what I've heard from many tax practitioners I've spoken to today
0:11:34 > 0:11:41is that these cases span many different jurisdictions, many
0:11:41 > 0:11:46different types of taxpayer, companies and individuals, many
0:11:46 > 0:11:52different issues. Some of them are worried it's all being lumped into
0:11:52 > 0:11:57one category of tax avoidance and there are concerns around what's
0:11:57 > 0:12:01going on. What we've been trying to do today is unpack some of these
0:12:01 > 0:12:05different issues.
0:12:05 > 0:12:10Is there a chill wind blowing through paradise? The Paradise
0:12:10 > 0:12:16Papers have put tax and all business done in offshore locations back into
0:12:16 > 0:12:22the spotlight. The term "offshore" covers a wide range, spanning the
0:12:22 > 0:12:27pretty uncontroversial to the down right illegal. But by one estimate,
0:12:27 > 0:12:32about 8% of global household wealth is held offshore, or in so-called
0:12:32 > 0:12:36havens, which can promise individuals or companies a very low
0:12:36 > 0:12:41tax bill. And it is predominantly the preserve of the very rich, the
0:12:41 > 0:12:49top 0. 1% richest households own about 80% of that offshore wealth.
0:12:49 > 0:12:54The latest revelations raise questions around tax, secrecy and
0:12:54 > 0:13:02ethics. First stop - tax. Say offshore, you think tax. But legal
0:13:02 > 0:13:09tax avoidance or tax planning comes in many forms. Did Lewis Hamilton
0:13:09 > 0:13:13use a conaluted leasing structure to avoid paying VAT on a private jet?
0:13:13 > 0:13:18I've been trying to send you these letters...Or how was a
0:13:18 > 0:13:22Bermuda-based trust, set up by Lord Ashcroft, actually managed? Then
0:13:22 > 0:13:28there's Apple. We already knew some of the biggest US companies
0:13:28 > 0:13:30structure their international businesses to pay as little tax as
0:13:30 > 0:13:38possible. In this case, when one tax minimising avenue shut down, it
0:13:38 > 0:13:40seems Apple successfully went looking for another. For some,
0:13:40 > 0:13:46that's part of the problem.We haven't made more progress because
0:13:46 > 0:13:48governments are driven by self-interest rather than collective
0:13:48 > 0:13:53interest. We have to recognise that governments have domestic political
0:13:53 > 0:13:57concerns. We have to look to governments to provide solutions
0:13:57 > 0:14:02that work at a domestic level, but also to provide leadership in the
0:14:02 > 0:14:07international community and in 2014, 2015, on occasions, Osborne and
0:14:07 > 0:14:13Cameron were doing that. Since then, I'm afraid, we've been back sliding.
0:14:13 > 0:14:19To avoid scrutiny, you need secrecy. Wilbur Ross, President Trump's
0:14:19 > 0:14:22commerce secretary, said today there was nothing improper about his
0:14:22 > 0:14:28business connections to Russian figures, revealed in the papers.
0:14:28 > 0:14:34Commodities giant Glencore's links it a controversial Israeli
0:14:34 > 0:14:38businessman were highlighted in the papers. Some argue there are good
0:14:38 > 0:14:42reasons for going offshore, everything from secrecy to
0:14:42 > 0:14:47administrative simply I. To others, they're all bad.There are four
0:14:47 > 0:14:50reasons why people use tax havens. The first is because they deliver
0:14:50 > 0:14:56tax advantages. The second is because they deliver secrecy. The
0:14:56 > 0:15:00third is because they can put your assets beyond the reach of your
0:15:00 > 0:15:05creditors and the fourth is because they offer a laxer regulatory
0:15:05 > 0:15:09regime. All of those things undercut the regulatory regime that the
0:15:09 > 0:15:14Parliament in your home country has dictated shall apply and judged by
0:15:14 > 0:15:16that yard stick they are all of them bad.
0:15:16 > 0:15:22So is it all a question of ethics? Does everything offshore now come
0:15:22 > 0:15:27with the taint of being northerlily grubby? Plenty of UK pensions and
0:15:27 > 0:15:33savings money goes into funds based in Ireland or Luxembourg. One
0:15:33 > 0:15:36argument is that very wealthy public figures should set a higher
0:15:36 > 0:15:43standard. The Queen's private estate invested about £10 million in Cayman
0:15:43 > 0:15:47island and Bermuda based private equity funds. Some of that money
0:15:47 > 0:15:56ended up invested in UK retailers, including bright Brighthouse, a
0:15:56 > 0:15:59chain accused of irresponsible lending. It doesn't appear that the
0:15:59 > 0:16:03Queen was motivated by tax or secrecy. On the basis of what we
0:16:03 > 0:16:11know, she didn't seem to reduce her tax bill. Her advisors won't have
0:16:11 > 0:16:16decided where the money ended up. So it seems to be a question of
0:16:16 > 0:16:21appropriateness or ethics. Should her money have ever, under any
0:16:21 > 0:16:28circumstances, ended up in something with Cayman fund in the title?
0:16:28 > 0:16:35Offshore is a lot better behaved than it was a decade or two ago.
0:16:35 > 0:16:38There are some rightful questions which can be asked about the extent
0:16:38 > 0:16:43to which the international tax system should allow certain
0:16:43 > 0:16:46behaviours to be undertaken with this huge data dump, the way it has
0:16:46 > 0:16:52been presented, it can be unclear as to what is just the way the
0:16:52 > 0:16:56international financial system works. And the way it probably
0:16:56 > 0:16:59should work, versus other things which are a bit more aggressive and,
0:16:59 > 0:17:05in some cases, invasive. Journalists have spent months
0:17:05 > 0:17:10unravelling the Paradise papers, for politicians and taxpayers, on
0:17:10 > 0:17:21picking the indications could take far longer. -- some cases, evasive.
0:17:21 > 0:17:23I am joined now by Labour MP Peter Dowd who is
0:17:23 > 0:17:25Shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury, tax
0:17:25 > 0:17:27lawyer Fionnuala Lynch and Anthony Travers the Chairman
0:17:27 > 0:17:28of Cayman Stock Exchange.
0:17:28 > 0:17:31Peter, absolutely nothing illegal about tax havens, no question people
0:17:31 > 0:17:36go into them to do wrong.It's a question that has been raised in the
0:17:36 > 0:17:42piece about ethics and morality. At the end of the day, if an avoidance
0:17:42 > 0:17:47scams, call it what you will, Dodge, is going on, the government is
0:17:47 > 0:17:55perfectly entitled, if you want, to close it.Let's be clear, OK, there
0:17:55 > 0:17:59is secrecy, it isn't advantageous tax position, but actually lots of
0:17:59 > 0:18:05other people do this with pension funds, put money into tax havens.
0:18:05 > 0:18:10Look, the bottom line with this one is that public services are under
0:18:10 > 0:18:15enormous strain. The government is entitled to say if it believes that
0:18:15 > 0:18:20a tax avoidance scheme is not appropriate, it is perfectly
0:18:20 > 0:18:24entitled to close it down. That is what will happen. But with this we
0:18:24 > 0:18:28are seeing tax avoidance on an industrial scale. And tax avoidance
0:18:28 > 0:18:34of billions of pounds a year affecting public services.Anthony,
0:18:34 > 0:18:38we are seeing tax avoidance on a grand scale, not just in the Cayman
0:18:38 > 0:18:40Islands but other British territories, it's true, it's tax
0:18:40 > 0:18:46avoidance, isn't it?No.You might see it as advantageous planning, but
0:18:46 > 0:18:50it is avoidance.No, the avoidance you are talking about which runs
0:18:50 > 0:18:56into the billions of dollars is undertaken by Apple, Google, and
0:18:56 > 0:19:00Starbucks. That takes advantage of double tax treaty networks within
0:19:00 > 0:19:05Europe which don't work.There are lots of other companies that are not
0:19:05 > 0:19:09Apple, Google, and so forth, that take advantage of the tax regime in
0:19:09 > 0:19:19Cayman, Bermuda, and so forth, these are not Google, these are not Apple.
0:19:19 > 0:19:24Companies that invest in the Cayman Islands do this to ensure
0:19:24 > 0:19:27jurisdictions whether from market and investments. They pay 100% of
0:19:27 > 0:19:33the tax due in those jurisdictions. The tax is distributed to their
0:19:33 > 0:19:40investors by virtue of the common reporting standards... The recipient
0:19:40 > 0:19:44of dividends, from those Cayman companies pay tax in accordance with
0:19:44 > 0:19:49the jurisdictions of that domicile. There is no tax edge to investing in
0:19:49 > 0:19:53the Cayman Islands.Why would you do it, then? Fact is, lots of people do
0:19:53 > 0:19:57it because they don't have to pay tax and there is a great deal of
0:19:57 > 0:20:02secrecy to be had.You don't have secrecy whatsoever. You haven't
0:20:02 > 0:20:07listened. There is secrecy insofar as journalists may be concerned, but
0:20:07 > 0:20:13there is no secrecy in terms of tax authorities or law enforcement. They
0:20:13 > 0:20:17can ascertain the precise position with regards any company in any
0:20:17 > 0:20:23overseas territory, Cayman Islands, Bermuda, included.You are one of
0:20:23 > 0:20:28the experts. Where is your position lying on the ethics of this, and
0:20:28 > 0:20:34whether or not people can find out what has been footwear, what
0:20:34 > 0:20:44company, in any of these territories? -- put where.There is
0:20:44 > 0:20:48wide ranging and effective reporting obligations. We have the obligation
0:20:48 > 0:20:52of the common reporting standard which now means that if you have an
0:20:52 > 0:20:56account, say, in the Cayman Islands, then the Cayman Islands authorities
0:20:56 > 0:21:00automatically have to give that information. If it is a UK holder of
0:21:00 > 0:21:07that account, to the UK authorities. And likewise, if you have, say, a UK
0:21:07 > 0:21:12individual that has another account in Italy, the Italian authorities
0:21:12 > 0:21:16then exchange that information. So there is now an automatic exchange
0:21:16 > 0:21:22of information. That introduced by the OECD. You then have another
0:21:22 > 0:21:25organisation, which was introduced to achieve the same thing the US
0:21:25 > 0:21:32taxpayers. So US individuals who have accounts...So there wasn't a
0:21:32 > 0:21:38problem?There is just more exchange of information.So actually the
0:21:38 > 0:21:43reporting is better than it used to be?The transparency that we've
0:21:43 > 0:21:49asked for from the government, which they refused, what does that say?
0:21:49 > 0:21:51What's wrong with transparency, accountability, what's wrong with
0:21:51 > 0:21:57having systematic plans? And we the British taxpayer knowing about that?
0:21:57 > 0:22:02If this is all hunky-dory, there is no problems, why do we have these
0:22:02 > 0:22:08Paradise papers, come on, the implications...Nobody has been
0:22:08 > 0:22:11prosecuted as a result of the Panama papers.
0:22:11 > 0:22:18INAUDIBLE Whether they have been robust enough
0:22:18 > 0:22:23is a different kettle of fish.What have we had from the Panama papers
0:22:23 > 0:22:28in terms of actual convictions in the UK for anything at all involving
0:22:28 > 0:22:32tax evasion or avoidance? Nothing. Nothing statistically relevant. The
0:22:32 > 0:22:38Panama papers are fake news. This new leak from Bermuda is fake news.
0:22:38 > 0:22:41Same to the extent it is a criminal endeavour to hack people's computers
0:22:41 > 0:22:46and these journalists should be imprisoned.Tell me what you think
0:22:46 > 0:22:53morally.Let me say that we advise very major corporations. If you are
0:22:53 > 0:22:58saying that tax should be paid on the basis of the moral is, as they
0:22:58 > 0:23:01are understood in the Houses of Parliament at the moment, I would
0:23:01 > 0:23:03have great difficulty in ascertaining what the proper test
0:23:03 > 0:23:11should be. What tax is paid on is the law. We can remind Ms Hodge that
0:23:11 > 0:23:17her government were in power from 1997 to 2010. If they really did not
0:23:17 > 0:23:20like the International tax treaties which existed in Europe, which
0:23:20 > 0:23:25enabled tax avoidance in Europe by the major US corporate, they should
0:23:25 > 0:23:28have changed those treaties whilst they had the majority in the Houses
0:23:28 > 0:23:32of Parliament.Briefly, let's look at one simple thing, developing
0:23:32 > 0:23:35countries worried about capital flight, money finding its way into
0:23:35 > 0:23:41tax havens. Don't you even have a pang about that?I don't know what
0:23:41 > 0:23:47the expression tax haven means. Nor do you.Tax shelter.You are talking
0:23:47 > 0:23:53about offshore financial centres. They have practices to the highest
0:23:53 > 0:23:57standards. Infinitely higher than what exists in the US.Speaks
0:23:57 > 0:24:01volumes about the complacency.Thank you very much.
0:24:01 > 0:24:02Onto other stories now.
0:24:02 > 0:24:05After a weekend of more allegations of sexual misconduct,
0:24:05 > 0:24:07Conservative, Labour and SNP - the latter led to the resignation
0:24:07 > 0:24:10of Scotland's Children's Minister - the tally of investigations reads
0:24:10 > 0:24:13like this - Ten MPs are facing questions, one Cabinet Minister has
0:24:13 > 0:24:19resigned and another is the subject of a Cabinet Office Inquiry.
0:24:19 > 0:24:22Theresa May met other Westminster leaders today to discuss the scandal
0:24:22 > 0:24:23and afterwards announced a new grievance procedure
0:24:23 > 0:24:30for parliamentary staff.
0:24:30 > 0:24:33It was also a very eventful day for the government.
0:24:33 > 0:24:36I'm joined by Chris Cook.
0:24:36 > 0:24:42A lot has been going on.We were surprised to hear that that meeting
0:24:42 > 0:24:46about the sexual harassment issue wasn't going to be the most
0:24:46 > 0:24:51important thing. The most important thing is about an Iranian Briton who
0:24:51 > 0:24:55is currently in prison in Iran. She was arrested last year at Tehran
0:24:55 > 0:25:01airport. She is being held on a charge of trying to throw over the
0:25:01 > 0:25:05government, of sedition. She denies the allegations. She says she was
0:25:05 > 0:25:08there to visit family. Last week Boris Johnson told the foreign
0:25:08 > 0:25:14affairs select committee that, when I look at what she was doing, she
0:25:14 > 0:25:17was simply teaching people journalism, as I understand it.
0:25:17 > 0:25:22Thing is, that isn't what she said in court in Iran, and the rainy and
0:25:22 > 0:25:26high Council of human rights said over the weekend that Mr Johnson's,
0:25:26 > 0:25:30to shed new light on what she had been doing. -- Arabian high Council.
0:25:30 > 0:25:37It shows she was there for something other than a holiday. They have
0:25:37 > 0:25:42urged the Foreign Office to correct this mistake.What has Boris Johnson
0:25:42 > 0:25:46said?We have this fudgy statement saying the UK is doing all it can to
0:25:46 > 0:25:50secure her release. And he will be calling the Iranian Foreign Minister
0:25:50 > 0:25:54to make it clear.That isn't what he meant. As he apologised to the
0:25:54 > 0:26:03family?Not as far as we know.This isn't just about Boris Johnson. Mrs
0:26:03 > 0:26:07Patel has been doing something, as well.Last week we learned she had
0:26:07 > 0:26:12taken time out of her holiday in Israel to meet a centrist
0:26:12 > 0:26:15politician. This was odd because she hadn't told the Foreign Office she
0:26:15 > 0:26:19was doing it. Bluntly, there are rules in place saying ministers
0:26:19 > 0:26:22should tell the Foreign Office what they are doing so we don't have more
0:26:22 > 0:26:28than one foreign policy at a time. She told the Guardian last week,
0:26:28 > 0:26:30Boris knew about the visit, the point is the Foreign Office knew
0:26:30 > 0:26:35about this, Boris knew about the trip. She has had to put out a
0:26:35 > 0:26:39statement today saying, this quote may have given the impression that
0:26:39 > 0:26:43the Secretary of State had informed the Foreign Secretary about the
0:26:43 > 0:26:45visit in advance. The Secretary of State would like to clarify that
0:26:45 > 0:26:50this was not the case. There is a second quote, she was asked about
0:26:50 > 0:26:56whether she only met that Minister. She said, the stuff that is all
0:26:56 > 0:26:59there, that is it, as far as I am concerned. Meaning she didn't meet
0:26:59 > 0:27:06anybody else. But there has to be another statement. This may imply
0:27:06 > 0:27:11that this was the only meeting taking place. We know that isn't
0:27:11 > 0:27:15true, including visiting Benjamin Netanyahu.She didn't have any civil
0:27:15 > 0:27:19servant with her. She didn't tell the Prime Minister she was going.
0:27:19 > 0:27:22She didn't tell the Foreign Secretary. And she still has a job.
0:27:22 > 0:27:29That's right.Why?You can take this and everything else going on in
0:27:29 > 0:27:33Westminster as a sign of Theresa May's fundamental weakness. This
0:27:33 > 0:27:39isn't a strong PM standing by her ministers. She's paralysed on all
0:27:39 > 0:27:44fronts and another reshuffle is not what she needs.Thanks very much.
0:27:44 > 0:27:47It is hard to imagine the extent of the convulsion
0:27:47 > 0:27:48at the weekend in Saudi Arabia.
0:27:48 > 0:27:51The kingdom's thirty two year old Crown Prince Mohammad bin Salman
0:27:51 > 0:27:53who became the heir apparent this year , has carried out
0:27:53 > 0:27:56a sweeping royal purge, ostensibly an anti corruption drive,
0:27:56 > 0:27:57including billionaire Prince Al-Waleed bin Talal,
0:27:57 > 0:28:02and ten other princes - one the chief of the national guard.
0:28:02 > 0:28:04It's also being described as a move to consolidate his power
0:28:04 > 0:28:06by eliminating rivals opposed to his social and economic
0:28:06 > 0:28:10reforms plans and eventual succession as king.
0:28:10 > 0:28:12The arrests and ministerial changes amount to a fundamental
0:28:12 > 0:28:22transformation of the state as it has existed since the 1960s.
0:28:23 > 0:28:25Mike Thompson reports.
0:28:28 > 0:28:31Few outside Saudi Arabia had heard of Prince Mohammed bin Salman
0:28:31 > 0:28:33before his father became king in January 2015.
0:28:33 > 0:28:36Since then, the 32-year-old has become the most powerful man
0:28:36 > 0:28:39in the world's biggest oil exporting nation.
0:28:39 > 0:28:41After being named first in line to the throne six
0:28:41 > 0:28:46months ago by his father, King Salman.
0:28:46 > 0:28:48The Prince's rise has been rapid, and his policies
0:28:48 > 0:28:51and methods controversial.
0:28:51 > 0:28:54Never more so than on Saturday night when under his orders 11 Princes,
0:28:54 > 0:29:01former ministers, and dozens of former ministers, were arrested.
0:29:01 > 0:29:02Among those previously powerful and untouchable figures
0:29:02 > 0:29:05was billionaire Al-Waleed bin Talal, co-owner of London's Savoy Hotel,
0:29:05 > 0:29:15and one of the wealthiest men in the world.
0:29:16 > 0:29:19Those arrested are now thought to be being held in the luxury
0:29:19 > 0:29:25Ritz Carlton hotel in Riyadh.
0:29:25 > 0:29:31Saturday's crackdown follows the arrests in September
0:29:31 > 0:29:33by balaclavad security officials of a range of clerics,
0:29:33 > 0:29:35academics, and businessmen.
0:29:35 > 0:29:37Many view the latest arrests as little more than a brazen attempt
0:29:37 > 0:29:40to weed out dissent and political rivals of the ambitious
0:29:40 > 0:29:41heir to the throne.
0:29:41 > 0:29:46This amid speculation that King Salman may soon abdicate.
0:29:46 > 0:29:49Early on Saturday evening, the Crown prince, whose first move
0:29:49 > 0:29:51on becoming defence minister was to launch its country's
0:29:51 > 0:29:52military campaign in Yemen, removed the Minister
0:29:52 > 0:29:55of the National Guard, Prince Miteb, who had been regarded as a potential
0:29:55 > 0:30:02rival to the throne.
0:30:02 > 0:30:05But his supporters argue that such measures are needed to push
0:30:05 > 0:30:08through austerity reforms and help diversify the economy of this
0:30:08 > 0:30:13oil dependent nation.
0:30:13 > 0:30:15The Crown Prince recently took charge of the country's newly
0:30:15 > 0:30:17created anti-corruption committee, adding to his long list
0:30:17 > 0:30:25of powerful posts.
0:30:25 > 0:30:29It's not yet clear just how far he will go to silence his remaining
0:30:29 > 0:30:31critics, or whether self interest, rather than national interest,
0:30:31 > 0:30:40is determining his policies.
0:30:40 > 0:30:45Joining me now in the studio is Frank gardener our Security
0:30:45 > 0:30:49Correspondent. First of all, for the Crown Prince to act so quickly over
0:30:49 > 0:30:53the weekend and decisively, he must have had strong backers.For a
0:30:53 > 0:30:58start, he's got his father, the king, who is the absolute ruler in
0:30:58 > 0:31:03Saudi Arabia. But the king is 81. He's not in good health. Essentially
0:31:03 > 0:31:06he has devolved a huge amount of power to his favourite son, the man
0:31:06 > 0:31:16you've seen there. He's got another backer, President Trump. Not just
0:31:16 > 0:31:20President Trump, but Jarrod Kushner, who was in Riyadh a few days ago. I
0:31:20 > 0:31:25covered the Trump visit there in May. It was extraordinary mood music
0:31:25 > 0:31:28between the White House and the house of Saud. They got on
0:31:28 > 0:31:33incredibly well. I think President Trump views the Crown Prince almost
0:31:33 > 0:31:37as a young Donald Trump. He's not afraid to court controversy, bold
0:31:37 > 0:31:44moves, doesn't mind how many enemies he gathers.We know that some of
0:31:44 > 0:31:50them, the most powerful Prince he is apparently holed up with the other
0:31:50 > 0:31:56ten Princes at the Savoy. What is going to happen to them.Nobody is
0:31:56 > 0:31:59suggesting capital punishment. The Saudi leadership has made it clear
0:31:59 > 0:32:03that nobody is above the law. That their Princely background will not
0:32:03 > 0:32:07necessarily save them from the law. The charges haven't been made
0:32:07 > 0:32:11precisely public. We know they're accused of abuse of power,
0:32:11 > 0:32:15corruption, bribery etc. But Saudi law is very opaque. There is no
0:32:15 > 0:32:19constitution. There's no judicial process. It's left up to judges.
0:32:19 > 0:32:25Essentially this is a political case rather than a judicial one.We know
0:32:25 > 0:32:28already that the Crown Prince wants to make various reforms, you know,
0:32:28 > 0:32:34female driving and so forth. But 70% of the country is under 30. Is it a
0:32:34 > 0:32:38kind of powder keg in a sense that he had to do something?He did. I
0:32:38 > 0:32:42think probably the way to look at this is let's look at it as a
0:32:42 > 0:32:47spectrum. If you're optimistic, a fan of the Crown Prince, as many
0:32:47 > 0:32:51young Saudis r, you would say, he sees the future, hose a visionary,
0:32:51 > 0:32:54he knows they can't go on in the way they have been. Something's got to
0:32:54 > 0:32:59change. They've got to wean themselves off the way they've been
0:32:59 > 0:33:03dependent on oil income, find proper jobs. Pessimists would say he is
0:33:03 > 0:33:05melting the glue that holds the country together and that's a risky
0:33:05 > 0:33:11thing to do.There's no sign of any flowering of democracy. This is a
0:33:11 > 0:33:15case of actually collecting power unto himself.It is. Again, to try
0:33:15 > 0:33:18and give him the benefit of the doubt, it's in order to push through
0:33:18 > 0:33:22the reforms he wants. This man has already got massive power. He
0:33:22 > 0:33:25controls the military, the economy, the royal court, foreign policy. You
0:33:25 > 0:33:31name it, it's in his hands.What are the implications for the region?
0:33:31 > 0:33:36Providing he can maintain the loyalty of the tribes, the families,
0:33:36 > 0:33:40the middle classes, the business community and that's a big if right
0:33:40 > 0:33:44now, but if he can keep that under control, then he could go down in
0:33:44 > 0:33:50history as the man who saved Saudi Arabia from an uncertain future. But
0:33:50 > 0:33:55his detractors are saying that he is going on a bold and risky path that
0:33:55 > 0:34:00is really, really dangerous for that country.Frank, thanks very much.
0:34:00 > 0:34:03The Trump presidency has been very special for one man.
0:34:03 > 0:34:05Alec Baldwin's acting career took a handbrake turn when Donald Trump
0:34:05 > 0:34:08entered the frame as a presidential candidate, and now for Trump's arch
0:34:08 > 0:34:10impressionist and nemesis, it is the gift which keeps
0:34:10 > 0:34:12on giving.
0:34:12 > 0:34:15He got an Emmy for his portrayal of the Donald
0:34:15 > 0:34:17and Saturday Night Live, and now he has a new book
0:34:17 > 0:34:19out with the American novelist Kurt Anderson,
0:34:19 > 0:34:21in a further parody, called "You Can't spell
0:34:21 > 0:34:25America without me."
0:34:25 > 0:34:27In a broadcast exclusive, our North America correspondent
0:34:27 > 0:34:29Nick Bryant talks to Alec Baldwin about playing Trump,
0:34:29 > 0:34:35satire and the present state of the Hollywood industry.
0:34:35 > 0:34:38I don't know if you know this, but you're in an island
0:34:38 > 0:34:41in the water, the ocean water, big ocean, with fishes and bubbles
0:34:41 > 0:34:45and turtles that bite.
0:34:45 > 0:34:48We want to help you but we have to take care of America first.
0:34:48 > 0:34:54Wait, you do know we are a US territory, didn't you?
0:34:54 > 0:35:01LAUGHTERI mean, I do, but not many people know that, no.
0:35:01 > 0:35:05With the goal was to try to find a very small menu of tricks
0:35:05 > 0:35:09that you can stick to, and you wouldn't lose very easily.
0:35:09 > 0:35:14You get the left eyebrow up, you get the mouth out,
0:35:14 > 0:35:16as far as you can, and get the hands going.
0:35:16 > 0:35:18And there are words, too, that, gina's a big one.
0:35:18 > 0:35:20-- China's a big one.
0:35:20 > 0:35:22We played with that.
0:35:22 > 0:35:24We almost made up our own lexicon with ad-Trumps.
0:35:24 > 0:35:31You know, so, gina.
0:35:31 > 0:35:34It would terrify them but when I got to gina.
0:35:34 > 0:35:36Trump was always someone who was digging for a stronger word
0:35:36 > 0:35:38in his speech that he would never find.
0:35:38 > 0:35:41So he would always fall back on the same three words,
0:35:41 > 0:35:45he would say this new tax plan, is a tax plan, I'm very proud of,
0:35:45 > 0:35:47and I think the American people are going to find it's really,
0:35:47 > 0:35:50really a great tax plan, just a great tax plan, you know?
0:35:50 > 0:35:52There is a laziness to this.
0:35:52 > 0:35:54CHUCKLESHis vocabulary.
0:35:54 > 0:35:57But, but, all of that aside, I think we're in another place now,
0:35:57 > 0:36:00which is that, what's Trump going to do now that the wagons
0:36:00 > 0:36:03appear to be circling?
0:36:03 > 0:36:06When Donald Trump won, unexpectedly, was there any part of you,
0:36:06 > 0:36:08the professional part of you, that thought, great,
0:36:08 > 0:36:13I get to do Donald Trump again?
0:36:13 > 0:36:16No, not at all.
0:36:16 > 0:36:19The thing I'm doing, that I think people enjoy to some degree,
0:36:19 > 0:36:22is channelling their frustrations.
0:36:22 > 0:36:25It's been a year since he won, and people have been very,
0:36:25 > 0:36:27very confused and frustrated.
0:36:27 > 0:36:30And if this show we've done has helped them manage those
0:36:30 > 0:36:33feelings in some way then I think it's worthwhile.
0:36:33 > 0:36:36Is there a downside to the comedy?
0:36:36 > 0:36:39There are many people who would regard Donald Trump
0:36:39 > 0:36:41is an object of fear, and you have made him
0:36:41 > 0:36:44an object of fun.
0:36:44 > 0:36:47Does that come in its own way, have a normalising effect?
0:36:47 > 0:36:49People have said that.
0:36:49 > 0:36:50I said that myself.
0:36:50 > 0:36:54Unprompted by other people.
0:36:54 > 0:36:57The critical mass of Americans bought this nonsense that Trump
0:36:57 > 0:37:00is this crack go-getter executive you see on some stupid reality show.
0:37:00 > 0:37:06And this confluence of things came together
0:37:06 > 0:37:08of which the portrayal by SNL, I think, had very little
0:37:08 > 0:37:11to do with that at all.
0:37:11 > 0:37:13I don't think anybody in this country uses SNL,
0:37:13 > 0:37:15or any late night comedy, I don't think that Trevor Noah
0:37:15 > 0:37:21or Samantha Bee, or John Oliver, or any of the late night host of TV
0:37:21 > 0:37:27shows have any real influence on the political process, I doubt.
0:37:27 > 0:37:28Let's talk about the book.
0:37:28 > 0:37:31You Can't Spell America Without Me.
0:37:31 > 0:37:34It's a fake memoir in this age of fake news, but some people
0:37:34 > 0:37:37will read this and they'll think, this is the sort of stuff I read
0:37:37 > 0:37:40in the New York Times everyday.
0:37:40 > 0:37:42Yes, well, Kurt Andersen is a great gift.
0:37:42 > 0:37:44Kurt is a great writer.
0:37:44 > 0:37:45He's your co-author?
0:37:45 > 0:37:49This is Kurt's take on Trump attempting to be
0:37:49 > 0:37:52reflective and introspective.
0:37:52 > 0:37:55Now, Trump is one of the least reflective and introspective men
0:37:55 > 0:37:57that has ever breathed oxygen in human history, and throughout
0:37:57 > 0:38:00the book you see that he's as petty and as bitter as Trump really
0:38:00 > 0:38:07is all the time in real life, but in this really clever way...
0:38:07 > 0:38:09This is an extraordinary moment for America.
0:38:09 > 0:38:11This is an extraordinary moment for Hollywood given what has
0:38:11 > 0:38:12happened with Harvey Weinsten.
0:38:12 > 0:38:15Right.
0:38:15 > 0:38:17I wonder how that impacted the industry, impacted you.
0:38:17 > 0:38:19I know you have spoken very honestly recently about this.
0:38:19 > 0:38:22You are going to see a lot of changes in this business.
0:38:22 > 0:38:25You are going to see a lot of people where...
0:38:25 > 0:38:28You're not going to see an unsupervised, unmonitored casting
0:38:28 > 0:38:33session in this business for quite some time to come.
0:38:33 > 0:38:35I hope that people who, prior to now, who took
0:38:35 > 0:38:37settlement money, you know, Rose McGowan took settlement money
0:38:37 > 0:38:44from Harvey Weinsten, she kept quiet for 20 years.
0:38:44 > 0:38:46I perfectly understand that, because she was probably
0:38:46 > 0:38:49led to believe that's what in your interest career-wise.
0:38:49 > 0:38:51But I hope that we continue along that path.
0:38:51 > 0:38:54And I hope that people understand that what's going on is not
0:38:54 > 0:39:02exclusive to our business.
0:39:02 > 0:39:04That the entertainment business does not have a greater percentage
0:39:04 > 0:39:06of people being sexually assaulted in the workplace.
0:39:06 > 0:39:09It's the same in the military, it's the same on Wall Street,
0:39:09 > 0:39:13it's the same in Washington, everywhere you go, this
0:39:13 > 0:39:15is a problem culturally, not confined to the entertainment
0:39:15 > 0:39:18business, what I think unfortunately people seem to have that
0:39:18 > 0:39:23impression right now.
0:39:23 > 0:39:27Has it been a moment of personal introspection?
0:39:27 > 0:39:29I bullied women before, meaning, if I raised my voice
0:39:29 > 0:39:31to my wife, that's bullying.
0:39:31 > 0:39:35You know, when a guy tries to get, never forget my daughter said to me
0:39:35 > 0:39:38once, my daughter Ireland, when I was married to her mother,
0:39:38 > 0:39:41and I said, are you telling me that your mother doesn't yell
0:39:41 > 0:39:43at you, at all?
0:39:43 > 0:39:45You know, we were having this, like, pretty intense conversation
0:39:45 > 0:39:46when she was younger.
0:39:46 > 0:39:49She said, no, my mother yells at me ten times more
0:39:49 > 0:39:50than you do, she said.
0:39:50 > 0:39:53But she said when you do it it's different.
0:39:53 > 0:39:56And I realised that for men that is a condition
0:39:56 > 0:40:00you have to live with.
0:40:00 > 0:40:03There is a fear involved if you get angry, if you get upset,
0:40:03 > 0:40:06if you are being forceful, and I have a minimum
0:40:06 > 0:40:07of that in my life.
0:40:07 > 0:40:10Meaning that the women in my life are not running around in fear that
0:40:10 > 0:40:12I am going to do something.
0:40:12 > 0:40:15But what I've realised even more importantly is that I have lived
0:40:15 > 0:40:17in a male dominated society most of my life.
0:40:17 > 0:40:19The director's a guy, the President's a guy,
0:40:19 > 0:40:21the head of the company is a guy.
0:40:21 > 0:40:24I've been in rooms where a woman's spoke, and I've gone, yeah,
0:40:24 > 0:40:26that's great, Susan, and then I turned to
0:40:26 > 0:40:28the guy who's in charge, and I was kind of dismissive of,
0:40:28 > 0:40:31not even so much dismissive of a woman, I just elevated men,
0:40:31 > 0:40:33because men were always in control in my life.
0:40:33 > 0:40:37Men have always been in control.
0:40:37 > 0:40:39And men were in charge of everything in my lifetime.
0:40:39 > 0:40:44And hopefully we're going to see that change, as well.
0:40:44 > 0:40:48Time for the front pages. The Guardian, Lewis Hamilton avoided
0:40:48 > 0:40:56taxes on 16. 5 million jet. The racing driver amongst dozens of
0:40:56 > 0:40:59clients helped by the firm Appleby. They rented their own jets from
0:40:59 > 0:41:05themselves. The Sun have the story about Mrs Brown's ploys it says. Top
0:41:05 > 0:41:12comedy stars funnel £2 million into a tax dodge scheme. Then timely, on
0:41:12 > 0:41:19the Mirror, that the tax dodge parasites, Lewis Hamilton's 3. 3
0:41:19 > 0:41:24million VAT back on his jet. Apple side steps billions with Channel
0:41:24 > 0:41:29Islands tax route and three stars of Mrs Brown's boys invested £2 million
0:41:29 > 0:41:32offshore. More on the Paradise Papers tomorrow. That's all we have
0:41:32 > 0:41:38time for. Evan is here then. Until then, good night.