09/11/2017

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0:00:05 > 0:00:07A new International Development Secretary with the same Brexit

0:00:07 > 0:00:08views as the old one.

0:00:08 > 0:00:12A Brexiteer Foreign Secretary safe despite careless,

0:00:12 > 0:00:14dangerous talk that might have doubled a British woman's

0:00:14 > 0:00:16prison sentence in Iran.

0:00:16 > 0:00:20Is Theresa May's grip on government seen too much through a Brexit lens?

0:00:20 > 0:00:23We'll hear the view of Britain from Paris and ask the former

0:00:23 > 0:00:30Deputy Chairman of the Tory Party where they go from here.

0:00:30 > 0:00:33It was one of the most toxic relationships ever in politics.

0:00:33 > 0:00:35But in an interview to mark his memoirs,

0:00:35 > 0:00:38Gordon Brown insists their rows were all about policy

0:00:38 > 0:00:39and had nothing to do with personal ambition.

0:00:39 > 0:00:44I agreed that I would take control of economic policy,

0:00:44 > 0:00:47and he said he would step down in the second term.

0:00:47 > 0:00:49It's as simple as that, and that of course didn't happen.

0:00:49 > 0:00:50Tilting at Donald Trump.

0:00:50 > 0:00:52As the President keeps his promise

0:00:52 > 0:00:54to blow away environmental restraint, the US states

0:00:54 > 0:00:57which are fighting back.

0:00:57 > 0:00:59The outcome of this contest will determine what the world's

0:00:59 > 0:01:07going to look like over the next 10, 20 and 30 years.

0:01:07 > 0:01:09And the set awaits Russia Today's new television star,

0:01:09 > 0:01:12the former First Minister of Scotland, Alex Salmond.

0:01:12 > 0:01:22I'll be asking him if Vladimir Putin will be calling the shots.

0:01:25 > 0:01:28Good evening.

0:01:28 > 0:01:30The Prime Minister may have her game face on

0:01:30 > 0:01:32and a new waxwork projecting resolve at Madame Tussauds.

0:01:32 > 0:01:35But is she in danger of having to take literally every decision

0:01:35 > 0:01:39while looking through the foggy lens of Brexit?

0:01:39 > 0:01:41In Brussels today, where Brexit negotiations resumed,

0:01:41 > 0:01:43the view was yes - everything in Britain

0:01:43 > 0:01:45is about Brexit.

0:01:45 > 0:01:49The fact that Theresa May has made a simple reshuffle and parachuted

0:01:49 > 0:01:51Brexiteer Penny Mordaunt

0:01:51 > 0:01:55into the space left by Brexiteer Priti Patel is not apparently

0:01:55 > 0:01:57being seen as "firm or decisive"

0:01:57 > 0:02:01or any of the adjectives associated with command of government.

0:02:01 > 0:02:04So is everything being seen through the lens of Brexit?

0:02:04 > 0:02:05Is the Foreign Secretary,

0:02:05 > 0:02:08Boris Johnson, whose foot in mouth remarks and equally stumbling

0:02:08 > 0:02:12retraction over Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe, which may

0:02:12 > 0:02:15lengthen her jail sentence, safer than he would be otherwise?

0:02:15 > 0:02:22To lose another big Brexiteer and three Cabinet ministers

0:02:22 > 0:02:25in the space of a week might haul Theresa May's government

0:02:25 > 0:02:26below the waterline.

0:02:26 > 0:02:29Here's Nick Watt.

0:02:29 > 0:02:32A great partnership...

0:02:32 > 0:02:33Whichever way you look in British politics today,

0:02:33 > 0:02:43Brexit looks back at you from every angle.

0:02:45 > 0:02:47A Brexit-supporting cabinet minister resigns, and so a Brexit-supporting

0:02:47 > 0:02:48replacement is called up.

0:02:48 > 0:02:54Theresa May has been adopting a cautious

0:02:54 > 0:02:55approach in her many and enforced reshuffles,

0:02:55 > 0:02:57ensuring that she does not upset

0:02:57 > 0:03:00the delicate balance between Brexiteers and

0:03:00 > 0:03:03Remainers around the Cabinet table because overall,

0:03:03 > 0:03:06she is performing a delicate balancing act in holding

0:03:06 > 0:03:06her divided party together.

0:03:06 > 0:03:08Friends of Priti Patel told me, for example,

0:03:08 > 0:03:11that the Prime Minister took her time in firing the former cabinet

0:03:11 > 0:03:14minister because she did not want to upset such a prominent Brexit

0:03:14 > 0:03:15supporter.

0:03:15 > 0:03:23So Theresa May knows that from the handling of her ministers

0:03:23 > 0:03:25to almost every policy decision she makes,

0:03:25 > 0:03:29Brexit hangs over everything.

0:03:29 > 0:03:33And add in a dose of bad luck.

0:03:33 > 0:03:35Who could have seen the butterfly effect from the other side

0:03:35 > 0:03:40of the Atlantic

0:03:40 > 0:03:46of the Harvey Weinstein allegations here in Westminster?

0:03:46 > 0:03:47And this fundamental question arises -

0:03:47 > 0:03:50is Theresa May a member of that select group of prime ministers

0:03:50 > 0:03:51who find themselves controlled by events

0:03:51 > 0:03:53rather than actually shaping events?

0:03:53 > 0:03:56Top of the list is Anthony Eden, who was broken by the Suez crisis.

0:03:56 > 0:04:00Like me or loathe me, don't bind my hands.

0:04:00 > 0:04:03Four decades later, John Major was paralysed by Europe.

0:04:03 > 0:04:04Nothing has changed.

0:04:05 > 0:04:07Nothing has changed.

0:04:07 > 0:04:10And then there is Theresa May, who commanded the political

0:04:10 > 0:04:13landscape until that election.

0:04:13 > 0:04:16A critic of Theresa May believes there

0:04:16 > 0:04:19is scope for her to set her own agenda.

0:04:19 > 0:04:24I don't think it needs to be quite as paralysed as it appears to be.

0:04:24 > 0:04:28I think there are things that need to be done.

0:04:28 > 0:04:31I think there is an opportunity in the housing field

0:04:31 > 0:04:34which requires action.

0:04:34 > 0:04:37I think the question of an industrial strategy,

0:04:37 > 0:04:39on which I have just produced a pamphlet,

0:04:39 > 0:04:43gives very considerable opportunities to meet urgent demands

0:04:43 > 0:04:45of self interest for this country,

0:04:45 > 0:04:48and it is particularly important in the Brexit context to have an

0:04:48 > 0:04:50industrial strategy.

0:04:50 > 0:04:55Ultimately, Lord Heseltine fears the Prime Minister may be

0:04:55 > 0:04:57unable to secure a Brexit deal acceptable to his wing of

0:04:57 > 0:04:59the party.

0:04:59 > 0:05:02And the man who made his name attacking socialism...

0:05:02 > 0:05:04The red flag has never flown throughout these

0:05:04 > 0:05:07islands yet, nor for a thousand years...

0:05:07 > 0:05:10..Believes his supporters may face a painful dilemma about how to

0:05:10 > 0:05:14vote at the next general election.

0:05:14 > 0:05:20I don't have a vote, which is a copout I accepted once,

0:05:20 > 0:05:22but I know friends of mine who certainly are Conservative

0:05:22 > 0:05:29voters who are agonising over exactly that dilemma.

0:05:29 > 0:05:31And it is an irony.

0:05:31 > 0:05:36You made your name in the 1970s campaigning against everything

0:05:36 > 0:05:39Jeremy Corbyn believes in, and yet he may, on this

0:05:39 > 0:05:40fundamental question of Britain's future,

0:05:40 > 0:05:41embody your views more than your party.

0:05:41 > 0:05:47That's a pretty horrific thought.

0:05:47 > 0:05:57A horrific thought, but an accurate, sensible thought?

0:06:00 > 0:06:03There is no doubt at all that a scenario that if, as I think,

0:06:03 > 0:06:06the public opinion will move and the Labour Party moves,

0:06:06 > 0:06:09there could be a situation where the only people left in favour

0:06:09 > 0:06:11of Brexit are the right wing of the Conservative Party.

0:06:11 > 0:06:13And that will produce very difficult, traumatic

0:06:13 > 0:06:15challenges for voters in a general election.

0:06:15 > 0:06:19One loyalist says, don't write off this Prime Minister.

0:06:19 > 0:06:22I would say the government are holding together well.

0:06:22 > 0:06:25No votes have been lost in the House of Commons on primary legislation.

0:06:25 > 0:06:26Nobody thought that was possible.

0:06:26 > 0:06:30Jeremy Corbyn was scampering around back in June and July

0:06:30 > 0:06:32and August, preparing for an autumn general election.

0:06:32 > 0:06:35Well, it's very clear there's not going to be a general

0:06:35 > 0:06:37election this autumn, there's not going to be

0:06:37 > 0:06:38a general election until 2022.

0:06:38 > 0:06:41So the Prime Minister has done a great job steadying the ship

0:06:41 > 0:06:42in difficult circumstances,

0:06:42 > 0:06:45rising to meet the challenge of the times and dealing

0:06:45 > 0:06:52with it all in a very calm, professional manner.

0:06:52 > 0:06:55Europe, the ever-dominant issue in our national life, will define

0:06:55 > 0:06:56Theresa May's premiership.

0:06:56 > 0:07:01She will be hoping she is not drowned by it.

0:07:01 > 0:07:06Nick Watt is with me.

0:07:06 > 0:07:11You have more news on Brexit?Yes, there is an interesting intervention

0:07:11 > 0:07:14tomorrow by Lord Coe, the former head of the Foreign Office who is

0:07:14 > 0:07:17the official who wrote Article 50, the process to take is outside the

0:07:17 > 0:07:26EU. He says this can be revoked by the UK at any point within the

0:07:26 > 0:07:29two-year time frame. He is saying it was a voluntary agreement to give

0:07:29 > 0:07:34member states the confidence that they could leave. Therefore, if we

0:07:34 > 0:07:38want to revoke it, we could. He is going to say we are not required to

0:07:38 > 0:07:41withdraw just because Mrs May sent a letter. We can change our mind at

0:07:41 > 0:07:45any stage during the process. He is effectively saying the government is

0:07:45 > 0:07:49misleading people by saying that we can't revoke it. He says that is a

0:07:49 > 0:07:54political decision, not a legal decision. And interestingly, this

0:07:54 > 0:07:58comes as the Prime Minister writes a piece in tomorrow's Daily Telegraph

0:07:58 > 0:08:02saying she will write onto the face of the Brexit build the date of

0:08:02 > 0:08:07withdrawal, the 29th of March, 2019, and in a message to the likes of

0:08:07 > 0:08:11Lord Kerr, she says, we will not tolerate any attempts to slow down

0:08:11 > 0:08:16or stop our departure from the EU. How are negotiations going?I am

0:08:16 > 0:08:19told there will be a chilly atmosphere tomorrow when David Davis

0:08:19 > 0:08:24meets Michel Barnier for the latest round of negotiations in Brussels.

0:08:24 > 0:08:27Essentially, the Brexit secretary will say that the Prime Minister

0:08:27 > 0:08:31made a big gesture in Florence on the money and citizens' rights. You

0:08:31 > 0:08:37haven't moved, and unless you show some sort of gesture, it is going to

0:08:37 > 0:08:40be difficult, because he will say the UK ain't keeling over.Thank you

0:08:40 > 0:08:41very much.

0:08:41 > 0:08:48Joining me from Paris is writer and commentator Christine Ockrent.

0:08:48 > 0:08:51From where you sit, how do European politicians view Theresa May's

0:08:51 > 0:09:07government?Well, frankly, with a mix of compassion and surprise,

0:09:07 > 0:09:14because this is a very weak Prime Minister and it's not new. It seems

0:09:14 > 0:09:23that she has a very hard time with her own government, not only because

0:09:23 > 0:09:29two government members had to quit. It seems she is very secretive too

0:09:29 > 0:09:36in her way of handling her own Cabinet, and that has shown since

0:09:36 > 0:09:46the start of the negotiations on Brexit. So there is a great deal of

0:09:46 > 0:09:55surprise at the weakness of this Prime Minister and her team.As Nick

0:09:55 > 0:09:58Watt was saying, when Theresa May went to Florence, she made the

0:09:58 > 0:10:04gesture on money and the gesture on people. Do you think that following

0:10:04 > 0:10:07that, there are just some EU politicians who are intent on

0:10:07 > 0:10:13humiliating her?No, I don't think there is an intention to humiliate

0:10:13 > 0:10:23her. Mind you, Florence was just a speech. If politics were made only

0:10:23 > 0:10:27of speeches, I think the French would be the kings of the world.

0:10:27 > 0:10:34It's not only a matter of making a speech. In that speech, the content

0:10:34 > 0:10:45was deemed insufficient by the European negotiators. As you have

0:10:45 > 0:10:52said, the discussions will resume tomorrow. There are rumours that

0:10:52 > 0:10:56will be progress on the figures at the British government would be

0:10:56 > 0:11:01willing to pay for the divorce car but I think there is always that

0:11:01 > 0:11:09extraordinary misunderstanding, in London at any rate. There is

0:11:09 > 0:11:15confusion between, let's get the horse, but let's think of the house

0:11:15 > 0:11:19we will build together afterwards. Let's not even talk about the

0:11:19 > 0:11:24divorce, because we have just heard that Lord Kerr, who drafted Article

0:11:24 > 0:11:3050, is now saying that that is revoke a ball -- revocable and that

0:11:30 > 0:11:35is until you are divorced, you are still together and it is not a legal

0:11:35 > 0:11:38document, it is a political document. Do you think there will be

0:11:38 > 0:11:42some European leaders heartened to hear that and indeed banking on it?

0:11:42 > 0:11:47Well, I believe Lord Kerr has long proved he is one of the finest minds

0:11:47 > 0:11:53on European affairs and I think many of his friends on the continent will

0:11:53 > 0:11:59not be surprised to hear of his latest declaration. He knows what

0:11:59 > 0:12:09he's talking about, because he wrote Article 50. Remember, President

0:12:09 > 0:12:16Macron, who has made Europe one of his main arguments for his mandate,

0:12:16 > 0:12:20about a month ago he made an important speech on Europe at the

0:12:20 > 0:12:29Sorbonne. And I was interested to hear him say that the door was still

0:12:29 > 0:12:30open.Christine Ockrent, thank you.

0:12:30 > 0:12:32I'm now joined by the former Deputy Chairman

0:12:32 > 0:12:35of the Conservative Party, Robert Halfon, - now the Chair

0:12:35 > 0:12:42of the Education Select Committee.

0:12:42 > 0:12:45As you look at your government, what do you make of the mess it appears

0:12:45 > 0:12:49to be in?Well, government is like a supertanker travelling down the

0:12:49 > 0:12:55ocean. Sometimes you get buffeted by storms. Yes, we have been buffeted

0:12:55 > 0:13:00by storm is pretty hard over the past couple of weeks. But the

0:13:00 > 0:13:02important thing is, can we set the direction of travel and is very

0:13:02 > 0:13:08destination? That is what we need to be clearer about.You are suggesting

0:13:08 > 0:13:12that the destination is not about Brexit, it is about the position of

0:13:12 > 0:13:17the party, about policy and a different kind of party.We will

0:13:17 > 0:13:21always have Brexit, there is nothing we can do about that. But we need to

0:13:21 > 0:13:25focus on the issues that matter to the British people.But there is no

0:13:25 > 0:13:29question of that at the moment cos Theresa May is not in a strong

0:13:29 > 0:13:33enough position to do that.Any Prime Minister can focus on the

0:13:33 > 0:13:39things that matter.Do you think she has the bandwidth?Yes. One of the

0:13:39 > 0:13:44most important thing is facing our nation is skills. We are way behind

0:13:44 > 0:13:48other countries. Housing, the cost of living, the role of the National

0:13:48 > 0:13:51Health Service. We have to show that we are the real party of the

0:13:51 > 0:13:56workers.Maybe you have to go into opposition to regroup and do that.

0:13:56 > 0:14:00That would be a disaster given what the Labour Party under Jeremy Corbyn

0:14:00 > 0:14:05represent. This is the Labour Party of the far left.But it might be one

0:14:05 > 0:14:11that Michael Heseltine have to make common cause with.He said he had to

0:14:11 > 0:14:15make calls with some of those people who want to stop Brexit, but Jeremy

0:14:15 > 0:14:20Corbyn at one time was a Brexiteer.

0:14:20 > 0:14:25Let's look at the travails of the Cabinet, first Michael Palin and

0:14:25 > 0:14:30then Priti Patel, and a situation where she had to make a

0:14:30 > 0:14:38like-for-like replacement Brexit -- Michael Fallon. And you see how

0:14:38 > 0:14:44Iranian news reports are discussing Boris Johnson's remarks and indeed

0:14:44 > 0:14:54careless talk could cost lives, about opening Dario Ragna Debats --

0:14:54 > 0:14:58about Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe's politician, what do you make of

0:14:58 > 0:15:03that?I like Boris but he has made a mistake and is acknowledged and

0:15:03 > 0:15:08apologised. He apologised in the housing cons he made a mistake. I

0:15:08 > 0:15:12think Boris provide something very important for our party, some sunny

0:15:12 > 0:15:18optimism and he needs to work alongside the seriousness,

0:15:18 > 0:15:20no-nonsense Prime Minister character and offer us something but he also

0:15:20 > 0:15:26has to have his Henry V moment, he has to showed he has a serious side

0:15:26 > 0:15:30as well.It's a bit late, he has been kicking around government for a

0:15:30 > 0:15:34long time and been the Mayor of London and the point was that it was

0:15:34 > 0:15:38arrogance, he just kind of tossed off that remark and he did not care

0:15:38 > 0:15:42enough.He has made a mistake and apologised.He hasn't actually

0:15:42 > 0:15:47apologised properly.I think he has and we are in danger of forgetting

0:15:47 > 0:15:52that the Iranian regime is not a benign regime but pretty nasty and

0:15:52 > 0:15:57it promotes terror around the world. We can't allow... OK computer was a

0:15:57 > 0:16:04mistake...Hang on, saying erroneously that she was not on

0:16:04 > 0:16:08holiday and was teaching journalism, you would have thought actually that

0:16:08 > 0:16:13alarm bells would go and I would suggest that in any other time

0:16:13 > 0:16:16rather than these fraught times, that might be enough to move Boris

0:16:16 > 0:16:21Johnson.He made a mistake and apologised and has a lot to offer

0:16:21 > 0:16:25the Tory party. At the same time we did not excuse a regime that locks

0:16:25 > 0:16:31up British citizens for no reason. You talk about rebuilding, but

0:16:31 > 0:16:38before that, what do you make of Lord Kerr's intervention tomorrow

0:16:38 > 0:16:41which said that Article 50 is a political document and not a legal

0:16:41 > 0:16:46one and it can be revoked?I voted Remain because I thought Britain

0:16:46 > 0:16:50should be part of analyte of democracies but the British people

0:16:50 > 0:16:55voted to leave, my constituency did by 68%. It is an interesting

0:16:55 > 0:16:59intellectual argument but if we reverse is leaving the EU, don't

0:16:59 > 0:17:03forget that Parliament has voted for Article 50, you seriously undermine

0:17:03 > 0:17:06faith in our democracy and that would be a terrible thing. The

0:17:06 > 0:17:10public voted for it, either we have a democracy or not. We believe in

0:17:10 > 0:17:16democracy.His view is expressed tomorrow is that once people are

0:17:16 > 0:17:19more in tune with the facts because a lot of people felt we did not know

0:17:19 > 0:17:23the facts beforehand, they are entitled to change their minds.You

0:17:23 > 0:17:26might as will say that about any political position, you can change

0:17:26 > 0:17:29an election result because people would vote for another party. Either

0:17:29 > 0:17:34we believe in our democracy and the decisions made by the British people

0:17:34 > 0:17:38or we don't and we would undermine faith in our democracy if we went

0:17:38 > 0:17:42back on what has been voted for and buy a big majority in parliament.

0:17:42 > 0:17:45Thank you for joining us.

0:17:45 > 0:17:47The First Minister of Wales today responded to criticisms

0:17:47 > 0:17:50of the handling of misconduct allegations against Carl Sargeant,

0:17:50 > 0:17:53the Welsh Labour Assembly Communities Minister who,

0:17:53 > 0:17:55after he was suspended, is believed to have taken his

0:17:55 > 0:17:57own life on Tuesday.

0:17:57 > 0:18:01Mr Sargeant was facing allegations of "unwanted attention,

0:18:01 > 0:18:04inappropriate touching and groping," and Carwyn James said he had acted

0:18:04 > 0:18:07by the book and had no alternative but to sack his minister.

0:18:07 > 0:18:09Whatever the truth of the allegations, Carl Sargeant's

0:18:09 > 0:18:12death has created shockwaves in the Labour Party and the country.

0:18:12 > 0:18:17David Grossman spent the day in Cardiff.

0:18:17 > 0:18:21Today was the first chance for Labour Assembly members

0:18:21 > 0:18:25to gather and reflect on the death of their colleague and sign

0:18:25 > 0:18:27a book of condolence.

0:18:27 > 0:18:30Since devolution, this assembly has been subject to its share

0:18:30 > 0:18:33of intrigue and crisis but there has never been anything like this.

0:18:33 > 0:18:35Just down this corridor on the right-hand side,

0:18:35 > 0:18:37Carwyn Jones, the Welsh First Minister, is having,

0:18:37 > 0:18:39I think it's safe to say, the most difficult political meeting

0:18:39 > 0:18:42of his career.

0:18:42 > 0:18:45He's having to explain to his colleagues and answer

0:18:45 > 0:18:47questions from them about this matter, why he took

0:18:47 > 0:18:50the decisions that he did.

0:18:50 > 0:18:52The immediate timeline of this tragedy begins

0:18:52 > 0:18:55last Friday at 12.50pm.

0:18:55 > 0:18:57Carl Sargeant tweeted that he was standing

0:18:57 > 0:18:59down as a minister.

0:19:03 > 0:19:06But 40 minutes later the Welsh First Minister,

0:19:06 > 0:19:08Carwyn Jones, began a reshuffle of his team and a spokesman

0:19:08 > 0:19:12for Mr Jones told the BBC that Mr Sargeant had not resigned but had

0:19:12 > 0:19:14in fact been sacked.

0:19:14 > 0:19:16Ten minutes later Mr Sargeant received an e-mail from

0:19:16 > 0:19:18Louise Magee, general secretary of the Welsh Labour Party,

0:19:18 > 0:19:25informing him that he had been suspended from the party.

0:19:25 > 0:19:28According to a spokesman, there was to be an investigation

0:19:28 > 0:19:31into allegations received.

0:19:31 > 0:19:33On Monday, Mr Sargeant's solicitor, Hugh Bowden,

0:19:33 > 0:19:35wrote to the Labour Party requesting details of the allegations

0:19:35 > 0:19:39made against him.

0:19:39 > 0:19:42The letter makes it clear that Mr Sargeant was aware

0:19:42 > 0:19:49of the broad nature of these.

0:19:49 > 0:19:54They concerned "unwanted attention, inappropriate touching or grouping."

0:19:54 > 0:19:56The letter also expressed "the anxiety and distress

0:19:56 > 0:19:58caused to our client, particularly since he is yet

0:19:58 > 0:20:00to receive any details of the allegations."

0:20:00 > 0:20:02Carwyn Jones then did a series of interviews

0:20:02 > 0:20:04discussing these allegations, saying that a number had been made

0:20:04 > 0:20:08against Mr Sargeant.

0:20:08 > 0:20:15Mr Sargeant's solicitor then e-mails the party again, complaining,

0:20:15 > 0:20:18these comments were "clearly prejudicing what is

0:20:18 > 0:20:20allegedly an independent inquiry by your office."

0:20:20 > 0:20:21The next day, Carl Sargeant was found dead.

0:20:21 > 0:20:24It was a pale and visibly upset First Minister

0:20:24 > 0:20:26who arrived at a press conference this afternoon.

0:20:26 > 0:20:29Carl was my friend.

0:20:29 > 0:20:33In all the years that I knew him, I never had a cross word with him,

0:20:33 > 0:20:35never argued with him.

0:20:35 > 0:20:38For 14 years we worked together.

0:20:38 > 0:20:41He was a great Chief Whip and a minister who served his

0:20:41 > 0:20:44country with distinction.

0:20:44 > 0:20:48Here was the emotion and the tribute that friends of Mr Sargeant say has

0:20:48 > 0:20:50been so lacking in the official response to his death

0:20:50 > 0:20:55but Mr Jones was also firm that he had acted correctly.

0:20:55 > 0:20:57I properly did all that I could to make sure that everything

0:20:57 > 0:21:01was being done by the book.

0:21:01 > 0:21:05I had no alternative but to take the action that I did and I hope

0:21:05 > 0:21:08that people will understand that.

0:21:08 > 0:21:10Reporters present weren't given the opportunity to ask any questions

0:21:10 > 0:21:15and plenty of those remain.

0:21:15 > 0:21:18One of Carl Sargeant's friends and former ministerial colleagues

0:21:18 > 0:21:20told me that Carwyn Jones knew that Mr Sargeant was mentally fragile

0:21:20 > 0:21:24before he sacked and suspended him.

0:21:24 > 0:21:27I think it's fair to say that the First Minister knew

0:21:27 > 0:21:32how fragile Carl was.

0:21:32 > 0:21:35There were occasions when I was a minister in the government

0:21:35 > 0:21:37when the First Minister said to me he was worried about

0:21:37 > 0:21:38Carl, how was he doing?

0:21:38 > 0:21:41What did you take him to mean by that?

0:21:41 > 0:21:43Well, I think he was worried about Carl's frame of mind.

0:21:43 > 0:21:46He said that on a number of times when Carl and I

0:21:46 > 0:21:47were ministers together.

0:21:47 > 0:21:48Really?

0:21:48 > 0:21:50Yes.

0:21:50 > 0:21:53I'm assuming he was making judgments about what he

0:21:53 > 0:21:54was hearing about Carl.

0:21:54 > 0:21:57You know, there was no question that Carl's resilience

0:21:57 > 0:22:03was undermined during the previous period of government.

0:22:03 > 0:22:09And so was it incumbent on the First Minister then to handle

0:22:09 > 0:22:13any change in Carl's circumstances - leaving ministerial office, being

0:22:13 > 0:22:16suspended from the Labour Party - particularly carefully do you think?

0:22:16 > 0:22:18Of course it was.

0:22:18 > 0:22:21The top floor of this building next to the Welsh Assembly is where

0:22:21 > 0:22:22the ministerial offices are.

0:22:22 > 0:22:24Was the atmosphere as poison is there as some suggest?

0:22:24 > 0:22:27The questions about this tragedy are now far wider

0:22:27 > 0:22:36than one man's death.

0:22:38 > 0:22:41The former Prime Minister Gordon Brown has published his memoirs this

0:22:41 > 0:22:44week and they do nothing to dispel the Robert Burns line that he spent

0:22:44 > 0:22:48much of his time as Chancellor "nursing his wrath to keep it warm."

0:22:48 > 0:22:51He'd like to be known as the hero of the financial crash,

0:22:51 > 0:22:54but long before that, his toxic relationship with Tony Blair

0:22:54 > 0:22:57and his view that he reneged on their deal induced a simmering

0:22:57 > 0:23:01rage that some say coloured his behaviour in office.

0:23:01 > 0:23:04By the time he finally moved one door along to Number Ten,

0:23:04 > 0:23:07he realised that he was a man out of kilter with the times,

0:23:07 > 0:23:10a leader who could not get his head round the need

0:23:10 > 0:23:12for communicating his feelings as well as his policies

0:23:12 > 0:23:13to the electorate.

0:23:13 > 0:23:15For Newsnight, he sat down with the BBC's political

0:23:15 > 0:23:16editor, Laura Kuennsberg.

0:23:16 > 0:23:18First, she asked him about his current take

0:23:18 > 0:23:22on the Brexit negotiations.

0:23:22 > 0:23:28What will happen is that we will come to a crisis point next summer.

0:23:28 > 0:23:31I can't tell you exactly how it will work itself out,

0:23:31 > 0:23:32but this is what will happen.

0:23:32 > 0:23:37By next summer, the public will have made up their mind

0:23:37 > 0:23:39that the four red lines that the government had

0:23:39 > 0:23:41set in place are not going to be achieved.

0:23:41 > 0:23:43There are going to be crossed.

0:23:43 > 0:23:45So we will not have proper control borders or our money.

0:23:45 > 0:23:48We will pay loads of money to the European Union.

0:23:48 > 0:23:52We will not have control of our courts and law

0:23:52 > 0:23:56because we will still be governed by the European Court of Justice and

0:23:56 > 0:23:59we will not have control of trade because we will not have

0:23:59 > 0:24:01individual trade agreements for years.

0:24:01 > 0:24:04So all of the propositions that were made by the Leave camp

0:24:04 > 0:24:06including 350 million a week for the National

0:24:06 > 0:24:07Health Service, they are not being achieved.

0:24:07 > 0:24:10So next summer, we have to assess the position.

0:24:10 > 0:24:12In my view, you cannot go back to the

0:24:12 > 0:24:16electorate and say, you were wrong.

0:24:16 > 0:24:19People made the decision which was right for them to see

0:24:19 > 0:24:20that respected.

0:24:20 > 0:24:23In a democracy, once a decision is made, as it was made in

0:24:23 > 0:24:25Scotland, you have to respect it.

0:24:25 > 0:24:31But what you can say is, is there a game changer?

0:24:31 > 0:24:34Is there something we didn't get right last time that

0:24:34 > 0:24:37would persuade millions of Leave voters to think it was worth going

0:24:37 > 0:24:38for Remain?

0:24:38 > 0:24:43To be clear, it sounds like you are suggesting that the

0:24:43 > 0:24:46Labour Party should be holding out the possibility of people revisiting

0:24:46 > 0:24:48the decision if things change in the EU.

0:24:48 > 0:24:49Yes.

0:24:49 > 0:24:52At this point, I don't think you should be saying, let's

0:24:52 > 0:24:54another referendum, because that is saying to people,

0:24:54 > 0:25:01you made the wrong decision.

0:25:01 > 0:25:03We should say, is there any new evidence?

0:25:03 > 0:25:05Is there something that is different from what we have

0:25:05 > 0:25:07learned about what is happening in Europe

0:25:07 > 0:25:08or what we are learning about

0:25:08 > 0:25:11what is happening in Britain that we have to look at?

0:25:11 > 0:25:14The right time to assess that is when we have on the

0:25:14 > 0:25:16table what I think will be an inadequate agreement that

0:25:16 > 0:25:19breaches the red lines and doesn't give the Leave camp

0:25:19 > 0:25:29the satisfaction it had.

0:25:33 > 0:25:43Jeremy Corbyn is a phenomenon. But I respect the fact that Andy is

0:25:43 > 0:25:46expressing peoples anger about Universal Credit, what happened at

0:25:46 > 0:25:52Grenfell Tower, affordable housing, inequality in the country and

0:25:52 > 0:25:55tuition fees and he is articulating that.Some people in the Labour

0:25:55 > 0:26:01Party who are not fans of his plane, to an extent, you and Tony Blair for

0:26:01 > 0:26:08turning the success of new Labour into bitterness.I worked with Tony

0:26:08 > 0:26:12for 24 years, we worked together on all the difficult issues. We

0:26:12 > 0:26:17refinanced the health service massively and doubled its budget,

0:26:17 > 0:26:21introduced tax credits that took 2 million pensioners out of poverty.

0:26:21 > 0:26:30Of course there were also policy disagreement and that is inevitable

0:26:30 > 0:26:35in politics.But your disagreements were about much more than policy.

0:26:35 > 0:26:39They were mainly about policy.But also about when he was going to

0:26:39 > 0:26:42leave number ten and you write about it in the book and the promises you

0:26:42 > 0:26:50felt he made to you.I think the section is about five pages of 500.

0:26:50 > 0:26:54I tell the truth because if I did not visit I would seem to be

0:26:54 > 0:26:59evasive.What did he say?He wanted to be leader, I did not want there

0:26:59 > 0:27:04to be a division between us. I agreed that I would take control of

0:27:04 > 0:27:07economic policy and he said he would step down in the second term, it's

0:27:07 > 0:27:14as simple as that. And that of course didn't happen. To be honest,

0:27:14 > 0:27:18the issues in politics cannot be reduced to personalities.This is

0:27:18 > 0:27:25not about reducing it, this is a question of when you would take over

0:27:25 > 0:27:27as Prime Minister, the defining relationship inside the government.

0:27:27 > 0:27:33It is not just tittle tattle or five pages in a book, this was a huge

0:27:33 > 0:27:36conflict between the two of you that dominated Labour politics for a long

0:27:36 > 0:27:39time.I don't think it did actually. I think the issues were more

0:27:39 > 0:27:45important. Some people said to me agree with what Tony wants on the

0:27:45 > 0:27:48euro and he will lead and I would not do that because I said the euro

0:27:48 > 0:27:51was about the national interest and we had to make the right decision. I

0:27:51 > 0:27:55doubt that it was about personalities and I think my book is

0:27:55 > 0:27:59actually about the forces that have driven British politics.And

0:27:59 > 0:28:03finally, you had a big role in persuading people in the Scottish

0:28:03 > 0:28:07independence referendum. There is a sense now after the general election

0:28:07 > 0:28:15that the SNP moved backwards, somehow the Scottish independence

0:28:15 > 0:28:17debate is sealed and over. Do you think that is true or is it

0:28:17 > 0:28:23complacent -- complacent four Unionists?Scotland is not stable

0:28:23 > 0:28:29for the long-term. What we have got is two groups caught in quite

0:28:29 > 0:28:33extreme positions. We have the Nationalists who want all out

0:28:33 > 0:28:36independents and they are going for the referendum whenever they can get

0:28:36 > 0:28:40it and we now have a Tory party which is the Leader of the

0:28:40 > 0:28:45Opposition in Scotland and they want absolute status quo. The status quo

0:28:45 > 0:28:48cannot survive, nor is independent of good viable option for Scotland.

0:28:48 > 0:28:53There has to be a middle way. The sadness is we have these two

0:28:53 > 0:28:58extremes that almost enjoy the fact they are on the extreme and they

0:28:58 > 0:29:02don't talk to each other, they can't communicate with each other, there

0:29:02 > 0:29:05is no common ground. There has to be a better base is building the

0:29:05 > 0:29:10relationship between Scotland and the UK and we never want to get into

0:29:10 > 0:29:13a Catalonia situation where people are at daggers drawn and it becomes

0:29:13 > 0:29:18is usually bitter constitutional issue again.Can you see something

0:29:18 > 0:29:21like that?I see Scotland stuck in a but if we don't watch.

0:29:21 > 0:29:25Many former politicians have turned themselves into broadcasters,

0:29:25 > 0:29:28but the new role for the former First Minister of Scotland

0:29:28 > 0:29:31trumps them all.

0:29:31 > 0:29:34Alex Salmond is to host his own chat show on Russia Today.

0:29:34 > 0:29:36The Kremlin-backed TV station is seen by many

0:29:36 > 0:29:40as Russian propaganda.

0:29:40 > 0:29:47It's nothing if not controversial - when Putin sent troops into Crimea,

0:29:47 > 0:29:50it broadcast the assertion that no occupation had occurred

0:29:50 > 0:29:52and pro-Russian locals had got their hands on Russian uniforms.

0:29:52 > 0:29:55It was also censured by Ofcom for claiming that the BBC staged

0:29:55 > 0:29:57a chemical weapons attack for a news report.

0:29:57 > 0:30:03Well, the star of the show, Alex Salmond, is here now.

0:30:03 > 0:30:09So you are doing a chat show on Russia Today. Do you feel that you

0:30:09 > 0:30:13will be free to criticise Russian policy?I know I will be, because

0:30:13 > 0:30:20the show was produced by my company and we give it to RT on a Wednesday

0:30:20 > 0:30:24evening, and all they decide is whether to broadcast it or not.And

0:30:24 > 0:30:28are you sure that if you are critical and they have a 24 hours

0:30:28 > 0:30:32beforehand, they will broadcast it? If they choose not to broadcast it,

0:30:32 > 0:30:37that is up to them. I am certainly hoping they will. In terms of

0:30:37 > 0:30:47criticising their policy, I was on an RT show a year ago and I made him

0:30:47 > 0:30:50vigorous attack on Russian intervention in Syria. They

0:30:50 > 0:30:54broadcast that on one of their own shows, so I think there were hardly

0:30:54 > 0:30:59not broadcast a show that I produce where I am free to say what I like.

0:30:59 > 0:31:04And it is an interview show and as you know, in interviews you let your

0:31:04 > 0:31:07guests express anything.So you think you will be free to bring on

0:31:07 > 0:31:15people like Pussy Riot?I can bring on whoever I like. One of the early

0:31:15 > 0:31:18topics I will be looking at is homosexuality and the apology that

0:31:18 > 0:31:24has been made in Scotland, where the same bill was proposed by an SNP MP

0:31:24 > 0:31:29last year and was talked out by the government here to apologise to

0:31:29 > 0:31:33homosexuals. That will be an interesting early subject to

0:31:33 > 0:31:41discuss.Would you have any qualms, take that censure of RT when they

0:31:41 > 0:31:44broadcast the wrong assertion that the BBC had staged its own chemical

0:31:44 > 0:31:49weapons attack. Would you have any worry about the juxtaposition of

0:31:49 > 0:31:55some kind of assertion like that? Over the last year or two, 50 Labour

0:31:55 > 0:31:59MPs including the current Labour Party leader, 37 Conservative MPs,

0:31:59 > 0:32:05including some who were at the launch tonight and 17 SNP MPs have

0:32:05 > 0:32:09appeared on RT programmes. I appeared on RT programmes when I was

0:32:09 > 0:32:12still a member of Parliament. It would be strange if I said that now

0:32:12 > 0:32:15I am no longer a member of Parliament, I am refusing to make my

0:32:15 > 0:32:18own show with my own production company over which I have total

0:32:18 > 0:32:28editorial control.Do you lend credibility to RT?The idea is that

0:32:28 > 0:32:31people watch the show, and if it is a good show with high production

0:32:31 > 0:32:37values and interesting guests, they should say it is a good show. If it

0:32:37 > 0:32:40turns out to be Kremlin propaganda, people can slate me, but why not

0:32:40 > 0:32:46watch the show first?So who are you confident of having on?I have done

0:32:46 > 0:32:50some of the first interviews already. The inspiration for this

0:32:50 > 0:32:53show came from the festival show I did in Edinburgh and the chat

0:32:53 > 0:32:58component of that. Another television company suggested that we

0:32:58 > 0:33:04should turn it into a TV show.I'm not suggesting that you are some

0:33:04 > 0:33:08kind of Mogul in the Rupert Murdoch mould, but there is a suggestion

0:33:08 > 0:33:16that you might be joining the board which runs the Scotsman.I might

0:33:16 > 0:33:21become chair of the board if the shareholders agree.You would have

0:33:21 > 0:33:26no problem with taking on that role as well as broadcasting on RT?You

0:33:26 > 0:33:30mustn't count your chickens with these things. That will be a matter

0:33:30 > 0:33:34for the shareholders. One of your BBC colleagues, Andrew Neil, was

0:33:34 > 0:33:38tweaking tonight and attacking me for wanting to be the chair of

0:33:38 > 0:33:42Johnson press and having my show on RT, oblivious to the fact that he

0:33:42 > 0:33:50used to be editorial director of the Scotsman and want to dictate to

0:33:50 > 0:33:54journalists. I have no such ambitions, I just want to produce a

0:33:54 > 0:33:58good television show.Alex Salmond, thank you very much.

0:33:58 > 0:34:01A year ago, President Trump was elected on a mandate to withdraw

0:34:01 > 0:34:03from international treaties and put jobs - especially in coal -

0:34:03 > 0:34:05before the environment.

0:34:05 > 0:34:08He is living up to his promise, saying he will leave the Paris

0:34:08 > 0:34:10climate accord as soon as the UN allows.

0:34:10 > 0:34:12And in the USA itself, he's been rolling back environmental laws.

0:34:12 > 0:34:19On this, the week when nations are meeting in Bonn for the annual

0:34:19 > 0:34:22UN climate conference, the BBC's environment analyst,

0:34:22 > 0:34:25Roger Harrabin, has been to the USA to hear how some states are right

0:34:25 > 0:34:30behind him, but others have begun a green fightback.

0:34:30 > 0:34:34Southern California.

0:34:34 > 0:34:38The San Gorgonio pass.

0:34:38 > 0:34:40A route through the mountains and a funnel for the wind that

0:34:40 > 0:34:47rushes from desert to coast.

0:34:47 > 0:34:48Look at this land.

0:34:48 > 0:34:55Stone, brick, a bit of scrub, useless for agriculture.

0:34:57 > 0:34:59Stone, grit, a bit of scrub, useless for agriculture.

0:34:59 > 0:35:01But there is one very lucrative crop here,

0:35:01 > 0:35:04and that is the clean energy from the desert wind.

0:35:04 > 0:35:08Renewables boomed under President Obama, but President Trump

0:35:08 > 0:35:11says they threaten the economy because their output is variable.

0:35:11 > 0:35:15He wants to subsidise coal and nuclear instead.

0:35:15 > 0:35:18He's trying to scrap 50 environmental rules.

0:35:18 > 0:35:24He wants to protect coal by relaxing pollution standards for power plant.

0:35:24 > 0:35:2715 states, led by California Governor Jerry Brown,

0:35:27 > 0:35:29are fighting back with plans for their own emissions cuts

0:35:29 > 0:35:34from housing, industry and cars.

0:35:34 > 0:35:37We're in a contest of ideas, a contest of government

0:35:37 > 0:35:42actions and policies.

0:35:42 > 0:35:44The outcome of this contest will determine what the world

0:35:44 > 0:35:52is going to look like over the next 10, 20 and 30 years.

0:35:52 > 0:35:58I hope Trump will not be, I hope, a permanent phenomenon,

0:35:58 > 0:36:00so we're holding the torch, as it were, in this

0:36:00 > 0:36:10interim of rather sorry environmental ignorance.

0:36:11 > 0:36:17But what to do about variable energy from sun and wind?

0:36:17 > 0:36:20Here's part of a solution in California.

0:36:20 > 0:36:23These containers make up the biggest lithium battery in the world so far.

0:36:23 > 0:36:26Near San Diego, this giant battery farm can power 200,000

0:36:26 > 0:36:28homes for four hours.

0:36:28 > 0:36:33It was built in just six months.

0:36:33 > 0:36:39This type of energy storage system can move energy throughout time,

0:36:39 > 0:36:41so it can take energy that's generated when wind and solar

0:36:41 > 0:36:51are abundant and move it to the peak times when the grid might eat it

0:36:55 > 0:36:56when the grid might need it

0:36:56 > 0:36:59and those energy sources might not be available at the level needed.

0:36:59 > 0:37:01Along with other technologies, batteries can buffer temporary

0:37:01 > 0:37:02shortfalls in power.

0:37:02 > 0:37:05Whether 100% renewables can work is still under debate.

0:37:05 > 0:37:08The roads are another Trump battleground.

0:37:08 > 0:37:13The president wants to relax pollution standards for vehicles.

0:37:13 > 0:37:20The California Air Resources Board has led the way on car standards.

0:37:20 > 0:37:23Its head says the President's team will be held back by court cases

0:37:23 > 0:37:28brought by their opponents.

0:37:28 > 0:37:31I expect that they will lose a lot of those cases because the people

0:37:31 > 0:37:34trying to carry out these programmes of deconstruction, if you will,

0:37:34 > 0:37:36the rollback, don't actually know much about how to do what they're

0:37:36 > 0:37:38trying to do.

0:37:38 > 0:37:42Some of what they've promised can't happen.

0:37:42 > 0:37:44In California, the climate may already be a matter

0:37:44 > 0:37:47of life and death.

0:37:47 > 0:37:49Scientists say climate change did not cause the wildfires that

0:37:49 > 0:37:54killed at least 40 people, but it did make them worse.

0:37:54 > 0:37:56They can't believe President Trump's administration has banned mention

0:37:56 > 0:38:01of climate change from some key government documents.

0:38:01 > 0:38:04I'm appalled by what is happening in the Trump administration.

0:38:04 > 0:38:07He has appointed a climate change denier to run

0:38:07 > 0:38:09the Environmental Protection Agency.

0:38:09 > 0:38:15He has appointed a climate change denier, or at least a contrarian,

0:38:15 > 0:38:18to run the Department of Energy, a climate change denier to run

0:38:18 > 0:38:23the Office of Management and Budget, and it's consistent with the view

0:38:23 > 0:38:27which I call the know-nothing trifecta.

0:38:27 > 0:38:29These are people who don't know anything, they're proud of not

0:38:29 > 0:38:33knowing anything they don't want anyone else to know anything.

0:38:33 > 0:38:37But President Trump promised voters that he would bring back coal,

0:38:37 > 0:38:40and 26 states supported his plan to scrap President Obama's clampdown

0:38:40 > 0:38:44on pollution from coal power.

0:38:44 > 0:38:46The Trump administration declined to be interviewed on the issue,

0:38:46 > 0:38:48but the President's spokesmen say elements of climate science

0:38:48 > 0:38:54is still up for debate.

0:38:56 > 0:38:57are still up for debate.

0:38:57 > 0:39:00I think President Trump is doing a wonderful job not only

0:39:00 > 0:39:02in reviving the coal industry, but in reviving the

0:39:02 > 0:39:03United States of America.

0:39:03 > 0:39:06I do not believe that the American coal industry will ever come

0:39:06 > 0:39:10back to where it was, but I believe it will stay

0:39:10 > 0:39:15there and come back slightly as Mr Trump create jobs in America,

0:39:15 > 0:39:17which he is doing.

0:39:17 > 0:39:20The US will go to the climate conference in Bonn facing

0:39:20 > 0:39:22all the other countries in the world.

0:39:22 > 0:39:25That COP 21 climate accord was a fraud.

0:39:25 > 0:39:29It was nothing more than an attempt by developing countries of the world

0:39:29 > 0:39:31to get American dollars.

0:39:31 > 0:39:37It will have no environmental benefit at all.

0:39:37 > 0:39:40But away from coal states like Ohio, the world is moving

0:39:40 > 0:39:45to a different beat.

0:39:45 > 0:39:52This is the Tesla electric car, dancing for fun.

0:39:52 > 0:39:55California's governor warns that the President's plans

0:39:55 > 0:40:00to protect jobs by backing petrol cars will backfire.

0:40:00 > 0:40:02China is investing billions both in investment in battery technology

0:40:02 > 0:40:09and electric cars and the regulatory regime that will produce,

0:40:09 > 0:40:11for their market, a percentage of electric cars that,

0:40:11 > 0:40:15to my knowledge, no American auto executive can even imagine.

0:40:15 > 0:40:22The Chinese have taken over on wind production, wind technology and also

0:40:22 > 0:40:25photovoltaic solar.

0:40:25 > 0:40:27So they're going to take over the American car

0:40:27 > 0:40:29industry, and the people in Detroit are half-asleep.

0:40:29 > 0:40:33They have to wake up, and I'm hoping they will.

0:40:33 > 0:40:37But the president is set on his fossil fuel course.

0:40:37 > 0:40:40To the UN climate conference in Bonn, he's chosen to send two

0:40:40 > 0:40:46respected diplomats who say climate change is a serious problem.

0:40:46 > 0:40:52But representatives from the US coal industry are on the delegation too,

0:40:52 > 0:40:55promoting coal as part of a climate change solution.

0:40:55 > 0:40:57That has outraged some other climate delegates,

0:40:57 > 0:41:00but pulling back from climate agreements and promoting

0:41:00 > 0:41:02American coal are exactly what President Trump promised

0:41:02 > 0:41:08the American people a year ago.

0:41:08 > 0:41:11That's all from us, but before we go, today we celebrated

0:41:11 > 0:41:15the 20th birthday of the BBC News Channel.

0:41:15 > 0:41:18Since 1997, it has been covering the stories

0:41:18 > 0:41:20that matter round the clock

0:41:20 > 0:41:22with courage, intelligence and panache.

0:41:22 > 0:41:24Well, most of the time.

0:41:24 > 0:41:26Good night.

0:41:26 > 0:41:29Under the proposals, drunk troublemakers would be taken

0:41:29 > 0:41:31to cells run by private firms and have to pay for it

0:41:31 > 0:41:35once they've sobered up.

0:41:35 > 0:41:38Guy Cooney is the editor of the technology website News Wireless.

0:41:38 > 0:41:42Hello, good morning to you.

0:41:42 > 0:41:43Good morning.

0:41:43 > 0:41:45Plenty more to come from here of course, none of it news,

0:41:45 > 0:41:47because that will come from Buckingham Palace.

0:41:47 > 0:41:49But that won't stop us, we'll see you later.

0:41:49 > 0:41:50Rachel.

0:41:50 > 0:41:51CRASHING.

0:41:51 > 0:41:53And we've lost a camera!

0:41:53 > 0:42:02But never mind.

0:42:02 > 0:42:06This is BBC News, I'm Carole Walker.

0:42:06 > 0:42:08Every now and then there's always one mistake.

0:42:08 > 0:42:09That was it.

0:42:09 > 0:42:11Now, would anyone want their very own...