0:00:16 > 0:00:18Could you have known that these tweets were spread
0:00:18 > 0:00:22by one mischief-making Russian Twitter account?
0:00:22 > 0:00:24No.
0:00:24 > 0:00:27And that's the problem.
0:00:27 > 0:00:28Garbage online, much of it from Russia,
0:00:28 > 0:00:31and deliberately designed to cause trouble, is evidently polluting
0:00:31 > 0:00:35public discourse not just in the US, but here as well.
0:00:35 > 0:00:38Can we stop it or are we just forever stuck
0:00:38 > 0:00:40with the Kremlin trolls?
0:00:40 > 0:00:52Has perfected the art of driving wedges into political systems and
0:00:52 > 0:00:57their adversaries, and they've perfected this in the 60s and 70s.
0:00:57 > 0:01:02Also tonight.
0:01:02 > 0:01:09We've already passed about I think ten tanks and it seems like more and
0:01:09 > 0:01:12more are heading towards Harare.
0:01:12 > 0:01:14Military vehicles heading for the Zimbabwe capital.
0:01:14 > 0:01:16For a moment, it looked like the army might be booting
0:01:16 > 0:01:19President Mugabe out today.
0:01:19 > 0:01:25What is going on there?Here in Harare the military have threatened
0:01:25 > 0:01:30a wreck intervention in the affairs of the ruling party, adding a twist
0:01:30 > 0:01:33to the raging power struggles over who will succeed the 93-year-old
0:01:33 > 0:01:34president.
0:01:34 > 0:01:36We'll hear live from Zimbabwe about the struggle to succeed
0:01:36 > 0:01:44the world's oldest head of state.
0:01:44 > 0:01:46Hello, nice to meet you.
0:01:46 > 0:01:48And visiting the UK from the Philippines,
0:01:48 > 0:01:51the niece of a victim of Grenfell, meets her aunt's neighbours
0:01:51 > 0:01:53to try to make sense of the tragedy.
0:02:00 > 0:02:01Hello.
0:02:01 > 0:02:04For months now, we've gazed at the US as it deals with apparent
0:02:04 > 0:02:07Russian interference in its political affairs.
0:02:07 > 0:02:09Well, as we tend to do what the Americans do,
0:02:09 > 0:02:13but with a lag, it was only a matter of time before concern about Russian
0:02:13 > 0:02:14meddling would come here.
0:02:14 > 0:02:17And come here, it really now has.
0:02:17 > 0:02:19The Sun and Times are both reporting tomorrow that the head of
0:02:19 > 0:02:22the National Cyber Security Centre says British energy companies have
0:02:22 > 0:02:24already been hacked, a clear threat to clean running
0:02:24 > 0:02:30of our infrastructure.
0:02:30 > 0:02:31That is one kind of problem.
0:02:31 > 0:02:34Last night, the Prime Minister used a rather interesting phrase
0:02:34 > 0:02:37in condemning the Russians: the country, she said, is attempting
0:02:37 > 0:02:41to "sow discord in the West and undermine our institutions."
0:02:41 > 0:02:46In short, Russia has no agenda but is just trying to cause trouble.
0:02:46 > 0:02:48It's a rebel country without a cause.
0:02:48 > 0:02:53Now, you might say, why worry about Russian fake news and election
0:02:53 > 0:02:57lies, we generate plenty of all that ourselves.
0:02:57 > 0:02:59But we're divided enough at the moment, without Russia
0:02:59 > 0:03:00stirring things up.
0:03:00 > 0:03:02So how worried should we be?
0:03:02 > 0:03:07Here's our diplomatic editor Mark Urban.
0:03:13 > 0:03:21I own nothing in Russia.From America to France or even Catalonia
0:03:21 > 0:03:26the accusations have been emphatic that Russia has used information
0:03:26 > 0:03:30warfare to disrupt western democracies, so division and reap
0:03:30 > 0:03:31political rewards.
0:03:31 > 0:03:33By their own criteria inside the machine, as it were,
0:03:33 > 0:03:36which is doing this, it's being seen as a major
0:03:36 > 0:03:38success and, of course, it's important for these particular
0:03:38 > 0:03:40agencies within the military, within the security apparatus to be
0:03:40 > 0:03:43successful, to get more funding.
0:03:43 > 0:03:46There's a good deal of competition among the agencies in this business
0:03:46 > 0:03:49so I think from a Russian point of view, from the professionals doing
0:03:49 > 0:03:51it, it's been a success.
0:03:51 > 0:03:53But how does Britain fit into this?
0:03:53 > 0:03:55This week it emerged that messages like
0:03:55 > 0:03:59this one on Twitter had come from a bot or an automated account.
0:03:59 > 0:04:04It was linked to Russia and intended to
0:04:04 > 0:04:06divide Britons and stoke prejudice against Muslims.
0:04:06 > 0:04:11Russia has perfected the art of...
0:04:11 > 0:04:13Driving wedges into existing cracks of political systems
0:04:13 > 0:04:15of their adversaries.
0:04:15 > 0:04:20And they've perfected this art already
0:04:20 > 0:04:24in the 1960s and 70s, in the Cold War we used to call
0:04:24 > 0:04:28these operations active measures.
0:04:28 > 0:04:30Today, of course, social media are a prime
0:04:30 > 0:04:33amplification tool of active measures.
0:04:33 > 0:04:36Theresa May's tough talk on Russia yesterday echoed that of
0:04:36 > 0:04:45her intelligence bosses earlier this year.
0:04:45 > 0:04:50When the chief of MI6, speaking at the service's Vauxhall Cross HQ made
0:04:50 > 0:04:54this accusation.The connectivity that is at the heart of
0:04:54 > 0:04:57globalisation can be exploited by states with hostile intent to
0:04:57 > 0:05:04further their aims deny belief. They do this through means as varied as
0:05:04 > 0:05:08cyber attacks, propaganda or subversion of democratic process.
0:05:08 > 0:05:12The Prime Minister's charge against Russia is completely in line with
0:05:12 > 0:05:19the assessments of her nonpolitical intelligence chiefs. But, like a lot
0:05:19 > 0:05:24of intelligence, it's short and hard fact or specifics and what nobody in
0:05:24 > 0:05:29Whitehall is alleging is that the UK has come under a similar information
0:05:29 > 0:05:34wars deluged to that which hit America in the summer of 2016.What
0:05:34 > 0:05:41we've seen in the US is hacking, leaking, and then amplification of
0:05:41 > 0:05:48this content and social media, including fake news. What we've seen
0:05:48 > 0:05:53in Germany, France and the UK is not so much hacking and leaking, almost
0:05:53 > 0:05:59none of that, in fact, almost no leaking, certainly, instead
0:05:59 > 0:06:03amplification operations and social media which tried to amplify wedges
0:06:03 > 0:06:10and divisions.Russia's response came from the Foreign Ministry whose
0:06:10 > 0:06:13spokeswoman added the prime Mr's attack was an attempt to distract
0:06:13 > 0:06:19from the problems of Brexited. In unleashing social media, exploiting
0:06:19 > 0:06:25hacked documents and financing fringe parties, Russia may
0:06:25 > 0:06:30destabilise the international system in unpredictable ways.They react as
0:06:30 > 0:06:33they reacted to Prime Minister's speech yesterday with denial and
0:06:33 > 0:06:38ridicule. On the other hand they are not very good at predicting western
0:06:38 > 0:06:47responses to these actions. In fact, very few actors are able to do that.
0:06:47 > 0:06:52In Washington, Senate hearings have brought to life hacking as well is
0:06:52 > 0:06:56evidence of millions of bot accounts amplifying Kremlin talking points
0:06:56 > 0:07:00while masquerading as patriotic Americans. While similar charges are
0:07:00 > 0:07:07being made in the UK, the same detailed case has yet to emerge.
0:07:07 > 0:07:09We asked the Russian foreign ministry to join us on the programme
0:07:09 > 0:07:11today but nobody was available.
0:07:11 > 0:07:13In a statement, the ministry said Theresa May's comments
0:07:13 > 0:07:15were "irresponsible and groundless."
0:07:15 > 0:07:21It added...
0:07:21 > 0:07:22"British society is currently not going
0:07:22 > 0:07:25through its finest hour due to the ongoing process of exiting
0:07:25 > 0:07:26the EU and internal splits.
0:07:26 > 0:07:29It is understandable that an external enemy is direly needed
0:07:29 > 0:07:31to distract public attention for which role Russia
0:07:31 > 0:07:35has been chosen."
0:07:35 > 0:07:37To discuss this, I'm joined by the political analyst Matt Turner
0:07:37 > 0:07:41from Evolve Politics and Professor Anne Applebaum
0:07:41 > 0:07:49from the LSE, she's written extensively about Russia for years.
0:07:49 > 0:07:55How serious a problem is the kind of fake news, false tweeting?
0:07:55 > 0:07:58Essentially, social media has been created for this purpose. What you
0:07:58 > 0:08:02can do using the analytic tools that Facebook is you is addressed
0:08:02 > 0:08:06different kinds of messages to different parts of society. Russia
0:08:06 > 0:08:10was probably the first major country to understand how those could be
0:08:10 > 0:08:13used to manipulate politics but I think there will be many others. It
0:08:13 > 0:08:18is a mistake to think this is just about Russia.Give me an example
0:08:18 > 0:08:23about which you have concern of a way in which the Russians have
0:08:23 > 0:08:27successfully meddled in western politics?So, we now have had a
0:08:27 > 0:08:33number of examples that have been revealed during US congressional
0:08:33 > 0:08:38hearings, for example of Facebook website set up in places like Idaho,
0:08:38 > 0:08:44where actual events were organised and Facebook inviting people to come
0:08:44 > 0:08:50and condemn immigration which turned out to have been fake Russian
0:08:50 > 0:08:52websites and they were being operated from Russia.Do you know
0:08:52 > 0:08:56how money people turned up to these things?In some of them, they did
0:08:56 > 0:09:01turn up and stop one of the difficulties, where I sense you are
0:09:01 > 0:09:04going, it is difficult to measure how well this works but then we run
0:09:04 > 0:09:08into the problem of how you measure any political advertising or any
0:09:08 > 0:09:13advertising. Facebook has a funny dilemma because they want to say
0:09:13 > 0:09:18that none of this matters but if it doesn't matter...What is the point
0:09:18 > 0:09:23of advertising on Facebook. Yeah. I know you are a bit more sceptical
0:09:23 > 0:09:27about how powerful this has all been and how worried are you by the sorts
0:09:27 > 0:09:30of things Professor Anne Applebaum has been describing?Are not as
0:09:30 > 0:09:35worried as Theresa May. All those social media over the past five
0:09:35 > 0:09:38years has become more and more relevant and prominent and more
0:09:38 > 0:09:43people getting their news from social media, that is what we've
0:09:43 > 0:09:48benefited from, I want to stress broadcast media and the traditional
0:09:48 > 0:09:51print press have more of an influence, it is where most people
0:09:51 > 0:09:55get their news as opposed to social media. I do believe that is changing
0:09:55 > 0:10:01and people, including myself, and Russia are taking advantage of that
0:10:01 > 0:10:05but I think the British government and traditional media are taking
0:10:05 > 0:10:09advantage of that as well.Do you accept the Russians are doing this
0:10:09 > 0:10:12stuff, they are throwing out all this rubbish and trying to confuse
0:10:12 > 0:10:19and divide? Do accept that?For sure. I've seen lists of Twitter
0:10:19 > 0:10:22bots linked to Russia which is undeniable but I dispute the
0:10:22 > 0:10:27tangible impact that is having on elections and public opinion. If you
0:10:27 > 0:10:33look at studies done on social media it specifies that it increases the
0:10:33 > 0:10:37intensity of political engagement as opposed to changing public opinion.
0:10:37 > 0:10:41My initial starting point would be that the people who believe the
0:10:41 > 0:10:45anti-immigration message coming from one to regard the people who already
0:10:45 > 0:10:48believe that message. You're not going to convert people with this
0:10:48 > 0:10:53kind of stuff.There are a couple of things. Nowadays of course social
0:10:53 > 0:10:57media often becomes broadcast media or leads to mainstream media story
0:10:57 > 0:11:03so it is difficult to separate them. It isn't as if it is the people on
0:11:03 > 0:11:07social media affected. President Trump tweets, most people learn
0:11:07 > 0:11:11about them because they are on television. That is the way in which
0:11:11 > 0:11:16they get across. It is important to understand the Russian method, which
0:11:16 > 0:11:23isn't blindingly original, is to identify these very passionate and
0:11:23 > 0:11:29obsessed groups...Yes.Which exist and which can be found through
0:11:29 > 0:11:36social media analytics. And then to increase their energy, increase
0:11:36 > 0:11:39their passion, persuade them to vote, persuade their friends to
0:11:39 > 0:11:43vote. On the other hand, persuade others not to vote. They were using
0:11:43 > 0:11:48these fake black lives matters Facebook pages in the United States
0:11:48 > 0:11:52to persuade potential Hillary voters not to vote. I don't think anybody
0:11:52 > 0:12:01is claiming that they have changed our way of thinking. This is a way
0:12:01 > 0:12:04of finding out what social divisions already exist, working with them and
0:12:04 > 0:12:10exacerbating them.There is an argument that people have used that
0:12:10 > 0:12:16these have interfered in elections, Brexit and Trump, and people will
0:12:16 > 0:12:19say that as an excuse by people who lost those elections.That is
0:12:19 > 0:12:24something I would agree with. It is an excuse, a hyperbolic one at that.
0:12:24 > 0:12:30To be honest with you, much more of a reason why the Clinton campaign
0:12:30 > 0:12:36lost and they remain campaign lost is because the campaigns would die
0:12:36 > 0:12:41in the first place. It is dangerous territory here when we go into using
0:12:41 > 0:12:47the term Russia as a catchall phrase to kind of justify the fact we
0:12:47 > 0:12:52should show trust in our current inept leaders and candidates when,
0:12:52 > 0:12:56in reality, they are covering their own tracks.In terms of what we
0:12:56 > 0:13:01should do about this, isn't the best thing to do about this is tried and
0:13:01 > 0:13:04educate everybody not to believe everything they see online,
0:13:04 > 0:13:08particularly a Twitter account where the person doesn't have an ordinary
0:13:08 > 0:13:11name or picture of themselves?We are just at the beginning of
0:13:11 > 0:13:15understanding how this works. Think about the invention of the printing
0:13:15 > 0:13:19press in 15th century and how much that changed politics and religion
0:13:19 > 0:13:23and relationships between nations over a number of years. We are at
0:13:23 > 0:13:28the beginning of a process like that now where this is going to change
0:13:28 > 0:13:32everything, really, about the way our institutions work. At the
0:13:32 > 0:13:36beginning, one of the solutions is going to be media literacy, teaching
0:13:36 > 0:13:39people to understand it, down the line beginning to understand how
0:13:39 > 0:13:44these divisive campaigns work and finding antidotes.Do you agree on
0:13:44 > 0:13:50that?I think the trouble which we have here is essentially people are
0:13:50 > 0:13:53already combating it themselves. It hasn't impacted the election in the
0:13:53 > 0:13:57first place. The snobbish insinuation people are almost too
0:13:57 > 0:14:01stupid to realise and are going to take notice of a Russia Twitter bot
0:14:01 > 0:14:06and change their minds I think, again, that kind of inference is one
0:14:06 > 0:14:10of the main reasons why people have lost trust in establishment
0:14:10 > 0:14:13politicians in the first place, the insinuation people don't know what
0:14:13 > 0:14:18they want.Thank you.
0:14:18 > 0:14:20Now, nation, take note, we are about to give
0:14:20 > 0:14:22you a fleeting look at our famous Brexit countdown clock.
0:14:22 > 0:14:25Because today MPs embarked on the next stage of the Brexit
0:14:25 > 0:14:26legislative process, with line by line debate
0:14:26 > 0:14:28of the EU Withdrawal Bill.
0:14:28 > 0:14:30Two amendments attempt to enshrine in law the date of Brexit.
0:14:30 > 0:14:33One, from Labour's Frank Field, set the date as 30th March 2019.
0:14:33 > 0:14:36That one's gone now.
0:14:36 > 0:14:38But a government one enshrines the official date
0:14:38 > 0:14:43of 29th March and the time as, well, 11pm.
0:14:43 > 0:14:53And as you can see, that is almost exactly 500 days away.
0:14:56 > 0:15:00If only we'd just put this item 15 minutes later.
0:15:00 > 0:15:03But it's not just the clock giving us numbers today.
0:15:03 > 0:15:04The parliamentary arithmetic is on everybody's minds, too.
0:15:04 > 0:15:07Are there enough Tory rebels to defeat the government on crucial
0:15:07 > 0:15:09aspects of the bill?
0:15:09 > 0:15:11Meanwhile, elsewhere in Westminster leading car makers were quoting some
0:15:11 > 0:15:13pretty interesting numbers too on how Brexit might
0:15:13 > 0:15:17affect their trade.
0:15:17 > 0:15:19Our political editor Nick Watt is with me for the politics,
0:15:19 > 0:15:29Helen Lewis, our business editor, is also here.
0:15:29 > 0:15:34Nick, take us through what happened today on the bill and the numbers of
0:15:34 > 0:15:39MPs who could prevail.It was the first vote at committee stage today
0:15:39 > 0:15:46on the bill. A couple of uncontroversial votes and the
0:15:46 > 0:15:49government supports 318 MPs, not a bad base but there is a
0:15:49 > 0:15:53controversial decision to amend the bill to put on the face of it the
0:15:53 > 0:15:57exact date of withdrawal. Tory rebels furious with that, they say
0:15:57 > 0:16:01there was another amendment saying the government would be able to
0:16:01 > 0:16:08change the date through the stroke of a pen known as the statutory
0:16:08 > 0:16:11instrument. A number of Tory MPs say they cannot support that amendment
0:16:11 > 0:16:15and hear the front page the Daily Telegraph, the Brexit mutineers,
0:16:15 > 0:16:18reporting the rest 15 of these Tory MPs who have informed senior party
0:16:18 > 0:16:22figures that they cannot vote for that. One of those the former
0:16:22 > 0:16:26Chancellor Ken Clarke and he was really annoyed when he was talking
0:16:26 > 0:16:33about this this afternoon.
0:16:33 > 0:16:34I am the rebel.
0:16:34 > 0:16:37I espouse the policies the Conservative Party has followed
0:16:37 > 0:16:39in the 50 years, of my membership of it until we had
0:16:39 > 0:16:42a referendum 18 months ago and I regret I have
0:16:42 > 0:16:43not yet seen the light.
0:16:43 > 0:16:45And I ask the government to reconsider silly amendments
0:16:45 > 0:16:48thrown out because they got a good article in the Daily Telegraph,
0:16:48 > 0:16:56which actually might do harm.
0:16:56 > 0:16:58We have just had Remembrance Day.
0:16:58 > 0:17:01I just simply want people to reflect on the fact that for one moment
0:17:01 > 0:17:05they might just recall the fact that those millions of people
0:17:05 > 0:17:12who died in both world wars died for a reason.
0:17:12 > 0:17:20It was to do with sustaining the freedom and democracy of this House.
0:17:20 > 0:17:28Derry have the Tory party warhorses. But in the last hour were about to
0:17:28 > 0:17:35get more votes on the continuing role of the European Court of
0:17:35 > 0:17:39Justice and Oliver Letwin has said in that area the bill is a mess and
0:17:39 > 0:17:41unless the government amends that it would be massacred in the House of
0:17:41 > 0:17:46Lords. Moving on to the business side, we
0:17:46 > 0:17:51had car companies appearing before MPs today, what did they have to
0:17:51 > 0:17:56say?The headline grabber was Aston Martin and they spoke about no deal
0:17:56 > 0:18:01Brexit being semi-catastrophic in their words. So cars built in the UK
0:18:01 > 0:18:06are certified here by the UK regulator and that certification is
0:18:06 > 0:18:09valid overseas and recognised. They said in an acrimonious no deal
0:18:09 > 0:18:14Brexit they might have to shut down production and find another means to
0:18:14 > 0:18:19be certified. So that was the doomsday stuff. Some numbers as
0:18:19 > 0:18:26well. The numbers which illustrate the challenge of planning, Honda, a
0:18:26 > 0:18:31top five car-maker, 14% of components come from the EU. That is
0:18:31 > 0:18:372 million components every day arriving on 350 tracks. And that is
0:18:37 > 0:18:43just manufacturing, the only keep one of our worst of stock at its
0:18:43 > 0:18:46factory in Swindon. So they're thinking about how much stock they
0:18:46 > 0:18:52need, where they store it, how to cope with delays. And talking about
0:18:52 > 0:18:55a 15 minute delay meaning eight and £50,000 in extra costs. They think
0:18:55 > 0:19:00it would take them 18 months to be ready to leave the customs union and
0:19:00 > 0:19:04deal with the extra customs volume. So an insight into some of the
0:19:04 > 0:19:10complexity around that.Before we move on to long-term trade deals we
0:19:10 > 0:19:17have to get past go. And that means getting out of these divorced talks.
0:19:17 > 0:19:24Tell us what is going on there and what we expect tomorrow?Well
0:19:24 > 0:19:28Theresa May will be lampooning European Parliament next week
0:19:28 > 0:19:37because they must approve the deal. She is meeting one member of the
0:19:37 > 0:19:43largest centre-right party. And it has been said there would be no deal
0:19:43 > 0:19:50by December because the UK has got to pay three times the amount
0:19:50 > 0:19:55proposed. But interestingly today William Hague in his Daily Telegraph
0:19:55 > 0:19:58column said the government should put a larger sum on the table
0:19:58 > 0:20:03because he said it would unlock the talks on the future, on the
0:20:03 > 0:20:12transition. We taken seriously not just because he's a former Foreign
0:20:12 > 0:20:16Secretary but he said early election when Theresa May was saying no early
0:20:16 > 0:20:24election.Now there is confusion tonight in Zimbabwe as to whether
0:20:24 > 0:20:31there is a cool underway.
0:20:31 > 0:20:36-- a coup.
0:20:36 > 0:20:39It might be the end of the world's oldest head of state,
0:20:39 > 0:20:4193-year-old Robert Mugabe, who's been in power
0:20:41 > 0:20:42for over 37 years.
0:20:42 > 0:20:44Military vehicles were reported to be on the streets
0:20:44 > 0:20:45of the capital, Harare.
0:20:45 > 0:20:48In the end, it seems it was not a coup, but something
0:20:48 > 0:20:49is clearly up in that country.
0:20:49 > 0:20:51It's all about who will succeed President Mugabe.
0:20:51 > 0:20:54His wife, Grace, is a front runner, but to maximise her chances,
0:20:54 > 0:20:57Mr Mugabe has knocked one or two rivals out the way.
0:20:57 > 0:20:59The commander of the defence forces was angered by the sacking
0:20:59 > 0:21:02of a vice-president, and there is now a war
0:21:02 > 0:21:05of words between the army and the ruling party.
0:21:05 > 0:21:07Where will it end?
0:21:07 > 0:21:15The BBC's Shingai Nyoka reports from Harare.
0:21:15 > 0:21:21Military vehicles moving around Harare today sparking a flurry of
0:21:21 > 0:21:25social media activity and speculation. So far it seems the
0:21:25 > 0:21:35speculation was wrong. And this is the reason for the tension. This
0:21:35 > 0:21:38extraordinary press conference yesterday was the first indication
0:21:38 > 0:21:43that the military could be prepared to break loyalty with its commander
0:21:43 > 0:21:52in chief President Robert Mugabe.We must remind those behind the current
0:21:52 > 0:21:59treacherous shenanigans that when it comes to protecting us the military
0:21:59 > 0:22:03will step in.They're unhappy with the sacking of long-term party
0:22:03 > 0:22:10member Innocent. They believe the former party is purging itself
0:22:10 > 0:22:20former competence. In favour of the generation.It is pertinent that the
0:22:20 > 0:22:29defence forces remain in respect to the games of the struggle and when
0:22:29 > 0:22:35these are threatened were obliged to take corrective measures.Zimbabwe
0:22:35 > 0:22:39's independence came 37 years ago and Robert Mugabe has been at the
0:22:39 > 0:22:44helm. He is the world's oldest sitting head of state and many
0:22:44 > 0:22:48believe his power has been derived from the military and war veterans.
0:22:48 > 0:22:53They said they would not salute a leader who did not fight in the war
0:22:53 > 0:22:57against colonialism. Elections with the opposition have been disputed
0:22:57 > 0:23:00and often violent and in return for their loyalty they have been
0:23:00 > 0:23:06rewarded with lucrative mining deals such as this in the diamond fields,
0:23:06 > 0:23:10once jointly operated with the Chinese military. But their position
0:23:10 > 0:23:17is threatened now. And because of her, Grace Mugabe is 52 and had
0:23:17 > 0:23:22never fought in the war. She is on Paula Jacklin about it. At this
0:23:22 > 0:23:24rally a few weekends ago she volunteered herself for an executive
0:23:24 > 0:23:32post. Dashed she is unapologetic about it. Sharp tongued, she has
0:23:32 > 0:23:34often scolded military and war veterans for holding the party to
0:23:34 > 0:23:43ransom. Grace Mugabe has the backing of the youth who said they will
0:23:43 > 0:23:54defend the party against threats from the military.Defending the
0:23:54 > 0:24:00revolution and leader of the President is a principle we are
0:24:00 > 0:24:04prepared to die for.The curtain appears to be falling on Zimbabwe 's
0:24:04 > 0:24:10liberation war pass. War veterans were arrested last year for --
0:24:10 > 0:24:14arrested last year for calling President Mugabe a traitor.We
0:24:14 > 0:24:22agreed that this national army which developed from the guerrilla army,
0:24:22 > 0:24:25it should have protected the interests of the people, political,
0:24:25 > 0:24:30economic and other way.Others believe the stand-off with the
0:24:30 > 0:24:39generals assist test of Mugabe's power.This is looking like a sign
0:24:39 > 0:24:48of weakness. Mugabe is considering his position. There was this
0:24:48 > 0:24:53conversation between party and state. If you recall Mugabe two
0:24:53 > 0:24:57years ago specifically thanked the military for rescuing him and his
0:24:57 > 0:25:04party from defeat in the elections. So here has been quite comfortable
0:25:04 > 0:25:08with the interference of the military when it has been on his
0:25:08 > 0:25:12behalf. Now the military looks like interfering in politics against him
0:25:12 > 0:25:17he being a bit more uncomfortable that.As the politicians squabble
0:25:17 > 0:25:22the economy is taking a tumble and as ordinary people are hardest hit,
0:25:22 > 0:25:27food prices are rising and unemployment is at 90%. The
0:25:27 > 0:25:31stand-off continues between the military and President Mugabe. The
0:25:31 > 0:25:36president has not commented on the general statements but he has the
0:25:36 > 0:25:40power to fire them. The country waits for his next move.
0:25:40 > 0:25:41Shingai Nyoka there.
0:25:41 > 0:25:44Interestingly, of course, the vast bulk of Zimbabweans have
0:25:44 > 0:25:47never known any leader other than Mr Mugabe, nor, indeed, has
0:25:47 > 0:25:48the young nation of Zimbabwe.
0:25:48 > 0:25:50So, where does this go?
0:25:50 > 0:25:51Joining me now live from Harare is freelance
0:25:51 > 0:25:53journalist Rashweat Mukundu.
0:25:53 > 0:25:55He was the director of the Media Institute
0:25:55 > 0:25:57of Southern Africa Zimbabwe.
0:25:57 > 0:25:59And here in the studio with me is Alex Magaisa.
0:25:59 > 0:26:01He was a chief advisor to former Zimbabwean Prime Minister
0:26:01 > 0:26:04Morgan Tsvangirai.
0:26:04 > 0:26:06Mr Tsvangirai, you will remember, was the opposition leader before
0:26:06 > 0:26:13agreeing to join Mr Mugabe's government for a time.
0:26:13 > 0:26:20Just tell us who is in charge tonight, is it Mugabe ordered the
0:26:20 > 0:26:29Army?That is the question that we are all asking right now. And today
0:26:29 > 0:26:36there's very little information on what going on. The latest we have is
0:26:36 > 0:26:43that from Facebook, Twitter post that the military has taken over the
0:26:43 > 0:26:51state broadcaster and surrounded the residents of the president. But that
0:26:51 > 0:26:57is not substantiated. So right now there is a lot of information
0:26:57 > 0:27:04floating around but without any official statement. Were hoping to
0:27:04 > 0:27:09hear from the military, if they have taken over the strip broadcaster but
0:27:09 > 0:27:14so far no statement has come. -- state broadcaster. So until that
0:27:14 > 0:27:21time there will be this tension and lack of information.What is on
0:27:21 > 0:27:27television at the moment, what is the state broadcaster saying?It is
0:27:27 > 0:27:32carrying on as if nothing has happened. I think for the benefit of
0:27:32 > 0:27:45listeners, there was a statement from the ruling party. They're
0:27:45 > 0:27:52condemning the military for interfering in politics. And
0:27:52 > 0:28:00insinuating that what the military have done is treasonous. Right now I
0:28:00 > 0:28:03was just watching the state broadcaster and they're playing
0:28:03 > 0:28:11music, there's no statement. They did not have the national news, the
0:28:11 > 0:28:17last bullet in the normally carry in the night.It appears what is going
0:28:17 > 0:28:23on is an almighty power struggle. For the job of Robert Mugabe.
0:28:23 > 0:28:29Definitely. The situation is very fluid as has been pointed out. No
0:28:29 > 0:28:33one knows what exactly is going on and it is not clear who was in
0:28:33 > 0:28:40charge. This is a combination of an intense succession battle that has
0:28:40 > 0:28:44been taking place for two or three years now. With the former vice
0:28:44 > 0:28:48president who was sacked three years ago and now another vice president
0:28:48 > 0:28:55sacked last week and this is the reaction from the military. Which is
0:28:55 > 0:29:02critical of President Mugabe.And this is heightening tensions. Can I
0:29:02 > 0:29:10ask in your preferred to be the next president? One of these who fought
0:29:10 > 0:29:20in the independence battle or Grace Mugabe?Well both factions, one for
0:29:20 > 0:29:25the vice president and the other for the President's wife, they're both
0:29:25 > 0:29:29Zanu PF through and through. So it is a very difficult choice for
0:29:29 > 0:29:34Zimbabwe. But at the moment my observation is that the people are
0:29:34 > 0:29:45opposed to the idea of Grace Mugabe. Anything but the Maghaberry family.
0:29:45 > 0:29:49Do you think you'd ever step down voluntarily? Do you think he'd see
0:29:49 > 0:29:53his time is up? He is going to be taken out there by the army if he
0:29:53 > 0:29:59needs to step down, isn't he?I've never believe that President Mugabe
0:29:59 > 0:30:03would retire voluntarily. My thought has been that he would like to be
0:30:03 > 0:30:07president for life. And what is happening now we can now see a
0:30:07 > 0:30:11pushback from some of his former allies who are obviously very
0:30:11 > 0:30:15frustrated by his rule.It is amazing, very briefly, that he
0:30:15 > 0:30:20hasn't sorted out a succession. Absolutely, this is something we've
0:30:20 > 0:30:24all been saying, he's had ample opportunity to find a successor to
0:30:24 > 0:30:27sort this out and retire, go out into the sunset and enjoy his life
0:30:27 > 0:30:34but he hasn't. And he has brought all of this upon himself.Thank you
0:30:34 > 0:30:37both for updating us about the picture. Seems like a big night in
0:30:37 > 0:30:38Zimbabwe.
0:30:38 > 0:30:39Let's take a Viewsnight pause now.
0:30:39 > 0:30:41Two minutes without news, but lots of opinion.
0:30:41 > 0:30:43And today it's John O'Farrell, author, comedy writer,
0:30:43 > 0:30:45former Spitting Image writer, indeed, and one time
0:30:45 > 0:30:46Labour Party candidate.
0:30:46 > 0:30:47His chosen subject?
0:30:47 > 0:30:49Satire.
0:32:52 > 0:32:54It was five months ago today, that Grenfell Tower caught fire,
0:32:54 > 0:32:57became a national tragedy and a symbol of some kind
0:32:57 > 0:32:58of appalling British failing.
0:32:58 > 0:33:01Now of course, in the aftermath, there is an official inquiry,
0:33:01 > 0:33:04a police criminal investigation, and there are the coroner's inquests
0:33:04 > 0:33:06into each of the deaths too.
0:33:06 > 0:33:08Do these succeed in providing any consolation to the friends
0:33:08 > 0:33:11and relatives of the deceased, particularly bearing
0:33:11 > 0:33:14in mind that many of those who died came from abroad,
0:33:14 > 0:33:18and that's where many of their loved ones are?
0:33:18 > 0:33:21From our coverage of the fire, you might remember that one Filipino
0:33:21 > 0:33:25woman, Ligaya Moore died on the 21st floor of Grenfell.
0:33:25 > 0:33:27Well, Ligaya had a memorial service today.
0:33:27 > 0:33:30Her remains, having now been released by the coroner, will be
0:33:30 > 0:33:33repatriated to the Philippines.
0:33:33 > 0:33:35Our reporter Katie Razzall has spent time with Ligaya's niece
0:33:35 > 0:33:38on her visit to Britain, as she tried to make sense
0:33:38 > 0:33:42of what happened to her aunt.
0:33:43 > 0:33:47Well, maybe Aunt Ligaya was sleeping, maybe she didn't wake up.
0:33:47 > 0:33:50Maybe she just stayed in her room.
0:33:50 > 0:33:54So I think it would be much better if she just died in her sleep.
0:33:54 > 0:33:57And never experienced the pain.
0:33:57 > 0:34:02May's aunt, Ligaya Moore, died on the 21st floor of Grenfell Tower.
0:34:02 > 0:34:04She was a very happy lady.
0:34:04 > 0:34:08I couldn't imagine a very happy person and a lady
0:34:08 > 0:34:13who laughs very loud, was silenced by fire.
0:34:21 > 0:34:23She has come to London from the Philippines
0:34:23 > 0:34:25searching for answers.
0:34:25 > 0:34:27Her aunt's remains were only identified almost four
0:34:27 > 0:34:30months after the fire.
0:34:30 > 0:34:35They found a tooth that they got from the flat.
0:34:35 > 0:34:40And then they positively identified that it is really Aunt Ligaya.
0:34:40 > 0:34:45They told us that the temperature of...
0:34:45 > 0:34:51the heat was double the heat of a crematorium,
0:34:51 > 0:34:53so you could imagine that really nothing could be
0:34:53 > 0:34:58positively identified.
0:34:58 > 0:35:02So it really took them a while to identify Aunt Ligaya.
0:35:03 > 0:35:05These are Aunt Ligaya...
0:35:05 > 0:35:08these are the things that we got from storage.
0:35:08 > 0:35:15Actually I had at least six boxes which I collected there.
0:35:15 > 0:35:17And she has these letters, these are some of the letters
0:35:17 > 0:35:21which we sent her, actually.
0:35:21 > 0:35:24May has chosen these to take back to the Philippines as keepsakes.
0:35:24 > 0:35:28Her aunt had married an Englishman and was one of the first residents
0:35:28 > 0:35:31of Grenfell Tower back in the 1970s.
0:35:31 > 0:35:34These are the books I think which she bought.
0:35:34 > 0:35:37Yes, that's her handwriting, actually.
0:35:37 > 0:35:39Her aunt put some of her possessions into storage
0:35:39 > 0:35:42some time before the fire.
0:35:42 > 0:35:45These are recipes, look how old it is.
0:35:45 > 0:35:48I think she loved to cook but when uncle Jim died, you know,
0:35:48 > 0:35:50she never wanted to cook any more.
0:35:50 > 0:35:51Yeah.
0:35:51 > 0:35:52And that was ten years ago?
0:35:52 > 0:35:54Yes, that was ten years ago.
0:35:54 > 0:35:57Ligaya Moore was the 68th person to be identified
0:35:57 > 0:36:00in the Grenfell Tower investigation.
0:36:00 > 0:36:04How soon did you let go of hope that she might have survived?
0:36:04 > 0:36:06Actually, we never did.
0:36:06 > 0:36:08We never did.
0:36:08 > 0:36:09We hold on.
0:36:09 > 0:36:13Actually we hold on until...
0:36:13 > 0:36:20Until finally the news came out that she was positively identified.
0:36:20 > 0:36:24We hold on because we still hope that she might just be, she might
0:36:24 > 0:36:27have had amnesia or something.
0:36:27 > 0:36:30And she's here and she's still alive.
0:36:30 > 0:36:36So we never lose hope, actually, until they positively identified
0:36:36 > 0:36:43that she really perished in the fire.
0:36:46 > 0:36:49May's aunt and five other people from Grenfell's close-knit 21st
0:36:49 > 0:36:55floor died on the night of the fire.
0:36:55 > 0:36:58Nine neighbours survived, including Marcio Gomes,
0:36:58 > 0:37:01who escaped the burning building with his family and another.
0:37:01 > 0:37:04They had been told to stay put and await rescue.
0:37:04 > 0:37:06But it never came.
0:37:06 > 0:37:09May wanted to meet her aunt's surviving neighbours.
0:37:09 > 0:37:10Hi.
0:37:10 > 0:37:11Hi, I'm Marcio.
0:37:11 > 0:37:12Hi, I'm May.
0:37:12 > 0:37:13Nice to meet you.
0:37:13 > 0:37:14Nice to meet you.
0:37:14 > 0:37:15How are you, May?
0:37:15 > 0:37:16She was a lovely person.
0:37:16 > 0:37:18As you know, anyway.
0:37:18 > 0:37:22On that night five months ago Marcio tried to knock on May's aunt's door.
0:37:22 > 0:37:24But the smoke was too thick.
0:37:24 > 0:37:30It is unfortunate that she died like this.
0:37:30 > 0:37:33It should never have happened in the first place.
0:37:33 > 0:37:35Yeah, it shouldn't have, it shouldn't have.
0:37:35 > 0:37:37Yeah, it's very painful.
0:37:37 > 0:37:39I know, I know.
0:37:39 > 0:37:42Especially that we were miles apart from her.
0:37:42 > 0:37:44Of course, because you are in the Philippines.
0:37:44 > 0:37:45Yeah.
0:37:45 > 0:37:47I really don't know what happened to her.
0:37:47 > 0:37:48What she's doing, actually.
0:37:48 > 0:37:53I presume she's sleeping when it happened.
0:37:53 > 0:37:56Yeah, I don't think she suffered.
0:37:56 > 0:37:59It would have been on this side, you see where the scaffolding is up.
0:37:59 > 0:38:00Yeah.
0:38:00 > 0:38:02She would have been exactly where those poles are.
0:38:02 > 0:38:03Yeah.
0:38:03 > 0:38:05On that side of the building.
0:38:05 > 0:38:06OK, OK.
0:38:06 > 0:38:08I'm very happy that your family is safe.
0:38:08 > 0:38:10Thank you.
0:38:10 > 0:38:13Unfortunately we just couldn't take everybody out.
0:38:13 > 0:38:16Yes, we understand.
0:38:16 > 0:38:20At least I think she is watching over us.
0:38:20 > 0:38:21Yes.
0:38:21 > 0:38:22Definitely, definitely.
0:38:22 > 0:38:24She is watching over us, yes.
0:38:24 > 0:38:26But it is kind of painful.
0:38:26 > 0:38:27Too many emotions.
0:38:27 > 0:38:30Yes.
0:38:30 > 0:38:32We have been through that quite a few times now.
0:38:32 > 0:38:34It never gets easier.
0:38:34 > 0:38:36Yes, it doesn't.
0:38:36 > 0:38:37Yeah, I agree.
0:38:37 > 0:38:39You just learn how to control it better.
0:38:39 > 0:38:41Yeah.
0:38:43 > 0:38:45They are united in grief.
0:38:45 > 0:38:49Marcio and his wife Andrea escaped Grenfell with their two daughters,
0:38:49 > 0:38:51but their son to be, Logan, was stillborn in hospital
0:38:51 > 0:38:54as a result of the fire.
0:38:54 > 0:38:58It looks like so insensitive when you ask, how are you and how
0:38:58 > 0:39:01are you doing, after what happened.
0:39:01 > 0:39:05It looks like so insensitive because I do understand.
0:39:05 > 0:39:09Well, we are still staying in a hotel.
0:39:09 > 0:39:12And they've been, you know, very kind to us.
0:39:12 > 0:39:13And generous.
0:39:13 > 0:39:14They look after us.
0:39:14 > 0:39:16It's quite a long time staying in a hotel.
0:39:16 > 0:39:18It's a hotel, you know.
0:39:18 > 0:39:20It's not really a house that you can...
0:39:20 > 0:39:23No, you can't really move on while you're staying in a hotel.
0:39:23 > 0:39:25140 Grenfell households are still living in emergency
0:39:25 > 0:39:29accommodation, mainly hotels.
0:39:29 > 0:39:31But I mean, it's not just us.
0:39:31 > 0:39:34There are a lot of residents still living in hotels.
0:39:34 > 0:39:35You know.
0:39:35 > 0:39:38I think it's about half are still staying in different
0:39:38 > 0:39:41hotels in different locations.
0:39:41 > 0:39:45I do remember a few Christmases ago I think it was where she came over
0:39:45 > 0:39:48to us and knocked on the door with mince pies.
0:39:48 > 0:39:50Mince pies, yes.
0:39:50 > 0:39:51Just to give to the girls.
0:39:51 > 0:39:52You know.
0:39:52 > 0:39:54And obviously for us as well.
0:39:54 > 0:39:55But mainly for the girls.
0:39:55 > 0:39:56Yeah.
0:39:56 > 0:39:59And I remember she used to come and bring us that.
0:39:59 > 0:40:00Oh, thank you very much.
0:40:00 > 0:40:02She used to love Christmas.
0:40:02 > 0:40:04Yeah, she really used to enjoy it.
0:40:04 > 0:40:06Yeah, yeah.
0:40:06 > 0:40:09I just remember once in the lift, I don't know,
0:40:09 > 0:40:13maybe she liked her sweets as well, she took sweets out of her bag
0:40:13 > 0:40:16and gave them to the girls.
0:40:16 > 0:40:18"And this for you two as well!"
0:40:18 > 0:40:20You know.
0:40:20 > 0:40:21You look like her.
0:40:21 > 0:40:24Yeah.
0:40:24 > 0:40:28I don't think that you do, just that, it's exactly like her!
0:40:28 > 0:40:34When she's finding something funny!
0:40:37 > 0:40:41Every time we talk about her, you learn something about her.
0:40:41 > 0:40:46I think it's one way of accepting, I think it's part of healing.
0:40:46 > 0:40:49Now I understand why she loves this country very much.
0:40:49 > 0:40:52And she met the love of her life here.
0:40:52 > 0:40:55I really would say that she lived a full life, she really
0:40:55 > 0:41:02lived her dream, yeah.
0:41:02 > 0:41:10That's it for tonight.
0:41:10 > 0:41:13It's been announced just from the last few minutes that Australia has
0:41:13 > 0:41:19voted yes in a national vote on same-sex marriage. I went for it by
0:41:19 > 0:41:2661% to 39%. Emily is here tomorrow.
0:41:26 > 0:41:29We leave you with the last seconds of the much talked about Marks
0:41:29 > 0:41:31and Spencer Christmas ad, which the Advertising Standards
0:41:31 > 0:41:33Authority has now confirmed as cleared for broadcast -
0:41:33 > 0:41:35despite Santa being heard to say something extremely
0:41:35 > 0:41:36offensive to Paddington Bear.
0:41:36 > 0:41:40Apparently it's all in our heads.
0:41:40 > 0:41:52I almost forgot. Merry