0:00:10 > 0:00:14Still, any time, when I walk in this door.
0:00:14 > 0:00:16Dead people, there is no
0:00:16 > 0:00:18toilets, babies, everything together, you cannot mention how
0:00:18 > 0:00:23much it was, thousands of people.
0:00:24 > 0:00:26The most serious war crimes trial since Nuremberg
0:00:26 > 0:00:28is drawing to a close.
0:00:28 > 0:00:30Ratko Mladic stands accused of genocide
0:00:30 > 0:00:34and crimes against humanity.
0:00:34 > 0:00:37And the horrors of Bosnia's past still feels raw.
0:00:56 > 0:00:58Will he go gently?
0:00:58 > 0:01:01Tonight, conflicting reports of whether Robert Mugabe is willing
0:01:01 > 0:01:05to step down from his 37 years at Zimbabwe's helm.
0:01:05 > 0:01:08What happens next if he refuses?
0:01:08 > 0:01:10Also tonight...
0:01:10 > 0:01:13Abhorrent and offensive tweets from the editor of Gay Times.
0:01:13 > 0:01:16The work of one bigot with anger issues or part
0:01:16 > 0:01:19of a wider cultural problem?
0:01:19 > 0:01:22We discuss with one of Josh Rivers' friends and a gay journalist.
0:01:30 > 0:01:33Good evening.
0:01:33 > 0:01:36It's time for the closing arguments in the most serious war crimes trial
0:01:36 > 0:01:39since Nuremberg at the end of World War II.
0:01:39 > 0:01:42Ratko Mladic, commander of Serb forces in the Bosnian war,
0:01:42 > 0:01:44stands accused of genocide, crimes against humanity
0:01:44 > 0:01:47and violation of the customs of war.
0:01:47 > 0:01:51The verdict is expected next week in The Hague and will effectively
0:01:51 > 0:01:53mark the end of more than two decades of work there by
0:01:53 > 0:01:55the International Criminal Tribunal.
0:01:55 > 0:01:57So how do the victims of Mladic's ethnic cleansing
0:01:57 > 0:02:00and murder view this moment?
0:02:00 > 0:02:03And what about other Bosnian Serbs convicted in the Hague so long
0:02:03 > 0:02:05ago that they've now served their sentences
0:02:05 > 0:02:07and gone home?
0:02:07 > 0:02:09Mark Urban covered the Bosnian war through the 1990s.
0:02:09 > 0:02:12He returned there to speak to those whose lives
0:02:12 > 0:02:14were altered forever by the war.
0:02:14 > 0:02:15He's with us now.
0:02:15 > 0:02:19Mark.
0:02:19 > 0:02:25So much weight attached to this? Most viewers in this country, it
0:02:25 > 0:02:30feels like a long time ago but of course, in Bosnia there are still
0:02:30 > 0:02:3430,000 people, we can see their faces, missing and unaccounted for
0:02:34 > 0:02:38whose families do not even know how or where they died but assume the
0:02:38 > 0:02:46worst. And the country is still divided between the government and
0:02:46 > 0:02:52the Republic of Serbs, that creation of the breakaway republic was the
0:02:52 > 0:02:56central project of Ratko Mladic and the political leaders so many people
0:02:56 > 0:03:05still ask and it is a lively debate, is there design still in place? And
0:03:05 > 0:03:08both main communities still in moments of anger threaten each other
0:03:08 > 0:03:11but the resumption of war so there is still the sense of unfinished
0:03:11 > 0:03:17business.We have seen more conflicts since then, will we expect
0:03:17 > 0:03:24more prosecutions?In a way, this is the uniqueness of what is coming up,
0:03:24 > 0:03:30the political leader has been found guilty but Mladic, the architect of
0:03:30 > 0:03:34ethnic cleansing, they invented this term, he is coming up for sentencing
0:03:34 > 0:03:40and it is very unusual, traffic, Assad, some people would like to see
0:03:40 > 0:03:44the Israelis in front of the criminal court and all of these
0:03:44 > 0:03:49cases have been vetoed, today I vetoed by the Soviet Union on
0:03:49 > 0:03:54investigation of Syrian possible use of chemical weapons, the tenth
0:03:54 > 0:03:57Russian veto, they referred that the International Criminal Court back in
0:03:57 > 0:04:012014 along with the Chinese and the Americans have stopped their allies
0:04:01 > 0:04:08being involved it is very exceptional and the feelings aroused
0:04:08 > 0:04:11by General Mladic and what happened are still so Rourke as we discovered
0:04:11 > 0:04:14when we went back to Bosnia.
0:04:14 > 0:04:17Bosnia is a place haunted by what its people did to one
0:04:17 > 0:04:21another during their war.
0:04:21 > 0:04:24And today, the victims' demand demand for an accounting of past
0:04:24 > 0:04:26crimes must be balanced with the country's desire, somehow,
0:04:26 > 0:04:33to escape them and move forward.
0:04:35 > 0:04:38In an old factory in central Bosnia, the human cost of the war
0:04:38 > 0:04:42is still being measured.
0:04:42 > 0:04:45For it is here that unidentified corpses from mass graves
0:04:45 > 0:04:49are being delivered, even today, and the families
0:04:49 > 0:04:54of 30,000 still missing search for answers.
0:04:56 > 0:05:01This is overwhelming, in a certain way.
0:05:01 > 0:05:04There are pictures of the missing.
0:05:04 > 0:05:07There are human remains pretty much everywhere here.
0:05:07 > 0:05:10By the hundreds.
0:05:10 > 0:05:12And then, at the end, there are scraps of clothing
0:05:12 > 0:05:18and other things that have been recovered with them.
0:05:18 > 0:05:22And this place is the main hope that a lot of the families of those
0:05:22 > 0:05:26missing have for discovering what on earth happened to a loved
0:05:26 > 0:05:34one who just disappeared all those years ago.
0:05:34 > 0:05:39Having covered the war 25 years ago, I've come back to explore the impact
0:05:39 > 0:05:48that one particularly malign man had on the lives of thousands.
0:05:50 > 0:05:55Ratko Mladic commanded Serb forces in the Bosnian war.
0:05:55 > 0:05:59He is now facing a verdict on an enormous catalogue of war
0:05:59 > 0:06:02crimes, including genocide.
0:06:02 > 0:06:05It has taken six years to try.
0:06:05 > 0:06:10Four days ago marked two decades since Ratko Mladic became
0:06:10 > 0:06:14the commander of the main staff of the army of Republika
0:06:14 > 0:06:17Srpska, the VRS.
0:06:17 > 0:06:23On that day he assumed the mantle of realising through military might
0:06:23 > 0:06:30the criminal goals of ethnically cleansing much of Bosnia.
0:06:35 > 0:06:39Musreta Sivac was a judge herself in the north-western town
0:06:39 > 0:06:45of Prijedor when Serb troops took over in May 1992.
0:06:45 > 0:06:49She was fired and became one of thousands of Muslims sent
0:06:49 > 0:06:54to Omarska, an iron ore plant that would become infamous
0:06:54 > 0:06:59as a camp where, in a few months, 700 inmates died.
0:07:28 > 0:07:33Omarska was the product of what was called ethnic cleansing -
0:07:33 > 0:07:37driving non-Serbs out of much of Bosnia.
0:07:37 > 0:07:4237 women were used to serve in the camp's dining hall.
0:07:42 > 0:07:44During the day they could hear torture going on in
0:07:44 > 0:07:47the nearby dormitories.
0:07:47 > 0:07:51And night brought its own anguish.
0:08:40 > 0:08:44Mr Kvocka, please rise.
0:08:44 > 0:08:49Early on, The Hague tribunal tried several of the Omarska guards.
0:08:49 > 0:08:52One of those trials featured Miroslav Kvocka.
0:08:52 > 0:08:56A policeman at the start of the war, he was described in court as deputy
0:08:56 > 0:09:00commander of the camp.
0:09:01 > 0:09:05Then, as now, he portrays himself as someone who saved his Muslim
0:09:05 > 0:09:10wife's relatives from the horror of the camp.
0:09:20 > 0:09:24The chamber considers that isolated acts of kindness to some prisoners
0:09:24 > 0:09:28do not absorb any individual of crimes which may
0:09:28 > 0:09:29have been committed.
0:09:29 > 0:09:32The court said he was culpable of joint enterprise.
0:09:32 > 0:09:36He knew what was going on and didn't stop it.
0:09:36 > 0:09:39The chamber finds you guilty of the crime against humanity,
0:09:39 > 0:09:46persecution, and the war crimes, murder and torture.
0:09:50 > 0:09:58In the war we used to travel into Sarajevo via Mount Igman.
0:09:58 > 0:10:00We're here again.
0:10:00 > 0:10:02This place, a remnant of the Winter Olympics,
0:10:02 > 0:10:07became a battleground as the focus of the war shifted from the area
0:10:07 > 0:10:13around Prijedor to Bosnia's capital.
0:10:14 > 0:10:17From the beginning of the conflict, Mladic brought to bear the Serb
0:10:17 > 0:10:23army's superiority in artillery.
0:10:23 > 0:10:25And as this intercepted conversation showed, used it
0:10:25 > 0:10:29against the population of Sarajevo.
0:10:45 > 0:10:50So, you had come out of the flat that morning?
0:10:50 > 0:10:56Mia Karamehic was a seven-year-old living on this street.
0:10:56 > 0:10:59The siege had just started and she was brought out
0:10:59 > 0:11:02by a rumour of ice cream.
0:11:02 > 0:11:05The earth began to shake.
0:11:05 > 0:11:08I went flying up in the air.
0:11:08 > 0:11:11I could see everybody lying on the street.
0:11:11 > 0:11:16People in pieces, a lot of blood.
0:11:16 > 0:11:20In those dreadful moments, in which 20 people died,
0:11:20 > 0:11:25a cameraman captured this fleeting image of Mia being carried off.
0:11:25 > 0:11:28She survived shrapnel wounds.
0:11:28 > 0:11:31Her mother lost a leg in the blast.
0:11:31 > 0:11:34Together, the family and neighbours endured
0:11:34 > 0:11:39the following three years during which, at times, 1000 shells
0:11:39 > 0:11:43a day would fall on the city.
0:11:46 > 0:11:50The Hague process has gone on for so long that some convicts
0:11:50 > 0:11:55have done their time in European prisons and come home.
0:11:55 > 0:11:57A few years ago, jubilant crowds turned out to meet
0:11:57 > 0:12:01Momcilo Krajisnik as he returned.
0:12:01 > 0:12:03He was the speaker of the Serb parliament and, having
0:12:03 > 0:12:07served his punishment, accepts people on his side were also
0:12:07 > 0:12:12guilty of war crimes.
0:12:28 > 0:12:32But across in the east of the country, events reached
0:12:32 > 0:12:37a tipping point in the final year of the war.
0:12:37 > 0:12:41The genocide indictment against General Ratko Mladic divides
0:12:41 > 0:12:45his crimes into various phases.
0:12:45 > 0:12:48The early part of the war around Prijedor in north-west Bosnia.
0:12:48 > 0:12:52Then the siege of Sarajevo in the centre.
0:12:52 > 0:12:56And then, finally, the enormous catalogue of crimes that took place
0:12:56 > 0:13:00in this place in 1995.
0:13:00 > 0:13:04Srebrenica.
0:13:09 > 0:13:14The UN had declared the Srebrenica enclave to be a safe area.
0:13:14 > 0:13:19But in fact, as Mladic planned its capture,
0:13:19 > 0:13:25the Dutch UN troops who were meant to defend it had been
0:13:25 > 0:13:28by their higher commanders.
0:13:28 > 0:13:31Srebrenica was overrun and more than 20,000 frightened Muslim women
0:13:31 > 0:13:35and children crammed into the Dutch base.
0:13:35 > 0:13:39Rob Zomer was one of the soldiers there.
0:13:39 > 0:13:46Still, any time when I walk in this door, a split-second,
0:13:46 > 0:13:51I smell and see the people.
0:13:51 > 0:13:53Dead people.
0:13:53 > 0:13:54There is no toilets.
0:13:54 > 0:13:55Babies.
0:13:55 > 0:13:57Everything together.
0:13:57 > 0:13:59You cannot mention how much it was.
0:13:59 > 0:14:04Thousands of people.
0:14:05 > 0:14:11As Srebrenica fell, one woman gave Rob Zomer her baby to look after.
0:14:11 > 0:14:16How desperate must a lady be to give to some strange guy,
0:14:16 > 0:14:19because he has a blue helmet?
0:14:19 > 0:14:22Because in that moment it was the best thinking
0:14:22 > 0:14:30for her to give her baby.
0:14:30 > 0:14:37He passed the child onto medics and it survived.
0:14:37 > 0:14:41Mladic guaranteed the women and children's safe passage.
0:14:41 > 0:14:46But meanwhile, his troops hunted the men of Srebrenica.
0:14:50 > 0:14:57They were gathered in places like this school.
0:14:57 > 0:15:01The man who told us that - Mevludin Oric - went back with us
0:15:01 > 0:15:04for only the second time since Serb troops brought him and hundreds
0:15:04 > 0:15:09of others here to kill them.
0:16:11 > 0:16:14Mevludin survived by playing dead among the corpses and at night
0:16:14 > 0:16:22he escaped over the mountains to government territory.
0:16:32 > 0:16:34In Prijedor, where Musreta Sivac returned after the war,
0:16:34 > 0:16:40there are also reminders everywhere.
0:16:40 > 0:16:44Some men who were never arrested, others who have served
0:16:44 > 0:16:54their sentences and she now encounters on the streets.
0:17:11 > 0:17:17Miroslav Kvocka, taking labouring jobs since his return,
0:17:17 > 0:17:19is unable to leave the past behind or get over what he
0:17:19 > 0:17:23regards as an injustice.
0:17:36 > 0:17:45Mevludin Oric is haunted by the loss of his father,
0:17:45 > 0:17:48brother and numerous cousins and also by the fact that he still
0:17:48 > 0:17:52recognises Serbs around here from those killing fields.
0:18:09 > 0:18:12For Momcilo Krajisnik, it's pointless quibbling with a sentence
0:18:12 > 0:18:14he has already served.
0:18:14 > 0:18:19He is done with raging against the Hague and today
0:18:19 > 0:18:20thinks politicians have to leave their sectarian
0:18:20 > 0:18:23approach behind.
0:18:37 > 0:18:42Thousands of survivors demand that as trials end soon in The Hague,
0:18:42 > 0:18:47the pursuit of war crimes should go on in Bosnia itself.
0:18:47 > 0:18:51And that's what will happen in a country where the political
0:18:51 > 0:18:54elites that started the war and benefit from continued division
0:18:54 > 0:18:57still call the shots.
0:18:59 > 0:19:03That film by Mark Urban and producer Maria Polahovska.
0:19:03 > 0:19:06You can see a longer version of the film on Our World this
0:19:06 > 0:19:13Saturday and Sunday at 9.30pm on the BBC News Channel.
0:19:13 > 0:19:17Brexit Secretary David Davis has been speaking in Berlin tonight,
0:19:17 > 0:19:23telling the EU not to put politics above prosperity as he addressed
0:19:23 > 0:19:24an economic summit.
0:19:24 > 0:19:27He also suggested the EU would need to "think creatively" about how
0:19:27 > 0:19:28things would operate post-Brexit.
0:19:28 > 0:19:29Nicholas Watt is here.
0:19:29 > 0:19:39Did you hear threat or promise?
0:19:39 > 0:19:43I think it shows robust vision UK side is what they regard as an
0:19:43 > 0:19:46inflexible approach by the EU these negotiations and they want some
0:19:46 > 0:19:48flexibility and thinking about the great trading opportunities you
0:19:48 > 0:19:51could have with one of the richest countries in the world but it is
0:19:51 > 0:19:55also interesting to note that David Davis was more emollient on the
0:19:55 > 0:20:00issue of the Brexit financial settlement, as he made clear in a
0:20:00 > 0:20:04question and answer with the editor of the Suddeutsche Zeitung.
0:20:04 > 0:20:06Are we approaching between 20 and the 100?
0:20:06 > 0:20:08LAUGHTER.
0:20:08 > 0:20:13Wait for another few weeks before I answer that.
0:20:13 > 0:20:17What those rather jovial remarks by David Davis show is that the UK is
0:20:17 > 0:20:21prepared to put more than the 20 billion that is already on the table
0:20:21 > 0:20:26ahead of the next European Council next month.This sounds odd but why
0:20:26 > 0:20:30does the money matter so much? Britain hopes that if they can put
0:20:30 > 0:20:35the money on the table, extra money, that the EU will then open up the
0:20:35 > 0:20:40future trade talks and that they would also outline the frameworks of
0:20:40 > 0:20:43the implementation period and this was a point that David Davis made
0:20:43 > 0:20:46clear in his speech tonight.
0:20:46 > 0:20:49But no matter what approach we take, both sides will need time
0:20:49 > 0:20:53to implement those new arrangements.
0:20:53 > 0:20:56That is why the Prime Minister set out in her Florence speech
0:20:56 > 0:20:58that we want to secure a time-limited transition period.
0:20:58 > 0:21:01That would mean access to the UK and European markets
0:21:01 > 0:21:03would continue on current terms, keeping both the rights
0:21:03 > 0:21:06of a European Union member and the obligations of one,
0:21:06 > 0:21:11such as the role of the European Court of Justice.
0:21:11 > 0:21:14That also means staying in all the EU regulators
0:21:14 > 0:21:17and agencies during that limited period, which, as I say, we would
0:21:17 > 0:21:22expect to be about two years.
0:21:22 > 0:21:26Now what is interesting there, at the beginning of those remarks,
0:21:26 > 0:21:29David Davis talked about a transition period. That is the
0:21:29 > 0:21:35language used by the EU. The Prime Minister talks about an
0:21:35 > 0:21:38implementation period, implementing the future agreement over a phased
0:21:38 > 0:21:42period and he also talked about during that two-year period, the UK
0:21:42 > 0:21:45would have to observe the rights and obligations of the EU.Thank you for
0:21:45 > 0:21:47joining us.
0:21:47 > 0:21:49Last night, we asked what would happen if Robert Mugabe
0:21:49 > 0:21:50refused to step down.
0:21:50 > 0:21:52Tonight, he appears to be refusing.
0:21:52 > 0:21:54There have been no public statements, just a few photos that
0:21:54 > 0:21:57have emerged of the 93-year-old leader meeting the army chief
0:21:57 > 0:22:01leading the move against him and envoys sent from South Africa.
0:22:01 > 0:22:04We did hear from Mugabe's long-time rival, the opposition
0:22:04 > 0:22:07leader Morgan Tsvangirai.
0:22:07 > 0:22:12In the interest of the people of Zimbabwe, Mr Robert Mugabe must
0:22:12 > 0:22:17resign, step down immediately, in line with the national
0:22:17 > 0:22:21sentiment and expectation, taking full regard of his legacy
0:22:21 > 0:22:26and the contribution to Zimbabwe.
0:22:26 > 0:22:29Mr Mugabe's Zanu-PF party has promised free and fair elections,
0:22:29 > 0:22:36but not until next August.
0:22:36 > 0:22:38They are scheduled then.
0:22:38 > 0:22:41We'll hear first from Shingai Nyoka who's in Harare.
0:22:41 > 0:22:44I began by asking her what the atmosphere was like in Zimbabwe this
0:22:44 > 0:22:46evening?
0:22:46 > 0:22:47They are waiting for an announcement.
0:22:47 > 0:22:51Today, President Robert Mugabe met with the generals
0:22:51 > 0:22:54as well as with South African envoys and on social media there was a
0:22:54 > 0:22:57flurry and people were wondering whether at the end of those
0:22:57 > 0:22:59negotiations there would be some kind of announcement about what the
0:22:59 > 0:23:01future holds.
0:23:01 > 0:23:03We understand that those talks were done but it is not
0:23:03 > 0:23:08clear whether President Mugabe made any kind of agreement with the
0:23:08 > 0:23:14generals but the pictures appeared of him with one of the commanders
0:23:14 > 0:23:19who many believe has led this takeover,
0:23:19 > 0:23:22and they shook hands and they were smiling and so people
0:23:22 > 0:23:24are generally confused about what is actually happening and how
0:23:24 > 0:23:26and where this will all end.
0:23:26 > 0:23:29Has there been any sign of Mugabe's wife, Grace, or indeed
0:23:29 > 0:23:31of the deposed vice president, who fled the country?
0:23:31 > 0:23:34There has been no sign of Grace Mugabe ever since this
0:23:34 > 0:23:36takeover happened.
0:23:36 > 0:23:42In fact, President Mugabe only emerged today
0:23:42 > 0:23:45after days where he has been under house arrest and there was no
0:23:45 > 0:23:49mention of where his wife is.
0:23:49 > 0:23:51There has been a lot of speculation and rumour
0:23:51 > 0:23:53about whether she has left the country or whether
0:23:53 > 0:23:54she is still here.
0:23:54 > 0:23:57But the belief is that she remains in Zimbabwe and the deposed
0:23:57 > 0:24:01vice president, we understand, is still outside the country.
0:24:01 > 0:24:05There has been a lot of secrecy around the events of
0:24:05 > 0:24:08the last few days and people are just waiting and hoping that the
0:24:08 > 0:24:10next few days will bring some kind of clarity.
0:24:10 > 0:24:12Thank you very much.
0:24:12 > 0:24:15Earlier, I spoke to Eddie Cross.
0:24:15 > 0:24:17He was one of the founder members for the Movement
0:24:17 > 0:24:25for Democratic Change, Zimbabwe's main opposition party
0:24:25 > 0:24:27for which he is still a Member of Parliament.
0:24:27 > 0:24:29Security in the nation's capital is currently difficult
0:24:29 > 0:24:31so we spoke to him over Skype.
0:24:31 > 0:24:33Eddie Cross, your leader Morgan Tsvangirai has said he wants
0:24:33 > 0:24:34Mugabe gone within 24 hours.
0:24:34 > 0:24:37What do you understand has happened now?
0:24:37 > 0:24:40Well, I think it's quite clear, the military have certainly taken
0:24:40 > 0:24:43charge of events in Zimbabwe but the man behind the military
0:24:43 > 0:24:48is Emmerson Mnangagwa.
0:24:48 > 0:24:55This has been a very carefully orchestrated and smooth operation.
0:24:55 > 0:24:58It has been managed extremely well, with the minimum
0:24:58 > 0:25:01of bloodshed so far.
0:25:01 > 0:25:06And I think that Mr Mugabe has little or no choice
0:25:06 > 0:25:11at all but in fact to tender his resignation within
0:25:11 > 0:25:12the next 24 hours.
0:25:12 > 0:25:14I think Morgan was absolutely right about that.
0:25:14 > 0:25:17And I don't think he has any option but to do so.
0:25:17 > 0:25:21What happens if he just refuses?
0:25:21 > 0:25:24Oh, I really can't see that happening.
0:25:24 > 0:25:28Because he's lost complete support here.
0:25:28 > 0:25:31His own compatriots in the War Veterans League,
0:25:31 > 0:25:34which is very influential, have abandoned him.
0:25:34 > 0:25:36The public...
0:25:36 > 0:25:38The public attitude towards the situation
0:25:38 > 0:25:40is one of jubilation.
0:25:40 > 0:25:43They are delighted with the move adopted,
0:25:43 > 0:25:47the moves adopted by the army.
0:25:47 > 0:25:53And I think that really, regionally, he has little or no support.
0:25:53 > 0:25:57I don't think the Sadc meeting today in Gaborone has any chance
0:25:57 > 0:26:00whatsoever of bringing any influence to bear on him.
0:26:00 > 0:26:04Is he still trying to get his wife Grace as his successor?
0:26:04 > 0:26:06Is that the plan?
0:26:06 > 0:26:09No, I think that's dead and gone.
0:26:09 > 0:26:11That's done and dusted.
0:26:11 > 0:26:13I don't think she's in the country.
0:26:13 > 0:26:15I think she's left the country.
0:26:15 > 0:26:18And I think that she won't come back.
0:26:18 > 0:26:21That, that I think is dead and buried.
0:26:21 > 0:26:23So...
0:26:23 > 0:26:26But I think the issue now is, because the man, the person
0:26:26 > 0:26:31who holds the constitutional right to power is Mugabe.
0:26:31 > 0:26:38And he has to resign and hand over power to Emmerson Mnangagwa
0:26:38 > 0:26:41if the transition of power is to be constitutional and I think
0:26:41 > 0:26:43that is their objective.
0:26:43 > 0:26:47And would you expect, if that happens, for your party
0:26:47 > 0:26:52leader, Morgan Tsvangirai, to become the Prime Minister under
0:26:52 > 0:26:55Emmerson's presidency?
0:26:55 > 0:26:57There's no provision for a Prime Minister
0:26:57 > 0:26:59under our present constitution so that would require
0:26:59 > 0:27:02a constitutional change.
0:27:02 > 0:27:07But what Morgan made very clear today was that he would,
0:27:07 > 0:27:15he would call for a transitional government to run the country
0:27:15 > 0:27:18for a short period and to repair the country for a free and fair
0:27:18 > 0:27:20election which could then be...
0:27:20 > 0:27:23Could then be contested by everybody who wants to contest,
0:27:23 > 0:27:28in the shortest possible time.
0:27:28 > 0:27:32I, I think that those negotiations almost certainly will start
0:27:32 > 0:27:35because I don't think Emmerson Mnangagwa has any
0:27:35 > 0:27:38option but to do a deal.
0:27:38 > 0:27:41This has all been talked about very calmly with great orderliness,
0:27:41 > 0:27:44almost forgetting that he is one of the most brutal
0:27:44 > 0:27:46dictators of our time.
0:27:46 > 0:27:51Do you believe that Mugabe should be held responsible now for war crimes
0:27:51 > 0:27:53against his own people?
0:27:53 > 0:27:56That is a tough call because, you know, in the end,
0:27:56 > 0:28:00we have got to live together.
0:28:00 > 0:28:02I don't think that...
0:28:02 > 0:28:04I don't think that we will humiliate Mugabe.
0:28:04 > 0:28:07I think that we will allow him to retire with dignity.
0:28:07 > 0:28:11What he wants, what he's asking for is protection for his assets.
0:28:11 > 0:28:14He's a multi-billionaire.
0:28:14 > 0:28:17And I'm not sure whether we can extend our generosity
0:28:17 > 0:28:20to that extent.
0:28:20 > 0:28:25But the question of prosecuting him for his past abuses of people here,
0:28:25 > 0:28:29the genocide in the 80s, for example, during gukurahundi,
0:28:29 > 0:28:32I don't think that'll happen.
0:28:32 > 0:28:36I think that he will be allowed to retire with dignity and I think
0:28:36 > 0:28:38that is what Africa would want.
0:28:38 > 0:28:46Eddie Cross, many thanks.
0:28:46 > 0:28:50Much will depend on how the wider community views any change and one
0:28:50 > 0:28:54intriguing question, where does China stand, a country that invested
0:28:54 > 0:28:57so much, built infrastructure within Zimbabwe under Mugabe's rule. Here
0:28:57 > 0:28:59is Mike Thompson.
0:29:04 > 0:29:07Almost before the British flag had descended the flagpole, the newly
0:29:07 > 0:29:13independent Zimbabwe rushed to forge diplomatic ties with China, which
0:29:13 > 0:29:19had supported the war against white minority rule. Since then these two
0:29:19 > 0:29:23nations, each often shunned by the Western world, has grown ever
0:29:23 > 0:29:27closer. Not so much a marriage of love, more won of financial
0:29:27 > 0:29:33convenience. Money for cash-strapped Harare and raw materials for a
0:29:33 > 0:29:43source hungry Beijing. The Chinese currency is traded in Zimbabwe
0:29:43 > 0:29:46alongside the mighty US dollar and guess where they came from? Not
0:29:46 > 0:29:52Washington but Beijing's huge stash of foreign reserves. Over the past
0:29:52 > 0:29:58couple of years China has put $30 million every month into Zimbabwe,
0:29:58 > 0:30:04built the new parliament building, given 0% longs for a medical
0:30:04 > 0:30:08facilities, constructed academic centres, operated platinum mines and
0:30:08 > 0:30:12invested in power plants and promised a further $4 billion in
0:30:12 > 0:30:26direct investment.China is the most important player in Zimbabwe. Over 1
0:30:26 > 0:30:33billion US dollars in 2013. China is one of the top trading partners of
0:30:33 > 0:30:37Zimbabwe.Given this cosy and rewarding relationship, isn't
0:30:37 > 0:30:42Beijing upset about its old friend, Robert Mugabe, being given the push?
0:30:42 > 0:30:46Going by the lack of any Chinese requests for his reinstatement,
0:30:46 > 0:30:53possibly not.I don't think China is terribly worried about Mugabe's
0:30:53 > 0:30:59leadership. The relationship between China and Zimbabwe is not just a
0:30:59 > 0:31:06relationship between China and Mugabe.China's concerns about Mr
0:31:06 > 0:31:10Mugabe's mismanagement of the Zimbabwean economy have apparently
0:31:10 > 0:31:15been showing themselves for sometimes, in the shape of promised
0:31:15 > 0:31:18Chinese investments that have failed to arrive.Mugabe has been irritated
0:31:18 > 0:31:24by the fact that large investment, joint ventures in the resource
0:31:24 > 0:31:31sector and things of that nature have often not actually been
0:31:31 > 0:31:34implemented and the consequences of that have been to keep the economy
0:31:34 > 0:31:41in its continued tailspin.Could the move against Mugabe have come
0:31:41 > 0:31:46because his rule was impoverishing Zimbabwe's elite as well as hitting
0:31:46 > 0:31:51Chinese investors?One of the things that Mugabe had done or the
0:31:51 > 0:31:55government had done in recent years was to cancel licences in the
0:31:55 > 0:32:04diamond fields, where there were joint ventures and with dumb two
0:32:04 > 0:32:07Chinese companies in particular but the military backed interest in
0:32:07 > 0:32:12exploiting diamonds. And this seemed to be a signal that business as
0:32:12 > 0:32:17usual could not carry on.So when the head of Zimbabwe's armed forces
0:32:17 > 0:32:22went to Beijing last week, rather than asking permission to oust Mr
0:32:22 > 0:32:27Mugabe, was the instead explaining why it took him so long? Micah
0:32:27 > 0:32:29Johnson.
0:32:29 > 0:32:33Josh Rivers has described his own comments as horrible.
0:32:33 > 0:32:36Said they were cries for help and came from a place
0:32:36 > 0:32:37of deep unhappiness.
0:32:37 > 0:32:40Nevertheless, the newly appointed editor of the magazine Gay Times has
0:32:40 > 0:32:41had his employment terminated with immediate effect
0:32:41 > 0:32:43following an investigation into the abhorrent things
0:32:43 > 0:32:47he wrote on Twitter.
0:32:47 > 0:32:50The magazine has also removed all articles written by Rivers.
0:32:50 > 0:32:53Three years ago, Rivers was posting tweets that
0:32:53 > 0:32:54were anti-semitic, anti-transgender.
0:32:54 > 0:32:57He lashed out at lesbians, and fat people and ugly
0:32:57 > 0:32:58people and disabled kids.
0:32:58 > 0:33:01Here's a sample.
0:33:27 > 0:33:29That is just a flavour.
0:33:29 > 0:33:31He apologised today and said he'd changed.
0:33:31 > 0:33:33So, you're probably thinking, "One bigot with a pretty big problem.
0:33:33 > 0:33:35It could be anyone, anywhere".
0:33:35 > 0:33:37So why are there voices now suggesting a wider problem?
0:33:37 > 0:33:39What are they pointing at?
0:33:39 > 0:33:41Let's discuss this with Mabin Azar, journalist and film maker,
0:33:41 > 0:33:43and Tofer Campbell, film maker and writer, and friend
0:33:43 > 0:33:49of Josh Rivers.
0:33:49 > 0:33:57Very nice to have you both here.You think this is a wider problem? I do,
0:33:57 > 0:34:01it might make us really uncomfortable and I think a lot of
0:34:01 > 0:34:04people winced when this came out, it makes me hugely uncomfortable that
0:34:04 > 0:34:10this happened but we have to confront the truth here and that is
0:34:10 > 0:34:13from my perspective, lots of people in minority groups, including lots
0:34:13 > 0:34:20of gay men, are angry and bitter and we have to understand where that
0:34:20 > 0:34:24comes from. From a place of trauma and hurt. It is to do with being
0:34:24 > 0:34:29judged since they were kids and so forth. There is a context there. But
0:34:29 > 0:34:37it means that as a community, we are acid tongued and we can be
0:34:37 > 0:34:42misogynistic, we can be racist and sometimes we feel that we have
0:34:42 > 0:34:47license to lash out. And that is not in any way acceptable.An
0:34:47 > 0:34:54extraordinary thing to say. Do you recognise that?Firstly, I would say
0:34:54 > 0:34:58it is a remarkable claim that Gay Times appointed the first person of
0:34:58 > 0:35:02colour to a major gay magazine and that is a great thing and also that
0:35:02 > 0:35:06is because of the work that Josh Rivers had done at the magazine for
0:35:06 > 0:35:10some time and he has been doing this work and engaging with you and young
0:35:10 > 0:35:15audiences and readers and bringing in a more diverse readership so that
0:35:15 > 0:35:21is the reason he was there and it was a significant appointment, here
0:35:21 > 0:35:28in 2017, that that happened. That is why we are talking about it.To be
0:35:28 > 0:35:32fair, we're talking about it because of those incredibly offensive and
0:35:32 > 0:35:35abhorrent tweets that got him sacked. Do you condone what he
0:35:35 > 0:35:43wrote?Absolutely not. He himself has apologised and he has also been
0:35:43 > 0:35:48sacked and he has paid the price. It is interesting how I think people of
0:35:48 > 0:35:54colour who are leaders and queer people, they get judged by different
0:35:54 > 0:36:00standards. You can see this with the resignation of the sacking of Priti
0:36:00 > 0:36:06Patel. But Boris Johnson has called black people pick on knees in print.
0:36:06 > 0:36:14When you see the standards applied to black and queer leadership, they
0:36:14 > 0:36:18are very different to those applied to white leadership. This is partly
0:36:18 > 0:36:24to do with some of the way...I think this is really difficult and a
0:36:24 > 0:36:28lot of the online discourse after their story broke today and lots of
0:36:28 > 0:36:32people have said things like, there is a misogynist running the White
0:36:32 > 0:36:37House so this is small news. Let us be realistic, the story here is that
0:36:37 > 0:36:43somebody in a position of power, yes, a person of colour and it is
0:36:43 > 0:36:48wonderful Gay Times appointed him, and I am also, as a British Asian,
0:36:48 > 0:36:55but this was great. But that is not the story. The story is, he
0:36:55 > 0:36:58insulted, he was racist and misogynistic and insulted old
0:36:58 > 0:37:04people, fat people, disabled people, 30 much most of society. That is the
0:37:04 > 0:37:07issue and we need to face up to that as a problem and not turn him into
0:37:07 > 0:37:15the victim.He is not the victim. They started by saying that he
0:37:15 > 0:37:19recognises something of the acid tongue, people think of their own
0:37:19 > 0:37:24victimisation and giving them a license to say but they like about
0:37:24 > 0:37:30other members of the community?Do you recognise that? I recognise that
0:37:30 > 0:37:37in the gay community and the queer community there is a lot of
0:37:37 > 0:37:39self-loathing, lack of self-confidence, which has brought
0:37:39 > 0:37:44around by the wider society issues of homophobia. I recognise that if
0:37:44 > 0:37:48you are black and queer and a person of colour, you're in a situation
0:37:48 > 0:37:54where you have a double situation of racism and homophobia, Josh Rivers,
0:37:54 > 0:37:58as somebody who has recognised that when he was younger that he has gone
0:37:58 > 0:38:01through a self-loathing period and that is something we have to
0:38:01 > 0:38:08definitely think about. I think that for people of colour who are queer
0:38:08 > 0:38:13and generally, issues of racism and homophobia are ones which we have to
0:38:13 > 0:38:18face from the wider society and the wider gay society also and that is
0:38:18 > 0:38:25something we have to think about. I am very worried about creating the
0:38:25 > 0:38:32prior of a black, gay man who has had one small position.That is
0:38:32 > 0:38:37critical. If you enlarge this too much you create more of a sense if
0:38:37 > 0:38:39we knew this would happen if we appointed a black gay man to that
0:38:39 > 0:38:46magazine?What it is not just about a black gay man, it is about his
0:38:46 > 0:38:50position of responsibility. It makes me uncomfortable to talk about this
0:38:50 > 0:38:54publicly but lots of gay men and gay people generally do have this sense
0:38:54 > 0:39:00of entitlement about things like misogyny. I have been in rooms with
0:39:00 > 0:39:03lots of gay men who refer to women in the most awful way and they will
0:39:03 > 0:39:08say it is a joke and I know that comes from a place of trauma and
0:39:08 > 0:39:14hurt. As a community, we need to address that. I am not saying
0:39:14 > 0:39:19anything that Josh has not said himself, today he said he is on a
0:39:19 > 0:39:24journey. The issue is, we can be cynical. Of course he is a journey
0:39:24 > 0:39:27because he was caught doing something he should not have done.
0:39:27 > 0:39:34Of course you can say that now. Josh? I know Josh personally and he
0:39:34 > 0:39:40is definitely on a journey in terms of his personal development and his
0:39:40 > 0:39:43development into perhaps a high-profile position as a leader.
0:39:43 > 0:39:48Only talk about having the conversation, let us talk about...
0:39:48 > 0:39:53Recently, the person who owns a nightclub, Jeremy Joseph, tweeted
0:39:53 > 0:40:01around the idea that all Somalians are robbers and we have had
0:40:01 > 0:40:05comments, much more insidious racism and even the alliteration and
0:40:05 > 0:40:10invisibility of black queer people in the gay media and the mainstream
0:40:10 > 0:40:14media speaks to other kinds of conversations we have to have. I
0:40:14 > 0:40:19would like to have this conversation where we talk about the recent
0:40:19 > 0:40:25survey around gay racism where 85% of black gay men felt they had
0:40:25 > 0:40:31experienced racism. 79% of races -- Asian men.These are very important.
0:40:31 > 0:40:36We need to have a longer debate about this and I am sorry to cut you
0:40:36 > 0:40:40off. We have run out of time. We will return to this. Thank you both
0:40:40 > 0:40:42very much.
0:40:42 > 0:40:43That's it for this evening.
0:40:43 > 0:40:46But first, you may have seen The Sun's front page today,
0:40:46 > 0:40:48accusing BBC workers of snoozing on the job.
0:40:48 > 0:40:51Tonight we can exclusively reveal it's just the tip of the iceberg.
0:40:51 > 0:40:52Not a soul in Broadcasting House is awake.
0:40:52 > 0:40:53Ever.
0:40:53 > 0:40:55BBC output is quite literally dreamed up
0:40:55 > 0:40:56by producers in their sleep.
0:40:56 > 0:40:59Needless to say, the Newsnight team is already hard at work conjuring up
0:40:59 > 0:41:02another fine programme which we will no doubt bring
0:41:02 > 0:41:03you tomorrow with Kirsty.
0:41:03 > 0:41:13Goodnight.
0:41:20 > 0:41:23LULLABY PLAYS.
0:41:23 > 0:41:27LULLABY PLAYS.
0:41:27 > 0:41:30Hello, we started the week with a frost and we're
0:41:30 > 0:41:31going to end the week with one.
0:41:31 > 0:41:34Widespread frost as we start off on Friday morning.
0:41:34 > 0:41:36Plenty of sunshine to follow, though quite windy with showers
0:41:36 > 0:41:39into northern Scotland and gales into the Northern Isles but most
0:41:39 > 0:41:41places will have a dry day and with plenty of sunshine.
0:41:41 > 0:41:45There will be a bit of patchy cloud in Northern Ireland and you may just
0:41:45 > 0:41:47catch a shower skimming the north coast.
0:41:47 > 0:41:49The showers mostly in the north and west of Scotland,
0:41:49 > 0:41:53mostly into the north-west with the strongest winds
0:41:53 > 0:41:55and here into the Northern Isles.
0:41:55 > 0:41:58The odd one may filter a bit further east but most
0:41:58 > 0:41:59of us here will stay dry.