0:00:04 > 0:00:07Your house is deliberately burnt down.
0:00:07 > 0:00:08You see your children killed.
0:00:08 > 0:00:10You run to safety in a neighbouring country.
0:00:10 > 0:00:16Could you be tempted to return to your original home?
0:00:16 > 0:00:20It's the dilemma that may soon face Rohingya Muslims.
0:00:20 > 0:00:22They've experienced terror in Myanmar, fled to Banlagadesh
0:00:22 > 0:00:32but now may even be sent back.
0:00:36 > 0:00:40We'll ask if a new plan to return the Rohingya to Myanmar is the right
0:00:40 > 0:00:45answer for a people who've endured extraordinary suffering.
0:00:45 > 0:00:47Also tonight...
0:00:47 > 0:00:50It's the day after the Budget.
0:00:50 > 0:00:52Our specialist team will take us through the bits
0:00:52 > 0:00:57they missed yesterday.
0:00:57 > 0:01:00Does anyone really believe animals don't have feelings?
0:01:00 > 0:01:02Come on, really?
0:01:02 > 0:01:09Well, it's been a raging controversy online this week.
0:01:09 > 0:01:11MPs accused of saying animals are not sentient beings.
0:01:11 > 0:01:14Are they guilty or is it simply a sign of social media hysteria?
0:01:14 > 0:01:18And...
0:01:18 > 0:01:19Hello, Liverpool!
0:01:19 > 0:01:23Liverpool was European City of Culture back in 2008.
0:01:23 > 0:01:25Now the European Commission says no British cities need
0:01:25 > 0:01:26apply in the future.
0:01:26 > 0:01:29That's Brexit, they say.
0:01:29 > 0:01:39Should we be surprised?
0:01:41 > 0:01:41Hello.
0:01:41 > 0:01:44Ten days ago we presented you with a shocking
0:01:44 > 0:01:46report from Bangladesh on the Rohingya Muslims who had fled
0:01:46 > 0:01:49from neighbouring Myanmar.
0:01:49 > 0:01:52The Rohingya refugee crisis has been described as a textbook case
0:01:52 > 0:01:53of ethnic cleansing.
0:01:53 > 0:01:56Pushed out of their own country, the testimony from the refugees
0:01:56 > 0:02:02was truly harrowing.
0:02:30 > 0:02:33Well, as I say, we brought that to you on Monday last week.
0:02:33 > 0:02:35But there was a remarkable development on the story today.
0:02:35 > 0:02:38Bangladesh has signed a deal with Myanmar to return hundreds
0:02:38 > 0:02:43of thousands of Rohingya Muslims who fled a recent army crackdown.
0:02:43 > 0:02:44It's expected that displaced people could begin to
0:02:44 > 0:02:48return within two months.
0:02:48 > 0:02:49Well, that's the theory, anyway.
0:02:49 > 0:02:52But given what we've heard about what the Rohingya
0:02:52 > 0:02:55were escaping from, is it really possible to think of people
0:02:55 > 0:02:58returning to Myanmar - a country that had stripped them
0:02:58 > 0:03:00of citizenship back in the 1980s?
0:03:00 > 0:03:01Ethnic de-cleansing?
0:03:01 > 0:03:02Is this a way forward?
0:03:02 > 0:03:06Bangladesh and Myanmar say they are working on the details,
0:03:06 > 0:03:08but this will matter for hundreds of thousands of people.
0:03:08 > 0:03:10James Clayton worked with Gabriel Gatehouse on the last
0:03:10 > 0:03:17film and now reports on this new plan.
0:03:26 > 0:03:32This footage almost don't real, the size of the refugee camp is
0:03:32 > 0:03:36bewilder, it is streets and terraced shack, there are close to a million
0:03:36 > 0:03:40people here, it is not camp, it is a city.
0:03:40 > 0:03:45Last week Newsnight aired a film showing the unimaginable levels of
0:03:45 > 0:03:48violence inflicted on the Rohingya. Months after the attacks they were
0:03:48 > 0:03:54still crossing the border. And yesterday, US Secretary of State
0:03:54 > 0:03:57Rex Tillerson said he believed what happened was indeed ethnic
0:03:57 > 0:04:02cleansing. While we were in Bangladesh one
0:04:02 > 0:04:06woman caught of our eye, sitting on the side of the road she was looking
0:04:06 > 0:04:10out across the water to Myanmar at her former village. You can see your
0:04:10 > 0:04:22village? Do you think you will be able to go back some day?
0:04:26 > 0:04:30With international pressure on Myanmar to act, and internal
0:04:30 > 0:04:33pressure on the Bangladesh Government to reduce the size of the
0:04:33 > 0:04:38camp, the two sides came to an agreement today, to repatriate
0:04:38 > 0:04:41refugees. An agreement made by two countries
0:04:41 > 0:04:49and not the Rohingya. The situation in Myanmar is
0:04:49 > 0:04:53horrendous, sending the Rohingya back to the state is not acceptable.
0:04:53 > 0:04:56Their homes have been burned to the ground, many people have been
0:04:56 > 0:05:01murdered and killed, in the last few months, we have seen sexual violence
0:05:01 > 0:05:05and rape on a massive scale. The idea you would send people back to
0:05:05 > 0:05:11that is very very shocking. The UN hasn't been able to
0:05:11 > 0:05:15independently investigate alleged astrosties in Myanmar, even if it
0:05:15 > 0:05:19could it seems unlikely many Rohingya would wanted want to return
0:05:19 > 0:05:24as it stands, they are denied basic human rights, they are not even
0:05:24 > 0:05:28officially citizens of the country. This is a refugee we worked with in
0:05:28 > 0:05:33the cams, he told me what he thought of the deal.
0:05:33 > 0:05:40What I need is not going to Myanmar and going to Bangladesh again and
0:05:40 > 0:05:45again, all I need to be granted is my citizenship and national right.
0:05:45 > 0:05:50What is clear from the Myanmar Government is that will be unlikely,
0:05:50 > 0:05:54this is Aung San Suu Kyi a month after the initial attacks.We are
0:05:54 > 0:05:59conxxxx concerned to hear that numbers of Muslims are fleeing
0:05:59 > 0:06:05across the border to Bangladesh. We want to find out why this exodus is
0:06:05 > 0:06:11happening. A leader suggesting she is unaware
0:06:11 > 0:06:17of atrocities going on in her own country will make many think justice
0:06:17 > 0:06:23is a long way away. This woman's parents and child were murdered by
0:06:23 > 0:06:27the Burmese military.
0:06:36 > 0:06:42Do you think you will ever go back home?
0:06:54 > 0:06:59The refugee camp in Bangladesh is becoming more and more like a
0:06:59 > 0:07:02permanent conurbation what isn't clear is whether the Bangladesh
0:07:02 > 0:07:06Government will force the Rohingya back in to Myanmar, or if anyone
0:07:06 > 0:07:17will ever want to go back freely.
0:07:17 > 0:07:19Some of that footage involving Gabriel Gatehouse. 36
0:07:19 > 0:07:2036
0:07:20 > 0:07:22Joining me now is Labour MP Rosena Allin-Khan,
0:07:22 > 0:07:25who has worked as a doctor in a Rohingya refugee camp
0:07:25 > 0:07:26as recently as last weekend.
0:07:26 > 0:07:34And from the Asia Programme at Chatham House, Champa Patel.
0:07:34 > 0:07:38Good evening. Did you, while you were there, did you talk to them
0:07:38 > 0:07:41about what they, their hopings and fears were of going back?
0:07:41 > 0:07:48Absolutely. I witnessed fist hand intolerable suffering, I met people
0:07:48 > 0:07:53in the clinics who had fled many of them had lost three or four children
0:07:53 > 0:07:57and had to make the choice between leaving their children burning in
0:07:57 > 0:08:00fire, or grabbing the ones that were still alive and running to make it
0:08:00 > 0:08:06over the border. These people are fearful. These people have lived
0:08:06 > 0:08:10through intolerable cruelty and the fought of sending them back to meet
0:08:10 > 0:08:15with their death is unacceptable. You think think sending them back
0:08:15 > 0:08:19would be to confront with more of the same of what they have just
0:08:19 > 0:08:23fled.Absolutely, we need to ask ourself what is drives people to
0:08:23 > 0:08:27flee, I met people who saw all of the men folk in their village
0:08:27 > 0:08:33dismembered, murdered. Women dragged by their hair Anne and gang raped
0:08:33 > 0:08:37and children thrown on to burning fire, including baby, how will these
0:08:37 > 0:08:41people feel there is trust to go back, I believe ta if they were to
0:08:41 > 0:08:44go back now, if there was to be a forced repatriation that would be
0:08:44 > 0:08:51meeting their death.Right. What is going on, this deal, what is Myanmar
0:08:51 > 0:08:56true Iing to do, having ethnically cleansed these people out, are they
0:08:56 > 0:08:59prepending -- pretending to say they are willing to take them back?The
0:08:59 > 0:09:04Rohingya have the right to return, but it has to be safe, it has to be
0:09:04 > 0:09:07voluntary, dignified and sustainable. And what was announced
0:09:07 > 0:09:10today doesn't really answer any of those preconditions you would wanted
0:09:10 > 0:09:17to see, so I think it is really difficult not to see this other than
0:09:17 > 0:09:20as short-term political considerations, Myanmar is facing
0:09:20 > 0:09:22international criticism and wants to be seen to be doing something, I
0:09:22 > 0:09:27think what has been overlooked a bit is this is an agreement between the
0:09:27 > 0:09:30civilian Government in Myanmar and Bangladesh, so where is the military
0:09:30 > 0:09:35in all of this?You wouldn't trust, basically, if Myanmar said, we will
0:09:35 > 0:09:39give them the dignity when they return, you wouldn't trust them,
0:09:39 > 0:09:43because they didn't give it to them when they were there?The
0:09:43 > 0:09:49Commander-in-Chief said last week the Rohingya, he referred to them as
0:09:49 > 0:09:54Bengali. So it doesn't instil confidence it is safe for people to
0:09:54 > 0:09:58return back there, because it is the military who orchestrated the scale
0:09:58 > 0:10:01of the violence against them.This is the paradox. What is the
0:10:01 > 0:10:06alternative? You can see if they don't go back, the camp, your there,
0:10:06 > 0:10:11they are going to get more permanent. It is not a is solution.
0:10:11 > 0:10:14It is not sustainable. I mean Bangladesh have been amazing in
0:10:14 > 0:10:19opening the borders and their hearts in accepting the Rohingya into their
0:10:19 > 0:10:25land, but they are absolutely overwhelmed. They already have a
0:10:25 > 0:10:29fragile economy, 22% of Bangladeshis live below the poverty line, they
0:10:29 > 0:10:34can't manage. In my opinion a number of things need to happen. There
0:10:34 > 0:10:37needs to be an independent fact-finding mission taking place in
0:10:37 > 0:10:42Myanmar, it has to be open, transparent, for people to see what
0:10:42 > 0:10:46is going on and the perpetrators of the crimes need to be taken to
0:10:46 > 0:10:54trial. Secondly, the Bangladeshi Government need to be supported in
0:10:54 > 0:11:01their endeavours to care for the... Which is money basically.But also
0:11:01 > 0:11:06access for NGOs. I was out there with Christian Aid who are doing
0:11:06 > 0:11:12great work. There are issues.If I may add to that. What was striking
0:11:12 > 0:11:16about today nobody talked about the root causes of this crisis. The
0:11:16 > 0:11:20statelessness of the Rohingya. It is striking to announce a deal and not
0:11:20 > 0:11:25talk about long-term solution, how do you provide legal pathways to
0:11:25 > 0:11:32citizenship, this will happen again and again:Is there not a principle,
0:11:32 > 0:11:36the rest of the world says they can't go back, you have rewarded the
0:11:36 > 0:11:39ethnic cleansing haven't you because you have said yes, now your people
0:11:39 > 0:11:44are the ones who occupy the land they used to have.I agree. It is
0:11:44 > 0:11:50clear who the people are that are responsible for this, they are named
0:11:50 > 0:11:53individuals and there has to be accountability for what happens,
0:11:53 > 0:11:56that has to be sit in a broader programme of reform that recognises
0:11:56 > 0:12:01that the Rohingya are part of Myanmar, that they can't just be
0:12:01 > 0:12:03shunted off somewhere else and discarded, and they have a vital
0:12:03 > 0:12:08role to play in the life of that country.
0:12:08 > 0:12:14So how do you invest in them?Bosnia how many people were able to go back
0:12:14 > 0:12:19to the lace... Does it work.The thing to remember is in Bosnia it is
0:12:19 > 0:12:23not the people lacked citizenship. It is key, the Rohingya in that
0:12:23 > 0:12:26respect, are more comparable to the Palestinian, so I think that
0:12:26 > 0:12:32important lessons to be learned, that these problems don't go way, it
0:12:32 > 0:12:39afters many countries in the region. I am struck about why there isn't...
0:12:39 > 0:12:43This is genocide, textbook example of genocide. We are bystanders to
0:12:43 > 0:12:48the genocide and we cannot allow this to continue, this is not ethnic
0:12:48 > 0:12:52cleansing, this has been dehewn anisation, over an entire group of
0:12:52 > 0:12:57people. If they go back, if they are forcibly reat the rated they will go
0:12:57 > 0:13:04back, they will die and this will continue. Thank you both very much.
0:13:04 > 0:13:06It's been around 36 hours since yesterday's Budget,
0:13:06 > 0:13:08but in the past we've seen plenty of them collapse completely
0:13:08 > 0:13:12in that kind of time-frame.
0:13:12 > 0:13:15Remember George Osborne's omnishambles Budget in 2012?
0:13:15 > 0:13:17And Philip Hammond's u-turn over National Insurance
0:13:17 > 0:13:20contributions earlier this year?
0:13:20 > 0:13:23Well, let's get the day after reflections from
0:13:23 > 0:13:25our trio of editors - Nick Watt, Helen Thomas
0:13:25 > 0:13:27and Chris Cook.
0:13:27 > 0:13:32The three wise men and women who come bearing graphs.
0:13:32 > 0:13:42Good evening.Do we think he got away with that? Just about. So far?
0:13:42 > 0:13:47They seem quite pleased with the response, they felt they got away
0:13:47 > 0:13:50with that?Want to worry this afternoon said that Parliament felt
0:13:50 > 0:13:54like the Mary Celeste, there was nothing for them to do so they went
0:13:54 > 0:13:58back to the constituencies, there was no feeling of plotting. This
0:13:58 > 0:14:04Budget landed as well as it could, given that dramatic downgrade in the
0:14:04 > 0:14:08economic forecast. Relations between Number 10 a number 11 have been
0:14:08 > 0:14:11difficult but from Number 10 I am hearing words like they are pleased
0:14:11 > 0:14:14with this, if ordered landed well and that it was transparent about
0:14:14 > 0:14:19the real challenges from that downgrade that Helen will be talking
0:14:19 > 0:14:23about. The Prime Minister was on a visit with Philip Hammond earlier
0:14:23 > 0:14:28today and it looks pretty much like he has got a reprieve. She was asked
0:14:28 > 0:14:32a simple question, is his job is safe? Yes, he did a good job in the
0:14:32 > 0:14:41Budget!All peace and harmony, let us talk about the economics. What is
0:14:41 > 0:14:47the headline of the day?Yesterday we had these big downgrades,
0:14:47 > 0:14:50productivity growth, economic growth and the knock-on effect on borrowing
0:14:50 > 0:14:56and today the focus was on what that means in people's pockets. Look at
0:14:56 > 0:14:59this chart from the Institute for Fiscal Studies and this was the talk
0:14:59 > 0:15:04of the day, average annual earnings, adjusted for inflation, this blue
0:15:04 > 0:15:09line, you can see the peak before the financial crisis, the big drop
0:15:09 > 0:15:18and partial recovery. In March 2016, on this next line, the official
0:15:18 > 0:15:24forecasts, nice, steady recovery. By 2021 we are back more or less. We
0:15:24 > 0:15:30have caught up, yes. The latest forecasts... The Green line. Very
0:15:30 > 0:15:34different picture, flat out, modest recovery.Has anybody extrapolated
0:15:34 > 0:15:41that line to see when it gets back to where we were?The two things are
0:15:41 > 0:15:52the gaps, 2021, the gap is about £1400. That has been forecast. And
0:15:52 > 0:15:562023, we are nowhere near back to that peak so that is already 15
0:15:56 > 0:16:01years of lost earnings growth and this is buying power, living
0:16:01 > 0:16:05standards. This is what really matters to people.A lot of people
0:16:05 > 0:16:10have said that this is all Brexit? This is not Brexit and it is
0:16:10 > 0:16:14important to say that. Actually, what is baked into these forecasts
0:16:14 > 0:16:19about Brexit is quite smooth because...They have to make a bunch
0:16:19 > 0:16:25of assumptions.The other thing to say is these are forecasts and
0:16:25 > 0:16:28economists do occasionally get the numbers wrong.Maybe the fact that
0:16:28 > 0:16:33they have told us to carry an umbrella, the sun will shine...The
0:16:33 > 0:16:39fact that this is baked into the official forecasts just reflects
0:16:39 > 0:16:41that the productivity, earnings, living standards, this is a
0:16:41 > 0:16:45long-term problem and a real challenge.Chris, you were speaking
0:16:45 > 0:16:50to us yesterday about the NHS and its difficulties, what are the
0:16:50 > 0:16:56options to make life within the Budget they have got?The NHS in
0:16:56 > 0:17:00England is not like other government departments, it has its own Chief
0:17:00 > 0:17:04Executive and board that are not the government, they are independent and
0:17:04 > 0:17:10they have this big thing every year, the NHS mandate, a list of targets,
0:17:10 > 0:17:13and are going to decide next week that they cannot meet their targets
0:17:13 > 0:17:20and do what they are paid to. One example... One of the targets is the
0:17:20 > 0:17:24RTD target, which says that from a referral to getting to treatment, it
0:17:24 > 0:17:33should be no longer than 18 weeks and they think this will cost 2- £3
0:17:33 > 0:17:40billion.We are missing that target. £2 billion to get back in? To bring
0:17:40 > 0:17:45the backlog back down and then half a billion every year to keep that
0:17:45 > 0:17:51under control. They only have £1.6 billion extra next year so they
0:17:51 > 0:17:55cannot do that one target, let alone all of them. Next week will be all
0:17:55 > 0:17:59about which targets we meet in which we do not, they will not say
0:17:59 > 0:18:06something like, we will no longer do hips or cancer treatment, this is
0:18:06 > 0:18:11the differing of spending and it is going to say, your quality of care
0:18:11 > 0:18:20will decline but the speed will decline, that is the conversation.
0:18:20 > 0:18:23Looking ahead, presumably the government think we have managed to
0:18:23 > 0:18:27stabilise a patient that is this government, it is OK, I'll be
0:18:27 > 0:18:36hoping...It has been Theresa May's horrible year, the Budget and the
0:18:36 > 0:18:40general election backfiring and conference speech and this is the
0:18:40 > 0:18:46big thing that is so far going well. Is this a turning point? She has two
0:18:46 > 0:18:51big challenges, as Chris said, she has to not have a winter fuel crisis
0:18:51 > 0:18:58and candles Brexit negotiations move onto the next stage, future trade
0:18:58 > 0:19:01transition, the Prime Minister has seen -- is singing Donald Tusk
0:19:01 > 0:19:05tomorrow and that is the beginning of a process over the next ten days
0:19:05 > 0:19:08with the UK will outline the extra money it is putting on the table.
0:19:08 > 0:19:15Will be Irish Prime Minister dig in and if so, and the EU still listens,
0:19:15 > 0:19:19maybe he could hold up progress. Plenty of action. Thank you all very
0:19:19 > 0:19:22much indeed.
0:19:22 > 0:19:25A right old fuss has been brewing over the last few days
0:19:25 > 0:19:26on the subject of animal welfare.
0:19:26 > 0:19:28And as with any story concerning animals, it has
0:19:28 > 0:19:30attracted enormous interest, particularly on social media
0:19:30 > 0:19:31and in some online forums.
0:19:31 > 0:19:33Now, we all love animals, but the question about
0:19:33 > 0:19:36the controversy over the last few days is whether it is all
0:19:36 > 0:19:37based on a falsehood.
0:19:37 > 0:19:38Fake news.
0:19:38 > 0:19:41MPs debating the Brexit Bill didn't vote to carry an EU treaty
0:19:41 > 0:19:47provision recognising animals as sentient beings.
0:19:47 > 0:19:50Does it tell us anything about MPs or animals,
0:19:50 > 0:19:53or about the tendency in this age towards fevered and
0:19:53 > 0:19:57uninformed argument?
0:19:57 > 0:19:59Here's the headline that captures the row.
0:19:59 > 0:20:01Here's another.
0:20:01 > 0:20:04MPs voted that animals cannot feel pain.
0:20:04 > 0:20:06Items like these have quite reasonably been
0:20:06 > 0:20:12shared millions of times.
0:20:12 > 0:20:14Because most of us - sentient human beings -
0:20:14 > 0:20:20have seen a pet dog and can testify that, yes, animals do feel pain, do
0:20:20 > 0:20:25have strong feelings of attachment and are capable of emotions.
0:20:25 > 0:20:27They have simple tastes and are easily fulfilled
0:20:27 > 0:20:31by simple activities, such as retrieving a ball.
0:20:31 > 0:20:34Dogs are clearly sentient beings.
0:20:34 > 0:20:36Cats less so.
0:20:36 > 0:20:38But even they have emotions, apparently, and are just less keen
0:20:38 > 0:20:41to express them publicly.
0:20:41 > 0:20:45So what were MPs thinking in voting that animals can't feel pain?
0:20:45 > 0:20:48Well, it turns out that they didn't.
0:20:48 > 0:20:51They, too, have feelings and mostly appear to believe animals
0:20:51 > 0:20:53are sentient beings.
0:20:53 > 0:20:56They simply voted against registering animal sentience
0:20:56 > 0:21:00in the Brexit Bill, lifting it from the EU Lisbon Treaty.
0:21:00 > 0:21:02No need, said the Government.
0:21:02 > 0:21:06It's already effectively covered here.
0:21:06 > 0:21:09I can reassure the Honourable Lady that it is already recognised
0:21:09 > 0:21:11as a matter of domestic law here, primarily in the Animal
0:21:11 > 0:21:14Welfare Act 2006.
0:21:14 > 0:21:17If an animal is capable of experiencing pain and suffering,
0:21:17 > 0:21:19it is sentient and under the Animal Welfare Act
0:21:19 > 0:21:22it is therefore afforded protection.
0:21:22 > 0:21:26So the argument was not about animal sentience at all -
0:21:26 > 0:21:29it was a legal row about how to enshrine it.
0:21:29 > 0:21:31That is still an open question.
0:21:31 > 0:21:35But protests against the Tories have taken off, as though MPs have voted
0:21:35 > 0:21:38to slaughter puppies.
0:21:38 > 0:21:40Sue Perkins had a go at it on Twitter.
0:21:40 > 0:21:43"MPs denying what is obvious", she said.
0:21:43 > 0:21:44"Resist".
0:21:44 > 0:21:45Ben Fogle did, too.
0:21:45 > 0:21:47He has now apologised.
0:21:47 > 0:21:51But if you did fall for the wrong idea that MPs thought
0:21:51 > 0:21:58animals didn't feel pain, well, you would be angry.
0:21:58 > 0:22:01Well, Tory MPs are terrified of that anger, and Michael Gove,
0:22:01 > 0:22:05who is responsible for this area, clarified again today in a written
0:22:05 > 0:22:10answer that the "Government will ensure animal sentience
0:22:10 > 0:22:13is recognised after we leave the EU".
0:22:13 > 0:22:15But he said the "Brexit Withdrawal Bill is not the right
0:22:15 > 0:22:18place to address this".
0:22:18 > 0:22:20Well, I'm joined by Sue Hayman from Cumbria.
0:22:20 > 0:22:22She is Labour's Michael Gove - Shadow Defra Secretary.
0:22:22 > 0:22:24Robert Courts is a Conservative MP and represents the
0:22:24 > 0:22:33constituency of Witney.
0:22:33 > 0:22:40Have you had a public response?Lots of the Neales, clearly something
0:22:40 > 0:22:45people care about.Do you feel it is based on a falsehood, that you have
0:22:45 > 0:22:48been unfairly maligned?I would not say falsehood but there is
0:22:48 > 0:22:53misunderstanding. You are right in the beginning of that piece, this is
0:22:53 > 0:22:58a drafting issue and if you read the text of article 13 and the new
0:22:58 > 0:23:01clause 30, it becomes clear the context is around European
0:23:01 > 0:23:06legislation and it simply will not work if we left that...Why not?
0:23:06 > 0:23:11What is the legal problem about taking this thing from Article 13
0:23:11 > 0:23:16that recognises animals are sentience, and putting it into UK
0:23:16 > 0:23:21law so we have a provision that says animals are sentience?Because the
0:23:21 > 0:23:26context is about being an EU member state, it doesn't make sense if you
0:23:26 > 0:23:32are not in the EU. Of course, animals are sentience, there is no
0:23:32 > 0:23:38doubt.Do any of your colleagues not believe that?No MP believes that,
0:23:38 > 0:23:43they clearly feel pain, what is behind this, the intention of making
0:23:43 > 0:23:47clear that animals can suffer, we should have a protection but this is
0:23:47 > 0:23:52not the right way to do it.We can draft it ourselves. Have you brought
0:23:52 > 0:23:56this on yourselves by killing badgers and supporting hunting or a
0:23:56 > 0:24:00free vote on hunting, which raises the possibility of hunting
0:24:00 > 0:24:04returning?I don't think so, this is just a misunderstanding on a
0:24:04 > 0:24:10drafting error.But killing badgers is real, that is not a drafting
0:24:10 > 0:24:16error?Sure, but this is a government... That is your policy?
0:24:16 > 0:24:20For scientific reasons. Scientists did not think it was a great idea
0:24:20 > 0:24:23and you went ahead anyway.This government has done more for animal
0:24:23 > 0:24:28welfare than any government for a very long time, banning ivory and
0:24:28 > 0:24:33increasing the sentences for animal cruelty, mandatory CCTV in slaughter
0:24:33 > 0:24:37houses. It has been years since any government has done as much.But in
0:24:37 > 0:24:44the manifesto, when there was a provision for a free vote on
0:24:44 > 0:24:49hunting, a lot of people, not a huge mainstream media issue, but a lot of
0:24:49 > 0:24:54social media was very exercised by that provision and you did notice
0:24:54 > 0:25:00that?Of course, British people care very much about animals and that is
0:25:00 > 0:25:03another issue that was controversial but that should not take away from
0:25:03 > 0:25:08our excellent record, nor does it have anything to do with this
0:25:08 > 0:25:19clause...Steve Hayman, can we just agree... That no MP has been exposed
0:25:19 > 0:25:24as not believing that animals are sentient beings? That there is any
0:25:24 > 0:25:30suggestion that Tory MPs do not believe animals feel pain, that is
0:25:30 > 0:25:36pure nonsense?Everyone would accept that animals suffer and feel pain
0:25:36 > 0:25:43but the point is, Michael Gove has said we do not need to bring this
0:25:43 > 0:25:47legislation into UK law because of the animal welfare act which covers
0:25:47 > 0:25:51at what what the animal welfare act does not say is that animals are
0:25:51 > 0:25:56sentient, which is why we need to bring this into UK law.I just want
0:25:56 > 0:26:00to be 100% clear, that you are condemning all the suggestions on
0:26:00 > 0:26:06social media that have portrayed Tory MPs as having voted that
0:26:06 > 0:26:11animals do not feel pain? A lot of that has been said and you think
0:26:11 > 0:26:16that is nonsense, Robert Courts believes no MP believes that and you
0:26:16 > 0:26:25except that?I think we all know that.A lot of this debate has been
0:26:25 > 0:26:30based on a misunderstanding. Sue Perkins, that tweet was based on a
0:26:30 > 0:26:35misunderstanding. Haven't you been using that misunderstanding?I think
0:26:35 > 0:26:38if animals feel suffering, if Conservative MPs appreciate that
0:26:38 > 0:26:43then they should have supported our amendment and should have brought
0:26:43 > 0:26:48article 13 into UK law.Hang on, in the Commons they explained perfectly
0:26:48 > 0:26:53clearly that it was not a matter of other animals are sentient or not,
0:26:53 > 0:26:59on the 18th of October it was said in the Commons, we are exploring how
0:26:59 > 0:27:02the animal sentience principle of article 13 can be reflected in the
0:27:02 > 0:27:07UK. Oliver Letwin said we need to talk about new clauses, what they
0:27:07 > 0:27:11are aiming at and how best to achieve it because it is a
0:27:11 > 0:27:17disagreement about, not one of end spot means. Yet this debate has
0:27:17 > 0:27:24taken off as though it is about animal pain?Most of the appeal bill
0:27:24 > 0:27:30is to bring existing EU legislation into UK law and there are only a
0:27:30 > 0:27:33small number of things that have been taken out by the government,
0:27:33 > 0:27:37animal sentience is one of them and other environmental protections. The
0:27:37 > 0:27:42question is, why remove it when you can bring it in and have this in law
0:27:42 > 0:27:45without having to go through the rigmarole of creating new
0:27:45 > 0:27:48legislation? That means we have to trust the government to do that
0:27:48 > 0:27:51whereas if they just bring it straight back, that is the problem
0:27:51 > 0:27:57solved.Do you except Michael Gove's pledge, in written answers today he
0:27:57 > 0:28:02said we will sort this out because it is not our intention to treat
0:28:02 > 0:28:06animals as non-sentient beings. Do you accept this will be enshrined in
0:28:06 > 0:28:12UK law in some form or other but not the Brexit Bill?What concerns me is
0:28:12 > 0:28:17Michael Gove has said a lot about animal welfare and the environment
0:28:17 > 0:28:19yet the two areas where the important legislation that underpins
0:28:19 > 0:28:23the principles underpinning animal welfare and the environment in the
0:28:23 > 0:28:30Brexit Bill have been removed from the legislation. I think we should
0:28:30 > 0:28:34be judged on what we do, not just what we say.Shouldn't the principle
0:28:34 > 0:28:38be judged on what it does? The animal sentience principle is
0:28:38 > 0:28:45written into the treaty yet there is foie gras in France and
0:28:45 > 0:28:48bull-fighting in Spain, our welfare standards are much higher!But this
0:28:48 > 0:28:54underpins the ability to build on animal welfare, the RSPCA and the
0:28:54 > 0:28:56British veterinary Association are very concerned that article 13 has
0:28:56 > 0:29:02been removed and the RSPCA basically says there are areas of animal
0:29:02 > 0:29:05welfare improvement that they do not believe would have happened if it
0:29:05 > 0:29:10was not for article 13. For example, the banning of the battery cages,
0:29:10 > 0:29:16the banning of animal testing in cosmetics, banning importing
0:29:16 > 0:29:22products. They see this as an important part of legislation.
0:29:22 > 0:29:26If Donald Trump let it run round social media for his end, you would
0:29:26 > 0:29:31be the first to be decrying fake news anon sense, wouldn't you? Yet
0:29:31 > 0:29:34when it is on your side you are happy to use this misunderstanding
0:29:34 > 0:29:40of whether the Tories have voted against animals or voted against the
0:29:40 > 0:29:43particular legislative proposal, willing to use that, to get your
0:29:43 > 0:29:47particular view of how the legislation should be seen.I
0:29:47 > 0:29:53haven't misused anything.All I have said is it is important the
0:29:53 > 0:29:56Government supports our amendment and brings article 13 into UK law.
0:29:56 > 0:30:00It a critical part of our legislation.
0:30:00 > 0:30:02Thank you very much indeed. Thank you both.
0:30:02 > 0:30:03Thank you both.
0:30:03 > 0:30:07You might have heard of Fancy Bear - a Russian hacking group with a long
0:30:07 > 0:30:10history of cyber-espionage.
0:30:10 > 0:30:11Experts say it was involved in the attack on the theft
0:30:11 > 0:30:13of Democratic Party emails in the run-up to the US
0:30:13 > 0:30:14election last year.
0:30:14 > 0:30:16Also in the release of information about Bradley Wiggins'
0:30:16 > 0:30:20therapeutic use exemptions.
0:30:20 > 0:30:23It is hard to find out much about these hacking groups -
0:30:23 > 0:30:25they don't self-publicise.
0:30:25 > 0:30:28But with the PM programme on Radio 4, we've obtained exclusive insight
0:30:28 > 0:30:30into some of the operations of Fancy Bear.
0:30:30 > 0:30:32Our story begins not in Moscow or Washington,
0:30:32 > 0:30:33but somewhere much closer to home.
0:30:33 > 0:30:43Chris Vallance reports.
0:30:46 > 0:30:47When you think of international computer espionage,
0:30:47 > 0:30:49what locations spring to mind?
0:30:49 > 0:30:50Moscow?
0:30:50 > 0:30:52Washington?
0:30:52 > 0:30:54London?
0:30:54 > 0:30:56What about a terraced street?
0:30:56 > 0:30:59A corner shop in Oldham?
0:30:59 > 0:31:02It's the kind of place you might pop in for some
0:31:02 > 0:31:05cigarettes or a pint of milk.
0:31:05 > 0:31:07More Coronation Street than le Carre.
0:31:07 > 0:31:10Yet this place, through no fault of its own, has a connection
0:31:10 > 0:31:12to international cyber espionage.
0:31:12 > 0:31:14In 2012, an unlikely set of characters visited an online
0:31:14 > 0:31:15business registered to this area.
0:31:15 > 0:31:18They weren't customers after groceries, they were
0:31:18 > 0:31:21international hackers, linked to Russian intelligence.
0:31:21 > 0:31:26They were visiting a business called Crookservers.
0:31:26 > 0:31:30The hackers were from a group called Fancy Bear, whose
0:31:30 > 0:31:34targets include government, military and security organisations.
0:31:34 > 0:31:37They would visit Crookservers' website to rent computers
0:31:37 > 0:31:44used in their attacks.
0:31:44 > 0:31:51Experts say Fancy Bear's aim was to change the way we think.
0:31:51 > 0:31:53There are a lot of Russian cyber groups that engage
0:31:53 > 0:31:55in traditional espionage, so the theft of political
0:31:55 > 0:31:59and military information.
0:31:59 > 0:32:01What makes this Russian group particularly notable is they also
0:32:01 > 0:32:03appear to participate in what we call active measures,
0:32:03 > 0:32:06which is the Russian notion of using cyber and other means
0:32:06 > 0:32:08to influence popular opinion in the advancement
0:32:08 > 0:32:09of their strategic interests.
0:32:09 > 0:32:10Crookservers was a purely virtual business that
0:32:10 > 0:32:11rented out, well, servers.
0:32:11 > 0:32:14It was all online, it never physically owned the machines.
0:32:14 > 0:32:17In early 2012, it briefly claimed to be based at the newsagents
0:32:17 > 0:32:19in its website registration documents, but no-one at the corner
0:32:19 > 0:32:23shop had ever heard of it.
0:32:23 > 0:32:25Where Crookservers was physically based is a tricky question.
0:32:25 > 0:32:29The online business could have been run from a laptop, but however small
0:32:29 > 0:32:36it was it was popular with Fancy Bear.
0:32:36 > 0:32:38This Russian hacking group clearly liked using that service provider
0:32:38 > 0:32:41because they had gone back on a number of occasions
0:32:41 > 0:32:43to hire new servers, and lease new computers,
0:32:43 > 0:32:45so I think it shows that was a service provider
0:32:45 > 0:32:48they were keen to use and they felt safe using them, which is
0:32:48 > 0:32:50interesting in itself, I think.
0:32:50 > 0:32:52One of the computers leased from Crookservers under
0:32:52 > 0:32:54the pseudonym Nikolay Mladenov features in computer
0:32:54 > 0:33:04code used to attack the German Parliament in 2015.
0:33:13 > 0:33:15Claudia Haydt was the first person to notice the attack
0:33:15 > 0:33:16on the Bundestag.
0:33:16 > 0:33:19They sent out an e-mail which supposedly was sent by a UN,
0:33:19 > 0:33:21United Nations organisation, and this e-mail had an attachment
0:33:21 > 0:33:24with reports of the situation in Ukraine, or supposedly it had
0:33:24 > 0:33:25an attachment like this.
0:33:25 > 0:33:26I tried to open it.
0:33:26 > 0:33:29I found out it didn't work and I forgot about it,
0:33:29 > 0:33:30only later remembered there is this problem.
0:33:30 > 0:33:33Of course I thought it was rather serious if a computer
0:33:33 > 0:33:42in the Bundestag might be victim of an attack by some Trojan virus.
0:33:42 > 0:33:44Then the news comes out that this is a Russian
0:33:44 > 0:33:46linked group, Fancy Bear.
0:33:46 > 0:33:50When that news broke, what did you think?
0:33:50 > 0:33:53Well, yes, it could be Russian, it could be someone else.
0:33:53 > 0:33:56Yes, there are a lot of clues which are pointing to Russia,
0:33:56 > 0:33:59because a lot of the software used in the hack was already used
0:33:59 > 0:34:02by other confirmed Russian attacks, for example in US, and actually
0:34:02 > 0:34:04we still don't know what kind of documents had been downloaded
0:34:04 > 0:34:06or uploaded in this case, to somewhere else.
0:34:06 > 0:34:16We don't know what happened to really sensitive papers.
0:34:23 > 0:34:25Crookservers closed in October 10th of this year.
0:34:25 > 0:34:27Internet records its last business address was in Pakistan.
0:34:27 > 0:34:30But we have traced the company back to an individual whose social media
0:34:30 > 0:34:40profiles show lived in the Oldham area until around about 2014.
0:34:43 > 0:34:45His name is Usman Ashraf.
0:34:45 > 0:34:47Ashraf, who is now based in Pakistan, only communicated
0:34:47 > 0:34:49with us via e-mail, but he did provide detailed
0:34:49 > 0:34:50answers to questions.
0:34:50 > 0:34:52He said he didn't know his customers were hackers.
0:34:52 > 0:34:55He provided evidence that when in 2015 he was first alerted
0:34:55 > 0:34:57to the use of Crookservers by Fancy Bear he swiftly
0:34:57 > 0:35:02kicked them out.
0:35:02 > 0:35:04Lawyers say what he was doing wasn't necessarily illegal.
0:35:04 > 0:35:07And Ashraf's answers to our questions helped expose a web
0:35:07 > 0:35:09of financial transactions, fake identities and cyber attacks
0:35:09 > 0:35:15linked to the hackers.
0:35:15 > 0:35:17Mike McLellan says that what we have learned allows experts
0:35:17 > 0:35:22to connect together several different hacking operations.
0:35:22 > 0:35:25The information that has been received appears to suggest a link
0:35:25 > 0:35:27between the attack against the US Democratic Party in 2016,
0:35:27 > 0:35:30with operations against a Polish defence company, against a Bulgarian
0:35:30 > 0:35:31agency for national security, against the participants
0:35:31 > 0:35:41of the 2014 Farnborough airshow and against the Nigerian Government.
0:35:45 > 0:35:47What may have attracted the hackers to Crookservers,
0:35:47 > 0:35:51apart from its name, was it accepted payment
0:35:51 > 0:35:55using a number of hard to trace methods, including bitcoin.
0:35:55 > 0:35:58We were able to identify that payment to Crookservers came
0:35:58 > 0:35:59from a specific bitcoin wallet.
0:35:59 > 0:36:01That bitcoin wallet had received over 200 bitcoins
0:36:01 > 0:36:07round $100,000 at the time.
0:36:07 > 0:36:10That wallet in turn received funds from BTCE, a place where you can
0:36:10 > 0:36:12exchange bitcoins for cash, which Tom says was popular
0:36:12 > 0:36:15with Russian computer criminals, until it was shut down
0:36:15 > 0:36:21by US investigators.
0:36:21 > 0:36:24The indictment mentioned that over $4 billion worth of bitcoin
0:36:24 > 0:36:25were laundered through BTCE.
0:36:25 > 0:36:31Much of it transferred into Russian roubles.
0:36:31 > 0:36:33I understand there are other clues to be found in financial information
0:36:33 > 0:36:35from Crookservers that hint as Russian connections.
0:36:35 > 0:36:38We have seen no evidence BTCE knew it was being used to fund hackers.
0:36:38 > 0:36:42We have also seen no evidence that the shop in Oldham had any
0:36:42 > 0:36:45actual connection to Crookservers, although through Ashraf
0:36:45 > 0:36:51there is a clear link to the area.
0:36:51 > 0:36:53So in the end what have we learned?
0:36:53 > 0:36:55We have obtained a unique window into a Russian
0:36:55 > 0:36:58linked hacking operation, a window that has enabled us to join
0:36:58 > 0:36:59together a number of different campaigns identified
0:36:59 > 0:37:03by the security industry.
0:37:03 > 0:37:06We have seen the hackers were well organised and they were well funded.
0:37:06 > 0:37:08And the financial information points, once again,
0:37:08 > 0:37:09in the direction of Russia.
0:37:09 > 0:37:11It is a hacking campaign that has no lesser aim
0:37:11 > 0:37:13than to influence word events.
0:37:13 > 0:37:23It's a hacking campaign that continues to this day.
0:37:25 > 0:37:28On Monday, news came that two big EU regulatory agencies in London
0:37:28 > 0:37:29are being moved offshore to Paris and Amsterdam.
0:37:29 > 0:37:30A disappointment to London.
0:37:30 > 0:37:33But it was interesting, of course, that Britain's allocated EU
0:37:33 > 0:37:40institutions were both in London in the first place.
0:37:40 > 0:37:42But today, disappointing Brexit news came for five other cities -
0:37:42 > 0:37:45they'd been competing to be European City of Culture 2023.
0:37:45 > 0:37:47The EU Commission said they are ineligible because we will
0:37:47 > 0:37:52no longer be a member state.
0:37:52 > 0:37:55Were we stupid to think we might be part of the City
0:37:55 > 0:37:56of Culture game once we leave?
0:37:56 > 0:37:58Or is the Commission being unreasonable?
0:37:58 > 0:38:00I'm with Rosie Millard, who is Chair of Hull -
0:38:00 > 0:38:02the UK City of Culture 2017.
0:38:02 > 0:38:11She is also on the selection panel for the European City of Culture.
0:38:11 > 0:38:17I presume it was.You mean capital of dull culture.Because it has gone
0:38:17 > 0:38:23now. You were going to choose one of the five cities.Look at the care
0:38:23 > 0:38:30that has gone into it. Our place, that was Belfast.I am puzzle as to
0:38:30 > 0:38:35how it got this far, we voted to leave some time ago, how could it
0:38:35 > 0:38:39have got this far would us realising?It must have been on
0:38:39 > 0:38:44their Risk Register, they must have had this anxiety this could happen,
0:38:44 > 0:38:49but never believe it would happen because there is precedent, you
0:38:49 > 0:38:54know, cities of one Culture, Media and Sport, from countries which are
0:38:54 > 0:38:59not in the EU, like Norway, Capital of Culture, there is even I think it
0:38:59 > 0:39:03is Prague, yes, was the Capital of Culture before the Czech Republic
0:39:03 > 0:39:08was in the EU, so there is precedent.And down with 23They put
0:39:08 > 0:39:14a lot of money into the bid.It is preallocated as Britain's year.And
0:39:14 > 0:39:19I may say that Britain was the country that really brought the
0:39:19 > 0:39:25Capital of Culture into being, because before Glasgow won it in
0:39:25 > 0:39:301990, the Capital of Culture went to places like Florence and Paris,
0:39:30 > 0:39:35which didn't need it. Glasgow got it in 1990 and the city was
0:39:35 > 0:39:41transformed. It rebranded it. It, I think you can draw a direct line to
0:39:41 > 0:39:45hosting the Commonwealth Game, equally Liverpool, you know, brought
0:39:45 > 0:39:50an astonishing amount of wealth and tourism. What happened was after
0:39:50 > 0:39:54Glasgow it weventry year to a city that really needed it. So we made it
0:39:54 > 0:39:58the success story.What I want to know, were we stupid to think, we
0:39:58 > 0:40:04are leaving, if you leave you don't get to play in the game, do you, are
0:40:04 > 0:40:08the Commission being unreasonable in interpreting the rules?I think this
0:40:08 > 0:40:12is EU Commission throwing its toys out a big European shaped cot. They
0:40:12 > 0:40:18didn't need to do that. This is one of the joys, it is is a joyous
0:40:18 > 0:40:21thing, in Hull people are walking round, it is joyous, the Hull
0:40:21 > 0:40:27phenomenon is not the EU, it is the UK but it is the same idea, and you
0:40:27 > 0:40:29know, the creative industries federation where I work, we have
0:40:29 > 0:40:32done a lot of scoping on what will happen to the creative industries if
0:40:32 > 0:40:36there is a hard Brexit, if Brexit happens an it will hit the creative
0:40:36 > 0:40:41industries very very hard, because here a lot of creative British
0:40:41 > 0:40:45people live and work in the EU.We interpret it as very hard.There is
0:40:45 > 0:40:49a lot of flexibility, freedom of movement is needed. It is not
0:40:49 > 0:40:53special pleading, this is is a big, important factor in the UK economy
0:40:53 > 0:40:56and jobs. Which one was going to win out of
0:40:56 > 0:41:01the five?I couldn't say, they were all marvellous. No, you know, I
0:41:01 > 0:41:06might...You might as well award it It might come back in some form and
0:41:06 > 0:41:10what might happen is that the collegiate community effort that has
0:41:10 > 0:41:15gone into this might stick round. There might be good results.
0:41:15 > 0:41:22Something good might come out of it. It is good stuff.
0:41:22 > 0:41:26The Sun has Harry popped the question? Bookies suspend engagement
0:41:26 > 0:41:30bet, there is a question mark, they can't say he has but they are
0:41:30 > 0:41:35thinking it. The Mail, on the bottom right hand corner, what do they
0:41:35 > 0:41:39know? The bookies stopped taking bet, are we poised for something
0:41:39 > 0:41:42there. That is almost it.
0:41:42 > 0:41:45But before we go, it's now been five years since British war photographer
0:41:45 > 0:41:47John Cantlie was kidnapped in Syria alongside American
0:41:47 > 0:41:49journalist James Foley.
0:41:49 > 0:41:53Cantlie is one of more than 20 journalists still believed to be
0:41:53 > 0:41:56held captive by so-called Islamic State.
0:41:56 > 0:41:57His current whereabouts are not known.
0:41:57 > 0:42:00To mark this anniversary, we leave you with a montage
0:42:00 > 0:42:03of photos he took in Libya, Afghanistan and Syria.
0:42:03 > 0:42:10Goodnight.