0:00:04 > 0:00:09The border between North and South in Ireland.
0:00:09 > 0:00:15Is this where Theresa May's vision for Brexit becomes unstuck?
0:00:15 > 0:00:18It's the issue with the power to disrupt -
0:00:18 > 0:00:20Britain is leaving the EU, partly to get control of its borders
0:00:20 > 0:00:29- but can that be squared with a no-border solution in Ireland?
0:00:29 > 0:00:33If measures are put in place to control it again, whether that is
0:00:33 > 0:00:37remote-controlled cameras or customs officers, those could easily become
0:00:37 > 0:00:41the focus for protest or even violence, by those opposed to any
0:00:41 > 0:00:43tightening of control.
0:00:43 > 0:00:46The Irish Agriculture Minister tells us how the problem can be solved,
0:00:46 > 0:00:49and what happens if it isn't.
0:00:49 > 0:00:50President Trump retweets anti-Muslim hate videos
0:00:50 > 0:00:53from far right Britain First.
0:00:53 > 0:00:58Does getting shocked by that, just encourage him?
0:00:58 > 0:01:01Michael Stone - jailed for the murder of Lin and Megan Russell.
0:01:01 > 0:01:05But is it the biggest miscarriage of justice for decades?
0:01:05 > 0:01:07We'll hear about the arguments for re-examining the evidence
0:01:07 > 0:01:11for that conviction.
0:01:11 > 0:01:14And hope runs high as Zimbabwe considers a future without the long
0:01:14 > 0:01:17shadow of Robert Mugabe, but is it really all change,
0:01:17 > 0:01:21or simply as you were?
0:01:21 > 0:01:24President Mugabe, do you still like him or do you not like him?
0:01:24 > 0:01:28CROWD CHANTS "NO".
0:01:28 > 0:01:31We don't like Mugabe.
0:01:31 > 0:01:33Since long, you were afraid because if you were saying
0:01:33 > 0:01:43something negative about him, you would be butchered.
0:01:47 > 0:01:48Hello.
0:01:48 > 0:01:51The weather may be getting colder, but the Brexit process
0:01:51 > 0:01:52is hotting up.
0:01:52 > 0:01:55A European Council meeting in two weeks will decide whether Britain
0:01:55 > 0:01:56gets to the next level in the talks.
0:01:56 > 0:01:59That is, whether we get to discuss trade and our future relationship.
0:01:59 > 0:02:02We've made concessions on the money issue.
0:02:02 > 0:02:05Fair to say that's no impediment to moving on now.
0:02:05 > 0:02:07But there is still the not insignificant issue
0:02:07 > 0:02:08of the Irish border.
0:02:08 > 0:02:10It's a circle to be squared.
0:02:10 > 0:02:13The UK does not want to be in the Customs Union
0:02:13 > 0:02:15or the Single Market - but that would normally imply
0:02:15 > 0:02:19we have border with those who are.
0:02:19 > 0:02:25The land border between Northern Ireland and the Republic included.
0:02:25 > 0:02:27Everybody agrees that a border is not a good idea there -
0:02:27 > 0:02:30but no-one has really suggested how you avoid it in a way
0:02:30 > 0:02:32that is acceptable to everyone else.
0:02:32 > 0:02:34We'll hear from the Irish agriculture secretary shortly,
0:02:34 > 0:02:36but first our diplomatic editor, Mark Urban reports
0:02:36 > 0:02:42from the invisible border itself.
0:02:42 > 0:02:46This is how the modern lumber business is done.
0:02:46 > 0:02:48Load trees in one end.
0:02:48 > 0:02:52Get planks out of the other.
0:02:52 > 0:02:57The transformation takes just 12 minutes.
0:02:57 > 0:02:59It all runs with such sharp efficiency that the mill works
0:02:59 > 0:03:05day and night 365 days a year.
0:03:05 > 0:03:10This plant near Enniskillen in Northern Ireland,
0:03:10 > 0:03:15uses mainly logs from the Republic, put a hard border in the way
0:03:15 > 0:03:18of that, and all its precisely calculated margins would go awry.
0:03:18 > 0:03:22Now we have 23,000 cross-border commercial lorry movements every
0:03:22 > 0:03:26year and you can imagine how much time would be lost if we
0:03:26 > 0:03:32started to lose an hour or a half-hour of time on those.
0:03:32 > 0:03:35We have 300 direct employees here in Enniskillen.
0:03:35 > 0:03:40Maybe another 300 indirect.
0:03:40 > 0:03:43If we lost an hour a day, or an hour on each truck movement
0:03:43 > 0:03:46that would equate to 15 new people and the efficiency of the business
0:03:46 > 0:03:48would be badly impaired.
0:03:48 > 0:03:50Years of tranquillity and political progress here mean that
0:03:50 > 0:03:57in many places the border is barely discernible.
0:03:57 > 0:04:00So we're on the road here to Clones in County Fermanagh and this road
0:04:00 > 0:04:09actually passes the border four times in the space of ten minutes.
0:04:09 > 0:04:12This type of ease of traffic is the thing that is being
0:04:12 > 0:04:13threatened by current developments.
0:04:13 > 0:04:17So back in the Troubles, the army closed many border crossing
0:04:17 > 0:04:20points and people who want the border to carry on working
0:04:20 > 0:04:23in this very unrestricted way say that if measures are put in place
0:04:23 > 0:04:27to control it again, whether that is a controlled cameras
0:04:27 > 0:04:32or customs officers, those could easily become the focus
0:04:32 > 0:04:34for protest or even violence, by those opposed to any
0:04:34 > 0:04:37tightening of control.
0:04:42 > 0:04:48But with the EU heading for a summit, where two out of the three
0:04:48 > 0:04:52of its Brexit separation issues, money and citizens rights appeared
0:04:52 > 0:04:58to be close to resolution, the Irish border question has suddenly gained
0:04:58 > 0:05:02great power.This is the first time in the history of Anglo-Irish
0:05:02 > 0:05:05relations, when you have had conflict between Britain and
0:05:05 > 0:05:09Ireland, when Ireland has been the stronger position. It has never
0:05:09 > 0:05:12happened before. It is very unfamiliar territory for us to be
0:05:12 > 0:05:18in. And it is a huge challenge for Ireland, because we are not used to
0:05:18 > 0:05:22having that kind of power in our side of Anglo-Irish relations. And
0:05:22 > 0:05:26we have to use it really, really well. We have a fairly short period
0:05:26 > 0:05:33in which it can be used, and if it is used badly, it is a disaster for
0:05:33 > 0:05:38Ireland, but also for Britain, and that is no good for any of us.And
0:05:38 > 0:05:45if Ireland takes too strong a line, and contributes to a disorderly
0:05:45 > 0:05:49Brexit, one without an agreement, its economy would suffer terribly.
0:05:49 > 0:05:55Any sector or any company which has supplied chains which span the north
0:05:55 > 0:05:59and south, so there are a lot of complications for firms which they
0:05:59 > 0:06:03are beginning to grapple with, and beginning to look at in a more
0:06:03 > 0:06:07granular sense as they prepare for Brexit, but these will have real
0:06:07 > 0:06:15impact on companies, and potentially would be very disruptive.In Dublin,
0:06:15 > 0:06:19politicians want maximum concessions for business, while keeping peace in
0:06:19 > 0:06:24the form of the Good Friday Agreement in tact. But if their
0:06:24 > 0:06:26favoured solution, retaining Northern Ireland as part of the EU's
0:06:26 > 0:06:31customs union is to take flight, loyalists in the north will have to
0:06:31 > 0:06:37be convinced that that is not pushing them towards a united
0:06:37 > 0:06:40Ireland.The constitutional position can only be changed if there is a
0:06:40 > 0:06:44referendum and a united Ireland, and that is contained in the Good Friday
0:06:44 > 0:06:48Agreement. We are campaigning for that and we want to see that
0:06:48 > 0:06:52referendum and win that referendum. This is a practical measure.What
0:06:52 > 0:06:56can the UK say, short of keeping the North in the customs union, to
0:06:56 > 0:07:03convince Ireland it should allow Brexit talks to move on?We have not
0:07:03 > 0:07:06had sufficient detail from the UK Government will stop when it comes
0:07:06 > 0:07:08to the border, we had a fine speech from the Prime Minister in Florence
0:07:08 > 0:07:12and a lengthy paper but neither of which had any decent level of detail
0:07:12 > 0:07:16for the Irish government to put out a proposal in relation to a new
0:07:16 > 0:07:20customs union. We want to make sure we have something similar or
0:07:20 > 0:07:25advanced from the UK Government. Back in Fermanagh, what they want is
0:07:25 > 0:07:29a minimum of disruption to their supply chain, and a special status
0:07:29 > 0:07:34for the north that might not be called customs union, but could look
0:07:34 > 0:07:39remarkably similar to it. Solving the border issue will require some
0:07:39 > 0:07:43sort of special regime that is not such an example of Irish
0:07:43 > 0:07:49exceptionalism that it falls foul of the bureaucrats in Brussels. Ireland
0:07:49 > 0:07:54is using its window of opportunity to press the UK for answers, but
0:07:54 > 0:07:58with wider EU UK agreement apparently close, the pressure is
0:07:58 > 0:08:03being felt on both sides of the Irish border, for a workable road
0:08:03 > 0:08:07map to solve their issues.
0:08:07 > 0:08:11Nick Watt our political editor is here.
0:08:11 > 0:08:16Nick, it has been a busy couple of days with the money thing yesterday,
0:08:16 > 0:08:20Northern Ireland a lot of things to say there. Let's start on the money.
0:08:20 > 0:08:24Are we clear about where the deal is and what was promised?Yes, we said
0:08:24 > 0:08:28last night that the UK and EU have reached agreement on a framework,
0:08:28 > 0:08:32but if there is a written agreement you will not see of money written
0:08:32 > 0:08:35down, but I understand that if we get to that agreement, in the run-up
0:08:35 > 0:08:46to or at the
0:08:51 > 0:08:54European Council next month, the two sides will agree a figure. It will
0:08:54 > 0:08:57not be in writing and that figure will emerge. The UK view is that
0:08:57 > 0:08:59that figure will be between 40 to £45 billion, with an absolute cap
0:08:59 > 0:09:02that it cannot go above £45 billion, and that is 40 billion of money that
0:09:02 > 0:09:05is absolutely related to the EU, and what I'm told is a couple of extra
0:09:05 > 0:09:09billion in money that is not wholly definitively related to the EU but
0:09:09 > 0:09:14will essentially go into that pot. That is pounds. A lot of things we
0:09:14 > 0:09:21were talking yesterday was in Euros so billion euros. Northern Ireland.
0:09:21 > 0:09:26Does the UK Government believes it can see a way through?The UK
0:09:26 > 0:09:29Government believes this is the most serious issue. One source said they
0:09:29 > 0:09:34hoped to get there by the time of the summit but it is a gamble. I
0:09:34 > 0:09:38understand UK is planning a carrot and stick approach with Dublin. The
0:09:38 > 0:09:43stickers to say you claim that we are not abiding by the principles of
0:09:43 > 0:09:45the Good Friday Agreement. Actually, you are not abiding by it because
0:09:45 > 0:09:57what you're doing is slowly
0:10:00 > 0:10:02representing the nationalist community, which has real fears
0:10:02 > 0:10:05about Brexit. At the heart of the Good Friday Agreement is you need to
0:10:05 > 0:10:07take both communities with you, and unionists obviously voted mainly in
0:10:07 > 0:10:10favour of Leave in the referendum. That is the stick. The carrot is to
0:10:10 > 0:10:12say let's take the cooperation across the iron and of Ireland that
0:10:12 > 0:10:15is in the Good Friday Agreement, let's entrench them in this issue
0:10:15 > 0:10:22with the EU and two areas such as agriculture and the single energy
0:10:22 > 0:10:27market. What UK ministers will say is we reckon we could sell that to
0:10:27 > 0:10:32the DUP. The DUP, until earlier this year, was in government with Sinn
0:10:32 > 0:10:36Fein governing an all Ireland issues. We can sell that to them.
0:10:36 > 0:10:40What we cannot sell is putting a border between Northern Ireland and
0:10:40 > 0:10:45Great Britain down the Irish Sea. Thank you.
0:10:45 > 0:10:48We hear a lot of the British view - but earlier this evening,
0:10:48 > 0:10:50I spoke to Michael Creed, the Irish Agriculture Secretary.
0:10:50 > 0:10:53I started by asking him how the Irish border issue could be
0:10:53 > 0:10:56resolved in Brexit talks.
0:10:56 > 0:11:00Well, we have articulated what we believe is a reasonable position to
0:11:00 > 0:11:06resolve the issue. The UK has clearly set its face against that.
0:11:06 > 0:11:10Our suggestion was Northern Ireland should remain within the customs
0:11:10 > 0:11:19union and the single market.We know...What is clearly incumbent on
0:11:19 > 0:11:22Theresa May and her government, and her negotiating team, is to
0:11:22 > 0:11:26articulate and alternative which does not give rise to hard border,
0:11:26 > 0:11:31because everybody's agreed, we do not want a hard border. Not just for
0:11:31 > 0:11:35trade reasons, but because of the long lessons of history that we have
0:11:35 > 0:11:39learned to our great cost, not just financially but indeed at higher
0:11:39 > 0:11:46cost, over many, many years. The Good Friday Agreement, the single
0:11:46 > 0:11:48market and the customs union have facilitated a seamless border over
0:11:48 > 0:11:54many years. If the UK Government has clearly said No to a single market
0:11:54 > 0:11:58and customs union, it is clearly incumbent on the British government
0:11:58 > 0:12:04to articulate a way forward that enables us to have an invisible
0:12:04 > 0:12:08seamless border which they said they want.Let me put this to you.
0:12:08 > 0:12:12Suppose the British said we have a solution but it relies on checking
0:12:12 > 0:12:17one in 100 trucks as they go across the border, would that be acceptable
0:12:17 > 0:12:21to the Irish government?Well, you and I are not going to negotiate the
0:12:21 > 0:12:26detail of it. There are teams of negotiators on behalf of the UK
0:12:26 > 0:12:29Government and the Bynea negotiating teams. It is not a bilateral
0:12:29 > 0:12:33agreement between the Republic of Ireland and the UK, it is between
0:12:33 > 0:12:42the UK and the 27 member states. The 27 are rock solid. We need political
0:12:42 > 0:12:47solutions now and we're not getting their solutions.What if there was a
0:12:47 > 0:12:49big lorry parked inside Northern Ireland where some checks were made,
0:12:49 > 0:12:55does that constitute a physical border is unacceptable or is that
0:12:55 > 0:13:00compatible with the kind of no border rhetoric we are hearing?That
0:13:00 > 0:13:04is not compatible with an invisible seamless border. But it is an
0:13:04 > 0:13:09interesting premise to your question. The UK citizens, and I
0:13:09 > 0:13:12respect their vote, but voted to leave the EU but they did not in
0:13:12 > 0:13:16this city vote in the mentation of that decision to vote to leave the
0:13:16 > 0:13:21customs union or the single market. That is an entirely different
0:13:21 > 0:13:25interpretation of the issue. My concern is, with all of the
0:13:25 > 0:13:34historical connotations of the border, if they were to re-emerge,
0:13:34 > 0:13:37that is something which is violently destructive to the citizens of
0:13:37 > 0:13:39Northern Ireland, and that is why, also in the context of trade,
0:13:39 > 0:13:41anything that is an impediment to trade, no matter what political hack
0:13:41 > 0:13:48the web, is to the detriment of citizens north and south.Would your
0:13:48 > 0:13:52Prime Minister Leo Varadkar survived if he made significant concessions
0:13:52 > 0:13:56to the position you were describing? It is not a strong government in the
0:13:56 > 0:13:59Republic at the moment. Would he survived, would he be able to
0:13:59 > 0:14:09command Madrid to support if they made concessions? -- if he made
0:14:09 > 0:14:13concessions?I do not propose to speak for other parties but I am
0:14:13 > 0:14:19certain there is 100% agreement across the political divide on the
0:14:19 > 0:14:24issue of the border between the Republic and Northern Ireland. This
0:14:24 > 0:14:27is a really, really critical issue. It is far, far more important than
0:14:27 > 0:14:33the trade context between North and south on the island of Ireland. It
0:14:33 > 0:14:38has to do with the difficult historical lessons we have learnt,
0:14:38 > 0:14:42which have been born out of a hard border, and we certainly want to
0:14:42 > 0:14:48avoid that, and that is our primary motivation. Obviously, trade issues
0:14:48 > 0:14:51that arise and costs associated with the border are important, but they
0:14:51 > 0:14:57are secondary to the lessons of history.Thank you.
0:14:57 > 0:15:01So, if you didn't see the news, Donald Trump's morning Twitter flow
0:15:01 > 0:15:05included three retweets - each an anti-Muslim video posted
0:15:05 > 0:15:08by the deputy leader of the far right group Britain First.
0:15:08 > 0:15:10For example, one purported to show a Muslim migrant beating up
0:15:10 > 0:15:14a Dutch boy on crutches.
0:15:14 > 0:15:17The reaction to Trump sending out hate videos was immediate: Yvette
0:15:17 > 0:15:20Cooper, chair of the Home Affairs committee was typical.
0:15:20 > 0:15:22She said, "Couldn't have imagined there was anything left Trump
0:15:22 > 0:15:24could do to shock me.
0:15:24 > 0:15:27But promoting the views of a woman from a far right hate group
0:15:27 > 0:15:29is appalling".
0:15:29 > 0:15:33It raises an interesting question - for progressives or mainstream
0:15:33 > 0:15:37politicians, how should you react to Trump on a day like this?
0:15:37 > 0:15:39A question for us too.
0:15:39 > 0:15:43A day when a President breeches the norms that most citizens respect.
0:15:43 > 0:15:45Here's the dilemma.
0:15:45 > 0:15:49If Trump - or anyone - wants to get attention
0:15:49 > 0:15:52by doing things that annoy you, you don't want to reward
0:15:52 > 0:15:53their undesirable behaviour.
0:15:53 > 0:15:55So strategy number one is not to reward it.
0:15:55 > 0:15:58Avoid being shocked by President Trump, by not being shocked.
0:15:58 > 0:16:01Don't rise to the bait.
0:16:01 > 0:16:04The problem is, that a consequence of that is that then the abnormal
0:16:04 > 0:16:07can become normalised.
0:16:07 > 0:16:11If anti-Muslim videos are not your thing,
0:16:11 > 0:16:15especially those posted by Britain First's Jayda Fransen,
0:16:15 > 0:16:18then to passively watch a US president post them as though that's
0:16:18 > 0:16:20an everyday occurrence, implies that is an everyday occurrence.
0:16:20 > 0:16:21But it isn't.
0:16:21 > 0:16:24So if you don't want it be normalised, strategy two,
0:16:24 > 0:16:26is to be shocked by Trump tweets.
0:16:26 > 0:16:29Like Labour MP Chris Bryant who suggested Trump be arrested
0:16:29 > 0:16:33if he comes to the UK, for inciting racial hatred.
0:16:33 > 0:16:36The problem with expressing outrage, is that one suspects
0:16:36 > 0:16:38it is what President Trump wants.
0:16:38 > 0:16:43And it's certainly what Jayda Fransen wants.
0:16:43 > 0:16:47So is there a third way for those who find the whole
0:16:47 > 0:16:48hate thing distasteful?
0:16:48 > 0:16:49Neither rewarding it, nor ignoring it?
0:16:49 > 0:16:51I can think of only one.
0:16:51 > 0:16:53You react not with hate or division, but with love and understanding.
0:16:53 > 0:16:56You don't get angry - you follow the simplest advice
0:16:56 > 0:16:58of the Dalai Lama, "Be kind whenever possible.
0:16:58 > 0:17:02It is always possible" he said.
0:17:02 > 0:17:03To Muslims.
0:17:03 > 0:17:04And to Trump supporters.
0:17:04 > 0:17:07Is there anything else to be done?
0:17:07 > 0:17:10You may have your own ideas - but I'm joined by the Conservative
0:17:10 > 0:17:13MP Nadhim Zahawi was born in Iraq, and has previously spoken out
0:17:13 > 0:17:20against Trump's travel ban on majority Muslim countries.
0:17:20 > 0:17:26You have reacted in your own way, by writing a letter to him.I have
0:17:26 > 0:17:30written to him tonight to explain to him why I think he is wrong for
0:17:30 > 0:17:35re-tweeting those videos. Why many people in his administration, as
0:17:35 > 0:17:38well as ours, who work on counterterrorism, would be
0:17:38 > 0:17:44heartbroken because our work involves effectively combating the
0:17:44 > 0:17:50ideology of diversion or Al-Qaeda any hate group, far-right or any
0:17:50 > 0:17:57radical group. By effectively going the other way, by saying, what they
0:17:57 > 0:18:03are trying to do is dehumanise our values, to brainwash young men to
0:18:03 > 0:18:08blow themselves up. To participate in the same thing and dehumanise
0:18:08 > 0:18:13Muslims, I would want him to think again, delete those videos. I want
0:18:13 > 0:18:17him to come here so I can take him to Stratford-upon-Avon and
0:18:17 > 0:18:23Birmingham and London... And I have invited him, to try to educate him
0:18:23 > 0:18:28to the diversity, integration and how beautiful, as he would put it,
0:18:28 > 0:18:32our society is.I think he really needs to think hard tonight about
0:18:32 > 0:18:36his behaviour. Do you think he has not thought about this does not know
0:18:36 > 0:18:40what you are saying? Or needs to visit the UK to know that spreading
0:18:40 > 0:18:45hate is not a good way of fostering community relations? I wonder
0:18:45 > 0:18:51whether rationalising with the man is never going to work?I would like
0:18:51 > 0:18:57to think that he is probably naive to the fact that a lot of resources
0:18:57 > 0:19:02in the United States, human resources and financial, is going
0:19:02 > 0:19:06into combating this narrative, not just physically in Iraq, the Prime
0:19:06 > 0:19:11Minister was in Baghdad today, where we are taking on diversion
0:19:11 > 0:19:15militarily but the ideology is more important and to effectively
0:19:15 > 0:19:23dehumanise in the way they do, or that we, as he has done, is
0:19:23 > 0:19:29counter-productive and when he speaks to the secretary, his
0:19:29 > 0:19:34secretaries, he will know this.I would like to know the reply. What
0:19:34 > 0:19:39reaction does you want when he tweets this stuff? What reaction is
0:19:39 > 0:19:43he trying to get? To annoy, to distract from other things,
0:19:43 > 0:19:50attention?People who create these videos do it they try to target
0:19:50 > 0:19:57emotional heartstrings that are about hatred. It is a basic knee
0:19:57 > 0:20:05jerk reaction. Tribal? It is what terrorists use. They show videos of
0:20:05 > 0:20:09our society and they dehumanise it so that young men can be brainwashed
0:20:09 > 0:20:13and once you do that, you can do anything to a human being. That is
0:20:13 > 0:20:22what the Nazis did to the Jews. I think, dare I say it, he has naively
0:20:22 > 0:20:28bought into that narrative.Finally, we call Britain First a far right
0:20:28 > 0:20:32group, should be call him a far-right President?I don't think
0:20:32 > 0:20:40so, sometimes when he thinks about these things, he does say that he is
0:20:40 > 0:20:44the least racist human being and I would like to believe that, I would
0:20:44 > 0:20:51like him to come here and see how integrated, how peaceful and
0:20:51 > 0:20:56tolerant, we coexist, it is a wonderful place in England. And I
0:20:56 > 0:21:01need him to be here to see this because he is the holder of the
0:21:01 > 0:21:04office and the Prime Minister needs to work with the President and he
0:21:04 > 0:21:08happens to be that President so we have to go the extra mile to educate
0:21:08 > 0:21:13him.Thank you for coming in and we would like to see his reply.
0:21:13 > 0:21:16Two weeks and one day ago, the Zimbabwean army moved into Harare.
0:21:16 > 0:21:18We reported the armoured vehicle movements that day,
0:21:18 > 0:21:20perplexed as to what was going on.
0:21:20 > 0:21:21Was it a coup?
0:21:21 > 0:21:23Well, the question, "was it a coup" was never quite
0:21:23 > 0:21:24answered unambiguously.
0:21:24 > 0:21:27Certainly, President Robert Mugabe was soon out of office,
0:21:27 > 0:21:30but if it was a coup, it was unusual in that the army
0:21:30 > 0:21:32did its job peacefully, then went away again
0:21:32 > 0:21:33without installing one of its generals
0:21:33 > 0:21:34into the presidential palace.
0:21:34 > 0:21:37Gabriel Gatehouse has been in Zimbabwe for the last few days
0:21:37 > 0:21:39piecing together what exactly happened over the few days running
0:21:39 > 0:21:42up to President Mugabe's departure from office.
0:21:42 > 0:21:44And, working out whether there are grounds for optimism
0:21:44 > 0:21:48at the man who replaced him.
0:21:58 > 0:22:02It was Tuesday the 14th of November.
0:22:02 > 0:22:05Ignatius Chombo, Zimbabwe's Finance Minister, had gone to bed early
0:22:05 > 0:22:11at his home in the affluent suburbs of Harare.
0:22:11 > 0:22:13Some time after midnight, masked men, armed and wearing
0:22:13 > 0:22:19military fatigues, burst in and took him away.
0:22:19 > 0:22:24Now he's in hospital, purged from the party and under arrest.
0:22:24 > 0:22:28We've come to see if he can tell us his story.
0:22:28 > 0:22:31Thank you very much.
0:22:40 > 0:22:46Mr Chombo was on a bed behind a screen under armed guard.
0:22:46 > 0:22:51There are three soldiers in there saying get out.
0:22:55 > 0:22:58The following day, he appeared in court charged with corruption.
0:22:58 > 0:23:01But Mr Chombo's real difficulty now is his association
0:23:01 > 0:23:06with Zimbabwe's former First Lady.
0:23:06 > 0:23:10We've been hearing some really quite dramatic details about the arrests
0:23:10 > 0:23:12of supporters of Grace Mugabe on the night of
0:23:12 > 0:23:15the 14th of November.
0:23:15 > 0:23:18Events, really, that became the starting gun for the coup that
0:23:18 > 0:23:26overthrew Robert Mugabe.
0:23:26 > 0:23:29As night fell, the cameras assembled to catch a glimpse of one
0:23:29 > 0:23:34of Zimbabwe's most powerful men, humbled and shackled.
0:23:34 > 0:23:41Herded into a prison van along with common criminals.
0:23:41 > 0:23:43As this country embarks upon a new era, some habits,
0:23:43 > 0:23:49it seems, die hard.
0:23:49 > 0:23:53They bombed the gate to his house and entered
0:23:53 > 0:23:55through the roof, some of them.
0:23:55 > 0:23:59Others, they broke the doors, broke every door in the house
0:23:59 > 0:24:02until they finally came to where he was with his wife.
0:24:02 > 0:24:06They were all asked to lie down.
0:24:06 > 0:24:10They were then blindfolded and he was taken out of the house.
0:24:10 > 0:24:13Taken to a place where he could not tell what place
0:24:13 > 0:24:17it was and at the end of the day, he was there for more
0:24:17 > 0:24:19than seven days.
0:24:19 > 0:24:24Blindfolded throughout the entire period of his incarceration.
0:24:37 > 0:24:42Fr Fidelis Mukonori is sometimes called Mugabe's Confessor.
0:24:42 > 0:24:45The events went very fast.
0:24:45 > 0:24:49I was phoned by the Permanent Secretary
0:24:49 > 0:24:54in the Ministry of Information.
0:24:54 > 0:24:56He said, Father, you know, something's happened in the early
0:24:56 > 0:25:00hours of this morning.
0:25:00 > 0:25:03A Jesuit priest and close personal friend of many years,
0:25:03 > 0:25:09when the generals made their move, they asked Fr Fidelis to mediate.
0:25:09 > 0:25:14The tanks were in the street, the boys were on the street.
0:25:14 > 0:25:21And his generals were sombre, sombre as anything.
0:25:21 > 0:25:27There was no sign of jitteriness or overexcitement or anger.
0:25:27 > 0:25:28No.
0:25:28 > 0:25:32Did it strike you as well planned?
0:25:32 > 0:25:36Yes, well planned.
0:25:36 > 0:25:39The generals had drawn up a list of demands which centred around
0:25:39 > 0:25:45the reinstatement of the exiled Vice President, Emmerson Mnangagwa.
0:25:45 > 0:25:51The main one was, we will not accept the legacy of Zimbabwe,
0:25:51 > 0:25:55the legacy of Robert Mugabe, to be drained out or to be fizzled
0:25:55 > 0:26:00out by opportunists.
0:26:00 > 0:26:04After finishing the meeting with the commanders, I drove
0:26:04 > 0:26:06to President Mugabe's residence.
0:26:06 > 0:26:09The blue roof.
0:26:09 > 0:26:12And we read the points, one by one.
0:26:12 > 0:26:15What was his reaction?
0:26:15 > 0:26:22Robert Mugabe is a guerilla, a fighter and a leader.
0:26:22 > 0:26:32He never loses his calmness.
0:26:34 > 0:26:36Not everyone who was at that first meeting remembers things going
0:26:36 > 0:26:37quite that smoothly.
0:26:37 > 0:26:40Two people with knowledge of the conversation that day told us
0:26:40 > 0:26:43that Robert Mugabe said to the generals, "You can go to hell
0:26:43 > 0:26:45- you can kill me if you want to".
0:26:45 > 0:26:47And perhaps, after 37 years in power, that's
0:26:47 > 0:26:50a more plausible reaction.
0:26:50 > 0:26:54But Robert Mugabe is the embodiment of power in Zimbabwe.
0:26:54 > 0:26:58And the aim is to control that legacy, not to kill it.
0:26:58 > 0:27:02It's a delicate operation and it's not over yet.
0:27:06 > 0:27:08The removal of Mugabe from the Presidency brought euphoria
0:27:08 > 0:27:11onto the streets of Harare.
0:27:11 > 0:27:13How do you feel right now?
0:27:13 > 0:27:15Fantastic.
0:27:15 > 0:27:18This is a new Zimbabwe.
0:27:18 > 0:27:20The inauguration of the new President last Friday seemed
0:27:20 > 0:27:22like a moment of great promise.
0:27:22 > 0:27:26And yet, the figure of Robert Mugabe retains some respect for his role
0:27:26 > 0:27:28in the liberation struggle.
0:27:28 > 0:27:31Despite a record of political violence, endemic
0:27:31 > 0:27:37corruption and unemployment.
0:27:37 > 0:27:39The people, they are desperate.
0:27:39 > 0:27:41That is why most of us have supported Emmerson
0:27:41 > 0:27:42Mnangagwa, because of jobs.
0:27:42 > 0:27:45We are jobless.
0:27:45 > 0:27:49Most of these people, they actually hold degrees, Masters, PhD's.
0:27:49 > 0:27:52But we're sitting at home with nothing to do.
0:27:52 > 0:27:55Can I ask you, how do you all feel about President Mugabe?
0:27:55 > 0:27:58Do you still like him or do you not like him?
0:27:58 > 0:28:04THEY CHANT "NO".
0:28:04 > 0:28:08Since long, we didn't like him but we were afraid
0:28:08 > 0:28:11because if you were saying something negative about him,
0:28:11 > 0:28:15you would be butchered.
0:28:15 > 0:28:17But this was no revolution.
0:28:17 > 0:28:19The soldiers on the streets heralded an internal
0:28:19 > 0:28:25battle within Zanu-PF, the ruling party.
0:28:25 > 0:28:28Mnangagwa and the military had gained the upper hand.
0:28:28 > 0:28:34Grace Mugabe and her supporters were losing their grip.
0:28:34 > 0:28:37Walter Mzembi is among the latter group.
0:28:37 > 0:28:41He was appointed Foreign Minister just before the coup and was a close
0:28:41 > 0:28:43confidant of the Mugabes.
0:28:43 > 0:28:45When the tanks appeared on the street, his first thought
0:28:45 > 0:28:46was for his own safety.
0:28:46 > 0:28:49Nice place you have here.
0:28:49 > 0:28:51Modest!
0:28:51 > 0:28:54I was in my bedroom, upstairs.
0:28:54 > 0:28:56I heard gunshots.
0:28:56 > 0:29:01Of course, I said, this can't be right, whatever it is.
0:29:01 > 0:29:05You don't wait for yourself to be captured, I suspect
0:29:05 > 0:29:07that is what it is.
0:29:07 > 0:29:10You don't wait for it to happen.
0:29:10 > 0:29:11I obviously sought sanctuary.
0:29:11 > 0:29:13Where did you go?
0:29:13 > 0:29:16I just went into a hotel.
0:29:16 > 0:29:18Looking back, Mr Mzembi says he should have known
0:29:18 > 0:29:20that trouble was coming.
0:29:20 > 0:29:23Sometimes, the military were giving us a warning.
0:29:23 > 0:29:25What kind of warning?
0:29:25 > 0:29:29That if we insisted and continued to act the way we are doing
0:29:29 > 0:29:32in the party, that would be the end of him.
0:29:32 > 0:29:34They gave you warnings?
0:29:34 > 0:29:37In hindsight...
0:29:37 > 0:29:38You realise they were warnings.
0:29:38 > 0:29:40They were warning us.
0:29:40 > 0:29:45We never took them seriously!
0:29:45 > 0:29:47That was a mistake.
0:29:47 > 0:29:51Grace Mugabe had made many enemies using her power as First Lady
0:29:51 > 0:29:53to publicly chastise party stalwarts and veterans of the
0:29:53 > 0:29:58liberation struggle.
0:29:58 > 0:30:03Well, she would correct even some of us in public.
0:30:03 > 0:30:06And there was absolutely nothing that I was felt was wrong...
0:30:06 > 0:30:09In our culture, if you are corrected by a mother.
0:30:09 > 0:30:12Except when it tends to border on abuse.
0:30:12 > 0:30:13But as she corrected me...
0:30:13 > 0:30:15Is that what happened?
0:30:15 > 0:30:18I think she behaved like a of mother would punish children
0:30:18 > 0:30:22in public, I think.
0:30:22 > 0:30:31That is what incensed others, yes.
0:30:31 > 0:30:33Now the tables had turned.
0:30:33 > 0:30:34From exile in South Africa, Emmerson Mnangagwa sent
0:30:34 > 0:30:36a message to Fr Fidelis.
0:30:36 > 0:30:40He wanted to speak to Mugabe.
0:30:40 > 0:30:43So, I called him on my phone and I said, I'm sitting
0:30:43 > 0:30:48next to the President.
0:30:48 > 0:30:50He also wants to speak to you.
0:30:50 > 0:30:56So the two spoke for exactly ten minutes.
0:30:56 > 0:30:58Mnangagwa had accused Grace of trying to poison him.
0:30:58 > 0:31:01Now he told his former boss...
0:31:01 > 0:31:09He said I had to leave the country for fear of my life.
0:31:09 > 0:31:13And that's why I left the country.
0:31:13 > 0:31:14You want me to come?
0:31:14 > 0:31:17I love Zimbabwe.
0:31:17 > 0:31:18Would you like to deal with the issue?
0:31:18 > 0:31:20Indeed, I will come.
0:31:20 > 0:31:22So the President said, please, please, come,
0:31:22 > 0:31:27come, come right away.
0:31:27 > 0:31:32And that was the last words.
0:31:32 > 0:31:33That was on the Friday.
0:31:33 > 0:31:36By the weekend, people were coming out onto the streets, calling openly
0:31:36 > 0:31:38from Robert Mugabe to go.
0:31:38 > 0:31:42These were scenes unthinkable just a few days earlier.
0:31:42 > 0:31:45On Sunday, Mugabe addressed the nation.
0:31:45 > 0:31:50Everyone expected him to resign, but still he clung on.
0:31:50 > 0:31:53Some people close to Robert Mugabe said that by this time,
0:31:53 > 0:31:56he had already accepted that Emmerson Mnangagwa would be his
0:31:56 > 0:31:59successor, but he wanted to hand over to him personally,
0:31:59 > 0:32:02at the party congress in December.
0:32:02 > 0:32:04Others, though, say that he was still haggling over
0:32:04 > 0:32:06the terms and conditions of his retirement.
0:32:06 > 0:32:10Immunity from prosecution, the security of his and his wife's
0:32:10 > 0:32:12businesses and properties.
0:32:12 > 0:32:15Even a lump sum in cash.
0:32:15 > 0:32:18Whatever the truth, by the following Tuesday, the 21st,
0:32:18 > 0:32:23Parliament had begun impeachment proceedings and the game was up.
0:32:23 > 0:32:27I pretty much was taken by surprise when I heard that he had capitulated
0:32:27 > 0:32:30and tendered his resignation.
0:32:30 > 0:32:34But I thought that happened under a break of pressure that was coming
0:32:34 > 0:32:38from the impeachment process in Parliament.
0:32:38 > 0:32:40What do you think it was that finally made him capitulate?
0:32:40 > 0:32:43He was betrayed by his colleagues.
0:32:43 > 0:32:45By their last-minute switch.
0:32:45 > 0:32:48But that is politics!
0:32:48 > 0:32:51Mr Mzembi himself backed Mugabe to the last.
0:32:51 > 0:32:53Now he supports the new President - his loyalty, he says,
0:32:53 > 0:33:02is to the office.
0:33:02 > 0:33:04A short drive out of Harare, through countryside of rolling
0:33:04 > 0:33:09hills and gold mines, brings you to Mazowe.
0:33:09 > 0:33:11It was where Grace Mugabe built her base, centred
0:33:11 > 0:33:15around a sprawling mansion behind stone pillars.
0:33:15 > 0:33:19This is known as Graceland.
0:33:19 > 0:33:21Many local people were pushed off their farms
0:33:21 > 0:33:23by the former First Lady.
0:33:23 > 0:33:26Those who remain are still uneasy.
0:33:26 > 0:33:30How has it been to be the neighbour of Grace Mugabe?
0:33:30 > 0:33:36Mmmmm?
0:33:37 > 0:33:42A few people are still scared to talk.
0:33:42 > 0:33:44For the past three-and-a-half decades, this country has been
0:33:44 > 0:33:46held together by fear.
0:33:46 > 0:33:51Few expect that to change quickly.
0:33:51 > 0:33:54People said to me, a week ago, I couldn't have come out
0:33:54 > 0:33:57on the street and said what I am saying now.
0:33:57 > 0:34:01One person said to me, I would have been...
0:34:01 > 0:34:04I mean, that gives you some indication of the kind of regime
0:34:04 > 0:34:08that people have been living under, that you were also part of?
0:34:08 > 0:34:11Well, I didn't get the sense that there was an infringement
0:34:11 > 0:34:14of civil liberties in this country.
0:34:14 > 0:34:19You don't think Robert Mugabe ran a repressive regime?
0:34:19 > 0:34:29To demonstrate without a police order, I'm not sure it attracted
0:34:29 > 0:34:31the attention of the police at the time.
0:34:31 > 0:34:33And I don't think even this successor administration
0:34:33 > 0:34:35would authorise expression of freedom that led
0:34:35 > 0:34:39to unauthorised demonstrations.
0:34:39 > 0:34:41Do you think there will be a change?
0:34:41 > 0:34:45They may have a false sense of freedom if they think
0:34:45 > 0:34:48that they can be out on the streets to demonstrate without
0:34:48 > 0:34:53police sanction.
0:34:53 > 0:34:56For decades, Robert Mugabe outsmarted his enemies,
0:34:56 > 0:34:58foreign and domestic.
0:34:58 > 0:35:01Now, the combination of political acumen and intimidation that
0:35:01 > 0:35:05kept him in power for so long finally failed him.
0:35:05 > 0:35:07Fr Fidelis was there when he was presented
0:35:07 > 0:35:10with his resignation papers.
0:35:10 > 0:35:14He read them and he took his pen and signed.
0:35:14 > 0:35:19And when he finished his signing, his face just...
0:35:19 > 0:35:21Calmed.
0:35:21 > 0:35:23It just glowed.
0:35:23 > 0:35:33As if to say, wow, it's over.
0:35:34 > 0:35:37So, what happens now?
0:35:37 > 0:35:39The soldiers have largely returned to their barracks.
0:35:39 > 0:35:42Life has almost returned to normal.
0:35:42 > 0:35:46After 37 years of rule dominated by one man and one party,
0:35:46 > 0:35:48the overwhelming imperative for the new regime is
0:35:48 > 0:36:01continuity, not change.
0:36:01 > 0:36:03Gabriel Gatehouse reporting.
0:36:03 > 0:36:07The murders of Lin and Megan Russell in Chillenden in Kent back in 1996
0:36:07 > 0:36:08shook the nation at the time.
0:36:08 > 0:36:10The mother and daughter were bludgeoned to death
0:36:10 > 0:36:11while walking their dog.
0:36:11 > 0:36:14Megan's sister was left for dead, but amazingly survived the attack.
0:36:14 > 0:36:17A year later, Kent Police thought they'd found the killer,
0:36:17 > 0:36:27a man called Michael Stone.
0:36:28 > 0:36:30A drug user and criminal, he was convicted for the murders
0:36:30 > 0:36:32in 1998, on the basis not of forensic evidence,
0:36:32 > 0:36:34but alleged confessions he had made to other prisoners.
0:36:34 > 0:36:37He always denied the killings but even in a retrial,
0:36:37 > 0:36:38his conviction upheld.
0:36:38 > 0:36:40However, Mr Stone's legal team claim to have new evidence
0:36:40 > 0:36:43that suggests it was, in fact, the known murderer
0:36:43 > 0:36:45Levi Bellfield who actually killed the Russells.
0:36:45 > 0:36:48They have presented their evidence to the Criminal Case Review
0:36:48 > 0:36:52Commission and now hope that Michael Stone will soon be free.
0:36:52 > 0:36:58They describe it as potentially the largest miscarriage of justice
0:36:58 > 0:36:59since the Birmingham Six case.
0:36:59 > 0:37:02I'm joined by Barbara Stone - Michael's sister who has always
0:37:02 > 0:37:03asserted his innocence.
0:37:03 > 0:37:07And Mark McDonald is Michael Stone's barrister.
0:37:07 > 0:37:15Good evening to you. Barbara, why have you always felt so sure that he
0:37:15 > 0:37:19was not the murderer?Because I have never seen any evidence or anything
0:37:19 > 0:37:23that would suggest that he was. I think the only reason that people
0:37:23 > 0:37:28think he was the murderer is because the police said that he did it. But
0:37:28 > 0:37:33there is no evidence and I have never seen anything.He had
0:37:33 > 0:37:38committed other crimes that they were not like this?He did, but they
0:37:38 > 0:37:42were a different kind. I always say he did the crime and he did the
0:37:42 > 0:37:55time. I would not approve of all his lifestyle choices but this is very
0:37:55 > 0:37:57different to this, the murder of women and children. That is not
0:37:57 > 0:38:00something any of us would tribute to him. Also around that time, there
0:38:00 > 0:38:02were no behaviours that would indicate that he had done that.
0:38:02 > 0:38:06Mark, you have cited three pieces of evidence which would point
0:38:06 > 0:38:11potentially to Levi Bellfield. A witness, some forensics evidence and
0:38:11 > 0:38:17some prison confessions on his part. The amazing thing is, for at least
0:38:17 > 0:38:20two of those, that so long after the murders, the evidence comes out now
0:38:20 > 0:38:27and people would find that perplexing?First of all, with Levi
0:38:27 > 0:38:31Bellfield, the trigger was a documentary that ran in May of this
0:38:31 > 0:38:36year, and that was a trigger for discussion that took place because
0:38:36 > 0:38:40Bellfield was worried that the documentary may say something
0:38:40 > 0:38:47prejudicial about him. That started a conversation happening thereafter,
0:38:47 > 0:38:52a series of conversations which were part of the confession.And as I
0:38:52 > 0:39:00understand it, his confession, his alleged confession had elements in
0:39:00 > 0:39:06it that he would not have known by reading newspaper accounts of the
0:39:06 > 0:39:10original murderer?And that is important. When you look at the
0:39:10 > 0:39:15confession or the alleged confession that convicted Michael Stone,
0:39:15 > 0:39:19nothing in that confession, there was nothing, everything was in the
0:39:19 > 0:39:28public domain. But it comes to... From what you are citing?From Levi
0:39:28 > 0:39:32Bellfield, there are a number of aspects and only the person who
0:39:32 > 0:39:39committed the crime would know.Just briefly, is prison cell evidence, is
0:39:39 > 0:39:42that good evidence? It is ironic because Michael Stone was convicted
0:39:42 > 0:39:48that and now you're citing some of that in relation?Cell confession
0:39:48 > 0:39:51evidence is a problem and in particular cell confession evidence
0:39:51 > 0:39:56from somebody who is on remand which is what convicted Michael Stone in
0:39:56 > 0:40:03the first place, has huge problems attached to it. What is important is
0:40:03 > 0:40:05to look at the other evidence, the corroborative evidence to go with
0:40:05 > 0:40:10that. So, for example, with Damien Daley, the witness who convicted
0:40:10 > 0:40:16Michael Stone in the first trial, it was clear that everything was in the
0:40:16 > 0:40:21public domain, nothing new was in that, whereas with Levi Bellfield,
0:40:21 > 0:40:30there was a lot.Barbara, how is Michael Stone now? It must be a
0:40:30 > 0:40:33roller-coaster of emotional turmoil hearing that the evidence has come
0:40:33 > 0:40:38out and then suddenly finding out you do not know if it will have any
0:40:38 > 0:40:46hope or not. How is he?Mick is very confident. I speak to him almost
0:40:46 > 0:40:53daily. He is very confident about the potential evidence. He is
0:40:53 > 0:40:56convinced Bellfield is the guilty party. We would not go that far at
0:40:56 > 0:41:01the moment but my brother is convinced that he did it. That is
0:41:01 > 0:41:05because Mick would know that he didn't. In order to get out of
0:41:05 > 0:41:11prison, he is happy about that.Kent Police are not particularly keen on
0:41:11 > 0:41:15reopening this case and we have a long statement. It is unfair on the
0:41:15 > 0:41:22victims to reopen the investigation. It is important though, you want a
0:41:22 > 0:41:26different police force to come in and examine this?We do. That have
0:41:26 > 0:41:29been problems over the years with the Kent Police force, actually
0:41:29 > 0:41:33going right back to the first trial, the way that they obtained evidence,
0:41:33 > 0:41:39and thereafter that have been a number of issues, including missing
0:41:39 > 0:41:44on losing an important exhibit. So, yes we do. Their statement today is
0:41:44 > 0:41:51quite bizarre. So we do have concerns. It goes back many years.
0:41:51 > 0:41:56Where we are now, this is with the criminal cases review commission.
0:41:56 > 0:42:00The criminal cases review commission need to look at this. I know they
0:42:00 > 0:42:02are investigating it, but it is clear that the evidence is quite
0:42:02 > 0:42:07compelling and it needs to be referred back to the Court of Appeal
0:42:07 > 0:42:13soon enough.Thank you both for coming in.
0:42:13 > 0:42:17That is all we have time for. Tomorrow, Kamal Ahmed will be here.
0:42:17 > 0:42:20Good night.