0:00:03 > 0:00:08Tonight, the net tightens around Trump.
0:00:08 > 0:00:11Michael Flynn, his former National Security Advisor pleads
0:00:11 > 0:00:14guilty to lying to the FBI.
0:00:14 > 0:00:18Was he ordered to do so by the President's son-in-law?
0:00:18 > 0:00:22And where does this take the Mueller investigation now?
0:00:22 > 0:00:26We're live in Washington with those who can explain.
0:00:26 > 0:00:29Also tonight, ten years ago, police raided Damian Green's office
0:00:29 > 0:00:32and stumbled across porn on a computer.
0:00:32 > 0:00:41Is it in the public interest that they tell us?
0:00:41 > 0:00:45Many Conservative MPs want to know what another police are playing at.
0:00:45 > 0:00:49Any information they found was obtained using police powers. They
0:00:49 > 0:00:54found nothing illegal and yet evidence is now being put in the
0:00:54 > 0:00:59public domain.What were those former police officers doing?
0:00:59 > 0:01:00We'll ask this former Chief Constable,
0:01:00 > 0:01:02and a senior Tory MP.
0:01:02 > 0:01:04And, we have new pictures from besieged Eastern Ghouta -
0:01:04 > 0:01:06just outside the Syrian capital, Damascus, where we find shocking
0:01:06 > 0:01:08evidence of widespread starvation - including children.
0:01:08 > 0:01:10Is this the worst humanitarian catastrophe in what has proved
0:01:10 > 0:01:15a vicious civil war?
0:01:21 > 0:01:23Good evening.
0:01:23 > 0:01:26He lied, and he lied, and he lied, and tonight he pleaded guilty
0:01:26 > 0:01:29to those lies, appearing before the court in Washington.
0:01:29 > 0:01:32Michael Flynn was President Trump's National Security Advisor who spent
0:01:32 > 0:01:36weeks protesting his innocence in dealings with Russia.
0:01:36 > 0:01:40Today, he appears to have agreed to a deal with federal prosecutors -
0:01:40 > 0:01:43which may yet lead them to the President's door.
0:01:43 > 0:01:45This evening, US networks are reporting that Flynn is prepared
0:01:45 > 0:01:49to testify that Donald Trump's son-in-law directed him
0:01:49 > 0:01:52to make contact with the Russians before he took office.
0:01:52 > 0:02:00Flynn's decision to cooperate with the investigation led
0:02:00 > 0:02:02marks a major escalation
0:02:02 > 0:02:04in the scandal that has dogged Trump's presidency since he took
0:02:04 > 0:02:06office - although the President's lawyer insists it implicates
0:02:06 > 0:02:08no one but Flynn himself.
0:02:08 > 0:02:09Where will it lead?
0:02:09 > 0:02:12We head to Washington in a moment, first, a look at the day's events.
0:02:12 > 0:02:14This was the moment many had been waiting for.
0:02:14 > 0:02:17A guilty plea by one at the top officials in the original
0:02:17 > 0:02:20Trump administration.
0:02:20 > 0:02:23Michael Flynn accepted he had lied to the FBI
0:02:23 > 0:02:26about his communications with Russia.
0:02:26 > 0:02:31He is no stranger to controversy.
0:02:31 > 0:02:34If I, a guy who knows this business, if I did a tenth of
0:02:34 > 0:02:42what she did, I would be in jail today.
0:02:42 > 0:02:44It was in the 2016 presidential campaign that Michael Flynn
0:02:44 > 0:02:51and Donald Trump became close.
0:02:51 > 0:02:54Lock her up, that's right.
0:02:54 > 0:02:56The Lieutenant General was a passionate supporter
0:02:56 > 0:02:59of Trump and his controversial policies.
0:02:59 > 0:03:03Defending the Mexican Wall to me, when I caught up with him at the
0:03:03 > 0:03:05Republican Convention.
0:03:05 > 0:03:08As a military man, when he is talking about building a wall.
0:03:08 > 0:03:10When he is talking about a ban...
0:03:10 > 0:03:11Yeah, we're going to build a wall.
0:03:11 > 0:03:13What's the matter with building a wall?
0:03:13 > 0:03:14I just visited the Vatican.
0:03:14 > 0:03:16The Vatican has one of the highest walls around it.
0:03:16 > 0:03:17Why?
0:03:17 > 0:03:20Why does the Vatican have a wall around it?
0:03:20 > 0:03:21His loyalty was repaid.
0:03:21 > 0:03:24He was on the short list as Trump's vice presidential pick, eventually
0:03:24 > 0:03:25becoming national-security adviser.
0:03:25 > 0:03:27It was an appointment that President Obama himself
0:03:27 > 0:03:29had warned against, telling Trump the day after the election
0:03:29 > 0:03:31not to bring Flynn into the White House.
0:03:31 > 0:03:34The beginning of his downfall came even before he was in the job.
0:03:34 > 0:03:37Allegations surfaced of a meeting he held with the Russian ambassador
0:03:37 > 0:03:39about sanctions.
0:03:39 > 0:03:44Conversations Flynn first denied having, then remembering.
0:03:44 > 0:03:54He hung on for the best part of a month, was fired just 24
0:03:54 > 0:03:56days into the job, when it became clear he'd misled
0:03:56 > 0:03:58the vice president, Mike Pence, with his lies.
0:03:58 > 0:03:59The president was very concerned that
0:03:59 > 0:04:01General Flynn had misled the vice president and others.
0:04:01 > 0:04:05The evolving and eroding level of trust as a result of the situation
0:04:05 > 0:04:06and a series of other questionable instances is
0:04:06 > 0:04:11what led the president to ask for General Flynn's resignation.
0:04:11 > 0:04:14Trump also then asked the FBI director James Comey
0:04:14 > 0:04:17to end his investigation into ties between Flynn and Russia,
0:04:17 > 0:04:20that was according to news reports at the time.
0:04:20 > 0:04:23Trump denied making such a request but he fired Comey
0:04:23 > 0:04:25some months later.
0:04:25 > 0:04:30Comey was quick to set straight his side of the story.
0:04:30 > 0:04:33The administration then chose to defame me,
0:04:33 > 0:04:35and more importantly, the FBI, by saying that the
0:04:35 > 0:04:38organisation was in disarray.
0:04:38 > 0:04:40That it was poorly led.
0:04:40 > 0:04:44That the workforce had lost confidence in its leader.
0:04:44 > 0:04:50Those were lies, plain and simple.
0:04:50 > 0:04:54Today's guilty plea accompanies Flynn's promise to
0:04:54 > 0:04:59cooperate in the probe but the real question in all this is what
0:04:59 > 0:05:01chief prosecutor Robert Mueller really wants.
0:05:01 > 0:05:04Flynn appears to have already cut a deal to shorten a possible
0:05:04 > 0:05:05five-year prison sentence.
0:05:05 > 0:05:09Muller will want something big in return.
0:05:09 > 0:05:11The prize many think he has his eyes on?
0:05:11 > 0:05:14Trump himself.
0:05:14 > 0:05:16Seth Abramson is an attorney and writer who repeatedly accused
0:05:16 > 0:05:19the Trump campaign of collusion with the Russian Government.
0:05:19 > 0:05:20He is in New Hampshire.
0:05:20 > 0:05:23And Ron Christie is a Republican Strategist.
0:05:23 > 0:05:29He's in our Washington Bureau.
0:05:29 > 0:05:34Gentlemen, great to have you both. Thank you. Seth, tell us how big you
0:05:34 > 0:05:39think this is. For our audience, what is the most serious charge now?
0:05:39 > 0:05:43This is the biggest news in the Russia process far by a fairly good
0:05:43 > 0:05:46distance. It means a prosecutor doesn't offer this order plea
0:05:46 > 0:05:54agreement to the defendant, unless a defendant can offer incriminating
0:05:54 > 0:05:57evidence to someone who is above them on the chain of command. And
0:05:57 > 0:05:59someone who is above the national security adviser would be the
0:05:59 > 0:06:02president and vice president of the United States.You don't think this
0:06:02 > 0:06:06is about wheeling in Jared Kushner, the President's son-in-law, you
0:06:06 > 0:06:12think this goes to trump's doorstep? There are a number of people in the
0:06:12 > 0:06:18hierarchy which includes Donald Trump junior and Jared Kushner who
0:06:18 > 0:06:22may be looked at that you would not offer this sort of deal which was a
0:06:22 > 0:06:26sweetheart deal for Mike Flynn, unless you are going up the chain of
0:06:26 > 0:06:30command rather than laterally.You are not seriously suggesting this
0:06:30 > 0:06:36could indicate both the president and vice president? Where would that
0:06:36 > 0:06:44leave the administration?All of the allegations right now against Mr
0:06:44 > 0:06:48Quint involve his behaviour and negotiations over sanctions while he
0:06:48 > 0:06:52was on the transition team. A statement says Mike Flynn spoke to
0:06:52 > 0:06:55very senior officials on the transition team while he was engaged
0:06:55 > 0:06:59in these negotiations. Jared Kushner has already been identified as one
0:06:59 > 0:07:02of those officials, but people suspect Mike Pence could be one of
0:07:02 > 0:07:07the others as he was running the transition team.Ron, I will bring
0:07:07 > 0:07:12you in and is a brave Republican to try and defend this tonight. What do
0:07:12 > 0:07:17you make of what you are hearing? Good evening, Emily. I am not as
0:07:17 > 0:07:22troubled by Seth is as what unfolded here today. Let me explain this. As
0:07:22 > 0:07:27someone who worked for a presidential transition back in 2004
0:07:27 > 0:07:32the Bush administration, you are working in a government building,
0:07:32 > 0:07:35write but find us here in Washington, DC. You are doing
0:07:35 > 0:07:39everything you can to transition so when the president of the United
0:07:39 > 0:07:41States leads the parade route and walks into the White House, the
0:07:41 > 0:07:46staff are up and fully running. On a daily basis, as a domestic policy
0:07:46 > 0:07:49adviser, it would be your job to speak to other officials in the
0:07:49 > 0:07:53government. I would surmise that is a national security adviser, coming
0:07:53 > 0:07:58into the administration, it would be your job to establish relations with
0:07:58 > 0:08:07foreign ambassadors in the United States, who are serving their
0:08:07 > 0:08:09nations. So the notion that Mr Flynn lied, that is his responsibility,
0:08:09 > 0:08:12and that is why he was fired 25 days into the trump administration by the
0:08:12 > 0:08:16president himself, for those lies, for which he was implicated and
0:08:16 > 0:08:20indicted today. To suggest this goes to be president or the vice
0:08:20 > 0:08:23president themselves, I think that is way to spec litter that this
0:08:23 > 0:08:32point and there is no evidence in fact to prove that allegation. --
0:08:32 > 0:08:33point and there is no evidence in fact to prove that allegation. --.
0:08:33 > 0:08:38Is there anything wrong with what Flynn is now accused of doing?Let's
0:08:38 > 0:08:41be clear the allegations right now are not that Mr Flynn was trying to
0:08:41 > 0:08:46establish a range of ship with the Russians in December 2016, it is
0:08:46 > 0:08:50that he was negotiating US policy on sanctions and Israel, before he and
0:08:50 > 0:08:53Mr Trump were actually the legal government of the United States, and
0:08:53 > 0:08:56that is a violation under the Logan act which is very rarely enforced,
0:08:56 > 0:09:11but it has to do with citizens illegally negotiating with foreign
0:09:18 > 0:09:20governments, having no colour authority to do so. Having said
0:09:20 > 0:09:22that, let's understand the allegations which came out today and
0:09:22 > 0:09:25what Mr Flynn pledged to is only the smallest point of what he told Mr
0:09:25 > 0:09:28Muller and he was careful to shield what he knew about Mr Flynn's
0:09:28 > 0:09:30conversations in his charging documents.Ron, I'm trying to work
0:09:30 > 0:09:32out if you are representative of other Republicans or is there a
0:09:32 > 0:09:35growing voice which says this is becoming too big to ignore?Emily, I
0:09:35 > 0:09:39come at this from the perspective of being a lawyer and having served in
0:09:39 > 0:09:43the White House and four years, and knowing what it is like to bring the
0:09:43 > 0:09:47government up to speed so the president and vice presidents can
0:09:47 > 0:09:51assume office.But you would never have done these things. You would
0:09:51 > 0:10:03never have set up meetings with Russian
0:10:26 > 0:10:28ambassadors period, would you?I would not have, absolutely not. But
0:10:28 > 0:10:31the Logan act which was passed in 1799 says it is illegal for private
0:10:31 > 0:10:33citizens to interfere with official government business. I was content
0:10:33 > 0:10:36to you as a lawyer, if you're working in a federal office building
0:10:36 > 0:10:38in the United States, and you're bringing the president and vice
0:10:38 > 0:10:41president into office, it is not Ed Ling as a private citizen of any
0:10:41 > 0:10:43conversations he might have. Presumably, just back to you, Seth,
0:10:43 > 0:10:46if he has pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI and he has cut some sort of
0:10:46 > 0:10:49deal, what would that look like? We are not used to plea bargaining
0:10:49 > 0:10:53here, talk us through it.Mr Flynn pleaded guilty to a one to five year
0:10:53 > 0:10:57sentence in prison, but he could see no time in federal prison
0:10:57 > 0:11:02whatsoever. Mr Christie keeps referring to federal buildings being
0:11:02 > 0:11:05used for the transition, it should be clear from the statement of the
0:11:05 > 0:11:09offence that Mr Flynn was having contact with quote very senior
0:11:09 > 0:11:14officials in the transition who were in Florida, not in a federal
0:11:14 > 0:11:18building, and at the time is the Flynn was having those buildings, Mr
0:11:18 > 0:11:25Trump was in Florida.I'm not a defender of Mr Trump or Mr p. I
0:11:25 > 0:11:31speak from experience which suggests that where the president elect or
0:11:31 > 0:11:34the vice president elect might be. Just because they are not physically
0:11:34 > 0:11:39in the office building I am making reference to does not mean it is
0:11:39 > 0:11:45nefarious, that he was at Mara Lago. I will agree with you on this.
0:11:45 > 0:11:53Seth's comments, as a lawyer I look at this and say the special counsel
0:11:53 > 0:11:56is clearly going higher, because the crimes he was alleged to have
0:11:56 > 0:12:01committed would have put him in jail for 20 plus years. There is clearly
0:12:01 > 0:12:06someone else that General Flynn will be co-operating with with the
0:12:06 > 0:12:09special counsel, that could take us even further inside the gates of the
0:12:09 > 0:12:13White House. And as to who that person is or who the persons might
0:12:13 > 0:12:18be, I think that is what the next parlour game here in Washington is,
0:12:18 > 0:12:23who is next?We have run out of time but thank you for joining us.
0:12:23 > 0:12:31The case of pornography found on a minister's office computer
0:12:31 > 0:12:37is one of two things: the story of a Deputy PM who's
0:12:37 > 0:12:38lying.
0:12:38 > 0:12:40Or the story of a police officer who's overreached his powers.
0:12:40 > 0:12:42Today, Theresa May's deputy, Damian Green, strongly denied once
0:12:42 > 0:12:44again that he had downloaded or viewed pornography
0:12:44 > 0:12:45on his office computer.
0:12:45 > 0:12:49It came as a response to the claims of a retired police detective,
0:12:49 > 0:12:50Neil Lewis, who said thousands of legal images
0:12:50 > 0:12:53were found on it nine years ago, and that the investigation
0:12:53 > 0:12:55at the time should never have been closed.
0:12:55 > 0:12:58He believes it was in the public interest to reveal this now.
0:12:58 > 0:13:00Scotland Yard is investigating him for allegedly
0:13:00 > 0:13:01leaking the confidential material.
0:13:01 > 0:13:02So, who do you trust?
0:13:02 > 0:13:05And how comfortable are we with the way this has emerged?
0:13:05 > 0:13:07We'll speak to a former police officer and to Green's colleague
0:13:07 > 0:13:08Dominic Grieve.
0:13:08 > 0:13:18First, here's David Grossman.
0:13:22 > 0:13:28It is worth reminding ourselves why police came to search computers in
0:13:28 > 0:13:31Damian Green's office. The Home Office claimed a threat to national
0:13:31 > 0:13:38security. The Cabinet Office asked the net to find the mole. Without a
0:13:38 > 0:13:40warrant they persuaded the Commons authorities to let them search
0:13:40 > 0:13:43Damian Green's Parliamentary office. There was outrage among MPs,
0:13:43 > 0:13:47especially as police concluded he had not committed a public offence.
0:13:47 > 0:13:51The then Director of Public Prosecutions who throughout the case
0:13:51 > 0:13:56is now a Labour Shadow minister.I have concluded the information leak
0:13:56 > 0:13:59was not secret information or information affecting national
0:13:59 > 0:14:03security.Skip forward nine years and retired police officers are now
0:14:03 > 0:14:08alleging that Mr Green's computer had pornography on it, although
0:14:08 > 0:14:21nothing illegal. Former PC Neil Lewis examined one of the
0:14:22 > 0:14:25computers in 2008, and has spoken exclusively to BBC News.The
0:14:25 > 0:14:28shocking thing was as I was feeling it, I noticed a lot of pornography
0:14:28 > 0:14:35thumbnails, which indicated web browsing. But a lot, a lot of them.
0:14:35 > 0:14:40Mr Green, however, denies having done anything wrong.I have said I
0:14:40 > 0:14:43am not commenting any further while the investigation is going on. I
0:14:43 > 0:14:48have maintained all along, I still maintain it is the truth that I did
0:14:48 > 0:14:51not download or look at pornography on my computer. But obviously, while
0:14:51 > 0:14:58the investigation is going on, I can't say any more.
0:14:58 > 0:15:03The raid on Mr Green's Parliamentary office was controversial at the time
0:15:03 > 0:15:08and it is controversial again. Many MPs want to know what the police are
0:15:08 > 0:15:13playing at. Any information they found was found using police powers.
0:15:13 > 0:15:17There was nothing illegal but evidence is now being put into the
0:15:17 > 0:15:20public domain for that there is anger that former Constable Lewis
0:15:20 > 0:15:24has kept his notebook of the investigation after retirement and
0:15:24 > 0:15:32is showing it to reporters.Nearly a decade later, based on one surviving
0:15:32 > 0:15:37evidential source, a notebook which Constable Lewis has kept in his
0:15:37 > 0:15:42possession after retirement. It seems more than a little odd.The
0:15:42 > 0:15:47allegation against Mr Green has come not only from former Constable Lewis
0:15:47 > 0:15:52but from the more senior Assistant Commissioner, Bob quick. Is this the
0:15:52 > 0:15:57police getting involved in politics? I don't think so. There are plenty
0:15:57 > 0:16:00of politicians around that the police dislike more than Damian
0:16:00 > 0:16:06Green. He would not be top of the list. I know him a little and he is
0:16:06 > 0:16:14an honest man with integrity. I would not anticipate he is doing
0:16:14 > 0:16:17this maliciously or anything else. It would just appear to be you have
0:16:17 > 0:16:19police officers with some information and they have shared it
0:16:19 > 0:16:25in the way they have.Meanwhile, the politics is getting Commper coated.
0:16:25 > 0:16:29Cabinet Office investigations into the conduct of Damian Green is
0:16:29 > 0:16:36expected to report imminently. The Brexit secretary, David Davis, has
0:16:36 > 0:16:38apparently told friends he may resign if Damian Green is forced
0:16:38 > 0:16:42out.
0:16:42 > 0:16:44Dominic Grieve is a Conservative MP, former Attorney General
0:16:44 > 0:16:46and was Shadow Home Secretary at the time
0:16:46 > 0:16:47of Damian Green's arrest in 2008.
0:16:47 > 0:16:54Tim Brain is former Chief Constable of Gloucestershire.
0:16:54 > 0:16:59Very nice of you both to come in this evening. Do you accept this was
0:16:59 > 0:17:04unacceptable behaviour? It is chilling that police should have
0:17:04 > 0:17:07your computer and once they have it they can use it against you whenever
0:17:07 > 0:17:12they want.They are not using a computer against you, we are looking
0:17:12 > 0:17:18at notes that the others are kept and has kept for a long time. I
0:17:18 > 0:17:22don't know if he was told to destroy them. Interesting he was told to
0:17:22 > 0:17:27destroy them. I find that quite an interesting observation that was
0:17:27 > 0:17:31made. I have got at home lots of police records that go back 40 years
0:17:31 > 0:17:35of that there is nothing odd about individual officers keeping their
0:17:35 > 0:17:40own notes. No one has ever told me to destroy any of that. We're not
0:17:40 > 0:17:45looking at the computer, we are looking at somebody's collection of
0:17:45 > 0:17:52what is considered to be important. We have to put this into context of
0:17:52 > 0:17:55has unravelled. Have to go back to the Weinstein revelations and the
0:17:55 > 0:18:00moral panic that gripped Westminster in the immediate aftermath of that.
0:18:00 > 0:18:03Allegations were made. Cabinet Office enquiry has opened up and
0:18:03 > 0:18:07police officers have come forward with what bigoted to be relevant
0:18:07 > 0:18:13information to that in choir in. That is what we are talking about.
0:18:13 > 0:18:18-- they believe to be relevant information.Do think it is about
0:18:18 > 0:18:25whether a minister has had pornography on his computer?It is a
0:18:25 > 0:18:29workplace computer. Are we happy that our MPs can have this kind of
0:18:29 > 0:18:34material on what is an official computer? As a member of the public,
0:18:34 > 0:18:39I would like to know the answer to that. Nobody is doubting the fact
0:18:39 > 0:18:44there is some kind of electronic trace of this particular deal on a
0:18:44 > 0:18:49computer. We need to have some answers. Now this information is in
0:18:49 > 0:18:55the public domain.Let's ask Dominic Grieve.Are you happy? This cannot
0:18:55 > 0:19:03be right. Other citizens do not have these powers to investigate crime,
0:19:03 > 0:19:06including carrying out acts like acquiring data that nobody scan. It
0:19:06 > 0:19:11is for the purpose of a criminal investigation. -- else can. They
0:19:11 > 0:19:16acquire that information, whether it is correct or not. Many years later
0:19:16 > 0:19:19they decide to put it into the public domain because we think it
0:19:19 > 0:19:26will make an important point. They are in breach of their own code of
0:19:26 > 0:19:30conduct. If they thought it was relevant to this enquiry, what they
0:19:30 > 0:19:35should have done was to go to Cressida Dick, the Chief
0:19:35 > 0:19:38Commissioner, and to say, might this be relevant to the inquiry being
0:19:38 > 0:19:45carried out at the Cabinet Office? And then it would be handed over.
0:19:45 > 0:19:50Lewis offered to go to the inquiry but they did not take him up on it.
0:19:50 > 0:19:53There is this information about the minister who was back in the
0:19:53 > 0:19:58spotlight shouldn't they be doing the public service by coming forward
0:19:58 > 0:20:03and saying yes, we remember this, even if it was a decade ago?
0:20:03 > 0:20:08Certainly not. I was Attorney General. In my time as Attorney
0:20:08 > 0:20:11General I have acquired allsorts of information which would be grossly
0:20:11 > 0:20:16improper for me to put into the public domain.Even if there was
0:20:16 > 0:20:22pornography which was being looked at by Damian Green? You are saying
0:20:22 > 0:20:26no relevance now.The police went to Westminster in 2008 because there
0:20:26 > 0:20:33was an allegation of a breach of the Official Secrets Act. They carried
0:20:33 > 0:20:36out a pack handed investigation which attracted a lot of criticism.
0:20:36 > 0:20:40I don't know what they found in the course of that enquiry but it is
0:20:40 > 0:20:44apparent what they found is not criminal. Even on their own say-so
0:20:44 > 0:20:51it did not lead to any criminal prosecution, nor any criminal
0:20:51 > 0:20:55investigation, a separate one. Eight years later, they choose to put
0:20:55 > 0:20:59material which an ordinary citizen would be prohibited from acquiring
0:20:59 > 0:21:08under data protection rules into the public domain on their own judgment.
0:21:08 > 0:21:11There is a way of dealing with that. If you think something is relevant,
0:21:11 > 0:21:14you do it by proper official means also you do not go freelancing, as
0:21:14 > 0:21:17these officers have done. It has the smack of the police state about it.
0:21:17 > 0:21:25It is worrying. Is it about a vendetta?I think we have to look at
0:21:25 > 0:21:29Mr Lewis today. I have never seen that officer before in my life until
0:21:29 > 0:21:34we have seen the images today for some he does not strike me as a
0:21:34 > 0:21:37vengeful person going through a series of vengeful acts. Was he
0:21:37 > 0:21:42right to do it? We have to look at a different motivation. Police
0:21:42 > 0:21:46officers can feel very strongly about information they might feel
0:21:46 > 0:21:50the public should know about that is being suppressed. These officers are
0:21:50 > 0:21:56taking a risk in doing what they are doing. The first risk is the
0:21:56 > 0:22:01internal enquiry. The second risk is the court of public scrutiny through
0:22:01 > 0:22:06a slander or libel action. They have taken a big risk. I asked the
0:22:06 > 0:22:11question, why have they been able to take the big risk, other than they
0:22:11 > 0:22:16feel it is information which should get into the public domain?What
0:22:16 > 0:22:21should happen now? Should it go to Cressida Dick? Should the PM
0:22:21 > 0:22:26dismissed the investigation as a result of these actions?Where are
0:22:26 > 0:22:31you? There was an allegation against Damian Green of misconduct, which is
0:22:31 > 0:22:36being enquired into by the Cabinet Office. He denies it was that it is
0:22:36 > 0:22:40a serious allegation and quite rightly it should be investigated. I
0:22:40 > 0:22:49am not sure I understand the alleged link between that enquiry on the
0:22:49 > 0:22:51allegations of an illegal kind which was found on his computer. He denied
0:22:51 > 0:23:00the access to it. You believe it. The issue at the moment is, is it
0:23:00 > 0:23:05proper for two retired police officers in breach of the police
0:23:05 > 0:23:10code of conduct to take information which they acquired, or say they
0:23:10 > 0:23:15acquired, during the course of a criminal investigation it into the
0:23:15 > 0:23:18public domain?We know that with historic cases, people are always
0:23:18 > 0:23:23been blamed for not coming forward with information they had at their
0:23:23 > 0:23:28fingertips.We give the police powers others do not have. They do
0:23:28 > 0:23:32not and must not be allowed to abuse those powers full stop there are
0:23:32 > 0:23:35ways of dealing with allegations. The police thought this was
0:23:35 > 0:23:39relevant. There are perfectly clear channels for dealing with it. Not by
0:23:39 > 0:23:46going to the press.What we are seeing here is exactly what the
0:23:46 > 0:23:50politicians would like, to focus on the police are not themselves.Thank
0:23:50 > 0:23:54you both very much indeed.
0:23:54 > 0:23:55On Monday, we brought you extraordinary and distressing
0:23:55 > 0:23:58pictures from Eastern Ghouta - the part of Syria just outside
0:23:58 > 0:24:01the capital Damascus - that has been under siege for years.
0:24:01 > 0:24:03This week, the United Nations called for the urgent evacuation
0:24:03 > 0:24:05of hundreds of the sick and injured.
0:24:05 > 0:24:07And tonight, this programme has gathered evidence that
0:24:07 > 0:24:09food shortages have led to child starvation -
0:24:09 > 0:24:12and the most widespread malnutrition of the vicious civil war.
0:24:12 > 0:24:13Here's Mike Thomson - and a warning
0:24:13 > 0:24:22that it contains distressing images.
0:24:22 > 0:24:28This is what siege means. Young children are among the first to
0:24:28 > 0:24:34suffer. This is an eight-year-old child. Who in the world would accept
0:24:34 > 0:24:42that?Do you think it is normal? He should be taller and stronger.After
0:24:42 > 0:24:46nearly four years of siege, the third of children surveyed in
0:24:46 > 0:24:51eastern Ghouta are stunted, due to malnutrition.We are nine people in
0:24:51 > 0:24:55the house. We have one meal a day until the next morning. At night he
0:24:55 > 0:25:01does not sleep. He would pick up anything off the floor to eat.With
0:25:01 > 0:25:05only tiny amounts of aid now trickling in, the UN says the plight
0:25:05 > 0:25:14of the area per flight children has reached crisis proportions.The kit
0:25:14 > 0:25:17manager issued today is five times higher than it was ten months ago
0:25:17 > 0:25:22when we did, or the last malnutrition assessment, close to
0:25:22 > 0:25:2812% of children are facing today acute malnutrition in eastern
0:25:28 > 0:25:33Ghouta. That is the highest level of the cute malnutrition we have ever
0:25:33 > 0:25:37recorded across Syria.There is little food for sale in the markets
0:25:37 > 0:25:43and the prices are now beyond the reach of most. Bread costs 85 times
0:25:43 > 0:25:48the price it does in neighbouring Damascus. And, as winter sets in,
0:25:48 > 0:25:55the price of a cylinder of gas has topped $300.It is not enough that
0:25:55 > 0:25:59we are hungry and cold. We are covering ourselves with nylon sheets
0:25:59 > 0:26:05to keep as warm and lighting fires to cook. God help us extra is what
0:26:05 > 0:26:11we are like barn animals now. We eat barley.What can I say? With few if
0:26:11 > 0:26:17any nutrients to hand out, doctors are Rovman Powell is to help.We are
0:26:17 > 0:26:20witnessing incidents where children are fainting at school because
0:26:20 > 0:26:24parents are sending their children to school without having breakfast,
0:26:24 > 0:26:29and sometimes without even having dinner. Within 24 hours a child
0:26:29 > 0:26:34sometimes receives no meals.With food and medical supplies vanishing,
0:26:34 > 0:26:40and this week plus my brief ceasefire now at an end, the UN is
0:26:40 > 0:26:44desperately trying to get those with the most urgent medical needs
0:26:44 > 0:26:50evacuated. Local officials insist the area's malnourished children
0:26:50 > 0:26:58must be brought out too.If we wait another month, 11th percent of
0:26:58 > 0:27:09children, most of them will die. -- 11%. Most of them are critical.Over
0:27:09 > 0:27:13recent weeks, many families have lived in their basements, the only
0:27:13 > 0:27:17places offering shelter from the bombs and mortars. But there is no
0:27:17 > 0:27:23refuge from hunger.We are picking up anything we can, even food from
0:27:23 > 0:27:30the bins. My twin babies are dying. We need milk come just for the
0:27:30 > 0:27:36twins. Everything is expensive. For the sake of God, open the road. We
0:27:36 > 0:27:45are dying, dying of hunger.Having created this hunger, bringing the
0:27:45 > 0:27:49rebel enclave to its knees, only victory might persuade the Syrian
0:27:49 > 0:27:52government to break its own siege.
0:27:52 > 0:27:53Mike Thomson.
0:27:53 > 0:27:55Lina Khatib is head of the Middle East programme
0:27:55 > 0:27:59at the Chatham House think tank.
0:27:59 > 0:28:05Just seeing some of those images seems incomprehensible. This is
0:28:05 > 0:28:10meant to be the de-escalation zone, an area where things are getting
0:28:10 > 0:28:16better.Actually, things never got better in Ghouta. It has been under
0:28:16 > 0:28:21siege for four years now. It is only nominally part of the de-escalation
0:28:21 > 0:28:25zone agreement. We are seeing an escalation, as we can see. The
0:28:25 > 0:28:30ceasefire that was in place for a short period of time has quickly
0:28:30 > 0:28:36ended. Since mid-November we have seen around 250 air strikes in the
0:28:36 > 0:28:46area.The humanitarian corridor has been shut off by the forces of
0:28:46 > 0:28:49Assad. Why is that still in place if he feels dominant there?He does not
0:28:49 > 0:28:54yet feel he has one. The strategy the regime is using in eastern
0:28:54 > 0:28:58Ghouta has been used in other areas which got a lot of media attention
0:28:58 > 0:29:04because there was a famine in that area. It was used in homes and also
0:29:04 > 0:29:10eastern Aleppo. It is a strategy. Until the regime is satisfied that
0:29:10 > 0:29:14the rebel groups holding these areas have essentially broken down, it
0:29:14 > 0:29:19will not lift the siege. Unfortunately it is not over yet in
0:29:19 > 0:29:26eastern Ghouta.If you're looking and saying there should be used that
0:29:26 > 0:29:30the absence of ices should have given Syrian people hope, shouldn't
0:29:30 > 0:29:39it? -- Isis.This is the problem when only the terrorist angle is
0:29:39 > 0:29:44focused upon. The conflict is about more than terrorism. It is
0:29:44 > 0:29:49essentially about a regime that has been oppressing its people and this
0:29:49 > 0:29:54oppression contributed to the rise of terrorism and other things. So,
0:29:54 > 0:30:00Ghouta has nothing to do with Isis. It has been running parallel to the
0:30:00 > 0:30:09Isis problem. In four years of sieges, Isis only rose since 2013.
0:30:09 > 0:30:15Ghouta was under siege since 2013. When you look back over this period,
0:30:15 > 0:30:21what are the strategic points missed? Should there have been an
0:30:21 > 0:30:25intervention on Assad sooner Cuesta was when Putin came in? What do you
0:30:25 > 0:30:31think?At various points, the West could have done a number of things
0:30:31 > 0:30:36it did not do. Very early on there could have been some form of
0:30:36 > 0:30:40diplomatic brokering that did not happen. Some say the red line drawn
0:30:40 > 0:30:45in the sand by President Obama in 2013 when he said the US would
0:30:45 > 0:30:49attack whether evidence of use of chemical weapons in Syria, a lot of
0:30:49 > 0:30:53people say that was a mistake will stop a lot of things could have
0:30:53 > 0:31:03happened and did not happen.Thank you very much indeed for joining us.
0:31:03 > 0:31:07From all of us here on Newsnight. Good night. We
0:31:07 > 0:31:09Good night. We will be back on Monday.