0:00:12 > 0:00:14No justice - no peace!
0:00:14 > 0:00:16Tonight - the council has allocated more than £200 million
0:00:16 > 0:00:17for Grenfell residents.
0:00:17 > 0:00:26So why is it taking so long to find people new homes?
0:00:26 > 0:00:29We have to be patient.
0:00:31 > 0:00:33We have to be patient.
0:00:33 > 0:00:35And also considering moving into a place is one thing,
0:00:35 > 0:00:37moving into a place which will have to become your
0:00:37 > 0:00:38home is another thing.
0:00:38 > 0:00:42So, for me, it's, like, OK, if I move into a place it has to be
0:00:42 > 0:00:45something I can turn into a home and I'll be
0:00:45 > 0:00:47there for the rest of my life.
0:00:47 > 0:00:49We'll discuss housing and the public enquiry
0:00:49 > 0:00:51with a solicitor representing 17 families and an expert in how
0:00:51 > 0:00:53to run housing like this.
0:00:53 > 0:00:55Also tonight, Brexit will be great for animals -
0:00:55 > 0:01:01declared the Environment Secretary today.
0:01:01 > 0:01:03Of course we must do more, and we will.
0:01:03 > 0:01:05We will make sure that in law there is appropriate protection
0:01:05 > 0:01:07for animals which recognises that they are sentient,
0:01:07 > 0:01:10that they can feel pain, and that it's our responsibility to make
0:01:10 > 0:01:11sure their welfare is protected.
0:01:11 > 0:01:14Why are the Tories so keen to prove their love of our
0:01:14 > 0:01:15four legged friends.
0:01:15 > 0:01:18And what does it say about the party's political positioning?
0:01:18 > 0:01:19We'll discuss.
0:01:19 > 0:01:20And...
0:01:20 > 0:01:21The Last Jedi will dominate the papers tomorrow.
0:01:21 > 0:01:24What did they really think of the latest Star Wars incarnation?
0:01:24 > 0:01:34We have the first reviews.
0:01:36 > 0:01:38Good evening.
0:01:39 > 0:01:41Six months ago, after the fire at Grenfell Tower,
0:01:41 > 0:01:44I interviewed the Prime Minister.
0:01:44 > 0:01:46She promised the residents they would be rehoused
0:01:46 > 0:01:47within three weeks.
0:01:47 > 0:01:49Two weeks before Christmas, more than a hundred households
0:01:49 > 0:01:50are still in hotel rooms.
0:01:50 > 0:01:52So where have things gone wrong?
0:01:52 > 0:01:54The council has allotted huge sums of money for rehousing -
0:01:54 > 0:01:57Kensington and CHelsea have set aside £235 million to secure
0:01:57 > 0:01:59accommodation for the people made homeless by the fire.
0:01:59 > 0:02:00So why is it is stalling?
0:02:00 > 0:02:10David Grossman reports.
0:02:18 > 0:02:19Justice for Grenfell!
0:02:20 > 0:02:21Justice for Grenfell!
0:02:21 > 0:02:22No justice!
0:02:22 > 0:02:23No peace!
0:02:23 > 0:02:24No justice!
0:02:24 > 0:02:26No peace!
0:02:26 > 0:02:28This protest outside the Council offices last week was only
0:02:28 > 0:02:32a fraction of the size of the ones in the summer.
0:02:32 > 0:02:35They are living a second trauma because they're not considered
0:02:35 > 0:02:38worthy enough to be given housing...
0:02:38 > 0:02:40The focus of this is to demand permanent
0:02:40 > 0:02:43new homes for the survivors.
0:02:43 > 0:02:46There are still people stuck in hotels with their children.
0:02:46 > 0:02:48Their children are in a room next door.
0:02:48 > 0:02:50It is not an adjoining room so the children
0:02:50 > 0:02:52will sleep with the parents.
0:02:52 > 0:02:56So then you may have a family of five in one room.
0:02:56 > 0:02:58Because actually they don't want their children in the next room,
0:02:58 > 0:03:00they want to keep an eye on them.
0:03:00 > 0:03:02It is a really horrible way to live.
0:03:02 > 0:03:04Christmas is coming, they're going to spend
0:03:04 > 0:03:05Christmas in hotels.
0:03:05 > 0:03:07Not much has changed on the tower itself,
0:03:07 > 0:03:09but what has the council done for the residents who
0:03:09 > 0:03:12survived this disaster?
0:03:12 > 0:03:15One fact that has hugely complicated matters for the Council
0:03:15 > 0:03:17is that the number of houses or flats they are
0:03:17 > 0:03:21looking for has gone up by more than 50% since the tragedy.
0:03:21 > 0:03:24As groups of people who were housed in one unit inside the tower have
0:03:24 > 0:03:31elected to be rehoused in two or sometimes more units outside.
0:03:31 > 0:03:34That means what was originally a search for 138 new houses or flats
0:03:34 > 0:03:39has become a search for 210.
0:03:39 > 0:03:42Of that total just 45 households are now in new, permanent homes.
0:03:42 > 0:03:4754 are in temporary accommodation.
0:03:47 > 0:03:50And 111 are still in emergency accommodation.
0:03:50 > 0:03:55That is typically hotel rooms.
0:03:55 > 0:03:58That figure includes Antonio Roncolato.
0:03:58 > 0:04:02He was one of the last people to be rescued from Grenfell.
0:04:02 > 0:04:05He was trapped on the tenth floor of the burning tower for five hours.
0:04:05 > 0:04:07He shared his flat with his adult son.
0:04:07 > 0:04:10They will now be rehoused separately.
0:04:10 > 0:04:13In terms of finding permanent accommodation, it's not easy.
0:04:13 > 0:04:15And obviously we have had our assessment with the council,
0:04:15 > 0:04:19with my housing officer.
0:04:19 > 0:04:21And there are some requirements that we have requested
0:04:21 > 0:04:25and I understand that it takes time and it takes a little bit of...
0:04:25 > 0:04:27We have to be patient.
0:04:27 > 0:04:29And also considering that moving into a place is one thing,
0:04:29 > 0:04:32moving into a place which will have to become your home
0:04:32 > 0:04:38is another thing.
0:04:38 > 0:04:42So it's like, OK, if I move into a place, it has to be something
0:04:42 > 0:04:43that I can turn into a home.
0:04:43 > 0:04:46And I will be there for the rest of my life.
0:04:46 > 0:04:49So therefore I might have to turn down one, two or three.
0:04:49 > 0:04:50I don't know how many.
0:04:50 > 0:04:53Are the council putting any pressure on you to accept anything?
0:04:53 > 0:04:56No, you know, they're lately, for the last two or three months,
0:04:56 > 0:04:58they have been very active in showing, in trying.
0:04:58 > 0:05:00And I must say I appreciate that.
0:05:00 > 0:05:08But in the sense of pressure, no.
0:05:08 > 0:05:11It is understandable that Antonio and other Grenfell survivors
0:05:11 > 0:05:16don't want to be rushed.
0:05:16 > 0:05:19According to one housing charity, this is straining a system not used
0:05:19 > 0:05:23to providing choice.
0:05:23 > 0:05:25We have a real crisis in affordable housing in this country.
0:05:25 > 0:05:29And we have a social housing system that doesn't give people any choice.
0:05:29 > 0:05:32Once you actually start asking people what they want,
0:05:32 > 0:05:37you then have to deal with the fact that actually it can't be delivered.
0:05:37 > 0:05:40So I think what we are seeing is a system that is not used
0:05:40 > 0:05:46to any element of choice and is very disempowering.
0:05:46 > 0:05:49Suddenly when you're trying to empower people within that system
0:05:49 > 0:05:53and give them some choice, the system simply can't cope.
0:05:53 > 0:05:56To provide choice, the council has put aside £235 million to buy
0:05:56 > 0:06:01new houses and flats for the survivors of Grenfell Tower.
0:06:01 > 0:06:06That works out at £1.7 million per original household.
0:06:06 > 0:06:09This doesn't include the cost of hotels, new furniture,
0:06:09 > 0:06:12resettlement grants and writing off rent and service charges
0:06:12 > 0:06:14in the new homes until June 2019.
0:06:14 > 0:06:16These are being paid for from another budget.
0:06:16 > 0:06:20This is the living space and the kitchen.
0:06:20 > 0:06:22And then through here you've got two bedrooms...
0:06:22 > 0:06:24The council showed us this place that they bought
0:06:24 > 0:06:27for a Grenfell survivor.
0:06:27 > 0:06:29It's in a low-rise block of privately owned flats
0:06:29 > 0:06:33not far from the tower.
0:06:33 > 0:06:36The director of housing wouldn't tell me what they paid for it,
0:06:36 > 0:06:39but similar flats seemed to go for around £850,000.
0:06:39 > 0:06:43We still do have people in hotels, that's true.
0:06:43 > 0:06:46We've got 28 families with children under 18 in hotels.
0:06:46 > 0:06:49Now, 16 of those have accepted something, so they will be moving
0:06:49 > 0:06:52on and we are trying to support them at the moment to do that
0:06:52 > 0:06:56as soon as possible.
0:06:56 > 0:06:58But we have got 12 families who haven't accepted an offer.
0:06:58 > 0:07:02So we're working as hard as we can with them to try and get something
0:07:02 > 0:07:04that meets their needs and their preferences.
0:07:04 > 0:07:07Because of what people have been through, most people want to live
0:07:07 > 0:07:09at lower floor levels.
0:07:09 > 0:07:14Most people would like a bit of outside space.
0:07:14 > 0:07:16A lot of people want to be in the North Kensington
0:07:16 > 0:07:17area, not everybody.
0:07:17 > 0:07:21And we have got to meet all of those desires with the properties
0:07:21 > 0:07:24that we are acquiring.
0:07:24 > 0:07:26But that doesn't include residents of the surrounding blocks
0:07:26 > 0:07:30who were evacuated during the fire.
0:07:30 > 0:07:33The blocks themselves were undamaged although the heating and hot water
0:07:33 > 0:07:34systems were destroyed.
0:07:34 > 0:07:37They have now been replaced and two thirds of the residents have
0:07:37 > 0:07:38returned to their homes.
0:07:38 > 0:07:40But 109 households don't want to go back.
0:07:40 > 0:07:42Some of them don't feel ready to return.
0:07:42 > 0:07:45For example until the tower is wrapped or some of
0:07:45 > 0:07:47those kind of decisions.
0:07:47 > 0:07:51So what we're saying to those people is we will rent you a property
0:07:51 > 0:07:54in the private rented sector locally in Kensington and Chelsea
0:07:54 > 0:07:59for you to move into whilst you take stock of what you want to do next.
0:07:59 > 0:08:03And then we will work with them quite intensively over the next few
0:08:03 > 0:08:05months to see what they want to do.
0:08:05 > 0:08:06Do they want to return home.
0:08:06 > 0:08:09Or obviously we have got a consultation out at the moment
0:08:09 > 0:08:10around awarding people points for priority on the
0:08:10 > 0:08:11housing register.
0:08:11 > 0:08:14So actually if they feel that they can't be on the estate,
0:08:14 > 0:08:20that they've got the opportunity to move.
0:08:20 > 0:08:27But that is not enough of an assurance for Thomasina Hessel.
0:08:27 > 0:08:30She shared a hotel room with her son Jesse for six months.
0:08:30 > 0:08:33She doesn't want to go back to her flat near the base of the tower,
0:08:33 > 0:08:36but doesn't feel there is enough certainty of what will happen
0:08:36 > 0:08:39in the long-term to move out of this hotel room into a temporary flat.
0:08:39 > 0:08:42They have not made me any offers, first of all.
0:08:42 > 0:08:44And they have made some of my neighbours offers and insisted
0:08:44 > 0:08:47that they make decisions based on this draft housing policy
0:08:47 > 0:08:51that they have going.
0:08:51 > 0:08:54And I think that is unfair because it is a draft policy.
0:08:54 > 0:08:57Anything can change so anyone making a decision now is making it
0:08:57 > 0:08:59on something that may not exist in a month's time.
0:08:59 > 0:09:02So that is unfair.
0:09:02 > 0:09:05Their reason for doing that in my view is because A,
0:09:05 > 0:09:08it saves them money to get people out by Christmas.
0:09:08 > 0:09:10And B, it makes them look good.
0:09:10 > 0:09:13Is part of the problem though, that in the initial rush to help,
0:09:13 > 0:09:16residents were led to believe that rehousing would take place
0:09:16 > 0:09:22at an ultra fast pace?
0:09:22 > 0:09:24Here's the Prime Minister on this programme in June,
0:09:24 > 0:09:26two days after the fire.
0:09:26 > 0:09:29Other things we will do as well to provide support for people,
0:09:29 > 0:09:32to ensure they are rehoused within three weeks...
0:09:32 > 0:09:35Today a group of survivors and the bereaved from Grenfell
0:09:35 > 0:09:37arrived at Downing Street to remind the Prime Minister
0:09:37 > 0:09:40of this commitment.
0:09:40 > 0:09:43We were given promises by Theresa May that they would be
0:09:43 > 0:09:46housed in three weeks.
0:09:46 > 0:09:48It is coming up to Christmas, it is six months.
0:09:48 > 0:09:50Thursday will be a telling day.
0:09:50 > 0:09:52You know, if she is coming to the memorial service,
0:09:52 > 0:09:54we hope that she comes with a message of positivity
0:09:54 > 0:09:56and you know, things that have been accomplished rather
0:09:56 > 0:10:03than empty promises.
0:10:03 > 0:10:06Nothing can change what happened here six months ago.
0:10:06 > 0:10:09Rehousing those who lost homes and loved ones is only the start
0:10:09 > 0:10:14of trying to repair the damage.
0:10:14 > 0:10:17But it is clear there is still a long way to go,
0:10:17 > 0:10:21even on that limited objective.
0:10:21 > 0:10:24David Grossman there.
0:10:24 > 0:10:26Let's get some reaction to what we've just seen and look
0:10:26 > 0:10:29ahead to the inquiry which has been meeting for the first time
0:10:29 > 0:10:32to discuss the parameters and how best to effect it.
0:10:32 > 0:10:34Emma Norris works at the Institute for Government and has been working
0:10:34 > 0:10:37on how public inquiries can be carried out most effectively,
0:10:37 > 0:10:39Cyrilia Davies Knight is a solicitor for 13
0:10:39 > 0:10:42of the Grenfell Tower families.
0:10:42 > 0:10:49It's nice to be here.What do you understand from your families is the
0:10:49 > 0:10:54hold-up with the housing right now for them?Good question. Actually
0:10:54 > 0:11:01I'm unclear as to what the delay is with the housing. A lot of my
0:11:01 > 0:11:05clients whom I represent remaining hotels, in temporary accommodation,
0:11:05 > 0:11:11and it's unclear what the issue is with rehousing them.The money is
0:11:11 > 0:11:15there. This huge sum of £235 million which has been put aside by the
0:11:15 > 0:11:22council. Are the people you are representing very keen to get into
0:11:22 > 0:11:27their new houses? Where is the delay, do you think?Certainly my
0:11:27 > 0:11:32clients are keen to get into their new houses. I represent vulnerable,
0:11:32 > 0:11:39some bereaved, and some survivors, and indeed they would like to be
0:11:39 > 0:11:45rehoused as quickly as possible. However, they are not prepared to
0:11:45 > 0:11:50accept accommodation that is inadequate or substandard to what
0:11:50 > 0:11:55they had.Do you think they are being offered... It was very hard to
0:11:55 > 0:12:01see... The apartments we were seen inside of, something around
0:12:01 > 0:12:08£850,000, they looked incredible, but you think what is being offered
0:12:08 > 0:12:16is substandard?There needs to be a thorough means tested assessment. So
0:12:16 > 0:12:18that the clients I represent are given appropriate accommodation for
0:12:18 > 0:12:26their needs. Many of my clients, as I said, are vulnerable and
0:12:26 > 0:12:31traumatised. And the delay in being rehoused isn't helping them. I'm not
0:12:31 > 0:12:35sure what the delay is but I do know it is unhelpful.David was
0:12:35 > 0:12:42explaining the numbers. What started off as 138 families needing to be
0:12:42 > 0:12:47rehoused has now become a search for 210 households because they have
0:12:47 > 0:12:52splintered off. Antonio said his son wanted his own house. Some people
0:12:52 > 0:12:57want to move out from parents or other relatives. Was that always
0:12:57 > 0:13:03going to be part of the process? How does that work in terms of these
0:13:03 > 0:13:08increasing numbers?I can only speak for those I represent. What I would
0:13:08 > 0:13:13say is that it is absolutely paramount that those affected by
0:13:13 > 0:13:16this disaster are rehoused as quickly as possible, as promised by
0:13:16 > 0:13:25our Prime Minister.Emma, look ahead for us to the enquiry, there is a
0:13:25 > 0:13:30lot of momentum at the beginning of these things. I guess the key is
0:13:30 > 0:13:34that some of that actually drives through to results, right?I think
0:13:34 > 0:13:39that's right. You've picked up on one of the key issue straightaway. A
0:13:39 > 0:13:45successful enquiry isn't about what happened at the beginning of an
0:13:45 > 0:13:48enquiry or during, but afterwards. Often that is where some of our
0:13:48 > 0:13:53institutions are at their weakest. We need to see the up with a
0:13:53 > 0:13:56powerful set of recommendations for change. But we also need to see the
0:13:56 > 0:14:00Government act upon them, and that is often where enquiries fall down.
0:14:00 > 0:14:10As an enquiry got a dual role? I wonder how much of an enquiry is
0:14:10 > 0:14:15catharsis and how much you need to see things...Good question. The
0:14:15 > 0:14:19enquiries are there to answer three questions. What happened, who is
0:14:19 > 0:14:24responsible to some extent, and what can we learn from what happened.
0:14:24 > 0:14:27Those first two questions speak to that emotional catharsis you
0:14:27 > 0:14:32mentioned. At the moment the community is understandably
0:14:32 > 0:14:36mistrustful of the enquiry process. It got off to a rocky start. There
0:14:36 > 0:14:41are some signs things are getting better. The chair has appointed a
0:14:41 > 0:14:44community engagement specialist to the panel. But we know from past
0:14:44 > 0:14:51enquiries the dangers of failing to listen to victims and families.
0:14:51 > 0:14:54Hillsborough, for example, examples of when there were failures to put
0:14:54 > 0:14:57the victims at the heart of the process.You've seen enough of these
0:14:57 > 0:15:01enquiries to know that they often don't deliver, right? How many times
0:15:01 > 0:15:07do we get to the end of an enquiry, the victims seem unhappy, the public
0:15:07 > 0:15:10doesn't trust them, there is no sense anything is going to change.
0:15:10 > 0:15:16Do enquiries really work?
0:15:16 > 0:15:20Public enquiries are one of the only tools we have to look independently
0:15:20 > 0:15:26as some of the worst tragedies that we experience as a society. We need
0:15:26 > 0:15:32to seek government be far better in setting out how to implement
0:15:32 > 0:15:37recommendations and parliament following up on that. Looking back
0:15:37 > 0:15:41at the 68 enquiries that have taken place since 1990, only six have
0:15:41 > 0:15:46received full follow-up by Parliament.We need to do better
0:15:46 > 0:15:50than that. Looking at what is coming in and your families, is there a
0:15:50 > 0:15:58sense of expectation?I think my clients are distrusting and
0:15:58 > 0:16:06expectations are quite low. I have to say. I think that housing is one
0:16:06 > 0:16:10of the key points that needs to be addressed first and foremost in
0:16:10 > 0:16:13order to help rebuild the trust and confidence in the process that they
0:16:13 > 0:16:21are subjected to. I think other things can be done to help rebuild
0:16:21 > 0:16:25that trust. There needs to be a commitment to psychological one of
0:16:25 > 0:16:33our fire and well-being. Psychological welfare. This needs to
0:16:33 > 0:16:39start sooner rather than later, the enquiry. There needs to be equality
0:16:39 > 0:16:44when the enquiry comes to start.I wonder if you also think that the
0:16:44 > 0:16:49enquiry is up against a particular difficulty when social media can
0:16:49 > 0:16:53spread a sense of not trusting the right person or questioning the
0:16:53 > 0:16:58judges or the figures. It can be very useful tool but also exacerbate
0:16:58 > 0:17:06worries and concerns or perhaps they do not know.That is why it's
0:17:06 > 0:17:10important to make sure you're involved in the community and with
0:17:10 > 0:17:16the victims properly. Looking at the Hillsborough inquest, they gave the
0:17:16 > 0:17:21Brive the opportunity to talk about the people they had lost as part of
0:17:21 > 0:17:24the inquest process and I think adopting a similar process in this
0:17:24 > 0:17:29enquiry would make sure that the victims are at the heart of it.So
0:17:29 > 0:17:35there is a sense of them and us, are you going into this thinking you're
0:17:35 > 0:17:41doing battle almost?I would not say we're doing battle. I think it is
0:17:41 > 0:17:50clear and it has been made clear that my clients feel they have been,
0:17:50 > 0:17:53their voices have gone unheard, they have not been listened to or
0:17:53 > 0:18:00properly engaged thus far. There are distrusting. They want the truth,
0:18:00 > 0:18:02they want justice and accountability, they want the
0:18:02 > 0:18:07answers. There are many ways that can be achieved. That could be
0:18:07 > 0:18:13achieved through disclosure, disclosure needs to take place
0:18:13 > 0:18:19quickly of documents from the TMO, from the council, so they can feed
0:18:19 > 0:18:24into the process. They have lived this, this is their lives, their
0:18:24 > 0:18:34reality.Thank you both very much. And more on Grenfell Tower six
0:18:34 > 0:18:36months on over the next couple of nights.
0:18:36 > 0:18:39Environment Secretary Michael Gove has promised to make Brexit work
0:18:39 > 0:18:41not just for citizens but for the animals we love too.
0:18:41 > 0:18:44The Conservatives have been talking about animals a lot recently.
0:18:44 > 0:18:46The beavers that will be released into the wild.
0:18:46 > 0:18:48The puppies that will no longer be smuggled.
0:18:48 > 0:18:51The rare sea birds to be saved by an extension of the blue belt.
0:18:51 > 0:18:53Today Mr Gove promised higher sentences for animal cruelty,
0:18:53 > 0:18:58and to reflect animal sentience - their response to pain - in law.
0:18:58 > 0:19:03So why this concentration on animal rights, right now?
0:19:03 > 0:19:12Is it about more than just, well animals?
0:19:12 > 0:19:14Some people call us the nasty party.
0:19:14 > 0:19:16When Theresa May spoke of the danger all those years ago
0:19:16 > 0:19:22of being perceived as the nasty party, she struck a chord
0:19:22 > 0:19:24not just with voters, but with those in her own party
0:19:24 > 0:19:26who realised that perception of niceness was paramount.
0:19:26 > 0:19:29It was no coincidence that David Cameron as he rose to power
0:19:29 > 0:19:31spent time with husky dogs in the polar regions.
0:19:31 > 0:19:33The Conservatives, you see, were modern and compassionate
0:19:33 > 0:19:40and environmental.
0:19:40 > 0:19:42They even knew about veganism.
0:19:42 > 0:19:44They were, the theory ran, more palatable to younger,
0:19:44 > 0:19:47more liberal metropolitan voters as well as their rural base.
0:19:47 > 0:19:49But the austerity years took care of all that.
0:19:49 > 0:19:51The Huskies were put out into the cold again,
0:19:51 > 0:19:53in came badger culling, a free vote on fox hunting,
0:19:53 > 0:19:56the Green went True Blue.
0:19:56 > 0:19:59The viral story of the last election was a failure by the Conservatives
0:19:59 > 0:20:03to effect a manifesto promise of a ban on ivory imports.
0:20:03 > 0:20:07And last month a misunderstanding got reported and shared by millions,
0:20:07 > 0:20:10suggesting the Conservatives did not believe animals could feel pain.
0:20:10 > 0:20:13Had even voted against it.
0:20:13 > 0:20:14Even though the story was quickly disproved,
0:20:14 > 0:20:18the damage had been done.
0:20:18 > 0:20:21The Tories were back to being in some voters' minds
0:20:21 > 0:20:22the nasty party again.
0:20:22 > 0:20:26The damage control was instant.
0:20:26 > 0:20:29And in the last weeks and months we've seen DEFRA roll out policy
0:20:29 > 0:20:31after policy that shows the Conservatives' love of animals.
0:20:31 > 0:20:34None so enthusiastically perhaps as Michael Gove who since June has
0:20:34 > 0:20:38announced he will be saving trafficked puppies, freeing beavers,
0:20:38 > 0:20:39looking after animals in slaughterhouses.
0:20:39 > 0:20:49The list goes on.
0:20:49 > 0:20:50So does the party seem more caring?
0:20:50 > 0:20:52Are those younger, metropolitan liberal voters even listening?
0:20:52 > 0:20:56Or is the old image of the Tory out hunting to attempting to move on?
0:20:56 > 0:20:59I'm joined by Deborah Mattinson the founding partner of the research
0:20:59 > 0:21:01and polling organisation Britain Thinks and Jack Elsom who is
0:21:01 > 0:21:06the Chair of the London Universities Conservatives.
0:21:06 > 0:21:14Lovely to have you both. What is going on, does being nice to animals
0:21:14 > 0:21:17actually win votes?I'm a Young Conservative voter but it would be
0:21:17 > 0:21:20pretty foolish of me to come on here and say the Conservatives do not
0:21:20 > 0:21:24have a problem attracting young people. Deborah Bull tell you that
0:21:24 > 0:21:29I'm sure in a minute. But in my conversations not just in
0:21:29 > 0:21:33conservative circles that universities but with Labour and Lib
0:21:33 > 0:21:39Dem friends, it is not the hot topic of debate at universities. It is
0:21:39 > 0:21:42mainly towards Brexodus tuition fees.So do you mean that people
0:21:42 > 0:21:48think about it but not at the top, or do not talk about it at all?
0:21:48 > 0:21:51Really not at all but I do think having said that what Michael Gove
0:21:51 > 0:21:58said today is will -- will be able to unite students whether it is
0:21:58 > 0:22:02recognising that animals can feel pain or good news for animals about
0:22:02 > 0:22:12how sentences for maximum abuse... Well this is interesting, in
0:22:12 > 0:22:16university talking about these things and yet we are told that the
0:22:16 > 0:22:20stories that went viral during the election, that is the story about
0:22:20 > 0:22:28not fulfilling the Pledge on the ivory ban and this one on the
0:22:28 > 0:22:32sentience of animals, how are we getting this wrong.To say is not
0:22:32 > 0:22:35the hot topic is the understatement of the century, it has never made
0:22:35 > 0:22:42more than 1% of the issues... As any people tell you you have a small
0:22:42 > 0:22:47number of people who care a lot about animal rights. In a way what
0:22:47 > 0:22:53is not to like but actually it is not what drives younger voters or
0:22:53 > 0:22:57older voters for that matter. But the point about the election, fox
0:22:57 > 0:23:03hunting for example, the reason why that was noticed was because it
0:23:03 > 0:23:10struck a chord and it spoke to the Tory brand and is said to people
0:23:10 > 0:23:17this is what I believe the Tory brand to be about. Back to nasty.
0:23:17 > 0:23:21Unfortunately which I guess they're now trying to unpick again at the
0:23:21 > 0:23:25moment. Bad blood at the time people noticed that and people notice
0:23:25 > 0:23:31things when they sure up something they already believe.So is Michael
0:23:31 > 0:23:34Gove, as the Young Conservative is he right to go on about the animals
0:23:34 > 0:23:39now to try to chase people like you if you're already on board or if you
0:23:39 > 0:23:46do not really care. Is he wasting his time or will he bring people in?
0:23:46 > 0:23:51I do not think is wasting his time. It may not be the hot topic of
0:23:51 > 0:23:57debate at universities but I think it is important and students may not
0:23:57 > 0:24:01care as much about it as something like Brexit or tuition fees but I
0:24:01 > 0:24:06think there would be a big concern since among students about
0:24:06 > 0:24:10recognising the sentience of animals. And great news in terms of
0:24:10 > 0:24:14that sentencing for up to five years for the worst abusers.Do they trust
0:24:14 > 0:24:18the Tories to maintain the message, if you think back to David Cameron
0:24:18 > 0:24:23and the symbolism of the Tory party was the green oak tree and now with
0:24:23 > 0:24:28Brexit there is no green.Well we ran focus groups in the election and
0:24:28 > 0:24:32we asked people to think of the main party leaders and who would you
0:24:32 > 0:24:37trust most to look after your house on holiday. They said Theresa May
0:24:37 > 0:24:44but they would not trust her to look after their pet!Just bring up the
0:24:44 > 0:24:54page of the i newspaper tomorrow, Tories go green to win back the
0:24:54 > 0:24:57voters. Is that a strategy that you would say would be worth adopting
0:24:57 > 0:25:02again because David Cameron tried that and arguably it worked.It
0:25:02 > 0:25:05partially worked and I think the rebrand worked partially for a
0:25:05 > 0:25:09number of reasons and that was one of them, a striking photo
0:25:09 > 0:25:14opportunity. Well young voters in particular care about housing, they
0:25:14 > 0:25:20care about the economy, about jobs. The environment generally and animal
0:25:20 > 0:25:26rights in particular are very low on that agenda.So if you do care about
0:25:26 > 0:25:29animal rights and clearly there is a passionate constituency of people
0:25:29 > 0:25:37who do. Are they never going to vote Tory anyway, we'll always be green
0:25:37 > 0:25:42voters or Labour voters?They're never going to go first to you. Not
0:25:42 > 0:25:46at all, it is not at the top of the agenda in terms of what young people
0:25:46 > 0:25:50really care about but I would not say no when is going to like these
0:25:50 > 0:25:55policies or dislike them. I think students will get behind the fact
0:25:55 > 0:26:00that Michael Gove is putting animals of the top of his agenda. That might
0:26:00 > 0:26:04not be top of the student agenda which is more Brexit or tuition
0:26:04 > 0:26:09fees, but I think they could get on board with this.Is it done with
0:26:09 > 0:26:14conviction? I think there are other fish to fry, you are unusual as you
0:26:14 > 0:26:19know, just 15% of 18 to 24-year-olds say the Conservative Party is the
0:26:19 > 0:26:23party for me. And I think there are much bigger challenges than this is
0:26:23 > 0:26:27able to meet.Thank you both very much.
0:26:27 > 0:26:30After an ill judged comment on a radio show, the Brexit
0:26:30 > 0:26:33secretary David Davis has spent today trying to reassure top EU
0:26:33 > 0:26:36negotiators that Britain is not trying to wriggle out of a deal
0:26:36 > 0:26:37they agreed last week.
0:26:37 > 0:26:39Mr Davis has invited the EU to work with him to convert
0:26:39 > 0:26:42the conversation into a legal text as soon as possible.
0:26:42 > 0:26:44Tomorrow, things move on to the question of whether MPs
0:26:44 > 0:26:49will get the final say on the overall Brexit bill.
0:26:49 > 0:26:51The former attorney General Dominic Grieve is hoping
0:26:51 > 0:26:54to attract enough support to defeat the government in a vote on his
0:26:54 > 0:26:56rebel amendment in the commons.
0:26:56 > 0:26:58Nick Watt our political editor is here, explain
0:26:58 > 0:27:03what Mr Grieve is hoping to do?
0:27:03 > 0:27:08Do you think you will defeat the government? Well we have a
0:27:08 > 0:27:11government that is very nervous it could be about to suffer its first
0:27:11 > 0:27:16defeat on the EU Withdrawal Bill because the rebels led by Dominic
0:27:16 > 0:27:19Grieve the former Attorney General are digging in on their call for
0:27:19 > 0:27:24that meaningful vote on the deal figures out of the EU. Double is --
0:27:24 > 0:27:27so tomorrow we will get some warm words from the government and of
0:27:27 > 0:27:33course I will say we will not dream of using the powers in this
0:27:33 > 0:27:37legislation to sneak through that deal without consulting Parliament.
0:27:37 > 0:27:41The rebels saying not good enough. You have got to amend this bill and
0:27:41 > 0:27:45if you do not like the wording of Dominic Grieve you can fiddle around
0:27:45 > 0:27:50with them at the later report stage. I'm hearing the rebels saying the
0:27:50 > 0:27:53government is behaving in a cack-handed and bizarre ways so
0:27:53 > 0:28:00tonight we have this band. The cheap -- the Chief Whip Jordan Smith
0:28:00 > 0:28:04follows the example of never losing a vote so it is losing difficult, do
0:28:04 > 0:28:10a deal. But does Dominic Grieve have the numbers, he has nine Tory MPs
0:28:10 > 0:28:17signing his amendment plus others on his side. The rabble view is if they
0:28:17 > 0:28:23have ten they're getting there, if they have 15 they are in business.
0:28:23 > 0:28:28Also quite stern words from Michel Barnier to David Davis, is there a
0:28:28 > 0:28:33sense that he is really upset, that he has upset his European partners.
0:28:33 > 0:28:38I think there is some irritation with Michel Barnier and in Germany
0:28:38 > 0:28:43about this statement from David Davis that this was more kind of a
0:28:43 > 0:28:47statement of intent and Michel Barnier saying no backtracking.
0:28:47 > 0:28:51Michel Barnier also said the best that can be hoped for in these
0:28:51 > 0:28:55Brexit negotiations over the next two years is that you get a
0:28:55 > 0:28:59withdrawal agreement, you get an agreement on a transition and get
0:28:59 > 0:29:05the beginnings of a future trade deal and a kind of political
0:29:05 > 0:29:08statement of what that would mean. Which is not quite what David Davis
0:29:08 > 0:29:11is saying, he's saying I appreciate they cannot do a future trade deal
0:29:11 > 0:29:15in that Article 50 but they could do it at one minute past midnight.
0:29:15 > 0:29:19Michel Barnier saying no way and that raises questions about the
0:29:19 > 0:29:23British approach, nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. David
0:29:23 > 0:29:27Davis tonight saying I know what Michel Barnier is like, he uses time
0:29:27 > 0:29:31as a pressure point.Thank you very much.
0:29:31 > 0:29:34Time for Viewsnight now - the programme's place for opinion.
0:29:34 > 0:29:36Tonight it's Christopher Snowdon - the Head of Lifestyle Economics
0:29:36 > 0:29:38at the Institute of Economic Affairs and author of 'Killjoys'.
0:29:38 > 0:29:42He asks if we really need so many public health bodies telling us
0:29:42 > 0:29:50how to live our lives.
0:31:37 > 0:31:39Tomorrow's Times will hail the new Star Wars movie
0:31:39 > 0:31:42as the best one yet, calling it a film of wit
0:31:42 > 0:31:46and wonder and frequently devastating emotional power.
0:31:46 > 0:31:49The franchise has come a long way since the much criticised prequels -
0:31:49 > 0:31:52not least in terms the revival of its much loved
0:31:52 > 0:31:54original characters - at The Last Jedi's very centre -
0:31:54 > 0:31:57the actress Carrie Fisher who died a year ago and its creation
0:31:57 > 0:32:07of new powerful female roles.
0:32:12 > 0:32:16Something inside me has always been there.
0:32:16 > 0:32:18And now it's awake.
0:32:18 > 0:32:28And I need help.
0:32:28 > 0:32:30I've seen this raw strength only once before.
0:32:30 > 0:32:35It didn't scare me enough then.
0:32:35 > 0:32:40It does now.
0:32:40 > 0:32:43Joining us now is the film critic Anna Smith and, from Los Angeles,
0:32:43 > 0:32:45is Annalise Ophelian, who is behind the documentary
0:32:45 > 0:32:50Looking for Leia.
0:32:50 > 0:32:56One has seen the film, one hasn't, so we must be very careful. What are
0:32:56 > 0:33:00you hoping for? I know you are going to a screening once you have
0:33:00 > 0:33:05finished here. What will you look out for?I'm excited to see where
0:33:05 > 0:33:10the story goes. That desire to see the next chapter is the sign of good
0:33:10 > 0:33:15storytelling. Star Wars has really good storytelling.Do you think she
0:33:15 > 0:33:20will get that?She is in luck, definitely. I was pleased with the
0:33:20 > 0:33:25latest instalment in the series. It's thrilling, exciting, good
0:33:25 > 0:33:28mainstream blockbuster. Lots of characters jostling for space but
0:33:28 > 0:33:31they are well developed, especially the female characters, as you
0:33:31 > 0:33:35alluded to. I was pleased to see lots more female characters and lots
0:33:35 > 0:33:41more diversity.When you were coming out, were the critics you were with,
0:33:41 > 0:33:46or the audience, pretty unanimous? Was there divergences?There was
0:33:46 > 0:33:50applause at the end, which never happens, which is a good sign. Some
0:33:50 > 0:33:56were strong on it than others but it has been a good, critical response.
0:33:56 > 0:33:59What is it about Star Wars that set you off on your documentary that
0:33:59 > 0:34:04takes people's childhood memories and really can play with fire in
0:34:04 > 0:34:15what it does with them?Well, Looking for Leia is the phenomenon
0:34:15 > 0:34:21of the fandom, especially among girls. I am the class of 1977. I saw
0:34:21 > 0:34:25the original film in the theatre when I was four. Star Wars has
0:34:25 > 0:34:30always been a part of my life. It's one of the central come across
0:34:30 > 0:34:36cultural mythologies, I think we can all read ourselves into this story,
0:34:36 > 0:34:42escapism, and adventure of outsiders fighting their way in. There is
0:34:42 > 0:34:46something for everyone. Every generation has a Star Wars story.
0:34:46 > 0:34:51Because we have 40 years worth of films. It is intersected with so
0:34:51 > 0:34:54many different generations, childhoods, now into adulthood is.
0:34:54 > 0:35:00It's amazing when you think of it as 40 years. -- adulthoods. There have
0:35:00 > 0:35:03been disasters in the middle of that. Is this a love letter to the
0:35:03 > 0:35:09fans?Absolutely. It stays true to the original. The director has done
0:35:09 > 0:35:13a good job of putting his stamp on it but has also remained faithful.
0:35:13 > 0:35:18There is something for fans and people knew to the series, as well.
0:35:18 > 0:35:24-- people who are new.You can see that the merchandise is already out.
0:35:24 > 0:35:28For you it has a strong female message. Does it ever feel like all
0:35:28 > 0:35:35of the branding of it get in the way?Star Wars is so interesting,
0:35:35 > 0:35:39especially now, it is the intersection of cinema and pop
0:35:39 > 0:35:44culture. We are not just audience, we are also consumers. I think Star
0:35:44 > 0:35:49Wars fans are acutely aware of that. In the United States, at least, on
0:35:49 > 0:35:58the 13th of December we are having what the Internet is calling the
0:35:58 > 0:36:07take your merchandise to work today. But then Star Wars created the
0:36:07 > 0:36:10phenomenon of movie merchandising. It only makes sense they would be
0:36:10 > 0:36:16the best doing it.I won't be asking you if you will be taking your stuff
0:36:16 > 0:36:21to work tomorrow. What we haven't touched on yet is Carrie Fisher,
0:36:21 > 0:36:25who, sort of, appears from beyond the grave in this film. Does it do
0:36:25 > 0:36:30her justice?It does. It is poignant to see her. It brings an extra layer
0:36:30 > 0:36:34to the film, knowing what subsequently happened, but it is a
0:36:34 > 0:36:38wonderful tribute and it is attributed to her in the end. She
0:36:38 > 0:36:42has an important part to play in this film, as well.You have seen
0:36:42 > 0:36:46the strength of the female characters right the way through.
0:36:46 > 0:36:52From the class of 77 onwards. As you say. For a lot of women this will be
0:36:52 > 0:36:56a change. In the early days it felt like something of a man's world,
0:36:56 > 0:37:01Star Wars, do you think it is gender free now? Do you think it still
0:37:01 > 0:37:12plays to weigh more man's imagination than a woman's? -- plays
0:37:12 > 0:37:18more to a man's imagination.We are seeing the cultural permission to
0:37:18 > 0:37:23expand on the shift. I'm talking to all of these women who consistently
0:37:23 > 0:37:27tell me their stories about their lifelong fandom but it is only
0:37:27 > 0:37:30recently something which is socially sanctioned and acceptable to show it
0:37:30 > 0:37:36off. There is something exciting about having more and more
0:37:36 > 0:37:39characters to identify with, as well.Great to have you both here.
0:37:39 > 0:37:41Thank you both very much indeed.
0:37:41 > 0:37:43That's almost it for tonight.
0:37:43 > 0:37:45But before we go, a letter written by Charles Dickens in 1865
0:37:45 > 0:37:48was auctioned for over £5,000 at Sotheby's today.
0:37:48 > 0:37:51It details personal trauma after being involved in a rail
0:37:51 > 0:37:56accident while travelling with his mistress - and her mother!
0:37:56 > 0:38:00Dickens escaped and tended to the wounded and the dying.
0:38:00 > 0:38:02He administered water in his top hat and passed
0:38:02 > 0:38:03around his own bottle of brandy.
0:38:03 > 0:38:06But after remembering he had left that month's episode
0:38:06 > 0:38:08of 'Our Mutual Friend' on board, he climbed back up the side
0:38:08 > 0:38:10of the viaduct to rescue his copy.
0:38:10 > 0:38:14Dickens was never the same after the crash.
0:38:14 > 0:38:16The letter is evidence, some say, that Dickens struggled
0:38:16 > 0:38:18with what is now known as post traumatic stress
0:38:18 > 0:38:20disorder in later years.
0:38:20 > 0:38:23To play us out, here is the actor and Dickens biographer Simon Callow
0:38:23 > 0:38:24reading an excerpt from that letter.
0:38:24 > 0:38:29Good night.
0:38:29 > 0:38:33My dear Madame Viardot, I take the opportunity of Chorley's
0:38:33 > 0:38:35coming near you to thank you for your kind and affectionate
0:38:35 > 0:38:43letter received after my escape from that terrible accident.
0:38:43 > 0:38:45The scene was so affecting when I helped in getting out
0:38:45 > 0:38:48the wounded and dead that for a little while afterwards I felt
0:38:48 > 0:38:51shaken by the remembrance of it.
0:38:51 > 0:38:59But I had no personal injury whatsoever.
0:38:59 > 0:39:03My watch, which is curious, was more sensitive physically, than I.
0:39:03 > 0:39:12For it was some few minutes slow for some few weeks afterwards.
0:39:12 > 0:39:15Except that I cannot yet travel on the railway at great speed
0:39:15 > 0:39:17without having a disagreeable impression, against all reason,
0:39:17 > 0:39:19that the carriage is turning on one side.
0:39:19 > 0:39:24I have not the least inconvenience death.
0:39:24 > 0:39:28Will you tell Chorley how I can best send you a book next October?
0:39:28 > 0:39:31It will be Our Mutual Friend, which I'm now finishing with great pains.
0:39:31 > 0:39:34And which I hope will interest you half as much as it interests me.
0:39:34 > 0:39:42Believe me, always affectionately yours, Charles Dickens.