0:00:04 > 0:00:07We're well on the road to delivering a Brexit that'll
0:00:07 > 0:00:10make Britain prosperous, strong and secure.
0:00:10 > 0:00:13We'll get it done and we'll get it done in a very successful
0:00:13 > 0:00:15and very timely way.
0:00:15 > 0:00:18We are on course to deliver on the sovereign vote of the British
0:00:18 > 0:00:22people to leave the European Union, and that's what we'll be doing.
0:00:22 > 0:00:25But to what end?
0:00:25 > 0:00:28Tonight, as the EU says talks can move into the second phase,
0:00:28 > 0:00:32we ask what comes next in the great Brexit fandango.
0:00:32 > 0:00:36Now that Tories have defied Theresa May once,
0:00:36 > 0:00:41tonight she seems to have seen off another rebellion with a concession
0:00:41 > 0:00:47on the date we leave the EU.
0:00:47 > 0:00:49I'll be talking to the arch Brexiteer Jacob Rees-Mogg
0:00:49 > 0:00:51and rebel Ken Clarke.
0:00:51 > 0:00:54And "yesterday is history, tomorrow's a mystery" is part
0:00:54 > 0:00:56of a famous phrase - tonight we look ahead
0:00:56 > 0:00:58to the mystery.
0:00:58 > 0:01:01Will Britain, separate from the EU, embrace a different identity -
0:01:01 > 0:01:05more dynamic, international, a bold new direction?
0:01:05 > 0:01:08Or will we go the other way - separate, smaller,
0:01:08 > 0:01:11and inward looking?
0:01:11 > 0:01:13We've assembled guests who each have a different
0:01:13 > 0:01:14vision of the future.
0:01:14 > 0:01:16Also tonight...
0:01:16 > 0:01:19I called it Geronimo, my friend.
0:01:19 > 0:01:21Compared with the condoms of today, it was like
0:01:21 > 0:01:26wearing the inner tube of a cycle.
0:01:26 > 0:01:30If it's so much easier and better now, why are almost half of under
0:01:30 > 0:01:3325-year-olds not using a condom with a new partner?
0:01:33 > 0:01:36What happened to "no glove, no love?"
0:01:36 > 0:01:37Is it the element of danger?
0:01:37 > 0:01:38Is it carelessness?
0:01:38 > 0:01:39Is it drink?
0:01:39 > 0:01:43We'll be talking to one person who suffered the consequences
0:01:43 > 0:01:47and another who preaches safe sex.
0:01:54 > 0:01:57Good evening.
0:01:57 > 0:02:00At the end of a brutal parliamentary week for the Government over Brexit,
0:02:00 > 0:02:03Theresa May tonight appears to have avoided another rebellion
0:02:03 > 0:02:05by compromising over the Government's attempt to enshrine
0:02:05 > 0:02:09the date of Britain's EU departure in law.
0:02:09 > 0:02:13And in Brussels today, EU leaders - with May absent and back home -
0:02:13 > 0:02:16took less than half an hour to formally agree to move
0:02:16 > 0:02:20onto the second stage of talks.
0:02:20 > 0:02:23But the document "calls on the UK to provide further clarity
0:02:23 > 0:02:26on its position on the framework for the future relationship," and
0:02:26 > 0:02:27there is much uncertainty to come.
0:02:27 > 0:02:30So where do we stand at the end of this week?
0:02:30 > 0:02:32What do our European partners make of us now?
0:02:32 > 0:02:35And what is the road ahead when it comes to this next
0:02:35 > 0:02:36phase of negotiations?
0:02:36 > 0:02:38Our political editor, Nick Watt, reports from Brussels.
0:02:40 > 0:02:44It's a season of peace, a season of goodwill.
0:02:44 > 0:02:49And, apparently, time for a generosity of spirit.
0:02:49 > 0:02:54But in Brussels, there are limits to that Christmas munificence.
0:02:54 > 0:02:57The atmosphere at this summit is completely different to the last
0:02:57 > 0:03:00gathering here in the autumn.
0:03:00 > 0:03:03EU leaders have developed a grudging respect for Theresa May and they've
0:03:03 > 0:03:08decided to offer her a small helping hand.
0:03:08 > 0:03:10So the Prime Minister has been given a breathing space
0:03:10 > 0:03:16to allow her to formulate an agreed Cabinet position on the UK's future
0:03:16 > 0:03:19trading relationship with the EU.
0:03:19 > 0:03:24But on the fundamentals, the EU is not going soft.
0:03:24 > 0:03:27The UK's decision to leave the single market means
0:03:27 > 0:03:30that the EU is saying, your future relationship will be
0:03:30 > 0:03:34that little more distant.
0:03:38 > 0:03:41The hope is that the breather will allow the UK to shape the UK's
0:03:41 > 0:03:45guidelines for the future trade negotiations and the Prime Minister
0:03:45 > 0:03:49does want to press on with those talks once the UK has fully
0:03:49 > 0:03:53established its position.
0:03:53 > 0:03:56A process that will move forward decisively at the Cabinet next week.
0:03:56 > 0:04:00In the New Year, David Davis and Michel Barnier will start
0:04:00 > 0:04:03to negotiate the transition period.
0:04:03 > 0:04:08They will also touch informally on the future trade relationship.
0:04:08 > 0:04:10If the transition talks conclude successfully,
0:04:10 > 0:04:16EU leaders will agree to launch more formal discussions on a future trade
0:04:16 > 0:04:17relationship in March.
0:04:17 > 0:04:20That'll leave seven months before the informal EU deadline for
0:04:20 > 0:04:24the overall withdrawal agreement.
0:04:24 > 0:04:26So it will be quite a journey.
0:04:26 > 0:04:30And Europe's two most powerful leaders put on a show of unity today
0:04:30 > 0:04:37to deliver what they regard as some home truths.
0:04:37 > 0:04:41TRANSLATION:I did not participate in the referendum and I certainly
0:04:41 > 0:04:45would not have voted for Britain leaving the union.
0:04:45 > 0:04:47And so what we have to realise, what we have to implement,
0:04:47 > 0:04:50is what the Brits tell us is their wish.
0:04:50 > 0:04:53To the extent that this is reconcilable with our wishes
0:04:53 > 0:04:56and enables us in the future to have good relations with
0:04:56 > 0:04:58our partner, Britain.
0:04:58 > 0:05:01Britain will decide, they have told us they do not
0:05:01 > 0:05:03want to stay in the single market, simply because complete freedom
0:05:03 > 0:05:07of movement is something they cannot sign on to.
0:05:07 > 0:05:10And we said you cannot stay in the single market
0:05:10 > 0:05:14with just some freedoms, you have to accept all
0:05:14 > 0:05:17of the full freedoms.
0:05:17 > 0:05:19We need to respect not only the sovereignty of the British
0:05:19 > 0:05:22people but also their own rules.
0:05:22 > 0:05:26What I can tell you from our perspective is that the decisions
0:05:26 > 0:05:28will be taken in order to comply with two goals.
0:05:28 > 0:05:32Solidarity with Ireland and then compliance with the single market.
0:05:32 > 0:05:34So we've just had a rare event at European Council.
0:05:34 > 0:05:37A joint press conference between the President of France
0:05:37 > 0:05:39and the German Chancellor.
0:05:39 > 0:05:43On Brexit, they make clear that the next stage will be far more
0:05:43 > 0:05:46challenging and they will apply the rules of the EU.
0:05:46 > 0:05:48But the principal message was about the challenges
0:05:48 > 0:05:50for the remaining members of the European Union
0:05:50 > 0:05:54on defence cooperation and on the future of the euro.
0:05:54 > 0:05:56So the message is pretty clear.
0:05:56 > 0:06:02No privileges for the UK and the EU is moving on.
0:06:02 > 0:06:07And those Brussels habits die hard as the summit spinning kicks off.
0:06:07 > 0:06:10But sadness hangs in the air.
0:06:10 > 0:06:15I think that the overall atmospherics is not a negative one.
0:06:15 > 0:06:19Having said that, one should always keep in mind that this is a divorce.
0:06:19 > 0:06:25And all divorces are not a happy occasion.
0:06:25 > 0:06:28So people are, in a way, satisfied that the divorce
0:06:28 > 0:06:31proceedings can now proceed in an orderly way.
0:06:31 > 0:06:34But still, there are many people who, although they understand
0:06:34 > 0:06:37and respect the decision of the United Kingdom to leave,
0:06:37 > 0:06:41they feel sad about it.
0:06:41 > 0:06:45Europe's capital enters Christmas in sombre mood.
0:06:45 > 0:06:52Brexit is underway but the really hard bargaining lies ahead.
0:06:52 > 0:06:54Nick's in Brussels for us.
0:06:54 > 0:07:01What are you hearing about what happens next?
0:07:01 > 0:07:07Obviously, the next immediate phase is a transition, negotiations on the
0:07:07 > 0:07:12implementation phase, and there are interesting points in Brussels about
0:07:12 > 0:07:17the main concerns of the Leave campaigner is, EU sources said that
0:07:17 > 0:07:20during the transition phase the UK would be absolutely at liberty to
0:07:20 > 0:07:25negotiate free-trade deals with countries around the world although
0:07:25 > 0:07:30they would not be able to implement them until the UK has fully left the
0:07:30 > 0:07:33EU. But if the UK in those negotiations with those free-trade
0:07:33 > 0:07:40deals adopt any God alone approach, but it would diverged in a dramatic
0:07:40 > 0:07:45wave from EU regulations, then that would create problems, problems for
0:07:45 > 0:07:51those countries negotiating with the EU would say, what about relations
0:07:51 > 0:07:57with us? And but also make it difficult, the EU says, for the UK
0:07:57 > 0:08:01to roll over its involvement in the current EU trade deals it is
0:08:01 > 0:08:04involved in and might continue to want to have a relationship with.
0:08:04 > 0:08:07Thanks very much indeed.
0:08:07 > 0:08:10Well, next week, Cabinet discussions about what Brexit "end state"
0:08:10 > 0:08:13the Government should be aiming for are due to kick off.
0:08:13 > 0:08:16We're joined by the Conservative MPs Jacob Rees-Mogg and Ken Clarke.
0:08:16 > 0:08:29Jacob, good evening. Last night, Theresa May won applause in the EU.
0:08:29 > 0:08:36Will you be applauding her tonight? I am always applauding her, she is
0:08:36 > 0:08:40an excellent Prime Minister giving clear leadership of Brexit.Are you
0:08:40 > 0:08:45happy that you are going to be in the EU with all of its structures
0:08:45 > 0:08:52and constraints and its laws, until 2021?As I understand it, that is a
0:08:52 > 0:08:59position set out by the European Union and it is not the law, this is
0:08:59 > 0:09:04the beginning of the negotiations, the EU said its intention is during
0:09:04 > 0:09:08the transition period we will be bound by the single market and the
0:09:08 > 0:09:11European Court but the British government has not accepted that and
0:09:11 > 0:09:16it would be very unwise to.It sounded like Theresa May had
0:09:16 > 0:09:22accepted that, all suggesting this is still up for grabs?I have got
0:09:22 > 0:09:25here the statement issued by the European Union and this was issued
0:09:25 > 0:09:31by the 27 member states, it was not agreed by the British government.It
0:09:31 > 0:09:40would be ridiculous. You are suggesting... Coming away from
0:09:40 > 0:09:48Brussels last night, it was clear that Theresa May, not you, Theresa
0:09:48 > 0:09:53May thinks that in the transition period we are going to have to take
0:09:53 > 0:09:57and not make EU laws and accept the four freedoms and live by the
0:09:57 > 0:10:02European Court was back that would mean staying within the European
0:10:02 > 0:10:06Union for two years which is not the Prime Minister's disposition but the
0:10:06 > 0:10:11Prime Minister has said she is in favour of another mentation, which
0:10:11 > 0:10:16means we leave in March 2019 and the consequences are ever limited and
0:10:16 > 0:10:20the transition, which the EU is offering, that means we are still
0:10:20 > 0:10:24effectively in the EU for the following two years, we cannot
0:10:24 > 0:10:30accept the senior law of the UK is coming from the European Union.When
0:10:30 > 0:10:38we're outside and no longer have any judge on the European court.What
0:10:38 > 0:10:44does that mean? We cannot possibly accept? Argue about to rebel on
0:10:44 > 0:10:48this? Are you going to jump up and down on this? That is not the
0:10:48 > 0:10:54position of the Government.I am not jumping up and down, I'm sitting
0:10:54 > 0:11:00down calmly and discussing this with you. But we cannot be a colony of
0:11:00 > 0:11:06the EU for two years from 2019 until 2021, accepting laws made without
0:11:06 > 0:11:12any say-so of the British people, Parliament or people. That is not
0:11:12 > 0:11:17leaving the European Union, that is being a vassal state and I would be
0:11:17 > 0:11:21surprised if that was government policy.The rebels have got Theresa
0:11:21 > 0:11:27May on the run. They have got to back away the final date. You think
0:11:27 > 0:11:34she is being driven by people like Ken Clarke?Mr Clarke is a very
0:11:34 > 0:11:40influential figure within the Conservative Party and he is
0:11:40 > 0:11:44entitled to rebel, as I was entitled to rebel when David Cameron was a
0:11:44 > 0:11:50Prime Minister. I think some of the criticism made of the strong
0:11:50 > 0:11:54pro-Europeans has been very unfair but busy driving government policy?
0:11:54 > 0:11:59No. It is clear that we will leave, negotiations are moving towards that
0:11:59 > 0:12:05and we will be out of the single market and the Customs Union. Which
0:12:05 > 0:12:09is tremendously important. But he is entitled and right to make his
0:12:09 > 0:12:15long-held and profoundly held views known.Thank you. Ken Clarke,
0:12:15 > 0:12:19turning to you, I will ask you for your interpretation of what happens
0:12:19 > 0:12:24in the transition period but the Daily Mail called you a self
0:12:24 > 0:12:29consumed malcontent?That is the right description? There is a lot of
0:12:29 > 0:12:32silly stuff in the right-wing newspapers and I would have thought
0:12:32 > 0:12:39later that it was obvious that we have not in any way undermined the
0:12:39 > 0:12:44government's negotiating position or strengthened Jeremy Corbyn and we
0:12:44 > 0:12:46certainly have not discussed any amendment to stop bus leaving the
0:12:46 > 0:12:55EU. Nonsense. The arguments are all about what happens in Parliament.
0:12:55 > 0:12:59The fact is, it was always a mistake to think that Parliament was not
0:12:59 > 0:13:04going to have the final say over the details of the hugely important deal
0:13:04 > 0:13:06which will determine our relationships with Europe and the
0:13:06 > 0:13:11rest of the world, politically and economically, for the next
0:13:11 > 0:13:14generation.You say it is clear that we will leave and that is not the
0:13:14 > 0:13:20position you wanted to be in, you voted against Article 50, you are
0:13:20 > 0:13:25the arch rebel in that case. How can the party get through the next few
0:13:25 > 0:13:30months if what you and Jacob Rees-Mogg are saying are
0:13:30 > 0:13:34diametrically opposed?The argument about the transition period must be
0:13:34 > 0:13:38resolved, the speech in Florence was a first-time Theresa May made it
0:13:38 > 0:13:43clear she accepts we cannot just go off the cliff edge in March 2019,
0:13:43 > 0:13:47you will not conceivably finished negotiating the longer term
0:13:47 > 0:13:51relationship by then, for two years, probably more, you will need a
0:13:51 > 0:13:55period in which we carry on with the same relationship we have right now.
0:13:55 > 0:14:00We will no longer be members, we will be attending councils as
0:14:00 > 0:14:11ministers, none
0:14:15 > 0:14:18of that, but we will have free-trade and we will have free trade on the
0:14:18 > 0:14:21present terms. It would be a disaster because we have not
0:14:21 > 0:14:23finished the negotiations in March 2019, if we started raising tariff
0:14:23 > 0:14:25barriers and regulatory barriers and Customs barriers. I doubt we would
0:14:25 > 0:14:27get planning permission for lorry parks in that time! Over two years
0:14:27 > 0:14:31you continue economically, exactly as we are right now, but politically
0:14:31 > 0:14:39you have left the union. That seems quite easy to negotiate.
0:14:39 > 0:14:42So you don't think we will be accepting the four freedoms, you do
0:14:42 > 0:14:50not think we will have two be bound by new laws in that period.Exactly
0:14:50 > 0:14:55the opposite, we will stay on the same terms as now, will be in the
0:14:55 > 0:15:00single market, in the customs union, we will be a bite by the rules of
0:15:00 > 0:15:06the single market, which may change, and we will be subject to the ECJ.
0:15:06 > 0:15:10So internal party squabbling, no fixed position, will that lead to
0:15:10 > 0:15:15more stuff like Anna Soubry's threats to hang Dominic Grieve,
0:15:15 > 0:15:21death threats, have you received any death threats?I have got one, yes,
0:15:21 > 0:15:27but I have had them before. That is all the silly nonsense which a lot
0:15:27 > 0:15:32of silly right-wing newspaper reporting helped build up. Defeat on
0:15:32 > 0:15:38an amendment, which governments often suffer, the defeat was on the
0:15:38 > 0:15:41subject of Parliamentary accountability, and all the stuff
0:15:41 > 0:15:44that spun from it was complete nonsense, the amendment that was
0:15:44 > 0:15:48carried had nothing to do with whether we leave the European Union,
0:15:48 > 0:15:53it had nothing to do with whether Jeremy Corbyn may or may not be
0:15:53 > 0:15:58Prime Minister. It was about the Government being properly and
0:15:58 > 0:16:03sensibly accountable to Parliament. Thank you both very much indeed.
0:16:03 > 0:16:06Remember safe sex?
0:16:06 > 0:16:08Almost half of all under 25s do not use a condom
0:16:08 > 0:16:11when they are having sex with a new partner.
0:16:11 > 0:16:12That shocking figure is from a new survey
0:16:12 > 0:16:14by Public Health England and YouGov.
0:16:14 > 0:16:16It's probably why last year there were more than 141,000
0:16:16 > 0:16:18chlamydia and gonorrhoea diagnoses in people between
0:16:18 > 0:16:21the ages of 16 and 24.
0:16:21 > 0:16:24Both STIs, if not treated, can lead to infertility.
0:16:24 > 0:16:27Such is the problem that the Government
0:16:27 > 0:16:30is about to launch its first sexual health campaign in eight years.
0:16:30 > 0:16:37It's all a lot to take in when most of us thought things had moved on.
0:16:37 > 0:16:41Look what we had to put up with.
0:16:41 > 0:16:44I called it Geronimo, my friend.
0:16:44 > 0:16:46Compared with the condoms of today, it was like
0:16:46 > 0:16:49wearing the inner tube of a cycle.
0:16:49 > 0:16:50It wasn't disposable, like the modern condoms.
0:16:50 > 0:16:59It was designed to be used again and again!
0:16:59 > 0:17:02Noah is a college student, and Ella Harvey
0:17:02 > 0:17:09is the welfare representative at Queen Mary's Students' Union.
0:17:09 > 0:17:12Good evening to both of you. First of all, tell me what happened to
0:17:12 > 0:17:20you.I transmitted chlamydia by having and protected sex with a new
0:17:20 > 0:17:25partner, someone who I had known before, so obviously I trusted them,
0:17:25 > 0:17:30but foolishly, I have learned my lesson now. But I got side effects
0:17:30 > 0:17:34quite quickly, and what I did, which I would recommend to a lot of young
0:17:34 > 0:17:39people, if you see anything out of the ordinary, any side effects, get
0:17:39 > 0:17:43checked out soon, because if it is something, better to nip it in the
0:17:43 > 0:17:47bud.So you knew this partner, somebody you had been friendly with,
0:17:47 > 0:17:54you did not know that she had chlamydia.No.And she didn't know.
0:17:54 > 0:17:59Exactly.So you had sex with her, thinking that whatever protection
0:17:59 > 0:18:03she had meant she wouldn't get pregnant, but you never thought
0:18:03 > 0:18:09about protection for the sake of health.Exactly.Why didn't you use
0:18:09 > 0:18:13a condom?Like a lot of young teens in the moment, it is a heat of the
0:18:13 > 0:18:18moment thing, it is not a top priority, and you do look past some
0:18:18 > 0:18:23important things which may have serious ramifications in the future.
0:18:23 > 0:18:27Did you know what chlamydia was?I had heard of it a little bit at
0:18:27 > 0:18:34school, but it hadn't been hugely, hugely educated to me. But that is
0:18:34 > 0:18:38just personally me, throughout the UK, you know, sexual health
0:18:38 > 0:18:44education is quite on point at the moment.The story, is it fairly
0:18:44 > 0:18:49typical?I think it is very typical of most people between the ages of
0:18:49 > 0:18:5316 and 24, and even older as well. I think that is a really common
0:18:53 > 0:19:00experience to have, and yeah, I mean...I think it is extraordinary,
0:19:00 > 0:19:04because we went through this whole time of talking about safe sex, it
0:19:04 > 0:19:09was related to pregnancy more than anything else, 141,000 cases of
0:19:09 > 0:19:16chlamydia and gonorrhoea in under 25s.A lot of that has to do with
0:19:16 > 0:19:22what you said, about wanting to detect against pregnancy, and with
0:19:22 > 0:19:27things like the implant and the coil, they are brilliant and really
0:19:27 > 0:19:30helpful, but obviously they don't protect against STIs, which is
0:19:30 > 0:19:35something that a lot of people do not consider.Women do not display
0:19:35 > 0:19:40symptoms of chlamydia, and it is interesting, because if it was a
0:19:40 > 0:19:44case that affected men's fertility, I think the attitude may be
0:19:44 > 0:19:48different.I agree, I think the attitude would be quite different,
0:19:48 > 0:19:54and I think a lot of the problems, as I have seen my role as well be
0:19:54 > 0:19:58representative, it is something that myself and my colleagues are trying
0:19:58 > 0:20:06to tackle. If this sort of gender attitudes to sexual health is
0:20:06 > 0:20:10something that can be perceived as a negative attitude, but I don't think
0:20:10 > 0:20:14it necessarily is.Is a that if you think that the partner you have this
0:20:14 > 0:20:21protecting herself from pregnancy, you are prepared to take a risk?
0:20:21 > 0:20:24Definitely not, actually, I have really learned my lesson, but I
0:20:24 > 0:20:31would say to anyone, even if you know the person, never have
0:20:31 > 0:20:36unprotected sex.Isn't the conversation too difficult to have?
0:20:36 > 0:20:42And also, isn't the case that it is just drink and spontaneity?Yeah, I
0:20:42 > 0:20:46think definitely, and another thing, are not prioritising ringing a
0:20:46 > 0:20:51condom when they go out, so personally it is better to have it
0:20:51 > 0:20:55and not needed than needed and not have it.I am surprised that so many
0:20:55 > 0:21:03young women will take the risk of sexual disease.I mean... Yeah, but
0:21:03 > 0:21:10I think that I am surprised as well that I think, when you are educated
0:21:10 > 0:21:15about sexual health at school and that college, I don't think that the
0:21:15 > 0:21:20emphasis is particularly gendered, I don't think there is a massive
0:21:20 > 0:21:25emphasis either way.And is the new campaign going to work?I think it
0:21:25 > 0:21:29would have to be more sex positive, it would have to include the idea
0:21:29 > 0:21:34that women are allowed to have sex and enjoy sex, and with that comes
0:21:34 > 0:21:37responsibility from the male and female perspectives.Thank you both
0:21:37 > 0:21:40very much indeed.
0:21:40 > 0:21:42As we move towards the end of the year and have cleared
0:21:42 > 0:21:45the first Brexit hurdle, can we look ahead to our future
0:21:45 > 0:21:47outside of the EU, beyond 2021?
0:21:47 > 0:21:50What will it mean for the image that we project to the world?
0:21:50 > 0:21:51Is this a chance to reinvent ourselves?
0:21:51 > 0:21:53We did with the Industrial Revolution, Empire,
0:21:53 > 0:22:01and after the Second World War. So what next?
0:22:01 > 0:22:04I'm joined by the writer Sarfraz Manzoor,
0:22:04 > 0:22:07Rebecca Walton is regional director for Europe at the British Council,
0:22:07 > 0:22:12and from Stanford University, the historian Niall Ferguson.
0:22:12 > 0:22:17Good evening, all of you, I would like to bring in first of all with
0:22:17 > 0:22:22you, Niall, what is your version and your vision, I should say, for the
0:22:22 > 0:22:28future of Britain after 2021? Say the next five years.Well, I would
0:22:28 > 0:22:34love to believe what the Brexiteers promise, that by voting to leave the
0:22:34 > 0:22:40European Union, we become global Britain and perhaps part of a vital
0:22:40 > 0:22:48new rejuvenated Anglosphere, but my impression is that the opposite is
0:22:48 > 0:22:53happening, that the divorce process, which may well still be going on
0:22:53 > 0:22:58five years from now is so absorbing British political culture that we
0:22:58 > 0:23:01have become significantly more parochial since the referendum, more
0:23:01 > 0:23:06inward looking. I visit Britain regularly from the United States,
0:23:06 > 0:23:12and I am struck every time I come by just how far Brexit is consuming us
0:23:12 > 0:23:16and causing us to turn inwards, rather than outwards. In that sense,
0:23:16 > 0:23:21their plan is going rather wrong.If you say it is the political class
0:23:21 > 0:23:26that does not have the wherewithal to rise above this and lead us to a
0:23:26 > 0:23:32new beginning, maybe it is other people, cultural figures,
0:23:32 > 0:23:34industrialists, scientists, maybe people have got to say, we all voted
0:23:34 > 0:23:38for this in a referendum, we cannot leave it to politicians to define
0:23:38 > 0:23:45our place in the world.Well, part of the problem, Kirsty, is that I
0:23:45 > 0:23:50think there was an assumption back in 2016 that something was happening
0:23:50 > 0:23:55simultaneously in the United States that would create a new Atlantic
0:23:55 > 0:24:00relationship. That something, of course, was the populist wave that
0:24:00 > 0:24:04produced Donald Trump, and there was a brief moment when he talked about
0:24:04 > 0:24:09Brexit and people were excited about Trump, but in late 27 it is clear
0:24:09 > 0:24:13that British people are about as negative on Donald Trump as people
0:24:13 > 0:24:17on the European continent. It is just one of those signs of how
0:24:17 > 0:24:21European we are that we hate Donald Trump almost as much as the Germans,
0:24:21 > 0:24:25the Dutch under this weeds do! So the problem with the Brexit vision
0:24:25 > 0:24:29of a global Britain is that if global Britain does not include the
0:24:29 > 0:24:33United States and does not include a broader Anglosphere, then what
0:24:33 > 0:24:43exactly is it?I will ask the British Council, you are charged
0:24:43 > 0:24:47with forging new international relations, creating new bonds, maybe
0:24:47 > 0:24:51it will not be towards America, but you see this as an opportunity to
0:24:51 > 0:24:58reinvent?I think re-find as well as reinvent, because we have been a
0:24:58 > 0:25:01global nation, and Eddie are suddenly emerging after the
0:25:01 > 0:25:08referendum seems bizarre. -- the idea. We were a global nation for
0:25:08 > 0:25:12400 years, 500 years, if nothing else. So I think re-finding that
0:25:12 > 0:25:16connection with other parts of the world, yes, very important, if we
0:25:16 > 0:25:20are going to make this reinvention, as you call it, that is where we
0:25:20 > 0:25:24will turn.We may have to reinvent the relationship with the rest of
0:25:24 > 0:25:29the European Union.Indeed we do, but there is a lot of tolerance for
0:25:29 > 0:25:34that. Picking up on what Niall said, this consuming conversation about
0:25:34 > 0:25:41the divorce is not consuming most Europeans, it is the bureaucrats,
0:25:41 > 0:25:47but the people of Europe have moved on already - they have their own
0:25:47 > 0:25:51problems, their own identity issues, migration issues, industrialists
0:25:51 > 0:25:55use, developing their own economies. They are all doing that, and they
0:25:55 > 0:26:00see us was a friend, so the divorce is not such a huge gap.Sarfraz
0:26:00 > 0:26:07Manzoor, we are in a situation now where the country is divided, by
0:26:07 > 0:26:12nations, locally, city by city, urban and rural - what is the
0:26:12 > 0:26:17mechanism by which we come together and become very proactive in forging
0:26:17 > 0:26:23and making the country look physically different?You have got
0:26:23 > 0:26:2690 seconds for this?! It seems like there is a disconnect between the
0:26:26 > 0:26:31first part of the programme, the technicalities, the discussions et
0:26:31 > 0:26:36cetera, and the reason why people voted for Brexit. For me, it was an
0:26:36 > 0:26:40emotional moment, a protest vote that has been turned into a viable
0:26:40 > 0:26:44policy, so the question about division, for me, you have got
0:26:44 > 0:26:52people who are yearning for a simple past, a vision of Britain which has
0:26:52 > 0:26:57fewer immigrants.Monocultural? Where they feel more comfortable,
0:26:57 > 0:27:01perhaps because they feel they have not economically benefited, perhaps
0:27:01 > 0:27:05because they do not feel politicians have spoken for them, and then the
0:27:05 > 0:27:08Remainers be a more comfortable with that. This vision of Britain, how do
0:27:08 > 0:27:13you do something which does not just return to old ideas about Britain
0:27:13 > 0:27:17alone which do not really include the Empire in the same way, do not
0:27:17 > 0:27:25include the new arrivals? It is about trying to create a new version
0:27:25 > 0:27:28of Britain.And who does that?A lot of things will not really change, it
0:27:28 > 0:27:32seems to me, people are still wanting to go to universities across
0:27:32 > 0:27:37Europe, people from Europe will want to come here, the arts things will
0:27:37 > 0:27:41carry on, so for me it is symbolic, do we want England or Britain to
0:27:41 > 0:27:45feel small or feel like we are connected? Personally, the wider the
0:27:45 > 0:27:53label, the more comfortable I peel. Niall Ferguson, where does our
0:27:53 > 0:27:57economic strength like, high-end engineering, medical science, the
0:27:57 > 0:28:03creative industries? How do we make a new mark on the world?Well, the
0:28:03 > 0:28:08United Kingdom is sold itself, you may remember, as cool Britannia back
0:28:08 > 0:28:11in the 1990s, and I think part of the charm of Brexit for the rest of
0:28:11 > 0:28:14the world is that we are going to market ourselves as square
0:28:14 > 0:28:22Britannia, people realise how appealing Jacob Rees-Mogg is as a
0:28:22 > 0:28:29character around the world Dr please, he is charming but...A
0:28:29 > 0:28:34wonderfully stereotypical vigour. Charming as that is, we have to say
0:28:34 > 0:28:40that the whole point about this is to FOI we up to have international
0:28:40 > 0:28:48trade, new relationships, how do we do that? -- to free us up.The world
0:28:48 > 0:28:52is complex, having a square image will not keep us in the mainstream
0:28:52 > 0:28:55of a fast-moving world, we need to join in with the tone that
0:28:55 > 0:29:01recognises strengths without boasting, and I think that we take
0:29:01 > 0:29:05very quickly in Britain from a position of great strength in many
0:29:05 > 0:29:11areas, but we then tend to use it in some way that is not quite as
0:29:11 > 0:29:16alluring as you want to bring people to you.Just speaking up about the
0:29:16 > 0:29:21charming Jacob Rees-Mogg, one of the problems is, I don't think there are
0:29:21 > 0:29:24people, particularly in politics, speaking in an optimistic vision of
0:29:24 > 0:29:32what it means to be British.Why do we leave that to the politicians?
0:29:32 > 0:29:36Maybe those are things that happen organically through culture,
0:29:36 > 0:29:41festivals, films, books, maybe the things that people consume and
0:29:41 > 0:29:47experience, rather than top-down leaders.Do you think, as the
0:29:47 > 0:29:53British Council, that we can make much more of our relationships in
0:29:53 > 0:29:58the Commonwealth, and that perhaps Canada is doing better than us?The
0:29:58 > 0:30:01Commonwealth is there, Kirsty, but we have not been paying enough
0:30:01 > 0:30:07attention to it to look like a member that is absolutely part of
0:30:07 > 0:30:11the family. There is a conundrum in that, the Australians and Canadians
0:30:11 > 0:30:15have taken leadership of the Commonwealth, and we would need to
0:30:15 > 0:30:20ask very nicely if we can come back in, in a way, despite the leadership
0:30:20 > 0:30:25with the Queen.What is our best chance, Niall Ferguson, in the next
0:30:25 > 0:30:32decade, for greatness, to put the great back in Britain?Well, I don't
0:30:32 > 0:30:36think the rest of the world expects greatness from post-Brexit Britain.
0:30:36 > 0:30:42I think light relief, comedy, those are the things that we have excelled
0:30:42 > 0:30:46at, rather like popular music. The paradox of Britain is that we have
0:30:46 > 0:30:51got steadily worse at doing things like trade agreements, complex
0:30:51 > 0:30:54negotiations, ultimately Brexit happened because a complex
0:30:54 > 0:30:58negotiation with the European Union about Britain's special status went
0:30:58 > 0:31:02horribly wrong for David Cameron, and I think the negotiations of the
0:31:02 > 0:31:07divorce are also going pretty wrong, because David Davis is not a match
0:31:07 > 0:31:11for Michel Barnier. Luckily, we are still very good at entertainment and
0:31:11 > 0:31:21pretty good at most forms of culture, and that is why people will
0:31:21 > 0:31:23continue to come to London, expecting to be entertained and
0:31:23 > 0:31:25amused by our politicians.And they will be coming to lots of other
0:31:25 > 0:31:26cities throughout the United Kingdom!
0:31:26 > 0:31:29That's all for this evening, but we leave you with
0:31:29 > 0:31:31the finalists of the 2017 Comedy Wildlife Photography Awards.
0:31:31 > 0:31:32Pretty self-explanatory, really. Good night.
0:31:32 > 0:31:36MUSIC: "Close To You" by Jacob Collier
0:31:54 > 0:31:59# Why do birds suddenly appear?
0:32:01 > 0:32:07# Every time you are near
0:32:08 > 0:32:12# Just like me