0:00:04 > 0:00:09Is this the man to stop the rot in South Africa?
0:00:09 > 0:00:14Cyril Ramaphosa is elected the new president of the ANC.
0:00:14 > 0:00:20He's not president of the country yet, but getting to lead the country
0:00:20 > 0:00:23is now the least of his problems, because upon him rest
0:00:23 > 0:00:28the hopes of a nation, that he can outlaw corruption.
0:00:28 > 0:00:30We'll hear from the ANC, and from Nelson
0:00:30 > 0:00:33Mandela's former personal aide.
0:00:33 > 0:00:38We'll look back at Jeremy Corbyn's rollercoaster year...
0:00:38 > 0:00:44And ask the Shadow Home Secretary where Labour may go in 2018.
0:00:44 > 0:00:47The people complaining we're not far enough ahead are the same people
0:00:47 > 0:00:49who said the Labour Party would be annihilated under
0:00:49 > 0:00:52the current leadership.
0:00:52 > 0:00:54There's a new Bishop of London - the Church's third
0:00:54 > 0:00:56most senior figure - and she's Sarah Mullally.
0:00:56 > 0:01:00There's not been much of a fuss.
0:01:00 > 0:01:02Does it mean the Church of England has moved
0:01:02 > 0:01:05on from its arguments about women?
0:01:05 > 0:01:09And Twitter launched a crackdown on far right accounts today.
0:01:09 > 0:01:14After a tumultuous year for some in the Muslim community,
0:01:14 > 0:01:16we'll ask former Conservative chair Baroness Warsi whether enough
0:01:16 > 0:01:22is being done to prevent Islamophobic abuse.
0:01:27 > 0:01:28Hello.
0:01:28 > 0:01:30South Africa does not have a new president tonight,
0:01:30 > 0:01:33not even a new president elect, but it does have a new
0:01:33 > 0:01:34president-expect.
0:01:34 > 0:01:37He is the newly declared leader of the ANC, Cyril Ramaphosa.
0:01:37 > 0:01:39In principle, the incumbent President Zuma stays in office
0:01:39 > 0:01:45until elections in 2019 and then at that point, Mr Rampahosa probably
0:01:45 > 0:01:51wins the presidency, as the ANC candidate generally does.
0:01:51 > 0:01:53But Zuma could be dumped by his party sooner than that.
0:01:53 > 0:01:57And so on Mr Ramaphosa's shoulders rest the hopes of those who think
0:01:57 > 0:01:58South Africa needs a clean-up.
0:01:58 > 0:02:01It has slipped into bad habits under Zuma, who famously spent state money
0:02:01 > 0:02:04on a private swimming pool, for example, and then justified it
0:02:04 > 0:02:08as part of the fire safety system.
0:02:08 > 0:02:11Mr Ramaphosa can afford his own pool - he's a very rich man who's had
0:02:11 > 0:02:14a successful business career, and has now made the fight
0:02:14 > 0:02:15against corruption a key platform.
0:02:15 > 0:02:19He was also a stalwart of the anti-apartheid struggle.
0:02:19 > 0:02:21So is it likely he can make a big difference?
0:02:21 > 0:02:24Here's Mark Urban.
0:02:29 > 0:02:37Comrades Nkosazana Dlamini-Zuma received two to 61 votes and
0:02:37 > 0:02:45comrades civil manner poster received 2444 votes.With its
0:02:45 > 0:02:50comrades, the ANC's proceedings, for example announcing the leadership
0:02:50 > 0:02:54results are a reminder of its revolutionary heritage. It is a
0:02:54 > 0:02:59powerful movement with millions of members and a century of history and
0:02:59 > 0:03:04it guards its power jealously.It looks like a new bus but it is an
0:03:04 > 0:03:08old bus with a new driver and what is wrong with South Africa is not
0:03:08 > 0:03:12just two individuals but a systemic process that has been endorsed by
0:03:12 > 0:03:16the ANC and we need a complete change from that. They might go for
0:03:16 > 0:03:20an image makeover but in the long term it will become clear that the
0:03:20 > 0:03:26system of corruption as captain the ANC also Soweto born Ramaphosa was a
0:03:26 > 0:03:31trade unionist and leading member of the ANC in the 90s but after losing
0:03:31 > 0:03:34up to a presidential rival, he turned his back on the party 20
0:03:34 > 0:03:39years ago.He set about amassing a fortune in business. Tempting him
0:03:39 > 0:03:46back it a coup for an ANC tainted in recent years by corruption.The ace
0:03:46 > 0:03:49and yet has been very good at maintaining what it calls a
0:03:49 > 0:03:55Broadchurch -- the ANC. You have someone like Cyril Ramaphosa who is
0:03:55 > 0:03:59both a trade unionist but also a very successful entrepreneur who is
0:03:59 > 0:04:04supported by the labour movement and supported by the Communist Party and
0:04:04 > 0:04:09yet also crafted the seminal piece of South African policy in the
0:04:09 > 0:04:14National development plan.But the ANC phenomenon is part of a bigger
0:04:14 > 0:04:21African liberation story. Angola was one of the last African countries to
0:04:21 > 0:04:23see off its colonisers. Its new rule is celebrated in a distinctly
0:04:23 > 0:04:30commonest manner.Building up popular enthusiasm for the aims of
0:04:30 > 0:04:34the MPLa, that is the purpose of the meeting and the movement is
0:04:34 > 0:04:39determined to control the people at the date of independence draws near.
0:04:39 > 0:04:44This pattern of a party machine being handed power and declining
0:04:44 > 0:04:48thereafter to relinquish it has been replicated across the continent. The
0:04:48 > 0:04:53Marxist influence in many of the African liberation movement is clear
0:04:53 > 0:04:58in the flags of the independent nations. From Zimbabwe's red start
0:04:58 > 0:05:05to Angola's star, cog and the city mirroring the Soviet hammer and
0:05:05 > 0:05:11sickle, one theme, as with Mozambique's AK-47 is to emphasise
0:05:11 > 0:05:14the union between those who won independence and those who will
0:05:14 > 0:05:20build the new nation. The ANC flag has that as well with its spear and
0:05:20 > 0:05:25wheel but increasingly the liberators and the liberated have
0:05:25 > 0:05:30felt their interests diverged.It's not too dissimilar to that of any
0:05:30 > 0:05:35national liberation movement. Most national liberation movements like
0:05:35 > 0:05:38we have seen with Zanu-PF in Zimbabwe, they all begin with this
0:05:38 > 0:05:42notion that they must capture the leaders of power. What happened with
0:05:42 > 0:05:49the ANC is they deployed a programme where they send loyal people to
0:05:49 > 0:05:54governing positions without the necessary competence at times and
0:05:54 > 0:05:57that corruption seeds in it becomes part of the organisation and it Ms
0:05:57 > 0:05:58manages the economy.
0:06:03 > 0:06:10The Mugabe vision for Zimbabwe was one of a 1-party state where Zanu-PF
0:06:10 > 0:06:15would be the forum for political debate. And as the recent coronation
0:06:15 > 0:06:22of Emmerson Mnangagwa demonstrated, the Zanu-PF machine intends to
0:06:22 > 0:06:29define the post-Mugabe future. In South Africa, the ANC has at least
0:06:29 > 0:06:33been shrewd enough to pick a man from outside the party machine in an
0:06:33 > 0:06:39attempt to refresh its brand after the Zuma years.What we will seek
0:06:39 > 0:06:43right across southern Africa in the next ten years is that change you
0:06:43 > 0:06:49are alluding to about bringing in younger people to power and the
0:06:49 > 0:06:53continued decline of national liberation movement who have been
0:06:53 > 0:06:56unable to deliver on the growing expectations of younger populations.
0:06:56 > 0:07:04Manner poster may be able to revive the ANC and reinvent the liberation
0:07:04 > 0:07:08movement -- Ramaphosa. But equally the party could consume him. The key
0:07:08 > 0:07:10test will come in the 2019 elections.
0:07:10 > 0:07:12So what next for South Africa?
0:07:12 > 0:07:14Does the ANC's legacy as a liberation movement mean
0:07:14 > 0:07:17it can never be dislodged, and if so, can it
0:07:17 > 0:07:21reform from within?
0:07:21 > 0:07:23I'm joined by Jabu Sibecko, chairman of the ANC's
0:07:23 > 0:07:26branch here in the UK, and by Gillian Slovo.
0:07:26 > 0:07:29Gillian is a South African writer whose parents were some
0:07:29 > 0:07:32of the most prominent campaigners against apartheid.
0:07:32 > 0:07:34Her mother, Ruth First, was assassinated by the South
0:07:34 > 0:07:39African security forces in 1982.
0:07:39 > 0:07:42Her father, Joe Slovo, led the ANC's armed wing and went
0:07:42 > 0:07:46on to become a minister in Nelson Mandela's government.
0:07:46 > 0:07:48Also with us from Pretoria is Zelda La Grange, who served
0:07:48 > 0:07:53as personal aide to Mr Mandela for almost 20 years.
0:07:53 > 0:08:01Good evening to you. Does your party need saving and is Ramaphosa the man
0:08:01 > 0:08:14to do it?Ramaphosa, yes, he's the right man for the job. I think he
0:08:14 > 0:08:27has over the years demonstrated, his capacity to lead the party. And as a
0:08:27 > 0:08:35former unionist there was a time when he also was actually involved
0:08:35 > 0:08:42in some of the negotiations, the transitional arrangement between
0:08:42 > 0:08:50apartheid. He has been there between the organisation.And does the party
0:08:50 > 0:08:58need saving? He is obviously a big figure and a grown-up so does the
0:08:58 > 0:09:02party need an escape from someone who has been running rather badly?
0:09:02 > 0:09:09What I can say is that he has the potential to resuscitate some of the
0:09:09 > 0:09:19elements within the organisation that have not actually... He's going
0:09:19 > 0:09:25to reignite the spirit that should exist within the ANC. I don't want
0:09:25 > 0:09:30to say he is actually going to save the party...You don't want admit it
0:09:30 > 0:09:37has gone off the rails! What do you think? Is he the man and had it gone
0:09:37 > 0:09:42off the rails?If anybody is the man then he is and yes, it has gone off
0:09:42 > 0:09:46the rails. There is too much corruption inside government in
0:09:46 > 0:09:50South Africa. Zuma has presided over corruption from the top to the
0:09:50 > 0:09:56bottom and hopefully Cyril Ramaphosa if the man who can change it and I
0:09:56 > 0:09:59think the vote for him shows that people in the ANC want that change
0:09:59 > 0:10:06to come forth that there were some other positions that did... He is
0:10:06 > 0:10:12going to have much more difficult job because his deputy resident is a
0:10:12 > 0:10:17Zuma can edit and his general secretary is a Zuma candidate, both
0:10:17 > 0:10:22implicated in corruption themselves in the various places they have
0:10:22 > 0:10:27been. He will have a hard job to both govern the country and turned
0:10:27 > 0:10:31the ANC around.Your party is pretty divided it seems today between the
0:10:31 > 0:10:39Zuma side and the Ramaphosa side. There are divisions, yes, within the
0:10:39 > 0:10:45party. That is the challenge that he will be facing.You feel they are
0:10:45 > 0:10:52behind him enough to do it?Behind him sufficiently to ensure that the
0:10:52 > 0:11:00unity prevails within the organisation.Zelda, you knew him
0:11:00 > 0:11:07from his days as general secretary under President Mandela. What was he
0:11:07 > 0:11:16like, give us a sense of the man?He has the ability to instinctively
0:11:16 > 0:11:22reinforce the values and the morals and the pride within the ANC that we
0:11:22 > 0:11:27spoke earlier. If there is one man that can do it because of instincts
0:11:27 > 0:11:34and his success at the negotiations, one of the authors of our
0:11:34 > 0:11:37Constitution which is considered one of the most progressive in the
0:11:37 > 0:11:45world, he has the credentials to turn this into a success job.
0:11:45 > 0:11:51Mandela did not give him the job of vice president, he made Thabo Mbeki
0:11:51 > 0:11:57error apparent and people asked what he was going -- what was going on.
0:11:57 > 0:12:05He was hand-picked actually by Mr Mandela to deputise for him but the
0:12:05 > 0:12:09ANC is an organisation full of culture and the collective is very
0:12:09 > 0:12:16important. At a meeting Mr Mandela was convinced by people, by the
0:12:16 > 0:12:20elders in the organisation and by his colleagues, that Thabo Becky was
0:12:20 > 0:12:24better positioned at that point to take over the deputy presidency --
0:12:24 > 0:12:30Thabo Mbeki.No body can speak for the late Nelson Mandela but what do
0:12:30 > 0:12:36you think he would think as he looks at what Zuma has done, effectively
0:12:36 > 0:12:41to trash the reputation of the party with the public?I think he would
0:12:41 > 0:12:48have been disappointed, not only in one person or one thing but overall,
0:12:48 > 0:12:56the level of corruption. As South Africans we have almost managed to
0:12:56 > 0:12:59institutionalised corruption, not only in the government and the ANC
0:12:59 > 0:13:02but in the private sector and he would have been disappointed because
0:13:02 > 0:13:07South Africans need to take responsibility for who we are as a
0:13:07 > 0:13:12nation. Although the example he set from the top, we need to be active
0:13:12 > 0:13:22citizens and help to rebuild the country.Thank you. Does Ramaphosa,
0:13:22 > 0:13:26firstly how quickly it should they make this transfer of power? Should
0:13:26 > 0:13:32they just boot out Zuma?I think it would be good myself.Does that need
0:13:32 > 0:13:37to be a reckoning, does he need to face charges?There are charges
0:13:37 > 0:13:44pending against him and some have thought about why he wanted
0:13:44 > 0:13:48Nkosazana Dlamini-Zuma to take over because the suggestion was that she
0:13:48 > 0:13:53would not press the charges as hard but I think Cyril Ramaphosa is going
0:13:53 > 0:13:57to have his job cut out for him to rule the country. He may not go for
0:13:57 > 0:14:01that first but the good thing about South Africa is that the courts
0:14:01 > 0:14:04work, become seducing works and the courts work and those charges will
0:14:04 > 0:14:10go through the courts. -- with the Constitution works.The problem is
0:14:10 > 0:14:14that there is a monopoly party that went every election. Would you
0:14:14 > 0:14:21agreed as a member that it would be healthier for your democracy to have
0:14:21 > 0:14:27a 2-party system with other parties that could win?I think the gun
0:14:27 > 0:14:34seducing of South Africa provides for it, -- the Constitution of South
0:14:34 > 0:14:38Africa. It is the will of the people to elect whoever they wish in
0:14:38 > 0:14:47government but at this stage I think that the ANC, from its history as a
0:14:47 > 0:14:57liberation movement, it has instilled sufficient confidence in
0:14:57 > 0:15:01South Africans to continue to believe that the ANC will bring
0:15:01 > 0:15:07about the necessary change that is needed in the country.
0:15:07 > 0:15:14I don't think it is the ANC's. There is a stronger opposition. If they
0:15:14 > 0:15:18wanted a stronger opposition, they could vote for them.Would you vote
0:15:18 > 0:15:25for them?I would vote for them now but I would have hesitated to vote
0:15:25 > 0:15:29for a Jacob Zuma ANC but I wouldn't have voted for any of the opposition
0:15:29 > 0:15:33either.Thank you very much.
0:15:33 > 0:15:362017 was the weirdest year, ooh, since at least 2016.
0:15:36 > 0:15:38And no more so than for Jeremy Corbyn.
0:15:38 > 0:15:41He started the election campaign treated as something of a joke.
0:15:41 > 0:15:44He had no chance, it was said, and was more proof that Britain
0:15:44 > 0:15:47would never sign up to that kind of lefty programme.
0:15:47 > 0:15:47And then something changed.
0:15:47 > 0:15:50The pundits said that Theresa May bungled her manifesto,
0:15:50 > 0:15:52and her social care package went down badly.
0:15:52 > 0:15:55But when you look at how the polls changed, it was not so much that
0:15:55 > 0:15:57old people deserted her at all.
0:15:57 > 0:15:59What changed was that young people swarmed to Labour
0:15:59 > 0:16:00and Jeremy Corbyn in particular.
0:16:00 > 0:16:02So is a left wing platform a winner now?
0:16:02 > 0:16:06Well, as the year ends, there are two views -
0:16:06 > 0:16:08that he is now a credible prime minister in waiting,
0:16:08 > 0:16:11who will probably win the next election, or that he should be doing
0:16:11 > 0:16:17much better given the way the Tories are doing.
0:16:17 > 0:16:20Let's have a look back now at his year.
0:16:20 > 0:16:29MUSIC: 'Seven Nation Army' by The White Stripes.
0:16:30 > 0:16:32So how did he go from this...
0:16:32 > 0:16:33To this?
0:16:33 > 0:16:36What happened with the general election, we had an opportunity
0:16:36 > 0:16:45for 600,000 people to get involved and use their voice to persuade
0:16:45 > 0:16:46people and have genuine conversations about politics
0:16:46 > 0:16:48and that's what people did.
0:16:48 > 0:16:50It wasn't just a fiction of the mainstream media
0:16:50 > 0:16:51that Corbyn was a loser.
0:16:51 > 0:16:54When it came to the local elections in England, he was a loser.
0:16:54 > 0:16:55A very bad night for Labour.
0:16:55 > 0:16:57Thank you so much for coming.
0:16:57 > 0:17:01His party was unsure about him, too.
0:17:01 > 0:17:05No one can ignore the issue of leadership.
0:17:05 > 0:17:09I mean, it would be fatuous to do so and I don't think anyone, I hope,
0:17:09 > 0:17:17is suggesting that it wasn't an issue on the doorstep.
0:17:17 > 0:17:21All in all, this could have been his annus horribilis.
0:17:21 > 0:17:23But in the election campaign, something shifted.
0:17:23 > 0:17:26One sign was that he was out and about in all the wrong places,
0:17:26 > 0:17:28seats that were never meant to go Labour.
0:17:28 > 0:17:31Did he not understand that's a waste of his time?
0:17:31 > 0:17:36Well, in the end, many of them did swing his way.
0:17:36 > 0:17:39I hereby declare that Emma Dent Coad has been duly elected
0:17:39 > 0:17:49as the Member of Parliament for the Kensington constituency.
0:17:55 > 0:17:57In 2017, Jeremy Corbyn basically rewrote the rules,
0:17:57 > 0:17:59refreshing the voters that other politicians couldn't reach.
0:17:59 > 0:18:02He would not welcome the comparison but in a way you could say
0:18:02 > 0:18:04he pulled off a Trump, an authentic political
0:18:04 > 0:18:06outsider promising change, never hides his beliefs,
0:18:06 > 0:18:12always says what he thinks, performs well against an establishment
0:18:12 > 0:18:16insider whose message often doesn't come across as quite genuine.
0:18:16 > 0:18:19But Mr Corbyn did something else in the election.
0:18:19 > 0:18:22He made some generous, almost populist policy promises that
0:18:22 > 0:18:26appealed to key groups.
0:18:26 > 0:18:28Labour will end the cuts in the National Health Service.
0:18:28 > 0:18:32Labour will scrap tuition fees.
0:18:32 > 0:18:34Labour will take our railways back into public ownership
0:18:34 > 0:18:38and put passengers first.
0:18:38 > 0:18:42Austerity-fatigued voters seemed happy to be told the good news,
0:18:42 > 0:18:44even if mainstream experts thought it might be more
0:18:44 > 0:18:47difficult than presented.
0:18:47 > 0:18:50Corbyn's team are presenting some things as simple which almost
0:18:50 > 0:18:53certainly are not going to be.
0:18:53 > 0:18:55One of them is a great increase in public spending
0:18:55 > 0:18:57which they want to do.
0:18:57 > 0:19:00Now, that is very simple and might indeed fairly simply lead
0:19:00 > 0:19:03to an improvement in some public services and some areas
0:19:03 > 0:19:06of health or education, if the fact that national debt
0:19:06 > 0:19:10would go up as a result did not bring its own complications, too.
0:19:10 > 0:19:13So how do we explain Mr Corbyn's appeal?
0:19:13 > 0:19:15Is it the policies?
0:19:15 > 0:19:16The direction?
0:19:16 > 0:19:19Or the man?
0:19:19 > 0:19:22I think Jeremy's great.
0:19:22 > 0:19:25He's kind of a nice, honest human who talks to people
0:19:25 > 0:19:29at a genuine level and understands where people are coming from
0:19:29 > 0:19:32but it's not about Jeremy Corbyn.
0:19:32 > 0:19:34It is about the politics and policies.
0:19:34 > 0:19:38I'll be back very soon.
0:19:38 > 0:19:41We can find evidence on one question - whether it's possible to argue
0:19:41 > 0:19:48that Britain has taken a decisive move to the left.
0:19:48 > 0:19:52Surveys just after the 2015 and 2017 elections asked people to place
0:19:52 > 0:19:55themselves on a ten-point scale where left is zero and right is ten.
0:19:55 > 0:20:00The average position only moved from 5.1 to 5.0.
0:20:00 > 0:20:05We're hardly all Corbynites now.
0:20:05 > 0:20:08I don't think that the centre has shifted.
0:20:08 > 0:20:11I think the electorate itself has changed shape a little bit
0:20:11 > 0:20:14and of course one of the shocks from the election was that
0:20:14 > 0:20:17so many more young people, young people who hadn't previously
0:20:17 > 0:20:19bothered to vote, turned out to vote.
0:20:19 > 0:20:22Well, for 2018, the big question in British politics
0:20:22 > 0:20:26is whether the Corbyn surge can continue.
0:20:26 > 0:20:29As he gathers more support, does he look more credible and thus
0:20:29 > 0:20:32gather more support?
0:20:32 > 0:20:36Or has he reached the limits of his appeal?
0:20:36 > 0:20:40It's really hard to see how either party can win an overall majority
0:20:40 > 0:20:42against this backdrop because I think you've got half
0:20:42 > 0:20:44the electorate basically rejecting Labour and what it stands
0:20:44 > 0:20:47for and the other half rejecting the Tories.
0:20:47 > 0:20:50And so it's Marmite politics at the moment?
0:20:50 > 0:20:54It's completely Marmite politics, yes.
0:20:54 > 0:20:58Of course Mr Corbyn has surprised us this year.
0:20:58 > 0:21:04We've seen him perform in ways that mainstream pundits did not expect.
0:21:04 > 0:21:08Is 2018 the year that the next great once unthinkable political
0:21:08 > 0:21:10earthquake occurs that sees a Prime Minister Corbyn
0:21:10 > 0:21:12enter Number 10?
0:21:12 > 0:21:13Showtime.
0:21:13 > 0:21:19Let's go.
0:21:19 > 0:21:22Well, I met up earlier to discuss this with
0:21:22 > 0:21:26the Shadow Home Secretary, Diane Abbott.
0:21:26 > 0:21:29I asked her what critics of Jeremy Corbyn, who'd written him
0:21:29 > 0:21:38off earlier in the year, had got wrong about him.
0:21:38 > 0:21:40The thing that commentators got wrong
0:21:40 > 0:21:41is they existed in a bubble.
0:21:41 > 0:21:43They were talking to other MPs.
0:21:43 > 0:21:45They weren't talking to real people.
0:21:45 > 0:21:48And when the election was actually launched for the first time,
0:21:48 > 0:21:56because of electoral coverage rules, Jeremy got much more
0:21:56 > 0:21:59balanced coverage in terms of the time, for the first time,
0:21:59 > 0:22:03they actually heard about our manifesto which proved
0:22:03 > 0:22:08to be very popular but the other important thing was this,
0:22:08 > 0:22:11we were really effective in using social media to get around
0:22:11 > 0:22:13what the mainstream media was saying.
0:22:13 > 0:22:15And the stats show that people who get most of their political
0:22:15 > 0:22:18information from online and social media, mostly young people, in fact,
0:22:18 > 0:22:20were far more likely to vote for us.
0:22:20 > 0:22:25What you think about authenticity in politics?
0:22:25 > 0:22:28Some people have said there was something about Corbyn,
0:22:28 > 0:22:30he looked more comfortable in his own skin than Theresa May
0:22:30 > 0:22:34did in the election?
0:22:34 > 0:22:38Is it fair to say that the old techniques of communication
0:22:38 > 0:22:41have proved to be a bit futile and, basically, you have to be yourself.
0:22:41 > 0:22:44Maybe Donald Trump proves the same point, I don't know?
0:22:44 > 0:22:48Well, it would be ludicrous to compare Jeremy with Donald Trump.
0:22:48 > 0:22:52Donald Trump appeals to the direct opposite group of people
0:22:52 > 0:22:55and Donald Trump appeals to fear and Jeremy appeals to hope.
0:22:55 > 0:23:04But it is true that Jeremy is comfortable in himself,
0:23:04 > 0:23:07he knows what he believes - he didn't have to read
0:23:07 > 0:23:10a an opinion poll to tell him what he believes.
0:23:10 > 0:23:12That's why he won the leadership of the Labour Party,
0:23:12 > 0:23:15not once but twice, and that's why he did so well in
0:23:15 > 0:23:16the general election.
0:23:16 > 0:23:18Interesting absence of evidence, though, that Britain has
0:23:18 > 0:23:21actually swung to the left.
0:23:21 > 0:23:24Would you accept that it's not the case that Jeremy Corbyn has,
0:23:24 > 0:23:27if you like, made a left-leaning argument to the British
0:23:27 > 0:23:30people and persuaded them that is the way to go?
0:23:30 > 0:23:35Truth to tell, our manifesto was not some extremist left manifesto.
0:23:35 > 0:23:41Were we a Scandinavian country, our manifesto would be seen
0:23:41 > 0:23:48as a quite middle-of-the-road social Democratic manifesto.
0:23:48 > 0:23:50What is true, though, is we've altered the debate.
0:23:50 > 0:23:52You've got Tory MPs talking about austerity,
0:23:52 > 0:23:55complaining about austerity, that never happened before.
0:23:55 > 0:23:58You've got the Tory party and looking at issues of student
0:23:58 > 0:24:00finance.
0:24:00 > 0:24:03On a range of issues we have generally altered the debate.
0:24:03 > 0:24:11Many people are saying that it's bizarre the official opposition
0:24:11 > 0:24:16is in most polls about one or two points ahead of this government.
0:24:16 > 0:24:26Are you thinking looking at where labour is now,
0:24:30 > 0:24:34this is great, were ahead in the polls or are you thinking, yeah,
0:24:34 > 0:24:36actually, it ought to be 15 or 20 points ahead,
0:24:36 > 0:24:39given what the government's doing.
0:24:39 > 0:24:43People complaining that we're not far enough ahead are the same people
0:24:43 > 0:24:50who are saying that the Labour Party would be annihilated under
0:24:50 > 0:24:53the current leadership.
0:24:53 > 0:24:57I'm the person who, over a year ago said that we would narrow the 20
0:24:57 > 0:24:59points gap in the opinion polls and I said we do it
0:24:59 > 0:25:00within 12 months.
0:25:00 > 0:25:02In fact, we did it within six months.
0:25:02 > 0:25:05I'm the person telling you, that we're going to move
0:25:05 > 0:25:06ahead of this government, steadily and surely
0:25:06 > 0:25:08as next year unfolds.
0:25:08 > 0:25:10It has been a year of particularly vituperative dialogue and anger
0:25:10 > 0:25:12and you've suffered enormously under that this year.
0:25:12 > 0:25:16Have you ever felt like you want to just jack it all in?
0:25:16 > 0:25:17It's been difficult.
0:25:17 > 0:25:20I think it's 45% of abusive tweets sent to MPs came to me.
0:25:20 > 0:25:23But not just difficult for me, difficult for my staff who have
0:25:23 > 0:25:25to open all the letters because it's not just online,
0:25:25 > 0:25:26it's letters and so on.
0:25:26 > 0:25:27Do you read the stuff?
0:25:27 > 0:25:29I don't read all of it.
0:25:29 > 0:25:32My staff have to read it all and my staff have to go online
0:25:32 > 0:25:35and look at Twitter because that's how we communicate with people.
0:25:35 > 0:25:36And it's been horrible for them.
0:25:36 > 0:25:40But I would say that I have had a lot of support as well
0:25:40 > 0:25:43from people in Hackney who have been really lovely.
0:25:43 > 0:25:45They could see I was under terrible attack, not just online
0:25:45 > 0:25:48but from mainstream media.
0:25:48 > 0:25:51Everywhere I went they would stop me and say, we think you're doing
0:25:51 > 0:25:52a really good job, carry on.
0:25:52 > 0:25:53And that was very positive.
0:25:53 > 0:25:56I also got a lot of support nationally, cards and letters.
0:25:56 > 0:26:01So it was tough but I got support.
0:26:01 > 0:26:062018, what are your hopes and fears for 2018 then?
0:26:06 > 0:26:09We're going to move decisively above the Tories in the opinion
0:26:09 > 0:26:11polls, just as I said we would eliminate the gap, we're
0:26:11 > 0:26:14going to move decisively forward and I'm confident about that.
0:26:14 > 0:26:17And, you know, the Tories are in a state.
0:26:17 > 0:26:20The negotiations are shambles.
0:26:20 > 0:26:25Last week they couldn't even get the legislation through the House
0:26:25 > 0:26:30of Commons so it may well be that 2018 will see a general election.
0:26:30 > 0:26:40Diane Abbott, thank you very much indeed.
0:26:41 > 0:26:44We'll be looking at the conservatives yet tomorrow.
0:26:44 > 0:26:46The Church of England appointed a new Bishop
0:26:46 > 0:26:47of London today - the 133rd.
0:26:47 > 0:26:49And she is the Right Reverend Sarah Mullally.
0:26:49 > 0:26:52She's not the first woman bishop, but she is the first in that role,
0:26:52 > 0:26:55she's now the most senior woman in the Church,
0:26:55 > 0:26:58and she is ranked number three in the overall hierarchy there.
0:26:58 > 0:27:01The Church of England has a vision of the church
0:27:01 > 0:27:04being at the heart of every community, a church
0:27:04 > 0:27:07that is confident in prayer, a church that is confident speaking
0:27:07 > 0:27:10about the Lord Jesus Christ.
0:27:10 > 0:27:13You might have expected that the more conservative segment
0:27:13 > 0:27:16of the church might have been upset at the appointment, given
0:27:16 > 0:27:18their opposition to women bishops, but there has been little publicly
0:27:18 > 0:27:19expressed anger today.
0:27:19 > 0:27:21So has the church managed to navigate its way
0:27:21 > 0:27:25through the tricky territory that comes with balancing
0:27:25 > 0:27:27the interest of liberal modernity with the traditions
0:27:27 > 0:27:29of the scripture?
0:27:29 > 0:27:33Jayne Ozanne is a gay evangelical who sits on the general synod
0:27:33 > 0:27:36and campaigns for equal rights for women and the LGBT community.
0:27:36 > 0:27:40Rod Thomas is the Bishop of Maidstone - he led the campaign
0:27:40 > 0:27:43against the idea of women bishops and works within a wing
0:27:43 > 0:27:45of the church which lives with but doesn't engage
0:27:45 > 0:27:48with women bishops.
0:27:48 > 0:28:00Very good evening to you both. Jayne, you must be very pleased.I'm
0:28:00 > 0:28:04absolutely thrilled. It's a big day for women in the Church who want to
0:28:04 > 0:28:10serve. For Bishop Sarah to have the third most senior role, it's a real
0:28:10 > 0:28:15breakthrough when only 10% of our bishops are female, particularly in
0:28:15 > 0:28:21London where only one in ten of paid posts are women. To have a woman in
0:28:21 > 0:28:26such is the new position is a real breakthrough for us.Rod, this is
0:28:26 > 0:28:32not what you would have wanted. How would you describe your reaction?I
0:28:32 > 0:28:38have no issue of Sarah for two years. I like her. She is very easy
0:28:38 > 0:28:42to be with. People in London will find her very easy to be with. She's
0:28:42 > 0:28:49very gifted and has a lot to give. I do want to say these things.
0:28:49 > 0:28:53Relationships are important. Against what you said in your introduction,
0:28:53 > 0:28:58I don't stand aside from women bishops, I try to be as involved as
0:28:58 > 0:29:09I can in there by diseases. Of course, her appointment raises
0:29:09 > 0:29:12questions for conservative evangelicals. They will be looking
0:29:12 > 0:29:18for particular arrangements so they can hold their theology with
0:29:18 > 0:29:22integrity.You are a flying bishop. For those churches who don't like
0:29:22 > 0:29:28the idea of a woman consecrating a priest, you will go in and do that
0:29:28 > 0:29:33for her. Effectively. Is that how this compromise works?It is largely
0:29:33 > 0:29:38how it works but it is all under her control quite frankly. She can
0:29:38 > 0:29:42decide whether to give me permission to do this or not. That is part of
0:29:42 > 0:29:48the agreement that we reached in 2014. But she can't ignore the
0:29:48 > 0:29:52desires of a parish to have arrangements. That was part of the
0:29:52 > 0:29:56deal. It has to be worked out in an arrangement and that is what we are
0:29:56 > 0:30:05doing.Does this tortuous accommodation work?Bishop Sarah has
0:30:05 > 0:30:10said that she wants to make it work and if there is hope in London, it
0:30:10 > 0:30:16is the rest. A lot of people think that our ministry is tainted just
0:30:16 > 0:30:20because we are a woman but Bishop Sarah is keen to try and find a
0:30:20 > 0:30:25compromise. I'm all for agreeing to disagree but when we start to cause
0:30:25 > 0:30:29harm and info to people that they are less than that I start to worry
0:30:29 > 0:30:35about what we are telling our young people tomorrow.
0:30:35 > 0:30:39If we accept that you have worked it out and painfully negotiated it and
0:30:39 > 0:30:44everybody is sticking to the deal, is this nothing to the argument that
0:30:44 > 0:30:48is about to occur on sexuality?I think there is a hope that we will
0:30:48 > 0:30:52find the same way of agreeing to disagree but I come back to the
0:30:52 > 0:30:57point about harm. What harm are we doing to those when we start saying
0:30:57 > 0:31:01they are not valid, their sexuality does not exist?The issue is
0:31:01 > 0:31:08different, it has to be said. Whereas with women bishops we
0:31:08 > 0:31:12decided as part of the negotiations that it was not one that ought to
0:31:12 > 0:31:17cause disunity, it should be one week could agree to disagree, the
0:31:17 > 0:31:20issue if sexuality is different because the teaching in the Bible
0:31:20 > 0:31:28seems to be so clear. And therefore it becomes a primary, not a
0:31:28 > 0:31:33secondary issue. Because it is a primary issue it has the capacity to
0:31:33 > 0:31:37split the church, I hope it does not happen but it has done it in the
0:31:37 > 0:31:40United States and it could conceivably do it here.What we are
0:31:40 > 0:31:45hearing is that the Bible is not clear on women and it is clear on
0:31:45 > 0:31:48sexuality which is rubbish. There are people who hold strong views on
0:31:48 > 0:31:53both sides who take the Bible as the mandate.We are not going to
0:31:53 > 0:31:57rehearse the argument now about the plate in the Scripture but is
0:31:57 > 0:32:00whether you can reach compromise but what you're saying is that will not
0:32:00 > 0:32:06happen?What does not believe that I can be Christian and gave -- Rod
0:32:06 > 0:32:14does not believe I can be Christian and gay.Anybody can be a Christian
0:32:14 > 0:32:21whatever their sexuality. The issue is how they follow the Bible's
0:32:21 > 0:32:25teaching as part of their discipleship of Christ. As with all
0:32:25 > 0:32:30of us, we all had to change in all sorts of respects and in the case of
0:32:30 > 0:32:37the expression of our sexuality, the Bible's teaching has always been
0:32:37 > 0:32:39that sexual intimacy was for marriage between a man and a woman
0:32:39 > 0:32:47and not otherwise.The answer then is that with purchasing homosexual
0:32:47 > 0:32:51acts, you can be a proper Christian. What I wanted Sikh is not that you
0:32:51 > 0:32:56cannot be a proper Christian but as part of their discipleship I would
0:32:56 > 0:32:59want to encourage the joint exploration of what the Bible says
0:32:59 > 0:33:03and then it is up to the individual conscience.You started by saying
0:33:03 > 0:33:08the Bible is clear when there are many others who disagree that does
0:33:08 > 0:33:12not allow for disagreement and use it as a first order issue which
0:33:12 > 0:33:16means I cannot be Christian and practising gay and when you talk
0:33:16 > 0:33:20about confirmation. When I try to transform an evangelical to live
0:33:20 > 0:33:23with a straight or single life I ended up fighting for my life in
0:33:23 > 0:33:28hospital twice and that is what I mean about harm. The harm we do with
0:33:28 > 0:33:32these teaching of the church is to get to grips and understand it.
0:33:32 > 0:33:36Might takeaway is that the sexuality issue will be harder to reach a
0:33:36 > 0:33:41settlement on than has been...I think we have more to lose in terms
0:33:41 > 0:33:43of peoples lives.Thank you much indeed.
0:33:43 > 0:33:47Tis the season of goodwill, and boy, do we need one, you might say.
0:33:47 > 0:33:49Ill-will seems to have been the hallmark of public discourse.
0:33:49 > 0:33:53We've spoken a bit about hate in politics with Diane Abbott,
0:33:53 > 0:33:55but relations between Muslims and non-Muslims have potentially
0:33:55 > 0:33:57been strained this year with several terror attacks,
0:33:57 > 0:34:00and the hardened attitudes that sometimes follow.
0:34:00 > 0:34:03Perhaps with community harmony in mind, Twitter today chose
0:34:03 > 0:34:06to suspend the accounts of the two leaders of the far right
0:34:06 > 0:34:09group Britain First - it was one of them that was
0:34:09 > 0:34:13retweeted by President Trump.
0:34:13 > 0:34:17In a few moments, we'll reflect on Islamophobia
0:34:17 > 0:34:23in the UK with Sayeeda Warsi, at what is the end
0:34:23 > 0:34:24of a difficult 2017.
0:34:24 > 0:34:29It's been yet another year that has seen violence in the news.
0:34:29 > 0:34:30Division between Muslims and non-Muslims is a
0:34:30 > 0:34:35theme that won't fade.
0:34:35 > 0:34:38Some react by creating barriers, others react by trying ever
0:34:38 > 0:34:42harder to take them down.
0:34:42 > 0:34:45In Parliament, the all-party group on British Muslims
0:34:45 > 0:34:48publishes its report tomorrow, stressing the work of
0:34:48 > 0:34:52Muslims who try to do good beyond their own community itself.
0:34:52 > 0:34:53Muslim charities that are working over Christmas
0:34:53 > 0:34:57to the benefit of all.
0:34:57 > 0:35:00The group notes that this is not the stuff of newspaper headlines
0:35:00 > 0:35:02which too often focus on the negative
0:35:02 > 0:35:05rather than positive.
0:35:05 > 0:35:08If that's a form of Islamophobia or is that just to be
0:35:08 > 0:35:13expected from the media went to the attacks are occurring?
0:35:14 > 0:35:16Baroness Warsi worries that it is the former.
0:35:16 > 0:35:19She's a prominent Conservative peer, a Muslim, and a member
0:35:19 > 0:35:28of the all-party group.
0:35:28 > 0:35:30She said this year that Islamophobia is Britain's
0:35:30 > 0:35:31latest bigotry blindspot.
0:35:31 > 0:35:33Does she think that a report highlighting the good that Muslim
0:35:33 > 0:35:35charities do here can change that?
0:35:35 > 0:35:40Baroness Warsi is with me now.
0:35:40 > 0:35:47Good evening to you. Do you think we end the year with all the strains of
0:35:47 > 0:35:51the attacks earlier, do you feel we end the year in a worse or better
0:35:51 > 0:35:56position in terms of a -- Islamophobia and attacks and in
0:35:56 > 0:36:00general community relations?What we're trying to do is end the year
0:36:00 > 0:36:04in a better position. It is the season of goodwill and that was why
0:36:04 > 0:36:07we felt at the all-party Parliamentary group on British
0:36:07 > 0:36:10Muslims that this was the right time to release these findings from a
0:36:10 > 0:36:15report that will be published in the New Year called faith is the fourth
0:36:15 > 0:36:19emergency service. One aspect was this huge amount of volunteering
0:36:19 > 0:36:24that was happening up and down the country, British Muslims doing at
0:36:24 > 0:36:28this time of Christmas.And crucially not just helping other
0:36:28 > 0:36:32Muslims but Muslims working for the community in general.And what we
0:36:32 > 0:36:36found when we heard the evidence was that the majority of the work that
0:36:36 > 0:36:42was being done around Christmas, the donors and volunteers were
0:36:42 > 0:36:45predominantly Muslim from the charities we were speaking to but
0:36:45 > 0:36:49the majority of the beneficiaries were not and it was real interfaith
0:36:49 > 0:36:53work. What we were trying to do in the report and when we launched this
0:36:53 > 0:36:56tomorrow is highlight that everybody including Muslims will be working
0:36:56 > 0:37:00towards hopefully a very Merry Muslim Christmas!You have not
0:37:00 > 0:37:05answered my question, which is do you think we end the year with
0:37:05 > 0:37:10relations under strain? You might have expected after their being four
0:37:10 > 0:37:17attacks, you might expect that it will get worse and worse. If it
0:37:17 > 0:37:22hasn't, you might say that is a result and we held it together.This
0:37:22 > 0:37:25has been an incredibly difficult year not just with the attacks but
0:37:25 > 0:37:29the many more that were thwarted and the hate crime that followed each of
0:37:29 > 0:37:34the attacks. It has been a difficult year and also we have a man in the
0:37:34 > 0:37:40White House who think it is OK and acceptable to retweet far right
0:37:40 > 0:37:43activists from the UK. He has practically declared open season. We
0:37:43 > 0:37:48have had that year where people in the media have talked about the
0:37:48 > 0:37:53Muslim problem, much to the horror of many people who said it was
0:37:53 > 0:37:57reminiscent of Nazi Germany. There have been some real low points this
0:37:57 > 0:38:00year which is why even more so what parliamentarians are trying to do is
0:38:00 > 0:38:06focus on the good.Focus on the positive. How about the Conservative
0:38:06 > 0:38:12Party? Do you see much good news there on this issue? You were part
0:38:12 > 0:38:17of the modernising wing. Has that all dripped away or do you think
0:38:17 > 0:38:22Theresa May is continuing it?I think many of my colleagues and the
0:38:22 > 0:38:26Prime Minister would accept this, if you look at the support amongst
0:38:26 > 0:38:29black and Asian minority ethnic communities and specifically the
0:38:29 > 0:38:33British Muslim community, it has fallen since it high point of 2015
0:38:33 > 0:38:38when it was in the 20s and it is now back to about 17%. Not just in
0:38:38 > 0:38:41British Muslim communities but a real concern among conservatives
0:38:41 > 0:38:46that we are beginning to fall back. And what has the party done wrong?
0:38:46 > 0:38:50What have you noticed that makes you angry and makes you feel that you
0:38:50 > 0:38:55are annoyed being a conservative to see this?First and foremost we have
0:38:55 > 0:38:58all talked about Brexit and when you focus on a single issue in the way
0:38:58 > 0:39:05that we have...A lot of Muslims voted for Brexit.People from all
0:39:05 > 0:39:09communities did but for most people there is a world out there bigger
0:39:09 > 0:39:13than Brexit and when we have a government which unfortunately come
0:39:13 > 0:39:16and to some extent without much choice, as to focus obsessively on
0:39:16 > 0:39:20one issue, much of the other work being done is not being heard. The
0:39:20 > 0:39:24race disparity audit was a really important piece of work commissioned
0:39:24 > 0:39:28by Theresa May to say that we need to have a mapping of web communities
0:39:28 > 0:39:33are being left behind.Too close to Donald Trump? Holding hands, did it
0:39:33 > 0:39:38make you...That was not a good look and certainly many of us and I am
0:39:38 > 0:39:42sure Theresa herself probably did not enjoy that moment. That is why
0:39:42 > 0:39:48do we need to put all of that one side and focus a very Merry Muslim
0:39:48 > 0:39:50Christmas.Thank you very much indeed.
0:39:50 > 0:39:52That's just about it for tonight.
0:39:52 > 0:39:54Before we go, we have some music for you.
0:39:54 > 0:39:56The One Heart Refugee Choir formed recently.
0:39:56 > 0:39:58Its members are mainly former refugees and current asylum seekers
0:39:58 > 0:40:01who have made their way to Britain from less stable countries
0:40:01 > 0:40:03around the world.
0:40:03 > 0:40:06They've recorded their own version of Bill Withers' classic
0:40:06 > 0:40:08'Lean On Me' to raise awareness of refugee issues.
0:40:08 > 0:40:10You can find the full version on YouTube if you wish,
0:40:10 > 0:40:14and here's a taste.
0:40:14 > 0:40:17Emily is here tomorrow for our last show of the year.
0:40:17 > 0:40:19Goodnight.
0:40:34 > 0:40:43# Lean on me when you're not strong # I'll be your friend, I'll help you
0:40:43 > 0:40:48carry on # For it won't be long
0:40:48 > 0:40:56# Till I'm going to need somebody to lean on
0:40:56 > 0:41:00# Just call on me brother when you need at hand
0:41:00 > 0:41:07# We all need somebody to lean on # I just might have a problem that
0:41:07 > 0:41:19you will understand # We all need somebody to lean on.
0:41:19 > 0:41:27# Lean on me # You can lean on me
0:41:27 > 0:41:35# Lean on me # Why don't you lean on me
0:41:35 > 0:41:37# You can lean
0:41:37 > 0:41:39# You can lean on me #.