0:00:07 > 0:00:10Which Theresa May was it to be?
0:00:10 > 0:00:12A bold Theresa May, clearing out the Cabinet,
0:00:12 > 0:00:14refreshing the government with a reshuffle?
0:00:19 > 0:00:20CRASHES.
0:00:20 > 0:00:23Or a cautious Theresa May, gently tidying the edges?
0:00:25 > 0:00:29Probably, in the end, it was meant to be a cautious reshuffle,
0:00:29 > 0:00:32but it turned out not to quite be the one Theresa May wanted.
0:00:32 > 0:00:34We'll ask what it means for the Prime Minister,
0:00:34 > 0:00:41and the future of her government.
0:00:41 > 0:00:47Also tonight...
0:00:47 > 0:00:51In July 2017, I discovered the enormous gap that the two men who
0:00:51 > 0:00:54were international editors were earning 50% more, at least, than the
0:00:54 > 0:01:01two women who were international editors.
0:01:01 > 0:01:04Months on, and the BBC pay row is unsolved.
0:01:04 > 0:01:05We'll ask, how come?
0:01:05 > 0:01:06Is it really that hard to crack?
0:01:06 > 0:01:08Three months after the murder of this investigative
0:01:08 > 0:01:10journalist in Malta, we're back on the island
0:01:10 > 0:01:13to ask the Prime Minister what impact her death had on him.
0:01:13 > 0:01:16She was a very specific risk critic of many people. I might have been
0:01:16 > 0:01:20top of that list. And this doesn't the good on me. I'm very realistic
0:01:20 > 0:01:27on this.Ladies and gentlemen, the first Lady President of the United
0:01:27 > 0:01:28States...
0:01:28 > 0:01:30So couldthisreally happen?
0:01:30 > 0:01:32We'll hear why America is abuzz with talk that Oprah Winfrey
0:01:32 > 0:01:36might run for President.
0:01:40 > 0:01:42Hello.
0:01:42 > 0:01:43A lot of government reshuffles don't go smoothly.
0:01:43 > 0:01:45Today's was no exception.
0:01:45 > 0:01:47There was the tweeting of Chris Grayling's
0:01:47 > 0:01:49elevation to Chairman of the Conservative Party,
0:01:49 > 0:01:53when the job in fact went to Brandon Lewis.
0:01:53 > 0:01:55But that on its own wouldn't make for a great episode
0:01:55 > 0:01:57of The Thick of It.
0:01:57 > 0:01:59The real issue was that Theresa May had built this
0:01:59 > 0:02:01up as a major refresh, and an assertion of her
0:02:01 > 0:02:03renewed authority.
0:02:03 > 0:02:12But, in the end, it didn't quite live up to that expectation, partly,
0:02:12 > 0:02:14as it turned out, because she could not make
0:02:14 > 0:02:15all the changes she wanted.
0:02:15 > 0:02:18So let's have a quick look at the comings and goings: the big
0:02:18 > 0:02:20star of the reshuffle is David Lidington -
0:02:20 > 0:02:22a little-known name, he is the new Damian Green,
0:02:22 > 0:02:25but will not be called First Secretary of State
0:02:25 > 0:02:26or Deputy Prime Minister.
0:02:26 > 0:02:28He does have a big and central role as the Prime
0:02:28 > 0:02:30Minister's right-hand man.
0:02:30 > 0:02:33But some other notable reshuffle names were two men that didn't move:
0:02:33 > 0:02:35Jeremy Hunt stays in health, but gets a bigger departmental name:
0:02:35 > 0:02:40Health and Social Care.
0:02:40 > 0:02:44And Greg Clark stays at the business department,
0:02:44 > 0:02:47despite there being a lot of chatter about him being kicked out.
0:02:47 > 0:02:49The Prime Minister couldn't shuffle them, nor the education
0:02:49 > 0:02:55secretary Justine Greening.
0:02:55 > 0:02:57She's gone from Cabinet, after refusing to move
0:02:57 > 0:02:59from education to the Work and Pensions department.
0:02:59 > 0:03:01The DWP now goes to Ester McVey, a one-time TV presenter,
0:03:01 > 0:03:04who has worked as a junior minister in the department.
0:03:04 > 0:03:14Well, our political editor Nick Watt is with me.
0:03:18 > 0:03:21To me, it seems like a lot of people are resisting the kind of plans
0:03:21 > 0:03:25Theresa May may have them, an unusual number of affected by them?
0:03:25 > 0:03:29Yes, it has happened in the past that ministers say I don't want to
0:03:29 > 0:03:33move, and a weak Prime Minister caves, and a strong Prime Minister
0:03:33 > 0:03:40says no. Today was a score draw for Theresa May because she said yes to
0:03:40 > 0:03:48Jeremy Hunt who wanted to stay at health, and no to Justine Greening.
0:03:48 > 0:03:53Tory members are being pretty critical, she started out as Michael
0:03:53 > 0:03:57Howard said this morning strong and able to do what you wanted and by
0:03:57 > 0:04:01this evening showing she perhaps can't fully assert her authority.
0:04:01 > 0:04:04But on day two of the reshuffle tomorrow, the junior in the middle
0:04:04 > 0:04:08ranks, we are told we will see many more women, many more younger people
0:04:08 > 0:04:13and much more Tory MPs from black and minority ethnic minorities and
0:04:13 > 0:04:18crucially the number of women attending Cabinet goes up from eight
0:04:18 > 0:04:26to ten.OK, David Liddington, a big Euro fan, a known Remainer and he
0:04:26 > 0:04:34has this key role.That's right, he has the big Brexit role, and it is
0:04:34 > 0:04:38chairing a series of Cabinet committees on Brexit and domestic
0:04:38 > 0:04:43policy whether Prime Minister is not so focused, so she can focus
0:04:43 > 0:04:46absolutely on the Brexit negotiations and the domestic policy
0:04:46 > 0:04:51of national security and the economy. Now, he hasn't got the
0:04:51 > 0:04:53first Secretary of State title, and ministers who have gone to the
0:04:53 > 0:04:57Cabinet Office with a great fanfare, if they don't have something to tell
0:04:57 > 0:05:02Whitehall they are a big beast, they normally run into trouble. But David
0:05:02 > 0:05:07Lidington has two things that tell Whitehall he's a big beast. David
0:05:07 > 0:05:11Lidington. He is well known and he is well respected. So I've been
0:05:11 > 0:05:19looking at this very long day that didn't quite go to plan.
0:05:19 > 0:05:24It has been a torrid six months for Theresa May. Today was the moment
0:05:24 > 0:05:28for the Prime Minister to finally assert her authority over her
0:05:28 > 0:05:33government and party after the disastrous general election setback.
0:05:33 > 0:05:38It all started so well when the Prime Minister stood on the steps of
0:05:38 > 0:05:42Downing Street to show off the new group of MPs she hopes will
0:05:42 > 0:05:47rejuvenate the Conservative Party. But as the day wore on, the
0:05:47 > 0:05:51reshuffle is started, and this evening the Prime Minister was
0:05:51 > 0:05:56shaken by the surprise resignation of Justine Greening. Who spurned the
0:05:56 > 0:06:01offer of a move to the Department for Work and Pensions during a
0:06:01 > 0:06:07two-hour visit to number ten. I understand Theresa May and Justine
0:06:07 > 0:06:12Greening have had a troubled relationship. One person who knows
0:06:12 > 0:06:14the Prime Minister's Mind told me that she never really believed that
0:06:14 > 0:06:19the outgoing Education Secretary had signed up to many of the Tory school
0:06:19 > 0:06:24reforms. For her part, Justine Greening is furious with what she
0:06:24 > 0:06:29regarded as negative press reports about her in recent weeks. Over the
0:06:29 > 0:06:33weekend, she told friends that she was blaming Boris Johnson for
0:06:33 > 0:06:37leading the charge against her, after she raised questions about the
0:06:37 > 0:06:43handling of Brexit in cabinet meetings. Conservative MPs are
0:06:43 > 0:06:47complaining to me that Theresa May has emerged diminished from this
0:06:47 > 0:06:52reshuffle after the resignation of Justin Greening, and because other
0:06:52 > 0:06:57ministers successfully resisted some of the Prime Minister's original
0:06:57 > 0:07:00plans. Jeremy Hunt spent more than an hour in Downing Street, pleading
0:07:00 > 0:07:05with the Prime Minister to keep his job as Health Secretary, as he
0:07:05 > 0:07:09resisted a proposed move to the business department. The Prime
0:07:09 > 0:07:13Minister eventually relented, and finally granted him his wish, to be
0:07:13 > 0:07:20given the additional responsibility of social care. Others said Theresa
0:07:20 > 0:07:26May has emerged from today unscathed.I have described her as
0:07:26 > 0:07:30Zebedee, because she is someone who just pops up and has incredible
0:07:30 > 0:07:34resilience, against all the odds. If you look at all the difficulties
0:07:34 > 0:07:37following the election, everything that has happened since, she seems
0:07:37 > 0:07:41to still be there, and I think she made the right decision by having a
0:07:41 > 0:07:44cabinet reshuffle at the beginning of the year. Stamp her authority to
0:07:44 > 0:07:49set an agenda from day one.The Prime Minister learned today that
0:07:49 > 0:07:55shuffling the pack is always a fraught business. Where a bold
0:07:55 > 0:07:58Theresa May sacked a series of ministers on her first day in
0:07:58 > 0:08:04Downing Street, 18 months later a more timid Prime Minister trod
0:08:04 > 0:08:08gingerly around this most delicate process.
0:08:08 > 0:08:11We were due to be joined now by the Tory MP Grant Shapps,
0:08:11 > 0:08:14but he's been held up in parliament at a vote.
0:08:14 > 0:08:17We'll move on, and we'll try to get to him later,
0:08:17 > 0:08:21if the wheels of democracy start moving more quickly.
0:08:21 > 0:08:24In case you thought the BBC gender pay controversy,
0:08:24 > 0:08:26which erupted last summer, had gone away, it hasn't!
0:08:26 > 0:08:27It re-emerged last night with the resignation
0:08:27 > 0:08:31of Carrie Gracie as the BBC's China Editor.
0:08:31 > 0:08:34It was one of those "only at the BBC" days -
0:08:34 > 0:08:37she resigned from that post on Sunday, then presented the Today
0:08:37 > 0:08:40programme on Radio 4 this morning.
0:08:40 > 0:08:42But the real effect of Carrie Gracie's move
0:08:42 > 0:08:45is to highlight just how hard the BBC is finding it
0:08:45 > 0:08:51to solve the problem that became evident last year.
0:08:51 > 0:08:56# Money makes the world go round, the world go round...
0:08:56 > 0:09:01It is ironic that Easy Jet
0:09:01 > 0:09:04published its own paygap last week, far bigger than the BBC's -
0:09:04 > 0:09:05but it has a clearer excuse.
0:09:05 > 0:09:08Yes, women employees earn 45% less than men -
0:09:08 > 0:09:11but that is mainly accounted for by the fact that few women
0:09:11 > 0:09:13are pilots, and many of them are flight attendants.
0:09:13 > 0:09:14Flight attendants get paid less than pilots.
0:09:14 > 0:09:17Nothing illegal about that, as long women pilots and women
0:09:17 > 0:09:27flight attendants get the same as their male counterparts.
0:09:28 > 0:09:31When I started the China job, I said I would only do this job if I am
0:09:31 > 0:09:37paid equally. And in July 2017I discovered the enormous gap that the
0:09:37 > 0:09:42two men who were international editors were earning 50% more, at
0:09:42 > 0:09:46least, than the two women who were international editors.
0:09:46 > 0:09:49But Carrie Gracie's scathing critique of the BBC is that she -
0:09:49 > 0:09:51and many other women - are getting less for
0:09:51 > 0:09:53the same job as men.
0:09:53 > 0:10:01Can the BBC defend that?
0:10:01 > 0:10:04We did ask to speak to the BBC today, but nobody was available.
0:10:04 > 0:10:07In a statement, the organisation said that fairness in pay was vital,
0:10:07 > 0:10:09and that the BBC was performing better than some
0:10:09 > 0:10:10other organisations.
0:10:10 > 0:10:13The BBC has conducted a judge-led audit of the pay
0:10:13 > 0:10:15of most of its staff, and is now doing a separate
0:10:15 > 0:10:16review of on-air staff.
0:10:16 > 0:10:18I'm joined now by lawyer Jennifer Millins, who is
0:10:18 > 0:10:21representing several of the women taking cases against the BBC.
0:10:21 > 0:10:24Also here is Sian Kevill - she's a TV executive who used to be
0:10:24 > 0:10:26the editor of Newsnight, before going on to be
0:10:26 > 0:10:29the director of BBC World News.
0:10:29 > 0:10:34A very good evening to you both. Jennifer, look, the review, is there
0:10:34 > 0:10:38an argument here, the BBC is reviewing on-air talent, they are
0:10:38 > 0:10:43just waiting until that is out of the way until the do anything. Is
0:10:43 > 0:10:47that a fair defence?It is certainly going to feed into a number of the
0:10:47 > 0:10:51complaint and may give some answers to some of those complaints. It may
0:10:51 > 0:10:55just fuel the fire, though. We have seen with the equal pay audits that
0:10:55 > 0:10:59came out in October that very studiously set-aside on-air talent
0:10:59 > 0:11:03is being a little bit difficult to deal with, that actually those
0:11:03 > 0:11:06reports can themselves lead to further questions about pay
0:11:06 > 0:11:09disparity. Certainly there was a lot made this morning by the BBC of the
0:11:09 > 0:11:14fact there is no systematic discrimination at the BBC, as Sir
0:11:14 > 0:11:16Justice Alliance said, Patrick Alaia said in his report last October,
0:11:16 > 0:11:23when he was looking at the ABC equal pay audits, but he also said that
0:11:23 > 0:11:31did not rule out individual cases of discrimination.So systematic bias
0:11:31 > 0:11:39was ruled out.And that excluded on-air talent completely.Sian, when
0:11:39 > 0:11:43you were a manager, how difficult was it to Sepe in a way that was
0:11:43 > 0:11:51deemed to be fair, and comparative? It is a very tricky position on pay.
0:11:51 > 0:11:54As a manager, when you are giving somebody a job, the first thing you
0:11:54 > 0:11:57have to do is they come in with a pay level, and that could have been
0:11:57 > 0:12:00determined by all sorts of factors way beyond your control. They may
0:12:00 > 0:12:04have been tried to have been poached at one point, they may have gone
0:12:04 > 0:12:07into war zones, which required a higher salary, they may have worked
0:12:07 > 0:12:12in an area where it was highly competitive. So you come in with
0:12:12 > 0:12:18somebody with a salary, and then you have to decide, you're very unlikely
0:12:18 > 0:12:24to it. If somebody comes in with a very low salary, you may give them a
0:12:24 > 0:12:29huge increase but it is still not comparable. And you have a duty to
0:12:29 > 0:12:33try to defend the licence fee and not just handed out. You want to
0:12:33 > 0:12:37keep as much as you can to put on screen as opposed to giving it to
0:12:37 > 0:12:42people.Is a US edit of the same job as the China editor, because I know
0:12:42 > 0:12:46in a way that is Carrie Gracie's argument, these are two
0:12:46 > 0:12:50international editors, one is a man, one is a woman?I was quite shocked
0:12:50 > 0:12:55when I heard about the disparity. Listening to the coverage today. And
0:12:55 > 0:13:01I think it is difficult when you have a job title which is the same.
0:13:01 > 0:13:06When you have a same job title, it does seem to denote that you have
0:13:06 > 0:13:10roughly the same sort of salary, and even Carrie wasn't asking for
0:13:10 > 0:13:15absolute equivalents. There could have been some disparity, the scale
0:13:15 > 0:13:19of the disparity. So are the differences between the two jobs?
0:13:19 > 0:13:24Well, there are, but it is very difficult, it is incredibly
0:13:24 > 0:13:29difficult to try and work out whether covering the manic stuff
0:13:29 > 0:13:35going on in the Trump White House is the same as dealing with the
0:13:35 > 0:13:40oppression of a Chinese regime. Jennifer, you would agree that if
0:13:40 > 0:13:44some reason the BBC created a Kazakhstan editor of not be the same
0:13:44 > 0:13:48job as a US edit or a China editor, and with that excepted legally when
0:13:48 > 0:13:54you sit down and give legal advice? There is a whole melting pot of
0:13:54 > 0:13:57factors as to whether there is legal equivalents for men and women in
0:13:57 > 0:14:01their jobs and in pay. That is why these claims are very difficult to
0:14:01 > 0:14:05bring but they are also pretty difficult to defend, as well. There
0:14:05 > 0:14:11is a fact -based analysis that explicit that really values the
0:14:11 > 0:14:14worth of the individual, as compared to the e-mail they are comparing
0:14:14 > 0:14:18themselves against.What is your advice to the BBC as to how to deal
0:14:18 > 0:14:21with this, because they don't want to spend money, they have an
0:14:21 > 0:14:25obligation to the licence payer, difficult to go to the men and say,
0:14:25 > 0:14:29put your salaries down, or maybe they should do that, and difficult
0:14:29 > 0:14:32to find all the money that the women are claiming. What is your advice?
0:14:32 > 0:14:37is an issue of the BBC not wanting to spend money and not wanting to
0:14:37 > 0:14:41spend more licence fee payers' money but this is an issue about money,
0:14:41 > 0:14:44Carrie was clear she didn't want to be paid more, she wanted equality
0:14:44 > 0:14:48but it boils down to the issue of pay and how much people are paid,
0:14:48 > 0:14:53and the legal redress for these claims is to address that through
0:14:53 > 0:14:57pay, applying a pay equality clause. That take some time as well.Backpay
0:14:57 > 0:15:03of up to six years.That could be expensive.It could well be and if I
0:15:03 > 0:15:06were advising the BBC I would say they need to deal with individual
0:15:06 > 0:15:10complaints properly which they have struggled to do so far in genuine
0:15:10 > 0:15:14fashion, but also they need to look at their own data and not just quote
0:15:14 > 0:15:17them gender pay statistics, which is a different issue and a different
0:15:17 > 0:15:21analysis, but to look at their statistics. They have all the data,
0:15:21 > 0:15:24the individuals don't have that data.I'm afraid we need to leave it
0:15:24 > 0:15:28there, thank you both indeed. We are going to go back to politics now and
0:15:28 > 0:15:33Grant Shapps can join as. He was Tory Party Chairman and David
0:15:33 > 0:15:36Cameron and was outed last year as being the ringleader of a failed
0:15:36 > 0:15:40plot to remove Theresa May as Prime Minister.
0:15:40 > 0:15:43He's finished voting and joins me from Westminster.
0:15:43 > 0:15:46Good evening. What was your impression of the reshuffle, how was
0:15:46 > 0:15:50it handled?I'm not sure having a group of colleagues that wanted to
0:15:50 > 0:15:56talk to the Prime Minister qualifies as a plot. But, look, I thought
0:15:56 > 0:16:00clearly, let's be blunt, it wasn't a brilliantly executed performance
0:16:00 > 0:16:04with the reshuffle today. They are very difficult things to get right
0:16:04 > 0:16:07as I recall from time spent when I was chairman inside Downing Street
0:16:07 > 0:16:13looking out. But actually buried in the reshuffle I thought there were a
0:16:13 > 0:16:18couple of really good ideas, which I suspect won't quite get the coverage
0:16:18 > 0:16:22tomorrow. But I hope will matter in the long run. One of which was
0:16:22 > 0:16:24creating a Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government. I
0:16:24 > 0:16:27used to be housing Minister and always thought it was ridiculous
0:16:27 > 0:16:31that housing didn't have its own seat around the table as Secretary
0:16:31 > 0:16:36of State in Cabinet and that was really good. The other move which I
0:16:36 > 0:16:40thought was quite smart but will take some working out is taking
0:16:40 > 0:16:43health, Jeremy Hunt is there still, but bringing in social care, which
0:16:43 > 0:16:46although not everyone will know the complexities of this, actually comes
0:16:46 > 0:16:52from local councils at the moment, and that means it's actually under
0:16:52 > 0:16:55what was Communities and Local Government. The problem is you get
0:16:55 > 0:16:57bed blocking of the problems you hear about and bringing those
0:16:57 > 0:17:01together makes sense.I was confused on both of those because I thought
0:17:01 > 0:17:05housing was in the DCLG, so it's just a rebranding, and I thought a
0:17:05 > 0:17:09lot of social care was in the Department of Health, so that was a
0:17:09 > 0:17:14rebranding.On the first one you are absolutely right, housing was in
0:17:14 > 0:17:17DCLG, Communities and Local Government, but I can say this as a
0:17:17 > 0:17:20fact, when sitting around the Cabinet table people respond to the
0:17:20 > 0:17:24thing they think is most on your agenda, and by calling it the
0:17:24 > 0:17:29Ministry of Housing, I noticed that they said they will call it a
0:17:29 > 0:17:32Ministry rather than a department, by calling it a Ministry, which is
0:17:32 > 0:17:35an historic name for that department, will give a lot more
0:17:35 > 0:17:39focus to what the government says is one of its big priorities, building
0:17:39 > 0:17:45more homes. I thought there was some sense in that. And on social care
0:17:45 > 0:17:48budget, no, the money actually comes through the local council, the local
0:17:48 > 0:17:52authority side of things, and that makes it complicated.Let me move on
0:17:52 > 0:17:56because I want to ask you, do you still think where we are now, that
0:17:56 > 0:18:01she should step down, or do you think it's time for her to pause? Do
0:18:01 > 0:18:04you think there is enough young talent to which the party and the
0:18:04 > 0:18:07country being exposed, so that when there a leadership election they can
0:18:07 > 0:18:13skip a generation if they want to? I'm probably more or less unique in
0:18:13 > 0:18:17saying what I actually think about it, my view hasn't changed, nor do I
0:18:17 > 0:18:20think there is any point in banging on about it, I want Theresa May does
0:18:20 > 0:18:24exceed because I want the party to succeed because I don't want to see
0:18:24 > 0:18:27Jeremy Corbyn's Marxist government come in and destroy lives and jobs
0:18:27 > 0:18:30in this country. My view hasn't changed but I also recognise there
0:18:30 > 0:18:34is a lot of great talent. The other good thing today was seeing some of
0:18:34 > 0:18:39the talent, through, albeit perhaps slightly odd to focus on the party
0:18:39 > 0:18:44changes, which is where a lot of that talent was seen. Whereas, it
0:18:44 > 0:18:48must a couple of good changes in part, which I think will take some
0:18:48 > 0:18:51months and probably years to work through the system but could
0:18:51 > 0:18:54actually help deliver better health and social care together and better
0:18:54 > 0:18:57housing in this country. There was good stuff strangely buried in a
0:18:57 > 0:19:01reshuffle which didn't quite go to plan.Grant Shapps, thank you very
0:19:01 > 0:19:02much indeed.
0:19:02 > 0:19:03Could it really happen?
0:19:03 > 0:19:06Oprah Winfrey as a US president?
0:19:06 > 0:19:09The talk show queen is of course one female TV presenter who literally
0:19:09 > 0:19:12no-one thinks is badly remunerated - and after a well-received speech
0:19:12 > 0:19:15at the Golden Globes last night, all the talk today is that she might
0:19:15 > 0:19:18run for the White House in 2020.
0:19:18 > 0:19:20A new day is on the horizon!
0:19:20 > 0:19:29CHEERING.
0:19:29 > 0:19:33And when that new day finally dawns, it will be because of a lot
0:19:33 > 0:19:35of magnificent women, many of whom are right
0:19:35 > 0:19:41here in this room tonight!
0:19:41 > 0:19:43CHEERING.
0:19:43 > 0:19:45Thank you!
0:19:45 > 0:19:48Well, for liberals, disheartened by Trump,
0:19:48 > 0:19:51Oprah is a sense of hope of a new popular champion
0:19:51 > 0:19:54for their cause emerging.
0:19:54 > 0:19:56This talk of President Winfrey actually goes back some months,
0:19:56 > 0:19:58but the bookies' odds have shortened massively today.
0:19:58 > 0:20:01Even though she has no political experience,
0:20:01 > 0:20:04and has never run for, or held, office, CNN says some
0:20:04 > 0:20:06of her friends say she's now considering a run.
0:20:06 > 0:20:09If she did, and assuming Donald Trump fancied a second term,
0:20:09 > 0:20:13the 2020 US election would be quite a battle - apart from both
0:20:13 > 0:20:18being billionaire TV stars, in every other respect the two
0:20:18 > 0:20:19are almost comical opposites.
0:20:19 > 0:20:23Let's discuss this.
0:20:23 > 0:20:26Joining me from Atlanta is Anoa Changa - she's an activist
0:20:26 > 0:20:28and journalist who backed Bernie Sanders in the last
0:20:28 > 0:20:30Democrat primary.
0:20:30 > 0:20:40Good evening to you. First of all, will she ran?Well, I think that's
0:20:40 > 0:20:43up to Oprah, Oprah is definitely a woman who has charted her own path
0:20:43 > 0:20:48over the last several decades in her career from good morning Chicago, to
0:20:48 > 0:20:53her own show, to movies and this whole empire she has built, so
0:20:53 > 0:20:58whether or not she runs, we will all wait to see what Oprah ultimately
0:20:58 > 0:21:01does. Whether or not she should run, I guess that will be up to her and
0:21:01 > 0:21:06her confidence in her team whether or not that is something she should
0:21:06 > 0:21:11do..Delegate it to her, would you like her to run? Would you be
0:21:11 > 0:21:17excited?Me personally?Yes.I wouldn't be super excited, I
0:21:17 > 0:21:21wouldn't be upset but I really think American voters need to get away
0:21:21 > 0:21:25from our obsession with celebrity. The focus on celebrity in the 2016
0:21:25 > 0:21:30presidential general election here really overshadowed the need to
0:21:30 > 0:21:34focus on actual everyday Americans and the issues that are affecting
0:21:34 > 0:21:38people and doing real groundwork. One of the flaws I saw with Hillary
0:21:38 > 0:21:44Clinton, Secretary Clinton's campaign, was relying heavily on
0:21:44 > 0:21:45celebrity friends and supporters, instead of actually getting out
0:21:45 > 0:21:54there with the people. When you look at battle ground states like Hohaia,
0:21:54 > 0:21:56Florida, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin where she never campaigned people
0:21:56 > 0:22:01were clamouring for the leadership to talk to them, not necessarily the
0:22:01 > 0:22:06charisma of the leadership at the top -- Ohio. If Oprah were to run
0:22:06 > 0:22:09and she was the person, hopefully she would have policies and
0:22:09 > 0:22:12initiatives on the table that would really speak to the American public,
0:22:12 > 0:22:17particularly those across the board who are struggling, who are thinking
0:22:17 > 0:22:21about jobs, education, climate change, internationally, I'm sure,
0:22:21 > 0:22:25you would all like to see a leader that is taking so many things,
0:22:25 > 0:22:32global security, into consideration. Am I going to be super excited? No.
0:22:32 > 0:22:35You say you have the policies would be to the American people, but she
0:22:35 > 0:22:38is someone who has a powerful ability to speak to the American
0:22:38 > 0:22:42people. She would surely engage a lot of voters, wouldn't she? I
0:22:42 > 0:22:46wonder whether she would win because essentially there would be a lot of
0:22:46 > 0:22:49voters who may be sometimes don't vote who would come out and vote for
0:22:49 > 0:22:56her.I don't know that a lot of voters who didn't usually vote would
0:22:56 > 0:23:00come out and vote for her. Again, we saw so many celebrities come out on
0:23:00 > 0:23:05the Trail, we had Katy Perry, major firebrands, Jay-Z and Beyonce
0:23:05 > 0:23:09throwing concerts in Cleveland in 2016 and still didn't see the voter
0:23:09 > 0:23:14turnout. For Oprah or whoever amongst the celebrity double crowd
0:23:14 > 0:23:17who would step up to the challenge of running for President, we would
0:23:17 > 0:23:27really need to see them digging in on the issues. Oprah gave a rousing
0:23:27 > 0:23:31speech yesterday but we need more than speeches, we have heard
0:23:31 > 0:23:35wonderful eloquent people talk but we need policies right now. We have
0:23:35 > 0:23:39millions uninsured in America. I just spent 14 hours in an ER
0:23:39 > 0:23:43yesterday with my younger sister who does not have health insurance.
0:23:43 > 0:23:46Aintree is great but I need to know what's going to be done to address
0:23:46 > 0:23:50young students like my sister who have conditions that need treatment
0:23:50 > 0:23:55and they have to sit in an emergency room for care.Anoa Changa, your
0:23:55 > 0:24:00scepticism has come across well. Thank you so much indeed. Thanks.
0:24:00 > 0:24:01Back in October, an investigative journalist
0:24:01 > 0:24:04was assassinated in Malta.
0:24:04 > 0:24:07The death of Daphne Caruana Galizia put the island in the headlines
0:24:07 > 0:24:09for all the wrong reasons, bringing international attention
0:24:09 > 0:24:14to accusations of corruption and organised crime.
0:24:14 > 0:24:17Caruana Galizia had many enemies, including the Maltese Prime
0:24:17 > 0:24:19Minister, he condemned the killing as barbaric,
0:24:19 > 0:24:24and called on foreign
0:24:24 > 0:24:26security services to help with the investigation into it -
0:24:26 > 0:24:28we'll hear from him shortly.
0:24:28 > 0:24:30John Sweeney reported on the story for us in the immediate aftermath,
0:24:30 > 0:24:34and has been back to Malta.
0:24:34 > 0:24:37Fortress Malta has for centuries been virtually impregnable.
0:24:37 > 0:24:38Foreign invaders repelled by its defences,
0:24:38 > 0:24:48an island standing alone in the Mediterranean.
0:24:48 > 0:24:54But now Malta is in danger of falling to dirty money.
0:24:54 > 0:24:57And the one journalist who dared the most to tell their story
0:24:57 > 0:24:58has been assassinated.
0:24:58 > 0:25:00Daphne Caruana Galizia spent her life asking questions of
0:25:00 > 0:25:01those in power.
0:25:01 > 0:25:07Questions about the sale of passports, questions about
0:25:07 > 0:25:09government corruption, questions about a breakdown in the rule
0:25:09 > 0:25:11of law.
0:25:11 > 0:25:13Her assassination may have silenced her, but the questions she
0:25:13 > 0:25:15was asking, they haven't gone away.
0:25:15 > 0:25:19What on earth is going on on Malta?
0:25:19 > 0:25:21Daphne Caruana Galizia was Malta's most fearless
0:25:21 > 0:25:24investigative journalist.
0:25:24 > 0:25:27She was blown up in October driving away from her house.
0:25:27 > 0:25:32The fifth person to die in a car bomb in seven years.
0:25:33 > 0:25:36We're on our way to the scene of the crime.
0:25:36 > 0:25:38Three men have been charged.
0:25:38 > 0:25:42They deny the murder.
0:25:42 > 0:25:47Newspapers in Italy and Malta have reported investigators
0:25:47 > 0:25:50triangulated their whereabouts by tracking mobile phone use at the
0:25:50 > 0:25:54moment the bomb went off.
0:25:54 > 0:25:58The police believe there was a spotter on land on a hill
0:25:58 > 0:26:00overlooking the road down which Daphne Caruana Galizia
0:26:00 > 0:26:02was driving.
0:26:02 > 0:26:04Once the spotter had identified Daphne he then
0:26:04 > 0:26:06phoned his accomplice.
0:26:06 > 0:26:10He's the trigger man and he's on a boat offshore.
0:26:10 > 0:26:13The triggerman presses a button and a remote-control device
0:26:13 > 0:26:16explodes underneath Daphne's car.
0:26:16 > 0:26:18And the journalist is dead.
0:26:21 > 0:26:23The waters that Daphne was fishing in
0:26:23 > 0:26:27were much darker than even she imagined.
0:26:27 > 0:26:29The three accused worked in a warehouse and had been
0:26:29 > 0:26:32suspected of underworld activity.
0:26:32 > 0:26:36They'd never crossed Daphne's radar.
0:26:36 > 0:26:43Many suspect they were hired hands.
0:26:43 > 0:26:45Daphne has never ever mentioned these three persons in none of her
0:26:45 > 0:26:4820,000 articles plus.
0:26:48 > 0:26:56So, it's obvious, and it's an open secret,
0:26:56 > 0:26:59that these are not the persons who commissioned the murder and we will
0:26:59 > 0:27:02not rest until we know who commissioned the murder and what was
0:27:02 > 0:27:03the motive.
0:27:03 > 0:27:05Jason Azzopardi believes the question is not who
0:27:05 > 0:27:10carried out the killing but who ordered the hit.
0:27:10 > 0:27:12Over the years Daphne worked on many stories and
0:27:12 > 0:27:19made a lot of enemies on the island and beyond.
0:27:19 > 0:27:22At the time of her death Daphne was working on four major
0:27:22 > 0:27:23investigations.
0:27:23 > 0:27:26First, the sale of Maltese passports, a trade worth 310
0:27:26 > 0:27:31million euro to people from outside the European Union.
0:27:31 > 0:27:33Malta is the only state in the EU that sells
0:27:33 > 0:27:39passports so aggressively in this fashion.
0:27:39 > 0:27:43Some worry that many buying those passports are dodgy and so is
0:27:43 > 0:27:46their money, that Malta is being used as a back door by rich
0:27:46 > 0:27:48Russian gangsters and others to enter the EU.
0:27:48 > 0:27:54The passport scheme.
0:27:54 > 0:27:55The source of corruption.
0:27:55 > 0:27:57Who's buying these passports?
0:27:57 > 0:28:00The majority, it seems to be Russians and middle easterns, but
0:28:00 > 0:28:05principally Russians.
0:28:05 > 0:28:06And are they honest law-abiding hard-working
0:28:06 > 0:28:07Russian citizens?
0:28:07 > 0:28:10What I can say is that the due diligence leaves much
0:28:10 > 0:28:13to be desired, in the sense that the European Commission demanded a
0:28:13 > 0:28:1412-month residency requirement, whereas
0:28:14 > 0:28:17these people are barely spending one-hour in Malta.
0:28:17 > 0:28:19The passport trade brings so many millions of
0:28:19 > 0:28:22euros into government coffers that the Prime Minister travels the world
0:28:22 > 0:28:26flogging Maltese citizenship.
0:28:26 > 0:28:31But Daphne's murder has opened a can of
0:28:31 > 0:28:36worms, and many of those worms are at the heart of government.
0:28:36 > 0:28:38Manuel Delia is a blogger and investigative
0:28:38 > 0:28:39journalist.
0:28:39 > 0:28:41He hopes to carry on Daphne's work.
0:28:41 > 0:28:46He's installed extra security in his home.
0:28:46 > 0:28:48The Prime Minister is the front man for the
0:28:48 > 0:28:52promotion and let's be clear, they are selling European passports.
0:28:52 > 0:28:54It's true it has an Maltese coat of arms
0:28:54 > 0:28:55on the front.
0:28:55 > 0:28:57But this gives them freedom of movement, of themselves
0:28:57 > 0:29:04and of their capital throughout Europe.
0:29:04 > 0:29:06It's Republic Day on Malta.
0:29:06 > 0:29:15Ties with Britain, the old colonial power, still linger.
0:29:15 > 0:29:16Prime Minister and passport seller in Chief Joseph
0:29:16 > 0:29:21Muscat reviews the troops.
0:29:22 > 0:29:24Daphne's second target was a group of senior
0:29:24 > 0:29:28government figures, including the Prime Minister's wife Michelle
0:29:28 > 0:29:30Muscat, alleged to be making use of secretive shell
0:29:30 > 0:29:36companies in Panama.
0:29:36 > 0:29:39The Panama Papers scandal revealed that the Prime Minister's Chief of
0:29:39 > 0:29:43Staff, Keith Schembri, and senior minister Konrad Mizzi own shell
0:29:43 > 0:29:48companies in Panama.
0:29:48 > 0:29:52All concerned deny any wrongdoing.
0:29:52 > 0:29:53One senior investigator in the island's
0:29:53 > 0:29:55anti-money-laundering unit was looking into the scandal when he was
0:29:55 > 0:30:00called in to his boss's office.
0:30:00 > 0:30:05This summer you were investigating two of
0:30:05 > 0:30:07the Prime Minister's closest associates and a company widely
0:30:07 > 0:30:09believed to have been owned by his wife.
0:30:09 > 0:30:10What happened to you then?
0:30:10 > 0:30:12They fired me and they fired my colleague.
0:30:12 > 0:30:15Was that a proper thing for the government of Malta to do?
0:30:15 > 0:30:17It is highly unethical and we believe there was political
0:30:17 > 0:30:25interference.
0:30:25 > 0:30:27Were you got at by the Prime Minister's office?
0:30:27 > 0:30:29I don't know by whom but for sure the
0:30:29 > 0:30:38mastermind of this all wants to keep things secret.
0:30:38 > 0:30:40The suspicion is that the secretive shell companies that
0:30:40 > 0:30:43emerged in the Panama Papers could be used to receive bribes.
0:30:43 > 0:30:44Jonathan Ferris believes there is something
0:30:44 > 0:30:46rotten in the state of Malta.
0:30:46 > 0:30:48He's got some police protection but he's
0:30:48 > 0:30:58all too aware of what could happen.
0:31:00 > 0:31:02Following 16th October, what happened to Daphne Caruana
0:31:02 > 0:31:04Galizia, I sat down, I divided my notes and
0:31:04 > 0:31:07my workings and my information into six different envelopes with
0:31:07 > 0:31:09specific notes.
0:31:09 > 0:31:16They are distributed to six members of family, friends
0:31:16 > 0:31:21and close friends, and should something happen to me abruptly,
0:31:21 > 0:31:23let's say I'm killed, all that information
0:31:23 > 0:31:30will go public at once.
0:31:30 > 0:31:33Her third major investigation was into Pilatus Bank, run by
0:31:33 > 0:31:34an Iranian.
0:31:34 > 0:31:37Clients of the bank are believed to include children of Ilham Aliyev
0:31:37 > 0:31:44President of the fabulously corrupt regime of Azerbaijan.
0:31:44 > 0:31:47In her blog, Daphne argued that Malta was fast
0:31:47 > 0:31:49becoming world money-laundering central and she leaked a report by
0:31:49 > 0:31:55Malta's anti-money-laundering agency into the bank.
0:31:55 > 0:31:57The report accused the bank of turning a blind eye to
0:31:57 > 0:32:05proper compliance and highlighted systemic issues of grave concern.
0:32:05 > 0:32:08After Daphne leaked that report, the findings of a second report into
0:32:08 > 0:32:09Pilatus Bank by the anti-money-laundering
0:32:09 > 0:32:14agency emerged.
0:32:14 > 0:32:16That said that its shortcomings no longer subsist.
0:32:16 > 0:32:19The bank, which is housed in this building in the letter, such the
0:32:19 > 0:32:21second report and other evidence to say the
0:32:21 > 0:32:22allegations against it are
0:32:22 > 0:32:24false and baseless, and it complies with all its
0:32:24 > 0:32:30anti-money-laundering obligations.
0:32:30 > 0:32:33Daphne also alleged that a whistle-blower told her that a
0:32:33 > 0:32:35company owned by the Azerbaijan President's daughter paid $1 million
0:32:35 > 0:32:38to a Panama company owned by the Prime Minister's wife, Michelle
0:32:38 > 0:32:46Muscat.
0:32:46 > 0:32:51All concerned deny any wrongdoing.
0:32:51 > 0:32:54But the fear is that Malta is making it too easy for
0:32:54 > 0:33:01dirty money to get into the EU.
0:33:01 > 0:33:02If you have nothing to hide, you don't
0:33:02 > 0:33:04go set up secret accounts in Panama.
0:33:04 > 0:33:08You go to your local Barclays.
0:33:08 > 0:33:10On Malta the rule of law does not seem
0:33:10 > 0:33:17to bite on the Prime Minister and his clique.
0:33:17 > 0:33:20A group of Euro MPs who visited Malta after Daphne's murder
0:33:20 > 0:33:22found there was a perception of impunity on the island.
0:33:22 > 0:33:25Roberta Metsola is a Maltese MEP.
0:33:25 > 0:33:29What we mean by rule of law is that the
0:33:29 > 0:33:31institutions work, that the government
0:33:31 > 0:33:34is at the service of the
0:33:34 > 0:33:36judiciary and not the other way round.
0:33:36 > 0:33:39That when a crime is committed you have to have faith in
0:33:39 > 0:33:41law enforcement so that that crime is investigated and solved.
0:33:41 > 0:33:43That if you break any rule of our criminal
0:33:43 > 0:33:46or civil code then you are prosecuted and you are made to pay
0:33:46 > 0:33:52for what you've done.
0:33:52 > 0:33:54Roberta Metsola says Daphne was aware she
0:33:54 > 0:33:57was getting into treacherous waters.
0:33:57 > 0:33:59She has realised that what she was doing was
0:33:59 > 0:34:01dangerous and I think that
0:34:01 > 0:34:03came to a fateful and unfortunately, and she was right.
0:34:03 > 0:34:05This country will forever be grateful for her work and
0:34:05 > 0:34:13her sense of ignoring her personal security in order to get the truth.
0:34:13 > 0:34:15Daphne's fourth investigation raised questions about the integrity of the
0:34:15 > 0:34:19economics minister Chris Cardona.
0:34:19 > 0:34:22She alleged that Mr Cardona went to a brothel
0:34:22 > 0:34:24whilst at a conference in Germany.
0:34:24 > 0:34:28He sued, saying he was in his hotel room.
0:34:28 > 0:34:30Daphne got a court order to obtain his mobile phone
0:34:30 > 0:34:34records to pinpoint his whereabouts.
0:34:34 > 0:34:37They've yet to be released, but the case continues.
0:34:37 > 0:34:43If Cardona loses, he is finished as a politician and a lawyer.
0:34:43 > 0:34:45Mr Cardona denied any wrongdoing, and declined our request
0:34:45 > 0:34:47for an interview, citing ongoing legal proceedings, including his
0:34:47 > 0:34:55libel action against Daphne Caruana Galizia's estate.
0:34:55 > 0:34:58There's a gang that has taken over the government
0:34:58 > 0:35:00of this country and that gang is concerned with its self-preservation
0:35:00 > 0:35:03and has eroded the power and the authority of institutions that
0:35:03 > 0:35:13should be independent of government.
0:35:27 > 0:35:37Daphne Caruana Galizia shone a light on Malta's dark underworld.
0:35:40 > 0:35:42Her murder, was it proof that she was onto
0:35:42 > 0:35:44something, proof that someone powerful wanted that light
0:35:44 > 0:35:45switched off?
0:35:45 > 0:35:48Was it proof of Malta's shame?
0:35:48 > 0:35:50John Sweeney there.
0:35:50 > 0:35:52Government minister Konrad Mizzi told the BBC that the Panamanian
0:35:52 > 0:35:57company he owned had never traded or had a bank account.
0:35:57 > 0:35:59He said he had properly declared his ownership
0:35:59 > 0:36:04of the company in a ministerial declaration of interests in 2015.
0:36:04 > 0:36:06The Prime Minister's chief of staff Keith Schembri said
0:36:06 > 0:36:11that the Panamanian company owned by him was never used.
0:36:11 > 0:36:14But, he said, "with hindsight, I realise that it was probably not
0:36:14 > 0:36:16the right call, purely based on the fact that perceptions
0:36:16 > 0:36:17matter as well".
0:36:17 > 0:36:20Malta's anti-money laundering agency, the FIAU said that
0:36:20 > 0:36:23Jonathan Ferris's dismissal was based on an objective assessment
0:36:23 > 0:36:33of his performance and did not involve any political interference.
0:36:33 > 0:36:35Well, Malta's Prime Minister Joseph Muscat has given Newsnight
0:36:35 > 0:36:36an interview about all of this.
0:36:36 > 0:36:37John met up with him in Valetta.
0:36:38 > 0:36:39What's been the effect of her assassination
0:36:39 > 0:36:41on your own standing, sir?
0:36:41 > 0:36:43Well, bad, definitely, because that's not something that
0:36:43 > 0:36:47any Prime Minister would want.
0:36:47 > 0:36:52She was a very vociferous critic of many people.
0:36:52 > 0:36:55I might have been the top of that list.
0:36:55 > 0:36:58And this doesn't look good on me.
0:36:58 > 0:37:02I'm very realistic on this.
0:37:02 > 0:37:04Besides her family, I think if there is one
0:37:04 > 0:37:06person that has suffered from
0:37:06 > 0:37:08this assassination it's us, just because this long shadow has been
0:37:08 > 0:37:18cast on us.
0:37:21 > 0:37:23One week after Daphne's assassination where were
0:37:23 > 0:37:24you and what were you doing?
0:37:24 > 0:37:25One week?
0:37:25 > 0:37:26One week.
0:37:26 > 0:37:27The week after.
0:37:27 > 0:37:28I wouldn't know, honestly.
0:37:28 > 0:37:30You were in Dubai, signing passports.
0:37:30 > 0:37:31Oh, right.
0:37:31 > 0:37:32For 650,000 euros.
0:37:32 > 0:37:33I wasn't...
0:37:33 > 0:37:35We don't sell.
0:37:35 > 0:37:42We have, as other European jurisdictions, other
0:37:42 > 0:37:44European countries, systems by which, and programmes,
0:37:44 > 0:37:50and ours is the most transparent and open programme,
0:37:50 > 0:37:52people can invest in our country, can have residence
0:37:52 > 0:37:53and even citizenship.
0:37:53 > 0:37:54Who's buying these passports?
0:37:54 > 0:37:56Well, various people, wealthy people.
0:37:56 > 0:38:00Wealth doesn't buy you the right to citizenship.
0:38:00 > 0:38:01I had some...
0:38:01 > 0:38:04It helps if you've got 650,000 euros, though.
0:38:04 > 0:38:06It helps but it doesn't mean that you would get
0:38:06 > 0:38:08access to our programme.
0:38:08 > 0:38:10The law, though, says that the minister responsible,
0:38:10 > 0:38:12and I believe that's you, the Prime Minister,
0:38:12 > 0:38:16can override a problem.
0:38:16 > 0:38:18For example, if somebody's got a criminal record or is under
0:38:18 > 0:38:20criminal investigation...
0:38:20 > 0:38:24No, the system has never been overridden.
0:38:24 > 0:38:26Tell me about your family's relationship with the first
0:38:26 > 0:38:29family of Azerbaijan.
0:38:29 > 0:38:33Well, I met President Aliyev, I believe, twice in Baku, a number
0:38:33 > 0:38:43of times when we were at the EU Eastern Partnership summits.
0:38:44 > 0:38:50Mrs Aliyev came here once, she met with my wife.
0:38:50 > 0:38:51That's it.
0:38:51 > 0:38:54That's the relationship.
0:38:54 > 0:38:55Nothing more?
0:38:55 > 0:38:57Nothing more.
0:38:57 > 0:39:01Daphne said there was a lot more.
0:39:01 > 0:39:04$1 million.
0:39:04 > 0:39:08Well, you know, I don't think you can hide $1 million.
0:39:08 > 0:39:09I don't think you can hide $100.
0:39:09 > 0:39:10Definitely not in a bank.
0:39:10 > 0:39:13Definitely not anywhere else, you know?
0:39:13 > 0:39:17Does Malta have a problem with money-laundering?
0:39:17 > 0:39:20I don't feel comfortable in saying no, we don't have any problems,
0:39:20 > 0:39:25or yes, we have problems.
0:39:25 > 0:39:32I'd say we have as many problems as any other jurisdiction,
0:39:32 > 0:39:35be it the City of London, be it Luxembourg, the Netherlands,
0:39:35 > 0:39:38when it comes to making sure that we comply with the rules.
0:39:38 > 0:39:41And anyway I don't want to be seen, I know I'm in a quite uncomfortable
0:39:41 > 0:39:44situation having to criticise someone who has been killed
0:39:44 > 0:39:48brutally, but I hope we are not in a situation where in any
0:39:48 > 0:39:50democracy, situations are such where if someone writes
0:39:50 > 0:39:56something on social media, that is stated as fact.
0:39:56 > 0:39:58Although you are doing exactly that, aren't you?
0:39:58 > 0:40:01She was killed brutally and you're saying that at least some
0:40:01 > 0:40:03of the time she was writing gossip.
0:40:03 > 0:40:04Yes.
0:40:04 > 0:40:05She had evidence.
0:40:05 > 0:40:06You don't agree with it.
0:40:06 > 0:40:07You don't think it's right.
0:40:07 > 0:40:08But she did have evidence.
0:40:08 > 0:40:10She's got a whistle-blower...
0:40:10 > 0:40:14No, I totally disagree because I read exactly what she said.
0:40:14 > 0:40:17So, first of all there isn't a shred, not only of proof
0:40:17 > 0:40:24but of truth in what she said, all of this.
0:40:24 > 0:40:26She based herself on a person calling herself a whistle-blower
0:40:26 > 0:40:28and the account of this whistle-blower was dubious,
0:40:28 > 0:40:32to say the least.
0:40:32 > 0:40:36What I am saying is that not only if there is evidence,
0:40:36 > 0:40:41if there is even the whiff of any evidence I would resign on the spot.
0:40:41 > 0:40:44And yes, I'm sorry, the issue with Mrs Caruana Galizia
0:40:44 > 0:40:49is that she has said things that were facts, she wrote stories that
0:40:49 > 0:40:52were cutting edge but then these were coupled with things
0:40:52 > 0:40:56that were false.
0:40:56 > 0:40:59Now, I don't know that whether she knew what she was saying
0:40:59 > 0:41:02against me or about me was false, whether she was part of this
0:41:02 > 0:41:07invention, or whether she was fed the story by this whistle-blower,
0:41:07 > 0:41:13or someone else, and maybe it looked too true, too good not to be true,
0:41:13 > 0:41:16let's put it that way, because it fitted the narrative that
0:41:16 > 0:41:19some people wanted to put in.
0:41:19 > 0:41:24The charge in a nutshell is that you're the artful dodger of Europe.
0:41:24 > 0:41:30Well, if that is the charge I'm definitely not guilty of that.
0:41:30 > 0:41:36I think it's, you know, preposterous.
0:41:36 > 0:41:39I do believe that our success story as a country might not go
0:41:39 > 0:41:43down well with others.
0:41:43 > 0:41:51But it is a success story that will continue for a long time.
0:41:51 > 0:41:52After Daphne Caruana Galizia's assassination,
0:41:52 > 0:41:59her son Matthew wrote,
0:41:59 > 0:42:01if institutions were already working, there would
0:42:01 > 0:42:01be no assassinations
0:42:01 > 0:42:04to investigate and my brothers and I, we'd still have a mother.
0:42:04 > 0:42:06What do you say to that?
0:42:06 > 0:42:10Well, I have made it very clear that I would never take issue with...
0:42:10 > 0:42:20People who have lost their mother in such a brutal assassination.
0:42:20 > 0:42:23I've said myself that if my mother was killed in such instances
0:42:23 > 0:42:25I would say much worse things than that.
0:42:25 > 0:42:26Prime Minister, thank you.
0:42:26 > 0:42:27Thank you very much.
0:42:27 > 0:42:28Thank you.
0:42:28 > 0:42:32Thank you.
0:42:32 > 0:42:39John Sweetie talking to the premise to Malta. It will be me back here
0:42:39 > 0:42:46tomorrow, in the meantime, good night.