0:00:04 > 0:00:06Cameron tried hugging huskies.
0:00:06 > 0:00:08May has a plan for plastic.
0:00:08 > 0:00:10Ahead of the release of their 25-year environmental plan
0:00:10 > 0:00:14we ask, can the blues really go green?
0:00:14 > 0:00:22Or will environmental activism always belong to the left?
0:00:24 > 0:00:28I'm in the heart of the Chilterns, the beautiful rolling hills on the
0:00:28 > 0:00:32outskirts of London which lies at the heart of the government's
0:00:32 > 0:00:35dilemma of protecting the environment while promoting economic
0:00:35 > 0:00:37growth.
0:00:37 > 0:00:39We speak to Stanley Johnson and Caroline Lucas.
0:00:39 > 0:00:42The hunger to know what voters think has never been stronger or more
0:00:42 > 0:00:48vital for the modern politician.
0:00:48 > 0:00:51We went to Essex to find out their views.
0:00:51 > 0:01:00Kids are not respectable to adults. They say, who are you talking to?
0:01:00 > 0:01:04They have no respect for the teacher, no respect at all.
0:01:04 > 0:01:07What do voters tell you about their real concerns
0:01:07 > 0:01:09when they know it will never been traced back to them?
0:01:09 > 0:01:11And, it's two years since David Bowie died.
0:01:11 > 0:01:13Stephen Smith has been talking to his personal photographer
0:01:13 > 0:01:20who went on tour with him in the '80s.
0:01:22 > 0:01:29I could do a book of David laughing. You mean shots of him roaring away?
0:01:29 > 0:01:34Gas, he laughed on stage because he did not have to play the thin White
0:01:34 > 0:01:40Duke or Ziggy Stardust any more but he laughed all the time offstage as
0:01:40 > 0:01:46well. He wanted to spend his time having fun.
0:01:46 > 0:01:48Good evening.
0:01:48 > 0:01:51Environmentalism has all the hallmarks of a left wing cause -
0:01:51 > 0:01:53the enlightened vanguard, the fight against big corporations,
0:01:53 > 0:01:57the endless virtue signalling and the youthful warrior.
0:01:57 > 0:02:01Which makes it a hard cause for Conservatives to espouse.
0:02:01 > 0:02:03Those on the right will tell you it's about calmer things:
0:02:03 > 0:02:07conservation, safeguarding resources, equilibrium.
0:02:07 > 0:02:09But the battle to convince voters that Conservatives are the natural
0:02:09 > 0:02:14champions of green issues will be an uphill one.
0:02:14 > 0:02:16It starts tomorrow when the government releases
0:02:16 > 0:02:18its 25-year plan on the environment.
0:02:18 > 0:02:22It includes a plan to eliminate all avoidable plastic waste
0:02:22 > 0:02:26by the end of 2042 - by which time the Prime Minister would be -
0:02:26 > 0:02:29excuse the detail - 86 years old.
0:02:29 > 0:02:31Is there anything more radical?
0:02:31 > 0:02:33We will find that out tomorrow.
0:02:33 > 0:02:35Will it really stand a chance of making anyone think
0:02:35 > 0:02:38this is a subject close to the Tory heart?
0:02:38 > 0:02:40We will debate in a moment with Stanley Johnson,
0:02:40 > 0:02:42whose latest encounter with all things green
0:02:42 > 0:02:44was in the Australian jungle.
0:02:44 > 0:02:46He's also written extensively on the environment.
0:02:46 > 0:02:49And Caroline Lucas, Britain's only Green MP.
0:02:49 > 0:02:56First, Nick Watt.
0:02:56 > 0:03:05Ugly. Terrifying. And with heart-rending results. Our oceans
0:03:05 > 0:03:13are being menaced by the modern disposable consumer age.Plastic,
0:03:13 > 0:03:19now every year we dump around 8 million tonnes of it into the sea.
0:03:19 > 0:03:24The blight of plastic waste will be condemned tomorrow by Theresa May as
0:03:24 > 0:03:30one of the great environmental scourges of our time. An unlikely
0:03:30 > 0:03:35coalition of the voice of middling woodland and environmental activists
0:03:35 > 0:03:40have helped inspire the central element of the government's 25 year
0:03:40 > 0:03:44plan for the environment. No doubt with an eye on winning over younger
0:03:44 > 0:03:51voters, Theresa May will pledge to eliminate all avoidable plastic
0:03:51 > 0:03:56waste by 2042. Urge supermarkets to introduce plastic free aisles with
0:03:56 > 0:04:00loose food on display. Extend the 5p charge for carrier bags in England
0:04:00 > 0:04:07to all retailers. Increase funding for plastics innovation to improve
0:04:07 > 0:04:15recycling. And use UK aid to help developing nations reduce pollution
0:04:15 > 0:04:23and tackle waste. Use of the land will also be tackled in the speech
0:04:23 > 0:04:27as Theresa May highlights the creation of a New Forest in the
0:04:27 > 0:04:30North of England. The prime list will also talk about how people can
0:04:30 > 0:04:35be better connected with the environment. I am in the Chilterns,
0:04:35 > 0:04:38beautiful rolling hills on the outskirts of London, which like the
0:04:38 > 0:04:43heart of the government's dilemma of protecting the environment while
0:04:43 > 0:04:48promoting economic growth. Behind me is Chequers, the Prime Minister's
0:04:48 > 0:04:52official country residence, which she uses for walks in this area.
0:04:52 > 0:05:03Over there and that Hill is the planned HS2 high-speed rail link to
0:05:03 > 0:05:05the north of England which has been fiercely resisted by residents here,
0:05:05 > 0:05:08who say it threatens this area of outstanding natural beauty. The
0:05:08 > 0:05:13tensions between the economy and an arm and was put to the Prime
0:05:13 > 0:05:18Minister in the Commons today by the Chilterns MP -- the economy and the
0:05:18 > 0:05:22environment. It is an issue felt keenly by this local farmer who also
0:05:22 > 0:05:27complained that mixed messages down the decades from Whitehall.It is
0:05:27 > 0:05:35definitely a dilemma and it has been a going on for generations. Back in
0:05:35 > 0:05:39the 1960s it was government policy to pull hedges out while since the
0:05:39 > 0:05:431970s it has been policy to plant hedges. It was never a farmer's idea
0:05:43 > 0:05:47to pull them out, it was a government policy and we were told
0:05:47 > 0:05:51to do it. Decisions need to be made with good sound information and
0:05:51 > 0:05:56knowledge and not on the whim as it were.The central challenge for
0:05:56 > 0:06:05Theresa May in this speech is to reclaim the environment
0:06:05 > 0:06:07reclaim the environment for the Tories, who admit they have had a
0:06:07 > 0:06:09mixed message in recent decades in promoting their green credentials.
0:06:09 > 0:06:13But the Prime Minister will say that conserving resources lies at the
0:06:13 > 0:06:19heart of Conservative principles. Preserving finances to assure debt
0:06:19 > 0:06:23is not passed on to future generations, and preserving natural
0:06:23 > 0:06:28resources to ensure this generation leaves the planet in a better
0:06:28 > 0:06:34condition for future generations. This is about reusing, recycling and
0:06:34 > 0:06:38minimising the amount of natural resources we are using. It comes
0:06:38 > 0:06:43down to fundamental conservative philosophy, one that attracted me to
0:06:43 > 0:06:46the Conservative Party initially stewardship. It is about doing stuff
0:06:46 > 0:06:49today that we in our lifetime may never see the benefit of, but others
0:06:49 > 0:06:56will. It is that long-term view. That is why I like the idea that
0:06:56 > 0:06:59this generation for the first time leaves the state of the environment
0:06:59 > 0:07:05in a better state than that which we founded.The problem is that it
0:07:05 > 0:07:09often comes far too late and they will spend a long time pooh-poohing
0:07:09 > 0:07:12the science about whether the destruction of the environment is
0:07:12 > 0:07:16happening a lot and often they are act after public opinion has finally
0:07:16 > 0:07:20swayed and indeed after the environment or damage has already
0:07:20 > 0:07:23happened. If the Conservative Party really wants to earn some green
0:07:23 > 0:07:27credentials, it has to be a lot more proactive about tackling these
0:07:27 > 0:07:32issues and for the environmental damage occurs.
0:07:32 > 0:07:37In rural areas, life can sometimes move at a sedate pace, but the
0:07:37 > 0:07:42passions stirred on how to protect our environment only become more
0:07:42 > 0:07:43heated with time.
0:07:43 > 0:07:44Nick Watt reporting.
0:07:44 > 0:07:47Well, I'm now joined by two of the leading lights
0:07:47 > 0:07:48of the environmental movement.
0:07:48 > 0:07:50Stanley Johnson is a former Conservative MEP and has been
0:07:50 > 0:07:52an environmental campaigner for over 50 years.
0:07:52 > 0:07:54Caroline Lucas is co-leader of the Green Party
0:07:54 > 0:07:56and the party's only MP.
0:07:56 > 0:08:00Very nice to have you both here. Caroline, is there anything from
0:08:00 > 0:08:07what you have seen so far that you would disagree with? Action on
0:08:07 > 0:08:09plastics, new trees, farmers subsidies based on what they give
0:08:09 > 0:08:13back, there is very little that you disagree with I am assuming?There
0:08:13 > 0:08:17is little I disagree with so far. The devil will be in the detail and
0:08:17 > 0:08:22whether there is legislative weight behind the proposals. What we need
0:08:22 > 0:08:25to see in the plan tomorrow is a real commitment to an environment
0:08:25 > 0:08:30act which is the thing that would make sure all these aspirations are
0:08:30 > 0:08:35properly turned into policy. Don't forget, we have been here before
0:08:35 > 0:08:38with the Conservatives adopting a nice green sheen. We had David
0:08:38 > 0:08:46Cameron hugging his Huskies but when he was in office he went from
0:08:46 > 0:08:48hugging huskies to culling badgers. We know there is a detoxification
0:08:48 > 0:08:52process going on here. We know the Tories have had some polling which
0:08:52 > 0:08:55tells them they need to more compassionate. This is a way to do
0:08:55 > 0:08:59that. If they are really serious there are two things they need to
0:08:59 > 0:09:04look for. One is the environment act with proper targets, timetables and
0:09:04 > 0:09:08legislative weight, and the other is to make sure there is action on
0:09:08 > 0:09:12climate change as well. You can talk about plastic as much as you like
0:09:12 > 0:09:17and plastic is a serious
0:09:26 > 0:09:28problem to marine animals, but if you're really serious about the
0:09:28 > 0:09:30health of the oceans, it is climate change which is warming the oceans,
0:09:30 > 0:09:33leaching our corals which is causing mammals to die. The problem is the
0:09:33 > 0:09:35Tories look at the environment in a compartmentalised way. Next week we
0:09:35 > 0:09:38may be talking about a whole new fracking industry the government
0:09:38 > 0:09:40wants to unleash. If they do that, it will completely undermine their
0:09:40 > 0:09:46plan.Stanley, it does look very ambitious. In 25 years Theresa May
0:09:46 > 0:09:53will not be held to account.2042 is a long, long way away. I think we
0:09:53 > 0:09:58have to assume we get quite a lot of action much before that. On the
0:09:58 > 0:10:01plastics front it is good she is doing that. I think it is vital that
0:10:01 > 0:10:07she takes the comments with you.How can it be good to say we will get
0:10:07 > 0:10:15rid of that in 25 years?I think we have to take a very advanced view.
0:10:15 > 0:10:20So she is not doing enough on plastics?At the moment we are doing
0:10:20 > 0:10:26plastic bags. She is planning to have now a consultation on single
0:10:26 > 0:10:30use plastic bottles. Tremendously important. I take Caroline's point.
0:10:30 > 0:10:38This is not necessarily a left right issue. The Conservatives honestly,
0:10:38 > 0:10:41in 1969, I was the Conservative officer on the environment. We did
0:10:41 > 0:10:47take it seriously and by the way, we won the election in 1970, so I think
0:10:47 > 0:10:51they were right.That you agree you cannot divorce climate change
0:10:51 > 0:10:56fracking from what you are trying to do for 25 years on pollution?The
0:10:56 > 0:11:00problem is every time Caroline and I meet together we agree with each
0:11:00 > 0:11:10other.You agree with me.Do you think his politics are a barrier to
0:11:10 > 0:11:12helping the environment, or do you think Stanley Johnson and the
0:11:12 > 0:11:15Conservative Party can solve it? Stanley has a real reputation for
0:11:15 > 0:11:19having done excellent work on the environment in the past. Where I
0:11:19 > 0:11:24would disagree now is he has done this extraordinary U-turn on this
0:11:24 > 0:11:28position on Brexit. He used to be alongside me, he set up
0:11:28 > 0:11:32environmentalist for Europe, he is now adopting Brexit. If he does this
0:11:32 > 0:11:38it will massively undermined the environment.Hold on, what I am
0:11:38 > 0:11:43assuming tomorrow in this speech that Mrs May will make, I think part
0:11:43 > 0:11:48of the environment plan is to take over into EU law the whole raft of
0:11:48 > 0:11:51EU environmental legislation. And I think she's going to say that she
0:11:51 > 0:11:57will have an enforcement agency to do what the commissioner and ECJ...
0:11:57 > 0:12:03We had a chance to vote on that. I put an amendment and it was not
0:12:03 > 0:12:07voted on.We started talking about the ideology of the environment and
0:12:07 > 0:12:11who had a right to it? Would you agree that the biggest friend to the
0:12:11 > 0:12:15environment is the Daily Mail. They did all the work against microbeads,
0:12:15 > 0:12:22the plastic bag tax, sea pollution. This is tomorrow's headline. They
0:12:22 > 0:12:25have done more to help the cause arguably than the Greens have.You
0:12:25 > 0:12:30are going at too far. I take your point that they do some are good
0:12:30 > 0:12:36consumer campaigns.But you have to go to the middle ground.You have to
0:12:36 > 0:12:40do both. You have to get people aboard with understandable specific
0:12:40 > 0:12:44campaigns but you have to address the structural difficulties as well.
0:12:44 > 0:12:47For as long as the Daily Mail and the Conservatives are promoting more
0:12:47 > 0:12:51and more of the same kind of economic growth, we will not have
0:12:51 > 0:12:57the systemic change we need. We have to change the way we do business.If
0:12:57 > 0:13:00the Conservatives had to choose between economic growth and environ
0:13:00 > 0:13:04mental concerns, you know economic growth would always come first?One
0:13:04 > 0:13:08of the problems in this whole area is one of the reasons we are forcing
0:13:08 > 0:13:11ourselves down the economic growth through it if they constantly
0:13:11 > 0:13:15expanding population of this country and you cannot ignore that. We are
0:13:15 > 0:13:19going up to 70 million with 80 million in prospect. We should aim
0:13:19 > 0:13:23for stability as far as pollution is concerned and stability as far as
0:13:23 > 0:13:28economic growth is concerned. Years ago I wrote that and I think it
0:13:28 > 0:13:34needs to happen.But we need to look at some practical things right now.
0:13:34 > 0:13:40HS2, when push comes to shove, when economic gains put on one side and
0:13:40 > 0:13:46the environment on the other, it is the economy which always wins out.
0:13:46 > 0:13:53There is something that planting more trees, that is great. HS2 will
0:13:53 > 0:13:57threaten 35 agent woodlands. There is no joined up thinking.I think
0:13:57 > 0:14:07one of my sons is responsible for HS2.Have a word with him.We can
0:14:07 > 0:14:11take a leading role internationally, forests, plastic pollution, climate
0:14:11 > 0:14:17change and I would put in wildlife, biodiversity. Crucial areas.Thank
0:14:17 > 0:14:19you both very much.
0:14:19 > 0:14:21How well do politicians know the electorate?
0:14:21 > 0:14:23And do voters really speak their minds when asked
0:14:23 > 0:14:24about their concerns?
0:14:24 > 0:14:26To get a better understanding of peoples worries and insecurities
0:14:26 > 0:14:29one think tank, Demos, tried to take the pulse
0:14:29 > 0:14:31of people in England - paying particular attention to white
0:14:31 > 0:14:34over fifties voters - in areas that have undergone
0:14:34 > 0:14:35the most significant cultural and economic dislocation
0:14:35 > 0:14:37over the past three decades.
0:14:37 > 0:14:40Instead of asking responders to tick boxes, it took down
0:14:40 > 0:14:43quotes and comments, word for word - inviting people
0:14:43 > 0:14:46to answer honestly and anonymously without fear of what some called
0:14:46 > 0:14:48'the need for political correctness'.
0:14:48 > 0:14:56We'll ask if their words represent legitimate economic grievance,
0:14:58 > 0:15:00wistful nostalgia or a failure to engage with modern Britain
0:15:00 > 0:15:02in a moment.
0:15:02 > 0:15:04First, John Sweeney has been gauging reaction to the report's content
0:15:04 > 0:15:12on Canvey Island in Essex.
0:15:15 > 0:15:18Where better to discuss the latest trends in British society than on
0:15:18 > 0:15:24the Riviera, the Essex Riviera, that is, and nowhere more lovely than
0:15:24 > 0:15:33Canvey Island? So, this think tank called Demos which is full of lardy
0:15:33 > 0:15:37Dar types has had a go at people like me, white and over 55, you
0:15:37 > 0:15:42could call us pale and stale if not necessarily male. Our views are a
0:15:42 > 0:15:47mixed bag, some of them perhaps a bit too miserable worrying about the
0:15:47 > 0:15:51decline of Christianity, worrying about do-gooders. On the other hand,
0:15:51 > 0:15:54what's wrong with thinking about family? What's wrong with believing
0:15:54 > 0:16:01that you should respect people?We moved out of London into housing,
0:16:01 > 0:16:05council housing from the old Kent Road.They have known each other
0:16:05 > 0:16:09virtually their entire adult lives. By the way, I use sisters or just
0:16:09 > 0:16:14mates?Friends for the last 50 years.50 years, when did you meet?
0:16:14 > 0:16:21We met when I was waitressing in a nightclub.I was about 18 when we
0:16:21 > 0:16:25met in London because we lived in London.Was life better then?
0:16:25 > 0:16:35Easier.Yeah. I think it was easier, your husband went to work. I just
0:16:35 > 0:16:39think it was easier.I don't think you wanted for much, your main thing
0:16:39 > 0:16:43in life was that you had a roof over your head and your kids were at
0:16:43 > 0:16:47school and had a job when they came out of school. That was the main
0:16:47 > 0:16:51thing then.The Demos report quoted dozens of people across the country.
0:16:51 > 0:16:55Here is one. What were you respectful of them that you see kids
0:16:55 > 0:17:00are not respectful of now?Things get handed... If you are sitting
0:17:00 > 0:17:06around the table, which we do, and use it all round the table, you have
0:17:06 > 0:17:10not just got the adults around the table, you've got the children as
0:17:10 > 0:17:19well, so you are kind of passing on knowledge, respect...And love.
0:17:19 > 0:17:25Caring about one another and showing them which way to go.
0:17:25 > 0:17:32Sitting on this bench dedicated to his late wife we came across Brian.
0:17:32 > 0:17:41Too many do-gooders, our group think that. Do you think that?I'm not
0:17:41 > 0:17:50sure on that one about do-gooders. I don't meet many in my life. I meet a
0:17:50 > 0:17:59lot of people who are helpful in many ways, you know, in terms of the
0:17:59 > 0:18:03friendship I've had through what's happened to me. I've had some very
0:18:03 > 0:18:08good friends. Would you call them do-gooders? I don't think so.You
0:18:08 > 0:18:12can't go to Canvey Island without going down the booze. The survey
0:18:12 > 0:18:17said older whites were not great at naming politicians. True?Neymar
0:18:17 > 0:18:25politician? Margaret Thatcher.She's dead, Neymar living one.Are any of
0:18:25 > 0:18:37them living? -- name a politician. Steve?Theresa May.You are the
0:18:37 > 0:18:44intellectual, name another one.Tony Blair, David Cameron.UL listing
0:18:44 > 0:18:48half of the Cabinet, well, Theresa May is in it the others are out --
0:18:48 > 0:18:51you are listing. Why are your grandkids less optimistic about
0:18:51 > 0:18:58their future is then you were at their age?One thing comes down to
0:18:58 > 0:19:01the immigration. Parellis jobs for our kids anymore. That's what I see
0:19:01 > 0:19:08anyway. -- there are less jobs.What about buying a house?The same
0:19:08 > 0:19:17thing.Are people more respectful of parity now all before?They are less
0:19:17 > 0:19:19respectful of authority, since they took the cane away at school,
0:19:19 > 0:19:24teachers are not allowed to punish children. Parents now seem to let
0:19:24 > 0:19:29their kids get away with anything. Years ago I had more respect for my
0:19:29 > 0:19:33parents. I got up to loads of skulduggery but I never took it
0:19:33 > 0:19:38home, it never went to my door. I had more respect for my mum and dad,
0:19:38 > 0:19:41whereas the kids nowadays don't seem to care, they have no respect for
0:19:41 > 0:19:46anything.As far as capturing the views of Canvey Island was
0:19:46 > 0:19:52concerned, the survey was spot on. John Sweeney there.
0:19:52 > 0:19:55We're joined by Sophie Gaston who is the Acting Director
0:19:55 > 0:19:57of the Demos think tank which is behind today's report.
0:19:57 > 0:20:00Also with us is Danny Lockwood, the publisher of The Press
0:20:00 > 0:20:04newspaper, which covers Dewsbury and Batley in West Yorkshiure
0:20:04 > 0:20:06newspaper, which covers Dewsbury and Batley in West Yorkshire,
0:20:06 > 0:20:08and Areeq Chowdhury who is the Chief Executive
0:20:08 > 0:20:10of WebRoots Democracy, a digital democracy organisation.
0:20:10 > 0:20:13Lovely to have you here. If I can start with you, Sophie, from what
0:20:13 > 0:20:16you've heard from Canvey Island today, does that reflect the sort of
0:20:16 > 0:20:20voices you are putting together in that report?Absolutely. The key
0:20:20 > 0:20:24theme that came out of all of the focus groups we did was a sense that
0:20:24 > 0:20:27Britain is fundamentally on the wrong track and that people have
0:20:27 > 0:20:32really utterly lost faith in the capacity of politicians to shape and
0:20:32 > 0:20:37improve their lives. For people to day life feel stressful, it feels
0:20:37 > 0:20:43precarious, and a real sense of mourning around things that have
0:20:43 > 0:20:47been lost.Danny, I'm going to come to you, this idea of the wrong
0:20:47 > 0:20:52track. If we could pull up these quotes, these are verbatim quotes,
0:20:52 > 0:20:57they don't necessarily all read very obviously but let's just pull up one
0:20:57 > 0:21:01of those quotes now. There are too many do-gooders around. We saw a bit
0:21:01 > 0:21:04of that in the film, didn't we? To tell you what you can't do rather
0:21:04 > 0:21:10than tell you what you can do. What does that say to you?That speaks to
0:21:10 > 0:21:16me right off the top of the nanny state really. But it all lies within
0:21:16 > 0:21:20this political correctness that is also kind of invading every element
0:21:20 > 0:21:22of life. I'm not surprised old people feel as though they are
0:21:22 > 0:21:26getting blamed for getting old, they have sustained the NHS for years but
0:21:26 > 0:21:30they suddenly feel they are a burden on it. And I think when they are
0:21:30 > 0:21:37used to having a sense of community and a place in life, they disappear.
0:21:37 > 0:21:41When you say political correctness, what does that mean?I can only go
0:21:41 > 0:21:45to my experience and say we have seen radical socioeconomic cultural
0:21:45 > 0:21:50shifts in our town and community has gone and it's been replaced by, if
0:21:50 > 0:21:54you like, the diktats of whether it is political or judicial or local
0:21:54 > 0:22:04authority, an administration that seems to elevate, real or imagined
0:22:04 > 0:22:07minorities, its values and rights above there is. I think they have
0:22:07 > 0:22:10been told, and they are sick of being told, that their values and
0:22:10 > 0:22:16their traditions and their cultural heritage is worthless.Areeq, do you
0:22:16 > 0:22:23recognise that as being a corrosive element?I wish we lived in a
0:22:23 > 0:22:26politically correct society to don't think we did I believe political
0:22:26 > 0:22:29correctness as having basic respect for one another. We need to talk
0:22:29 > 0:22:34about this as political correctness gone mad and it just needs to be
0:22:34 > 0:22:37political correctness. I read in the report that some people were talking
0:22:37 > 0:22:40about how we are not really a Christian country anymore. I wish we
0:22:40 > 0:22:45lived in a country that practised Christian values, love thy
0:22:45 > 0:22:51neighbour, do unto others as you would have them do to you. That's
0:22:51 > 0:22:54what political correctness is about. Political correctness, when you boil
0:22:54 > 0:22:59it down, is about freedom of speech. Personally, I think freedom of
0:22:59 > 0:23:03speech doesn't mean that you can simply say whatever the EXPLETIVE
0:23:03 > 0:23:07you want about something without there being consequences.While we
0:23:07 > 0:23:11talk about the freedom of speech I must apologise to our viewers.That
0:23:11 > 0:23:15perfectly illustrates my point I say something and there is a consequence
0:23:15 > 0:23:18and my reason for saying that is people are annoyed about political
0:23:18 > 0:23:22correctness, but what it's about as you are free to say what you like in
0:23:22 > 0:23:26a society.Isn't that the point that these people don't feel they have a
0:23:26 > 0:23:30voice.You can any newspaper in society and that is freedom of
0:23:30 > 0:23:33speech but if you see something I deemed to be racist or bigoted I am
0:23:33 > 0:23:39free to call you out on that, that's the consequence, I can call out
0:23:39 > 0:23:44sexism, homophobia, Islamophobia... It is deeper than that, that is kind
0:23:44 > 0:23:47of almost an intellectual examination of it. These people are
0:23:47 > 0:23:50talking about their real lives, their real experiences, about their
0:23:50 > 0:23:54community is being broken up, about the landscape that their families
0:23:54 > 0:23:58have known for generations and generations being supplanted.There
0:23:58 > 0:24:01are changes throughout history. There is no monopoly on British
0:24:01 > 0:24:07society.In this country in a period of time that we are witnessing,
0:24:07 > 0:24:10these people are bearing witness to it, they have a right to be affected
0:24:10 > 0:24:14by it and feel like they are not represented.I don't want to break
0:24:14 > 0:24:17up the conversation but I want to bring up the next quote, this is
0:24:17 > 0:24:23about cultural identity. If we can just pull this one up, which says my
0:24:23 > 0:24:26husband's got a van and it's got an English flag and he actually got
0:24:26 > 0:24:32pulled up the other day by somebody and they said, why have you got an
0:24:32 > 0:24:36English flag on your van? I'm reading the rest of it here. Sophie,
0:24:36 > 0:24:39to bring you in, is this part of a bigger conversation about the flag
0:24:39 > 0:24:45and about patriotism over jingoism, or discomfort with that? What did
0:24:45 > 0:24:49you hear?There was a huge amount of discussion about English cultural
0:24:49 > 0:24:54and national identity and it wasn't just a flag, it was also St George's
0:24:54 > 0:24:59Day, all of these different things, and I think lots of citizens were
0:24:59 > 0:25:02telling us that we feel that the political classes have branded these
0:25:02 > 0:25:07as somehow racist, or a symbol of intolerance, or exclusion, and then
0:25:07 > 0:25:12they are thinking, hang on, we have to constantly adapt and welcome all
0:25:12 > 0:25:16these other nationalities, and what we start to see here is cultural
0:25:16 > 0:25:21pluralism creating this kind of zero-sum game.Let me start on this
0:25:21 > 0:25:27one then if I can with you, Areeq. Do you find the St George's flag
0:25:27 > 0:25:33makes you uncomfortable?It depends who is waving it. It has not been
0:25:33 > 0:25:37made racist, by the way, by immigrants or politicians, it's been
0:25:37 > 0:25:42made racist by the likes of the EDL and BMP. That's because those are
0:25:42 > 0:25:45racist organisations that use that flag as their brand and when it
0:25:45 > 0:25:50comes to what you see on TV, apart from the World Cup, you will see the
0:25:50 > 0:25:55England fired at an EDL demonstration on the news -- BMP.I
0:25:55 > 0:25:58have a real problem with that because I think this is a real
0:25:58 > 0:26:02symbol branded by people like Emily Thornberry, when she ridiculed and
0:26:02 > 0:26:10England football supporter in 2014...
0:26:10 > 0:26:17Her career has not suffered for it, has it?She apologised for it.It is
0:26:17 > 0:26:20a symbol of the wider problem that where we have schools now with the
0:26:20 > 0:26:26educational establishment is brainwashing our kids that this
0:26:26 > 0:26:31isn't a country that you can be very proud of.No school is brainwashing
0:26:31 > 0:26:35their kids...Would you feel able to put a flag up in the window?In my
0:26:35 > 0:26:40case it would be a Yorkshire flag. I wouldn't have a problem about that.
0:26:40 > 0:26:45I'm proud of my county, my country, and the United Kingdom.You don't
0:26:45 > 0:26:50feel that part has been shut down?I would do it just the awkward but I
0:26:50 > 0:26:55would know there be people... They would be people passing judgment on
0:26:55 > 0:27:00me because I was showing a symbol of patriotism. I find that that really
0:27:00 > 0:27:04is horrific.You should address the issue, which is people have taken
0:27:04 > 0:27:09that flag and turned it into meaning something, to some people it means
0:27:09 > 0:27:13racism, that's the real issue, whereas in society we see people
0:27:13 > 0:27:16twisting that into these immigrants are coming here at changing our
0:27:16 > 0:27:21culture identity but that is not true.I'm going to bring in another
0:27:21 > 0:27:24quote now, about immigration. I will start with Sophie to put this into
0:27:24 > 0:27:30context for us. The immigrants that got in now, they are not working, or
0:27:30 > 0:27:33they are working for their money and sending it off. Does that fit into
0:27:33 > 0:27:40the kind of quotes and feedback you were getting?Absolutely. We saw
0:27:40 > 0:27:44very few expressions of overt racial prejudice in these focus groups,
0:27:44 > 0:27:49even when a space was created, save space, for people to express those
0:27:49 > 0:27:53views. There just wasn't that kind of feeling. But what there was was a
0:27:53 > 0:27:58very strong expression of what I would call welfare chauvinism. The
0:27:58 > 0:28:01idea that some people should have access to our social state and
0:28:01 > 0:28:06others shouldn't and the people who have the access, it should be owned
0:28:06 > 0:28:11by their social and economic contribution.Danny.I enjoyed this
0:28:11 > 0:28:14report because it felt like Sophie was listening to me and my buddies
0:28:14 > 0:28:19at the bar in the pub. But on this one I don't think anything like this
0:28:19 > 0:28:24risks presenting cliches and stereotypes, and I kind of see that
0:28:24 > 0:28:27as one of those. What came out of the report that I really liked was
0:28:27 > 0:28:31the fairness that was identified quite broadly among people.Do you
0:28:31 > 0:28:35think that is not fair, do you hear that quote and think it is not fair?
0:28:35 > 0:28:38I can see why that would grab a headline and be picked out but I
0:28:38 > 0:28:43don't think the report says that's even typical. I realised a finding
0:28:43 > 0:28:48that these people from a specific demographic who are not overtly
0:28:48 > 0:28:51racist, and I do think that fairness and get on with it attitude that
0:28:51 > 0:28:55shone through in the report is absolutely the generation of people
0:28:55 > 0:28:59that I still respect.When you hear the immigration argument, do you
0:28:59 > 0:29:07think it is about race, or do you think it can be about you can --
0:29:07 > 0:29:14economic chauvinism?I think it is racist. When it comes to this, this
0:29:14 > 0:29:20is a caricature of what Britain is like. People are sold an idea,
0:29:20 > 0:29:24normally through the media, about immigrants coming here taking jobs
0:29:24 > 0:29:28and housing at the reality is completely different. Lots of
0:29:28 > 0:29:32immigrants work hard and are doing jobs. My whole family are working in
0:29:32 > 0:29:37the NHS and my brother is a junior doctor. The other point about this
0:29:37 > 0:29:42that we cannot cover in this segment, I find the irony of Britain
0:29:42 > 0:29:46being annoyed about people coming to their country and taking their
0:29:46 > 0:29:49resources when the richness of this country is built on centuries of the
0:29:49 > 0:29:54British Empire going to other countries and ignoring borders,
0:29:54 > 0:29:57ignoring people, taking money.There we go, let's drag up 250 years of
0:29:57 > 0:30:03Empire.Why should we?And beat the people who I think made this country
0:30:03 > 0:30:08great.The British Empire?The very welcoming and safe place on the
0:30:08 > 0:30:12whole for migrants.The British Empire that killed millions of
0:30:12 > 0:30:16people.We will all go back and apologise for everything all the way
0:30:16 > 0:30:22back.This is a key part. You cannot just ignore. If you want to be
0:30:22 > 0:30:26magician is now the culture identity.Are we talking about
0:30:26 > 0:30:28politicians trying to re-engage with a whole swathe of the country that
0:30:28 > 0:30:33has disengaged and thinks all politicians are self-serving liars?
0:30:33 > 0:30:36That's what this report tells us. I actually think the politicians are
0:30:36 > 0:30:41missing a trick.
0:30:41 > 0:30:47What to do politicians do with this now? You can hear clear divide
0:30:47 > 0:30:53between how people perceive the same sort of grievances or injustices. If
0:30:53 > 0:31:00you were a politician saying how do we make them both happy?What was
0:31:00 > 0:31:05really striking for me is there was a lot of conversation around
0:31:05 > 0:31:09intergenerational warfare between the young and the old, this primary
0:31:09 > 0:31:15skills in our society. I think what this shows is even amongst the older
0:31:15 > 0:31:18generation, there are very clear conflicts here. There are the people
0:31:18 > 0:31:23who are sort of willing, if not enthusiastic about embracing change
0:31:23 > 0:31:27and handing over to the next generation, and then there are the
0:31:27 > 0:31:31people who continue to see themselves as the dominant and
0:31:31 > 0:31:35authentic voice of British values in the heart of Britain and are very
0:31:35 > 0:31:40actively resistant to change. I think it is the political decisions
0:31:40 > 0:31:44about whether to favour or to try and reconcile these two or to take
0:31:44 > 0:31:47leadership to take us in a completely different direction which
0:31:47 > 0:31:54will ultimately define where we go. Or at least recognise the concerns.
0:31:54 > 0:31:59Recognise the concerns that it undermines the issue when the media
0:31:59 > 0:32:04have put the blame on immigrants.I think that suits your agenda.We
0:32:04 > 0:32:11will have you back for the next report. And even after the
0:32:11 > 0:32:14watershed, I have to apologise and say we're not allowed to swear
0:32:14 > 0:32:18unless I warn you first.
0:32:18 > 0:32:20Over five billion journeys are made by bus each year.
0:32:20 > 0:32:23By contrast only around 250 million journeys are made on trains.
0:32:23 > 0:32:26But in terms of political fallout - even though most of our rail system
0:32:26 > 0:32:28has long been privatised - when the trains fail it's
0:32:28 > 0:32:30the government that has to justify its handling
0:32:30 > 0:32:31of the network.
0:32:31 > 0:32:34It got it in the neck today from the National Audit Office
0:32:34 > 0:32:36over the way it awarded the Govia Thameslink franchise.
0:32:36 > 0:32:39It comes soon after the Transport Secretary Chris Grayling had
0:32:39 > 0:32:40to answer questions over the financial arrangements
0:32:40 > 0:32:42of the East Coast franchise.
0:32:42 > 0:32:44Today he said the companies running the route are not
0:32:44 > 0:32:45being given a bailout.
0:32:45 > 0:32:48Despite the claims of the party of the said this is not a bailout.
0:32:48 > 0:32:50There is no viable legal mechanism through which
0:32:50 > 0:32:53I can extract any more money from them.
0:32:53 > 0:32:56My department is preparing contingency plans, as we do not
0:32:56 > 0:32:59believe the franchise will be financially viable through to 2020.
0:32:59 > 0:33:03I've clearly got a duty to do that for passengers.
0:33:03 > 0:33:06When we reach a conclusion to that work I will come
0:33:06 > 0:33:09back to this house and make a statement.
0:33:09 > 0:33:11So, what's going on on the railways?
0:33:11 > 0:33:18Our business editor Helen Thomas is here.
0:33:18 > 0:33:22The East Coast specifically referenced today. What happened?
0:33:22 > 0:33:26Last November, the government said the east Coast franchise which is a
0:33:26 > 0:33:29joint venture between Stagecoach and Virgin Group Woodend in 2020 which
0:33:29 > 0:33:34is three years earlier than planned. Stagecoach said they had over bid on
0:33:34 > 0:33:38this contract. They had been too aggressive and so critics have
0:33:38 > 0:33:44called this a bailout and said it should have been nationalised. The
0:33:44 > 0:33:47government dispute that. They concede the company have got their
0:33:47 > 0:33:49numbers wrong because big infrastructure and improvements have
0:33:49 > 0:33:55not come through as expected, but they say they will take 165 million
0:33:55 > 0:33:58of the companies which was the full guarantee that was baked into this
0:33:58 > 0:34:03contract. It has set up an almighty debate about rail franchising and
0:34:03 > 0:34:08whether it is working at all.In terms of other franchises, where
0:34:08 > 0:34:14does this leave the government?Huge amounts of debate about that in the
0:34:14 > 0:34:21industry. Rail
0:34:21 > 0:34:23industry. Rail passenger numbers have flat lined. They rose above 4%
0:34:23 > 0:34:25on average each year since the mid-90s and they flat lined in 2016
0:34:25 > 0:34:28and the latest numbers show them falling. The question is have other
0:34:28 > 0:34:33companies got their numbers wrong? Industry experts have said three
0:34:33 > 0:34:37other franchises could face difficulties, Northern, Greater
0:34:37 > 0:34:41Anglia and trans-Pennine. Those awarded around the 201516 period,
0:34:41 > 0:34:49very competitive eating and before this downturn. The company we have
0:34:49 > 0:34:55spoken to, Abellio, the Dutch company behind Greater Anglia say
0:34:55 > 0:35:00they are confident of meeting their targets and all three companies say
0:35:00 > 0:35:05they are stressing and modernising and adding capacity. There is a huge
0:35:05 > 0:35:09ideological debate going on here. Labour says privatisation has
0:35:09 > 0:35:14failed. Industry would say passenger traffic has doubled since the 90s.
0:35:14 > 0:35:19In reality, these are not private companies, these are huge government
0:35:19 > 0:35:23contracts with lots of constipated requirements in them. The question
0:35:23 > 0:35:26is, who bears the risk when things go wrong and that will always be
0:35:26 > 0:35:30controversial.Thank you.
0:35:30 > 0:35:33At the time of his death - two years ago today -
0:35:33 > 0:35:35David Bowie was collaborating on a book including many previously
0:35:35 > 0:35:37unseen photographs from his hugely successful
0:35:37 > 0:35:38'Serious Moonlight' tour of 1983.
0:35:38 > 0:35:43Bowie played to packed stadiums around the world on the back
0:35:43 > 0:35:45of his hit album Let's Dance.
0:35:45 > 0:35:47And following him, both on-stage and off, was British
0:35:47 > 0:35:50photographer Denis O'Regan.
0:35:50 > 0:35:53O'Regan's putting together a limited edition boxed-set of 1,000 or so
0:35:53 > 0:35:55photographs plus other memorabilia, called Ricochet
0:35:55 > 0:36:01for sale to collectors and Bowie completists at a suitably starry
0:36:01 > 0:36:02price of £3000.
0:36:02 > 0:36:03A more affordable paperback will also appear.
0:36:03 > 0:36:05Denis O'Regan has been telling Stephen Smith
0:36:05 > 0:36:08about the thrills - and the stills - of life on the road
0:36:08 > 0:36:12with David Bowie.
0:36:12 > 0:36:18MUSIC: Let's Dance
0:36:18 > 0:36:19He would actively want me to photograph
0:36:19 > 0:36:22him the whole time.
0:36:22 > 0:36:26We all queued up for our bags and David
0:36:26 > 0:36:29had his trolley, and of course I didn't take any pictures
0:36:29 > 0:36:30thinking this is boring.
0:36:30 > 0:36:33But he and his PA said I think you should be capturing this.
0:36:33 > 0:36:37This isn't how you normally see David.
0:36:37 > 0:36:39I realised really quickly that they wanted me to capture
0:36:39 > 0:36:42virtually everything that he did.
0:36:42 > 0:36:45MUSIC: Let's Dance
0:36:45 > 0:36:50# Let's dance put on your red shoes and dance the blues #
0:36:50 > 0:36:51Arriving at the airport surrounded as usual.
0:36:51 > 0:36:55Denis O'Regan went round the world with David Bowie.
0:36:55 > 0:37:03Private jet, 5-star hotels, tough job but somebody had to do it.
0:37:04 > 0:37:07He was photographer by appointment to the star on his all-conquering
0:37:07 > 0:37:09tour of 1983.
0:37:09 > 0:37:11MUSIC: Let's Dance
0:37:11 > 0:37:16# Let's sway under the moonlight, this serious moonlight #
0:37:16 > 0:37:20The pair of them already had history.
0:37:20 > 0:37:22I met David outside Olympic Studios in Barnes, West London
0:37:22 > 0:37:28when he was recording Diamond Dogs.
0:37:28 > 0:37:31And I was working in a newspaper shop because I was still a teenager,
0:37:31 > 0:37:36working in a newspaper shop across the road.
0:37:36 > 0:37:38And some girls came into the shop giggling and asking to
0:37:38 > 0:37:39buy notebooks.
0:37:39 > 0:37:40So...
0:37:40 > 0:37:41For his autograph?
0:37:41 > 0:37:42To get his autograph.
0:37:42 > 0:37:45So I asked around and found out that who it was.
0:37:45 > 0:37:48So I went home, got my camera and zipped back, got my uncle's
0:37:48 > 0:37:51camera, actually, zipped back and got some pictures of him walking
0:37:51 > 0:37:53into the studio, and then it was kind of,
0:37:53 > 0:37:56hello, you should work for NME sort of thing and that was our first
0:37:56 > 0:37:57exchange.
0:37:57 > 0:37:59# You've got your mother in a whirl
0:37:59 > 0:38:02# She's not sure if you're a boy or a girl #
0:38:02 > 0:38:03Can I sit down here?
0:38:03 > 0:38:04Yeah, sure.
0:38:04 > 0:38:06No, I can't.
0:38:06 > 0:38:11I'll sit here then.
0:38:11 > 0:38:13About two days ago EMI Records phoned me up in Australia
0:38:13 > 0:38:18and said, would I like to take a 25 hour flight
0:38:18 > 0:38:26back and come and sit in a room with 75 journalists?
0:38:26 > 0:38:29Over the last year I've completed an album and single called Let's Dance,
0:38:29 > 0:38:33and tomorrow tickets go on sale in the UK, and in the next few days in
0:38:33 > 0:38:36the rest of Europe for concert performances.
0:38:36 > 0:38:38MUSIC: Modern Love
0:38:38 > 0:38:40# I catch a paper boy
0:38:40 > 0:38:43# But things don't really change
0:38:43 > 0:38:44# I'm standing in the wind
0:38:44 > 0:38:48# But I never wave bye-bye #
0:38:48 > 0:38:50Bowie didn't seem to mind what pictures O'Regan took on
0:38:50 > 0:38:54his Serious Moonlight tour.
0:38:54 > 0:38:58He was more concerned about the ones he missed.
0:38:58 > 0:39:01The tour manager says, "David wants to see you."
0:39:01 > 0:39:05So I said OK, so I wander down to the dressing room
0:39:05 > 0:39:09and as I opened up the dressing room
0:39:09 > 0:39:11door David was facing me and the make-up girl
0:39:11 > 0:39:14was behind me and I saw from her look that I was
0:39:14 > 0:39:15obviously in trouble for something.
0:39:15 > 0:39:17And David said, "Did you get it?"
0:39:17 > 0:39:18And I said, "well, get what?"
0:39:18 > 0:39:20And he said, "Get out of my sight."
0:39:20 > 0:39:25So I still didn't know what I'd missed.
0:39:25 > 0:39:28Of course, it turned out he'd got hugely mobbed at the backstage door
0:39:28 > 0:39:30and I wasn't there.
0:39:30 > 0:39:35To make up for that actual instance, David rented a car
0:39:35 > 0:39:39and organised a picnic and drove me and two other friends out for a
0:39:39 > 0:39:47picnic that he'd arranged in a wildlife nature reserve.
0:39:49 > 0:39:52The man off-stage was very different to the persona that I'd seen of
0:39:52 > 0:39:55David Bowie on stage, which was very cool and detached, which is the very
0:39:55 > 0:39:57opposite of David.
0:39:57 > 0:39:58He's very warm, funny, engaging, self-deprecating.
0:39:58 > 0:40:01He laughed a huge, huge amount.
0:40:01 > 0:40:02Is that anywhere near accurate?
0:40:02 > 0:40:03Absolutely nowhere near accurate.
0:40:03 > 0:40:05Can you give us a more accurate figure?
0:40:05 > 0:40:07Of course not!
0:40:07 > 0:40:09I could do a book of David laughing.
0:40:09 > 0:40:10You mean shots of him?
0:40:10 > 0:40:11Yeah.
0:40:11 > 0:40:12Roaring away?
0:40:12 > 0:40:14Yeah.
0:40:14 > 0:40:16He laughed, onstage he laughed a lot because he
0:40:16 > 0:40:19didn't have to play the Thin White Duke or Ziggy Stardust anymore.
0:40:19 > 0:40:22So, he was allowed to laughed onstage.
0:40:22 > 0:40:24But he laughed all the time off stage as well.
0:40:24 > 0:40:27It's what he really wanted to spend his time
0:40:27 > 0:40:28doing, was having fun.
0:40:28 > 0:40:30It was one of Bowie's biggest tours in support of
0:40:30 > 0:40:33a massive hit record.
0:40:33 > 0:40:36But is it true that he didn't care for it overmuch?
0:40:36 > 0:40:43He was really, really proud of it.
0:40:43 > 0:40:46He was proud of the album, proud of the tour, proud of the show,
0:40:46 > 0:40:48and also it made him hugely rich.
0:40:48 > 0:40:50In the context then when he looked back and
0:40:50 > 0:40:53put that into the context of everything else he did it obviously
0:40:53 > 0:40:56wasn't as mean and dirty and culty as some of the other things
0:40:56 > 0:41:00he'd done.
0:41:00 > 0:41:03And to then look back and call it his Phil Collins period.
0:41:03 > 0:41:05Is that what he described it as?
0:41:05 > 0:41:06Yeah, later on.
0:41:06 > 0:41:0820 years later it suddenly became his Phil Collins period.
0:41:08 > 0:41:11But at the time it was his peak.
0:41:11 > 0:41:14I think now in a world where everything is
0:41:14 > 0:41:17so visual it's inconceivable that you become a star without the visual
0:41:17 > 0:41:22aspect, it's perhaps hard for us to recognise that when Bowie started
0:41:22 > 0:41:27in the late 60s that this was less of a concept and he was very,
0:41:27 > 0:41:32very early on to that idea of fusing the visual and the music.
0:41:32 > 0:41:37He knew how important image was.
0:41:37 > 0:41:39MUSIC: Lazarus
0:41:39 > 0:41:46# Just like that bluebird #
0:41:46 > 0:41:48Once so accessible, the star became more reclusive in latter
0:41:48 > 0:41:49years, following health problems.
0:41:49 > 0:41:53But O'Regan said he never stopped wanting to be David Bowie.
0:41:53 > 0:41:55He'd made mistakes but he learned from those mistakes,
0:41:55 > 0:41:58and some of those mistakes and less popular parts of
0:41:58 > 0:42:00his career became part of that tapestry, part of that timeline.
0:42:00 > 0:42:02I think he was happy with that.
0:42:02 > 0:42:05I think he was very happy with being David Bowie.
0:42:05 > 0:42:07But he wanted to be David Jones as well.
0:42:07 > 0:42:09It's very difficult for someone as famous as
0:42:09 > 0:42:12him and so distinctive, but he managed to disappear when he wanted
0:42:12 > 0:42:13to disappear.
0:42:13 > 0:42:15MUSIC: Lazarus
0:42:15 > 0:42:23# Ain't that just like me #
0:42:28 > 0:42:33Steven Smith and David Bowie who died two years ago today. That is
0:42:33 > 0:42:41all we have time for tonight. Good night from all of us.