0:00:12 > 0:00:19How badly our NHS targets being this? We asked the Health Secretary
0:00:19 > 0:00:21last week, and he couldn't answer.
0:00:21 > 0:00:24Why won't you tell me what the number is, the percentage?
0:00:24 > 0:00:26It is not my target, it is your own number.
0:00:26 > 0:00:29Because we don't have a number to publish, there is no number that
0:00:29 > 0:00:31I'm sitting on that I am not telling you.
0:00:31 > 0:00:34It will be published next week and I don't know
0:00:34 > 0:00:35what that number will be.
0:00:35 > 0:00:36Today we got the true figures.
0:00:36 > 0:00:38Waiting time performances in A&E are at their worst
0:00:38 > 0:00:40level for 14 years.
0:00:40 > 0:00:42We hear from one doctor who is feeling it first-hand.
0:00:42 > 0:00:43A&E is at breaking point.
0:00:43 > 0:00:44We are exceptionally, exceptionally busy.
0:00:44 > 0:00:46Doctors and nurses are being pushed to the limit.
0:00:46 > 0:00:50And patients are having to wait far too long for the care they deserve,
0:00:50 > 0:00:53Also tonight: Guess who fancies a second referendum on Brexit?
0:00:53 > 0:00:55I'm reaching the point in thinking that we should have a second
0:00:55 > 0:00:59referendum on EU membership.
0:00:59 > 0:01:00The whole thing?!
0:01:00 > 0:01:02Of course.
0:01:02 > 0:01:04Why do both sides still think they would win if we asked
0:01:04 > 0:01:06the country to vote all over again?
0:01:06 > 0:01:10And what does Europe make of us?
0:01:10 > 0:01:14We'll ask the president of the Eurogroup.
0:01:14 > 0:01:16We'll also be joined by the author of "that" Trump
0:01:16 > 0:01:20fly-on-the-wall book, Fire and Fury, Michael Wolff.
0:01:20 > 0:01:23And we report from the ruins of Mosul in Iraq, where some
0:01:23 > 0:01:27estimate that 10,000 people lost their lives.
0:01:27 > 0:01:30In some parts of Mosul, the smell of death is
0:01:30 > 0:01:31pungent even after months
0:01:31 > 0:01:34since the battle for the city ended.
0:01:34 > 0:01:42The bodies of many residents are still trapped under the rubble.
0:01:47 > 0:01:50Good evening.
0:01:50 > 0:01:53It's getting harder by the day to pretend the NHS is not
0:01:53 > 0:01:54in crisis this winter.
0:01:54 > 0:01:56Like a rubber band you keep pulling and pulling,
0:01:56 > 0:01:59said one consultant today, eventually it snaps.
0:01:59 > 0:02:04Staff have described patients dying prematurely in corridors.
0:02:04 > 0:02:08But if you want harder figures, they're here for the taking.
0:02:08 > 0:02:10Waiting times performances in accident and emergency
0:02:10 > 0:02:18departments have reached their worst level in 14 years.
0:02:19 > 0:02:21Today a letter from the heads of more than 60 A&E departments
0:02:21 > 0:02:24in England and Wales warned the Prime Minister that the current
0:02:24 > 0:02:27level of safety compromise is at times intolerable.
0:02:27 > 0:02:29Last week, I asked the Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt how far off
0:02:29 > 0:02:30target the waiting figures were.
0:02:30 > 0:02:32He didn't have the number.
0:02:32 > 0:02:34But today we heard performance levels were the worst result
0:02:34 > 0:02:37since the introduction of the target in 2004.
0:02:37 > 0:02:41Here's Chris Cook.
0:02:41 > 0:02:45Accident and emergency figures are the most visible sign
0:02:45 > 0:02:48of the strain now placed on the English NHS.
0:02:48 > 0:02:50Rising patient demand has overwhelmed the service's
0:02:50 > 0:02:54ability to cope.
0:02:54 > 0:03:02Let's take a look at monthly A&E performance going back to 2010.
0:03:02 > 0:03:04Since then, emergency departments have been aiming to deal
0:03:04 > 0:03:06with 95% of patients within four hours.
0:03:06 > 0:03:08That target, that is the dotted line.
0:03:08 > 0:03:10That has proved harder in winter months.
0:03:10 > 0:03:13Marked in by these grey bars.
0:03:13 > 0:03:16If we draw in the line showing their performance,
0:03:16 > 0:03:18the most striking pattern is that during the last Parliament,
0:03:18 > 0:03:22A&E performance started to drift away from target.
0:03:22 > 0:03:26It is now well off, down at 85%.
0:03:26 > 0:03:27The number is even lower.
0:03:27 > 0:03:31About 77%.
0:03:31 > 0:03:33If you look just at traditional, major A&Es.
0:03:33 > 0:03:34So-called type ones.
0:03:34 > 0:03:36And don't think include things like walk-in centres.
0:03:36 > 0:03:39Our hospitals are overfull.
0:03:39 > 0:03:42We are miles from where we need to be to hit our targets.
0:03:42 > 0:03:44It means my patients are waiting in the waiting room,
0:03:44 > 0:03:46maybe sometimes standing because there aren't
0:03:46 > 0:03:49even enough chairs.
0:03:49 > 0:03:51Patients are waiting in corridors, patients may have to wait
0:03:51 > 0:03:53in the back of ambulances.
0:03:53 > 0:03:55And then when patients even get into a cubicle,
0:03:55 > 0:03:59sometimes there are two patients per cubicle,
0:03:59 > 0:04:02just with a temporary partition between them for a bit of privacy.
0:04:02 > 0:04:06It is sometimes just a number, just a statistic.
0:04:06 > 0:04:13But it is having real effects to patients.
0:04:13 > 0:04:13Some individual hospital trusts have seen astonishing
0:04:13 > 0:04:14collapses in performance.
0:04:14 > 0:04:22Take the Blackpool and Royal Cornwall Trust.
0:04:24 > 0:04:26They were respectively at 61% and 77% last year.
0:04:26 > 0:04:27Both poor performances.
0:04:27 > 0:04:32This year, they dropped to 40% and 58%.
0:04:32 > 0:04:38The NHS is 70 years old this year, and we know by now the pressures
0:04:38 > 0:04:40on it will keep growing.
0:04:40 > 0:04:42Medicine is advancing so it can treat more stuff
0:04:42 > 0:04:43and our society is ageing.
0:04:43 > 0:04:46But the NHS budget has been growing at a historically slow rate
0:04:46 > 0:04:49since the onset of austerity under the Coalition.
0:04:49 > 0:04:52It keeps becoming ever more efficient but it can no longer meet
0:04:52 > 0:04:55the demands being placed on it.
0:04:55 > 0:05:02The underlying problem is best illustrated by this chart.
0:05:02 > 0:05:07The number of people turning up to A&Es just keeps rising, and this
0:05:07 > 0:05:10isn't about people who should not be there skipping the queue at the GP.
0:05:10 > 0:05:13You can see that if you look at the past 12 months.
0:05:13 > 0:05:18The number of people turning up at major A&Es has risen by 1%
0:05:18 > 0:05:21but the number of people sick enough, turning up to A&E who need
0:05:21 > 0:05:22admitting to hospital, is up by 5.6%.
0:05:22 > 0:05:25The underlying pressure is that we are an ageing society
0:05:25 > 0:05:28with rising sickness levels.
0:05:28 > 0:05:33And this year, a bad case of flu.
0:05:33 > 0:05:37We are seeing the same as we saw last year with no change and it
0:05:37 > 0:05:40could just get worse and worse next year and the year after and that is
0:05:40 > 0:05:41the real worrying thing.
0:05:41 > 0:05:43Because we are at breaking point.
0:05:43 > 0:05:46Who knows where we will be if nothing changes by next year?
0:05:46 > 0:05:47There are no easy fixes here.
0:05:47 > 0:05:51The elastic won't spring back as winter thaws.
0:05:51 > 0:05:54Either we pay more in tax or we'll pay more in the form
0:05:54 > 0:06:01of worse health care.
0:06:01 > 0:06:04We asked the Government and NHS England to join us tonight
0:06:04 > 0:06:05but nobody was available.
0:06:05 > 0:06:07In a statement, the Department of Health said it treated
0:06:07 > 0:06:09more than 55,000 people within the four-hour
0:06:09 > 0:06:11target every day.
0:06:11 > 0:06:14NHS England said it was dealing with rising flu and record numbers
0:06:14 > 0:06:16of admissions but that the service had managed to maintain A&E
0:06:16 > 0:06:21performance at the same level as last January.
0:06:21 > 0:06:22I'm joined by Dr Taj Hassan, president
0:06:22 > 0:06:27of the Royal College of Emergency Medicine.
0:06:27 > 0:06:36We saw there figure is rising up. Very nice of you to come in. How
0:06:36 > 0:06:40accurately do the figures reflect what happens to you on an average
0:06:40 > 0:06:47shift? Described for us, if you can, your last shift.It was a busy one.
0:06:47 > 0:06:50It involved a significant number of patients in my department who were
0:06:50 > 0:06:55coming in through the front door, but there was also a significant
0:06:55 > 0:06:58number of patients, unfortunately, that I and my staff were caring for
0:06:58 > 0:07:04a should have been on wards in the hospital. We are effectively
0:07:04 > 0:07:07managing a ward for a patient that should be within the hospital as
0:07:07 > 0:07:12well as the ones coming through the door, so that unfortunately creates
0:07:12 > 0:07:17what is called a crowded emergency department, or exit blocked, because
0:07:17 > 0:07:20we can't get them out of our department, and that causes delays
0:07:20 > 0:07:26in assessment, in antibiotics being given, and delays in pain relief. It
0:07:26 > 0:07:29compromises the dignity of the patients that we care for, which I
0:07:29 > 0:07:34think is one of the big things that nurses and doctors in our department
0:07:34 > 0:07:41is care about.When you say it compromises the dignity of patients,
0:07:41 > 0:07:44does it all so ultimately compromise their safety, or do you still feel
0:07:44 > 0:07:52confident that you are delivering the same levels of medicine?We work
0:07:52 > 0:07:55in a health service where I think we have amongst the best health care
0:07:55 > 0:08:00workers in the world, people who were really, really hard, and they
0:08:00 > 0:08:04will go the extra mile, but unfortunately, the Independent
0:08:04 > 0:08:09scientific evidence, both from the UK and internationally, shows that
0:08:09 > 0:08:13the more crowded your emergency department, the greater the risk of
0:08:13 > 0:08:23harm to patients, and that has been proven.This is not going to get
0:08:23 > 0:08:26better now, because of the demographics and the way that
0:08:26 > 0:08:29society is ageing, this is a problem that we're going to live with or
0:08:29 > 0:08:34after solving a totally different way.I don't think it should be
0:08:34 > 0:08:39something that we should live with, because unfortunately, over the last
0:08:39 > 0:08:45five years, we have had a number of significant cuts in areas that have
0:08:45 > 0:08:49influenced that crowded emergency department. We have cut £6 billion
0:08:49 > 0:08:56out of social care funding, and that results in patients who are fit from
0:08:56 > 0:08:59hospital beds that need to be sent home, they and their families want
0:08:59 > 0:09:04them to be at home, and they can't get out of hospital. We have cut the
0:09:04 > 0:09:08number of Acute Hospital beds by approximately 15,000, which results
0:09:08 > 0:09:14in and exacerbates the exit blocked. Most importantly, we have had to
0:09:14 > 0:09:19compromise in terms of the number of staff that we're able to employ, for
0:09:19 > 0:09:25a variety of reasons.And that is critical. Privately, are you having
0:09:25 > 0:09:28more hearing conversations by staff who are saying, actually, why would
0:09:28 > 0:09:36I carry on if I am five years away from retirement, or even ten years,
0:09:36 > 0:09:40and take the risk of ever doing something that could be damaging if
0:09:40 > 0:09:46I work in these conditions? Is that happening?Over the last few years,
0:09:46 > 0:09:52there has been a recognition that in my specialty, if you rank
0:09:52 > 0:09:55specialties for a potential for burn-out than people leaving
0:09:55 > 0:10:00prematurely, emergency medicine sits at the top, and that is in the
0:10:00 > 0:10:03international ranking. We have been campaigning hard for the last year,
0:10:03 > 0:10:10and actually, last October, with the help of colleagues from NHS England
0:10:10 > 0:10:16and NHS Improvement, especially people like Jim Mackie and Si
0:10:16 > 0:10:20Stephens, we were able to go to the Secretary of State and agree is a
0:10:20 > 0:10:28formula and a framework by which we can deliver better staffing and grow
0:10:28 > 0:10:38our workforce and reduce attrition. -- Simon Stephens. The wider context
0:10:38 > 0:10:42is the environment that these people are working in, and that can only be
0:10:42 > 0:10:48influenced by investing. At the moment, in this country, we are not
0:10:48 > 0:10:53investing in social care and acute bets adequately. -- acute beds. And
0:10:53 > 0:10:57we're not investing in our staff. Thank you for coming in.
0:10:57 > 0:11:00Does anyone really think there should be a second referendum
0:11:00 > 0:11:03on our decision to leave the EU?
0:11:03 > 0:11:04The latest advocate of a return to the ballot box
0:11:04 > 0:11:06came from unexpected quarters this morning.
0:11:06 > 0:11:09Nigel Farage told Channel 5's The Wright Stuff that he was warming
0:11:09 > 0:11:12to the idea and believed a second vote would result in
0:11:12 > 0:11:14another - much bigger - win in favour of Brexit.
0:11:14 > 0:11:16Have a listen.
0:11:16 > 0:11:18My mind is actually changing on this.
0:11:18 > 0:11:19Go on.
0:11:19 > 0:11:20I...
0:11:20 > 0:11:22What is for certain is that the Cleggs, the
0:11:22 > 0:11:24Blairs, the Adonises will never, ever give up.
0:11:24 > 0:11:31They will go on whingeing and whining and moaning
0:11:31 > 0:11:34all the way through this process, so maybe, just
0:11:34 > 0:11:35maybe, I'm reaching the
0:11:35 > 0:11:38point of thinking that we should have a second referendum, because...
0:11:38 > 0:11:39On what?
0:11:39 > 0:11:40On EU membership.
0:11:40 > 0:11:41The whole thing?!
0:11:41 > 0:11:44Yes, of course, of course.
0:11:44 > 0:11:45Unless you want to have a multiple-choice
0:11:45 > 0:11:47referendum, which would confuse people.
0:11:47 > 0:11:48No, no, no, I, I, I...
0:11:48 > 0:11:50I think if we had a second referendum
0:11:50 > 0:11:52on EU membership, we'd kill it off for a generation.
0:11:52 > 0:11:55The percentage that would vote to Leave next time would be
0:11:55 > 0:11:57very much bigger than it was last time round.
0:11:57 > 0:11:58I, I...
0:11:58 > 0:12:01It may just finish the whole thing off.
0:12:01 > 0:12:04We'll be discussing this in moment with our guests here.
0:12:04 > 0:12:06But first, our political editor, Nick Watt, is here.
0:12:06 > 0:12:11Nick, the story doesn't end there?
0:12:11 > 0:12:15That's right, a slight row wingback by Nigel Farage this evening in the
0:12:15 > 0:12:18Daily Telegraph. He has gone from what he said there, saying maybe we
0:12:18 > 0:12:24should have a second referendum, to saying, I fear that maybe there
0:12:24 > 0:12:27would be a second referendum if Parliament vote down the deal. Today
0:12:27 > 0:12:31he spoke at because Brexit supporters were strongly critical of
0:12:31 > 0:12:34him, and remain supporters said thank you very much. This was
0:12:34 > 0:12:37sparked off last week when Tony Blair said the British people should
0:12:37 > 0:12:43have the right to have a say, either in an election or a referendum on
0:12:43 > 0:12:48that final deal. Earlier today, I spoke to Tony Blair's former
0:12:48 > 0:12:50director of communications, Alistair Campbell, and is as what he had to
0:12:50 > 0:12:52say.
0:12:52 > 0:12:55And I think, actually, Nigel Farage, I think we're the reason that Farage
0:12:55 > 0:12:58and Johnson and these guys are getting a little bit desperate
0:12:58 > 0:13:01and just trying to take the ball into the corner flag and just get
0:13:01 > 0:13:02the final whistle blown.
0:13:02 > 0:13:05Because I think they understand that as people do see the detail,
0:13:05 > 0:13:08do realise the cost and the chaos, then not only should
0:13:08 > 0:13:11they have the right to think again but I think they will want to think
0:13:11 > 0:13:14again and I think they will give you a very different answer.
0:13:14 > 0:13:17And everyone thinks that the polls would now go their way, which is
0:13:17 > 0:13:24fascinating. How do the polls sit? Interestingly, there is a snap poll
0:13:24 > 0:13:28in the daily Mirror after those Nigel Farage remarks, showing there
0:13:28 > 0:13:36is minority support per second referendum, 43-51, but a majority
0:13:36 > 0:13:41support for Remain, 55-45. It is a snap poll, better to look at the
0:13:41 > 0:13:46monthly tracker on that question, which asks, is it right or wrong to
0:13:46 > 0:13:53have left the EU? And that shows even Stevens,
0:13:54 > 0:13:58even Stevens, though since August, it was wrong has been ahead. There
0:13:58 > 0:14:06was a blip of nine points for the league side. Today, we spoke to
0:14:06 > 0:14:10Deborah Martinson of Britain Thinks.
0:14:10 > 0:14:13So, we've been tracking this at Britain Thinks over the last 18
0:14:13 > 0:14:16months and the really fascinating thing is that people's fundamental
0:14:16 > 0:14:18views haven't changed at all in that time.
0:14:18 > 0:14:20So really nothing has changed, other than people are more worried.
0:14:20 > 0:14:24But I think the one thing you have to factor in when you think
0:14:24 > 0:14:25about this is the youth vote.
0:14:25 > 0:14:28Of course, what we know is that many more young people voted
0:14:28 > 0:14:30in the last election, people who didn't vote
0:14:30 > 0:14:31in the referendum.
0:14:31 > 0:14:35If they still vote, then that could change things.
0:14:35 > 0:14:39Joining me now is Diane James, the former leader of UKIP,
0:14:39 > 0:14:42Lucy Thomas, who was deputy director of the Remain campaign,
0:14:42 > 0:14:44and Jeroen Dijsselbloem, former Dutch Finance minister
0:14:44 > 0:14:47and outgoing president of the eurogroup of eurozone
0:14:47 > 0:14:51finance ministers.
0:14:51 > 0:14:58Nice to have all of you. Diane, what was he thinking?I am not sure! What
0:14:58 > 0:15:06was he smoking? It took you by surprise? It did, this is the sort
0:15:06 > 0:15:12of thing Nigel has got form with, he does have outrageous statements and
0:15:12 > 0:15:16in context, I will give my personal response, I can understand his
0:15:16 > 0:15:21frustration with the fact that the Remainers have not given up in
0:15:21 > 0:15:25trying to overturn this decision and when you hear that Tony Blair
0:15:25 > 0:15:28launches a £10 million fund and there are other organisations
0:15:28 > 0:15:34endorsed by the likes of Sir Nick Clegg and such, they still want to
0:15:34 > 0:15:38overturn a democratic vote, it is quite unbelievable. It will be
0:15:38 > 0:15:41interesting to see where this goes. Would you be up for the fight? Of
0:15:41 > 0:15:48course I would. And I brought this document with me, this future of
0:15:48 > 0:15:55Europe, this was released to the MEPs in October last year and this
0:15:55 > 0:15:57actually fleshes out the future of the European Union. It is a
0:15:57 > 0:16:05frightening document in terms of control. When that is in the public
0:16:05 > 0:16:09domain it will be interesting to see how people react.Lucy, would you
0:16:09 > 0:16:14relish a second chance? For me it was a democratic decision, people
0:16:14 > 0:16:19have had their say and I want to ask Nigel Farage, why can't you accept
0:16:19 > 0:16:25that you have one? What do you not accept? I have no Nigel Farage for
0:16:25 > 0:16:29about ten years and he alone is the fight, he loves campaigning. You
0:16:29 > 0:16:35think this is about publicity? He wants to remain relevant. The point
0:16:35 > 0:16:39of Diane was that Nick Clegg and Tony Blair do not feel this was
0:16:39 > 0:16:43undemocratic terms because of false promises, is at a reason to go back
0:16:43 > 0:16:47to the polls?There are some former Remainers who would like a second
0:16:47 > 0:16:53referendum but going back to what Nick said about the polls, public
0:16:53 > 0:16:58opinion has not shifted, there isn't any massive clamour for a second
0:16:58 > 0:17:02referendum and I don't think there is any big push for that. You can
0:17:02 > 0:17:06think about once the terms are known, where people to be suddenly
0:17:06 > 0:17:09up in arms and say we don't like these terms, do you want a second
0:17:09 > 0:17:17go?But the polls are not there. You were at the vanguard of that, deputy
0:17:17 > 0:17:20director, would you fight this in a different way? Did you look back
0:17:20 > 0:17:23with your head in your hands at the way the Remain campaign went about
0:17:23 > 0:17:29that?I think it was a very hard campaign to fight. Given that
0:17:29 > 0:17:36people, when we first started, it was 50-50, when we spoke to focus
0:17:36 > 0:17:38groups there was no real concept of what the positives of remaining
0:17:38 > 0:17:45wearer. Within six months, there was a huge amount of work to do to land
0:17:45 > 0:17:50those positives, what do we get from being in the EU? It is a very hard
0:17:50 > 0:17:54discussion, not least because in a referendum when there are choices
0:17:54 > 0:17:58and it is a very conjugated question, people can put all sorts
0:17:58 > 0:18:02of different things into the pot. And our building to take back
0:18:02 > 0:18:06control or whatever it is they choose to put into the pot.Jeroen
0:18:06 > 0:18:14Djesselbloem, what is Europe thinking about Brexit right now?
0:18:14 > 0:18:18Today, after this cry from the second referendum? I have not heard
0:18:18 > 0:18:21anybody in Brussels arguing for a second referendum. I think people in
0:18:21 > 0:18:25Brussels are waiting for what does the UK government want to have in
0:18:25 > 0:18:30the end deal? What does it look like? We want clarity to move
0:18:30 > 0:18:36forward on that.It is up to the UK government to decide what that looks
0:18:36 > 0:18:43like?To have a negotiating position, indeed. Very helpful. No
0:18:43 > 0:18:47one in Brussels is questioning the mandate that the UK government has
0:18:47 > 0:18:51coming out of the first referendum, that is quite clear, there is going
0:18:51 > 0:18:57to be Brexit. We are trying to sort out these conjugated questions, what
0:18:57 > 0:19:01does it look like, the future relationship? My argument, we focus
0:19:01 > 0:19:05on trying to solve these issues and minimise the losses because is going
0:19:05 > 0:19:10to be losses on all sides. Let us focus on that rather than reopen the
0:19:10 > 0:19:14debate and going back to zero.There is a delicious irony that the only
0:19:14 > 0:19:18person questioning the mandate is the former leader of Ukip, Nigel
0:19:18 > 0:19:24Farage! Does it suggest, as Lucy said, that he just wants to be back
0:19:24 > 0:19:30at the centre of attention? Or does he think that it is not convincing
0:19:30 > 0:19:35enough people that this is going in the right direction?He has got two
0:19:35 > 0:19:38objectives, he wants to expose the degree of resistance from the
0:19:38 > 0:19:44Remainers, that still is with them in terms of their absolutely
0:19:44 > 0:19:50determined to overturn that decision.I am not at all and I see
0:19:50 > 0:19:55it as a democratic decision, there isn't this.But Tony Blair and Nick
0:19:55 > 0:20:01Clegg are leading this is the main issue of overturning that democratic
0:20:01 > 0:20:04decision. And the Labour Party is being very interesting in terms of
0:20:04 > 0:20:10denying its position that everything at once currently would mean staying
0:20:10 > 0:20:16in the EU.That is absolutely not right, to quote Nigel Farage, he
0:20:16 > 0:20:21said before the referendum that if it were to be narrow and 52 remain,
0:20:21 > 0:20:2848 to leave, that would be unfinished business, and what he
0:20:28 > 0:20:32said he would carry on fighting for... For those people who were
0:20:32 > 0:20:37former Remainers and want a second goal, Nigel Farage himself said
0:20:37 > 0:20:4352-42 was too narrow.What has changed? We have Tony Blair, Nick
0:20:43 > 0:20:49Clegg, Nigel Farage, sitting in a particular corner saying, wait a
0:20:49 > 0:20:53minute, we still believe, given our previous position, that it is
0:20:53 > 0:20:57unfinished business.I am agreeing with you. The point was we think we
0:20:57 > 0:21:01have left Europe in a certain place but Europe has moved on. But there's
0:21:01 > 0:21:05more interested and in more integration post written?That has
0:21:05 > 0:21:11been the talk? You have to realise and the people in the UK have to
0:21:11 > 0:21:14understand that Brexit is no longer on the front pages in Europe and has
0:21:14 > 0:21:19not been for some months. It is on the front pages in the UK every day,
0:21:19 > 0:21:24the first three pages. If you open up the papers on the continent you
0:21:24 > 0:21:29will find very little.Nobody in Europe is trying to convince Britain
0:21:29 > 0:21:34to stay?You will find individuals. But there is no drive to reopen this
0:21:34 > 0:21:39debate.That is not entirely true, the German automotive industry in
0:21:39 > 0:21:43the last few days highlighted the dangers that Brexit is going to
0:21:43 > 0:21:51have. Because of the degree of the volume of cars exported.You are
0:21:51 > 0:21:54agreeing with the German manufacturing is?!I am simply
0:21:54 > 0:22:01highlighting that there is an industry that is... Added was
0:22:01 > 0:22:05in-built, to stay -- to say it is not covered by the European press is
0:22:05 > 0:22:10untrue.Do you think the concept of no deal is a very clever way of
0:22:10 > 0:22:15bringing Europe right to the table? Where Theresa May needs to start
0:22:15 > 0:22:21negotiations? My sense is that some strategic politicians in the UK
0:22:21 > 0:22:26thought that if they said, if they threatened us with no deal, that
0:22:26 > 0:22:31would be helpful for their position. It has completely backfired because
0:22:31 > 0:22:36in Europe people are preparing for the possible outcome of no deal and
0:22:36 > 0:22:41the British Government is in panic. How can it be that they are
0:22:41 > 0:22:48preparing no deal? It is going to be a bad situation, it is a bad
0:22:48 > 0:22:53decision, the car industry is right. It is a political fact for us. And
0:22:53 > 0:22:56we need to concentrate on minimising the damage and getting a good
0:22:56 > 0:23:02outcome.Isn't the truth that the Europe we will leave in two years
0:23:02 > 0:23:06will be a very different shape and feel to the Europe were part of
0:23:06 > 0:23:13right now?Yes and that is why Nigel Farage was talking about the
0:23:13 > 0:23:18referendum, into what? What would the terms be? It is not right to say
0:23:18 > 0:23:24we would go into what we had before. I would agree entirely, the decision
0:23:24 > 0:23:28has been made, Europe is moving on and Brexit will happen.Thank you
0:23:28 > 0:23:31all very much indeed.
0:23:31 > 0:23:34"Why are we having all these people from shithole countries come here?"
0:23:34 > 0:23:37That, according to the Washington Post, is what Donald Trump today
0:23:37 > 0:23:40uttered during a meeting aimed at finding a cross-party
0:23:40 > 0:23:42deal on immigration.
0:23:42 > 0:23:45This revelation comes hot on the heels of Michael Wolff's book
0:23:45 > 0:23:48on the Trump White House.
0:23:48 > 0:23:51A bit like any tweet by the President, Fire and Fury has
0:23:51 > 0:23:54caused a stir the ramifications of which may not truly be understood
0:23:54 > 0:23:56for some time to come.
0:23:56 > 0:23:59What we do know is that a bad tempered tiff
0:23:59 > 0:24:03between the President and his former White House Advisor Steve Bannon
0:24:03 > 0:24:07over the contents of Wolff's book has changed the dynamics of the US
0:24:07 > 0:24:15political climate with his departure this week from Breitbart News.
0:24:15 > 0:24:19Michael Wolff is with us for his very first British TV interview,
0:24:19 > 0:24:24joining us from New York. Did you feel when you were writing this
0:24:24 > 0:24:28book, but in this book together, did you feel as if you are trying to
0:24:28 > 0:24:37bring down the President?Quite the opposite. I went into this project,
0:24:37 > 0:24:40into the White House, with an entirely open mind. I really would
0:24:40 > 0:24:47have been willing to write a book about the unexpected success of
0:24:47 > 0:24:50Donald Trump. That, of course, is not what I found, quite the
0:24:50 > 0:24:56opposite. Stop I find a White House filled with the people closest to
0:24:56 > 0:25:01him who turned out to be the people most worried about him.When you
0:25:01 > 0:25:05talk about going into the White House, the details are fascinating
0:25:05 > 0:25:10from any of us. Give us some sense of your access. Donald Trump he
0:25:10 > 0:25:14denies he spoke to you or that you had any access, did you walk into
0:25:14 > 0:25:19the same place every time? Did you say hello to the same people?Yes,
0:25:19 > 0:25:24exactly.
0:25:24 > 0:25:30exactly. Donald Trump's says that I had no access and no permission
0:25:30 > 0:25:35because I was there for the better part of seven months. You have to
0:25:35 > 0:25:39ask the question, how do they get there? And the answer is, Donald
0:25:39 > 0:25:45Trump. I said to Donald Trump and he says he doesn't know me but we have
0:25:45 > 0:25:52known each other for 20 years. At any rate, I said that I would like
0:25:52 > 0:25:55to come and be an observer at the White House and he thought I was
0:25:55 > 0:26:06asking for a job. I said I wanted to write a book. And his face fell with
0:26:06 > 0:26:09absolute lack of interest in the idea of the book. But he said OK,
0:26:09 > 0:26:19knock yourself out. And with that, using that, but basically became the
0:26:19 > 0:26:26carte blanche for me to enter the White House, to stay there, to sit
0:26:26 > 0:26:31down with almost every member of the senior staff again and again.And
0:26:31 > 0:26:34with Donald Trump himself, how many times would you say that you
0:26:34 > 0:26:40conversed with him personally since becoming President?I have said from
0:26:40 > 0:26:45the beginning on this that I have spent about three hours with Donald
0:26:45 > 0:26:51Trump through the campaign, the transition and in the White House.
0:26:51 > 0:26:56Since he became President, how long would that have been?From the
0:26:56 > 0:27:03inauguration onwards, we had one on the record session and then I would
0:27:03 > 0:27:11see him in The West Wing and we would chat.We did not presumably
0:27:11 > 0:27:14see Steve Bannon quitting Breitbart News as a direct consequence of this
0:27:14 > 0:27:23book, did you?I did not anticipate that, it seems to have been the
0:27:23 > 0:27:34outcome.My question is, you think that balance remains a key figure on
0:27:34 > 0:27:38the ideological right? Will Trump be weakened or strengthened wi-fi ten?
0:27:38 > 0:27:42Will he lose his base? Where he goes soft or does it make the next year
0:27:42 > 0:27:50of elections easier for him?I don't think we know the answer to this. It
0:27:50 > 0:27:57might well mean that Trump goes to the traditional Republican side,
0:27:57 > 0:28:05does not run the sort of wing nut party in Congressional races and it
0:28:05 > 0:28:09gives the Republicans an advantage. That is one scenario. Another is
0:28:09 > 0:28:18that Steve Bannon decides to take down Donald Trump.Could he do that?
0:28:18 > 0:28:28Without Breitbart News?I don't know. Steve Bannon, his title was
0:28:28 > 0:28:32chief strategist in the White House and he is nothing if not the
0:28:32 > 0:28:37ultimate strategist. I would anticipate that at this point he is
0:28:37 > 0:28:43thinking through his options. But I felt that when he spoke to me for
0:28:43 > 0:28:50this book, he was making, on his way to making a calculated break with
0:28:50 > 0:28:56the President, who honestly, he seemed to regard as an idiot.I want
0:28:56 > 0:29:02to pick up on some of the criticism of the book, Gillette conflicting
0:29:02 > 0:29:05narratives get told, unclear whether he had been told these things
0:29:05 > 0:29:09first-hand, whether you had conversations, some say it is
0:29:09 > 0:29:13directly out of Donald Trump's own playbook. Why not make it more
0:29:13 > 0:29:21rigorous?Yes, let me talk a little about this book. The book has become
0:29:21 > 0:29:27something more than a book, it has become a political event. That means
0:29:27 > 0:29:31it is going to be the subject of an enormous amount of controversy, it
0:29:31 > 0:29:37means that a lot of people said things to me and now they find
0:29:37 > 0:29:41themselves like Dors in the headlights. My job on this book and
0:29:41 > 0:29:47I really had just one goal, it was too, as I sat there every day on a
0:29:47 > 0:29:52couch in The West Wing, to bring the reader right there. So that the
0:29:52 > 0:29:57reader could experience what I experience.You don't regret the
0:29:57 > 0:30:05fact that it is so unfiltered?No. My job is to bring an absolutely
0:30:05 > 0:30:09unfiltered account. It has been enormous controversy about that but
0:30:09 > 0:30:16what I would say is that there is room for a lot of interpretations of
0:30:16 > 0:30:21this White House, not only room but there will be so it is not just...
0:30:21 > 0:30:26There are daily reporters doing a good job of covering the White
0:30:26 > 0:30:32House. But my account, and it is an account that has obviously resonated
0:30:32 > 0:30:38with people, apparently everywhere, it is a contextual story of what has
0:30:38 > 0:30:46happened.Over these number of months. Let me ask you... At this
0:30:46 > 0:30:50point you have written the book after he became President. Many
0:30:50 > 0:30:54journalists are questioning how they covered the campaign, is there any
0:30:54 > 0:31:00guilt that you or your colleagues were much too caught up in a very
0:31:00 > 0:31:05sensational, sexy story to cover? If you were going back right now, you
0:31:05 > 0:31:12would be covering Trump in a very different way?Well, I don't know. I
0:31:12 > 0:31:17am not sure that I have any colleagues, which is part of the
0:31:17 > 0:31:20interesting thing that allowed me to write a totally independent version
0:31:20 > 0:31:27of this White House. But I think, from the beginning, there has been a
0:31:27 > 0:31:33problem. Nobody has known how to cover Donald Trump. When this
0:31:33 > 0:31:38administration began, many in the media said we cannot normalise this
0:31:38 > 0:31:44person. Effectively, the media coverage has formalised it. So the
0:31:44 > 0:31:49explosions every day have become so normal that we can no longer member
0:31:49 > 0:31:53what happened the day before. I would maintain that I actually may
0:31:53 > 0:32:00have found a way to write about this Presidency and this President.Great
0:32:00 > 0:32:04to have you. Thank you.
0:32:04 > 0:32:05Time for Viewsnight now.
0:32:05 > 0:32:07The concert pianist James Rhodes publishes a memoir this
0:32:07 > 0:32:10week, Fire on all Sides, in which he recounts his experience
0:32:10 > 0:32:11of suffering from mental illness.
0:32:11 > 0:32:14This is his take on the pursuit of happiness.
0:32:16 > 0:32:22We're not meant to be happy all of the time.
0:32:22 > 0:32:27The pursuit of happiness seems like such a noble one.
0:32:27 > 0:32:30And yet it is fundamentally flawed.
0:34:52 > 0:34:55No one knows for sure how many civilians were killed in the battle
0:34:55 > 0:34:58to liberate the city of Mosul from the so-called Islamic State.
0:34:58 > 0:35:01The city was the group's last urban stronghold in Iraq before
0:35:01 > 0:35:04it was retaken last July by the country's army with the help
0:35:04 > 0:35:06of US-led coalition forces.
0:35:06 > 0:35:10Amnesty International has reported that the civilian death toll
0:35:10 > 0:35:12could be up to 10,000 - more than ten times
0:35:12 > 0:35:14the official estimate.
0:35:14 > 0:35:18Nafiseh Kohnavard from the BBC's Persian Service has returned
0:35:18 > 0:35:21to Mosul, where the city's former old town lies in ruins and life
0:35:21 > 0:35:29for ordinary Iraqis has anything but returned to normal.
0:35:42 > 0:35:49This street used to be the beating heart of the old part of Mosul,
0:35:49 > 0:35:52Iraq's second most populated city.
0:35:52 > 0:35:54Even for a country which has seen many
0:35:54 > 0:35:56battles over the years, the
0:35:56 > 0:36:02destruction here is unprecedented.
0:36:02 > 0:36:05Mosul fighting to drive so-called Islamic State out of its main
0:36:05 > 0:36:13stronghold in Iraq has left large parts of this city in ruins.
0:36:20 > 0:36:23Only three years ago, you could hear the
0:36:23 > 0:36:27noise of shops, restaurants and busy traffic navigating through the
0:36:27 > 0:36:30streets.
0:36:30 > 0:36:32They have now been replaced by a deafening silence and a strong
0:36:32 > 0:36:34stench of death in the air.
0:36:34 > 0:36:36Bodies of Islamic State fighters are lying
0:36:36 > 0:36:37around unburied.
0:36:37 > 0:36:40And for survivors like Ahmad, the struggle hasn't ended.
0:36:40 > 0:36:43TRANSLATION:This is the city that I grew up in, and we were proud
0:36:43 > 0:36:47of it.
0:36:47 > 0:36:50It's a shame.
0:36:50 > 0:36:53Look now, nothing is left of it, especially in
0:36:53 > 0:36:56the west side.
0:36:56 > 0:36:58It's completely devastated, and there are no
0:36:58 > 0:36:59services here as well.
0:36:59 > 0:37:02He has lost eight members of his family here but
0:37:02 > 0:37:10still hasn't been able to find and bury their bodies.
0:37:11 > 0:37:14This is the first time he returns to what's left of
0:37:14 > 0:37:18the home he just bought five years ago.
0:37:18 > 0:37:21TRANSLATION:IS came to my family's neighbourhood and asked
0:37:21 > 0:37:29them to leave and replaced them with their own families.
0:37:30 > 0:37:34The first one who died was my brother-in-law,
0:37:34 > 0:37:42while he was trying to bring water from the river.
0:37:43 > 0:37:45Then my sister-in-law, who just got a little sick.
0:37:45 > 0:37:47At that time, IS were moving people from
0:37:47 > 0:37:49house to house, so they didn't want to have
0:37:49 > 0:37:52someone ill with them, so
0:37:52 > 0:37:54they killed her and threw her body into the river.
0:37:54 > 0:37:59For the security forces now in charge of the city,
0:37:59 > 0:38:07the biggest challenge is to build up trust with Mosul's residents.
0:38:08 > 0:38:10People who survived the air strikes are
0:38:10 > 0:38:13marked as possible IS sympathisers.
0:38:13 > 0:38:16For some, it's impossible to return to their homes without an
0:38:16 > 0:38:22authorisation signed by the new rulers.
0:38:22 > 0:38:26TRANSLATION:This is a dilemma.
0:38:26 > 0:38:32These people should go through security checks to make sure
0:38:32 > 0:38:34that they were not with IS.
0:38:34 > 0:38:36There are not very well-known IS members who
0:38:36 > 0:38:39we can only find through the people here, as local people know their
0:38:39 > 0:38:42faces, so we need first to identify them before we are able to let these
0:38:42 > 0:38:46people go back to their houses.
0:38:46 > 0:38:48The task to rebuild Mosul and clear the
0:38:48 > 0:38:53city of its rubble will take years.
0:38:53 > 0:38:55Driving IS fighters out of the narrow alleys
0:38:55 > 0:39:02of the old city took many months.
0:39:02 > 0:39:05These same streets and buildings with plenty of remaining
0:39:05 > 0:39:08death traps are proving to be the most difficult to clear.
0:39:08 > 0:39:14In some parts of Mosul, the smell of death
0:39:14 > 0:39:22is pungent, even after months since the battle for the city ended.
0:39:23 > 0:39:25The bodies of many residents are still
0:39:25 > 0:39:29trapped under the rubble, and there are people still looking
0:39:29 > 0:39:31to find out what happened to their lost loved
0:39:31 > 0:39:39ones.
0:39:41 > 0:39:43We witnessed the operation to recover the bodies of this man's
0:39:43 > 0:39:44three nephews.
0:39:44 > 0:39:47The eldest was only 12 years old.
0:39:47 > 0:39:48TRANSLATION:These are my sister's children.
0:39:48 > 0:39:50They were in another neighbourhood, but IS
0:39:50 > 0:39:56brought them here by force.
0:39:56 > 0:39:58Two days before we were bombed, I managed to
0:39:58 > 0:40:05talk to them.
0:40:05 > 0:40:08My nephew was telling me, Uncle, I just pray that our area
0:40:08 > 0:40:10be liberated so that I can come to you,
0:40:10 > 0:40:13and so we can play PlayStation.
0:40:13 > 0:40:17Despite all these difficulties, efforts to rebuild Mosul have
0:40:17 > 0:40:20started, and the new authorities are trying to clear all visible
0:40:20 > 0:40:24destruction.
0:40:24 > 0:40:26But the deeper underlying scars and wounds will
0:40:26 > 0:40:31take much longer to heal.
0:40:31 > 0:40:36Nafiseh Kohnavard there.
0:40:36 > 0:40:38That's it for tonight.
0:40:38 > 0:40:41Before we go, you may have heard that singer Lana del Rey
0:40:41 > 0:40:44is being threatened with legal action by Radiohead for the full
0:40:44 > 0:40:48rights to her song, Get Free, which they say sounds
0:40:48 > 0:40:50like their 1992 anthem, Creep.
0:40:50 > 0:40:54But Radiohead's people are now making more friendly noises,
0:40:54 > 0:40:59while del Rey's fans took to social media to remind us that Creep
0:40:59 > 0:41:02was itself a rip-off of The Hollies from 1974,
0:41:02 > 0:41:05for which Radiohead were themselves successfully sued.
0:41:05 > 0:41:07We're looking forward to fresh copyright claims
0:41:07 > 0:41:08from the 1950s tomorrow.
0:41:08 > 0:41:11Until then, you decide who takes home the pot of gold.
0:41:11 > 0:41:12Goodnight.
0:41:12 > 0:41:18LANA DEL REY: # Take the dead out of the sea.
0:41:18 > 0:41:24# And the darkness from the arts.
0:41:24 > 0:41:28# This is my commitment.
0:41:28 > 0:41:32# My modern manifesto.
0:41:32 > 0:41:37RADIOHEAD: # I wanna perfect body.
0:41:37 > 0:41:43# I wanna perfect soul.
0:41:43 > 0:41:48THE HOLLIES: # Peace came upon me.
0:41:48 > 0:41:54# And it leaves me weak.
0:41:54 > 0:41:59RADIOHEAD: # She's running out.
0:41:59 > 0:42:07# She's run, run, run, ruuuuuun.
0:42:07 > 0:42:11THE HOLLIES: # All I need is the air that I breathe.
0:42:11 > 0:42:19# Yes to love you.