0:00:07 > 0:00:09It's always risky to hire the cheapest builder.
0:00:09 > 0:00:12It's true of your new kitchen, and it's true for government
0:00:12 > 0:00:13contracts as well.
0:00:13 > 0:00:17Is there a lesson there, after the death of the giant
0:00:17 > 0:00:19outsourcing contractor Carillion?
0:00:19 > 0:00:25It's quite difficult for ministers
0:00:25 > 0:00:28to go to Parliament and say, oh, we've gone for a more expensive bid
0:00:28 > 0:00:30here, because we thought it was a better bid.
0:00:30 > 0:00:33Outsourcing was loved by Labour in power but Jeremy Corbyn says this
0:00:33 > 0:00:36crisis is a sign it has to go - we'll ask Dame Margaret Hodge
0:00:36 > 0:00:40if she thinks it has much future.
0:00:40 > 0:00:43And this - Hong Kong football fans booing
0:00:43 > 0:00:46the Chinese National Anthem.
0:00:46 > 0:00:49Has Beijing stuck to its promise - made to us - to respect democracy
0:00:49 > 0:00:51after it took back Hong Kong?
0:00:51 > 0:00:55After 30 years, I'm not sure whether the British Government
0:00:55 > 0:00:57still remember Hong Kong, and still remembers the promises
0:00:57 > 0:01:03that they have made.
0:01:03 > 0:01:06We hear from the new leader of the backbench Tory Brexiteers
0:01:06 > 0:01:10on whether we may be heading for a squidgy Brexit.
0:01:10 > 0:01:13And the rise of the specialist cultural sensitivity editor.
0:01:13 > 0:01:16Publishers are employing people just to sniff out anything in their books
0:01:16 > 0:01:20that someone might find offensive.
0:01:20 > 0:01:23Is this new front in the culture war a modern necessity,
0:01:23 > 0:01:25or dangerous censorship?
0:01:33 > 0:01:34Hello.
0:01:34 > 0:01:37So, today, the Carillion blame game.
0:01:37 > 0:01:40The world has not fallen in, yet, but the horror of the company
0:01:40 > 0:01:43Carillion going bust with we now know a mere £29 million
0:01:43 > 0:01:47in the bank, with so many contracts in operation,
0:01:47 > 0:01:50so many smaller suppliers unpaid, so much unfunded pension commitment
0:01:50 > 0:01:53and so many workers jobs dependent on it -
0:01:53 > 0:01:56all while it has found the money in the recent past
0:01:56 > 0:02:00to handsomely reward its executives and make big dividend payouts.
0:02:00 > 0:02:02The Government knows the optics don't look good
0:02:02 > 0:02:05and has asked for an accelerated investigation into the actions
0:02:05 > 0:02:09of the directors.
0:02:09 > 0:02:11Jeremy Corbyn thinks it makes a bigger point about trying
0:02:11 > 0:02:13to contract everything out.
0:02:13 > 0:02:15Time to bring it in house, he says.
0:02:15 > 0:02:19But for the moment, contracts rule in the public sector -
0:02:19 > 0:02:21from prisons and schools, you can also see train
0:02:21 > 0:02:22franchises as the same thing.
0:02:22 > 0:02:25Some private companies make a mint.
0:02:25 > 0:02:30Others - as Carillion knows - operate on dangerously thin margins.
0:02:30 > 0:02:36So is it possible for contracting out to ever work well?
0:02:36 > 0:02:42Here's Helen Thomas.
0:02:42 > 0:02:4730,000 businesses, hundreds of millions of pounds owed. Across the
0:02:47 > 0:02:53country, companies working on Carillion's private sector jobs are
0:02:53 > 0:02:56wondering what happens when Government support ends. Then, the
0:02:56 > 0:02:59scale of the damage from the company's dramatic collapse could
0:02:59 > 0:03:05become clear. But there are tough questions starting to be asked in
0:03:05 > 0:03:07Westminster. About a third of government spending goes through
0:03:07 > 0:03:13external suppliers. So, has the Government got a good handle on who
0:03:13 > 0:03:18is building roads and hospitals, or providing crucial public services?
0:03:18 > 0:03:20And have passed lessons about the pitfalls of dealing with private
0:03:20 > 0:03:28companies been learned? About £250 billion of government spending goes
0:03:28 > 0:03:32through external suppliers, according to estimates from the
0:03:32 > 0:03:36National Audit Office. 136 billion of that is spending by central
0:03:36 > 0:03:41government departments and the NHS. But the NAO notes that the
0:03:41 > 0:03:45Government is no clear figure for the amount it spends through
0:03:45 > 0:03:47commercial relationships. Decisions about what to outsource and how are
0:03:47 > 0:03:52often made within different departments. One concern is that
0:03:52 > 0:03:57there has not been enough central management of the whole process.
0:03:57 > 0:04:00Open book accounting clauses in contracts give the Government access
0:04:00 > 0:04:04to confidential information, that helps track what is happening to the
0:04:04 > 0:04:11taxpayer's pounds. But a survey in 2014 found only 31% of contracts
0:04:11 > 0:04:17have open book clauses. For only 19% of contracts have the Government
0:04:17 > 0:04:23received the relevant data and taken steps to verify it. A 2014 report by
0:04:23 > 0:04:26the Public Accounts Committee recommended open book accounting to
0:04:26 > 0:04:31help scrutiny, greater transparency and better information on contracts
0:04:31 > 0:04:38and their performance, focus on encouraging new and smaller entrance
0:04:38 > 0:04:41in to boost competition, investment in developing Cabinet Office and
0:04:41 > 0:04:46departmental expertise, and, crucially, contingency plans on all
0:04:46 > 0:04:52contracts, should a supplier failed. A follow up by the committee chaired
0:04:52 > 0:04:58by Meg Hillier in 2016 called the pace of change disappointing.We see
0:04:58 > 0:05:01repeatedly the same things, failure of contract letting, failure of
0:05:01 > 0:05:04contract management and companies that promised more than they can
0:05:04 > 0:05:08deliver for the price. Really, there is still a very long way for
0:05:08 > 0:05:12Government to go. The system isn't working. There are too few large
0:05:12 > 0:05:16companies bidding for the contracts. They get good at bidding, but there
0:05:16 > 0:05:18is no guarantee that being good at bidding is good at running the
0:05:18 > 0:05:24service.But companies in the sector would agree that change is needed.
0:05:24 > 0:05:27Years of austerity and the drive to cut costs has put the sector under
0:05:27 > 0:05:32pressure. This chart shows operating profit margins for the UK
0:05:32 > 0:05:37construction sector. Construction was the part of Carillion's business
0:05:37 > 0:05:41that generated the most losses, and the largest contractors have been
0:05:41 > 0:05:47making lower margins still, argue industry bodies.
0:05:47 > 0:05:50industry bodies. AMA research puts the industry-standard profit margins
0:05:50 > 0:05:56at 2% to 3% in construction, and maybe 3% to 5% in support services.
0:05:56 > 0:06:00But the reality is that those remain a target for some in a sector
0:06:00 > 0:06:04littered with profit warnings and restructurings. One former executive
0:06:04 > 0:06:08told me that margins had come under pressure across all outsourcing
0:06:08 > 0:06:12sectors will stop that has happened as companies have been asked to take
0:06:12 > 0:06:17on more risk, and, some contracts have become impossibly complicated.
0:06:17 > 0:06:22A less flexible client, the Government had also made it harder
0:06:22 > 0:06:26to react as problems arose. It is time, this person said, for a
0:06:26 > 0:06:31fundamental rethink.The Government has been developing an increasingly
0:06:31 > 0:06:34sophisticated appreciation that the lowest bidder is not necessarily the
0:06:34 > 0:06:41best. But it is quite difficult for ministers to go to Parliament and
0:06:41 > 0:06:44say, we have gone for a more expensive bid because we thought it
0:06:44 > 0:06:52was a better one, but I think maybe this instance will liven Parliament
0:06:52 > 0:06:58to the need for Government to look more intelligently and these bids.
0:06:58 > 0:07:02With promises of hearings and inquiries, dealings between the
0:07:02 > 0:07:04Government and its biggest suppliers will soon be getting much more
0:07:04 > 0:07:07scrutiny.
0:07:08 > 0:07:11We did ask the Government to join us tonight, but there
0:07:11 > 0:07:13was nobody available.
0:07:13 > 0:07:16But we have our own Newsnight experts here to make sense of this -
0:07:16 > 0:07:18political editor Nick Watt, business editor Helen Thomas
0:07:18 > 0:07:25and our policy editor Chris Cook.
0:07:25 > 0:07:29Nick, what are you hearing tonight about where this is going?I
0:07:29 > 0:07:33understand that tonight the Government is planning to extend the
0:07:33 > 0:07:3748-hour period in which it will fund the official receiver to look at
0:07:37 > 0:07:43private contractors, what are known as the private sector counterparties
0:07:43 > 0:07:46to Carillion to see whether they want to basically accept the
0:07:46 > 0:07:50termination of contracts, or whether they want to pay for the ongoing
0:07:50 > 0:07:53costs. I am hearing talk in Whitehall that there have been talks
0:07:53 > 0:07:56with the Treasury, they want to be flexible, it is taking time to go
0:07:56 > 0:08:00through these contracts. They want to give them more time. But this
0:08:00 > 0:08:06will not be indefinitely...And they won't call it a bailout?It will not
0:08:06 > 0:08:10be the same as the support they are providing for the official receiver.
0:08:10 > 0:08:13This is a contract where the government battle has no stake, they
0:08:13 > 0:08:19are basically helping the receivers. On other aspects of this whole
0:08:19 > 0:08:25thing, where is it going to go now? It will take time to work out where
0:08:25 > 0:08:28the pain is going to come any supply chain, who is going to lay off
0:08:28 > 0:08:31people, and there will be lay-offs, and who might be taking financial
0:08:31 > 0:08:36hits. As we touched on earlier, Greg Clarke, the Business Secretary, has
0:08:36 > 0:08:40called for two investigations, one into the Carillion accounts, and the
0:08:40 > 0:08:44reporting to Europe to the profit warning in July, and also the
0:08:44 > 0:08:47conduct towards its collapse, including by current and former
0:08:47 > 0:08:53directors. We are assuming every aspect of this will be probed.
0:08:53 > 0:08:57Corporate governance in the company, including pay and board oversight,
0:08:57 > 0:09:02and there are various people around politics today promising to have
0:09:02 > 0:09:06people in front of committees and for them to be pretty fiery. You
0:09:06 > 0:09:10know, there will always be this lingering question of if the
0:09:10 > 0:09:13Government should be more aware of what was going on along the
0:09:13 > 0:09:17Carillion business. A rival company, into serve, launched a legal
0:09:17 > 0:09:22challenge in 2014 into the award of a contract by the minute job
0:09:22 > 0:09:29defence, £4 billion. The contract went to Carillion, and the rival
0:09:29 > 0:09:36said that the kids were abnormally low and could be undeliverable. --
0:09:36 > 0:09:42the bids.Whitehall insiders will be having lots of concessions about the
0:09:42 > 0:09:46meanings of this. A lot of them will not be agreeing with Jeremy Corbyn
0:09:46 > 0:09:53that it is the end of our outsourcing.Didn't think it is the
0:09:53 > 0:09:56end of outsourcing. That is clear. The big thing I keep hearing about
0:09:56 > 0:10:03his concentration. They bring up how frustrating it is that the market is
0:10:03 > 0:10:06so concentrated with outsourcing. There are relatively few players of
0:10:06 > 0:10:09a scale large enough to take on the kind of contracts that the
0:10:09 > 0:10:12Government likes to deliver. They also think that things are currently
0:10:12 > 0:10:18in hand, they think that pensions are going to be dealt with by the
0:10:18 > 0:10:21pension protection fund, they think public contracts will be picked up
0:10:21 > 0:10:25and be OK. Obviously problems with the supply chain. This isn't the
0:10:25 > 0:10:29sort of Lehman Brothers catastrophe. The problem for them in the
0:10:29 > 0:10:34short-term is, actually, if you look at the Serco share price, it has
0:10:34 > 0:10:40gone up.A big rival?Yes, because things are easier for them, there is
0:10:40 > 0:10:45one fewer bidder in the market.Are they seeing big changes to
0:10:45 > 0:10:48outsourcing now?Not in the short-term, not under this
0:10:48 > 0:10:51government. The big thing worth remembering is that there are
0:10:51 > 0:10:54reasons that people outsource which are not just about chiselling at the
0:10:54 > 0:10:58cost. Do you have the strategic capacity to do something? The civil
0:10:58 > 0:11:02service does not want to have a senior manager in charge of doing HR
0:11:02 > 0:11:05for the people that maintain own buildings. They are not interested
0:11:05 > 0:11:08in that and they cannot foresee doing that.Thanks, all of you,
0:11:08 > 0:11:10thank you very much.
0:11:10 > 0:11:13Now I'm joined by Dame Margaret Hodge, the Labour MP who chaired
0:11:13 > 0:11:15the Public Accounts Committee in 2014 when it produced a report
0:11:15 > 0:11:18on outsourcing public services to the private sector.
0:11:18 > 0:11:22Do you think the collapse of Carillion is the sign of a system
0:11:22 > 0:11:25working, that a company that perhaps was not very well run has gone out
0:11:25 > 0:11:29of business? That happens. Or is it a sign of systemic failure?I think
0:11:29 > 0:11:35it is more of a sign of systemic failure. We looked at this through
0:11:35 > 0:11:38four years back, and I don't think what has changed. According to Meg
0:11:38 > 0:11:42Hillier, it hasn't. We found a number of things, actually what the
0:11:42 > 0:11:46Government was doing in trying to create a market, it was almost
0:11:46 > 0:11:50destroying the market because it was killing off a lot of smaller
0:11:50 > 0:11:58suppliers of public services and allowing these very big oligarch
0:11:58 > 0:12:02companies, that were very good at winning contracts, to run public
0:12:02 > 0:12:06services that they were less good at. We also found there isn't enough
0:12:06 > 0:12:11transparency. You can sort this out. If you want to play in the public
0:12:11 > 0:12:15sector market and you are using taxpayer's money, you ought to be
0:12:15 > 0:12:18open. So you shouldn't be able to hide behind commercial
0:12:18 > 0:12:23confidentiality.The government Marco can say we will make it open?
0:12:23 > 0:12:31And they should. When we talked to four of the big players, they were
0:12:31 > 0:12:35willing to do that. The other thing is the civil service capability. We
0:12:35 > 0:12:38all know that it's really isn't there. It is unrealistic to think we
0:12:38 > 0:12:42are going to get rid of outsourcing. Over half of the service is now
0:12:42 > 0:12:48provided by the tax payer, this is not, you know, tax relief or
0:12:48 > 0:12:51benefits, pensions, but the services, over half of them are
0:12:51 > 0:12:56provided by private providers. You cannot shift back.Your leader,
0:12:56 > 0:12:59Jeremy Corbyn, has used the word fleecing the public, because the
0:12:59 > 0:13:04companies take big profits out of the delivery of public services. It
0:13:04 > 0:13:06honestly doesn't sound like they are taking very big profits. Carillion
0:13:06 > 0:13:19was struggling to survive. Which is the problem? The margins are
0:13:19 > 0:13:23the problem? The margins are or too fat?There is too much ideology,
0:13:23 > 0:13:26money conservatives, there is an ideology. They believe that the
0:13:26 > 0:13:29private sector can deliver more efficiency. Chris Grayling is
0:13:29 > 0:13:35probably the main proponent of this, and you have seen a disaster in the
0:13:35 > 0:13:38probation service. On the left, there is an ideology that it has to
0:13:38 > 0:13:42be the public sector that always delivers, and that becomes to
0:13:42 > 0:13:46produce a lead. We need to think of the user, the citizen and patient.
0:13:46 > 0:13:54It is much easier for me to go and get my flu jab from Boots. Is that
0:13:54 > 0:13:57outsourcing or privatisation? It works for me as a citizen. We ought
0:13:57 > 0:14:03to think about how we can construct these services.There is a big point
0:14:03 > 0:14:08here, outsourcing is linked to the big economy. They, respect for
0:14:08 > 0:14:11companies push something like cleaning or catering into agencies,
0:14:11 > 0:14:15they don't give pensions, they maybe have shorter contracts with staff.
0:14:15 > 0:14:22The map -- gig economy is the result. You don't think that has
0:14:22 > 0:14:28gone too far? The marketisation of all aspects of life?I think I do.
0:14:28 > 0:14:31We have to make this work, because there is too much delivered through
0:14:31 > 0:14:34private companies. You have to have the transparency and create a
0:14:34 > 0:14:38market. That means a government backed or changing the way tenders.
0:14:38 > 0:14:41If you are a small company, there was no way you can go to that
0:14:41 > 0:14:48expensive process they have to skill of the civil service and then you
0:14:48 > 0:14:51have to to have ethical standards by behalf on these big companies. That
0:14:51 > 0:14:54involves things like making sure they employ people properly, we
0:14:54 > 0:14:58ought to be regulated, codes of practice and pay taxes, all of that
0:14:58 > 0:15:03sort of thing. Don't lie about how they are delivering the services.
0:15:03 > 0:15:07And I think if we did that, outsourcing could work better. We've
0:15:07 > 0:15:12also got to move from the ideology to apply that bad, public good, and
0:15:12 > 0:15:14move to putting the citizen at the heart of delivering services.
0:15:14 > 0:15:20Margaret Hodge, editors, thank you.
0:15:20 > 0:15:22Before Britain exited Hong Kong two decades ago,
0:15:22 > 0:15:25it said it would be keeping a close watch on its former colony
0:15:25 > 0:15:27once it was to be in Chinese hands.
0:15:27 > 0:15:30We had signed a Joint Declaration with China, that said for 50
0:15:30 > 0:15:34years, the freedoms Hong Kong enjoyed would be preserved.
0:15:34 > 0:15:37John Major said that in the event of any breach of that
0:15:37 > 0:15:41agreement by the Chinese, Britain would pursue every
0:15:41 > 0:15:44legal and other avenue available to challenge it.
0:15:44 > 0:15:46Well, there are some who look at Hong Kong now,
0:15:46 > 0:15:48and observe Chinese restrictions on democracy and free
0:15:48 > 0:15:49speech slowly creeping in.
0:15:49 > 0:15:52Tonight, student pro-democracy leaders there -
0:15:52 > 0:15:55including Joshua Wong - are awaiting the outcome
0:15:55 > 0:15:57of their final appeal to overturn prison sentences for their roles
0:15:57 > 0:16:00in sparking 2014's massive pro-democracy protests.
0:16:00 > 0:16:01Should Britain step into the breach?
0:16:01 > 0:16:09Danny Vincent reports from Hong Kong.
0:16:12 > 0:16:17Every day 35,000 people take the ferry to Kowloon.
0:16:17 > 0:16:21And Hong Kongers enjoy rights unique in China.
0:16:21 > 0:16:26Thanks to the terms of 1997 handover, Beijing
0:16:26 > 0:16:28can't interfere in internal matters.
0:16:28 > 0:16:33There's even a mini-constitution - known as the "basic law".
0:16:33 > 0:16:37But many worry that Beijing is dramatically
0:16:37 > 0:16:40undermining that agreement, that democracy activists are being locked
0:16:40 > 0:16:45up and that Britain is looking the other way.
0:16:45 > 0:16:47We're on our way to a new development -
0:16:47 > 0:16:50the railway station that will be the new terminus for a
0:16:50 > 0:16:52high speed railway link connecting Hong Kong to mainland China.
0:16:52 > 0:16:56It's raising serious concerns over Hong
0:16:56 > 0:16:58Kong's autonomy, because inside this station Chinese national law will
0:16:58 > 0:17:06apply, not Hong Kong law.
0:17:08 > 0:17:11The basic law states that mainland laws can
0:17:11 > 0:17:13not be enforced in Hong Kong.
0:17:13 > 0:17:16But when the new Kowloon rail terminus
0:17:16 > 0:17:19opens later this year, Chinese customs and immigration officials
0:17:19 > 0:17:21will operate inside the station, with powers of search and arrest.
0:17:21 > 0:17:26Tanya Chan has long fought to defend the
0:17:26 > 0:17:29basic law.
0:17:29 > 0:17:32She argues this is the clearest violation yet of the
0:17:32 > 0:17:36territory's legal independence.
0:17:36 > 0:17:37This is absolutely the worst precedent,
0:17:37 > 0:17:42the worst example so far.
0:17:42 > 0:17:43We are actually putting Chinese officials
0:17:43 > 0:17:49in the heart of Hong Kong and now this is the very first time that in
0:17:49 > 0:17:55Hong Kong we are going to apply national law.
0:17:55 > 0:17:58Thousands demonstrated against the plan on New Year's Day.
0:17:58 > 0:18:02The basic law is a list of rights - including freedom of
0:18:02 > 0:18:07speech, of the press, freedom to demonstrate.
0:18:07 > 0:18:10They fear the plans for the station are the thin end of the
0:18:10 > 0:18:12wedge and Britain is not standing by its international obligations to
0:18:12 > 0:18:17protect their rights.
0:18:17 > 0:18:19I'm not sure whether the British Government still
0:18:19 > 0:18:21remembers Hong Kong and still remembers the promises that they
0:18:21 > 0:18:24have made.
0:18:24 > 0:18:26The British Government definitely has a role to play and
0:18:26 > 0:18:29definitely can make their comments and raise their concerns.
0:18:29 > 0:18:37We are waiting for them.
0:18:38 > 0:18:40Three years, ago the "umbrella" protest brought tens of
0:18:40 > 0:18:43thousands on to the streets over Beijing's control of the candidates
0:18:43 > 0:18:48for Hong Kong's leadership.
0:18:48 > 0:18:50They were led by students like Joshua
0:18:50 > 0:18:52Wong, but the protests failed and Beijing still
0:18:52 > 0:18:57controls who leads Hong Kong.
0:18:57 > 0:18:59So the students started their own party to campaign for
0:18:59 > 0:19:03more democracy.
0:19:03 > 0:19:05Joshua Wong and fellow activist Nathan Law believe the
0:19:05 > 0:19:07court system is no longer independent and it's been used
0:19:07 > 0:19:10against them.
0:19:10 > 0:19:12They have both been imprisoned for public
0:19:12 > 0:19:14order offences.
0:19:14 > 0:19:17Now, they're out on bail, but a hearing tomorrow could put
0:19:17 > 0:19:18Joshua back in prison.
0:19:18 > 0:19:20And he said he was interrogated naked
0:19:20 > 0:19:24when he was last in custody.
0:19:24 > 0:19:26As a young prisoner, I served my prison
0:19:26 > 0:19:32sentence inside the highest security prison in Hong Kong.
0:19:32 > 0:19:34At the same time, they even urged me to take off
0:19:34 > 0:19:36all my clothes when I need to answer the question.
0:19:36 > 0:19:40They just treat us...
0:19:40 > 0:19:44Like a dog instead of a human.
0:19:44 > 0:19:46There are suspicions that Triad gang members are paid
0:19:46 > 0:19:49to intimidate activists.
0:19:49 > 0:19:51Joshua says prison inmates told him that they had been
0:19:51 > 0:19:55told to attack the umbrella movement.
0:19:55 > 0:19:59When I was serving the prison sentence in jail, I met a lot
0:19:59 > 0:20:01of inmates who claimed they had background,
0:20:01 > 0:20:06come from the gangster and they receive money to attack
0:20:06 > 0:20:11or physically assault us during umbrella movement.
0:20:11 > 0:20:15Joshua doesn't know who paid them.
0:20:15 > 0:20:18The prison authorities deny mistreatment and we were unable to
0:20:18 > 0:20:25speak to prisoners to confirm the claim of intimidation.
0:20:25 > 0:20:26Those who fight for Hong Kong's legal
0:20:26 > 0:20:31independence say they're also fighting for its cultural identity.
0:20:31 > 0:20:34I am meeting someone who may well be at the heart of the next
0:20:34 > 0:20:40flashpoint.
0:20:40 > 0:20:42Hong Kong football fans have been booing the Chinese national
0:20:42 > 0:20:46anthem when it's played at home games.
0:20:46 > 0:20:50Now, Beijing has told Hong Kong to criminalise the jeering.
0:20:50 > 0:20:53The national anthem is not representation of Hong Kong...
0:20:53 > 0:20:56Jack and hundreds like him will be breaking the law
0:20:56 > 0:20:57if they carry on booing.
0:20:57 > 0:21:01Why do football fans boo the Chinese national anthem?
0:21:01 > 0:21:04We don't think that we are Chinese, we are
0:21:04 > 0:21:06Hong Kong.
0:21:06 > 0:21:08The difference is that Hong Kong has democracy and also we
0:21:08 > 0:21:15have the right of speech and right of demonstration in Hong Kong.
0:21:15 > 0:21:18This was at a game between Hong Kong and
0:21:18 > 0:21:20Bahrain.
0:21:20 > 0:21:22Fans could be imprisoned for three years.
0:21:22 > 0:21:24New laws could be applied retrospectively.
0:21:24 > 0:21:27Critics say this contradicts the basic law in
0:21:27 > 0:21:30terms of freedom of expression, applying Chinese national law
0:21:30 > 0:21:33and applying it retrospectively.
0:21:33 > 0:21:35But Jack is defiant.
0:21:35 > 0:21:37Can they stop you disrespecting the Chinese
0:21:37 > 0:21:38national anthem?
0:21:38 > 0:21:43No.
0:21:43 > 0:21:45At West Kowloon Magistrates Court, nine more activists
0:21:45 > 0:21:48face public order charges.
0:21:48 > 0:21:51All were key figure in the umbrella protests.
0:21:51 > 0:21:55Tanya Chan, who opposes Chinese law in the new rail station, is one of
0:21:55 > 0:21:58the defendants.
0:21:58 > 0:22:00In fact, over 50 democracy activists and elected
0:22:00 > 0:22:02law-makers currently face court cases that could bar them from
0:22:02 > 0:22:07office or see them locked up.
0:22:07 > 0:22:09This is just one hearing in a series of
0:22:09 > 0:22:12legal moves against the activists.
0:22:12 > 0:22:14Professors, student leaders and local politicians are all going
0:22:14 > 0:22:17through the courts.
0:22:17 > 0:22:22And all of them could face prison time.
0:22:22 > 0:22:25This case is seen as a clear warning to every
0:22:25 > 0:22:27level of Hong Kong's democracy camp - the umbrella movement must
0:22:27 > 0:22:30be crushed.
0:22:30 > 0:22:33People who lead protests against Beijing must be prepared to
0:22:33 > 0:22:39face jail and, by using the courts, the tool is the legal system itself.
0:22:39 > 0:22:42We are defending our right to have demonstrations, freedom of
0:22:42 > 0:22:44expression and very important is our right to have our own
0:22:44 > 0:22:52choice of government.
0:22:54 > 0:22:56But there is substantial opposition to the democracy
0:22:56 > 0:22:59activists in Hong Kong.
0:22:59 > 0:23:03Pro-Beijing candidates here command the largest
0:23:03 > 0:23:06number of seats in the partly-elected local chamber.
0:23:06 > 0:23:09Regina Ip is is a strong supporter of mainland China.
0:23:09 > 0:23:12She says those who argue the basic law is under threat are being
0:23:12 > 0:23:16legal fundamentalists.
0:23:16 > 0:23:18In a free society like Hong Kong, with a wide
0:23:18 > 0:23:23range of different opinions, we have among our citizenry people who you
0:23:23 > 0:23:26might call "fundamentalists" you know, legal and
0:23:26 > 0:23:31judicial fundamentalists, who believe in sticking to every
0:23:31 > 0:23:34letter of the basic law.
0:23:34 > 0:23:38Many pan-democrats in Hong Kong feel that
0:23:38 > 0:23:41the Government and perhaps Beijing are targeting them and carrying out
0:23:41 > 0:23:46somewhat of a political persecution.
0:23:46 > 0:23:48What do you say to that?
0:23:48 > 0:23:51We have no political offences in Hong Kong.
0:23:51 > 0:23:56If people are charged for disrupting public order, incitement or
0:23:56 > 0:24:01disturbance, that is all based on common law and common law
0:24:01 > 0:24:03principles and the statutory laws that we
0:24:03 > 0:24:08inherited from Britain.
0:24:08 > 0:24:12I think these accusations are totally ungrounded.
0:24:12 > 0:24:16Hong Kong's autonomy was enshrined in the basic law, but the
0:24:16 > 0:24:19criminalisation of the umbrella protesters and others who challenge
0:24:19 > 0:24:22Beijing does raise questions about the rule of law in the territory.
0:24:22 > 0:24:24It also raises questions about Britain's commitment to the people
0:24:24 > 0:24:31and the system it once pledged to protect.
0:24:31 > 0:24:32Danny Vincent there.
0:24:32 > 0:24:34We did try to speak to the Chinese Government
0:24:34 > 0:24:37and the the British government about this story, but nobody
0:24:37 > 0:24:42was available from either.
0:24:42 > 0:24:45The EU has been sounding both tough and tender as regards Brexit today.
0:24:45 > 0:24:47In a speech to the Parliament today, the President
0:24:47 > 0:24:55of the Council Donald Tusk did the tender bit.
0:24:59 > 0:25:03David Davis said if a democracy cannot change its mind it ceases to
0:25:03 > 0:25:08be a democracy. We here on the continent haven't had a change of
0:25:08 > 0:25:12heart. Our hearts are still open to you.
0:25:34 > 0:25:44Forget the idea that we will set our own fishing quotas. Each state is
0:25:44 > 0:25:48piling their own issues into the negotiations. Nick Watt is back us
0:25:48 > 0:25:54with. Why didn't Michel Barnier come out with that our heart is open.It
0:25:54 > 0:25:59was Donald Tusk and sometimes you need to set his words to music. But
0:25:59 > 0:26:06what he said was music to the ears of a small number of Remain
0:26:06 > 0:26:11supporters who are seeking to reverse Brexit. What they need is
0:26:11 > 0:26:15Brussels to say, we would like to have you back and the reason why
0:26:15 > 0:26:20they need that is by the time of the autumn when we will have this deal,
0:26:20 > 0:26:27they want the British people to see two options - the new deal or the
0:26:27 > 0:26:33existing membership and they're talking about ways of defeating
0:26:33 > 0:26:41Brexit.Is this going to happen?I was speaking to a member of the
0:26:41 > 0:26:45cabinet who supported Remain, who said you couldn't see it happening
0:26:45 > 0:26:51unless public opinion shifted dramatically. 60-40 in favour of
0:26:51 > 0:27:00Remain, it not really shifting.
0:27:00 > 0:27:02One of the most most vocal supporters of Brexit has been
0:27:02 > 0:27:04the Tory backbencher Jacob Rees Mogg.
0:27:04 > 0:27:07He was rewarded for his work in this area today by being appointed
0:27:07 > 0:27:09Chairman of the party's influential European Research Group -
0:27:09 > 0:27:12a sort of internal lobbying grouping which works to push for a
0:27:12 > 0:27:13hard Brexit.
0:27:13 > 0:27:16I spoke to him earlier and I put it to him that
0:27:16 > 0:27:18despite President Tusk's comments earlier, the EU was preparing to be
0:27:18 > 0:27:21pretty tough and uncompromising for the next round of negotiations
0:27:21 > 0:27:24Well, I'm all in favour of being tough and uncompromising.
0:27:24 > 0:27:25I want a proper Brexit.
0:27:25 > 0:27:27I want us to leave the European Union,
0:27:27 > 0:27:28heart, soul and mind.
0:27:28 > 0:27:31I don't want us to have the sort of Brexit where, because they've
0:27:31 > 0:27:34given us all sorts of baubles, we have stayed in bits
0:27:34 > 0:27:36that deny us freedom.
0:27:36 > 0:27:41The key thing is coming up with the trade negotiation now.
0:27:41 > 0:27:44It is so important that we maintain the flexibility to do deals
0:27:44 > 0:27:46with other countries, that were not so bound
0:27:46 > 0:27:49in by the EU's requirements that we can't get the benefits
0:27:49 > 0:27:53of cheaper food, clothing and footwear, that will flow
0:27:53 > 0:27:56from setting up our own trading relationships.
0:27:56 > 0:28:01So, their being tough may actually push us into a clearer Brexit.
0:28:01 > 0:28:03Could we talk about the transition?
0:28:03 > 0:28:05Because the Government is pretty keen on a transition,
0:28:05 > 0:28:08or implementation.
0:28:08 > 0:28:12The EU, all signs are, from the draft negotiating
0:28:12 > 0:28:14positions, they're going to be really tough.
0:28:14 > 0:28:16Well, I think the language is really important.
0:28:16 > 0:28:19Is it an implimentation period which the Government is asking for,
0:28:19 > 0:28:21or is it a transition?
0:28:21 > 0:28:24If it is an implimentation period, we've left the EU and we are
0:28:24 > 0:28:26implementing the consequences.
0:28:26 > 0:28:29That is to say it might take time to put in new immigration
0:28:29 > 0:28:30queues at Heathrow.
0:28:30 > 0:28:32And, until that's done, we're implementing.
0:28:32 > 0:28:37If it's a transition, we are in fact still in the European Union.
0:28:37 > 0:28:40If they set our fishing quotas, if new laws coming in from the EU
0:28:40 > 0:28:44affect the UK, if the ECJ still has jurisdiction, it would be untrue
0:28:44 > 0:28:45to say we have left.
0:28:45 > 0:28:48It would be an extension of our membership.
0:28:48 > 0:28:52If that is what the Government should want to do, it should do it
0:28:52 > 0:28:54under the terms of Article 50 and be honest about it.
0:28:54 > 0:28:57It would be a deceit to have a transition that kept us
0:28:57 > 0:29:00in the EU for two years by default.
0:29:00 > 0:29:03And you wouldn't necessarily be against extending our membership
0:29:03 > 0:29:06for two years to get everything sorted out, but you want
0:29:06 > 0:29:09honesty about that if that is what the plan is?
0:29:09 > 0:29:11Because the EU, by the way, is in no doubt at all,
0:29:11 > 0:29:14it is an extension of membership by another name.
0:29:14 > 0:29:16I would be opposed to extension of membership.
0:29:16 > 0:29:17An implimentation period is fine.
0:29:17 > 0:29:20A transition period is not.
0:29:20 > 0:29:21The Prime Minister, who I fully support,
0:29:21 > 0:29:24has been very careful to say implementation period...
0:29:24 > 0:29:28But you're just using the language that you know is going to appeal
0:29:28 > 0:29:30to you, business just hears transitional arrangement.
0:29:30 > 0:29:32They don't make any distinct at all.
0:29:32 > 0:29:36No, it's very important to focus on the details.
0:29:36 > 0:29:38The Prime Minister is a person of great precision.
0:29:38 > 0:29:39She doesn't use language loosely.
0:29:39 > 0:29:42And she has invariably said implimentation,
0:29:42 > 0:29:45and she has said that we will leave on the 29th of March 2019,
0:29:45 > 0:29:47and I fully support her position.
0:29:47 > 0:29:48Right.
0:29:48 > 0:29:50I wonder how you interpreted Nigel Farage's comments
0:29:50 > 0:29:52on a second referendum.
0:29:52 > 0:29:56Because that, again, was seen by some as a kind of sign
0:29:56 > 0:29:59of nervousness on the Brexit side that it's just slipping
0:29:59 > 0:30:04away, potentially.
0:30:04 > 0:30:06I don't know why Mr Farage decide to say he wanted
0:30:06 > 0:30:07a second referendum.
0:30:07 > 0:30:10One of the interesting things about polling on this
0:30:10 > 0:30:12at the moment is that people, they broadly haven't changed from
0:30:12 > 0:30:15where they were in the referendum, but on the question do you want
0:30:15 > 0:30:21another referendum, everyone in this country is Brenda from Bristol.
0:30:21 > 0:30:24There is no appetite for another referendum.
0:30:24 > 0:30:27As it happens, I think there would be real anger
0:30:27 > 0:30:29if there was a second one, because we're not one
0:30:29 > 0:30:34of those smaller EU states, that when we vote to give the answer
0:30:34 > 0:30:37that the EU doesn't like get told to vote again and again
0:30:37 > 0:30:40until we do as we're told, like good little boys.
0:30:40 > 0:30:42Therefore I think, if there was a second
0:30:42 > 0:30:45referendum, you would see considerable popular discontent.
0:30:45 > 0:30:49You're now running the ERG, the European Reform Group.
0:30:49 > 0:30:52This is about 60 Tory MPs, on the more Brexit side,
0:30:52 > 0:30:55the Brexit side, let's say.
0:30:55 > 0:30:58Are you going to hold the Government's feet to the fire,
0:30:58 > 0:31:00on all the things we've been talking about?
0:31:00 > 0:31:02The Government's determination to go for a clear Brexit,
0:31:02 > 0:31:08rather than a slightly messier, softer one?
0:31:08 > 0:31:12The ERG is a group of like-minded members of Parliament and it
0:31:12 > 0:31:17provides research to help us with work on European issues.
0:31:17 > 0:31:21I'm very keen to help the Government achieve the policy that it set out,
0:31:21 > 0:31:29and the Prime Minister set out particularly in the Lancaster House
0:31:32 > 0:31:35speech, and encourage a vigorous implimentation of that policy.
0:31:35 > 0:31:37The Government has my personal, complete support in doing that.
0:31:37 > 0:31:38Jacob Rees-Mogg, thanks very much.
0:31:38 > 0:31:39Thank you very much.
0:31:39 > 0:31:42Pretty well anyone who writes anything these days knows how easy
0:31:42 > 0:31:44it is to be unwittingly - or wittingly - offensive.
0:31:44 > 0:31:47In the era of identity politics, it's not hard to trigger a reaction
0:31:47 > 0:31:49that says you are guilty of insensitivity to
0:31:49 > 0:31:50one group or another.
0:31:50 > 0:31:52Now, while some writers thrive on controversy,
0:31:52 > 0:31:54many want to avoid it, and even if they don't
0:31:54 > 0:31:55their publishers might.
0:31:55 > 0:31:58So enter the idea of sensitivity readers.
0:31:58 > 0:32:01People employed to look at a book ahead of publication, to advise
0:32:01 > 0:32:04on potential mis-steps within.
0:32:04 > 0:32:07As always, the US leads in these trends and the American press has
0:32:07 > 0:32:09become quite pre-occupied by the debate as to whether
0:32:09 > 0:32:12sensitivity readers improve books, or censor free speech and indulge
0:32:12 > 0:32:14a noisy Twitter mob too keen to take umbrage at anything.
0:32:14 > 0:32:22Here's Stephen Smith on how it works.
0:32:23 > 0:32:26# I'm mad about good books
0:32:26 > 0:32:30# Can't get my fill...#
0:32:30 > 0:32:33Budding authors have always been told, write about what you know.
0:32:33 > 0:32:36That seems particularly canny advice now, when an imaginative leap
0:32:36 > 0:32:38into unfamiliar territory can lend a writer in trouble for
0:32:38 > 0:32:45misrepresentation or stereotyping.
0:32:45 > 0:32:48Some readers and critics are alert to any real or perceived failures
0:32:48 > 0:32:55of authenticity in areas including race, gender and sexuality.
0:32:55 > 0:32:59So, publishers and writers are turning to so-called
0:32:59 > 0:33:02sensitivity readers, who scan texts before publication
0:33:02 > 0:33:07on the lookout for any missteps that might jar or give offence.
0:33:07 > 0:33:10One author of books for young adults told us she used sensitivity readers
0:33:10 > 0:33:18when she created characters with deafness and selective mutism.
0:33:19 > 0:33:22I have a friend who is deaf, and I also knew somebody who was
0:33:22 > 0:33:24a British sign language interpreter.
0:33:24 > 0:33:26So, they both individually read it and came back
0:33:26 > 0:33:27to me with their notes.
0:33:27 > 0:33:30And then we discussed it together.
0:33:30 > 0:33:33It was to make sure that I was representing, in this case,
0:33:33 > 0:33:36deafness, as authentically and truthfully as possible,
0:33:36 > 0:33:40to make sure that, for people who have experience of it,
0:33:40 > 0:33:45that they would be able to recognise the way I was portraying it.
0:33:45 > 0:33:47But is there a danger that writers and readers
0:33:47 > 0:33:50could become oversensitive?
0:33:50 > 0:33:51That difficult material will simply be avoided
0:33:51 > 0:33:55for fear of giving offence?
0:33:55 > 0:33:58And sensitivities vary, of course.
0:33:58 > 0:34:02Even just about everyone's favourite boy wizard managed to upset some
0:34:02 > 0:34:06over so-called occult themes in the Harry Potter books.
0:34:06 > 0:34:10Right now, young adult readers seemed to be more alive to issues
0:34:10 > 0:34:12of sensitivity than the general book buying public.
0:34:12 > 0:34:14Yes, I think very much so.
0:34:14 > 0:34:18Especially with social media allowing people to have much more
0:34:18 > 0:34:21of a voice than maybe they would have done before,
0:34:21 > 0:34:23and in larger numbers.
0:34:23 > 0:34:28I think it's definitely something that I, as a YA author,
0:34:28 > 0:34:32and friends of mine who are YA authors are very aware of.
0:34:32 > 0:34:34# Sitting and reading
0:34:34 > 0:34:38# Enjoying the breathing of you...#
0:34:38 > 0:34:40As more authors take advice from sensitivity readers,
0:34:40 > 0:34:42some bookworms may be in for a more
0:34:42 > 0:34:45stress-free experience.
0:34:45 > 0:34:48But will that really make for a happy ending?
0:34:53 > 0:34:56Joining me now to discuss is author Laura Moriarty,
0:34:56 > 0:34:59who worked with sensitivity readers on her novel 'American Heart'.
0:34:59 > 0:35:01She's in Kansas.
0:35:01 > 0:35:04And with me in the studio is publisher Sharmaine Lovegrove,
0:35:04 > 0:35:08who heads up London-based Dialogue Books.
0:35:08 > 0:35:15Good evening to you. Laura, you had a curious experience. You worked
0:35:15 > 0:35:21with sensitivity readers, and it was a book with Muslim themes. And there
0:35:21 > 0:35:29was still quite a lot of anger at your book anyway?Exactly. As I was
0:35:29 > 0:35:33writing the book, I actually instinctively did it on my own, I
0:35:33 > 0:35:36asked a Muslim American friend to read the book and I asked some
0:35:36 > 0:35:41Persian American friends to read the books. I even sent the manuscript to
0:35:41 > 0:35:46a friend of a friend in Iran, and she sent her thoughts. I wanted to
0:35:46 > 0:35:50make sure it was authentic and accurate, my depictions of Muslims
0:35:50 > 0:35:57and Iranians. Once I sold the book to Harper, they also hired
0:35:57 > 0:36:02sensitivity readers to go through the book again. I think what is
0:36:02 > 0:36:07interesting is, for me, I didn't mind when Harper said they wanted
0:36:07 > 0:36:10sensitivity readers to go over it again. If I think of it as accuracy
0:36:10 > 0:36:14readers, if I think about someone who has an experience that can look
0:36:14 > 0:36:18at my work and make sure I am being accurate and thoughtful about how I
0:36:18 > 0:36:23depict groups. That is fine with me. I think the biggest misperception is
0:36:23 > 0:36:29that the writers are forced to take every suggestion that the
0:36:29 > 0:36:33sensitivity reader makes. That wasn't the case for me.I just want
0:36:33 > 0:36:41to get... Basically, you agreed the book with the sensitivity readers
0:36:41 > 0:36:44and the publisher, then was a lot of upset. The saviour of the book of
0:36:44 > 0:36:50the Muslims was a white woman, and it was more her story than theirs?
0:36:50 > 0:36:54Right, there were people that were upset, when the description of the
0:36:54 > 0:36:57book came out, that the narrator and the protagonist is a white
0:36:57 > 0:37:10non-Muslim girl. She is very bigoted at the beginning. She has grown up
0:37:10 > 0:37:16in the extremely xenophobic United States.
0:37:20 > 0:37:27States. She overcomes her prejudice by meeting a Muslim.
0:37:27 > 0:37:31What did you make of that story, the book through the sensitivity reader
0:37:31 > 0:37:36and then there was outrage?The question overall is why we need
0:37:36 > 0:37:44sensitivity writers? Who is writing the stories?
0:37:44 > 0:37:47the stories? It seems like a formidable amount of people that
0:37:47 > 0:37:53were involved to make sure that something was correct.
0:37:55 > 0:37:57something was correct. If we have the people employed in the first
0:37:57 > 0:38:05place in publishing houses, it seems like it is from the confidence from
0:38:05 > 0:38:11the publishers as where it has gone wrong. I also question the idea of
0:38:11 > 0:38:14anyone being able to write anything from any perspective, the idea of a
0:38:14 > 0:38:20White saviour with a Muslim, that is complicated.There are issues there.
0:38:20 > 0:38:25The point is that Muslims would not have one view on that, would they?
0:38:25 > 0:38:28You don't necessarily want the noisiest or the most offended people
0:38:28 > 0:38:31to dictate what is published? Or is that not where you end up?
0:38:31 > 0:38:40Absolutely. We have to remember that YA publishing is particularly
0:38:40 > 0:38:44sensitive.Young adults?Yes, because the issues are front-loaded.
0:38:44 > 0:38:47This is about reading for the next generation. We absolutely have to
0:38:47 > 0:38:51get this right. We have to get the reading right, we have to get the
0:38:51 > 0:38:54writing right. We have to listen to the voices that are coming through
0:38:54 > 0:38:59and complaining. Actually, we have to to think who is writing our
0:38:59 > 0:39:04stories, who are our children going to be listing to?Is there a
0:39:04 > 0:39:07problem, forget sensitivity readers, is the problem basically that too
0:39:07 > 0:39:11many publishers and writers are scared of offending people?Well, I
0:39:11 > 0:39:15think that is very much the case right now. I think there is an idea
0:39:15 > 0:39:20that you could possibly hire enough sensitivity readers where nobody
0:39:20 > 0:39:25would be offended, and that is of course impossible. With my book, I
0:39:25 > 0:39:28had my readers, the publishing house hired more, and people were still
0:39:28 > 0:39:33incredibly offended. As you say, there are different sensitivities,
0:39:33 > 0:39:35even within marginalised communities. You're never going to
0:39:35 > 0:39:39please everybody and make everybody happy. I think the focus needs to be
0:39:39 > 0:39:46an authenticity. I would disagree, and I think that while I agree that
0:39:46 > 0:39:49we would like to see more diversity in publishing and writers, I don't
0:39:49 > 0:39:54think that there should be such strict limits on who should tell
0:39:54 > 0:39:58such stories. I think we can imagine each other's lives. My first novel
0:39:58 > 0:40:01was about a girl growing up on welfare, and she was white, and
0:40:01 > 0:40:07nobody ever asked me anything about it.Do you have any worries about
0:40:07 > 0:40:14this being a sort of shutting down, rather than opening up.
0:40:16 > 0:40:19rather than opening up.What we really want to see us diversity in
0:40:19 > 0:40:22publishing, diversity in terms of characters, and confidence from the
0:40:22 > 0:40:29writers. It has to be fair and it has to be pronounced. We need to
0:40:29 > 0:40:32have that in order for the next generation.Thank you both very much
0:40:32 > 0:40:33indeed.
0:40:33 > 0:40:34That's it for tonight.
0:40:34 > 0:40:36But following last week's row when Donald Trump was accused
0:40:36 > 0:40:38of favouring immigrants from Norway over those from Haiti,
0:40:38 > 0:40:41people have been asking just what is it about the liberal
0:40:41 > 0:40:47Norwegians that the President actually likes.
0:40:47 > 0:40:50Now a new theory has emerged online, that Norway is in fact helping
0:40:50 > 0:40:52Mr Trump to maintain his most closely guarded cover-up.
0:40:52 > 0:40:54Judge for yourself.
0:40:54 > 0:41:00Good night.
0:41:00 > 0:41:03DONALD TRUMP:Ricardo Sanchez, on his Spanish drivetime radio
0:41:03 > 0:41:07show in Los Angeles, has taken to calling Donald J Trump
0:41:07 > 0:41:10"The Man of the Toupee".
0:41:10 > 0:41:14This was on the front page of the New York Times.
0:41:14 > 0:41:21I don't wear a toupee. It's my hair!