0:00:07 > 0:00:09Dinner in the Eiffel Tower for Trump.
0:00:09 > 0:00:14A cavalry horse for the Chinese.
0:00:14 > 0:00:16Now, he's bringing us an enormous tapestry.
0:00:16 > 0:00:21Should we beware French presidents bearing gifts?
0:00:21 > 0:00:24Macron's coming to town - but what does he want back?
0:00:24 > 0:00:32We ask the Foreign Office, where next for Anglo-French relationship?
0:00:32 > 0:00:35He will be very tough in defending French interests.
0:00:35 > 0:00:38We ask the Foreign Office, where next for Anglo-French relationship?
0:00:38 > 0:00:40Also tonight, in the wake of the Carillion collapse,
0:00:40 > 0:00:42we ask Labour's shadow business secretary whether the government
0:00:42 > 0:00:44should run outsourced services instead.
0:00:44 > 0:00:48I think, well, what we need to do is examine the most
0:00:48 > 0:00:50cost-effective way for the UK taxpayer, and if...
0:00:50 > 0:00:51But you'd consider it?
0:00:51 > 0:00:52If it's cheaper, yes.
0:00:52 > 0:00:54If it's cheaper, and it's more secure to deliver
0:00:54 > 0:00:59those services in-house, then that is what should happen.
0:00:59 > 0:01:02And we hear from two of the many people who say the predatory Team
0:01:02 > 0:01:10USA gymnastics doctor Larry Nassar assaulted them.
0:01:15 > 0:01:16Good evening.
0:01:16 > 0:01:19The loan of the Bayeaux tapestry - a triumphal celebration of England's
0:01:19 > 0:01:21defeat at the hands of a European army - may strike some
0:01:21 > 0:01:27as rich in symbolism.
0:01:27 > 0:01:29But the gesture by Emmanuel Macron has been hailed
0:01:29 > 0:01:32as diplomatic brilliance.
0:01:32 > 0:01:34France's president arrives here tomorrow.
0:01:34 > 0:01:38He will discuss defence and security with the PM.
0:01:38 > 0:01:40But behind the military welcome at Sandhurst,
0:01:40 > 0:01:43and plans to make Britain pay more for towards the port of Calais,
0:01:43 > 0:01:46there may also be a slight sense of disquiet at the ease
0:01:46 > 0:01:47with which Macron wields his power.
0:01:47 > 0:01:49"We need to develop a kind of political heroism.
0:01:49 > 0:01:52We need to be amenable again to creating grand narratives,"
0:01:52 > 0:01:56he recently told a German newspaper.
0:01:56 > 0:02:00Has he become the de facto leader of Europe?
0:02:00 > 0:02:03And should Britain be worried he holds all the negotiating cards
0:02:03 > 0:02:05when discussions inevitably turn to Brexit?
0:02:05 > 0:02:07Here's our political editor, Nick Watt,
0:02:07 > 0:02:10on the latest Norman conquest.
0:02:10 > 0:02:16Ancient military figures appear to be morphing into diplomats.
0:02:16 > 0:02:22A decade ago, China's Terracotta Army arrived in London
0:02:22 > 0:02:25to herald a new era in Sino-British relations, and now the Bayeux
0:02:25 > 0:02:32Tapestry is due to land on our shores.
0:02:32 > 0:02:35It may be a bloody and gruesome depiction of an English defeat,
0:02:35 > 0:02:41but the ever canny Emmanuel Macron calculates that our affection
0:02:41 > 0:02:43for the medieval masterpiece will allow it to serve as a powerful
0:02:43 > 0:02:48signal of warm relations after Brexit.
0:02:48 > 0:02:50I remember going to see the Bayeux Tapestry.
0:02:50 > 0:02:54I think I was about six, with my mother, and being completely
0:02:54 > 0:03:01entranced by the fact that women had sat and stitched this extraordinary
0:03:01 > 0:03:04story which goes all the way round a room, so that
0:03:04 > 0:03:05long-standing relationship, not always friendly,
0:03:05 > 0:03:07that we've had with the French, but a long-standing,
0:03:07 > 0:03:10and absolutely firm relationship with the French is one that he's
0:03:10 > 0:03:12making a bond which has never been done before,
0:03:12 > 0:03:15by offering this extraordinary piece of work and this story that
0:03:15 > 0:03:16shares our heritage.
0:03:16 > 0:03:21I think it's one of those beautiful relationships
0:03:21 > 0:03:24which does go through ups and downs, admittedly.
0:03:24 > 0:03:28Over the past 1,000 years since the Bayeux Tapestry,
0:03:28 > 0:03:31but which is still, 1,000 years later, incredibly strong,
0:03:31 > 0:03:34and which is a vector and a product for cooperation on issues
0:03:34 > 0:03:38of tremendous importance, which impact both our countries.
0:03:38 > 0:03:41If you want to find a symbol of the entente cordiale,
0:03:41 > 0:03:44you can perhaps do no better than visit this statue
0:03:44 > 0:03:47of Charles de Gaulle, the leader of the free French,
0:03:47 > 0:03:51who was given refuge in London during the Second World War.
0:03:51 > 0:03:54But de Gaulle personally embodies the perennially scratchy nature
0:03:54 > 0:03:59of Anglo-French relations.
0:03:59 > 0:04:02In 1943, Winston Churchill described him as "vain and malignant",
0:04:02 > 0:04:06and two decades later, he vetoed Britain's
0:04:06 > 0:04:14application to join the EEC.
0:04:14 > 0:04:16The legacy of de Gaulle, always to put French interests
0:04:16 > 0:04:19first, even at the cost of ruffling feathers, is upheld by today's
0:04:19 > 0:04:22occupant of the Elysee Palace.
0:04:22 > 0:04:25Behind tomorrow's friendly and cost-free gesture lie some raw
0:04:25 > 0:04:27French calculations about how they can use Brexit
0:04:27 > 0:04:31to their advantage.
0:04:31 > 0:04:35When it comes to French interests, economic interests,
0:04:35 > 0:04:37in the Brexit decisions, he will be hard-headed, and he will
0:04:37 > 0:04:40push for a tough outcome.
0:04:40 > 0:04:42I don't think he wants to have a collapse and a disaster.
0:04:42 > 0:04:46I think he wants an agreement, but yeah, he will be very tough,
0:04:46 > 0:04:51single-minded in defending French interests.
0:04:51 > 0:04:57Yeah, they will say, you can't have your cake and eat it.
0:04:57 > 0:04:59If you're in the single market or aligning yourself
0:04:59 > 0:05:00with the single market, fine.
0:05:00 > 0:05:03If you're not, you can't cherry pick that you want to be in this bit
0:05:03 > 0:05:05and out of that bit.
0:05:05 > 0:05:10And yes, of course, where there's an opportunity of draining jobs
0:05:10 > 0:05:13away from the UK into France, they will be taking it.
0:05:13 > 0:05:16And that gap left by Britain, and the lack of leadership
0:05:16 > 0:05:18in Berlin, has provided President Macron with a space
0:05:18 > 0:05:21to shape his vision for the future of Europe, which he's been
0:05:21 > 0:05:24developing for years.
0:05:24 > 0:05:27There was originally a realisation that Europe in the last ten to 15
0:05:27 > 0:05:30years hasn't progressed fast enough on a certain number of issues,
0:05:30 > 0:05:33and that we needed a new force for proposals, and that was what his
0:05:33 > 0:05:39speech at La Sorbonne, which outlined a whole
0:05:39 > 0:05:41host of potential areas where we could integrate more,
0:05:41 > 0:05:43where we could have more cooperation between European member states,
0:05:43 > 0:05:45and more integration at European level.
0:05:45 > 0:05:47I think, at the moment, on the European scene,
0:05:47 > 0:05:49President Macron is the dominant personality, and he is out there,
0:05:49 > 0:05:53as we've seen, taking initiatives, trying to help in international
0:05:53 > 0:05:57crises, cutting a dash on the world stage, and he is biding his time,
0:05:57 > 0:05:59waiting for there to be a German Chancellor
0:05:59 > 0:06:02that he can got to work with on building Europe.
0:06:02 > 0:06:04Emmanuel Macron will signal tomorrow that France will always
0:06:04 > 0:06:08have a special place for Britain in its affections.
0:06:08 > 0:06:11But, as the UK walks away from the EU, France is already
0:06:11 > 0:06:18looking to new horizons.
0:06:18 > 0:06:19So, how do we deal with Macron?
0:06:19 > 0:06:24Joining me now is Foreign Office minister Harriet Baldwin.
0:06:24 > 0:06:29Very nice of you to come in. The tapestry is lovely but you heard
0:06:29 > 0:06:35that from Peter Ricketts - he is hard-headed and he wants to drain
0:06:35 > 0:06:39jobs away from London, does that worry you?Well, it is a wonderful
0:06:39 > 0:06:44gesture in terms of this tapestry which of course was stitched in
0:06:44 > 0:06:48Canterbury. So, it is good to be wonderful having it back in the UK
0:06:48 > 0:06:52and I would like to thank the president for that. But tomorrow's
0:06:52 > 0:06:57summit will be very much about our mutual interests, our shared project
0:06:57 > 0:07:00in terms of not only prosperity within our respective economies but
0:07:00 > 0:07:05of course, there will be a lot in the summit tomorrow about...
0:07:05 > 0:07:10Interests in terms
0:07:11 > 0:07:14Interests in terms of security and in terms of the atrocities that we
0:07:14 > 0:07:19have both suffered...But he is the man who is looking like the de facto
0:07:19 > 0:07:22leader in Europe right now
0:07:22 > 0:07:23man who is looking like the de facto leader in Europe right now, he's
0:07:23 > 0:07:28going to be hard-headed about this. Lets look at these things. He is due
0:07:28 > 0:07:31Britain to take in more refugee migrants - are we going to do that?
0:07:31 > 0:07:37Theresa May is also a really strong leader in Europe, and she has got a
0:07:37 > 0:07:43very, very clear outline in terms of what she wants to achieve. Do you
0:07:43 > 0:07:48think that...?The trading relationship... In terms of the
0:07:48 > 0:07:52migrant numbers, the refugee numbers, do you think she's going to
0:07:52 > 0:07:56say yes, we will take in more?I think she will point to the very
0:07:56 > 0:08:01strong track record that we have in terms of taking in migrants.But he
0:08:01 > 0:08:04wants more, right?I do not want to pre-empt any of the discussions
0:08:04 > 0:08:08which may take place tomorrow. The Home Secretary will be meeting with
0:08:08 > 0:08:13her counterpart tomorrow.What about him asking for more money, we pay
0:08:13 > 0:08:17for security at the border but we do not pay any more financial
0:08:17 > 0:08:21contribution - will we now be doing that at Calais, is it a fair thing
0:08:21 > 0:08:25for the French to ask?Again I don't want to speculate in terms of some
0:08:25 > 0:08:30of the announcements which may come out tomorrow, because clearly we
0:08:30 > 0:08:34work closely with the French in terms of the border and we have had
0:08:34 > 0:08:36a long-standing co-operation with them on those issues, particularly
0:08:36 > 0:08:42in Calais. It is all about those shared mutual interests that we have
0:08:42 > 0:08:46with France, in terms of not only our mutual border but also, of
0:08:46 > 0:08:56course, the southern area that we share strong interests in that area
0:08:56 > 0:08:57and there will be other announcements tomorrow pointing to
0:08:57 > 0:09:07that.If you accept the premise that France will be the likely
0:09:07 > 0:09:11beneficiary of any jobs lost in the City of London, with Brexit, then is
0:09:11 > 0:09:16it your inclination to say we have to work on far closer alignment to
0:09:16 > 0:09:21the single market to stop those jobs training away, do you see how
0:09:21 > 0:09:27important that could be to stop France taking the premier position?
0:09:27 > 0:09:34I do not accept the Palace of your question.As an ambassador do you
0:09:34 > 0:09:36think he is wrong when he thinks Macron is trying to drain the jobs
0:09:36 > 0:09:41from London?I think he makes a good point about what Macron has already
0:09:41 > 0:09:45publicly said already. I don't think there is anything new in terms of
0:09:45 > 0:09:50some of those things but of course we have such strong shared
0:09:50 > 0:09:53interests, we have a very strong interest in a successful financial
0:09:53 > 0:09:59sector, not only in France but of course the UK is the global hub for
0:09:59 > 0:10:02so much of the world's finance. That's going to continue, and of
0:10:02 > 0:10:08course, it is in Europe's interests for us to have a strong financial
0:10:08 > 0:10:13and global hub here.Do you think we should just say we are prepared to
0:10:13 > 0:10:18accept job losses, this is going to be a brand-new start for the country
0:10:18 > 0:10:22with Brexit, and if it takes a few job losses, we will find others, we
0:10:22 > 0:10:26won't be so dependent on the financial sector?Well, I am going
0:10:26 > 0:10:32to talk about how important that sector is, not only to the UK but
0:10:32 > 0:10:37also to the world, and to Europe. And so there's going to be a
0:10:37 > 0:10:40negotiation to be had about how important that is to our respective
0:10:40 > 0:10:45economies, and the summit tomorrow will be very much focused on the
0:10:45 > 0:10:50mutual interests that we have. We have a very large population of
0:10:50 > 0:10:53French citizens here in the UK and a lot of UK citizens in France, and
0:10:53 > 0:10:57there will be a series of announcements focused on our shared
0:10:57 > 0:11:00interests.The perception is that Macron seems to handle his diplomacy
0:11:00 > 0:11:08with such ease. He pulled off the Trump visit with elegance whilst
0:11:08 > 0:11:11disagreeing with virtually everything he stands for. In
0:11:11 > 0:11:16contrast we leap in the, we hold hands, we stumble around a bit,
0:11:16 > 0:11:20whether there is going to be a state visit or no visit at all, we look
0:11:20 > 0:11:23like we're tearing our hair out on this one?Think we're being
0:11:23 > 0:11:31incredibly negative and pessimistic and BBC like there, Emily! The first
0:11:31 > 0:11:36person to get over to meet Mr Trump after he was elected was the British
0:11:36 > 0:11:38Prime Minister Annable you don't think we're in a mess with the state
0:11:38 > 0:11:43visit? I think she's had some fantastic state visits.With
0:11:43 > 0:11:47President Trump?As you know we have invited him to return, and those are
0:11:47 > 0:11:53ongoing.I don't want to be BBC like, I'm just trying to work out
0:11:53 > 0:11:57whether we are bargaining President Trump now, whether that state visit
0:11:57 > 0:12:01that we heard about is still extended by a deal in the government
0:12:01 > 0:12:04would say this is a wonderful thing to be doing now whether there has
0:12:04 > 0:12:08been a of mind, that sense of bumbling amount because we don't
0:12:08 > 0:12:14really know any more?0 in the Prime Minister made it very clear today at
0:12:14 > 0:12:18PMQs that that invitation has been offered, and tomorrow's summit is
0:12:18 > 0:12:21the one with president Macron, and we will be really focusing on so
0:12:21 > 0:12:25much that we do together with the French, and you've already
0:12:25 > 0:12:31highlighted the importance of the extensive trading that we do in
0:12:31 > 0:12:34terms of financial services between the two countries, but just in terms
0:12:34 > 0:12:38of exports alone, we are talking about a £70 billion relationship.
0:12:38 > 0:12:42This is the third biggest trading relationship that we have. And so
0:12:42 > 0:12:46it's an incredibly important relationship, one which both
0:12:46 > 0:12:50premiers will want to show that we are taking forward and tomorrow's
0:12:50 > 0:12:53summit will have some very substantive announcements and the
0:12:53 > 0:12:57communique will show the strength of that bilateral relationship.Thank
0:12:57 > 0:13:03you very much for coming in.
0:13:03 > 0:13:09Jeremy Corbyn accused the government of being deeply negligent over
0:13:09 > 0:13:11the collapse of Carillion today in the Commons.
0:13:11 > 0:13:13Unfortunately for Labour, the question he appeared to be
0:13:13 > 0:13:15asking never quite came, allowing the PM a fairly
0:13:15 > 0:13:18easy ride in what should have been a tough week.
0:13:18 > 0:13:20Mr Speaker - it looks like the government was handing
0:13:20 > 0:13:22Carillion public contracts either to keep the company afloat,
0:13:22 > 0:13:24which clearly hasn't worked, or it was just deeply negligent
0:13:24 > 0:13:26of the crisis that was coming down the line.
0:13:26 > 0:13:29Which?
0:13:29 > 0:13:30Which?
0:13:30 > 0:13:35Which is it?
0:13:35 > 0:13:37Mr Speaker, I'm very happy to answer questions when the right
0:13:37 > 0:13:42honourable gentlemen asks one - he didn't.
0:13:42 > 0:13:44Helen Thomas, our business editor, is with me.
0:13:44 > 0:13:47Moving away from the cut and thrust of PMQs, Helen,
0:13:47 > 0:13:54what else did we learn about Carillion today?
0:13:54 > 0:13:58There was some mixed news today from the insolvency service. On the good
0:13:58 > 0:14:05side, they said that 90% of Carillion's private sector services
0:14:05 > 0:14:08customers want to carry on receiving those services, they are prepared to
0:14:08 > 0:14:11fund them, and that means people stay in jobs. On the bad side, the
0:14:11 > 0:14:17construction business public and private is basically closed. They
0:14:17 > 0:14:21have said work is paused and there is no sense of how long that paws
0:14:21 > 0:14:25will last. People I have spoken to in the construction industry are
0:14:25 > 0:14:30very worried about that. One of news - they have said any severance
0:14:30 > 0:14:35payments going to directors of Carillion will have stopped as of
0:14:35 > 0:14:39Monday. There was this concerned that directors might still be
0:14:39 > 0:14:42receiving big pay-outs. But there has been another question on pay,
0:14:42 > 0:14:48which is about the ability to claw back past bonuses paid. Now, a good
0:14:48 > 0:14:52chunk of those past bonuses would have been paired in shares which are
0:14:52 > 0:14:55now worth precisely nothing. But what I have heard today is that
0:14:55 > 0:14:59nobody is too confident that they will be able to claw back any of
0:14:59 > 0:15:02those past bonus payments.So what is your sense of where things go
0:15:02 > 0:15:07from here?
0:15:08 > 0:15:13We understand that the National Audit Office is releasing a report
0:15:13 > 0:15:19on PFI. These are big, infrastructure, construction
0:15:19 > 0:15:24projects built by private companies, and those private companies take an
0:15:24 > 0:15:30annual payment over 25 or 30 year contracts, and are also providing
0:15:30 > 0:15:33cleaning and maintenance contracts and so one. Labour has said they
0:15:33 > 0:15:39will take all of those PFI contracts back in-house. You could assume that
0:15:39 > 0:15:44report would get some attention. A few figures that may demonstrate the
0:15:44 > 0:15:51scale of this. 700 of these projects are operating. They have a capital
0:15:51 > 0:15:55value of £60 billion, roughly what they were built for. The total
0:15:55 > 0:16:02annual
0:16:02 > 0:16:04annual charges on those projects is about £10 billion, and if there were
0:16:04 > 0:16:08no new deals from today, the future payments would stretch until the 20
0:16:08 > 0:16:1240s and total around £200 billion. Thank you.
0:16:12 > 0:16:13But what would Labour do?
0:16:13 > 0:16:15Earlier, I spoke to the shadow business spokeswoman
0:16:15 > 0:16:18Rebecca Long-Bailey, and I began by asking her to now
0:16:18 > 0:16:19clarify Labour's position on public-private partnerships.
0:16:19 > 0:16:22Of course, you can't rule out the use of the private sector.
0:16:22 > 0:16:24They have their strengths, and they have certain
0:16:24 > 0:16:26characteristics that we would need to utilise, but the question
0:16:26 > 0:16:29has to be, is this cost effective for the tax payer?
0:16:29 > 0:16:32Would it be cheaper to deliver those services in-house?
0:16:32 > 0:16:36And is the risk greater by contracting out a private company
0:16:36 > 0:16:39that could potentially fail, or is it better to have them
0:16:39 > 0:16:41in-house with a body that's directly accountable
0:16:41 > 0:16:44to the people of Britain?
0:16:44 > 0:16:47But essentially there's not a huge difference now
0:16:47 > 0:16:52between you and what the government is doing anyway.
0:16:52 > 0:16:55You're not saying, we're going to end stuff, you just say,
0:16:55 > 0:16:57we're going to look at them on a case-by-case basis,
0:16:57 > 0:17:00and make sure that nobody is earning excess profits.
0:17:00 > 0:17:04Now, if you ask the government whether they believe
0:17:04 > 0:17:07that is happening, they would presumably say no.
0:17:07 > 0:17:08The government's approach to outsourcing is completely
0:17:08 > 0:17:12different from Labour.
0:17:12 > 0:17:15They are driven by outsourcing as part of their ideological make up.
0:17:15 > 0:17:18But isn't your ideology to get the public sector to do more?
0:17:18 > 0:17:19To bring everything in-house?
0:17:19 > 0:17:20No, this isn't about ideology.
0:17:20 > 0:17:22This is about what's best for public services,
0:17:22 > 0:17:24and what is the most cost-effective method of delivering public services
0:17:24 > 0:17:26for the UK taxpayer.
0:17:26 > 0:17:34Now, the Conservatives unfortunately have chosen an ideological path
0:17:36 > 0:17:38to marketise public services and put profit before service delivery.
0:17:38 > 0:17:41Now, the interests of the public and the interests of the taxpayer
0:17:41 > 0:17:42should be paramount.
0:17:42 > 0:17:44They are not being considered by this government,
0:17:44 > 0:17:46and that is what differs our position from the Conservatives.
0:17:46 > 0:17:49Do you think a Labour government could commit
0:17:49 > 0:17:51to ending PFI completely?
0:17:51 > 0:17:53Well, we have committed to ending PFI.
0:17:53 > 0:17:54We've said no new PFI.
0:17:54 > 0:17:55No new PFI.
0:17:55 > 0:17:59No new PFI.
0:17:59 > 0:18:03But would you end all the PFI arrangements that
0:18:03 > 0:18:03are existing at the moment?
0:18:03 > 0:18:05Well, legally, we'd have to look at the mechanics
0:18:05 > 0:18:06of each relevant contract.
0:18:06 > 0:18:09As I said, there would need to be an examination of each one.
0:18:09 > 0:18:10They will all be very different.
0:18:10 > 0:18:13And we would have to look at the ways we could bring
0:18:13 > 0:18:14that back in-house.
0:18:14 > 0:18:17There could be certain contracts that are due to expire shortly,
0:18:17 > 0:18:19where it might not be cost-effective to carry out the legal
0:18:19 > 0:18:22costs of doing that, so we have to look at them
0:18:22 > 0:18:25on a case-by-case basis, but we are very firm that we do not
0:18:25 > 0:18:27support a PFI model going forward.
0:18:27 > 0:18:29We need to examine other ways of delivering our large
0:18:29 > 0:18:31infrastructure and estate related projects that are more
0:18:31 > 0:18:35cost-effective for the UK tax payer.
0:18:35 > 0:18:40But when you look at individual services, such as prison escort or
0:18:40 > 0:18:46school meals, is that something you can still imagine the private sector
0:18:46 > 0:18:51doing?I think it is a struggle to see, for example in the case of
0:18:51 > 0:18:55Carillion, how that can be cost-effective for a private
0:18:55 > 0:19:00company, to deliver a profit and also a good level of service. This
0:19:00 > 0:19:04is why there needs to be a fundamental examination of the
0:19:04 > 0:19:10delivery of public
0:19:10 > 0:19:13delivery of public services.Serco delivers prison escorts. Would you
0:19:13 > 0:19:17take that on?We need to examine the most cost-effective way for the UK
0:19:17 > 0:19:22tax payers.Would you consider it? If it's cheaper and more secure to
0:19:22 > 0:19:29deliver those services in-house, we would do it.You would do bin
0:19:29 > 0:19:32collection, school meals and prison escorts without using private
0:19:32 > 0:19:37companies?We are not saying it. There might be certain cases where
0:19:37 > 0:19:43we use private companies where we do not have that capability. We need to
0:19:43 > 0:19:47look at building up capability. We think it will be more
0:19:47 > 0:19:51cost-effective, in many cases, to bring services in-house, which is
0:19:51 > 0:19:56why we have been calling for many of the public sector contracts that
0:19:56 > 0:20:01Carillion hell to come back in-house.If there has been a profit
0:20:01 > 0:20:07warning, is that reason enough to say, we are not dealing with you any
0:20:07 > 0:20:13more?If you are following the strategic risk policy, you have to
0:20:13 > 0:20:16follow that guidance stringently, which would mean you would not award
0:20:16 > 0:20:20any further contracts to that company until the situation is
0:20:20 > 0:20:26rectified. The government is required to ensure there is a crown
0:20:26 > 0:20:30representative to oversee Carillion when problems started to emerge. As
0:20:30 > 0:20:35far back as September, we know this didn't happen. There was no
0:20:35 > 0:20:38appropriate oversight of this contract. There was no attempt by
0:20:38 > 0:20:48the government to mediate or encourage
0:20:48 > 0:20:49encourage Carillion to sort the situation out themselves. It was
0:20:49 > 0:20:52left out in the wilderness.The oversight was there? So why would it
0:20:52 > 0:20:55be right to bring even more government services back in-house to
0:20:55 > 0:20:59be overseen by the people you don't trust to look into the accountancy,
0:20:59 > 0:21:05let alone run the proper businesses themselves. You are talking about
0:21:05 > 0:21:09civil services that didn't get it right?We are talking about bringing
0:21:09 > 0:21:14services back into the NHS, for example, and we would want to make
0:21:14 > 0:21:18sure there is a stringent assessment of the capability of those services
0:21:18 > 0:21:23to deliver those services.
0:21:23 > 0:21:26to deliver those services.We have... Wood July to see mandatory
0:21:26 > 0:21:32reselection of every Labour MP?That is not a decision for me to make.
0:21:32 > 0:21:36That is a decision for our membership to make.Is that the
0:21:36 > 0:21:41right direction to go in?We want party democracy. It is not a
0:21:41 > 0:21:46decision for me to make. We want the members to decide how our party will
0:21:46 > 0:21:50be run going forward, which is why we are having a democracy review.
0:21:50 > 0:21:55It's not something we've stated the party will be doing any time soon.
0:21:55 > 0:22:07We have trigger ballots in place at the moment, where branches of
0:22:07 > 0:22:08the moment, where branches of a Labour Party constituency can decide
0:22:08 > 0:22:11whether to have an open or closed selection of an MP. That is our
0:22:11 > 0:22:15process at a moment.Thank you.
0:22:15 > 0:22:16Our political editor, Nick Watt, is here.
0:22:16 > 0:22:18There was something interesting about mandatory
0:22:18 > 0:22:22selections in there...?
0:22:22 > 0:22:27She is saying that that is not going to happen any time soon, and she
0:22:27 > 0:22:31refers to the status quo, which is the trigger ballots. There were
0:22:31 > 0:22:36fears among centrist Labour MPs that these mandatory selections could be
0:22:36 > 0:22:40on the way, because there was a landslide victory for momentum
0:22:40 > 0:22:46candidates in elections to Labour's National Executive Committee.
0:22:46 > 0:22:51Rebecca Long-Bailey tends to vote the Corbyn way, and she has been
0:22:51 > 0:22:55mentioned by Jeremy Corbyn supporters as a potential successor.
0:22:55 > 0:23:01So far heard to say, not happening any time soon, will be noted.Nick,
0:23:01 > 0:23:06thank you.
0:23:07 > 0:23:09This week, four-time Rio Olympic champion Simone Biles became
0:23:09 > 0:23:11the highest profile athlete to state she was sexually abused
0:23:11 > 0:23:13by former USA gymnastics team doctor Larry Nasser.
0:23:13 > 0:23:15She's one of more than 140 women to have accused
0:23:15 > 0:23:17the 54-year-old of abuse.
0:23:17 > 0:23:20Larissa Boyce says she was sexually abused by Larry Nassar
0:23:20 > 0:23:24when she was just 16.
0:23:24 > 0:23:26Morgan McCaul says she was abused
0:23:26 > 0:23:28by Nassar when she was just 12 years old.
0:23:28 > 0:23:32Both women join us now from Michigan.
0:23:32 > 0:23:38It is very nice of you to talk to us about this. Can I ask you to explain
0:23:38 > 0:23:45what happened with Larry Nassar?The actions that he did.In terms of
0:23:45 > 0:23:56what happened to you and what you did.Well, I was a gymnast, and I
0:23:56 > 0:24:03hurt my back, so my coach recommended that I go to him,
0:24:03 > 0:24:09because he was the best around. So I went and saw him, and he's started
0:24:09 > 0:24:18abusing me. After a couple of appointments, when my parents
0:24:18 > 0:24:26stopped coming into the room with me. And he would abuse me every time
0:24:26 > 0:24:35I would see him. At the office, and at the gymnastics practice at
0:24:35 > 0:24:42Michigan State University, where the College gymnasts...I don't want to
0:24:42 > 0:24:45interrupt, but you told somebody about this. You tried to make this
0:24:45 > 0:24:56known. And what happened?I did. When I
0:24:58 > 0:25:00When I told Kathie Klages, she humiliated me. She didn't believe
0:25:00 > 0:25:05that Larry Nassar could be doing this, I must be misunderstanding.
0:25:05 > 0:25:10She then paraded in a bunch of my team-mates to ask if any of them
0:25:10 > 0:25:15felt uncomfortable with what he was doing. All of them but one other
0:25:15 > 0:25:21girl said no, so she kept the other girl in the office, and had asked
0:25:21 > 0:25:27talk to the Michigan State College gymnasts. I remember sitting in her
0:25:27 > 0:25:32office, and she was not in her room any more, but the college gymnasts
0:25:32 > 0:25:38said, his hands would get close to certain areas but that they would
0:25:38 > 0:25:45never be inappropriate. They would never go inside. I said, that is not
0:25:45 > 0:25:51happening to me. His fingers are penetrating me.I'm sorry. Very
0:25:51 > 0:25:58distressing to make you relive this. I want to talk to Morgan as well. If
0:25:58 > 0:26:02Larissa's allegations all those years ago had been believed, you
0:26:02 > 0:26:10would have been spared.Absolutely. When Larissa originally came forward
0:26:10 > 0:26:16to her coach, I hadn't even been born yet. I was born in 1999, and
0:26:16 > 0:26:22this occurred in 97.And he was still doing the same thing with
0:26:22 > 0:26:28young gymnasts, young pupils, that he was in those early days. That was
0:26:28 > 0:26:34your same experience, Morgan?Yes, we had very similar experiences in
0:26:34 > 0:26:39terms of what he would do to us in the appointments.What effect has it
0:26:39 > 0:26:45had longer term on each of you. Morgan, if I carry on with you. What
0:26:45 > 0:26:53effect has it had on you?I struggled with depression and
0:26:53 > 0:26:59anxiety ever since. I stopped seeing Nassar in 2015, but what I believe
0:26:59 > 0:27:05this has taken from me is my sense of identity and my ability to trust
0:27:05 > 0:27:11people. I feel like I totally trusted Nasser. I believed he was
0:27:11 > 0:27:17there to help me. He was very personable. I felt like he was my
0:27:17 > 0:27:21friend. And to find that the Man U trusted more than any other
0:27:21 > 0:27:25physician in the world did this makes you wonder how much you can
0:27:25 > 0:27:33trust your own judgment.Larissa, when these allegations became
0:27:33 > 0:27:38public, and more voices came out, I imagine for you that was a huge
0:27:38 > 0:27:44watershed moment, but also a frustration that it hasn't come out
0:27:44 > 0:27:49earlier.At first I was defending him, because I was so brainwashed
0:27:49 > 0:27:56into believing that I was the problem. You know, my MSU coach and
0:27:56 > 0:28:03my teacher had told me that what he was doing was OK, so I just assumed
0:28:03 > 0:28:09that I was the problem, that I must have a dirty mind. And so when this
0:28:09 > 0:28:14all came out, like I said, I was defending him, and then I really
0:28:14 > 0:28:19started to look back and remember the details of the appointments.
0:28:19 > 0:28:26Being an adult, I realise that what he did was not OK, and that it was
0:28:26 > 0:28:32sexual abuse. I got very angry. I think I experienced every emotion
0:28:32 > 0:28:39possible. I was angry, I was depressed, I was crying all the
0:28:39 > 0:28:47time. I even one time had a suicidal thought. I was in so much pain
0:28:47 > 0:28:52emotionally that I just didn't know how to handle all of the thoughts of
0:28:52 > 0:29:02how betrayed I was I not just Nassar but by MSU, Michigan State as an
0:29:02 > 0:29:05institution, failed me. And they failed all of these hundreds of
0:29:05 > 0:29:10girls that came after me, and it could have been stopped. So it's
0:29:10 > 0:29:16very, very difficult to think of the way it could have been stopped.It
0:29:16 > 0:29:21is incredibly brave of you to share those thoughts with us tonight.
0:29:21 > 0:29:27Really appreciate that. Thank you both very much indeed.
0:29:27 > 0:29:35A lawyer for Kathie Klages has previously said...
0:29:52 > 0:29:58Michigan State University have said...
0:29:58 > 0:30:00"Any suggestion that the university
0:30:00 > 0:30:02covered up Nassar's horriffic conduct is simply false.
0:30:02 > 0:30:04Nassar preyed on his victims, changing their lives
0:30:04 > 0:30:05in terrible ways."
0:30:05 > 0:30:06USA Gymnastics said...
0:30:06 > 0:30:07"Our hearts break for these athletes
0:30:07 > 0:30:09and we deeply admire their courage and strength in sharing
0:30:09 > 0:30:12their experiences."
0:30:12 > 0:30:17We know the NHS in England is struggling to cope this winter,
0:30:17 > 0:30:19as it tries to manage unprecedented levels of demand.
0:30:19 > 0:30:22As more patients come in through A&E, hospitals have
0:30:22 > 0:30:25to get them out of the back door so that the system doesn't seize up.
0:30:25 > 0:30:27For many older patients, this means having appropriate
0:30:27 > 0:30:29social care lined up.
0:30:29 > 0:30:32But many older or vulnerable patients don't have anywhere to go
0:30:32 > 0:30:34where they can receive the care they need, heightening
0:30:34 > 0:30:42the social care crisis.
0:30:51 > 0:30:53Trevor Davies was admitted on 21/12/17.
0:30:53 > 0:30:55He has got a lot of issues, Trevor.
0:30:55 > 0:31:03First of all, he tried to commit suicide.
0:31:03 > 0:31:06He promises that he's not planning to commit suicide now,
0:31:06 > 0:31:09but I am not too sure, because he's still depressed.
0:31:09 > 0:31:15He has said that he's had seven heart attacks in the past.
0:31:15 > 0:31:19He lost his daughter on his birthday.
0:31:19 > 0:31:24His daughter was only 44 years old.
0:31:24 > 0:31:28He has got a lot of cancers frosted in some way in his tummy as well.
0:31:28 > 0:31:32The GP did see him yesterday, and he has been prescribed pain relief.
0:31:32 > 0:31:34In terms of the level of support he is receiving
0:31:34 > 0:31:38from you, I don't think...
0:31:38 > 0:31:45I'm not hearing that he should be in a care home.
0:31:45 > 0:31:50The last 12 months have been horrible, you know?
0:31:50 > 0:31:52Like, going through a divorce, my daughter dying on my birthday,
0:31:52 > 0:31:55which wasn't very nice, you know?
0:31:55 > 0:32:00And it sort of sent me like into oblivion, you know?
0:32:00 > 0:32:07And just what to do, how to do, where am I going?
0:32:07 > 0:32:09So they took me into a hospital, and got me right.
0:32:09 > 0:32:12I come out, and then got me right again, and I'm sort
0:32:12 > 0:32:14of going into the system, and hopefully they're
0:32:14 > 0:32:17going to give me somewhere where I'm going to be
0:32:17 > 0:32:18happy, you know?
0:32:18 > 0:32:20This winter is the worst winter in terms of hospital care that
0:32:20 > 0:32:25people have experienced.
0:32:25 > 0:32:27The flow of patients from hospital used to be fairly steady,
0:32:27 > 0:32:32but there was always availability.
0:32:32 > 0:32:39I'm not coping, so I need someone to help me cope.
0:32:39 > 0:32:42When I've done the assessment on the computer, and done that bit,
0:32:42 > 0:32:46I will send it, as I said, to my manager, who will look
0:32:46 > 0:32:50at it and authorise it, and once she authorises it,
0:32:50 > 0:32:53I'll then go on to ask for funding for your care package.
0:32:53 > 0:32:55Yeah.
0:32:55 > 0:32:56I'm dying of cancer.
0:32:56 > 0:32:58Terminal cancer.
0:32:58 > 0:33:06So I'd like a bit of...
0:33:06 > 0:33:07Not sympathy.
0:33:07 > 0:33:08Common-sense.
0:33:08 > 0:33:11This place is full already.
0:33:11 > 0:33:15And it is the place that kind of supports the discharges
0:33:15 > 0:33:20from hospitals, and acts as a middleman between
0:33:20 > 0:33:28the hospital and the community facilities out there.
0:33:30 > 0:33:33If you can imagine that it's full of people waiting to go in there,
0:33:33 > 0:33:36and if you can imagine that you take this out, it's not there any more,
0:33:36 > 0:33:41these people would be in hospital waiting to be discharged.
0:33:41 > 0:33:48I spent seven weeks in hospital, and then they said they were going
0:33:48 > 0:33:53to find a place temporarily, so they put me here.
0:33:53 > 0:33:58I have problems with the lungs, infection on the lungs,
0:33:58 > 0:34:01and also they are concerned about my heart, and also my liver.
0:34:01 > 0:34:08What's stopping you from going home?
0:34:08 > 0:34:13There's three or four big steps to the front door, off the pavement.
0:34:13 > 0:34:15There's no shower.
0:34:15 > 0:34:20I can't use the bath.
0:34:20 > 0:34:23Besides that, I'm getting old now myself, and I do feel it.
0:34:23 > 0:34:29I think, in the future, I need a bit of care.
0:34:29 > 0:34:33And help.
0:34:33 > 0:34:41Janet, on unit one.
0:34:41 > 0:34:44I was just asked yesterday to meet with her and do an assessment,
0:34:44 > 0:34:47because I know there's a history of concern around the alcohol.
0:34:47 > 0:34:50Have there been any concerns, any observations?
0:34:50 > 0:34:53Not while she's been with us, no.
0:34:53 > 0:34:58No? No.
0:34:58 > 0:35:01No evidence of any side effects through not having
0:35:01 > 0:35:04alcohol or anything?
0:35:04 > 0:35:07We did notice it in the beginning, when she first came to us,
0:35:07 > 0:35:10because she wasn't getting what she wanted, her way.
0:35:10 > 0:35:11What is it you are drinking?
0:35:11 > 0:35:14It's a special mix.
0:35:14 > 0:35:15Oh, right.
0:35:15 > 0:35:17Fairly regular, anyway.
0:35:17 > 0:35:20The social worker's main focus is the patient.
0:35:20 > 0:35:23This particular patient.
0:35:23 > 0:35:26But when you look at the bigger picture, there are many more
0:35:26 > 0:35:29things to think about.
0:35:29 > 0:35:30Yeah.
0:35:30 > 0:35:31I don't mind being here.
0:35:31 > 0:35:34I don't mind at all.
0:35:34 > 0:35:37Do you know what kind of a place this is?
0:35:37 > 0:35:42It gives people time, following hospital discharge,
0:35:42 > 0:35:49just to improve a bit more, and have time for an assessment to be done.
0:35:49 > 0:35:52So there's a lot of demand, you know, from hospitals.
0:35:52 > 0:35:56That's why we tell people when we come here,
0:35:56 > 0:35:57it is for up to four weeks.
0:35:57 > 0:36:03Yeah, I know.
0:36:03 > 0:36:06And then we need to try and get care support arrangements
0:36:06 > 0:36:10in place in that time.
0:36:10 > 0:36:12Already we're at four weeks, but it's not your problem
0:36:12 > 0:36:14or for you to worry about.
0:36:14 > 0:36:16That's for us to sort out.
0:36:16 > 0:36:17I can't live on my own.
0:36:17 > 0:36:18Not live on your own?
0:36:18 > 0:36:20I'll start drinking again.
0:36:20 > 0:36:21Got you.
0:36:21 > 0:36:22So that's the bottom line?
0:36:22 > 0:36:24Yeah. I'll start drinking.
0:36:24 > 0:36:26I won't eat either.
0:36:26 > 0:36:28I'll just drink, drink, drink.
0:36:28 > 0:36:30You're telling me that you know that if you went back
0:36:30 > 0:36:32and lived on your own, there's a...
0:36:32 > 0:36:34I've done it so many times.
0:36:34 > 0:36:37I've just gone straight back to drink again.
0:36:37 > 0:36:45Yeah, OK.
0:36:49 > 0:36:51Most of the older people that I have worked with like
0:36:51 > 0:36:52to have some choices.
0:36:52 > 0:36:55They like to be in control of their lives.
0:36:55 > 0:36:57They like to be independent.
0:36:57 > 0:36:59Why did you have to move around, Janet?
0:36:59 > 0:37:00Because I'm homeless.
0:37:00 > 0:37:01That's why.
0:37:01 > 0:37:04I've got no home to go to.
0:37:04 > 0:37:06And we're up to four weeks now.
0:37:06 > 0:37:07Yeah, we are, yeah.
0:37:07 > 0:37:09How are you feeling about that?
0:37:09 > 0:37:10Nervous.
0:37:10 > 0:37:11Who wouldn't be?
0:37:11 > 0:37:16Who wouldn't be nervous?
0:37:16 > 0:37:20The loneliness is a killer.
0:37:20 > 0:37:25But I'm in hope, you know?
0:37:25 > 0:37:28And when you see a lot of older people which are worse off than me,
0:37:28 > 0:37:30I feel sorry for them.
0:37:30 > 0:37:32But I've got the terminal cancer.
0:37:32 > 0:37:34Who knows when, who knows where?
0:37:34 > 0:37:37I don't know.
0:37:37 > 0:37:41At the end of the day, we're sitting there in front of an individual,
0:37:41 > 0:37:43but we can only work within the constraints that we have
0:37:43 > 0:37:48in our job, obviously.
0:37:48 > 0:37:51You know, we have to help people to understand that, and to work
0:37:51 > 0:37:52within what is available to them.
0:37:52 > 0:37:56There are times when that's a very difficult conversation.
0:37:56 > 0:37:59We know that that's not what we would want for people,
0:37:59 > 0:38:07but it is all we can provide.
0:38:13 > 0:38:17That was a look at the Kenrick Centre, a special counsel Robert
0:38:17 > 0:38:20Mueller centre, designed to relieve hospitals.
0:38:20 > 0:38:23With me in the studio is Graeme Betts, who is interim
0:38:23 > 0:38:27director for adult social care at Birmingham City Council.
0:38:27 > 0:38:31Is the Kenrick Centre, which I know you know well, representative of the
0:38:31 > 0:38:38wider problem is that you're seeing now?What the Kenrick Centre does is
0:38:38 > 0:38:42to provide interim beds as well as long-term beds. And it is critical
0:38:42 > 0:38:46in helping us to manage the pressures in the system.And how bad
0:38:46 > 0:38:53is the problem at the moment, are you seeing it get worse?I mean the
0:38:53 > 0:38:57reality is, we can't deny there is a lot of pressure on people like
0:38:57 > 0:38:59myself and other directors to mitigate that as far as possible.
0:38:59 > 0:39:06But in reality, there's a lot of pressure, that's what the staff are
0:39:06 > 0:39:09telling us of. We're using our resources such as the Kenrick Centre
0:39:09 > 0:39:13to mitigate the pressure that's coming through the system.And it's
0:39:13 > 0:39:18extraordinary to see the work going on their - is that something that
0:39:18 > 0:39:23can be rolled out, something that you think will be more widely used
0:39:23 > 0:39:28if there are resources to do that? What's interesting about Birmingham
0:39:28 > 0:39:31is that we've recognised that across the system there are challenges
0:39:31 > 0:39:34across the system, and we're now working together very closely to
0:39:34 > 0:39:39develop a more integrated approach to intermediate care, and the sorts
0:39:39 > 0:39:44of things that you saw in the villainy would be part of that, so
0:39:44 > 0:39:47we're expanding it.There would be a lot of people who aren't able to
0:39:47 > 0:39:54make that transition from hospital to home - when you haven't got a
0:39:54 > 0:39:59Kenrick Centre, what happens?I would challenge that in some ways,
0:39:59 > 0:40:04because what I would say is one of the areas that we need to improve in
0:40:04 > 0:40:09Birmingham is our enablement services.Home visits?Yeah, it's
0:40:09 > 0:40:11really helping people regain their confidence and ability to live at
0:40:11 > 0:40:18home. If we could improve that, we know that we can improve the
0:40:18 > 0:40:21outcomes for people. So, as well as the Kenrick Centre we need to
0:40:21 > 0:40:24balance it by using home based approaches.It's interesting you're
0:40:24 > 0:40:29talking about confidence, so, it is not just the fact that they can't,
0:40:29 > 0:40:34it's giving people the sense that they will be all right on their own?
0:40:34 > 0:40:38Yes. What came through from that film is the complexity of what we're
0:40:38 > 0:40:43dealing with. It's not just that there are more people coming through
0:40:43 > 0:40:46the system, there are more people with more complex needs coming
0:40:46 > 0:40:51through the system, in terms of physical and mental health and
0:40:51 > 0:40:54challenging behaviours as well.And do you think that's something that
0:40:54 > 0:40:57has changed over recent years? Certainly. That's what the staff are
0:40:57 > 0:41:04telling me. The people snap dealing with now are poorly, the levels of
0:41:04 > 0:41:07sickness are higher, and the challenges they bring with them are
0:41:07 > 0:41:14much more complex. I think that has an impact in a number of ways, it
0:41:14 > 0:41:17mixed the assessment more difficult, particularly if you think about
0:41:17 > 0:41:22trying to assess them in a hospital setting, it is well nigh impossible
0:41:22 > 0:41:26to assess a person's mental capacity, for example. So, what
0:41:26 > 0:41:30we're really trying to do is to use centres like the Kenrick Centre to
0:41:30 > 0:41:35bring people out more quickly from hospital so that we can do the
0:41:35 > 0:41:38in-depth assessment and ensure a safe discharge and improve the
0:41:38 > 0:41:44outcomes for people.Thank you very much for coming in. That is all we
0:41:44 > 0:41:48have time for this evening. Kirsty Williams with you tomorrow. From all
0:41:48 > 0:41:58of us here, good night.