0:00:06 > 0:00:08Tonight, the Presidents Club shuts down, the charity
0:00:08 > 0:00:10money is handed back, and Britain's business and political
0:00:10 > 0:00:13elite run for cover.
0:00:13 > 0:00:21But this annual event has been going on for 30 years,
0:00:21 > 0:00:24so are people really shocked, or have they just been exposed?
0:00:24 > 0:00:25We ask government minister Margot James.
0:00:25 > 0:00:27We'll discuss with a woman who previously worked
0:00:27 > 0:00:30as a hostess at the event and another who was asked to,
0:00:30 > 0:00:32but turned it down.
0:00:32 > 0:00:33Also, a rare interview with a firefighter who tackled
0:00:33 > 0:00:34the blaze at Grenfell.
0:00:34 > 0:00:38How are those on the front line coping more than six months on?
0:00:38 > 0:00:40I still feel guilt and I think I will
0:00:40 > 0:00:43feel eternally guilty.
0:00:43 > 0:00:46My job, the reason I joined this job, is to make sure the person
0:00:46 > 0:00:48I'm saving doesn't die.
0:00:48 > 0:00:51Ultimately, that's the point, the black and white of my job.
0:00:51 > 0:00:54So, when so many innocent people lose their lives it's very,
0:00:54 > 0:00:58very hard to take.
0:00:58 > 0:01:00Is Cape Town about to become the first global city
0:01:00 > 0:01:02to run out of water?
0:01:02 > 0:01:04We'll ask the politician who's trying to halt
0:01:04 > 0:01:10an unprecedented crisis.
0:01:15 > 0:01:17And the death was announced this evening of the Fall
0:01:17 > 0:01:21singer Mark E Smith.
0:01:21 > 0:01:23We look back on a life of Manchester, music and colourful
0:01:23 > 0:01:25appearances on Newsnight.
0:01:25 > 0:01:33And I allowed to speak now? Yeah, go ahead.Yeah, what ever you say. Are
0:01:33 > 0:01:38you the new DJ?Yeah, probably, probably.
0:01:38 > 0:01:44And we'll speak live to his friend Tim Burgess.
0:01:45 > 0:01:49Good evening.
0:01:49 > 0:01:51The Presidents Club's "men only" annual dinner has been
0:01:51 > 0:01:53taking place for more than 30 years.
0:01:53 > 0:01:56But on the strength of one excoriating investigative report,
0:01:56 > 0:01:58and 24 hours of public outrage, it has just announced
0:01:58 > 0:02:00it's shutting its doors.
0:02:00 > 0:02:04Tonight, as charities handed back the money they received
0:02:04 > 0:02:08from the fundraiser, and a chief organiser was fired
0:02:08 > 0:02:11from his role in government, it is easy to see why business folk
0:02:11 > 0:02:14could not move quicker to distance themselves from the event.
0:02:14 > 0:02:18Tonight, a minister told me it was a watershed moment.
0:02:18 > 0:02:23Yet even in 2018, when allegations of sexual abuse and misuse of power
0:02:23 > 0:02:26have permeated pubic discourse for months, more than 300 men chose
0:02:26 > 0:02:29to go to an event where the only women they would find would be
0:02:29 > 0:02:31working as hostesses.
0:02:31 > 0:02:34Forced to have their underwear dictated to them, their mobile
0:02:34 > 0:02:36phones removed, and sign disclaimers that absolved the club
0:02:36 > 0:02:37from any blame.
0:02:37 > 0:02:39So, have attitudes really changed?
0:02:39 > 0:02:44Or just been exposed?
0:02:44 > 0:02:46And what real consequences will there be and should
0:02:46 > 0:02:47there be for those involved?
0:02:47 > 0:02:54Here's Helen Thomas.
0:02:54 > 0:02:57It has been a day of outrage.
0:02:57 > 0:03:03Women were bought as bait.
0:03:03 > 0:03:06The organisers chose to make this a men-only event.
0:03:06 > 0:03:08They chose to treat the hostesses in this way
0:03:08 > 0:03:10to make them parade across the stage in front of men,
0:03:10 > 0:03:13to make them wear black, skimpy outfits and specify
0:03:13 > 0:03:17the colour of their underwear.
0:03:17 > 0:03:18A charity is prepared to facilitate that
0:03:18 > 0:03:20behaviour as long as wealthy men open their cheque
0:03:20 > 0:03:21books beggars belief.
0:03:21 > 0:03:24The revelations from the Presidents Club pose many questions.
0:03:24 > 0:03:27Not least how is it that an event which seems to have been running
0:03:27 > 0:03:29in roughly this form for at least a decade has
0:03:29 > 0:03:31attracted so little scrutiny.
0:03:31 > 0:03:34But, there's been soul-searching elsewhere, too.
0:03:34 > 0:03:37What is acceptable in the name of charity fundraising
0:03:37 > 0:03:39and what checks could or should charities be doing
0:03:39 > 0:03:41on their donations?
0:03:41 > 0:03:43In 2016 alone, nearly 60 charities received a donation
0:03:43 > 0:03:51from The Presidents Club, according to its accounts.
0:03:51 > 0:03:57If fundraising isn't being carried out in a way
0:03:57 > 0:04:00that is generally acceptable, and ethical, then the fact that
0:04:00 > 0:04:03you raise lots of money is, in a way, neither here nor there.
0:04:03 > 0:04:06We want fundraising by charities to be open, honest and respectful
0:04:06 > 0:04:13of those who donate.
0:04:13 > 0:04:14It's really important because it is about public trust
0:04:14 > 0:04:17and confidence in what charities do and how they do it.
0:04:17 > 0:04:21The Presidents Club wasn't being entirely straightforward.
0:04:21 > 0:04:24Last week's auction included a tour of the Bank of England
0:04:24 > 0:04:29and tea with the governor, Mark Carney.
0:04:29 > 0:04:31Newsnight understands that that had previously been
0:04:31 > 0:04:35sold at another event - for the Lord Mayor's
0:04:35 > 0:04:39Appeal last November.
0:04:39 > 0:04:41And that Bruce Ritchie, the Presidents Club's joint chairman,
0:04:41 > 0:04:43was the buyer.
0:04:43 > 0:04:45The bank says it was resold last week, without its permission.
0:04:45 > 0:04:47And that the successful bidder will not be taking
0:04:47 > 0:04:51tea with the governor.
0:04:51 > 0:04:54Given the importance of its annual event to fundraising,
0:04:54 > 0:04:59the charity disclosed almost no details about it.
0:04:59 > 0:05:01In 2016, the dinner raised nearly £1.6 million.
0:05:01 > 0:05:08It cost almost £600,000, according to its accounts.
0:05:09 > 0:05:10Many charities would be pleased with that ratio.
0:05:10 > 0:05:13Look back to 2013 and it's a different story.
0:05:21 > 0:05:22The event raised £264,000 but cost £400,700.
0:05:22 > 0:05:26True, the dinner also generated donations accounted for seven
0:05:26 > 0:05:28leave from event income, usually £2000 or £3000.
0:05:28 > 0:05:30But still, from 2012 to 2015, the cost of putting
0:05:30 > 0:05:33on the dinner was roughly the same or higher than the amount
0:05:33 > 0:05:36it paid out to charity beneficiaries each year.
0:05:36 > 0:05:41The Presidents Club declined to comment.
0:05:41 > 0:05:47Charity sector experts told us that sometimes these big, glitzy dinners,
0:05:47 > 0:05:49even those without 130 hired hostesses, don't
0:05:49 > 0:05:52make a great profit.
0:05:52 > 0:05:54Still, they said, the Presidents Club governance looked weak
0:05:54 > 0:05:57for a charity of its size.
0:05:57 > 0:06:00It only had three trustees, all men.
0:06:00 > 0:06:08Still, the head of fundraising at one well-known charity told us that
0:06:08 > 0:06:10their checks wouldn't have picked up an event of
0:06:10 > 0:06:16this type and they said, if they had questions
0:06:16 > 0:06:18or concerns, they weren't sure which of the sector's regulators
0:06:18 > 0:06:20and watchdogs they should ask for help.
0:06:20 > 0:06:22So, at the moment, the Charity Commission
0:06:22 > 0:06:24for England and Wales, we have just about
0:06:24 > 0:06:25300 civil servants working for us across
0:06:25 > 0:06:26167,000 charities.
0:06:26 > 0:06:28That's not a lot.
0:06:28 > 0:06:30Our capacity is very stretched.
0:06:30 > 0:06:35We've had some good news this week, in fact,
0:06:35 > 0:06:41that the Treasury has recognised the demands on us, the volumes,
0:06:41 > 0:06:43and has agreed, on a short-term basis, to give
0:06:43 > 0:06:49it a bit more funding, £5 million a year more funding.
0:06:49 > 0:06:54The Charity Commission has launched an investigation.
0:06:54 > 0:06:58The fallout from last week's 5-star dinner is only just beginning.
0:06:58 > 0:07:00Earlier, I talked to the Culture Minister Margot James.
0:07:00 > 0:07:03I asked what she thought the Presidents Club event showed.
0:07:03 > 0:07:05Well, I think it represents the very worst form of sexism
0:07:05 > 0:07:12with a smile on its face.
0:07:12 > 0:07:15You know, very clubby, apparently a "men only" event, and,
0:07:15 > 0:07:17at which, women were paraded around in a sort
0:07:17 > 0:07:23of "paid for" hostess role.
0:07:23 > 0:07:27A lot of stuff gets done in the name of charity, I guess.
0:07:27 > 0:07:30Do you think charities have to be the moral arbiter
0:07:30 > 0:07:36of these kinds of events?
0:07:36 > 0:07:39Well, I think you can expect them to be, if they're organising them.
0:07:39 > 0:07:41I mean, this organisation, The Presidents Club,
0:07:41 > 0:07:41they booked these hostesses.
0:07:41 > 0:07:48They sanctioned the conditions under which they worked,
0:07:48 > 0:07:50the nature of the clothing, or lack thereof, that they
0:07:50 > 0:07:53were allowed to wear, and what we've heard about the sort
0:07:53 > 0:07:56of instructions they were given, as to how they were supposed
0:07:56 > 0:07:59to entertain the men attending the dinner.
0:07:59 > 0:08:02The organisers put disclaimers out, warning that they couldn't take
0:08:02 > 0:08:05responsibility for anything that happened to the women there.
0:08:05 > 0:08:06That breaks the law, doesn't it?
0:08:06 > 0:08:09I hope so, yes.
0:08:09 > 0:08:11Certainly, that would be something I would want to be investigated
0:08:11 > 0:08:15and I know that the minister responsible, who answered
0:08:15 > 0:08:17the question very, very effectively in the Commons earlier,
0:08:17 > 0:08:20Anne Milton, is going to look into whether there has
0:08:20 > 0:08:22been any legal breaches.
0:08:22 > 0:08:26Quite right, too.
0:08:26 > 0:08:32When you see all these men, the organisations, the business
0:08:32 > 0:08:34figures distance themselves today, in the last 24 hours,
0:08:34 > 0:08:37from The Presidents Club, what does that tell you?
0:08:37 > 0:08:41Well, I think, actually, it gives me signs of hope.
0:08:41 > 0:08:45I don't think 20 years ago they would have been bothered.
0:08:45 > 0:08:48So, I think that it's a watershed moment in the excess
0:08:48 > 0:08:52of this kind of culture.
0:08:52 > 0:08:56And I think that charities and companies will think long
0:08:56 > 0:08:59and hard before they hire women to be groped by men or certainly
0:08:59 > 0:09:02to entertain men in this kind of environment in the future,
0:09:02 > 0:09:07under the guise of charitable giving.
0:09:07 > 0:09:09You say it's a watershed moment.
0:09:09 > 0:09:11Clearly, you're horrified by the reports you've read.
0:09:11 > 0:09:19But I wonder if you can honestly say that you're shocked or surprised.
0:09:23 > 0:09:28Um, I am surprised that such an event happens with so many
0:09:28 > 0:09:30captains of industry and banking and what have
0:09:30 > 0:09:33you in the Dorchester Hotel.
0:09:33 > 0:09:36The Minister for Children and Families, Nadhim Zahawi, was there.
0:09:36 > 0:09:39Are you comfortable with him carrying on in his government role?
0:09:39 > 0:09:41Yes, I am because he didn't stay long.
0:09:41 > 0:09:43In fact, he left after an hour and a half.
0:09:43 > 0:09:45I think he left at 9:30 pm.
0:09:45 > 0:09:47I've spoken to him.
0:09:47 > 0:09:50I wanted to get the facts.
0:09:50 > 0:09:52He went home very shortly after the hostesses were announced
0:09:52 > 0:09:58by the presenter and paraded around the room.
0:09:58 > 0:10:02I think that that indicates to me that he was shocked by the events,
0:10:02 > 0:10:09didn't like the culture, the atmosphere, and left.
0:10:09 > 0:10:12Why wouldn't he report it, though?
0:10:12 > 0:10:14Why wouldn't he leave an event, saying that was deeply
0:10:14 > 0:10:15uncomfortable and tell someone?
0:10:15 > 0:10:18Well, I think he went home and told his wife.
0:10:18 > 0:10:22But, the point is that I think events degenerated
0:10:22 > 0:10:23further into the evening.
0:10:23 > 0:10:27I mean he...
0:10:27 > 0:10:30I have been to, sort of, big dinners occasionally and you're barely
0:10:30 > 0:10:33in the main course by 9:30 pm.
0:10:33 > 0:10:35So, I think he probably didn't realise how bad it got.
0:10:35 > 0:10:37Your thoughts now on "male only" events.
0:10:37 > 0:10:40Nadhim Zahawi wrote today that he was never going
0:10:40 > 0:10:41to attend another one.
0:10:41 > 0:10:44No. I think that's very wise.
0:10:44 > 0:10:45What about male-only clubs?
0:10:45 > 0:10:49Well, I think they should be things of the past.
0:10:49 > 0:10:53I was at an event a couple of years ago and I went to have a meeting
0:10:53 > 0:10:56after the breakfast in the drawing room of this club in Pall Mall,
0:10:56 > 0:10:58The Travellers Club, and I was told to move.
0:10:58 > 0:11:02No women in the drawing room.
0:11:02 > 0:11:05I mean, this kind of thing, this disdain, lack of equality,
0:11:05 > 0:11:13demeaning attitude that devalues women has got to end.
0:11:15 > 0:11:17Joining me now is Carolyn Mason, managing director
0:11:17 > 0:11:20of Exhibition Girls Limited.
0:11:20 > 0:11:24She was a hostess at The Presidents Club, five years ago.
0:11:24 > 0:11:29And Gina Miller, a prominent business woman and city figure.
0:11:29 > 0:11:37She was also asked to be a hostess and I will bring back in. What was
0:11:37 > 0:11:42it like when you worked there?Do you recognise this? I would say that
0:11:42 > 0:11:48The Presidents Club in general was an unusual event. The girls who work
0:11:48 > 0:11:52at it... It wasn't a standard event in the fact that they were... So
0:11:52 > 0:11:58many of us working at this event. I wouldn't say, as I was saying to
0:11:58 > 0:12:01Jena earlier, it was not a representation of a normal event I
0:12:01 > 0:12:05would be staffing. We staff for charity events, evening events, with
0:12:05 > 0:12:09professional girls and hostesses to work.When you were there, the kind
0:12:09 > 0:12:13of things we have heard is that it was uncomfortable for the women,
0:12:13 > 0:12:22phones were removed, there was groping, harassment, there was new
0:12:22 > 0:12:24behaviour on all levels. Is that something that you experienced or
0:12:24 > 0:12:30recognised? -- there was lewd behaviour.What I wanted to say
0:12:30 > 0:12:35today is that this is not a representation of the corporate
0:12:35 > 0:12:38event industry. This is a professional industry. The girls,
0:12:38 > 0:12:43the hostesses they are there to do a job, they are events assistance,
0:12:43 > 0:12:50they are there to support the event in terms of hospitality.This one,
0:12:50 > 0:12:53did it have a reputation? Was it notorious?This was unusual. In
0:12:53 > 0:12:59terms of the friends who work in the industry. We talk about this event.
0:12:59 > 0:13:02It was unusual because there were so many hostesses in correlation to
0:13:02 > 0:13:08attendees at the event.Did girls go back, women go back year after year.
0:13:08 > 0:13:13Was there a sense they knew then what -- they knew what they were
0:13:13 > 0:13:17getting into, they didn't mind, the pay was good or was its new women as
0:13:17 > 0:13:22they didn't know what to expect?It was at the Dorchester Hotel, a set
0:13:22 > 0:13:27time, I didn't feel unsafe working at this event. It was the amount of
0:13:27 > 0:13:33girls that were at this event. Personally, I didn't feel at risk or
0:13:33 > 0:13:38at any time... I wasn't aware that the girls around me were. It was
0:13:38 > 0:13:44again and it was an auction. There was limited time -- it was a dinner.
0:13:44 > 0:13:50There was a bar environment after the event. I wouldn't say this is a
0:13:50 > 0:13:55standard corporate or charity event. I want to come back to your business
0:13:55 > 0:13:57in a second, the Gina
0:13:57 > 0:13:58I want to come back to your business in a second, the Gina, you were
0:13:58 > 0:14:01asked to be a hostess at The Presidents Club in the 90s.This
0:14:01 > 0:14:07event is notorious. I have come across it twice, once when I was a
0:14:07 > 0:14:12single mother, student, like lots of the girls that were hired. For extra
0:14:12 > 0:14:15money, you do it, part-time actresses, streams, what ever. I
0:14:15 > 0:14:19have spoken to girls who had been at this event and said it was very
0:14:19 > 0:14:23uncomfortable. And that they felt it was actually something that they
0:14:23 > 0:14:29didn't feel safe at. I had heard that so I turned it down. Later,
0:14:29 > 0:14:322004, 2005, when I was running my agency in the city I heard about it
0:14:32 > 0:14:39again. I hadn't heard about it since then. I had presumed it had become
0:14:39 > 0:14:44an PC and that it had disappeared. I was very surprised to hear it was
0:14:44 > 0:14:49happening now.It shot you?It shocked me that it was going on.--
0:14:49 > 0:14:56it shocks you?In the background of Harvey Weinstein.Why would you turn
0:14:56 > 0:15:00up to an event like this in the environment in which we are in at
0:15:00 > 0:15:05the moment?Are we in a different environment?I think we are.The
0:15:05 > 0:15:09public at which has been considerable today that 300 or so
0:15:09 > 0:15:15men still attended the event last week.
0:15:15 > 0:15:19This is not a normal charity event. To try to tar fundraising charities
0:15:19 > 0:15:25as these sort of events is completely wrong.Do think it is
0:15:25 > 0:15:33one-of-a-kind?Yes. The type of men who attended our captains of
0:15:33 > 0:15:39industry, men with real power and influence and many men who, by day,
0:15:39 > 0:15:43are spouting equality for women and at night they are going to events
0:15:43 > 0:15:47like this. It is completely wrong. What does that say that the cultures
0:15:47 > 0:15:51they are perpetuating in their own organisations?Tell us about your
0:15:51 > 0:15:55business. You run and events management team and hire women.
0:15:55 > 0:15:59Would you ever imagine putting on those sorts of requests about what
0:15:59 > 0:16:05women wear and having their phones removed or things like that or do
0:16:05 > 0:16:09they signed nondisclosure agreements that is it normal? If it is normal,
0:16:09 > 0:16:14explain to us.A lot of people do not understand the hostess industry
0:16:14 > 0:16:24in general. We are event support. It is very professional. The girls are
0:16:24 > 0:16:31engaged to support events in a capacity of professionalism. They
0:16:31 > 0:16:39are used as meet and greet and hospitality. Not just girls. I am
0:16:39 > 0:16:42proudest is a professional environment. I have had a business
0:16:42 > 0:16:47for five years and have worked in it for six years myself. I would not
0:16:47 > 0:16:52put girls in a position where they feel uncomfortable.Do you think
0:16:52 > 0:16:57your industry is now in trouble as a result of this?I guess that is why
0:16:57 > 0:17:03I wanted to come on today foot of this industry provides great
0:17:03 > 0:17:08professional safe work for actresses, dancers, and models. I'd
0:17:08 > 0:17:13feel it is positive. Students as well. It is a positive and safe
0:17:13 > 0:17:20industry. What I did want to bring up is I do feel there should be more
0:17:20 > 0:17:24regulation of this industry. I am very pro-employee rights, agency
0:17:24 > 0:17:29rights. I have been speaking to my local MP about this. I thought there
0:17:29 > 0:17:33should be a high level of protection.One question is where it
0:17:33 > 0:17:39starts being hypocritical. There are plenty of women who work in this
0:17:39 > 0:17:46industry, as Carolyn was saying. It might come across... Does it sound
0:17:46 > 0:17:50to you like a sexist industry, an industry you would want to tell
0:17:50 > 0:17:56women in general to get out because they are being hostesses?I think it
0:17:56 > 0:18:01is this eventful more to say about the men in this event and the
0:18:01 > 0:18:06organisers of this event. Feeling you can use them. Would be just as
0:18:06 > 0:18:10bad if it were men being told to wear tight trousers and butter now
0:18:10 > 0:18:16shouts. The fact is the NDA is in particular, you cannot sign away
0:18:16 > 0:18:23your what -- your rights. You cannot sign something where you agree harm
0:18:23 > 0:18:28against yourself and stop it is being used, not because it is
0:18:28 > 0:18:33legally binding that as a bullying tactics.We do have a role to play
0:18:33 > 0:18:42for that we are hired as hospitality. We are signed as meet
0:18:42 > 0:18:47and greets. This is an actual job that girls are providing. We are
0:18:47 > 0:18:52event support. It is about making it run smoothly.Thank you both very
0:18:52 > 0:18:55much.
0:18:55 > 0:18:58The fire at Grenfell left a profound effect on a whole community.
0:18:58 > 0:19:00Not just those who suffered so terribly from its effects,
0:19:00 > 0:19:02but also those who came to their rescue that
0:19:02 > 0:19:04dreadful night in June.
0:19:04 > 0:19:05Many of the fire fighters have sought counselling
0:19:05 > 0:19:06and support since then.
0:19:06 > 0:19:10124 have received it directly, another 500 have been contacted
0:19:10 > 0:19:15by London Fire Brigades Counselling and welfare teams.
0:19:15 > 0:19:18At its helm is Dany Cotton, the first ever female boss
0:19:18 > 0:19:22of the London Fire Brigade, who in her first year, oversaw
0:19:22 > 0:19:25London's repeated terrorist attacks and Grenfell.
0:19:25 > 0:19:28Tonight, we speak to her and to one of her firefighters.
0:19:28 > 0:19:31Ricky Nuttall wrote an emotional poem in the week after Grenfell.
0:19:31 > 0:19:33It's the first time he's spoken publicly
0:19:33 > 0:19:41about what happened on the night, and the impact it had.
0:19:49 > 0:19:53I still feel guilt and I think I will feel eternally guilty.
0:19:53 > 0:19:55When so many people, innocent people, lose their lives,
0:19:55 > 0:20:00it's very, very hard to take.
0:20:00 > 0:20:02I would defy anyone who attended that night not to have been
0:20:02 > 0:20:03affected, in some way.
0:20:03 > 0:20:05And it definitely did affect me.
0:20:05 > 0:20:11The whole incident was so overwhelming.
0:20:11 > 0:20:14You know, I've, sort of, gone to work one person and I've
0:20:14 > 0:20:16come back, effectively, a different person.
0:20:16 > 0:20:18With the police investigation and inquiry ongoing,
0:20:18 > 0:20:20it's very rare for firefighters to speak publicly about
0:20:20 > 0:20:28what happened at Grenfell.
0:20:31 > 0:20:34Right, stretcher and myself are both in the system.
0:20:34 > 0:20:37And this week, the London Fire Brigade gave Newsnight access to two
0:20:37 > 0:20:38staff members who were there.
0:20:38 > 0:20:40During a training session at London's Chelsea fire station,
0:20:40 > 0:20:42we met Ricky Nuttall, a firefighter from
0:20:42 > 0:20:44Battersea Red Watch, who went into Grenfell
0:20:44 > 0:20:48more than once.
0:20:48 > 0:20:56And the commissioner, who led the operation that night.
0:20:58 > 0:21:01It was...
0:21:01 > 0:21:03It was immediately obvious how serious a fire it was
0:21:03 > 0:21:05and how bad a fire it was.
0:21:05 > 0:21:08You know, you get called to a high-rise fire and you expect
0:21:08 > 0:21:09to see flames in a window.
0:21:09 > 0:21:10Not...
0:21:10 > 0:21:11Multiple windows.
0:21:11 > 0:21:15I think, for me, the main image that will always last in my memory
0:21:15 > 0:21:16is when I first arrived.
0:21:16 > 0:21:19And when I looked up at the building and thought to
0:21:19 > 0:21:22myself, "This just can't be happening, here".
0:21:22 > 0:21:30And, for me, the responsibility was absolutely enormous, on that night.
0:21:30 > 0:21:33You know, I haven't been backwards in coming forwards about saying
0:21:33 > 0:21:36I went and sought counselling quite early with our counselling
0:21:36 > 0:21:38well-being team.
0:21:38 > 0:21:41I know that when I joined, a very long time ago, you know,
0:21:41 > 0:21:44we didn't much talk about stuff, because we just got on with stuff.
0:21:44 > 0:21:46And, actually, that was the way it was.
0:21:46 > 0:21:49Most of the firefighters around this table attended the Grenfell fire.
0:21:49 > 0:21:51I saw my counsellor last week.
0:21:51 > 0:21:53Their Commissioner's been open about the psychological impact
0:21:53 > 0:21:56and the experience on her.
0:21:56 > 0:21:58The LFB has had a mental health awareness drive
0:21:58 > 0:22:05to support its staff since the fire.
0:22:05 > 0:22:08The watch at the fire station are quite a close watch.
0:22:08 > 0:22:10They've been there for each other and talked about
0:22:10 > 0:22:11things in great depth.
0:22:11 > 0:22:12124 firefighters have received individual counselling,
0:22:12 > 0:22:17directly related to Grenfell in the months since.
0:22:17 > 0:22:19You don't realise you're going through it.
0:22:19 > 0:22:21It's only when you start coming through the other side,
0:22:21 > 0:22:24you look back at your mindset, your attitude.
0:22:24 > 0:22:26For Ricky, Grenfell was the catalyst for his own mental
0:22:26 > 0:22:28health difficulties.
0:22:28 > 0:22:30He too is having counselling.
0:22:30 > 0:22:33It's the first time he's spoken to the media about what happened.
0:22:33 > 0:22:37The sheer scale of the incident was like nothing I've ever seen before
0:22:37 > 0:22:40and, hopefully, will never see it again.
0:22:40 > 0:22:44So, any feelings after that, they, sort of, reared
0:22:44 > 0:22:47their heads at a later point.
0:22:47 > 0:22:50You know, in the days and the weeks and the months afterwards.
0:22:50 > 0:22:51Did you hit a crisis point?
0:22:51 > 0:22:56I mean, how did you realise?
0:22:56 > 0:22:58One morning I, literally, just... Sort of...
0:22:58 > 0:23:06I guess... Had a form of a breakdown.
0:23:06 > 0:23:09You know, I started crying and I couldn't stop
0:23:09 > 0:23:10for a good few hours.
0:23:10 > 0:23:13And I phoned my girlfriend and I phoned my dad and I spoke
0:23:13 > 0:23:16to family and I'm very lucky that I've got a very close family.
0:23:16 > 0:23:17Who I can rely on.
0:23:17 > 0:23:20But that was the moment, really, that I realised I need...
0:23:20 > 0:23:21You know, this is...
0:23:21 > 0:23:25I'm not in a good place, I need more help here.
0:23:25 > 0:23:28I was offered, by my GP, when I spoke to my GP,
0:23:28 > 0:23:31she asked me, "You know, do you need time off work?"
0:23:31 > 0:23:34And, to be honest with you, that's the last thing I wanted.
0:23:34 > 0:23:37I wanted to be at work, sort of, speaking to people that have been...
0:23:37 > 0:23:41That were there at the incident with me and that, you know, have
0:23:41 > 0:23:43had their own struggles and stuff.
0:23:43 > 0:23:46Because you belong there, you know, they're like a second family.
0:23:46 > 0:23:50How valuable has it been, the fact that your boss,
0:23:50 > 0:23:52your top loss, Dany Cotton, has talked very openly
0:23:52 > 0:23:53about the counselling she is having?
0:23:53 > 0:23:55I think it's...
0:23:55 > 0:24:00Unquantifiably important.
0:24:00 > 0:24:04I think it just reassures people when you say, "OK, you know,
0:24:04 > 0:24:07I haven't got anything to be fearful of here, no-one is going to throw me
0:24:07 > 0:24:09on the scrapheap, I'm having some problems,
0:24:09 > 0:24:11but so is the Chief".
0:24:11 > 0:24:14Ready when you guys are...
0:24:14 > 0:24:17More than half of a firefighter's working life is spent
0:24:17 > 0:24:19in training scenarios.
0:24:19 > 0:24:22It's been widely reported that the fire at Grenfell didn't
0:24:22 > 0:24:26behave as firefighter had expected it to, but here, they believed
0:24:26 > 0:24:30they were as prepared as they could have been.
0:24:30 > 0:24:34Casualties on the deck.
0:24:34 > 0:24:36You know, I'd be lying if I said I wasn't apprehensive
0:24:36 > 0:24:39about going in, if I didn't feel a bit scared.
0:24:39 > 0:24:41But I felt confident in the capabilities of my equipment
0:24:41 > 0:24:44and the capabilities of myself, through the training I had received.
0:24:44 > 0:24:46And with the people I'm going in with.
0:24:46 > 0:24:48You know, they're people that I work with most days
0:24:48 > 0:24:50of the week for a lot of years.
0:24:50 > 0:24:52They're people that I trust with my life.
0:24:52 > 0:24:54The conditions themselves weren't too dissimilar to any others.
0:24:54 > 0:24:57The effort you had to put in was different,
0:24:57 > 0:24:59because of the length of time you were in the incident for.
0:24:59 > 0:25:02In a two-storey building, going up one flight of stairs...
0:25:02 > 0:25:05Going up a flight of stairs in a fire condition is hard work.
0:25:05 > 0:25:10It's smoky, you have poor visibility.
0:25:10 > 0:25:13Going up one flight of stairs in Grenfell was exactly the same.
0:25:13 > 0:25:16With the difference that you've got to go up to 20 flights of stairs
0:25:16 > 0:25:18or 15 flights of stairs.
0:25:18 > 0:25:19Which, obviously, is much more taxing.
0:25:19 > 0:25:27The conditions were very, very hard.
0:25:28 > 0:25:31After Grenfell, fire stations across London received an outpouring
0:25:31 > 0:25:34of support from the public.
0:25:34 > 0:25:37The horror of the tragedy affected so many.
0:25:37 > 0:25:39And there are questions about whether more lives
0:25:39 > 0:25:41could have been saved.
0:25:41 > 0:25:43Our filming was agreed on the basis that neither
0:25:43 > 0:25:45could talk about the specifics of what happened, because of
0:25:45 > 0:25:48the ongoing investigation.
0:25:48 > 0:25:50But I did ask the Commissioner about the "stay put" advice
0:25:50 > 0:25:53given to Grenfell residents.
0:25:53 > 0:25:56Do you ever, in the middle of the night, wake up,
0:25:56 > 0:25:59as part of your coming to terms with this and think,
0:25:59 > 0:26:00"Did we give the right advice?
0:26:00 > 0:26:02Should we have told people to leave?"
0:26:02 > 0:26:04I can't answer that.
0:26:04 > 0:26:05Because of the investigation?
0:26:05 > 0:26:06Because of the investigation.
0:26:06 > 0:26:09That is absolutely right, that is part of the investigation
0:26:09 > 0:26:12and it needs to come out, as part of that, so, you know...
0:26:12 > 0:26:16But, the whole purpose of what we do and the advice we give is normally
0:26:16 > 0:26:19based on an absolute sound set of principles about how
0:26:19 > 0:26:21buildings behave in fire.
0:26:21 > 0:26:23And the normal advice about staying inside,
0:26:23 > 0:26:26if your flat is not affected, is the right advice to give,
0:26:26 > 0:26:28because that's what goes in, day in, day out,
0:26:28 > 0:26:29through the whole of the UK.
0:26:29 > 0:26:32You know, and that's the way that buildings should respond.
0:26:32 > 0:26:33So...
0:26:33 > 0:26:36I just don't want to do anything to jeopardise the inquiry.
0:26:36 > 0:26:41It's really important to me that people get answers.
0:26:41 > 0:26:42You question yourself for weeks and months afterwards,
0:26:42 > 0:26:44"Did I do everything?
0:26:44 > 0:26:45Could I have pushed a bit harder?
0:26:45 > 0:26:48Could I have done anything different?"
0:26:48 > 0:26:51As long as you can answer those questions honestly to yourself
0:26:51 > 0:26:53and know that you couldn't have pushed any harder and know that
0:26:53 > 0:26:57you did do everything you could, and, literally, went out of your way
0:26:57 > 0:26:59as much as possible to help those people, which I did,
0:26:59 > 0:27:03and I'm happy and confident that I did, then at least
0:27:03 > 0:27:06whether the guilt is there or not, I can square that
0:27:06 > 0:27:09away as unwarranted.
0:27:09 > 0:27:12For me, you know, it is about knowing that people gave their all.
0:27:12 > 0:27:15I saw firefighters who were lying on the ground, exhausted,
0:27:15 > 0:27:18completely and utterly drained.
0:27:18 > 0:27:20And yet, within ten minutes, they wanted to go back
0:27:20 > 0:27:22in and recommit and do it all again.
0:27:22 > 0:27:28Because everybody just had that absolute sheer sense of purpose.
0:27:28 > 0:27:30My breaths were too few.
0:27:30 > 0:27:34My body exhausted.
0:27:34 > 0:27:37Now mentally, too.
0:27:37 > 0:27:39The silence of death...
0:27:39 > 0:27:42Immediately after Grenfell, Ricky wrote a poem to try to make
0:27:42 > 0:27:44sense of what happened.
0:27:44 > 0:27:48It's now been made into a video to get the message out further.
0:27:48 > 0:27:49One firefighter's feelings shared by many, no doubt,
0:27:49 > 0:27:53about the impact of the fire.
0:27:53 > 0:27:55I just felt broken.
0:27:55 > 0:27:57Heartbroken by what had happened, heartbroken to think
0:27:57 > 0:28:00about the people that had suffered.
0:28:00 > 0:28:04Heartbroken that I couldn't do more.
0:28:04 > 0:28:08So I don't think I'll ever...
0:28:08 > 0:28:11Sort of, you know, square Grenfell away as, "Oh,
0:28:11 > 0:28:16I'm fine about that," I won't ever be fine about it.
0:28:16 > 0:28:22I don't think anyone will.
0:28:22 > 0:28:25Cape Town - one of the most beautiful cities in the world -
0:28:25 > 0:28:28is on the brink of crisis: a drought so severe the city's taps
0:28:28 > 0:28:31may run completely dry.
0:28:31 > 0:28:35Years of unseasonably dry weather means the sprawling city,
0:28:35 > 0:28:38home to four million people, could become the first major
0:28:38 > 0:28:42metropolis to run out of water.
0:28:42 > 0:28:45Experts believe unless residents come together to radically reduce
0:28:45 > 0:28:47the amount they use, the taps and toilets
0:28:47 > 0:28:50will run dry on April 12th.
0:28:50 > 0:28:55It's an event the authorities are calling "Day Zero".
0:28:55 > 0:29:03Over the last two years, the city has seen historically low rainfall,
0:29:03 > 0:29:07with 153.5mm recorded at Cape Town's airport
0:29:07 > 0:29:10in 2017 compared to more than 500mm in 2014.
0:29:10 > 0:29:14If that happens, businesses say that overnight they will have
0:29:14 > 0:29:16to shut down or cut back on staff, putting more pressure
0:29:16 > 0:29:17on South Africa's stagnant economy.
0:29:17 > 0:29:20The city's residents are already heavily restricted on how much water
0:29:20 > 0:29:23they can use and have been told to cut down even more.
0:29:23 > 0:29:26Well, a short time ago I spoke to the Premier
0:29:26 > 0:29:27of Western Cape, Helen Zille.
0:29:27 > 0:29:29She is the former leader of the Democratic Alliance and has
0:29:29 > 0:29:32been in charge of the Cape Town region as both Mayor
0:29:32 > 0:29:36and Premier for over a decade.
0:29:36 > 0:29:38I asked her what she expects will happen in the city
0:29:38 > 0:29:42when Day Zero hits.
0:29:42 > 0:29:44Well, first of all, we are trying to prevent Day Zero,
0:29:44 > 0:29:47for all we're worth.
0:29:47 > 0:29:49But, when the dams are, on average 13.5% full,
0:29:49 > 0:29:53we will announce Day Zero.
0:29:53 > 0:29:56That means that the taps to much of Cape Town will be switched off
0:29:56 > 0:30:00and we will have to rely on the distribution and the fetching
0:30:00 > 0:30:06of water for people to have drinking water in their homes.
0:30:06 > 0:30:12Do you actually think the taps in Cape Town will run dry then?
0:30:12 > 0:30:13Well, there is a chance of that.
0:30:13 > 0:30:18There's no doubt about that. We're not too far from 13.5%, now.
0:30:18 > 0:30:24We're at 26% and we have a way to go till the winter rains come.
0:30:24 > 0:30:25So, unless every single person cuts water consumption
0:30:25 > 0:30:32for all their usages out of the municipal system to under 50
0:30:32 > 0:30:35litres per person per day, we will hit Day Zero.
0:30:35 > 0:30:36We're doing everything we can to prevent it,
0:30:36 > 0:30:39but that is the reality.
0:30:39 > 0:30:43Our viewers will know that Cape Town is a city of huge inequality.
0:30:43 > 0:30:45There is enormous wealth, gardens with sprinklers, swimming pools.
0:30:45 > 0:30:48Is water still going into those resources now?
0:30:48 > 0:30:51Definitely not.
0:30:51 > 0:30:54People are not allowed to fill summing pools.
0:30:54 > 0:30:58People have not been allowed to water their gardens
0:30:58 > 0:31:00for a very long time.
0:31:00 > 0:31:02People have been very innovative.
0:31:02 > 0:31:04What are we to make, then, of these reports
0:31:04 > 0:31:09of resentment of anger, that some citizens feel about others
0:31:09 > 0:31:13overusing their water, refusing to modify their behaviour?
0:31:13 > 0:31:17Yes, there is a lot of anger, and I can understand that, absolutely.
0:31:17 > 0:31:19You know, South Africans are very good in pulling
0:31:19 > 0:31:24together in a real crisis.
0:31:24 > 0:31:26But our back has got to be against the wall,
0:31:26 > 0:31:28before we can read the writing on it.
0:31:28 > 0:31:33What I'm saying to South Africans now, especially Capetonians,
0:31:33 > 0:31:36is that our backs are against the wall,
0:31:36 > 0:31:39is that our backs are against the wall, and let's do what we've
0:31:39 > 0:31:43done many times before in Cape Town and in South Africa,
0:31:43 > 0:31:45particularly, and pull ourselves out of the hole we've
0:31:45 > 0:31:47dug by our bootstraps.
0:31:47 > 0:31:49You have said in the past that this is a challenge that
0:31:49 > 0:31:53exceeds anything a major city has had to face anywhere in the world
0:31:53 > 0:31:54since World War II or 9/11.
0:31:54 > 0:31:57Is that hyperbole or do you believe it's that serious, now?
0:31:57 > 0:31:59Well, I believe running out of water is that serious.
0:31:59 > 0:32:02There are four and a half million people in Cape Town.
0:32:02 > 0:32:05If municipal water systems run dry in a city of this
0:32:05 > 0:32:10size, it is serious, and it is that serious.
0:32:10 > 0:32:12I'm not saying it's bigger than 9/11, but I'm
0:32:12 > 0:32:15saying it poses as much of a challenge as a catastrophe such
0:32:15 > 0:32:20as 9/11 did, but in a completely different way.
0:32:20 > 0:32:23So, that's why we have all hands on deck, but we have more time
0:32:24 > 0:32:27to prepare than they did at 9/11 and that's what makes a difference
0:32:27 > 0:32:29and we have to be prepared.
0:32:29 > 0:32:32Do you have a message, at this point for Western leaders,
0:32:32 > 0:32:34for your leaders watching this, to try and understand
0:32:34 > 0:32:40the gravity of the situation?
0:32:40 > 0:32:42My message is simply this: we have to keep our water
0:32:42 > 0:32:49consumption until the rains come and even after the rains have
0:32:49 > 0:32:55come, to below 50 litres per person, per day.
0:32:55 > 0:32:58This drought could never have been foreseen.
0:32:58 > 0:33:01The South African Weather Services have said to me that their models
0:33:01 > 0:33:03don't work any more, in an era of climate change.
0:33:03 > 0:33:06The climate change projections were to have hit us in 2025.
0:33:06 > 0:33:09They came ten years before that.
0:33:09 > 0:33:12This is very real and very challenging.
0:33:12 > 0:33:16And we all have to pull together, when the experts can't predict
0:33:16 > 0:33:20anything any more, and we have to make sure that we control
0:33:20 > 0:33:23what we can control, which is our own behaviour.
0:33:23 > 0:33:29And make sure we are ready for Day Zero and that we're
0:33:29 > 0:33:31pulling together as, really, South Africans can
0:33:31 > 0:33:36do, when they need to.
0:33:36 > 0:33:39Earlier this evening, the death was announced
0:33:39 > 0:33:41of Mark E Smith, founder, frontman and sometimes
0:33:41 > 0:33:44fearsome capo of the British post-punk rockers The Fall.
0:33:44 > 0:33:47He was 60.
0:33:47 > 0:33:49Mark E Smith was one of many stars-to-be who attended
0:33:49 > 0:33:52a near-mythical Sex Pistols gig in his native Manchester in 1976,
0:33:52 > 0:33:54and decided a career in music was for him.
0:33:54 > 0:33:58Through four decades, and more than 30 albums,
0:33:58 > 0:34:01Smith was the one constant in The Fall, parting company
0:34:01 > 0:34:03with more than 50 band members and entourage,
0:34:03 > 0:34:05including a number of his own wives.
0:34:05 > 0:34:08Many fellow musicians have been offering tributes
0:34:08 > 0:34:13to Smith this evening, though it's doubtful if any
0:34:13 > 0:34:15of them will quite compare to his own farewell to his champion,
0:34:15 > 0:34:17the late DJ John Peel.
0:34:17 > 0:34:19That made for one of the truly memorable Newsnight moments,
0:34:19 > 0:34:22as Stephen Smith reports.
0:34:27 > 0:34:32I came top in English, like, two years on the run and they never
0:34:32 > 0:34:41thought it was me. I like that, it was good being a Smiths, you get
0:34:41 > 0:34:44away with murder, you know.
0:34:49 > 0:34:54Even by the standards of punk, from which The Fall emerged, Mark E Smith
0:34:54 > 0:35:02was unlikely front man.Let me tune it up. Just play it. Couldn't play
0:35:02 > 0:35:06an instrument, couldn't dance and with a vocal style once described as
0:35:06 > 0:35:11a unique one note delivery somewhere between amphetamine spiked rant and
0:35:11 > 0:35:20alcohol Yadav yarn --
0:35:20 > 0:35:23alcohol Yadav yarn -- alcohol yaddled yarn.But he outlasted
0:35:23 > 0:35:27almost all of his contemporaries, becoming a unique and influential
0:35:27 > 0:35:33figure in British music and culture. He was the one constant of The
0:35:33 > 0:35:38Fall's line-up. By one estimate, the band got 366 members in its four
0:35:38 > 0:35:42decades or so. Smith said he was the only man apart from Kalex Mac prince
0:35:42 > 0:35:51who could recruit talent off the street. -- apart from Prince.
0:35:51 > 0:35:57As for his songwriting, one critic called it a kind of northern English
0:35:57 > 0:36:02magic realism that mixed industrial grime with the North Lake that with
0:36:02 > 0:36:09the unearthly and the uncanny.
0:36:09 > 0:36:14-- mixed industrial grime with the unearthly. The former champion by
0:36:14 > 0:36:18the Radio 1 DJ John Peel on it was inevitable that grub turned to Smith
0:36:18 > 0:36:23went John Peel died in 2004 -- that Newsnight turned to Smith. He became
0:36:23 > 0:36:27obsessed with The Fall from various points, he played endlessly and
0:36:27 > 0:36:34endlessly, must have been an incredible compliment.What, for The
0:36:34 > 0:36:41Fall?Yeah.Yeah. Me and John had an agreement, we were never friends or
0:36:41 > 0:36:44anything like that. This is what I admired about him, he was always
0:36:44 > 0:36:51objective. People forget that.I'm interested to know what you thought
0:36:51 > 0:36:54of his programme, Mark? When you listened to it, presumably you
0:36:54 > 0:36:58listen to it a lot.I listened to it in the early 70s when I was a
0:36:58 > 0:37:04teenager and that. And I heard a lot of Jamaican staff and German staff
0:37:04 > 0:37:12through him. -- German
0:37:13 > 0:37:18.He seemed to find something for every generation including The Fall?
0:37:18 > 0:37:24Am I allowed to speak now?Yeah, go ahead.Yeah, whatever you say. Are
0:37:24 > 0:37:35you the new DJ?Yeah, probably, probably.
0:37:38 > 0:37:42Truth be told, an interview with Mark E Smith was sometimes even more
0:37:42 > 0:37:47enjoyable than a new album. In one of his last interviews, Smith said
0:37:47 > 0:37:51"People still cross the road from me, I've still got that, I can clear
0:37:51 > 0:37:57a pub when I want to, it's a talent".
0:37:57 > 0:38:00I'm joined now by Tim Burgess from The Charlatans.
0:38:00 > 0:38:03He was a close friend of Mark E Smith and he's with us
0:38:03 > 0:38:05on Skype from Cheshire.
0:38:05 > 0:38:12It's very nice of you to join us. Manchester and Salford boys, you
0:38:12 > 0:38:19must be feeling this very deeply tonight?I'm gutted. It's a
0:38:19 > 0:38:25really... You know, if they really sad night to night. -- it's a really
0:38:25 > 0:38:30sad night tonight.He was such a character. We saw him at his best or
0:38:30 > 0:38:36maybe you think at his worst in the Newsnight Ndidi but he took so much
0:38:36 > 0:38:40pleasure in that cantankerous nurse and rebelliousness -- Newsnight
0:38:40 > 0:38:45interview.He was always unpredictable. I have loved The Fall
0:38:45 > 0:38:49since I was 15 years old. They had been there all my life. Mark has
0:38:49 > 0:38:55been there all through my life. So, you know, it's really sad news. I
0:38:55 > 0:39:01did get to know him. You know, we became friends. You know, I would
0:39:01 > 0:39:07just sit and listen to his stories, really. He's just fascinating. You
0:39:07 > 0:39:13know, quoting Nietzsche one minute and then scrounging a cigarette the
0:39:13 > 0:39:23next minutes. His favourite artist was Weird Al Yankovich and he really
0:39:23 > 0:39:29meant it.He drew on everything and he used a lot of poetry, he was very
0:39:29 > 0:39:33lyrical. And sci-fi came into his work as well, didn't it? Was there
0:39:33 > 0:39:41anything he didn't touch?No. You know, every lyric is just pure gold,
0:39:41 > 0:39:49really.What do you make of that idea, Steve was counting up the band
0:39:49 > 0:39:53members he'd lost along the way. But he used that amazing phrase that he
0:39:53 > 0:39:58could recruit from the street. What was that? Was that a very personal
0:39:58 > 0:40:04approach? Or was it something that he spotted in other people?Because
0:40:04 > 0:40:13he is a nonmusician, I think to find a rawness in other people, that
0:40:13 > 0:40:20helped him propel his vision. You know, he was always in the present.
0:40:20 > 0:40:25You know, he, kind of, you know, always relevant. And I think... That
0:40:25 > 0:40:32one of the reasons.John Peel described The Fall is always
0:40:32 > 0:40:39different and always the same. I wonder if you can, sort of, unpick
0:40:39 > 0:40:43that's for us, how do you hear that? Well, any time I ever spent time
0:40:43 > 0:40:51with him he would always ask what my dad did. Or what does your dad too.
0:40:51 > 0:40:55I obviously told him he worked in a chemical factory but he always used
0:40:55 > 0:41:01to find that really important. I always used to... You know, I
0:41:01 > 0:41:04wouldn't feel satisfied that I've had a proper conversation with him
0:41:04 > 0:41:10unless he asked me that question.I guess, in some ways, we know he
0:41:10 > 0:41:17stopped touring and his death was not completely unexpected, but, give
0:41:17 > 0:41:21us, if you can, your sense of the memory or the phrase, I don't know,
0:41:21 > 0:41:27the look that will remain with you from his friendship.Just... Well...
0:41:27 > 0:41:33I mean... I'll always think of him as a genius.
0:41:34 > 0:41:41I can't really say much more than that. Smiling.
0:41:41 > 0:41:47Laughing in the pub.It's great to speak to you, thank you.You are
0:41:47 > 0:41:47welcome.
0:41:47 > 0:41:48That's all we have time for.
0:41:48 > 0:42:01I will be back tomorrow. I hope to see you then. Goodbye.