0:00:08 > 0:00:11Of course he's going to reoffend, but I think the one thing that's
0:00:11 > 0:00:12worrying me and possibly other people,
0:00:12 > 0:00:20is the fact that he knows where we lived.
0:00:20 > 0:00:24Tonight, one of the women fighting to keep the black cab rapist in jail
0:00:24 > 0:00:26talks at length for the first time about her own ordeal
0:00:26 > 0:00:32and her determination to keep John Worboys behind bars.
0:00:32 > 0:00:34Also tonight, brace yourselves for Brexit, Round 2,
0:00:34 > 0:00:35starting next week.
0:00:35 > 0:00:43What are the big battlegrounds?
0:00:43 > 0:00:47The EU 27 showed impressive unity throughout the first phase of
0:00:47 > 0:00:51negotiations.That, for months, people in Brussels have been telling
0:00:51 > 0:00:54me that they're not quite so confident it will be so united in
0:00:54 > 0:00:56phase two.
0:00:56 > 0:00:58And, the beers and the barbies are out for Australia Day.
0:00:58 > 0:01:01But is it time to end celebrations of the day the British
0:01:01 > 0:01:04arrived and the subjugation of the indiginous people began?
0:01:13 > 0:01:14Good evening.
0:01:14 > 0:01:17There was some relief tonight for the more than 100 victims
0:01:17 > 0:01:21of rapist John Worboys.
0:01:21 > 0:01:25His imminent release from jail has been put on hold.
0:01:25 > 0:01:29Two of the women that he raped today successfully obtained a High Court
0:01:29 > 0:01:31order, which means the man known as "the black cab rapist"
0:01:31 > 0:01:35is staying in prison, for now.
0:01:35 > 0:01:39Worboys, who attacked his passengers after plying them with drink he'd
0:01:39 > 0:01:44spiked, was sentenced in 2009 to eight years in jail
0:01:44 > 0:01:47plus an indeterminate sentence, to be decided by the parole board.
0:01:47 > 0:01:50That trial involved just 12 of his victims,
0:01:50 > 0:01:53because the then-Director of Public Prosecutions decided
0:01:53 > 0:01:56that the evidence of those 12 was the best way to secure
0:01:56 > 0:01:59a lengthy sentence.
0:01:59 > 0:02:04Tonight, we speak to one of the two women who won today's ruling.
0:02:04 > 0:02:06She was raped on the 6th of May 2003, but the police
0:02:06 > 0:02:09dismissed her story.
0:02:09 > 0:02:15It was only five years later, when the Met appealed for victims
0:02:15 > 0:02:19to come forward following many more rapes, that she was believed.
0:02:19 > 0:02:22After Worboys went to jail, the woman, who wishes
0:02:22 > 0:02:26to remain anonymous, successfully sued the police
0:02:26 > 0:02:29for violation of her human rights in the initial investigation,
0:02:29 > 0:02:32a decision they are still contesting.
0:02:32 > 0:02:35I spoke to her today, before the new Worboys ruling,
0:02:35 > 0:02:41about her own 15-year ordeal.
0:02:42 > 0:02:47What happened to you that night?
0:02:47 > 0:02:51I remember going out, meeting friends, having a meal, going on to
0:02:51 > 0:02:55a couple of pubs and bars with them. My group of friends hailed a cab for
0:02:55 > 0:03:01me. One common particular, was talking to him for a good five, ten
0:03:01 > 0:03:06minutes while I was saying goodbye to everybody. I got in the cab. Next
0:03:06 > 0:03:08memory is waking up in hospital.
0:03:10 > 0:03:16Feeling very disorientated, very distressed, knowing, instantly, that
0:03:16 > 0:03:22something had happened.What had happened when you got into the cab?
0:03:22 > 0:03:27Did he engage in conversation straightaway?I mean, he was very,
0:03:27 > 0:03:32very chatty, like most black cab drivers are. Didn't find that
0:03:32 > 0:03:37threatening, in any way, because he seems like a normal cab driver. And
0:03:37 > 0:03:44he offered me a drink. Which I said, first of all, I said, I didn't want
0:03:44 > 0:03:51the drink. But then, because he gave me the drink, I took a sip of it.
0:03:51 > 0:03:55But it was not a nice drink. And because I'd gone home at that point
0:03:55 > 0:04:00because I was consciously not drinking too much because I had to
0:04:00 > 0:04:05get on with my baby in the morning. And it was a very strong this year,
0:04:05 > 0:04:09sort of like an orange lick
0:04:12 > 0:04:21. We went over a speed bump. But he gave me another one. It was one of
0:04:21 > 0:04:26those situations and failures, beat myself up over it, thinking, why did
0:04:26 > 0:04:31I accept that drink? But it was a situation where you just think, just
0:04:31 > 0:04:34drink it and you're going to get home and that's fine. And then he
0:04:34 > 0:04:41pulled over in a side road. And I remember him getting in the back of
0:04:41 > 0:04:44the cab with me and offering me a cigarette. And then that's the only
0:04:44 > 0:04:54memory I have until waking up the next morning.But, as far as a
0:04:56 > 0:04:56next morning.But, as far as a rape was concerned, evidentially, what
0:04:56 > 0:05:02was there?Well, I was told by the police there was no drugs in my
0:05:02 > 0:05:09system. And there was, obviously, no DNA evidence.Because he was using a
0:05:09 > 0:05:15condom.Yes. Which they said at the time was what they were expecting. I
0:05:15 > 0:05:18was very shocked at them saying there was no drugs or anything in my
0:05:18 > 0:05:23system. Because I knew there was. I knew, as soon as I had woken up,
0:05:23 > 0:05:26that I had been drugged.And there was evidence he had tried to use a
0:05:26 > 0:05:30lubricant or something?Yeah.And that was another reason you were
0:05:30 > 0:05:35sure. What impact did that have on you at the time?The thought that
0:05:35 > 0:05:41you've gone to all that trouble of going to the police, for them to say
0:05:41 > 0:05:45that a black cab driver, which they did say to me, a black cab driver
0:05:45 > 0:05:49wouldn't do it, and when they phoned to say they were closing the file, I
0:05:49 > 0:05:54was quite hysterical about it. Because I said, "You've let him get
0:05:54 > 0:06:01away with almost the perfect crime". He will reoffend.How does it all
0:06:01 > 0:06:07really engage again?There was an appeal on the knees. -- an appeal on
0:06:07 > 0:06:12the means. I thought, I can't go through this again, can't be
0:06:12 > 0:06:16disbelieved and made to feel that I've made it all up all over again,
0:06:16 > 0:06:20can't do it. I can't get involved in any of this. So, I did delay
0:06:20 > 0:06:27probably for a day or so. But, then, I just thought, can't not do
0:06:27 > 0:06:33anything. I can't... Go forward.
0:06:33 > 0:06:37It's just so wrong, I have to do what I can to help with this appeal.
0:06:37 > 0:06:42So, I phoned them, the helpline number, the number they'd given.
0:06:42 > 0:06:47And, actually, the lady I spoke to, when I gave my details, she said my
0:06:47 > 0:06:54deals -- details had already been flagged on the system and they were
0:06:54 > 0:06:57going to be contacting you.You were so sure that your case was one of
0:06:57 > 0:07:00the cases that would go to court, so what happened?They explained it to
0:07:00 > 0:07:08me. That they couldn't... Convict him of every single one. Because,
0:07:08 > 0:07:13obviously, taking 83 victims into court, it would tie it up in court
0:07:13 > 0:07:18for years. It would confuse the jury. It would just be horrendous to
0:07:18 > 0:07:25try and do that.What was it like for you, then, during the trial?
0:07:25 > 0:07:31I... I just tried to ignore it as much as possible. It was too painful
0:07:31 > 0:07:35at the time. Hearing what had happened to the other women was
0:07:35 > 0:07:40very, very hard for me. I did feel, that point, very guilty, because I
0:07:40 > 0:07:45felt somehow responsible for what they went through.But that's
0:07:45 > 0:07:49because the police didn't believe you in 2003.The. I always felt that
0:07:49 > 0:07:54had they believed me, they could have stopped him. -- yes. One of the
0:07:54 > 0:08:00hardest days that I've had, through all of this, was when we went, when
0:08:00 > 0:08:06I had to go and identify him and sit in a room with 20 or 30 other
0:08:06 > 0:08:09victims. And feeling that they were all there because I wasn't believed.
0:08:09 > 0:08:13That was one of the worst things I've ever had to experience will
0:08:13 > 0:08:16stop looking at their faces and thinking, "You shouldn't be here"
0:08:16 > 0:08:19stop looking at their faces and thinking, "You shouldn't be here".
0:08:19 > 0:08:23How long do you think they would put him away for?I was under the
0:08:23 > 0:08:28impression he was going away for life. I never thought he'd be coming
0:08:28 > 0:08:36out.Where were you when you heard that Worboys was to be released?I
0:08:36 > 0:08:46was at home cooking my children's dinner. And it was on the news.
0:08:46 > 0:08:51I'll achieve felt that someone had kicked me in the stomach. -- I
0:08:51 > 0:08:54literally felt. And to hear that through the media, knowing what we'd
0:08:54 > 0:09:00all gone through just felt like we were being let down by the system
0:09:00 > 0:09:10again. It does feel like this system, as a whole, is more... Tries
0:09:10 > 0:09:14to protect Worboys more than his victims.Has anyone called you to
0:09:14 > 0:09:19offer support from, you know, the police services?No. As yet, nobody
0:09:19 > 0:09:24has been in contact with me. But then I've also heard reports that
0:09:24 > 0:09:28when they say "Victims", that only referring to the 12 victims that
0:09:28 > 0:09:35went to court. -- that they are only. And the other 80 Quill 70 odd
0:09:35 > 0:09:39victims, possibly more, that went to the police, that were linked to this
0:09:39 > 0:09:45case, but didn't have their cases taken to court, not classed as
0:09:45 > 0:09:51victims. We are alleged victims, so we have no rights. We have no voice.
0:09:51 > 0:09:56As far as I can see at the moment, Worboys could come out of prison
0:09:56 > 0:09:59tomorrow and live in the house next door to me and there was nothing I
0:09:59 > 0:10:08can do to prevent it.Are you fearful?Of course I am. I am very
0:10:08 > 0:10:15worried about this, because I know for a fact he will reoffend.
0:10:15 > 0:10:18Somebody cannot live their life for so many years committing these sorts
0:10:18 > 0:10:24of crimes and getting away with it for such a long period, refused to
0:10:24 > 0:10:26accept they've done anything wrong and then all of a sudden turn over a
0:10:26 > 0:10:31new leaf and be a model citizen. Of course he's going to reoffend. But I
0:10:31 > 0:10:37think the one thing that is worrying me, and possibly other people, is
0:10:37 > 0:10:43the fact that he knows where we lived. He did what he needed to do.
0:10:43 > 0:10:48He took the keys and took you and dumped you on your bed or your sofa.
0:10:48 > 0:10:52He was inside their homes. He knows where they live. He had a notebook
0:10:52 > 0:10:56with all our names and addresses in them.So how will you stop it?Well,
0:10:56 > 0:11:03that's why we are pushing for the judiciary review and hoping that
0:11:03 > 0:11:08they will reveal the reasons why they have decided that he is safe to
0:11:08 > 0:11:11come out. And then hopefully we can challenge that because it just
0:11:11 > 0:11:17doesn't make sense that somebody could be safe after being deemed
0:11:17 > 0:11:22just over a year ago or unsafe and open prison. That doesn't make sense
0:11:22 > 0:11:27to me at all.That was a parole board decision?That was a parole
0:11:27 > 0:11:31board decision.What do you think that parole board?I don't know what
0:11:31 > 0:11:36they base that on, at the moment. And that's what we need to know. --
0:11:36 > 0:11:39what they based that on. How they came to that conclusion. Because it
0:11:39 > 0:11:45doesn't make sense to anybody. It's really important that we do this
0:11:45 > 0:11:51crowdfunding.You are crowdfunding for case, to keep him behind bars.
0:11:51 > 0:11:56What impact does that have on you? Absolutely. My main motivation at
0:11:56 > 0:11:59the moment is that this is a very dangerous criminal. I have a
0:11:59 > 0:12:04daughter and I need to protect my daughter. And everybody else's
0:12:04 > 0:12:11daughter and everybody else's mothers and sisters. Women need to
0:12:11 > 0:12:14be protected from this man and that's why I'm doing this.For now,
0:12:14 > 0:12:18John Worboys remains in prison.
0:12:18 > 0:12:20Two contrasting headlines this morning concerning
0:12:20 > 0:12:21the Defence Secretary.
0:12:21 > 0:12:24On the Telegraph front page, Gavin Williamson warned that
0:12:24 > 0:12:28Russia is ready to kill us by the thousands.
0:12:28 > 0:12:30In the Mail, Mr Williamson was confessing to an office
0:12:30 > 0:12:32romance and how it nearly destroyed his marriage.
0:12:32 > 0:12:33Connected?
0:12:33 > 0:12:38Our political editor Nick Watt is here.
0:12:38 > 0:12:43What are you hearing? Our ambitious Defence Secretary, as you say, is in
0:12:43 > 0:12:46the news again. That story in the Daily Mail appears to have appeared
0:12:46 > 0:12:50after he was asking questions by the Guardian about his private life.
0:12:50 > 0:12:56There is a feeling in Whitehall that his account of what happened about
0:12:56 > 0:12:5915 years ago is plausible. And it is believed it is truthful. But I have
0:12:59 > 0:13:03to say that eyebrows are being raised in Whitehall and in the
0:13:03 > 0:13:07national security world about that article, that interview in the Daily
0:13:07 > 0:13:12Telegraph, which led to that headlined "Russia is ready to kill
0:13:12 > 0:13:16us by the thousands". He said two things about Russia, one is that
0:13:16 > 0:13:19they will target the gas and electricity interconnect connectors
0:13:19 > 0:13:25that link the UK to continental Europe. And that they are
0:13:25 > 0:13:27photographing power stations, electricity stations. I'm hearing
0:13:27 > 0:13:32language like this from the national security world. The Secretary of
0:13:32 > 0:13:34State for Defence is playing fast and loose with the national
0:13:34 > 0:13:38security, to distract from his private life.Downing Street, do
0:13:38 > 0:13:42they know?I think this was something that was known in the MoD
0:13:42 > 0:13:46that I am not sure other areas of Whitehall knew. I spoke to a good
0:13:46 > 0:13:50friend of Gavin Williams who says that he believes the Secretary of
0:13:50 > 0:13:53State has got pretty close to the line of what you should disclose,
0:13:53 > 0:13:58but hasn't actually crossed that line. Defence sources, what they are
0:13:58 > 0:14:00saying is that none of this information was classified
0:14:00 > 0:14:06intelligence. On those undersea interconnect is, the Secretary of
0:14:06 > 0:14:10State was speculating. But, again, from the national security world,
0:14:10 > 0:14:16they are saying that talking about Russia photographing electricity
0:14:16 > 0:14:21power stations, they believe that is very, very sensitive information.
0:14:21 > 0:14:25Safe in his job?For the moment. He is a former Chief Whip. What he
0:14:25 > 0:14:28knows is that if you are going to give an account about your private
0:14:28 > 0:14:32life, it needs to be plausible and it needs to be truthful. He knows
0:14:32 > 0:14:38that. So I am sure he will have sure that is the case.Thanks.
0:14:38 > 0:14:40The art of letter writing is not dead.
0:14:40 > 0:14:42In the last half hour, business leaders have received
0:14:42 > 0:14:45an epistle from three Cabinet ministers, Hammond, Davis and Clark,
0:14:45 > 0:14:47reaffirming their vision for the next stage of Brexit.
0:14:47 > 0:14:51It's a detailed letter.
0:14:51 > 0:14:54Here's a highlight, and I quote:
0:14:54 > 0:14:56"We will then finalise the text of the withdrawal agreement to give
0:14:56 > 0:15:00the implementation period legal form at the same time as we build out
0:15:00 > 0:15:02with the EU the framework for our deep and special future
0:15:02 > 0:15:04partnership".
0:15:04 > 0:15:06Stirring stuff.
0:15:06 > 0:15:09That's their version.
0:15:09 > 0:15:11Let's see if our Diplomatic Editor Mark Urban can make next week's
0:15:11 > 0:15:18phase two negotiations sound just a little bit more exciting.
0:15:18 > 0:15:21What happens first?
0:15:21 > 0:15:24Well, the Barnier-Davis talks are in abeyance.
0:15:24 > 0:15:29Instead, right now, in order to avoid a cliff edge,
0:15:29 > 0:15:33the UK falling out of the EU in March 2019, without a deal,
0:15:33 > 0:15:36they have to agree a transition phase.
0:15:36 > 0:15:39And they aim to do it very quickly, over the next few weeks.
0:15:39 > 0:15:42It's urgent and it is a high priority on the agenda.
0:15:42 > 0:15:44And we're hoping that that's going to be negotiated
0:15:44 > 0:15:47in the next couple of months.
0:15:47 > 0:15:49It's not entirely straightforward.
0:15:49 > 0:15:51I think we understand that the terms on offer are...
0:15:51 > 0:15:54It will be basically a continuation of the status quo.
0:15:54 > 0:15:57Although, of course, the UK would have left the EU,
0:15:57 > 0:16:00and therefore won't have a vote or seat at the table
0:16:00 > 0:16:08in future decisions.
0:16:12 > 0:16:15To avoid the fabled cliff edge and secure a transition,
0:16:15 > 0:16:19Theresa May's Florence speech already conceded many principles.
0:16:19 > 0:16:23Her Brexiteer MPs may not like it, but the extension of current EU
0:16:23 > 0:16:28rules, ongoing budget contributions and loss of voting rights
0:16:28 > 0:16:35were all signalled back in November.
0:16:35 > 0:16:38Now EU states also seem to be moving, yielding
0:16:38 > 0:16:44some important ground on the future trading relationship.
0:16:44 > 0:16:47Michel Barnier insisted, even last month, that UK had
0:16:47 > 0:16:52a binary choice between a single market Norway deal or a Canada-type
0:16:52 > 0:16:56trade deal, a point he rammed home with his graphic about
0:16:56 > 0:16:59Britain's Brexit choices.
0:16:59 > 0:17:02But the Canada comparison isn't really that useful,
0:17:02 > 0:17:07and is already being undermined by people like Emmanuel Macron,
0:17:07 > 0:17:10who is saying, quite clearly, that Britain could get something far
0:17:10 > 0:17:15more ambitious than Canada's free-trade treaty.
0:17:15 > 0:17:17You will have your own solution.
0:17:17 > 0:17:19And my willigness...
0:17:19 > 0:17:21There will be a bespoke special solution for Britain?
0:17:21 > 0:17:24Sure, but I take these two references.
0:17:24 > 0:17:29Because this "special way" should be consistent with the preservation
0:17:29 > 0:17:37of the single market and our collective interest.
0:17:39 > 0:17:42But if the EU is ready to concede a sliding scale of access,
0:17:42 > 0:17:48dependent on how closely the UK alliance with its rules,
0:17:48 > 0:17:50it's also used tough language in its guidelines about
0:17:50 > 0:17:54a level playing field.
0:17:54 > 0:17:57Under these terms, it'll try to close off the possibility
0:17:57 > 0:18:01of a deregulated Britain gaining a competitive advantage.
0:18:01 > 0:18:05What some Brexiteers call a Singapore model.
0:18:05 > 0:18:09Singapore has a very authoritarian regime.
0:18:09 > 0:18:14And a totally different conditions for the economy.
0:18:14 > 0:18:17But I believe United Kingdom is competitive, due to the fact
0:18:17 > 0:18:20that it has the best universities in Europe.
0:18:20 > 0:18:25That London will remain the most important financial hub,
0:18:25 > 0:18:32not only in Europe, but worldwide.
0:18:32 > 0:18:35The EU 27 showed impressive unity throughout the first
0:18:35 > 0:18:38phase of negotiations.
0:18:38 > 0:18:43But for months, people in Brussels have been telling me
0:18:43 > 0:18:46that they're not quite so confident it'll be so united in phase two.
0:18:46 > 0:18:49Some countries are far more closely integrated
0:18:49 > 0:18:51with the UK economy, after all.
0:18:51 > 0:18:54And some will have to pay more into the EU budget,
0:18:54 > 0:18:58as British contributions taper.
0:18:58 > 0:19:00UK diplomats might find gaps they can exploit.
0:19:00 > 0:19:04They're going to be negotiating a new financial agreement
0:19:04 > 0:19:07for the future in 2019.
0:19:07 > 0:19:10And without the British contributions for the future,
0:19:10 > 0:19:12the net contributors and the net recipient states may have
0:19:12 > 0:19:15different interests, there.
0:19:15 > 0:19:19And amid the snow-covered slopes of Davos, some European leaders
0:19:19 > 0:19:22appear to be going off piste, suggesting full single market
0:19:22 > 0:19:28access could be available, if the UK pays enough.
0:19:28 > 0:19:33There has to be some price for full access.
0:19:33 > 0:19:41And to what extent this access is going to be available
0:19:43 > 0:19:45has to be made dependent on some other...
0:19:45 > 0:19:46Contributions.
0:19:46 > 0:19:52Potentially including this financial contribution.
0:19:52 > 0:19:59Perhaps the biggest change in Brexit atmospherics, since the phase one
0:19:59 > 0:20:02Perhaps the biggest change in Brexit atmospherics since the phase one
0:20:02 > 0:20:04agreement last month, is that European leaders taking Britain's
0:20:04 > 0:20:07concessions of the Irish border as evidence that Downing Street
0:20:07 > 0:20:10is pursuing a softer way to Brexit, are starting to discuss
0:20:10 > 0:20:18the mutual interests in minimising trade destruction.
0:20:18 > 0:20:20the mutual interests in minimising trade disruption.
0:20:20 > 0:20:23The Dutch, for example, talking about wanting to minimise
0:20:23 > 0:20:24friction in their trade.
0:20:24 > 0:20:26The initial reaction that the United Kingdom must be punished
0:20:26 > 0:20:28is now changing and people begin to understand
0:20:28 > 0:20:32that the only reasonable solution is to find an arrangement
0:20:32 > 0:20:37that is the best possible for both sides.
0:20:37 > 0:20:41That takes into account the interests and the
0:20:41 > 0:20:48needs of both sides.
0:20:48 > 0:20:50And the hope that the view of the Dutch Prime Minister
0:20:50 > 0:20:53will be the common view in the European Union.
0:20:53 > 0:20:55The Dutch Prime Minister is in the same situation
0:20:55 > 0:20:56as the German Chancellor.
0:20:56 > 0:20:59For the German economy, it is extremely, extremely important
0:20:59 > 0:21:04not to damage the economic relation.
0:21:04 > 0:21:08Of course, what European leaders want are further signs that the UK
0:21:08 > 0:21:14intends to be very closely aligned on single market and customs rules.
0:21:14 > 0:21:20That possibility delights them.
0:21:20 > 0:21:23And one former commission Mandarin told me it could lead to speedy
0:21:23 > 0:21:26trade agreements including on access for the financial sector.
0:21:26 > 0:21:29The only problem in that case, he said, was, "I don't know how
0:21:29 > 0:21:34you could conclude meaningful trade deals of your own".
0:21:34 > 0:21:37Negotiators in Brussels will burn the midnight oil in coming months.
0:21:37 > 0:21:42But key choices, reconciling the global trading vision of Brexit
0:21:42 > 0:21:49with the mutual interest in keeping trade desruption
0:21:49 > 0:21:51with the mutual interest in keeping trade disruption
0:21:51 > 0:21:54to a minimum, must be taken by Theresa May's government.
0:21:54 > 0:22:01And soon.
0:22:01 > 0:22:04Every year, on the 26th of January, millions of Aussies take
0:22:04 > 0:22:12to the pubs, streets and beaches to commemorate Australia Day.
0:22:16 > 0:22:17Arms!
0:22:17 > 0:22:18Arms!
0:22:18 > 0:22:20On Australia Day, we come together and celebrate our nation
0:22:20 > 0:22:23and all of our history.
0:22:23 > 0:22:26ALL:Happy Australia Day!
0:22:26 > 0:22:29They drink beer, enjoy barbies and take pride in their country,
0:22:29 > 0:22:32its culture and its achievements.
0:22:32 > 0:22:34It's to celebrate everything that's good about Australia,
0:22:34 > 0:22:37the weather, family, friends.
0:22:37 > 0:22:38It's safe.
0:22:38 > 0:22:40It's fun, it's Australia.
0:22:40 > 0:22:44It's what we do.
0:22:44 > 0:22:47But, of late, Australia Day elicits just as much,
0:22:47 > 0:22:51if not more, protest and controversy than celebration.
0:22:51 > 0:22:55It's a day that's, you know, steeped in blood.
0:22:55 > 0:22:59It reminds me of violent dispossession of my people.
0:22:59 > 0:23:01Why are we having this on this date,
0:23:01 > 0:23:04if this is the date that is upsetting so many people?
0:23:04 > 0:23:08The date is a painful one, for indigenous Australians,
0:23:08 > 0:23:11because it marks the first arrival of British settlers in 1788
0:23:11 > 0:23:13and recalls past and present traumas of repression,
0:23:13 > 0:23:19loss, exclusion and inequality.
0:23:19 > 0:23:22Aboriginal people were only legally counted as being
0:23:22 > 0:23:27Australian as late as 1967.
0:23:27 > 0:23:30Some think the day should be abolished entirely.
0:23:30 > 0:23:34Others argue for a change in the date.
0:23:34 > 0:23:37The view of the current government is that by changing
0:23:37 > 0:23:39the date of Australia Day, you're just denying history,
0:23:39 > 0:23:43but the bigger question is, who decides whose history
0:23:43 > 0:23:48should be celebrated?
0:23:48 > 0:23:51I am joined now by Douglas Murray who has written about this issue
0:23:51 > 0:23:54in Australia in his latest book "The Strange Death of Europe"
0:23:54 > 0:23:57and from Melbourne by activist and actor Nakkiah Lui,
0:23:57 > 0:24:02a young leader within the Australian Aboriginal community.
0:24:02 > 0:24:09Good evening to you both. Douglas, is it not time to change Australia
0:24:09 > 0:24:14Day?A lot of Australians will wonder why and they will see it as
0:24:14 > 0:24:19an assault on the foundation of their nation and indeed it is. There
0:24:19 > 0:24:24are all sorts of arguments to be had about history. Nobody would or could
0:24:24 > 0:24:26deny the mistreatment and maltreatment of the aboriginal
0:24:26 > 0:24:33peoples. But the problem is, as so often, the question is whether you
0:24:33 > 0:24:38are dealing with critics or enemies. A lot of Australians will have heard
0:24:38 > 0:24:42of organised protests on their holiday talking not just about the
0:24:42 > 0:24:49invasion of Australia, but saying F Australia, I hope it burns to the
0:24:49 > 0:24:53ground. That is not the language of the critic of a country, that is
0:24:53 > 0:24:58somebody talking as an enemy.Is that not somebody who is perhaps in
0:24:58 > 0:25:08the end so frustrated as it were by the denial?But Australia has not
0:25:08 > 0:25:13got denial about this. Australia has had national sorry days, National
0:25:13 > 0:25:18signings of books to say sorry, all sorts of things. Australia has not
0:25:18 > 0:25:24ignored is passed.What do you say to that, Australia has not ignored
0:25:24 > 0:25:30its past?I think that Douglas is talking on false premises. A study
0:25:30 > 0:25:37recently found that the majority of Australians would not care what day
0:25:37 > 0:25:41it was on. If Australia Day is on the day that is dividing us, I think
0:25:41 > 0:25:46then we need to examine the values that we are celebrating. And you say
0:25:46 > 0:25:53there is no denial of the history of the past in Australia. Well, there
0:25:53 > 0:25:59is, and that is one of the things why we are protesting. We are having
0:25:59 > 0:26:04our national celebrations on a day, January the 26th, which represents
0:26:04 > 0:26:09the day Captain could put that union Jack in the ground in Australia and
0:26:09 > 0:26:14declared sovereign which began colonisation, which resulted in
0:26:14 > 0:26:19genocide. Over 500 massacres on the east coast of Australia alone. Up to
0:26:19 > 0:26:2550% of the aboriginal population wiped out and that continued into
0:26:25 > 0:26:289067 when my parents were not considered Australian citizens.
0:26:28 > 0:26:33There is denial when you have your national day on a day that
0:26:33 > 0:26:38represents such brutality.Is there not a situation where you can say,
0:26:38 > 0:26:43we live in a new, modern Australia, modern Australia made up of all
0:26:43 > 0:26:48sorts of peoples and we should create something new?Australia has
0:26:48 > 0:26:54been having this discussion for decades.But there is a new
0:26:54 > 0:26:58generation coming up.First of all what is striking is the tone of
0:26:58 > 0:27:01attack on Australia, the tone of burn this country to the ground.We
0:27:01 > 0:27:09could agree... That is incorrect. It is not about that, it is about
0:27:09 > 0:27:15changing the date.But you do not deny that was said?I want to come
0:27:15 > 0:27:22back to you. But, Douglas, by you highlighting that, that is a very
0:27:22 > 0:27:30political playing card to get your point across. This organisation and
0:27:30 > 0:27:38the organiser has said her comments were taken out of context.I want to
0:27:38 > 0:27:43ask you, Nakkiah, about this historical hurt. How deep does go
0:27:43 > 0:27:50for your generation?It continues on to this day and that is the issue.
0:27:50 > 0:27:53Colonisation has made aboriginal people are very vulnerable.Did you
0:27:53 > 0:27:59feel vulnerable growing up? Did it affect you on a daily basis?Our
0:27:59 > 0:28:03life expectancy is 20 years below that of a non-aboriginal Australian.
0:28:03 > 0:28:07Incarceration rates are much higher, the majority of aboriginal people
0:28:07 > 0:28:12live in poverty. Yes, it did affect me, I lived in a housing commission
0:28:12 > 0:28:20home. My grandparents were afraid of my parents being stolen and the
0:28:20 > 0:28:25children being taken away.That continued through three generations.
0:28:25 > 0:28:32Douglas, you are in favour of the first nation in a country having a
0:28:32 > 0:28:36special status. For example, in the UK we want to celebrate that here.
0:28:36 > 0:28:42If the nation is the first nation and the indigenous nation, surely it
0:28:42 > 0:28:47should have a special celebration? Surely, they do and it should
0:28:47 > 0:28:53happen. No, a primary one, they are the first people of that country.A
0:28:53 > 0:28:58very similar thing is happening in America and Canada. This movement is
0:28:58 > 0:29:03what Australia is part of as well. Movements as everywhere the
0:29:03 > 0:29:07Europeans went they have colonised and destroyed. We could have a
0:29:07 > 0:29:10sensible weighing up of the discussion without saying the
0:29:10 > 0:29:14Europeans are colonists and they have done genocide and they are
0:29:14 > 0:29:20still guilty.But they were colonists, that is a fact.The
0:29:20 > 0:29:24question keeps on coming back about historical guilt and the appropriate
0:29:24 > 0:29:29weighing up of history. We have not had that in the past in Australia.
0:29:29 > 0:29:32We do not get it with the bird Australia stuff down either.Thank
0:29:32 > 0:29:34you both very much.
0:29:34 > 0:29:36Thank you both very much.
0:29:36 > 0:29:38Finally, last night, in a report on the controversial
0:29:38 > 0:29:40Presidents Club Dinner, we said that the Labour
0:29:40 > 0:29:43peer Lord Mendelsohn, spelt Mend-e-l-s-o-h-n,
0:29:43 > 0:29:45had been asked to step back from the front bench,
0:29:45 > 0:29:48having attended the dinner.
0:29:48 > 0:29:51Unfortunately, the BBC's automatic subtitling system wrote
0:29:51 > 0:29:53the name as Lord Mandelson, the former Labour Cabinet minister.
0:29:53 > 0:30:01Peter Mandelson was not at the event and we apologise for the error.
0:30:01 > 0:30:03That's all for this evening.
0:30:03 > 0:30:06But before we go, German filmmaker Florian Nick spent six weeks
0:30:06 > 0:30:09travelling 3,400 miles in the western provinces of Canada,
0:30:09 > 0:30:11capturing over 54,000 photos to assemble a series
0:30:11 > 0:30:13of time-lapse images.
0:30:13 > 0:30:14We leave you with the stunning results.
0:30:14 > 0:30:21Good night.