0:00:26 > 0:00:27EDL founder Tommy Robinson's writings were found
0:00:27 > 0:00:30in Osborne's possession - we'll ask him if he bears any
0:00:30 > 0:00:34responsibility for the killing.
0:00:34 > 0:00:35And we'll ask if we are witnessing
0:00:35 > 0:00:40a resurgence of the far right
0:00:40 > 0:00:42Also tonight, religion in schools, Ofsted chief Amanda Spielman's
0:00:42 > 0:00:50comments have sparked an angry debate.
0:00:52 > 0:00:56She is playing divide and rule politics with different faiths.
0:00:56 > 0:00:58We'll talk to Ms Spielman and discuss whether extremism has
0:00:58 > 0:01:00spun out of control in some areas.
0:01:00 > 0:01:01Also tonight - darts, Formula One.
0:01:01 > 0:01:04Will the boxing ring girls be the next to go?
0:01:04 > 0:01:05We'll debate whether women should fight
0:01:05 > 0:01:13for their right to bare arms and legs and the rest.
0:01:14 > 0:01:15Good evening.
0:01:15 > 0:01:17Darren Osborne was convicted of murder and attempted murder today,
0:01:17 > 0:01:20after deliberately driving a van at a group of Muslim men
0:01:20 > 0:01:22near Finsbury Park mosque in London last June,
0:01:22 > 0:01:30killing father-of-six Makram Ali and injuring nine others.
0:01:33 > 0:01:36The CPS prosecuted the case as a terrorist offence
0:01:36 > 0:01:37because Osborne's actions were in order to advance
0:01:37 > 0:01:39a political purpose.
0:01:39 > 0:01:40Commander Dean Haydon, head of Scotland Yard's
0:01:40 > 0:01:42counter-terrorism operation, said the internet had played
0:01:42 > 0:01:44a significant role in in fuelling Osborne's "hate-filled agenda".
0:01:44 > 0:01:47The trial heard that far-right material online played a key part
0:01:47 > 0:01:49in his radicalisation and, in the lead-up to the June
0:01:49 > 0:01:51attack, Osborne had searched online for English Defence League founder
0:01:51 > 0:01:54Tommy Robinson, and Britain First's Jayda Fransen and Paul Golding.
0:01:54 > 0:01:57I'll be talking to Robinson in a moment or two, but first
0:01:57 > 0:02:05here is John Sweeney.
0:02:07 > 0:02:17The final murder of the summer had echoes of the other attacks. A
0:02:17 > 0:02:21killer radicalised online. A vehicle marooned on pedestrians. And,
0:02:21 > 0:02:27driving it all, hate. This attack was by a far right fanatic out to
0:02:27 > 0:02:39kill Muslims. -- vehicle knocked down pedestrians. Darren Osborne
0:02:39 > 0:02:45appears to have found hate after watching this, a BBC miniseries
0:02:45 > 0:02:51about systematic child abuse in Rochdale. He went on-line searching
0:02:51 > 0:02:55for far right website and followed, amongst others, Tommy Robinson,
0:02:55 > 0:02:59former leader of the English Defence League. In this pub, the night
0:02:59 > 0:03:07before the attack, he wrote a note condemning men hunt in packs preying
0:03:07 > 0:03:14on our children. The court heard evidence he had become brainwashed.
0:03:14 > 0:03:18Darren Osborne, over four weeks in the lead up to the attack, became,
0:03:18 > 0:03:21in my mind, radicalised. It started with him watching a TV documentary
0:03:21 > 0:03:27drama in relation to six abuse in Rochdale. That, we believe, was the
0:03:27 > 0:03:33catalyst for the start of his radicalisation. -- sex abuse in
0:03:33 > 0:03:39Rochdale.His plan was to kill the Labour Party leader at a
0:03:39 > 0:03:44demonstration. The QC questioned, were you hoping that you would have
0:03:44 > 0:03:50an opportunity to attack Jeremy Corbyn and kill him?
0:03:59 > 0:04:03He could not get close to the demonstration and drove around
0:04:03 > 0:04:08London until he found another target. This is the moment of
0:04:08 > 0:04:13impact, when he drove into a crowd near the Finsbury Park mosque.
0:04:13 > 0:04:17Darren Osborne has been convicted of murder and attempted murder. Nine
0:04:17 > 0:04:23people were injured in the attack. Seven months on it is worth noting
0:04:23 > 0:04:26one other commonality between the fanatics of so-called Islamic State
0:04:26 > 0:04:32and the far right, in their goal of turning Britain apart they have
0:04:32 > 0:04:36failed. -- caring Britain apart.
0:04:37 > 0:04:39As you heard there, police have commented on the speed
0:04:39 > 0:04:40at which Osborne was radicalised.
0:04:40 > 0:04:43The court heard he had been seeking out far-right material online
0:04:43 > 0:04:45in the weeks before he carried out his attack.
0:04:45 > 0:04:48Among the material he read and saved were tweets from the man
0:04:48 > 0:04:50known as Tommy Robinson - the former leader of
0:04:50 > 0:04:51the English Defence League.
0:04:51 > 0:04:53I spoke to Robinson earlier and I asked him
0:04:53 > 0:04:55if he accepted any responsibility for the radicalisation
0:04:55 > 0:05:01of Darren Osborne.
0:05:01 > 0:05:06No, of course I don't. I'm insulted you asking me that. What I cannot
0:05:06 > 0:05:09understand is the narrative in the media this week, every headline has
0:05:09 > 0:05:15a picture of me. I did not know this man, I don't know this man, I did
0:05:15 > 0:05:19not direct message him, which is a lie that has been put out on social
0:05:19 > 0:05:26media.Not the BBC.Yes, on the BBC. All of the media said I said Tim
0:05:26 > 0:05:35direct messages on Twitter. That is a lie. -- sent him direct messages.
0:05:35 > 0:05:39I work for a media company in Canada. The problem I have is that
0:05:39 > 0:05:44when we are talking about what has radicalised this man, we had 512
0:05:44 > 0:05:49people injured and children blown to pieces. 48 injured, nine murdered.
0:05:49 > 0:05:5349 injured and eight people murdered. We had all of this in a
0:05:53 > 0:05:56five-week barrier. You'd think what everybody is trying to do is to make
0:05:56 > 0:06:04it to the Mac that he was invited to a silent march.There is evidence he
0:06:04 > 0:06:10was looking you up a lot on the Internet. -- make it down to the
0:06:10 > 0:06:18fact he was. You tweeted, where was the day of rage after terrorist
0:06:18 > 0:06:21attacks, all I saw was lighted candles. Emerson bombed our kids, we
0:06:21 > 0:06:29were told not to look back in anger. -- a Muslim bombed.Will you put a
0:06:29 > 0:06:34screen shot of that? You have taken it out of context. After Grenfell
0:06:34 > 0:06:38Tower happened far left organisations had a day of rage
0:06:38 > 0:06:44planned. They had leaflets for it. You have that leaflet. But you have
0:06:44 > 0:06:48purposely left it out of it and you are making it sound like I said
0:06:48 > 0:06:55that. I was showing the hypocrisy in this country. Would you have done is
0:06:55 > 0:07:01misrepresent the truth of the tweet. On purpose.When a Muslim bombed our
0:07:01 > 0:07:05kids we were told not to look back in anger, what was the purpose of
0:07:05 > 0:07:09that? That was on the dashboard of Darren Osborne's van when he
0:07:09 > 0:07:15attacked.He wrote the reasons why he done this. Why aren't we talking
0:07:15 > 0:07:21about that? I'll tell you why.He obsessively look you up online. That
0:07:21 > 0:07:26is all I am saying.He wrote terrorists marched through our
0:07:26 > 0:07:29country today. There was a march. You are the BBC News. You didn't
0:07:29 > 0:07:37report on that March.Do you accept there is a lot of hate speech about
0:07:37 > 0:07:38Chris you didn't report
0:07:42 > 0:07:47Do you take any responsibility for that being hate speech?Do you think
0:07:47 > 0:07:53it is?I'm asking you.You have Muslims in this country calling for
0:07:53 > 0:07:57the death of homosexuals. That is hate speech. Me saying don't look
0:07:57 > 0:08:03back in anger is not hate speech. Why do you think that he obsessively
0:08:03 > 0:08:09looked for you online? It is the case that you were presenting in a
0:08:09 > 0:08:17way that encouraged him to take action against people.Absolutely
0:08:17 > 0:08:23unbelievable you are saying that. 49 million people watched that video.
0:08:23 > 0:08:26The reason why people were searching for me is because I give them the
0:08:26 > 0:08:32truth. Unlike you.
0:08:32 > 0:08:36truth. Unlike you.Fact is, after he attacked outside Finsbury Mosque. He
0:08:36 > 0:08:42wrote a letter. In that letter he quoted your tweet.No he didn't.It
0:08:42 > 0:08:47was heard in court.For your viewers, read what he said. He
0:08:47 > 0:08:52quoted Sadiq Khan. He is a part and parcel of living in a big city. He
0:08:52 > 0:09:00quoted Jeremy Corbyn.He quoted you in his letter.No, he didn't.We
0:09:00 > 0:09:05were told not to look back in anger. He said don't look back in anger.
0:09:05 > 0:09:09The front page of the sun newspaper, after the Manchester attack, was
0:09:09 > 0:09:15don't look back in anger. He quoted a national newspaper.Do you deny he
0:09:15 > 0:09:20quoted you in anyway?He didn't quote me. Why are you not looking at
0:09:20 > 0:09:23the reasons. Why are you not looking at the fact we have three massive
0:09:23 > 0:09:27terrorist attacks.That is not what this is about.This is the reason
0:09:27 > 0:09:36why he has done it.It is about the rise of far right mainstream.This
0:09:36 > 0:09:43is unbelievable.He was radicalised in four weeks.I'm embarrassed for
0:09:43 > 0:09:46the BBC. We have three terrorist attacks in quick succession. Rather
0:09:46 > 0:09:51than talking about those and why he reacted he told you why he reacted,
0:09:51 > 0:09:54you want to put it on the fact that I report the truth.Terrorist
0:09:54 > 0:09:59attacks are appalling.You do not think they are anything to do with
0:09:59 > 0:10:03the reason why he done this? You think it is because I said don't
0:10:03 > 0:10:09look back in anger?I'm asking, there are contributing factors, he
0:10:09 > 0:10:14was radicalised online.His wife said...The police said that he
0:10:14 > 0:10:19obsessively looked at your, looked for you online and quoted your
0:10:19 > 0:10:25tweets. That's a fact.His wife said he was radicalised after that BBC
0:10:25 > 0:10:31documentary. Why don't you sit the producer of that documentary down
0:10:31 > 0:10:39and ask if he feels responsible? You don't.Is what Darren Osborne did
0:10:39 > 0:10:42appalling and reprehensible?Of course, what sort of silly question
0:10:42 > 0:10:47is that? He has knocked down in the street. It also would the BBC is BBC
0:10:47 > 0:10:51is doing is disgusting and irresponsible as a media outlet.
0:10:51 > 0:10:52Thanks very much.
0:10:52 > 0:10:54Joining me now is Fiyaz Mughal, who founded Measuring
0:10:54 > 0:10:56Anti-Muslim Attacks - a group which monitors anti-muslim
0:10:56 > 0:10:59activity and supports those affected by it.
0:10:59 > 0:11:08Good evening. Do you think there is growing concern about aggression on
0:11:08 > 0:11:13the far right?Absolutely. Over the last five years my group has been
0:11:13 > 0:11:17clearly making the case that there has been an enormous amount of
0:11:17 > 0:11:22anti-Muslim hatred and anti-Muslim material being pumped out by groups
0:11:22 > 0:11:25and individuals, which has been on the online space and easy to find.
0:11:25 > 0:11:29Much of this rhetoric, the issue of calling Muslims generally
0:11:29 > 0:11:36paedophiles, people who prey on women, this generalisation, creates
0:11:36 > 0:11:40mindsets which sadly we have seen today to kill in our streets.When
0:11:40 > 0:11:46these are put up online. And clearly offensive. How quickly can you get
0:11:46 > 0:11:51them down?We cannot get them down. We've been having these discussions
0:11:51 > 0:11:57with social media outlets for six years. There is a lazy approach by
0:11:57 > 0:12:01these agencies to remove materials. They say free speech means counter
0:12:01 > 0:12:05speech will flood out the negative messages. They give this grandiose
0:12:05 > 0:12:11view which is unrealistic.There is... If you want to call it on both
0:12:11 > 0:12:15sides of this divide, and it's a horrible thing to say, but it isn't
0:12:15 > 0:12:20all one-way traffic.It isn't. Tommy Robinson is a result of anti-Muslim
0:12:20 > 0:12:24extremism. He promotes division in this country. He has the gall to sit
0:12:24 > 0:12:32here and says he has nothing to do with issues is a problem.Where do
0:12:32 > 0:12:37you see it? On the online space, posters, do you hear it on the
0:12:37 > 0:12:42streets? Where do you think it is most pervasive?In the online space.
0:12:42 > 0:12:47Less so on the streets. The EDL's back has been broken. That was
0:12:47 > 0:12:53evident in 2012 when they fractured and fragmented 2013. The online
0:12:53 > 0:12:57space is toxic. Social media companies are not providing
0:12:57 > 0:13:02resources for counter speech. And they are not listening. If they do
0:13:02 > 0:13:05not take off material that is causing fractures in our community
0:13:05 > 0:13:09then there needs to be some redress and measure to make them change
0:13:09 > 0:13:13their macro behaviour.Given that you say it has been six years since
0:13:13 > 0:13:18you have been trying to have some degree of responsibility with online
0:13:18 > 0:13:22providers. -- change their behaviour. What else can you do to
0:13:22 > 0:13:28alter the atmosphere?To alter it we need positive messaging. We need
0:13:28 > 0:13:32good role models. We need positive images of Muslims playing a positive
0:13:32 > 0:13:37role in our country consistently. We need fewer voices and less oxygen
0:13:37 > 0:13:42given to people like Robinson and his ilk who pour out of these
0:13:42 > 0:13:45messages and take no responsibility for the fractures and divisions they
0:13:45 > 0:13:50cause.Those fractions and deep -- fractures and deep divisions, you
0:13:50 > 0:13:54get them from all sectors of society. How do you count it from
0:13:54 > 0:13:58not just the far right, but the far left, and different religious
0:13:58 > 0:14:03extremists?Lots of work has been done on the Islamist side. We tackle
0:14:03 > 0:14:08this issue daily. What we are saying is that what people like Robinson
0:14:08 > 0:14:12and the fractures he creates.Thanks very much indeed.
0:14:12 > 0:14:14Theresa May met China's President Xi today on the latest
0:14:14 > 0:14:15stage of her trip.
0:14:15 > 0:14:18Certain corners of the UK were celebrating after the Prime Minister
0:14:18 > 0:14:21used the trip to secure the Scotch whisky trademark for another decade.
0:14:21 > 0:14:25But away from trade, it's been a week of politics
0:14:25 > 0:14:27dominated by Brexit.
0:14:27 > 0:14:29Today, battle lines were drawn between London and Brussels
0:14:29 > 0:14:32when Mrs May announced she would be tough on migrants entering Britain
0:14:32 > 0:14:33during the transition period.
0:14:33 > 0:14:35But, tonight, the battle was closer to home, as a row exploded
0:14:35 > 0:14:36with her government.
0:14:36 > 0:14:43Our political editor Nick Watt is here.
0:14:43 > 0:14:48Yet another round.Interestingly a story in the EFTA saying Theresa
0:14:48 > 0:14:53May's advisers are looking into whether the UK could work up a
0:14:53 > 0:14:57customs deal with the European Union that would cover goods -- financial
0:14:57 > 0:15:06Times. Downing Street saying this is not going on. I spoke to a Brexit
0:15:06 > 0:15:10Minister, Brexit leading minister who said if you do that it is not a
0:15:10 > 0:15:13coherent trade policy because you could not sign your own trade deals
0:15:13 > 0:15:19and this plays into the row about the customs union and the fear among
0:15:19 > 0:15:25Brexiteers that civil servants are skewing evidence and reports to walk
0:15:25 > 0:15:29ministers towards one conclusion which is we have to stay in the
0:15:29 > 0:15:34customs union. Brexit Minister Steve Baker appeared in the Commons to
0:15:34 > 0:15:41give some support to that view and around the time he was speaking, Sir
0:15:41 > 0:15:44Jeremy Heywood, the Cabinet Secretary, popped up on Twitter and
0:15:44 > 0:15:48looks like he was responding to something Steve Baker said when he
0:15:48 > 0:16:02said civil servants are always wrong. He said...
0:16:06 > 0:16:10Steve Baker apologised this evening for his comments in the House of
0:16:10 > 0:16:15Commons today and indicated he had sort of misquoted Charles Grant, the
0:16:15 > 0:16:20director of the Centre For European Reform who he said had given the
0:16:20 > 0:16:23impression civil servants were skewing things in the direction of
0:16:23 > 0:16:30the customs union.This is what we think is going on but what else is
0:16:30 > 0:16:37happening behind the scenes?There is real concern among Brexit
0:16:37 > 0:16:44backbenchers and leaning ministers that that leaked a BuzzFeed that
0:16:44 > 0:16:47says UK civil servants as every option in Brexit makes us poor, they
0:16:47 > 0:16:55have two fears, one Eurosceptic Tory said the civil service out of
0:16:55 > 0:16:58control and doing their own thing or has Theresa May given the authority
0:16:58 > 0:17:04to do this and not telling anyone, and this is what the Eurosceptic
0:17:04 > 0:17:08Tory said, if this is what the Prime Minister is doing, this is how you
0:17:08 > 0:17:13kick off a civil war in one easy step.Thanks.
0:17:13 > 0:17:15Today, Ofsted's Chief Inspector threw her full weight behind
0:17:15 > 0:17:19the head teacher of a predominantly Muslim state primary school
0:17:19 > 0:17:22in London who banned the hijab for girls under the age of eight -
0:17:22 > 0:17:25a move that resulted in the resignation of the chair
0:17:25 > 0:17:26of governors who had originally supported the ban.
0:17:26 > 0:17:29Today in a speech at a Church of England conference,
0:17:29 > 0:17:32Amanda Spielman said that schools had to pursue "muscular liberalism,"
0:17:32 > 0:17:35and that inspectors are increasingly brought
0:17:35 > 0:17:38into contact with those who want to actively pervert
0:17:38 > 0:17:39the purpose of education.
0:17:39 > 0:17:42Strong words - but strong words too from the Muslim Council
0:17:42 > 0:17:45of Great Britain who called the ban "appalling" and discriminatory.
0:17:45 > 0:17:51Here's our political editor Nick Watt.
0:17:51 > 0:17:56It is one of the great European debates. Just where should religion
0:17:56 > 0:18:04and fit in our public spaces? The secular state of France has a simple
0:18:04 > 0:18:08view. No religious symbols in any area associated with the state.
0:18:08 > 0:18:14Across the channel and on the other side of the spectrum Britain has
0:18:14 > 0:18:18traditionally allowed religion a place at the heart of its public
0:18:18 > 0:18:24sphere, generally on its terms. Close to one of England's grandest
0:18:24 > 0:18:28cathedral is the Chief Inspector of Schools declared neither view is
0:18:28 > 0:18:33right today. Amanda Spielman hailed the role of faith schools at a
0:18:33 > 0:18:39tolerant society but told her audience in London that those values
0:18:39 > 0:18:43of respect and tolerance cannot be used to place all belief beyond
0:18:43 > 0:18:50criticism.Ofsted inspectors are increasingly brought into contact
0:18:50 > 0:18:55with those who want to actively perverts the purpose of education
0:18:55 > 0:19:00under the pretext of religious belief they use education
0:19:00 > 0:19:07institutions to narrow young people'shorizons, and in the worst
0:19:07 > 0:19:19cases to indoctrinate impressionable minds with extremist ideology.
0:19:19 > 0:19:24She added... The chief Inspector's mornings were mainly aimed at
0:19:24 > 0:19:28Islamic extremists although she has concerns about intolerance in other
0:19:28 > 0:19:33faiths. In her mind she believes it is important to tackle extremist
0:19:33 > 0:19:38ideology as well as extremist violence. She has some sympathy for
0:19:38 > 0:19:43Michael Gove's phrase about the importance of draining the swamp and
0:19:43 > 0:19:48not just beating back the crocodiles that come close to the boat. The
0:19:48 > 0:19:52former Education Secretary was speaking in 2014 at the height of a
0:19:52 > 0:19:58dispute with the Home Office in the wake of the so-called Trojan horse
0:19:58 > 0:20:03row about extremism in Birmingham schools. Today Amanda Spielman
0:20:03 > 0:20:08praised a London headteacher who try to stop young girls from wearing the
0:20:08 > 0:20:13hijab and she spoke of reticence among some church schools to
0:20:13 > 0:20:17challenge fundamentalist practices, as she cited a Tower Hamlets school
0:20:17 > 0:20:24that lost its outstanding rating in 2014 after failing to respond
0:20:24 > 0:20:29adequately to warnings about extremism.It means by making sure
0:20:29 > 0:20:33being anxious to do the right thing we do not do the wrong thing. We
0:20:33 > 0:20:38have to make sure we have tolerance and respect for all faiths in
0:20:38 > 0:20:44schools but we can accidentally go so far we find ourselves bringing
0:20:44 > 0:20:49community tensions into schools.She is recklessly playing divide and
0:20:49 > 0:20:54rule politics with different faiths. There are big questions. Also, it is
0:20:54 > 0:21:02not just the divide and rule but the singling out and demonisation of
0:21:02 > 0:21:08Muslim communities that most of third sector organisations are
0:21:08 > 0:21:13uncomfortable with.Younger children of all faiths and none will be
0:21:13 > 0:21:16skipping, walking or dragging their feet to school in the morning.
0:21:16 > 0:21:21Little do they know they lie at the heart of a passionate debate about
0:21:21 > 0:21:22the values of their country.
0:21:22 > 0:21:28Amanda Speilman is with me now.
0:21:28 > 0:21:34Can I quote something from your speech today, you said Ofsted
0:21:34 > 0:21:39inspectors of increasingly brought into contact with those who actively
0:21:39 > 0:21:44perverts the purpose of education. What do you mean? There are schools
0:21:44 > 0:21:49in the state sector and independent schools, where we find
0:21:49 > 0:21:53unsatisfactory things being taught. I have talked before about the kinds
0:21:53 > 0:21:59of books, not just in libraries but being taught from, encouraging
0:21:59 > 0:22:04husbands to beat their wives. Those things are simply not compatible.
0:22:04 > 0:22:11They are presumably a minority of schools? Quite a small minority but
0:22:11 > 0:22:14we are also coming across evidence there are tensions in communities,
0:22:14 > 0:22:22often between different parts of the same
0:22:23 > 0:22:29same faith, for example, tensions between those Muslims who like very
0:22:29 > 0:22:33young girls to wear their hijab and those who do not and we see the
0:22:33 > 0:22:37tensions imported into schools so part of our responsibility is to
0:22:37 > 0:22:42make sure all children have the right educational experience.You
0:22:42 > 0:22:47make it clear we are not just talking about the Muslim faith but
0:22:47 > 0:22:52unfortunately, are there more issues there than for example in Anglican
0:22:52 > 0:23:01schools, civic schools?It is very hard, I do not have numbers but we
0:23:01 > 0:23:06see it in schools of all faiths. There are fantastic schools of every
0:23:06 > 0:23:10faith and no face and there are schools that cause concern in every
0:23:10 > 0:23:16quarter.We can turn to the primary school in new in east London. You
0:23:16 > 0:23:23talk about what is happening and the response to the hijab ban as a
0:23:23 > 0:23:29matter of regret and what you said in your speech today was this school
0:23:29 > 0:23:34introduced a ban on young girls under eight wearing the hijab and
0:23:34 > 0:23:37you strongly supported the headteacher in her freedom to do
0:23:37 > 0:23:44that.This is the kind of thing I was warning about last year, which
0:23:44 > 0:23:50got attention at the time. It was represented as being Islamophobic
0:23:50 > 0:23:55but it is not. This is concern about bringing adult pressures and
0:23:55 > 0:23:59disagreements to bear on young children in primary schools.I'm
0:23:59 > 0:24:04interested because this new primary School is outstanding academically
0:24:04 > 0:24:10and presuming it had an outstanding report before you brought inspectors
0:24:10 > 0:24:15in yesterday and has achieved a lot. If that is the case, why do you
0:24:15 > 0:24:19think you have to step in and say what this teacher is doing is
0:24:19 > 0:24:24correct if the school is thriving? We look not just at educational
0:24:24 > 0:24:27outcome, we have to look at the personal development and welfare of
0:24:27 > 0:24:33children and if we see things that suggest any kind of bullying, that
0:24:33 > 0:24:39is what inspectors look at. They talk to children and get a sense of
0:24:39 > 0:24:42whether the culture, pressures in the school are as they should be.I
0:24:42 > 0:24:48suppose you could say that if you have said in a major speech you back
0:24:48 > 0:24:55the teacher because wearing the hijab for
0:24:55 > 0:24:59hijab for under eightis wrong for the school, is this something you
0:24:59 > 0:25:05think you could say wearing the hijab after puberty is right. I
0:25:05 > 0:25:09think I support the idea that no child under eight should wear the
0:25:09 > 0:25:15hijab, or is it simply this school? The point is that the headteacher
0:25:15 > 0:25:21made a decision. On what basis? On the basis it is the responsibility
0:25:21 > 0:25:26of the head to set uniform policy. What was her reason for not allowing
0:25:26 > 0:25:34kids under eight to wear the hijab? That is before puberty and there is
0:25:34 > 0:25:41no religious requirement, it is a cultural preference.So that school
0:25:41 > 0:25:48is one thing, and another another thing. Taking a position on this,
0:25:48 > 0:25:53are you stepping into an area where actually you would rather was
0:25:53 > 0:25:57devolved to headteachers in the first place?This is our concern.
0:25:57 > 0:26:02When we see a school is being bullied. The school took the
0:26:02 > 0:26:07decision some months ago. The policy has been running for a while but
0:26:07 > 0:26:12when it attracted media attention great pressure was brought to bear,
0:26:12 > 0:26:16not in the immediate community.You put inspectors in yesterday. I
0:26:16 > 0:26:20wonder if the outcome could be anti-theft local to a lot of Muslims
0:26:20 > 0:26:29who would say we would rather we have this policy. You could conflate
0:26:29 > 0:26:34what could be seen as conservatism with extremism.On the contrary.
0:26:34 > 0:26:46There are different issues. It is so important that schools... Schools
0:26:46 > 0:26:49have a responsibility to promote cohesion in a diverse world. They
0:26:49 > 0:26:53can never give every parent exactly what they want but they have to take
0:26:53 > 0:26:57sensible decisions for the benefit of all children. I am concerned when
0:26:57 > 0:27:02I see the schools losing authority to take the right decisions.We have
0:27:02 > 0:27:08a new Education Secretary. I wonder if you would like to see that
0:27:08 > 0:27:11Education Secretary press ahead with a revived grammar School programme
0:27:11 > 0:27:15given it was in the Conservative manifesto.That is something that
0:27:15 > 0:27:19was in the manifesto. It is not something I have taken a position
0:27:19 > 0:27:25on. My job is to inspect schools.Do you think the addition of grammar
0:27:25 > 0:27:29schools would be valuable?That is not something I have expressed an
0:27:29 > 0:27:34opinion on before and I'm not going to now.We can discuss this further.
0:27:34 > 0:27:42I'm joined here in the studio by Gita Sahgal, founder
0:27:42 > 0:27:44of the center for Secular Space and Sajid Gulzar -
0:27:44 > 0:27:47chief executive and executive head of Prince Albert Community Trust,
0:27:47 > 0:27:49which currently runs three schools in Birmingham.
0:27:49 > 0:28:02Good evening. What message do you think Amanda Spielman is giving by
0:28:02 > 0:28:06backing new?I think any school needs to be free to set its own
0:28:06 > 0:28:13uniform policy. There is no requirement for Muslim girls of the
0:28:13 > 0:28:19age of eight and below to wear the hijab, but equally, I am not sure
0:28:19 > 0:28:23how the banning of the hijab fits in with the British value of mutual
0:28:23 > 0:28:29respect and tolerance for all faiths.In your school, would girls
0:28:29 > 0:28:35of any age be allowed to wear the hijab, would anyone who wants to
0:28:35 > 0:28:41wear something of a religious nature a cross or what ever, be allowed to
0:28:41 > 0:28:45wear ripped?Within reason. We have many Muslim girls who wear the hijab
0:28:45 > 0:28:54and many who do not. In my almost 20 years in education I have not come
0:28:54 > 0:28:57across any community tensions between those who do or do not. We
0:28:57 > 0:29:02have families where you might have sisters who send their children to
0:29:02 > 0:29:07the school, one wearing the hijab, one not. It has never been a
0:29:07 > 0:29:15problem. Do you think mutual tolerance,
0:29:15 > 0:29:20allowing people to wear what they wish and when, is a good thing for
0:29:20 > 0:29:27British society?I think we are confusing the issue of growing
0:29:27 > 0:29:31fundamentalism with tolerance. Amanda Spielman, when she gave the
0:29:31 > 0:29:35speech in front of the Church of England audience in considered
0:29:35 > 0:29:40words, did suggest faith schools are not talking to each other
0:29:40 > 0:29:45necessarily, the church is not sufficiently challenging
0:29:45 > 0:29:49fundamentalists in their midst and that the church is hindering the
0:29:49 > 0:29:53registration of the inspection of unregistered schools. So this
0:29:53 > 0:29:58problem is wider than that of Muslims. When we look at the issue
0:29:58 > 0:30:03of tolerance, we cannot narrow it to the issue of the hijab. I think the
0:30:03 > 0:30:08promotion of the hijab, and this has not just happened because of
0:30:08 > 0:30:12individual choices, there has been a policy led by the Muslim Council of
0:30:12 > 0:30:17Britain to promote the hijab in mainstream schools. Many schools
0:30:17 > 0:30:22have adopted it as a policy when it has been completely unrecognised in
0:30:22 > 0:30:28traditional Muslim culture.
0:30:28 > 0:30:30traditional Muslim culture.Are you talking about freedom to choose?
0:30:30 > 0:30:37There is a freedom to choose, and often within families girls dress
0:30:37 > 0:30:41differently.There may be a difference in families. What we are
0:30:41 > 0:30:46seeing in the promotion of very young children, not only wearing the
0:30:46 > 0:30:52hijab, but the promotion of fasting. St school under fire, the school in
0:30:52 > 0:31:01Newham, they had not banned fasting. Children were fainting in school,
0:31:01 > 0:31:06sometimes staff were, that is a health and safety issue.We don't
0:31:06 > 0:31:12have any proof for that. -- the school under fire, the school in
0:31:12 > 0:31:19Newham.I don't think he was lying when he made that claim.Are there
0:31:19 > 0:31:23certain things within your school that you say are not acceptable?
0:31:23 > 0:31:28Would fasting be acceptable? Are there other things that you say,
0:31:28 > 0:31:32this is the curriculum, this is the way I run my school, this is what I
0:31:32 > 0:31:37do?The point is one of dialogue and working with the community you
0:31:37 > 0:31:44serve, regardless of what faith background, or cultural persuasion
0:31:44 > 0:31:49that community is. We take a stance on fasting. We strongly discourage
0:31:49 > 0:31:54children to fast, particularly if it is very long, which it has been in
0:31:54 > 0:32:03recent years. We have asked the imams to come in and discuss it with
0:32:03 > 0:32:08the parents. When there is discussion it is OK. The discussion
0:32:08 > 0:32:12of the hijab, that is certainly outside my experience of being a
0:32:12 > 0:32:16head teacher responsible for several schools in Birmingham. It is not
0:32:16 > 0:32:20something I have come across in Birmingham. I do not know of any
0:32:20 > 0:32:33promotion of the hijab in that respect at all.The
0:32:33 > 0:32:37respect at all.The trust, the one that was responsible for the mixed
0:32:37 > 0:32:51sex school, it was a body that actually wrote regulations for it.
0:32:51 > 0:33:00It is only fair to put it to you. What you say about that?That's
0:33:00 > 0:33:06right. I didn't catch your name. You absolutely use your role as they
0:33:06 > 0:33:10head to decide what is and isn't acceptable. And to set boundaries.
0:33:10 > 0:33:18You discourage fasting. That's your responsibility as they head to make
0:33:18 > 0:33:23those decisions.Are the decisions of head teachers being eroded?That
0:33:23 > 0:33:28is what we saw at Saint Stephens. A policy which had been put in place
0:33:28 > 0:33:33for some months. Not liked by all parents but accepted. Outside groups
0:33:33 > 0:33:36came in and put pressure on the school to reverse the policy. They
0:33:36 > 0:33:43were not part of the school community.Will you be on their
0:33:43 > 0:33:48macro case? Are you going to follow this through to get a good
0:33:48 > 0:33:52atmosphere in the school? -- will you be on their case?All we can do
0:33:52 > 0:33:58is report on what we find. That is why we visited the school, so that
0:33:58 > 0:34:00we can report.Thanks very much indeed.
0:34:00 > 0:34:03Should young women be employed in the service of a sport
0:34:03 > 0:34:05to promote and enhance the atmosphere around
0:34:05 > 0:34:06certain sportsmen?
0:34:06 > 0:34:09Until recently the answer was yes - for Formula One and darts amongst
0:34:09 > 0:34:12others.
0:34:12 > 0:34:15But the mood has changed in light of the me too campaign
0:34:15 > 0:34:16and the Presidents Club.
0:34:16 > 0:34:20Such is the furore around yesterday's announcement that F1's
0:34:20 > 0:34:23"grid girls" will go, and this debate has gained currency
0:34:23 > 0:34:25in a whole host of sports and encompasses everything
0:34:25 > 0:34:27from banner waving to counting out the rounds
0:34:27 > 0:34:29in boxing, to cheerleading.
0:34:29 > 0:34:30So what next?
0:34:30 > 0:34:32I'm joined in the studio by former Formula 1
0:34:32 > 0:34:33journalist Beverley Turner.
0:34:33 > 0:34:36And in Glasgow by Victoria Obahor, who works in the boxing
0:34:36 > 0:34:39world as a "ring girl" and is worried her job might
0:34:39 > 0:34:43be under threat.
0:34:43 > 0:34:52Good evening. Victoria, do you think boxing is about to ban ring girls?I
0:34:52 > 0:34:59hope not. The opinions of people saying it should be banned is
0:34:59 > 0:35:08diabolical. It is absurd.What do you do as a ring girl?I scored the
0:35:08 > 0:35:14boxes into the ring. I tell the audience what the next round is...
0:35:14 > 0:35:21It is fun, it is part of the show, exciting, glamorous. -- I escort the
0:35:21 > 0:35:27boxs into the ring.Do you think it is part of the entertainment?Yes.
0:35:27 > 0:35:33This is somebody earning a living, doing what she wants to do. Why do
0:35:33 > 0:35:38you have such a problem with that? It is not that I necessarily have a
0:35:38 > 0:35:42problem with it. We must remember that the girls in Formula 1 have not
0:35:42 > 0:35:46been banned. The Formula 1 organisation has decided that that
0:35:46 > 0:35:55image of women as the
0:35:55 > 0:35:56image of women as the totty no longer represents the brand. And
0:35:56 > 0:36:03quite right. Long gone are the days of the women being the icing. It
0:36:03 > 0:36:07sends a powerful message to the next generation.But these are women who
0:36:07 > 0:36:11are earning a living, doing what they enjoy coming you might say the
0:36:11 > 0:36:16same of any other entertainer.It is an entertainment business. And in
0:36:16 > 0:36:19entertainment no job is secure. This isn't about feminism, taking these
0:36:19 > 0:36:26women's jobs away from them.It is! To some extent but it is about the
0:36:26 > 0:36:34owners of Formula 1 who are conspicuous by their macro -- by
0:36:34 > 0:36:38their absence in this debate.Bernie Ecclestone said it was a ridiculous
0:36:38 > 0:36:44thing. That might be a generational thing. The conversation started with
0:36:44 > 0:36:48Formula 1. What do you think of the idea that there will be no more
0:36:48 > 0:36:58great girls?I think it is a shame. -- no more grid girls. I think it is
0:36:58 > 0:37:02political correctness gone mad.Have you ever had inappropriate behaviour
0:37:02 > 0:37:06towards you or any of the other women who work with you?None
0:37:06 > 0:37:13whatsoever. It is fun. Everybody is there for a good show that the
0:37:13 > 0:37:17boxers put on and ourselves walking in the ring. We are not doing any
0:37:17 > 0:37:21harm to anybody. People have their opinions, but it's me, it's my
0:37:21 > 0:37:30income, and I love doing it and I want to keep doing it.Do you get
0:37:30 > 0:37:35power from doing it?Feminists say that it is degrading. It isn't. I
0:37:35 > 0:37:41have worked hard for the way I look, my body, and if I want to express
0:37:41 > 0:37:46myself in that way then fair enough. She's right, isn't she?I don't
0:37:46 > 0:37:52think so. I'm not saying that she couldn't do any other job. I'm quite
0:37:52 > 0:37:55surprised by the outpouring of sympathy from a lot of middle-aged
0:37:55 > 0:37:59men who have clearly been worried about the long-term career prospects
0:37:59 > 0:38:04of these girls. Strangely they are not interested in the long term
0:38:04 > 0:38:13career prospects of female drivers, of which there are none.But there
0:38:13 > 0:38:18are female boxers. You are saying women shouldn't be there for the
0:38:18 > 0:38:22entertainment purposes of essentially a male sport. NFL is
0:38:22 > 0:38:27about to kick off. All of the adverts have the cheerleaders.
0:38:27 > 0:38:32Cheerleaders are completely different.Why?Beer athletic,
0:38:32 > 0:38:40gymnasts. You and I couldn't do what they do. You and I could hold a
0:38:40 > 0:38:45number up in a boxing ring. -- they are athletic.What you think about
0:38:45 > 0:38:52that?That's ridiculous. We are all doing a job. Whether we are athletic
0:38:52 > 0:38:57or not. I'm doing a job as well as them. I do not get your views on
0:38:57 > 0:39:05that at all.Do you think male attitudes are changing? Men are now
0:39:05 > 0:39:09saying for themselves, actually, this is not to do with the sport any
0:39:09 > 0:39:17more, maybe they have daughters, sisters...It is totally that. We
0:39:17 > 0:39:21have so many images of women in the palms of our hand. You no longer
0:39:21 > 0:39:25have to go to a Formula 1 race to get a glimpse of a woman on the
0:39:25 > 0:39:34tarmac. Those days are gone.I'm asking... Women are patronising
0:39:34 > 0:39:38other women about the decisions and choices they make.It's not about
0:39:38 > 0:39:42patronising other women. I want my daughters and my son to grow up with
0:39:42 > 0:39:46a very good view of what it is to be a woman. I don't want them to grow
0:39:46 > 0:39:50up thinking we only judge women by what they look like. In Formula 1
0:39:50 > 0:39:57and boxing, the women...What do you think?That's my prerogative. You
0:39:57 > 0:40:00don't want your children, for instance your daughter, to do that
0:40:00 > 0:40:05then that is up to you. But my mother is proud of me when I go up
0:40:05 > 0:40:13there.Thank you both very much. On the front pages, Theresa May and the
0:40:13 > 0:40:19Chinese president.
0:40:19 > 0:40:25Cut pay-outs for blunders or the NHS will go bust on the front of the
0:40:25 > 0:40:29Daily Telegraph. And ministers watering down EU migrant plan in the
0:40:29 > 0:40:33Telegraph. In the Guardian, Labour plan to force cheap sale of land to
0:40:33 > 0:40:43the state. And a review of far right attack after the verdict. That is
0:40:43 > 0:40:48all. Goodbye.