0:00:10 > 0:00:14The legitimacy and legality of the FBI's investigation into Donald
0:00:14 > 0:00:18Trump is called into question by Republicans who accuse the
0:00:18 > 0:00:23intelligence agency of bias.Think it is a disgrace, what is happening
0:00:23 > 0:00:27in our country, when you look at that and you see that, so many other
0:00:27 > 0:00:30things that is going on, a lot of people should be ashamed of
0:00:30 > 0:00:41themselves, and much worse than that.He claims members of the FBI
0:00:41 > 0:00:45are against him. We live in Washington, DC with a man who lives
0:00:45 > 0:00:57and breathes the White House.
0:01:04 > 0:01:10And how do you remember the 2017 election? Newsnight has been granted
0:01:10 > 0:01:15a sneak peek of the work of official election artist Cordelia Parker.
0:01:15 > 0:01:19Shall we do something here that doesn't happen very often? Shake
0:01:19 > 0:01:24hands. Great seeing you again.
0:01:41 > 0:01:42Good evening.
0:01:42 > 0:01:44Is the FBI's investigation into Donald Trump
0:01:44 > 0:01:46compromised by it's reliance on the work of British Spy
0:01:46 > 0:01:47desperate to bring him down?
0:01:47 > 0:01:48Trump believes it is.
0:01:48 > 0:01:51Tonight, the US President called for the release of a top secret
0:01:51 > 0:01:53memorandum which accused the FBI of abusing its powers.
0:01:53 > 0:01:55The document, written by senior republicans supportive of trump,
0:01:55 > 0:01:58criticises the way the FBI and US Justice Department used
0:01:58 > 0:02:00Christopher Steele's claims to approve a wiretap
0:02:00 > 0:02:01on a Trump campaign adviser.
0:02:01 > 0:02:03Steele was, you remember, partly funded by the Democrats.
0:02:03 > 0:02:05Trump, as you can imagine, was not amused.
0:02:05 > 0:02:06The memo was sent to Congress.
0:02:06 > 0:02:07It was declassified.
0:02:07 > 0:02:09Congress will do whatever they're going to do.
0:02:09 > 0:02:17But I think it is a disgrace what is happening in our country.
0:02:21 > 0:02:24Why does this matter?
0:02:24 > 0:02:26These questions about memos on dossiers on intelligence
0:02:26 > 0:02:28from spies can get pretty messy pretty quickly.
0:02:28 > 0:02:29So what is the bigger picture here?
0:02:29 > 0:02:31Nyall Stanage, associate editor at The Hill joins me
0:02:31 > 0:02:32now from Washington DC.
0:02:32 > 0:02:37Niall put this in context for us - how big is this?
0:02:37 > 0:02:48This is a huge story here. This is probably the biggest we've seen
0:02:48 > 0:02:52since James Comey was fired by Donald Trump. He was the FBI
0:02:52 > 0:02:54director last year. This is something that puts the White House
0:02:54 > 0:03:01and the FBI in a state of virtual war with one another and raises lots
0:03:01 > 0:03:07of questions about the independence of the law enforcement system.When
0:03:07 > 0:03:16you talk about a state of virtual war, where does that put the Mueller
0:03:16 > 0:03:20investigation?Fascinating that this has happened at a time when he has
0:03:20 > 0:03:27been talking about interviewing Trump. We will see if they use that
0:03:27 > 0:03:32to avoid the interview. But I think this raises questions, at least in
0:03:32 > 0:03:38the minds of the sceptics, which is already what Mueller is looking
0:03:38 > 0:03:41into. So that doesn't really help the president in the broader
0:03:41 > 0:03:45picture.Did the Democrats get something fundamentally wrong? Are
0:03:45 > 0:03:50they recognising that fairly serious errors were made that have played
0:03:50 > 0:03:56right into Trump's understanding of that narrative?It's debatable.
0:03:56 > 0:04:01Errors have been seized upon by Republicans and people in the media
0:04:01 > 0:04:05who are friendly to Trump. Democrats are pushing back very hard at this
0:04:05 > 0:04:09memo. They want to release their room counter memo rebutting these
0:04:09 > 0:04:15points. They say the Republican version doesn't tell the full story.
0:04:15 > 0:04:19-- release their own counter memo. There is this idea that there are
0:04:19 > 0:04:24many Trump friendly hands all pumping at a Bellows to try to
0:04:24 > 0:04:30create or cast doubt on Mueller. That is a point of the Democrats are
0:04:30 > 0:04:35making.What Republicans around Trump thinking or saying to you
0:04:35 > 0:04:40tonight?Some of them, of course, are very impressed by what they have
0:04:40 > 0:04:46put out. Others are less so. Even a Republican source I was talking to
0:04:46 > 0:04:52was speaking fearfully about the idea the president would use this as
0:04:52 > 0:04:59a blunt force instrument to go right at Mueller. If that happened we
0:04:59 > 0:05:02would be in the territory of constitutional crisis.Thanks very
0:05:02 > 0:05:04much.
0:05:04 > 0:05:05Tonight, Newsnight can reveal the true extent
0:05:05 > 0:05:08of what appears to amount to war crimes in Syria.
0:05:08 > 0:05:10This programme has seen the most compelling evidence yet that Assad's
0:05:10 > 0:05:12forces are repeatedly targeting hospitals, medical
0:05:12 > 0:05:13centres, and ambulances.
0:05:13 > 0:05:16As many as 500 strikes have now been verified in rebel strong
0:05:16 > 0:05:24holds like eastern Aleppo, eastern Ghuta and Idlib.
0:05:26 > 0:05:29The footage and witness accounts that we are about to bring you paint
0:05:29 > 0:05:32a picture of a country that has surrendered to Assad
0:05:32 > 0:05:33in all but name.
0:05:33 > 0:05:35And show an administration led by a man consistently prepared
0:05:35 > 0:05:37to direct violence at some of the most vulnerable
0:05:37 > 0:05:38citizens in his country.
0:05:38 > 0:05:46Viewers may find scenes in Mike Thompson's report distressing.
0:05:46 > 0:05:49People come to hospitals for healing.
0:05:49 > 0:05:57But in rebel-held areas of Syria, they have now become places to die.
0:06:01 > 0:06:03On Monday, the Oday Hospital in Saraqeb, southern Idlib,
0:06:03 > 0:06:07was bombed for the fourth time.
0:06:07 > 0:06:11On Tuesday, a bomb hit its medical warehouse, too.
0:06:11 > 0:06:13Five people are reported to have died and all medical services
0:06:13 > 0:06:21have now been abandoned.
0:06:21 > 0:06:23Bereft of anywhere to treat them, Saraqeb's injured now have to be
0:06:23 > 0:06:30taken many miles north to the city of Idlib for treatment.
0:06:30 > 0:06:32But when they get to the central hospital, doctors there struggle
0:06:32 > 0:06:35to deal with the growing number of new arrivals, many of whom have
0:06:35 > 0:06:43injuries they are unable to treat, and patients moved on yet again.
0:06:43 > 0:06:47TRANSLATION:Since we cannot cope with most of the injuries
0:06:47 > 0:06:51that we have admitted to the hospital, we do
0:06:51 > 0:06:58indeed transfer them to the northern medical point.
0:06:58 > 0:07:01And what makes things a lot worse is that the fighters actually target
0:07:01 > 0:07:08ambulances and any cars suspected as belonging to the civil defence.
0:07:08 > 0:07:11TRANSLATION:It is barbaric.
0:07:11 > 0:07:13The medical crews should not be attacked.
0:07:13 > 0:07:15We get bombed and shot at, even after we collect
0:07:15 > 0:07:16the injured of the roads.
0:07:16 > 0:07:23We get hit with rockets and machine gun fire.
0:07:23 > 0:07:26The destruction of hospitals hasn't just been happening in Idlib,
0:07:26 > 0:07:27but right across Syria.
0:07:27 > 0:07:29The New York-based campaign organisation Physicians For Human
0:07:29 > 0:07:31Rights claims there are 492 verified attacks on hospitals,
0:07:31 > 0:07:39mostly by Syrian government forces, since the war began.
0:07:43 > 0:07:46But the group claims that what amounts to a war
0:07:46 > 0:07:49on health is not confined to the bombing of hospitals.
0:07:49 > 0:07:51Physicians For Human Rights has also documented the blocking
0:07:51 > 0:07:53of humanitarian aid, including deliberate
0:07:53 > 0:07:57stripping of medical supplies from humanitarian convoys.
0:07:57 > 0:08:00Just today, the UN came out asking the Russians, the Iranis,
0:08:00 > 0:08:02the Turkish authorities, to push the Syrian government
0:08:02 > 0:08:04to allow for humanitarian aid. Apparently, the Syrian government
0:08:04 > 0:08:12has not authorised aid for the past two months.
0:08:16 > 0:08:19The Syrian government has denied that it deliberately attacks
0:08:19 > 0:08:24hospitals or other civilian targets.
0:08:24 > 0:08:27But Physicians For Human Rights say they have documented 11 attacks
0:08:27 > 0:08:29on this one hospital alone in eastern Aleppo last year.
0:08:29 > 0:08:37Could a mistake be made that many times?
0:08:38 > 0:08:43At this point I think it is on them to prove it is not deliberate.
0:08:43 > 0:08:46As we have documented attacks on health care facilities that
0:08:46 > 0:08:48are in remote areas, where they really could not have
0:08:48 > 0:08:50wanted to hit anything else.
0:08:50 > 0:08:52As we have documented double attacks where the same facilities
0:08:52 > 0:08:54are being hit as first responders are there, as ambulances
0:08:54 > 0:08:58are leaving with patients.
0:08:58 > 0:09:01As we are documenting attacks on hospitals that have been built
0:09:01 > 0:09:05into caves in order to protect them, I think there is a lot of
0:09:05 > 0:09:13circumstantial evidence to suggest these are indeed targeted attacks.
0:09:14 > 0:09:16International lawyer Geoffrey Nice lead the entire prosecution case
0:09:16 > 0:09:22against Slobodan Milosevic.
0:09:22 > 0:09:24He insists nearly all governments know the coordinates
0:09:24 > 0:09:28of their hospitals, which would in any case
0:09:28 > 0:09:31have their roofs clearly marked.
0:09:31 > 0:09:35This, combined with increasingly sophisticated arms, makes repeated
0:09:35 > 0:09:37mistakes very improbable.
0:09:37 > 0:09:44With modern weaponry, accurate strike is possible.
0:09:44 > 0:09:45And inaccurate, accidental non-strike may happen,
0:09:45 > 0:09:48I suppose, from time to time, but not 11 times.
0:09:48 > 0:09:56In 11 times looks, does it not, like part of an intentional plan.
0:09:58 > 0:10:02But Geoffrey Nice doubts that we are likely to see war crimes
0:10:02 > 0:10:05trials any time soon, or other actions against Syria,
0:10:05 > 0:10:11thanks partly to Russia's much-used UN Security Council veto.
0:10:11 > 0:10:19TRANSLATION:The world simply watches.
0:10:20 > 0:10:22Nobody responds, not one has helped us till now,
0:10:22 > 0:10:23or stopped the bombardment.
0:10:23 > 0:10:24The situation is quite desperate.
0:10:24 > 0:10:31We need someone to hear our voice and to see what is happening here.
0:10:31 > 0:10:34We have come a long way, it seems, since the heady,
0:10:34 > 0:10:36euphoric days of the Arab Spring seven years ago, though
0:10:36 > 0:10:42not in the direction hoped for back then.
0:10:42 > 0:10:45Civil war in Syria has evolved into a regional sectarian conflict
0:10:45 > 0:10:47and has now been spreading even wider, so making a solution
0:10:47 > 0:10:55ever more complicated and difficult to find.
0:10:59 > 0:11:01I'm now joined from Princeton by Ryan Crocker, the former US
0:11:01 > 0:11:02ambassador to Syria.
0:11:02 > 0:11:06And with me in the studio is Ruth Citrin, Director of the Middle East
0:11:06 > 0:11:08and North Africa Programme at the European Council
0:11:08 > 0:11:10of Foreign Relations.
0:11:10 > 0:11:18for Syria and Lebanon at the National Security Council.
0:11:18 > 0:11:26It is great to have you guys here. Do you accept that President Assad
0:11:26 > 0:11:34has been all but named won this war? Let me start with some truth and
0:11:34 > 0:11:41advertising. I was 15 years, more than 15 years with the US
0:11:41 > 0:11:50Department. 15 years in the White House would have me crossing
0:11:50 > 0:11:54multiple administrations. I am a long-time civil servant. The point
0:11:54 > 0:12:00about Russia and the strikes that we currently see is, in essence, that
0:12:00 > 0:12:05you have multiple complex still ongoing inside Syria. Those strikes
0:12:05 > 0:12:11against hospitals are really the regime going after what it terms
0:12:11 > 0:12:14terrorists in areas that were essentially in de-escalation zones
0:12:14 > 0:12:21agreed upon by the Russians, Turks, and Iranians, with Russian help. It
0:12:21 > 0:12:24increases the territory under President Assad's control. This has
0:12:24 > 0:12:30been going on since the early days of the de-escalation agreements. The
0:12:30 > 0:12:35regime is expanding. The amount of territory that it holds with
0:12:35 > 0:12:40Russia's help. Eventually it will hit the borders where you have
0:12:40 > 0:12:44coalition supported Kurdish forces. This would not have been possible
0:12:44 > 0:12:49without the backing of Putin?It wouldn't. It would not have been
0:12:49 > 0:12:56possible without a rainy and help. All the help of his
0:12:56 > 0:13:03-- it would not have been possible without
0:13:06 > 0:13:13without Iranian help.We are nowhere near the end of a war. I spent sexy
0:13:13 > 0:13:18vixen that the none. Different tours during the Civil War. That went for
0:13:18 > 0:13:3015 years. And it is far more complex. -- I
0:13:31 > 0:13:38complex. -- I spent six years in Lebanon on.
0:13:38 > 0:13:47After strike after strike on civilians in Aleppo, John Kerry was
0:13:47 > 0:13:52to call his Russian counterpart or go and visit Moscow. Frankly I think
0:13:52 > 0:13:59we went from
0:13:59 > 0:14:01we went from appeasement to complicity in those crimes.Is it
0:14:01 > 0:14:07now too late for Trump to push back against Putin? Do you think his
0:14:07 > 0:14:15military action last April was the right course?The action in April...
0:14:15 > 0:14:21It was a token. A one-off. It changed absolutely nothing. The
0:14:21 > 0:14:28president had an opportunity to take a much tougher position on Russia.
0:14:28 > 0:14:31But as he has done since the beginning of his presidency, he
0:14:31 > 0:14:38elected not to do that. So we have interesting consistency and policy
0:14:38 > 0:14:41from Barack Obama to Trump. Unfortunately it is in all of the
0:14:41 > 0:14:47wrong directions. With the current administration it is president to
0:14:47 > 0:14:53president.
0:14:53 > 0:15:01We always risk overstating what the US is capable of doing in Syria and
0:15:01 > 0:15:06right now the United States has a couple of thousand troops in the
0:15:06 > 0:15:11areas that are held by Syrian Kurdish forces that they have been
0:15:11 > 0:15:16working with against Isis.How can it be right we overstate America's
0:15:16 > 0:15:24potential in Syria but not President Putin's?Given all the
0:15:24 > 0:15:27considerations, made the decision it was not in US interest to assert
0:15:27 > 0:15:31that kind of military power to try to change the balance of power on
0:15:31 > 0:15:36the ground. President Putin determined it was in Russian
0:15:36 > 0:15:42interests to do so. And would wave in front of the international
0:15:42 > 0:15:45community that the legitimate government of Syria invited him in.
0:15:45 > 0:15:50I know you dispute the idea we are near the end but would you agree
0:15:50 > 0:15:55nobody stands a chance of winning it, if that is a word, except for
0:15:55 > 0:16:05Assad now?You have to define winning. How will he rule over how
0:16:05 > 0:16:13much will he will rule with what assets? Wars like this, and I have
0:16:13 > 0:16:23seen too much of it, are not predictable. Does he win if various
0:16:23 > 0:16:27militia from the Islamists to the Kurdish are holding most of the
0:16:27 > 0:16:34territory of a country? Does anybody win?My expectation is it will just
0:16:34 > 0:16:39go on. You think devolution is possible and there could be
0:16:39 > 0:16:43different regions autonomously controlled?Ryan's point about the
0:16:43 > 0:16:51limits to what the Syrian regime and forces can do is important. Assad is
0:16:51 > 0:16:56not capable of really taking the entire country, especially not with
0:16:56 > 0:17:02the Syrian Kurdish forces backed by the coalition holding the ground
0:17:02 > 0:17:08east of the Euphrates. Certainly also not in the south. Where Israel
0:17:08 > 0:17:13has a stake in preventing the regime from extending control to the
0:17:13 > 0:17:19border. Probably in agreement with Russia.
0:17:19 > 0:17:23Russia. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and he will talk about
0:17:23 > 0:17:27Israeli red lines with respect to infiltration along the border and I
0:17:27 > 0:17:32suspect President Assad's aim is to attenuate the conflict and work with
0:17:32 > 0:17:38allies to gain as much ground as possible, but even to rest and refit
0:17:38 > 0:17:42and move forces elsewhere under de-escalation but there are
0:17:42 > 0:17:46boundaries. He will reach the limits, and there is where we come
0:17:46 > 0:17:54to the question of what next? The what's next should in theory be
0:17:54 > 0:17:59devolution of authority in ways that allow these small pockets...To
0:17:59 > 0:18:06administer themselves. Ambassador, I would like to ask about the Trump
0:18:06 > 0:18:14memo release this evening. The last guest called it the biggest crisis
0:18:14 > 0:18:20since Comey was five. Is there a constitutional crisis between the
0:18:20 > 0:18:26FBI and the president in terms of faith?
0:18:28 > 0:18:31faith?I have no idea what the specific points are. I am not a
0:18:31 > 0:18:38lawyer. The crisis I see and it is a dangerous one, is the crisis of
0:18:38 > 0:18:44extreme partisan ship. To release a memo drafted by Republican staff and
0:18:44 > 0:18:49sent only to Republican members on such key issues, I think is a loud
0:18:49 > 0:18:56warning bell. If we do not climb off this ledge of partisanship I think
0:18:56 > 0:18:58bad things will happen.Thank you.
0:18:58 > 0:19:02Now the moment on Newsnight when we turn up the dial and hear
0:19:02 > 0:19:03an impassioned argument.
0:19:03 > 0:19:04Tonight, it's the turn of mental health campaigner,
0:19:04 > 0:19:12author and actor, Ruby Wax.
0:21:22 > 0:21:23Ruby wax.
0:21:23 > 0:21:26There's new evidence that the testing regime that
0:21:26 > 0:21:29keeps our buildings safe from fire is fundamentally flawed.
0:21:29 > 0:21:33The company that makes Celotex, the insulation used in Grenfell
0:21:33 > 0:21:36tower, has retracted the result of the test it relied
0:21:36 > 0:21:39upon to sell the product for use on tall buildings.
0:21:39 > 0:21:43The retraction is because a major error was made in the safety tests -
0:21:43 > 0:21:47they added an additional layer of fire-resistant material
0:21:47 > 0:21:49onto the test design without telling test scientists.
0:21:49 > 0:21:51The admission is the latest in a series of
0:21:51 > 0:21:53clarifications by the firm,
0:21:53 > 0:21:57and it raises serious questions about how fire testing
0:21:57 > 0:22:00in this country works, and how confident the public can be
0:22:00 > 0:22:01that the necessary standards are being met.
0:22:01 > 0:22:03Chris Cook has our report.
0:22:03 > 0:22:06This week, there was a curious new development in what we know
0:22:06 > 0:22:10about how dangerous cladding came to be on towers across the country,
0:22:10 > 0:22:12including Grenfell Tower, where the cladding had such
0:22:12 > 0:22:17a terrible cost.
0:22:17 > 0:22:20A lot of attention has been paid to the cladding's outer layer.
0:22:20 > 0:22:24Aluminium panels which had a combustible plastic core.
0:22:24 > 0:22:27Those flammable panels were critical to the disaster.
0:22:27 > 0:22:35But beneath them was a much thicker layer of flammable
0:22:36 > 0:22:38plastic foam insulation, a product sold under
0:22:38 > 0:22:39the name Celotex RS5000.
0:22:39 > 0:22:41Celotex is an excellent insulator.
0:22:41 > 0:22:42For any given weight or thickness of the material that helps
0:22:42 > 0:22:44keep homes very warm.
0:22:44 > 0:22:47But it's combustible, so can only be used on tall
0:22:47 > 0:22:49buildings in certain designs, designs that have been carefully
0:22:49 > 0:22:55assembled on a rig like this and then tested against fire.
0:22:55 > 0:22:58We already know the design at Grenfell was never tested, but,
0:22:58 > 0:23:00this week, the makers of Celotex announced they were withdrawing
0:23:00 > 0:23:08the only such test they had prior to the fire.
0:23:09 > 0:23:12Back in 2014, the company that makes Celotex insulation sought to test
0:23:12 > 0:23:14a design that was very different to the design used
0:23:14 > 0:23:18at the Grenfell Tower.
0:23:18 > 0:23:21It was a design that would hem in the combustible
0:23:21 > 0:23:24insulation in on all sides with very flameproof material.
0:23:24 > 0:23:27But what they installed at the test centre for testing was a slightly
0:23:27 > 0:23:30different design than the test centre scientists were expecting.
0:23:30 > 0:23:38It was a design that would be more likely to pass the test,
0:23:39 > 0:23:41Based on subsequent test results, there is very strong reason
0:23:41 > 0:23:44to suppose that the original design would have passed anyway.
0:23:44 > 0:23:46But this raises a serious question.
0:23:46 > 0:23:49Why is it that it took four years and the fire at Grenfell Tower
0:23:49 > 0:23:51for anyone to notice this very serious breach in
0:23:51 > 0:23:52the testing regime?
0:23:52 > 0:24:00And there is more.
0:24:04 > 0:24:12In 2011, Celotex passed a test relating to a flame's ability
0:24:12 > 0:24:14to travel over the surface of the insulation.
0:24:14 > 0:24:17But it failed a retest last year.
0:24:17 > 0:24:19A separate test found it was not as good as previously thought
0:24:19 > 0:24:20at insulating homes.
0:24:20 > 0:24:22We don't know quite what is going on here.
0:24:22 > 0:24:24A scientist who developed Celotex products long before they went
0:24:24 > 0:24:27on tall buildings thinks part of the issue is these tests
0:24:27 > 0:24:28are all done in secret.
0:24:28 > 0:24:31What I think is it should happen.
0:24:31 > 0:24:33That reports which I used as a base for product certifications
0:24:33 > 0:24:36should be published.
0:24:36 > 0:24:44Should be publicly available, so everybody can access reports
0:24:44 > 0:24:45and scrutinise these test reports.
0:24:45 > 0:24:49Celotex has already suspended a number of products
0:24:49 > 0:24:52and is retesting them and seeking to establish what the safety
0:24:52 > 0:24:55consequences of this are.
0:24:55 > 0:24:57But as the ongoing review of building regulations has found,
0:24:57 > 0:25:03the problems we have go well beyond one insulation company.
0:25:03 > 0:25:07Chris Cook is here.
0:25:07 > 0:25:13Do you sense it helps us to understand Grenfell better?It helps
0:25:13 > 0:25:19us understand the picture in an important way. We have talked a lot
0:25:19 > 0:25:24about how for examples there are companies that will test one design
0:25:24 > 0:25:28for fire safety and take a totally different design say they are
0:25:28 > 0:25:35basically the same, even though we know they are not. We have talked
0:25:35 > 0:25:39about the transparency problem about how you can live in a tower with
0:25:39 > 0:25:42this potentially dangerous cladding and you are not allowed to see the
0:25:42 > 0:25:47evidence that says the building you are living in is safe. It adds a new
0:25:47 > 0:25:52angle to both of those things, which is what if the tests that happen are
0:25:52 > 0:25:58terrible, just wrong? What if the tests allow bad cladding designs
0:25:58 > 0:26:04through? In that situation, those two problems that you cannot see the
0:26:04 > 0:26:08evidence and the fact people might be manipulating evidence to get
0:26:08 > 0:26:15unsafe designs onto building become worse.Thank you.
0:26:15 > 0:26:17Cast your mind back to that turbulent few months
0:26:17 > 0:26:20of the 2017 election campaign.
0:26:20 > 0:26:23The terrorist attacks in London and Manchester,
0:26:23 > 0:26:26the leaked Labour manifesto, the Tory U-turn on social care,
0:26:26 > 0:26:27alongside the insistence nothing had changed.
0:26:27 > 0:26:29And then the night itself.
0:26:29 > 0:26:30Exit polls.
0:26:30 > 0:26:31Victories.
0:26:31 > 0:26:32Defeats.
0:26:32 > 0:26:35And Lord Buckethead.
0:26:35 > 0:26:37That is, perhaps, a journalist's take on it.
0:26:37 > 0:26:38But what would an artist find?
0:26:38 > 0:26:41Cornelia Parker was named official artist of the 2017 election.
0:26:41 > 0:26:43And in an exclusive interview with Steve Smith, she reveals
0:26:43 > 0:26:50for the first time how she saw it, and what she created from it.
0:26:50 > 0:26:56It took a lot of negotiating and time and permissions,
0:26:56 > 0:26:58and nothing moves fast, so it was quite a challenge,
0:26:58 > 0:27:03but it was fantastic to have that opportunity.
0:27:03 > 0:27:11I needed a drone, I think, because I wanted to have two
0:27:11 > 0:27:15cameras in the House, the benign one, a dispassionate
0:27:15 > 0:27:18camera that just watches the drone do its stuff.
0:27:18 > 0:27:23A kind of malevolent one, which is the drone, which is a free
0:27:23 > 0:27:26radical swooping around, hunting, or surveilling.
0:27:26 > 0:27:31The film is called Left, Right and Centre, and it's basically
0:27:31 > 0:27:32filmed at night at the beginning.
0:27:32 > 0:27:34It is stacks of newspapers on this desk.
0:27:34 > 0:27:36All of the newspapers from the election period and beyond.
0:27:36 > 0:27:38About five months of newspapers.
0:27:38 > 0:27:41All of these newspapers have been read here in
0:27:41 > 0:27:42the Houses of Parliament.
0:27:42 > 0:27:45They are the ones they subscribe to.
0:27:45 > 0:27:50I put all the right-wing newspapers on the right side,
0:27:50 > 0:27:54and all the left-wing on the left, and the drone disrupts
0:27:54 > 0:27:57all of the papers and blows them all over the House,
0:27:57 > 0:27:58creating this terrible mess.
0:27:58 > 0:28:01Left and right newspapers all get mingled together and they form this,
0:28:01 > 0:28:03kind of, bombardment, visual bombardment,
0:28:03 > 0:28:11of news headlines, some trivial, some meaningful.
0:28:14 > 0:28:16A lot of your finished pieces concern the printed
0:28:16 > 0:28:17media, the press.
0:28:17 > 0:28:20But there's a view that they are rather on the way out now.
0:28:20 > 0:28:22Yeah, but the fourth estate is not going away,
0:28:22 > 0:28:25people read newspapers online, that's all.
0:28:25 > 0:28:27The physical object, I like the cliche of the newspaper.
0:28:27 > 0:28:28Is that what it's become now?
0:28:28 > 0:28:32I think it has.
0:28:32 > 0:28:35I love all of those things in films where you see
0:28:35 > 0:28:37the newspapers spinning round, and, you know, on the news
0:28:37 > 0:28:39you always having a factory where they are printing them.
0:28:39 > 0:28:42So I quite like the cliche value of that.
0:28:42 > 0:28:46Perhaps if newspapers have gone in ten years it'll be
0:28:46 > 0:28:48a snapshot of a time, but they haven't
0:28:48 > 0:28:50gone away, you know?
0:28:50 > 0:28:53You get off the Tube at the end of the day and it's covered
0:28:53 > 0:28:54in Evening Standards.
0:28:54 > 0:28:55I like that.
0:28:55 > 0:28:57When you see the Tube covered in Evening Standards.
0:28:57 > 0:29:00It's somehow people have digested something and they've moved on.
0:29:00 > 0:29:02Let's talk about the Instagram feed.
0:29:02 > 0:29:05You know, it was left completely up to me what I wanted to deliver
0:29:05 > 0:29:07as election artist work.
0:29:07 > 0:29:10And I found it very hard to boil it down to just one piece.
0:29:10 > 0:29:11I'd never done social media before.
0:29:11 > 0:29:14I really enjoyed that because it was just like my sketchbook.
0:29:14 > 0:29:18I take photographs all the time, so for me it was very
0:29:18 > 0:29:21natural to be recording all of these little snippets.
0:29:21 > 0:29:24Then I started to use more video because I just thought, well,
0:29:24 > 0:29:27this action is happening, the photograph isn't going to do it.
0:29:27 > 0:29:30Strong and stable leadership...
0:29:30 > 0:29:32And then I thought, well, how can I crystallise
0:29:32 > 0:29:35all of these Instagram, all of this period of time?
0:29:35 > 0:29:36So, that's when this animation I've made,
0:29:36 > 0:29:40which is about three minutes long, called Election Abstract,
0:29:40 > 0:29:43which is basically all of my videos and images from the Instagram
0:29:43 > 0:29:51condensed into this flyby of the election and the aftermath.
0:29:51 > 0:29:53Do you think that rapid, sort of, superfluity of images
0:29:53 > 0:29:56is what the voter experienced?
0:29:56 > 0:30:00I think there was so much happening, especially with the terror attacks
0:30:00 > 0:30:05in Manchester and London Bridge, Finsbury Park mosque,
0:30:05 > 0:30:11the Westminster attack that just happened more or less same time
0:30:11 > 0:30:13as I was being appointed, and then Grenfell Tower.
0:30:13 > 0:30:16Those things played into politics whether you liked it or not.
0:30:16 > 0:30:21All of the politicians I saw out on the stump and, you know,
0:30:21 > 0:30:23at various demos and things, they seemed very engaged
0:30:23 > 0:30:24with the public.
0:30:24 > 0:30:32They were amongst the public.
0:30:34 > 0:30:37The ones that I've met seemed to be great,
0:30:37 > 0:30:39I mean from all parties, they all had their own passions
0:30:39 > 0:30:42and beliefs, they were talking to the crowd about that.
0:30:42 > 0:30:48That was great.
0:30:48 > 0:30:50Individual MPs are lowly paid and doing a pretty great job.
0:30:50 > 0:30:52Most of that was quite positive.
0:30:52 > 0:30:54But meanwhile, I'd be walking to the Tube,
0:30:54 > 0:30:57or get off a train in Scotland, for example, and I just couldn't
0:30:57 > 0:30:59stop photographing homeless people, for example.
0:30:59 > 0:31:01It just seems like...
0:31:01 > 0:31:02There's a statistic that's 15% more
0:31:02 > 0:31:04homeless people on the street over the last year.
0:31:04 > 0:31:07I got bound up with those issues by the end.
0:31:07 > 0:31:10The general public sort of took over.
0:31:10 > 0:31:14I'm curious to know whether at the end of this
0:31:14 > 0:31:20you felt more optimistic, positive about politicians,
0:31:20 > 0:31:23the press, the democratic process, or you thought, yes,
0:31:23 > 0:31:26we really are going to the dogs.
0:31:26 > 0:31:28I think I felt we were going to the dogs.
0:31:28 > 0:31:31You did think that?
0:31:31 > 0:31:34I really did think at the end, after all of the arguments,
0:31:34 > 0:31:37discussions, and the surprise of the election, that
0:31:37 > 0:31:40then afterwards that would change something.
0:31:40 > 0:31:43That that would be reflected in things going forward.
0:31:43 > 0:31:46I think the election got hijacked by Brexit.
0:31:46 > 0:31:53People were really confused about which party to vote for on that.
0:31:53 > 0:31:54And I think that the hung parliament reflected
0:31:54 > 0:32:00the ambivalence of the public.
0:32:00 > 0:32:03And yet everything juddered on as if the election hadn't happened.
0:32:03 > 0:32:04So that was a curious thing.
0:32:04 > 0:32:05I was quite surprised by that.
0:32:05 > 0:32:08Shall we do something that doesn't happen here very often?
0:32:08 > 0:32:09Shake hands.
0:32:09 > 0:32:10Thank you very much.
0:32:10 > 0:32:18Great seeing you again.
0:32:20 > 0:32:23It could have been any thing with Steve!
0:32:23 > 0:32:26And if you'd like to see the rest of Cornelia Parker's election work,
0:32:26 > 0:32:28it's on Parliament's website - and in an exhibition
0:32:28 > 0:32:29in Westminster Hall.
0:32:29 > 0:32:31That's all we have time for.
0:32:31 > 0:32:39Good night.