0:00:12 > 0:00:16Crunch time for the Conservatives, a leading Tory calls on Theresa May to
0:00:16 > 0:00:21stand up to a hardline Brexiteers and throw them out of the party.
0:00:21 > 0:00:24They're not the Tory party that I joined 40 years ago and it's
0:00:24 > 0:00:26about time Theresa stood up to them and slung them out.
0:00:26 > 0:00:28Because they've taken down Major, they took down Cameron,
0:00:28 > 0:00:33two great leaders, neither of whom stood up to them.
0:00:33 > 0:00:37All this on the day Michel Barnier has come to Downing Street to warn
0:00:37 > 0:00:43us at the time has come to choose.
0:00:43 > 0:00:47Without the customs union and outside the Single Market,
0:00:47 > 0:00:53barriers to trade and goods and services are unavoidable.
0:00:54 > 0:00:58Not avoidable? We will ask Lord Lamont if Theresa May's vision for
0:00:58 > 0:01:06Brexit is getting clearer or cloudier. Also tonight.
0:01:06 > 0:01:14Look how far women have come
0:01:14 > 0:01:15in the last one million years.
0:01:15 > 0:01:17Tonight, on the eve of the suffragette
0:01:17 > 0:01:20centenary, we ask our panel what we got right, what we got wrong
0:01:20 > 0:01:23and where we're heading now.
0:01:23 > 0:01:25Good evening.
0:01:25 > 0:01:28Suddenly, everyone's stopped mincing their words.
0:01:28 > 0:01:31As the government clarified there would be NO customs
0:01:31 > 0:01:33union post-Brexit.
0:01:33 > 0:01:35,Michel Barnier, the chief EU negotiator arriving in town,
0:01:35 > 0:01:37said that would cause unavoidable barriers to trade.
0:01:37 > 0:01:40He called on the UK to explain what it was looking for in terms
0:01:40 > 0:01:44of future relations with the EU and insisted that the time has now
0:01:44 > 0:01:46come to make a choice.
0:01:46 > 0:01:49So are those who favour a short sharp break now
0:01:49 > 0:01:50hanging out the bunting?
0:01:50 > 0:01:54As for the rest - call them Remainers or soft
0:01:54 > 0:01:56Brexiteers or what you will - are they feeling the cloud
0:01:56 > 0:01:59of something long feared becoming a stark reality?
0:01:59 > 0:02:01Our political editor Nick Watt is here.
0:02:01 > 0:02:03You've been hearing
0:02:03 > 0:02:06strong stuff from one of the Conservative party's most
0:02:06 > 0:02:11ardent Remainers tonight, Nick.
0:02:11 > 0:02:11Tell us
0:02:11 > 0:02:20what you heard.Anna Soubry has been outspoken since the referendum, she
0:02:20 > 0:02:27says her party appears to be in hock to watch describes as 35 ideological
0:02:27 > 0:02:30exit years and it is time Theresa May stood up to them and threw them
0:02:30 > 0:02:34out. If this doesn't happen Anna Soubry who was in the Cameron
0:02:34 > 0:02:37government as a Business Minister said, if it comes to it I will not
0:02:37 > 0:02:42stay in a party which is being taken over by the likes of Jacob Rhys Mogg
0:02:42 > 0:02:48and Boris Johnson. She says, we simply cannot go on like this any
0:02:48 > 0:02:54longer. Something is going to have to give because if not, not only
0:02:54 > 0:02:58will we get Jacob Rees-Mogg as Prime Minister, we will get a
0:02:58 > 0:03:01devastatingly hard Brexit. Anna Soubry has said stuff in this sort
0:03:01 > 0:03:05of territory in recent months but hasn't gone quite this far. It's
0:03:05 > 0:03:10also important to say that Anna Soubry can at times go a little
0:03:10 > 0:03:15further than some of the Remain Tory colleagues but and picking up quite
0:03:15 > 0:03:20a lot of frustration among those MPs. So today I've been looking at
0:03:20 > 0:03:26the pressures on Theresa May as she looks to settle what the UK wants
0:03:26 > 0:03:29for its future relationship with the EU.
0:03:29 > 0:03:33I'm not afraid, I'll race you and I'll win.
0:03:33 > 0:03:39Politics is, in many ways, about the art of timing.
0:03:39 > 0:03:47Winning can demand speed but sometimes being patient
0:03:49 > 0:03:51is the virtue that will ultimately take you over the finishing
0:03:51 > 0:03:53line in first place.
0:03:53 > 0:03:54Look at that white tail flash.
0:03:54 > 0:03:58And so it is proving with Brexit.
0:03:58 > 0:04:03There have been unmistakable signs of anguish amongst some Leave
0:04:03 > 0:04:06supporters who fear that as time marches on, their dreams of a clean
0:04:06 > 0:04:09Brexit are slipping away.
0:04:09 > 0:04:12And then there are Remainers, who appeared to be biding their time
0:04:12 > 0:04:14for a more complex exit from the EU.
0:04:14 > 0:04:16The fears and frustrations over the nature of the UK's departure
0:04:16 > 0:04:22from the EU have come to a head on above all one issue.
0:04:22 > 0:04:25What sort of customs relationship will the UK have with the EU?
0:04:25 > 0:04:30Some Brexit supporters fear the Treasury is nudging Theresa May
0:04:30 > 0:04:32towards a version of the current customs union which would make it
0:04:32 > 0:04:35all but impossible for the UK to negotiate free-trade deals
0:04:35 > 0:04:37around the world.
0:04:37 > 0:04:40Their nerves were calmed somewhat this morning when Downing Street
0:04:40 > 0:04:43ruled out this option.
0:04:43 > 0:04:49The EU's chief negotiator, Michel Barnier, was in
0:04:49 > 0:04:50Downing Street today, where he warned that
0:04:50 > 0:04:53leaving the customs union
0:04:53 > 0:04:55and Single Market would create unavoidable barriers to trade.
0:04:55 > 0:05:00Downing Street said this morning that the UK would not be staying
0:05:00 > 0:05:07in the customs union or a watered-down version
0:05:07 > 0:05:08dubbed "a" customs union.
0:05:08 > 0:05:10The government is looking at two options.
0:05:10 > 0:05:17A customs arrangement in which new technology will be
0:05:17 > 0:05:19harnessed to create as frictionless a border as possible
0:05:19 > 0:05:20between the UK and the EU.
0:05:20 > 0:05:25A customs partnership in which the UK and the EU
0:05:25 > 0:05:28would set their own tariffs, but they would create
0:05:28 > 0:05:30as frictionless a border as possible by levying each other's tariffs
0:05:30 > 0:05:33on goods transiting their borders.
0:05:33 > 0:05:40I understand Theresa May is still keen on this option.
0:05:40 > 0:05:43But there is a third option that could be pushed by Remain supporters
0:05:43 > 0:05:48who point out that the EU has talked of magical thinking in Whitehall.
0:05:48 > 0:05:51This is the possibility of a vote in Parliament later this year
0:05:51 > 0:05:55to maintain a version of the current customs union.
0:05:55 > 0:05:58One Remain supporter warns of serious consequences
0:05:58 > 0:06:03if Theresa May refuses to keep her options open.
0:06:03 > 0:06:07Labour's front bench itself is ideological.
0:06:07 > 0:06:10My front bench probably isn't, but it's in hock to 35 hard
0:06:10 > 0:06:14ideological Brexiteers who are not Tories.
0:06:14 > 0:06:18They're not the Tory party that I joined 40 years ago and it's
0:06:18 > 0:06:22about time Theresa stood up to them and slung them out.
0:06:22 > 0:06:25Because they've taken down Major, they took down Cameron,
0:06:25 > 0:06:28two great leaders, neither of whom stood up to them.
0:06:28 > 0:06:32Well, if it comes to it, I'm not going to stay in a party
0:06:32 > 0:06:34which is being taken over by the likes of Jacob Rees-Mogg
0:06:34 > 0:06:35and Boris Johnson.
0:06:35 > 0:06:39They're not proper Conservatives.
0:06:39 > 0:06:41If that means leaving the party, form some new alliance,
0:06:41 > 0:06:44God knows, I don't know, but we simply cannot go
0:06:44 > 0:06:52on like this any longer.
0:06:52 > 0:06:55Something is going to have to give because if it doesn't,
0:06:55 > 0:06:58not only will we get Jacob Rees-Mogg as our Prime Minister,
0:06:58 > 0:07:00we'll get a devastating hard Brexit which will cause huge damage
0:07:00 > 0:07:06to our economy for generations to come.
0:07:06 > 0:07:09And I'm not prepared to sit by any longer and put
0:07:09 > 0:07:10up with this nonsense.
0:07:10 > 0:07:12One Brexiteer insists that there's strong unity in the party.
0:07:12 > 0:07:16I've found a very strong unity of purpose which is everybody agrees
0:07:16 > 0:07:19that the British people said we needed to leave the EU.
0:07:19 > 0:07:21In order to do that we need to leave the Single Market,
0:07:21 > 0:07:24the customs union and regain control of our laws and our borders.
0:07:24 > 0:07:27And it is the politicians who will determine how we set policy
0:07:27 > 0:07:29and the civil servants who will help implement it.
0:07:29 > 0:07:31And where civil servants have tended to speak out
0:07:31 > 0:07:34perhaps more than is usual, I think Jacob feels
0:07:34 > 0:07:37that they have crossed a line which is inappropriate.
0:07:37 > 0:07:41Our political class is working on one iconic clock.
0:07:41 > 0:07:45As that now silent landmark ticks down to the Brexit deadline,
0:07:45 > 0:07:47the two sides know that whoever masters the timing may
0:07:47 > 0:07:53master the result.
0:07:53 > 0:07:56Nick Watt there.
0:07:56 > 0:07:58Joining me from Strasbourg is Mairead McGuinness,
0:07:58 > 0:08:00Vice President of the European Parliament, and Lord Lamont
0:08:00 > 0:08:02former Chancellor of the Exchequer and supporter
0:08:02 > 0:08:05of Leave Means Leave.
0:08:05 > 0:08:11I will come to you in a second, Lord Lamont. If I turn to Mairead
0:08:11 > 0:08:14McGuinness, has had become much simpler, do you understand the
0:08:14 > 0:08:19government position better, as of today? Not particularly. I think I
0:08:19 > 0:08:23understand what the UK does not want to be part of because very clearly
0:08:23 > 0:08:28the red lines of the customs union and the single market. By regret
0:08:28 > 0:08:32that but I feel those are the red lines. But I'm not sure what the
0:08:32 > 0:08:36United Kingdom wants in terms of the fib in partnership. I know these
0:08:36 > 0:08:40items were published last August in the position paper but the option
0:08:40 > 0:08:43the prime ministers seems to be backing is unprecedented and there
0:08:43 > 0:08:49has been no worked until flesh out. What we are watching is literally a
0:08:49 > 0:08:53battle within the Conservative Party about what it wants for Brexit, and
0:08:53 > 0:08:57in the meantime we here at European Union level are trying to make sure
0:08:57 > 0:09:01that we do reach some agreement with the United Kingdom because we want
0:09:01 > 0:09:06to have a relationship, post-Brexit. But we also have to finalise the
0:09:06 > 0:09:11details of the withdrawal agreement and a period so it would be quite a
0:09:11 > 0:09:15busy time and this week is certainly an interesting week in those
0:09:15 > 0:09:18developments.Mairead McGuinness, does it matter if all this is
0:09:18 > 0:09:23unprecedented? For example when Michel Barnier comes to London and
0:09:23 > 0:09:27says terrorists are unavoidable, they are not. Everyone is calling
0:09:27 > 0:09:34everyone else's bluff -- tariffs are unavoidable.I don't think this is a
0:09:34 > 0:09:39game of bluff because in my office for example practically everyday
0:09:39 > 0:09:41there representatives of British industry, whether from the
0:09:41 > 0:09:46pharmaceutical sector or others trying to get me to understand their
0:09:46 > 0:09:49position and I understand it completely. Because they have fears
0:09:49 > 0:09:54about moving away from the European regulatory framework when it comes
0:09:54 > 0:09:57to access to pharmaceuticals for example. Let's stop calling this a
0:09:57 > 0:10:01game of bluff. It is not, it is about people's lives and livelihoods
0:10:01 > 0:10:05and this is why, politically this is difficult. Michel Barnier needs to
0:10:05 > 0:10:10spell out how things are. If the UK leads the customs union and single
0:10:10 > 0:10:16market and we don't know what will be in its
0:10:18 > 0:10:20be in its place, and right to do that and I think that David Davis
0:10:20 > 0:10:23understands that and I hope other ministers understand it. What I hope
0:10:23 > 0:10:26will happen this week is that officials and others will come to a
0:10:26 > 0:10:29better idea for the UK wants.You will better than most the huge
0:10:29 > 0:10:34question over the Irish border. -- you will understand this better than
0:10:34 > 0:10:37most. Do you really think the EU parliament will pass any deal that
0:10:37 > 0:10:44creates a border with an Ireland?I think the question is the other way
0:10:44 > 0:10:49around. It is the one piece of text I keep very close to my heart. It is
0:10:49 > 0:10:53about this agreement which the United Kingdom has made, it is
0:10:53 > 0:10:56paragraph 49 of the text. I think it's really important that the
0:10:56 > 0:10:59United Kingdom has given a clear commitment that would be no return
0:10:59 > 0:11:04to a hard border on the island of Ireland. It wants to do that in
0:11:04 > 0:11:09terms of future arrangements, that needs to be compatible, it is saying
0:11:09 > 0:11:18they will have specific solutions to the border... But with respect to
0:11:18 > 0:11:23your position, I represent a border community on the island of Ireland.
0:11:23 > 0:11:28We know what we have today and that is what we value. And we very much
0:11:28 > 0:11:32appreciate the United Kingdom 's agreement that there will be no hard
0:11:32 > 0:11:35border and we would appreciate the United Kingdom coming to the table
0:11:35 > 0:11:41and negotiating with the EU so there is no hard border. This is part of
0:11:41 > 0:11:44the process, you know how difficult the withdrawal agreement was, the
0:11:44 > 0:11:48last minutes when it was finally agreed on money and borders and
0:11:48 > 0:11:52citizens rights? I hope it's not the same with this feature partnership.
0:11:52 > 0:11:56Because we needed for security of business and others that we get some
0:11:56 > 0:12:02sort of framework in place so that business can understand what lies
0:12:02 > 0:12:07ahead.Sure. Mairead McGuinness thank you. Lord Lamont, first those
0:12:07 > 0:12:11comments from Anna Soubry who was called upon the Prime Minister to
0:12:11 > 0:12:15show some spine and sling at the hardline Brexiteers. She has named
0:12:15 > 0:12:18Boris Johnson and Jacob Rees-Mogg in particular and she points to 35
0:12:18 > 0:12:23others. Messi I think that is quite ridiculous, frankly. I don't want to
0:12:23 > 0:12:28be rude about Anna Soubry but she does tend to go over the top
0:12:28 > 0:12:33sometimes.I think she is doing that here. There are, obviously, while
0:12:33 > 0:12:36the government is formulating its approach, different voices from
0:12:36 > 0:12:42different parts of the party.She is not wrong when she says that the
0:12:42 > 0:12:47divisions over Europe brought down Major and brought down Cameron and
0:12:47 > 0:12:53Theresa May will be the third victim unless she stands up to them.I
0:12:53 > 0:12:55don't think these hardline Brexiteers as you call them are
0:12:55 > 0:13:00aiming to bring her down, far from it, they are trying to influence in
0:13:00 > 0:13:06one direction.Do you think they do have that influence? Are they in
0:13:06 > 0:13:11control?Of course not. They do things that Anna Soubry was
0:13:11 > 0:13:14objecting to, one leaving the customs union, and never leaving the
0:13:14 > 0:13:17single market. Theresa May has decided to pursue that for two
0:13:17 > 0:13:21simple reasons. The first with the customs union is to have the freedom
0:13:21 > 0:13:26to strike trade deals elsewhere in the world, and leaving the single
0:13:26 > 0:13:30market is essential because she judges, and I think she was this
0:13:30 > 0:13:34strongly, that the British public will also determined that we should
0:13:34 > 0:13:40have greater control over our borders.She says?And you can't do
0:13:40 > 0:13:44that unless you leave the single market. Those of two reasons, it is
0:13:44 > 0:13:49not to do with any faction in the Conservative Party.She feels
0:13:49 > 0:13:52differently, she calls them ideological Brexiteers who are not
0:13:52 > 0:13:56Tories. Let me run is passing. Something has to give. If Theresa
0:13:56 > 0:14:00May doesn't stand up and show, as she calls it, spine, not only will
0:14:00 > 0:14:04we get Jacob Rees-Mogg as Prime Minister, she says, we will get a
0:14:04 > 0:14:08hardline Brexit that will cause damage... Would you welcome Jacob
0:14:08 > 0:14:12Rees-Mogg is Prime Minister?When she says devastating hardline Brexit
0:14:12 > 0:14:15she was objecting to two things the Prime Minister has decided. Leaving
0:14:15 > 0:14:20the single market and leaving the customs union. I have explained that
0:14:20 > 0:14:24that is being done for logical reasons, not because Jacob Rees-Mogg
0:14:24 > 0:14:29or anyone else asked for it. Other people have asked for it.Mairead
0:14:29 > 0:14:33McGuinness, or you just heard, is that not only is this unprecedented,
0:14:33 > 0:14:37this is not a game of bluff, businesses and people and lives will
0:14:37 > 0:14:41be affected because there is no deal possible without tariffs that cost
0:14:41 > 0:14:47money.If there is a free trade agreement, tariffs will... There has
0:14:47 > 0:14:53to be free-trade agreement because it is overwhelmingly in the
0:14:53 > 0:14:57interests of the European Union. Make the assumption that the EU is
0:14:57 > 0:15:03rational and will look after own interests.
0:15:03 > 0:15:08We keep telling ourselves that it is Europe's interest to come to the
0:15:08 > 0:15:11table and give us the deal we want but Europe has made very little of
0:15:11 > 0:15:16the running so far and it will survive without the UK.We are
0:15:16 > 0:15:21sitting in the UK, quite understandably, the way you look at
0:15:21 > 0:15:26it, you say, this is what the EU wants, that's never going to change,
0:15:26 > 0:15:30and here's what Britain once, it is unattainable. That's how the
0:15:30 > 0:15:35domestic press look at it but it isn't the reality. What was said
0:15:35 > 0:15:38before the financial settlement was agreed, 100 billion, that has never
0:15:38 > 0:15:44come down and in the end the EU changed its position and Theresa May
0:15:44 > 0:15:46got what she wanted and I think that will happen again.Thank you for
0:15:46 > 0:15:48joining us.
0:15:48 > 0:15:50The White House has said it is "concerned" about the fall
0:15:50 > 0:15:54on US stock markets today after the Dow Jones Industrial
0:15:54 > 0:15:56Average dropped by 1,175 points, the biggest one-day fall
0:15:56 > 0:15:57in six years.
0:15:57 > 0:16:04Our business editor Helen Thomas is here.
0:16:04 > 0:16:10What happened, what is this down to? Just to put a bit of context, this
0:16:10 > 0:16:14is a huge drop, the biggest percentage fall in six years. I
0:16:14 > 0:16:20think it's the biggest fall in points terms ever on the Dow. What
0:16:20 > 0:16:26will have rattled people, at one point today it was down nearly 6000
0:16:26 > 0:16:31points in a short space of time, there was a sense of panic selling
0:16:31 > 0:16:38-- 1600 points. There was a pretty big drop on the markets in the USA
0:16:38 > 0:16:43on Friday, and the same in Europe. The stock markets had a very strong
0:16:43 > 0:16:48January and they've wiped out those gains in a couple of days and some
0:16:48 > 0:16:52are down for the year. We are seeing that of the two years where stock
0:16:52 > 0:17:00markets only went up, in a straight line, volatility is definitely back.
0:17:00 > 0:17:07A massive jump in the so-called fear guage today.How do you see these
0:17:07 > 0:17:11figures?Everyone has been waiting for a market correction, markets
0:17:11 > 0:17:16going up, there have been concerns about overvaluation. The question is
0:17:16 > 0:17:20whether this is a quick, healthy correction after which people see an
0:17:20 > 0:17:24opportunity to get back in or is it something more lasting? The
0:17:24 > 0:17:28important thing is that this started in the bond markets, they've been
0:17:28 > 0:17:34selling off since the beginning of the year. It started with good news,
0:17:34 > 0:17:37a stronger global economy, making people think that maybe Central
0:17:37 > 0:17:41banks are going to put the brakes on, fewer interest rate rises than
0:17:41 > 0:17:46we thought and it rattled the markets. What people are worried
0:17:46 > 0:17:52about is that it may be a more pronounced pick-up and there is
0:17:52 > 0:17:56uncertainty especially about inflation. If that's the case it has
0:17:56 > 0:17:58the prospect of causing more problems and having a lasting effect
0:17:58 > 0:18:01on the markets.Thank you for joining us.
0:18:01 > 0:18:03Tomorrow marks 100 years since the first women
0:18:03 > 0:18:05won the right to vote.
0:18:05 > 0:18:09The day will be marked in a speech by Theresa May praising the herosim
0:18:09 > 0:18:11of the suffrage movement and warning that debate in modern
0:18:11 > 0:18:14politics is being coarsened by bitterness and abuse.
0:18:14 > 0:18:18Tonight, we devote the rest of the programme to asking
0:18:18 > 0:18:21if we should feel proud of how far we've come in since 1918
0:18:21 > 0:18:24or berate the lack of more substantial progress.
0:18:24 > 0:18:27With our panel of guests we look at then, now and the whole
0:18:27 > 0:18:28issue of gender itself.
0:18:28 > 0:18:31Is that now going out of fashion?
0:18:31 > 0:18:35Here's a brief history of the journey with a bit of help
0:18:35 > 0:18:38from the DVD collection.
0:18:38 > 0:18:42Remember when cavewomen used to dress like this?
0:18:42 > 0:18:44We've come a long way since the Lower Paleolithic period
0:18:44 > 0:18:46though it doesn't always feel that way.
0:18:46 > 0:18:50The history of women's progress can be told through cinema.
0:18:50 > 0:18:54Women should not exercise judgment in political affairs.
0:18:54 > 0:18:58Although the fact this film, Suffragette, took so long to make
0:18:58 > 0:19:01and went bankrupt along the way probably tells us much of the story
0:19:01 > 0:19:03as much as the film itself.
0:19:03 > 0:19:04It spoke of women winning a political voice at the bollard box.
0:19:08 > 0:19:11It spoke of women winning a political voice at the battlot box.
0:19:12 > 0:19:15It spoke of women winning a political voice at the ballot box.
0:19:15 > 0:19:17We are in every home, we're half the human race.
0:19:17 > 0:19:19You can't stop us all.
0:19:19 > 0:19:22In Land Girls, we saw how war forced women to match up to the men,
0:19:22 > 0:19:24entering the workforce in their hundreds of thousands in
0:19:24 > 0:19:26the first half of the 20th century.
0:19:26 > 0:19:29Fast forward to the late 60s, that workforce of women,
0:19:29 > 0:19:31beginning to win the right to be paid the same as men
0:19:31 > 0:19:33for the work they were doing.
0:19:33 > 0:19:35Unarguably, that's still a work in progress.
0:19:35 > 0:19:37Sorry, I thought the secretary would sit out here.
0:19:37 > 0:19:38That's right.
0:19:38 > 0:19:39I'm the secretary.
0:19:39 > 0:19:46By the '80s, the shoulder pad embodied the boardroom power battle.
0:19:46 > 0:19:48Women working their way up to leadership positions
0:19:48 > 0:19:50in business and politics, even if they did still
0:19:50 > 0:19:52call on Harrison Ford to lead them there.
0:19:52 > 0:19:54As societal acceptance of single teen motherhood was landed
0:19:54 > 0:19:57in audience's laps with Juno, a film that dares to frame
0:19:57 > 0:19:59the question of abortion before plumping, big-time, pro-life.
0:19:59 > 0:20:01What, are you ashamed that we did it?
0:20:01 > 0:20:05No.
0:20:05 > 0:20:07Because at least you don't have to have the evidence
0:20:07 > 0:20:08under your sweater.
0:20:08 > 0:20:09I'm going to head out.
0:20:09 > 0:20:10Oh, no, no.
0:20:10 > 0:20:11Thank you.
0:20:11 > 0:20:13Why don't you stay over?
0:20:13 > 0:20:15Yes, no, I'm not going to stay here.
0:20:15 > 0:20:20You have an early day.
0:20:20 > 0:20:22Meanwhile, Amy Schumer was telling men on a one-night
0:20:22 > 0:20:25stand what to do in bed, the sexual revolution dictated
0:20:25 > 0:20:29by women who knew how to enjoy sex and when to tell men to go home.
0:20:29 > 0:20:33Whilst Hollywood took these messages of female empowerment and threw
0:20:33 > 0:20:39money at the women's revolution, behind the scenes the exploitation
0:20:39 > 0:20:41was flourishing, as the me too movement continues to lay bare.
0:20:41 > 0:20:43And you don't have to look hard to find a battle
0:20:43 > 0:20:47still being fought in the workplace.
0:20:47 > 0:20:51So that was the first 200,000 years.
0:20:51 > 0:20:53Will the next few move any quicker?
0:20:53 > 0:20:58Which way will feminism go now?
0:20:58 > 0:21:01Joining me to discuss this I have the artist Tracey Emin,
0:21:01 > 0:21:04the novelist Anne Atkins, the former deputy leader
0:21:04 > 0:21:06of the Labour party Harriet Harman, and Ash Sarkar,
0:21:06 > 0:21:10the senior editor of Novara Media.
0:21:10 > 0:21:17What a pleasure to have you here. Harriet, was there a time in your
0:21:17 > 0:21:21life that was pre-feminism? Was there an awakening when things felt
0:21:21 > 0:21:28different?Absolutely, distinctly, I remember growing up, the idea that
0:21:28 > 0:21:32the big ambition for a girl was to have a good husband and when she'd
0:21:32 > 0:21:38achieved this ambition, to be a good housewife to that husband. And men
0:21:38 > 0:21:43were regarded as superior and women, subordinate. The thing about the
0:21:43 > 0:21:46women's movement, they came along and said we aren't inferior, we want
0:21:46 > 0:21:53to be treated as equal and to be partners with our husband.Did you
0:21:53 > 0:21:58accept it at first?I didn't because my mother didn't accept it, she said
0:21:58 > 0:22:01to me, most people think that if a man says something it is more likely
0:22:01 > 0:22:05to be true than if a woman says it but I don't agree with that. So I
0:22:05 > 0:22:11was getting subversive messages. However also getting the general
0:22:11 > 0:22:16view that I should get a husband and get a bit of education but not too
0:22:16 > 0:22:20much because no man would want to marry a girl who is too clever by
0:22:20 > 0:22:25half in case she outshone him. A lot of mixed messages and then the
0:22:25 > 0:22:30women's movement came along and said, forget that, we want to be
0:22:30 > 0:22:36equal in the home, outside the home, in public life, everything else.
0:22:36 > 0:22:41Ash,, do you think there has been a woman for you or has feminism been
0:22:41 > 0:22:47vulnerable?I was lucky in how I was raised, I grew up with feminism, my
0:22:47 > 0:22:52mum from an early age would make picture books with my sister and I
0:22:52 > 0:22:58doing adventurous things so we'd grow up with a sense of possibility
0:22:58 > 0:23:02but we were taught about experiences in the women's movement in the 70s
0:23:02 > 0:23:06and 80s. She told us it wasn't the most accommodating place to be a
0:23:06 > 0:23:10woman of colour and while we talk about the mainstream history of
0:23:10 > 0:23:15feminism, the one we are celebrating today, there is a counter history of
0:23:15 > 0:23:19feminism led by female trade unionists, by migrant women, women
0:23:19 > 0:23:24of colour, and crossing with the anti-colonial and antiracism
0:23:24 > 0:23:28movements. One of the important things to remember is that there
0:23:28 > 0:23:33isn't a single feminist movement.Do they contradict each other or do
0:23:33 > 0:23:36they pull in different directions? Often people in different directions
0:23:36 > 0:23:41but they don't have too. They go in different directions because social
0:23:41 > 0:23:45movements reflect the hierarchies in society and it's only through
0:23:45 > 0:23:50solidarity that we can redress that. I can't think of a contemporary
0:23:50 > 0:23:55artist who has lifted the lid on women are more than your work,
0:23:55 > 0:24:01whether it is sexual behaviour, abortion, the sort of, you know, the
0:24:01 > 0:24:08raw truth about what it is to be a woman and all the difficult bits. Do
0:24:08 > 0:24:14you think you started a conversation that wasn't being had before?Yeah I
0:24:14 > 0:24:17think a lot of the things that happened to me in my life, whether
0:24:17 > 0:24:23it's rape, whether it's abortion, I was raised by my mum, a single mum
0:24:23 > 0:24:29who raised me, I think having those experiences made me a much stronger
0:24:29 > 0:24:33woman because it's pretty painful, the whole thing is painful, being a
0:24:33 > 0:24:38woman is excruciatingly painful. When you talked about rape and when
0:24:38 > 0:24:42you talked about your own abortion, did you feel that was breaking a big
0:24:42 > 0:24:46taboo?I think so, a lot of women are really ashamed about abortion
0:24:46 > 0:24:50for example but I've always said that no woman wants to have an
0:24:50 > 0:24:57abortion, you don't wake up and feel like having one. You do it and it
0:24:57 > 0:25:00feels horrific to go through that, no woman wants to have an abortion.
0:25:00 > 0:25:07You are in a position where it is Hobson's choice, you have no choice.
0:25:07 > 0:25:12Maybe in hindsight you regret it but at the time that's all you can
0:25:12 > 0:25:17possibly do and you feel very much alone. I think society has been
0:25:17 > 0:25:21incredibly cruel to a lot of women who have made that decision one way
0:25:21 > 0:25:27or another.Do you think this is a valuable conversation that is being
0:25:27 > 0:25:34had now? Has this been a liberation for women?We're speaking as if
0:25:34 > 0:25:36feminism was invented in the late 20th century but I think it goes
0:25:36 > 0:25:44back thousands of years. You think about the campaign to end war, and
0:25:44 > 0:25:54men who have campaigned...On some of the points that Tracey made,
0:25:54 > 0:25:58talking about abortion and being able to have one, is that progress?
0:25:58 > 0:26:02Yes, the last hundred years have been progress. I think we've made
0:26:02 > 0:26:08mistakes, as you do with any radical changes. I think the biggest mistake
0:26:08 > 0:26:15I would pinpoint is when, you know, there are some ways in which 100
0:26:15 > 0:26:21years ago women's lives were better than men's. Instead of men's being
0:26:21 > 0:26:27raised to women's standards... For instance, lung cancer, men have very
0:26:27 > 0:26:32steadily fewer and fewer of them are dying of lung cancer, more women are
0:26:32 > 0:26:39dying of it. We are doing something wrong, 100 years ago, women smoked
0:26:39 > 0:26:43less.You could take breast cancer and prostate cancer and reverse
0:26:43 > 0:26:48them.That's not what I'm saying, alcoholism, men used to be three and
0:26:48 > 0:26:51a half times more likely to be drinking to their own detriment, now
0:26:51 > 0:26:55the gap has narrowed in the wrong direction and the same with
0:26:55 > 0:26:59promiscuous sex and all sorts of things. Of course we'd agree that
0:26:59 > 0:27:03the last 100 years have been huge progress but not everything has been
0:27:03 > 0:27:09right.A lot of women were dying before the age of 45 in childbirth.
0:27:09 > 0:27:17Sure.They didn't make it past 45, forget lung cancer, they didn't even
0:27:17 > 0:27:21get through childbirth.You're not hearing what I'm saying, by and
0:27:21 > 0:27:25large it's progress, of course it is, we are grateful for the last
0:27:25 > 0:27:27hundred years, but I'm not saying we've got everything right. Of
0:27:27 > 0:27:34course we haven't.I'd like to make more progress in promiscuous sex,
0:27:34 > 0:27:41I'm speaking for myself here. But the point I'm making is that one of
0:27:41 > 0:27:45the things I think we need to get back to doing is talking about power
0:27:45 > 0:27:49rather than just personal choices. I think that a feminism that
0:27:49 > 0:27:55emphasises how much sex is the feminist amount of sex to have, how
0:27:55 > 0:28:00much you should be drinking, misses the point. The point is that women,
0:28:00 > 0:28:02politically, socially and economically are disempowered. It's
0:28:02 > 0:28:07really nothing to do with these personal choices.We all agree, I'm
0:28:07 > 0:28:11pinpointing a tiny detail about what we're talking about, we haven't got
0:28:11 > 0:28:17everything right, that's all.One of the big issues, the gender pay gap,
0:28:17 > 0:28:22generating hundreds of column inches and this column shows that the gap
0:28:22 > 0:28:26is still present. By the time a girl hits 20 years old there is a pay gap
0:28:26 > 0:28:32and that expands as women hit child-bearing age.
0:28:32 > 0:28:38I know you want to come in Harriet, how can we be 47 years on from the
0:28:38 > 0:28:43equal pay act and still be talking about this?Because pay
0:28:43 > 0:28:48discrimination... In the past, in the pre-feminist days, it was
0:28:48 > 0:28:52positively regarded as a bad thing to argue for a woman's pay rate to
0:28:52 > 0:28:57be equal to a man's because he had to be the breadwinner and bring home
0:28:57 > 0:29:02the family wage and it was distracting against the struggle for
0:29:02 > 0:29:06him to have a proper wage for her to have a proper wage so it was frowned
0:29:06 > 0:29:10upon, even in the trade union movement. And the argument then was
0:29:10 > 0:29:14that then women were entitled to equal pay and not everyone agrees
0:29:14 > 0:29:19that it is right that they should but of course pay discrimination
0:29:19 > 0:29:22flourishes in secret. Now we have the transparency that is coming in
0:29:22 > 0:29:26but everyone is going to have to publish their pay gap if they employ
0:29:26 > 0:29:32more than 250 people, by April. And at that point we will be able to see
0:29:32 > 0:29:35laid bare the extent of the discrimination and be able to tackle
0:29:35 > 0:29:39and but part of it is because of the unequal division of Labour in the
0:29:39 > 0:29:44home. If you've got a situation where women have most responsibility
0:29:44 > 0:29:47for caring for children and older relatives the corollary is that they
0:29:47 > 0:29:53lose out in the workplace. That is why men's involvement in the home
0:29:53 > 0:29:57with their children and the elegy relatives is as important as women
0:29:57 > 0:30:02being able to do more at work.Have we overly defined the role that men
0:30:02 > 0:30:07can play without feeling emasculated or damaged in some way? Women can
0:30:07 > 0:30:11now do everything, can't they. They can do every job and they can stay
0:30:11 > 0:30:14at home and look after children but it is much harder for a man to take
0:30:14 > 0:30:22that role in the home without it being...The thing here is that we
0:30:22 > 0:30:27fought for maternity pay and leave to be longer and higher. We also
0:30:27 > 0:30:31fought for paternity pay and leave but actually at some point we are
0:30:31 > 0:30:35saying, why don't men fight for paternity pay instead of saying to
0:30:35 > 0:30:39us how hard it is for them to us to work part-time why don't they fight
0:30:39 > 0:30:45for that because we can't fight men's battles as well as women's.On
0:30:45 > 0:30:48the equal pay thing everyone keeps talking about hundred years and it
0:30:48 > 0:30:53isn't. For most women it is 90 years. The vote for the majority of
0:30:53 > 0:30:58women came in in 1928 and you had to be a property owner, you had to be
0:30:58 > 0:31:02university educated and you had to be over 30. So we can now start
0:31:02 > 0:31:10talking about class. That cut at the majority
0:31:22 > 0:31:25of women in this country. And sadly enough, the majority of women in
0:31:25 > 0:31:27this country will only vote for their husbands vote for, I'm afraid
0:31:27 > 0:31:30and a lot of people showed me down for that but it is true.I'm glad
0:31:30 > 0:31:33you mentioned class and I think this is a good time to think about how
0:31:33 > 0:31:36race class and gender work together because there is a gender pay gap
0:31:36 > 0:31:39and it gets worse if you are a woman of colour. A black woman is three
0:31:39 > 0:31:42times more likely to be unemployed than a white woman. All these things
0:31:42 > 0:31:44have economic outcomes. It also means you can have a patriarch you
0:31:44 > 0:31:46without the immediate figure of the patriarchy, just these deeply
0:31:46 > 0:31:48unequal outcomes that need addressing, it's one of the things
0:31:48 > 0:31:53that has negatively affected us. Can I finish this, one sad thing as the
0:31:53 > 0:31:57demise of union agitation for better pay and conditions along the lines
0:31:57 > 0:32:01of gender and race. In the era of Sheryl Sandberg we think that if we
0:32:01 > 0:32:07improve our attitude we will be treated better at work, no...Can I
0:32:07 > 0:32:12just ask, is the problem that women have tried to emulate the male
0:32:12 > 0:32:18working patterns instead of discovering their own?It is amiss
0:32:18 > 0:32:21characterisation to imply that feminism is about individualism. For
0:32:21 > 0:32:26the most part feminism is about the grid of solidarity and what we
0:32:26 > 0:32:29wanted was collective feminism in the workplace for trade unions to
0:32:29 > 0:32:34adopt the rights of women as well as her man. Some feminists have argued
0:32:34 > 0:32:38for individualism but the majority would want collective action.There
0:32:38 > 0:32:43is more than one strain of feminism. I'm saying that there's a different
0:32:43 > 0:32:48kind of history, socialist famine in history...I'm glad you brought up
0:32:48 > 0:32:51the fact that women of colour are even more discriminated against
0:32:51 > 0:32:59another women.Of course we must address that. But is a fundamental
0:32:59 > 0:33:02difference between racial discrimination and gender
0:33:02 > 0:33:05discrimination in that one day we can envisage full equality across
0:33:05 > 0:33:15the races. Let me finish. With sexual differences, in a sense,
0:33:15 > 0:33:18there will never be that unless we are constantly striving for it
0:33:18 > 0:33:23because women will always be more vulnerable. We are weaker
0:33:23 > 0:33:27physically, generally speaking and our reproductive functions make us
0:33:27 > 0:33:32more vulnerable socially.You think we will wipe out racism before we
0:33:32 > 0:33:37wipe out...We will never... Because when I walked down the street I am
0:33:37 > 0:33:40more vulnerable than one my husband walks down the street. That's
0:33:40 > 0:33:45obvious. The reason I raise that is because there is a sense in which we
0:33:45 > 0:33:49will always have to keep striving for sexual equality and we will only
0:33:49 > 0:33:56get it when we get things like child care...With all due respect I think
0:33:56 > 0:33:59this is historical. If you look at this Public and private divide
0:33:59 > 0:34:03between home and work this is a product of the industrial
0:34:03 > 0:34:07revolution. Similarly racism is a product of historical forces. If I
0:34:07 > 0:34:12can just say it in terms of what I have felt has held me back in my
0:34:12 > 0:34:17life, I have experienced the most violence and hostility, it has been
0:34:17 > 0:34:23because of my race, not my gender. Of course. Maybe in 500 years we
0:34:23 > 0:34:26will have babies born in labs but the point is that women have to take
0:34:26 > 0:34:30more time out to have a baby even if it's only a few days it's still more
0:34:30 > 0:34:36than men have to. So unless we have proper childcare and keep fighting
0:34:36 > 0:34:41positive discrimination...I'm just going to move us on because Anne has
0:34:41 > 0:34:45talked about the future, 500 years and babies born in labs and
0:34:45 > 0:34:47something interesting is going on.
0:34:47 > 0:34:49So what's the future of this debate?
0:34:49 > 0:34:50Where will it go next?
0:34:50 > 0:34:52Following the Women's March in Washington last year,
0:34:52 > 0:34:55there was a backlash from some women about how female empowerment
0:34:55 > 0:34:56is being framed.
0:34:56 > 0:34:58The use of pink pussy hats and banners associating the movement
0:34:58 > 0:35:01with vaginas were criticised by transgender activists.
0:35:01 > 0:35:04This year the Pussycat movement said it would discard the pink hats
0:35:04 > 0:35:06and the vagina as symbol of female empowerment to make sure
0:35:06 > 0:35:14no-one felt excluded.
0:35:16 > 0:35:20So I wonder what the future looks like. Tracy and will start with you.
0:35:20 > 0:35:25Are we re-evaluating gender as a whole?When I first went to art
0:35:25 > 0:35:29school in 1983I was interviewed by two women and they asked me one
0:35:29 > 0:35:35question, what do you think of feminism. This was in 1983 and I
0:35:35 > 0:35:39said I don't. They said why not. I said, I just have to do what I have
0:35:39 > 0:35:43to do to get on and that has been my attitude. A lot of women spend too
0:35:43 > 0:35:48much time talking about things, getting theories, sitting down, it
0:35:48 > 0:35:52is no good just sitting down at a table and being an armchair
0:35:52 > 0:35:58feminist. You have to get out there, change things, have a voice, be
0:35:58 > 0:36:01motivated. I've changed a lot in the art world. I have changed a lot for
0:36:01 > 0:36:07women. I have a very loud voice on women's issues because I live them.
0:36:07 > 0:36:09I'm not sitting around philosophising. I have gone through
0:36:09 > 0:36:14these things. I have been raped. I have had abortions. My list of
0:36:14 > 0:36:18catastrophes in my life is endless. I'm not looking through a history
0:36:18 > 0:36:21book and guessing what will happen in the future, talking about here
0:36:21 > 0:36:25and now and how we must change things and what we must do. I'd like
0:36:25 > 0:36:29to see one big policy change and I think it would make life that for a
0:36:29 > 0:36:34lot of women in this country.And like an end to the hostile
0:36:34 > 0:36:37environment immigration policy. In March last year a five months
0:36:37 > 0:36:40pregnant woman who had been kidnapped and raped over a period of
0:36:40 > 0:36:46six months went to the police to be reporter experience. She was taken
0:36:46 > 0:36:50to a rape crisis Centre and then arrested and interrogated for
0:36:50 > 0:36:53immigration offences. The immigration policy we have today
0:36:53 > 0:36:57makes women vulnerable. We incarcerate victims of torture,
0:36:57 > 0:37:03sexual violence, that's got to end. It has to come back too, for you,
0:37:03 > 0:37:12race, race is to be intrinsic to the feminist debate?Race and class.All
0:37:12 > 0:37:25right. To Anne and Harriet, this movement to take the vagina out of
0:37:25 > 0:37:30feminism, to de-gender everything, do you understand that? To say, I
0:37:30 > 0:37:34don't want to recognise the female of the feminine, I want to move
0:37:34 > 0:37:41somewhere totally neutral?I am always a bit anxious when the
0:37:41 > 0:37:44general progressive movements seem to be arguing amongst themselves
0:37:44 > 0:37:51rather than looking to the wrongs out there. I think rather than an
0:37:51 > 0:37:55internal critic of feminism we should look at the problems of
0:37:55 > 0:38:00misogyny and turning ourselves outwards. Every sort of
0:38:00 > 0:38:04discrimination and prejudice is wrong, whether it is on race,
0:38:04 > 0:38:08disability, gender or sexual orientation. Everyone has to fight
0:38:08 > 0:38:12in their own way. But all of them, whatever people are doing on this
0:38:12 > 0:38:17issues is better than those opposing change and opposing equality, so I
0:38:17 > 0:38:21think in a way we shouldn't have a hierarchy of inequality or judge
0:38:21 > 0:38:26each other too harshly because we are always being judged ourselves.
0:38:26 > 0:38:31We have to try to be generous to all of us who are fighting against
0:38:31 > 0:38:36hatred and prejudice, and for equality.Anne, I will give you the
0:38:36 > 0:38:41last word.I want to go back to you started, personal experiences. My
0:38:41 > 0:38:46inspiration through life has been my mother, the most amazing person. She
0:38:46 > 0:38:50came to this country at 18 on her own from Australia to take up a
0:38:50 > 0:38:54maths scholarship when women couldn't take degrees in a man's
0:38:54 > 0:38:59subject, she took some of the best mathematicians in the country, and
0:38:59 > 0:39:04yet her greatest joy, I will be shot down in this but her greatest joy
0:39:04 > 0:39:08was being and a mother. What my mother had that was a wonderful was
0:39:08 > 0:39:17the most terrific joy in life. She had her choices.
0:39:20 > 0:39:22had her choices. She had a fantastic brain and yet even more important
0:39:22 > 0:39:26than maths, which she adored was the people in her life. She symbolises a
0:39:26 > 0:39:32fantastic voice.She still had a period and had to pay tax on every
0:39:32 > 0:39:35tampon and sanitary towel she used and that should be stopped
0:39:35 > 0:39:39immediately, but is barbaric. She never mentioned it because you just
0:39:39 > 0:39:45enjoy to life. Week have run out of time, thank you all for coming in.
0:39:45 > 0:39:48Evan will be here tomorrow, thank you all for watching
0:39:48 > 0:39:50and a very good night, Bye