0:00:06 > 0:00:12It's Brexit decision time folks.
0:00:12 > 0:00:19Scarecrows don't talk.It's pleasant tone that we too. Of course people
0:00:19 > 0:00:25do go both ways.Are you doing that on purpose or can you not make up
0:00:25 > 0:00:30your mind?That is the trouble, I cannot make up my mind!
0:00:30 > 0:00:32We've been pondering on it for 19 months,
0:00:32 > 0:00:35but now a crucial cabinet committee is trying to argue out
0:00:35 > 0:00:41what kind of Brexit we want.
0:00:41 > 0:00:43It'll take some wizardry for them to reach agreement.
0:00:43 > 0:00:46But here in the studio, we'll hear some of the arguments.
0:00:46 > 0:00:48Easier trade with the EU, or more independence from it?
0:00:48 > 0:00:50What kind of customs border do we want?
0:00:50 > 0:00:53Also tonight, the other great debate - Internet reform.
0:00:53 > 0:00:55Are tech companies platforms or publishers -
0:00:55 > 0:01:00should they take responsibility for what gets posted on their sites?
0:01:00 > 0:01:03The companies are realising they have two act and if they do not the
0:01:03 > 0:01:07danger is for them that governments will start to legislate.
0:01:07 > 0:01:08And, Black Panther the movie.
0:01:08 > 0:01:10The first black Marvel comic superhero film -
0:01:10 > 0:01:17it's wowing critics.
0:01:17 > 0:01:21What's its significance?
0:01:21 > 0:01:27We'll discuss with the guy who wrote the comic and a film critic.
0:01:30 > 0:01:34Hello.
0:01:34 > 0:01:36Well, we've been debating and dithering for over a year,
0:01:36 > 0:01:38perhaps more dithering than debating, but one thing
0:01:38 > 0:01:40everybody agrees on now, is that we can't go
0:01:40 > 0:01:41on delaying a choice.
0:01:41 > 0:01:44We have to tell the EU "this is our vision
0:01:44 > 0:01:46of a new relationship", and annoyingly, it has to be
0:01:46 > 0:01:49a realistic vision at that.
0:01:49 > 0:01:52So it is crunch time - and this could be the biggest two
0:01:52 > 0:01:54days of Theresa May's premiership, because the Brexit cabinet
0:01:54 > 0:01:56sub-committee is thrashing out the arguments.
0:01:56 > 0:02:04Call it soft or hard Brexit, Norway, or Canada.
0:02:04 > 0:02:06How do we finesse that stark choice?
0:02:06 > 0:02:09We'll rehearse some of the arguments they have undoubtedly been having
0:02:09 > 0:02:10but a little briefing first.
0:02:10 > 0:02:15Here's Nick Watt.
0:02:15 > 0:02:18From wars to peacetime, it's grand corridors and gilded
0:02:18 > 0:02:19rooms have witnessed some of the great decisions
0:02:19 > 0:02:24in British history.
0:02:24 > 0:02:27Theresa May had assumed she would stamp her mark
0:02:27 > 0:02:34on our history by shaping Brexit within the walls of Downing Street.
0:02:34 > 0:02:38And so today, ministers on the Cabinet's Brexit subcommittee
0:02:38 > 0:02:41gathered to discuss the nature of the UK's future
0:02:41 > 0:02:44relationship with the EU.
0:02:44 > 0:02:48Progress was said to be slow today.
0:02:48 > 0:02:51One source close to a Cabinet minister complained to me that it
0:02:51 > 0:02:55all had the feel of kicking decisions into the long grass.
0:02:55 > 0:02:57Another source expressed confidence that the Cabinet as a whole
0:02:57 > 0:03:01would reach agreement by the end of the month.
0:03:01 > 0:03:04But today's meeting was held as senior Tories acknowledge
0:03:04 > 0:03:11that the Cabinet is not the only source of power in shaping Brexit.
0:03:11 > 0:03:16Beyond Downing Street there are two other centres of power.
0:03:16 > 0:03:19Parliament may well have a significant say.
0:03:19 > 0:03:24Brexiteer Tories are already making their presence felt.
0:03:24 > 0:03:27But a combination of an evolving Labour Party and the House of Lords
0:03:27 > 0:03:31could force the government's hand in other ways.
0:03:31 > 0:03:33And then, of course, there is the EU, which
0:03:33 > 0:03:37appears to be playing hardball at the moment.
0:03:37 > 0:03:39Until recently, it had been assumed that Parliament could,
0:03:39 > 0:03:44at best, take potshots at the government on Brexit.
0:03:44 > 0:03:51Now pro-European MPs and peers have far grander ambitions.
0:03:51 > 0:03:54These parliamentarians want to amend the EU withdrawal bill in the House
0:03:54 > 0:03:58of Lords on access to the single market and on a customs relationship
0:03:58 > 0:04:02with the EU in a way that would be acceptable to the Labour Party
0:04:02 > 0:04:03and pro-European Tories when the bill returns
0:04:03 > 0:04:08to the House of Commons.
0:04:08 > 0:04:12One source close to a Cabinet minister told me there are Remain
0:04:12 > 0:04:15ministers who want Parliament to do their work for them.
0:04:15 > 0:04:18These pro-Europeans believe they have been vindicated
0:04:18 > 0:04:20by a government assessment of the economic
0:04:20 > 0:04:25consequences of Brexit.
0:04:25 > 0:04:30A breakdown of the UK regions shows that, under a no-deal scenario,
0:04:30 > 0:04:32the size of the economy in the Leave heartland of the north-east
0:04:32 > 0:04:35of England would be 16% smaller in 15 years compared
0:04:35 > 0:04:38with current forecasts.
0:04:38 > 0:04:42In the West Midlands, another Leave area,
0:04:42 > 0:04:44the figure would be 13%.
0:04:44 > 0:04:46London, a Remain stronghold, would be the least
0:04:46 > 0:04:49effected by slower growth.
0:04:49 > 0:04:53The government says these are provisional findings.
0:04:53 > 0:04:57And of course the EU will have its say.
0:04:57 > 0:05:01The European Commission is proposing sanctions to punish the UK
0:05:01 > 0:05:04during the transition period if it breaches EU rules.
0:05:04 > 0:05:08One Cabinet minister told me it was a deliberately
0:05:08 > 0:05:11provocative negotiating ploy.
0:05:11 > 0:05:15The power to shape Brexit may well be spreading beyond Downing Street.
0:05:15 > 0:05:23For the moment, though, the ball sits with its current inhabitants.
0:05:23 > 0:05:29Nick is with me.
0:05:29 > 0:05:35You must have more Intel on what inside the crucial meeting today?
0:05:35 > 0:05:39Interesting speech this evening by the Prime Minister to the
0:05:39 > 0:05:41conservative black-and-white ball, she said ever since the British
0:05:41 > 0:05:44people delivered board and the referendum I have had no doubt about
0:05:44 > 0:05:49what our new relationship with the EU must mean, control of our money,
0:05:49 > 0:05:52control of our borders and control of our laws. She's knocking on the
0:05:52 > 0:06:01head the idea that she does not have a for Brecon. -- Brexit. I have to
0:06:01 > 0:06:06say I am hearing some pretty gloomy accounts, one source close to a
0:06:06 > 0:06:11cabinet minister said to me there was a dreary reading out of
0:06:11 > 0:06:14preprepared scripts. Another source said the only thing they could agree
0:06:14 > 0:06:18on was that they disagree but I have to say Theresa May loyalists are
0:06:18 > 0:06:23saying they do not recognise those accounts and they are absolutely
0:06:23 > 0:06:28confident there will be agreement. What is the choreography and timing?
0:06:28 > 0:06:33What is the process?Today was a norther Ireland and immigration,
0:06:33 > 0:06:38tomorrow is the future relationship with the EU and the trade
0:06:38 > 0:06:41relationship with the EU and there is to be a third meeting later this
0:06:41 > 0:06:45month and the idea then is that the full Cabinet will look and agree
0:06:45 > 0:06:49with what they have come up with and that is to do two things. By the
0:06:49 > 0:06:54time you have EU Council at the end of March there would be agreement
0:06:54 > 0:06:59between the UK and EU on the implementation period. There are
0:06:59 > 0:07:03difficulties on that at the moment. And the other thing is for the UK to
0:07:03 > 0:07:07tell the EU what it once for a future trade relationship so the UK
0:07:07 > 0:07:12can influence the council guidelines which are then due to go to the
0:07:12 > 0:07:21European Commission.Thank you very much.
0:07:21 > 0:07:23So, the key decisions are about borders and regulation.
0:07:23 > 0:07:26Do we rebuild our own customs border with the EU?
0:07:26 > 0:07:30A border that allows us and the EU to monitor or tax our trade and thus
0:07:30 > 0:07:31have separate trade policies?
0:07:31 > 0:07:33How do we solve the Irish problem if we do?
0:07:33 > 0:07:35On regulation, we won't be in the single market,
0:07:35 > 0:07:38but should we agree to align our product regulations with theirs,
0:07:38 > 0:07:39so that border checks are minimal?
0:07:39 > 0:07:42We have a panel of two commentators and two politicians,
0:07:42 > 0:07:43from different perspectives.
0:07:43 > 0:07:45Jill Rutter is Programme Director for the Institute for Government.
0:07:45 > 0:07:50Dr Andrew Lilico is Executive Director of Europe Economics
0:07:50 > 0:07:56I'm also joined by DUP MP Ian Paisley Jr -
0:07:56 > 0:07:59his party supported Brexit - and Conservative MP and former
0:07:59 > 0:08:06Attorney General Dominic Grieve, who supported Remain.
0:08:06 > 0:08:10Good evening to you all. We will have a less dreary discussion than
0:08:10 > 0:08:16what they had on the subcommittee. Ian Paisley if you were in there
0:08:16 > 0:08:18today, 40 seconds, what would be your opening gambit on the trade
0:08:18 > 0:08:26relationship?I think they missed the mac -- the Prime Minister a
0:08:26 > 0:08:29spell that out tonight, this is about the British people being in
0:08:29 > 0:08:33control of their own destiny. We want to make sure we have a free
0:08:33 > 0:08:36trade relationship going forward with the EU. Given that they have as
0:08:36 > 0:08:40much to lose any bad deal as we have to lose this is about getting a good
0:08:40 > 0:08:43deal for all of the British people and we need to stop being so
0:08:43 > 0:08:52negative about this and pessimistic. I am sorry. I just want to hear. I
0:08:52 > 0:08:56don't want to be political, I want to hear your practical suggestion
0:08:56 > 0:09:01for a customs union and regulatory alignment, what is your pitch not to
0:09:01 > 0:09:05Theresa May, what are you telling her to take to the Europeans?We
0:09:05 > 0:09:11want a really good fisheries deal, that is key for us.The key thing
0:09:11 > 0:09:15is, trade and...Money makes the world go round and trade here will
0:09:15 > 0:09:18determine the drive and politicians like us and everyone else want to
0:09:18 > 0:09:26have a good trading deal and a good relationship.
0:09:27 > 0:09:30relationship.Is Canada OK, Canada take deal?I think it's daft to say
0:09:30 > 0:09:32it must be like Canada or Switzerland, we need a good bespoke
0:09:32 > 0:09:36deal for the next kingdom.From watching of Herod, how will the
0:09:36 > 0:09:41Europeans react and does it make sense, Andrew?There is sympathy at
0:09:41 > 0:09:45the European level for having a free trade agreement, probably one that
0:09:45 > 0:09:49includes some services, they are not sure how much financial services
0:09:49 > 0:09:53they would want to include, but there is some pushback about exactly
0:09:53 > 0:10:01what will happen on the Irish border.We will come to that!I
0:10:01 > 0:10:05think the EU...He is talking about Canada take deal, they would
0:10:05 > 0:10:11interpret that as Canada?Yeah, or Canada plus a few extras. It will
0:10:11 > 0:10:14not be just like a Canada deal so politically would not want to say it
0:10:14 > 0:10:20is a Canada deal but it is broadly in that realm.Negatives and
0:10:20 > 0:10:24positives of that deal?The EU has lots of trade agreements with lots
0:10:24 > 0:10:28of countries, there is no reason not to have one with the UK but what it
0:10:28 > 0:10:32does mean is there will be there quite up panoply of things at the
0:10:32 > 0:10:36border. It means we can run a different trade policy and have
0:10:36 > 0:10:40different tariffs, we are not applying the common external tariff
0:10:40 > 0:10:44is a potential Bert Harris at that border which is an issue for Ireland
0:10:44 > 0:10:48we need to work out. It would also enable us to do trade deals with
0:10:48 > 0:10:52other countries but that means we might commit of regulatory alignment
0:10:52 > 0:10:56so for example a lot of talk in the summer about a trade deal with the
0:10:56 > 0:11:01US. We know some of the things they want like letting in agriculture
0:11:01 > 0:11:04regulation under their terms which are different from the EU approach
0:11:04 > 0:11:09to regulation. The EU would want to make sure the UK border and
0:11:09 > 0:11:12particularly the border in Ireland does not become a back door into the
0:11:12 > 0:11:16single market with different standards.It does not sound like
0:11:16 > 0:11:21you have solved the Irish problem with that.The Irish problem is a
0:11:21 > 0:11:26particle at the core problem in the south of Ireland. -- a party but her
0:11:26 > 0:11:31problem in the south of Ireland. It is not in the Republic of Ireland's
0:11:31 > 0:11:35interest to have a troublesome border.But they need to enforce...
0:11:35 > 0:11:39If they start putting up enforcement tariffs that is a matter for them
0:11:39 > 0:11:43given most of the trade is with ourselves and the united states of
0:11:43 > 0:11:46America I think they would be foolish to do that.They might see
0:11:46 > 0:11:54it differently.They want to have a bad relationship of us? Come on.
0:11:54 > 0:11:56Dominic Grieve, where would you start the meeting like this one
0:11:56 > 0:12:02today?If the Prime Minister can achieve what she set out in her
0:12:02 > 0:12:06Lancaster House and Florence speeches why should I complain? We
0:12:06 > 0:12:10would effectively have our cake and eat it. Complete access to the
0:12:10 > 0:12:14single market is if we were still in it, there would be no tariffs
0:12:14 > 0:12:17because we would have succeeded in finding the magic we are dealing
0:12:17 > 0:12:21with it and at the same time we would not be bound by those EU
0:12:21 > 0:12:23regulations which are clearly objectionable to some of my
0:12:23 > 0:12:28colleagues. That's not the problem. The problem is logically its most
0:12:28 > 0:12:33unlikely we are going to get that. Because the EU will not give it to
0:12:33 > 0:12:39us because it undermines their integrity.So what would you
0:12:39 > 0:12:42suggest?You have to do a cost benefit analysis of where the best
0:12:42 > 0:12:46benefit for the next kingdom lies and the best benefit lies in our
0:12:46 > 0:12:49ability to trade to the maximum possible in providing goods and
0:12:49 > 0:12:54services, free of regulatory inhibition with our European
0:12:54 > 0:12:58partners because they are our closest trading partners and no
0:12:58 > 0:13:02other trading partners elsewhere in the world are ever likely to
0:13:02 > 0:13:07substitute themselves for it.So in the customs union, or a customs
0:13:07 > 0:13:12union, I'm sorry I get stuck on them...It would have to be a
0:13:12 > 0:13:17customs union and all I would say about that and here I think I
0:13:17 > 0:13:23disagree is if we are honouring the agreement we reached in December and
0:13:23 > 0:13:26outlines with the EU on the terms of withdrawal I find it difficult to
0:13:26 > 0:13:31see how we will not be in a customs union because unless somebody comes
0:13:31 > 0:13:36up with some extraordinary technical way of avoiding the checks which
0:13:36 > 0:13:41would have to go with it we will end up with a hard border. I know we
0:13:41 > 0:13:45don't want that but it's not completely an issue for the Irish
0:13:45 > 0:13:49Republic, it's actually an issue for the EU and the Irish Republic will
0:13:49 > 0:13:54be forced to have that border even if they don't want it.By the EU.
0:13:54 > 0:14:02THEY TALK OVER EACH OTHERThey cannot escape that.Plusses and
0:14:02 > 0:14:07minuses of what Dominic Grieve outlined Andrew?OK so a key plus is
0:14:07 > 0:14:13you would not have rules of origin or other kinds of things, less
0:14:13 > 0:14:16bureaucracy as you deal internally with trade within the European Union
0:14:16 > 0:14:21but she would have an ability to do trade deals externally severely
0:14:21 > 0:14:24impaired so that might raise the question of if you have taken back
0:14:24 > 0:14:27control over trade policy which might be one of the things people
0:14:27 > 0:14:32thought they were voting for. I don't think it addresses the Irish
0:14:32 > 0:14:38border question because if you have, if you have different issues...
0:14:38 > 0:14:44Different regulations...You still need to check things so it just
0:14:44 > 0:14:51takes away the tariff question. Necessary but not efficient?I think
0:14:51 > 0:14:55whatever would be your solution to the regulatory difference would
0:14:55 > 0:14:58allow you to check the tariffs so I don't think it solves the question
0:14:58 > 0:15:00or is a requirement for solving the question.
0:15:05 > 0:15:09The Dominic Grieve option, is that an option? They keep saying you can
0:15:09 > 0:15:15have Norway or Canada and nothing in between.Norway is not in the
0:15:15 > 0:15:19customs union, it is a member of the single market, and that is why the
0:15:19 > 0:15:23Norway Swedish border has been visited by almost every
0:15:23 > 0:15:25Parliamentary select committee Lakra. There are checks at that
0:15:25 > 0:15:29border, at the US and Canada border and they have a free-trade
0:15:29 > 0:15:35agreement. None of those countries you get a refund if you go and buy
0:15:35 > 0:15:39something expensive in Iceland, you get your VAT back at the border
0:15:39 > 0:15:43because it is not in the customs union said the question is do we
0:15:43 > 0:15:46want to be both in the single market and the customs union and that is
0:15:46 > 0:15:51what we are in now. Obviously still being part of the single market
0:15:51 > 0:15:58comes with ECJ jurisdiction...And you're just advocating some...I
0:15:58 > 0:16:01have the sake as a lawyer and contours of the fact that whatever
0:16:01 > 0:16:07trade agreement you get into, somebody is around to arbitrate it
0:16:07 > 0:16:10and the session we have with the European Court of Justice seems to
0:16:10 > 0:16:14slightly missed the point although I do understand that direct effect is
0:16:14 > 0:16:20a particular problem.We have little time, it sounds like we are miles
0:16:20 > 0:16:29apart... Can I offer a solution? That you have a customs union for
0:16:29 > 0:16:32goods and things that crossed the border, physical products, and
0:16:32 > 0:16:37complete freedom to negotiate new trade deals?If we are outside these
0:16:37 > 0:16:40in the market I don't think were going to get a customs union for
0:16:40 > 0:16:45services anyway so I think we talking about one for goods in the
0:16:45 > 0:16:51context of Ireland and therefore the Holebas. These are very complex
0:16:51 > 0:16:55issues of detail. I'm not saying they are insoluble but they are, get
0:16:55 > 0:17:00the -- and therefore the whole of us. But do we simple by them and
0:17:00 > 0:17:06thence Ah Mau gets up right when they are difficult to fix?There are
0:17:06 > 0:17:11deals all over the world, this is not a major issue that should stop
0:17:11 > 0:17:15is doing trade. My fear is that unfortunately what you see appears
0:17:15 > 0:17:19to be that we have given up on Britain and the British people
0:17:19 > 0:17:22getting on with it and making a great trade deal going forward,
0:17:22 > 0:17:28that's the downside.Can your parties about this? That matter your
0:17:28 > 0:17:35party survive this?I very much hope so but I do recognise that there are
0:17:35 > 0:17:39deep divisions.Anna Soubry said on this programme but she could not
0:17:39 > 0:17:46serve under Jacob Rees-Mogg and you couldn't...That is a hypothetical.
0:17:46 > 0:17:50But these are held together not necessarily by people agreeing on
0:17:50 > 0:17:53everything but by ties of loyalty and affection. Clearly there can
0:17:53 > 0:17:57come a point in a process of party with the ties of loyalty and
0:17:57 > 0:18:01affection get so stressed that it snaps and that is when the party
0:18:01 > 0:18:06starts to fall apart. The difficulty is that we are a party which
0:18:06 > 0:18:10historically has been very pragmatic in its approach to problems and we
0:18:10 > 0:18:13have just introduced, by a revolutionary means they recommend,
0:18:13 > 0:18:19a deep ideological division. And for a pragmatic party to get over that
0:18:19 > 0:18:26and absorb the ideological division and come together to deliver
0:18:26 > 0:18:30pragmatic government is clearly an immense challenge but then look at
0:18:30 > 0:18:33Labour. They are as equally divided, they are all over the place and they
0:18:33 > 0:18:37cannot answer any of the similar questions about what they want.But
0:18:37 > 0:18:42yet but the country first and not the party, the interests of our
0:18:42 > 0:18:46traders and people come and we will get over this and you have too.
0:18:46 > 0:18:49Thank you very much indeed.
0:18:49 > 0:18:52Viewed with western eyes, the Chinese system of justice has
0:18:52 > 0:18:55not exactly lived up to the word justice, in its pursuit of one case,
0:18:55 > 0:18:56relating to five booksellers.
0:18:56 > 0:18:59It's a fascinating story this, going back a few years.
0:18:59 > 0:19:01They operated from a business based in Hong Kong, called
0:19:01 > 0:19:05Causeway Bay Books which published and sold political gossip among
0:19:05 > 0:19:08other titles, clearly not to the liking of the authorities
0:19:08 > 0:19:09in mainland China.
0:19:09 > 0:19:14In response, the authorities have dealt with the five men harshly,
0:19:14 > 0:19:18appearing to cross all sorts of lines in the process.
0:19:18 > 0:19:22It all started when the men mysteriously disappeared
0:19:22 > 0:19:25from different locations in late 2015.
0:19:25 > 0:19:29Tonight we'll focus on one of them, Gui Minhai, Chinese born,
0:19:29 > 0:19:32but a Swedish national, and whose daughter is with me.
0:19:32 > 0:19:33Here's a brief chronology.
0:19:35 > 0:19:38On October 17th, 2015, Gui left his holiday
0:19:38 > 0:19:43apartment in Pattaya, Thailand, with a man in a striped
0:19:43 > 0:19:49shirt who was speaking Chinese on his phone.
0:19:49 > 0:19:50He wasn't seen again for three months.
0:19:50 > 0:19:52Then, in January 2016, he turned up in China,
0:19:52 > 0:19:55claiming on state media that he voluntarily turned himself
0:19:55 > 0:19:57into answer to a drunk driving incident from 2003,
0:19:57 > 0:20:03that had reportedly resulted in the death of a student.
0:20:03 > 0:20:09For the best part of two years he was held in detention in mainland
0:20:09 > 0:20:13China without legal assistance or consular access.
0:20:13 > 0:20:18Then, in October last year, having apparently served his sentence
0:20:18 > 0:20:21for a traffic offence, he was released and began
0:20:21 > 0:20:23living under surveillance in a police-managed flat
0:20:23 > 0:20:27in the eastern city of Ningbo.
0:20:27 > 0:20:30Until January 20th this year, when he was travelling with Swedish
0:20:30 > 0:20:34consular officials to get some medical attention in Beijing.
0:20:34 > 0:20:36He was picked up and detained again by Chinese police.
0:20:36 > 0:20:39The Swedes say there were as many as ten officers waiting for him
0:20:39 > 0:20:44at the train station.
0:20:44 > 0:20:49Well, I'm joined by Gui Minhai's daughter, Angela Gui.
0:20:49 > 0:20:52Good evening to you. Tell us what contact you have had with your
0:20:52 > 0:21:03father.From the very beginning, in 2015, when he first disappeared, I
0:21:03 > 0:21:06did not have very much contact at all for those two years he was in
0:21:06 > 0:21:13custody. I had a couple of written messages on Skype in which he mostly
0:21:13 > 0:21:19told me to keep quiet because it was going to hurt his case if I didn't.
0:21:19 > 0:21:23I chose not to and I was not about to speak to him any more, I had a
0:21:23 > 0:21:26few phone calls in which he was trying to persuade me to not speak
0:21:26 > 0:21:33to media.And what do you know about his current condition? He was
0:21:33 > 0:21:39apparently seeking medical help when he was arrested this time.Yes. I
0:21:39 > 0:21:44was allowed to speak to him after he was nominally released in October
0:21:44 > 0:21:54last year.Three months then.Yes, when he was in lured and I was
0:21:54 > 0:21:59allowed to Skype with him almost every day. -- when he was in Ningbo.
0:21:59 > 0:22:03I found out a lot about his health condition. He has been diagnosed
0:22:03 > 0:22:13with a less by eight knowledges to in Ningbo. -- by a neurologist.
0:22:13 > 0:22:18Motor neurone disease.Yes, although they said that because of the lack
0:22:18 > 0:22:23of specialism in ALS in China, they suggested he travelled abroad for
0:22:23 > 0:22:29medical care.The most remarkable thing about this case surely has to
0:22:29 > 0:22:33be what looks like an abduction by the Chinese from a property in
0:22:33 > 0:22:38Thailand.Yes.
0:22:38 > 0:22:42Thailand.Yes.We just didn't think that went on very often or am I
0:22:42 > 0:22:48being naive? That is very surprising in 2015. Are we sure that is what
0:22:48 > 0:22:51happened? He came out and said that is not what happened but nobody
0:22:51 > 0:22:56believed his confession.There is a Chinese official version of what
0:22:56 > 0:23:01happened in which he is supposed to have travelled on his own, for some
0:23:01 > 0:23:06reason leaving behind his passport and not entering the country legally
0:23:06 > 0:23:11in order to turn himself in for this alleged traffic accident that he is
0:23:11 > 0:23:16supposed to have caused back in 2003, for which we have not seen any
0:23:16 > 0:23:22evidence yet. But of course there are a lot of questions to be asked
0:23:22 > 0:23:27about that narrative.Of course. Can I give you the Chinese state would
0:23:27 > 0:23:32question the embassy said, " Cobra has piloted the law in China,
0:23:32 > 0:23:37criminal enforcement measures have been taken, China Bob McNair
0:23:37 > 0:23:41judicial sovereignty must be respect and the legal case in Berlin, though
0:23:41 > 0:23:44a Swedish citizen, must be dealt with in accordance with the law in
0:23:44 > 0:23:49China. " And that must be right, even if you are Swedish, if you
0:23:49 > 0:23:55break the law in China the Chinese are entitled to do whatever in the
0:23:55 > 0:24:02country.Yes. I think it is great that they have promised to act in
0:24:02 > 0:24:07accordance with the law in China but I would like to ask them how they
0:24:07 > 0:24:13have acted according to the law in China, especially because they did
0:24:13 > 0:24:18not seize him in China, they seized him in Thailand, which breaks
0:24:18 > 0:24:27several international laws, presumably breaks Thai law.Is it a
0:24:27 > 0:24:32dilemma, you can see making a fuss and highlighting the case can make
0:24:32 > 0:24:36them digging their heels? And some would say maybe it is better to do
0:24:36 > 0:24:40this under the radar, you must have that dilemma?Yes, I have been
0:24:40 > 0:24:45feeling that for over two years now. I don't think one has to choose one
0:24:45 > 0:24:50way or another. I think there are different ways of doing advocacy and
0:24:50 > 0:24:56I think that in this case, and of course I might be wrong, because
0:24:56 > 0:25:02this case is unprecedented in so many ways as you mentioned, but I
0:25:02 > 0:25:05think that in this case it is very important to also be public about
0:25:05 > 0:25:10it.
0:25:11 > 0:25:16it. Because of the encouragement that I had from my dad when he was
0:25:16 > 0:25:19in custody and he told me to not speak to the media and other
0:25:19 > 0:25:27governments, I thought that that must surely reflect fear and people
0:25:27 > 0:25:35telling you what to say.Angela Gui, thank you very much.
0:25:35 > 0:25:37YouTube or Facebook: publisher or platform?
0:25:37 > 0:25:39It is the defining debate of our time -
0:25:39 > 0:25:40those concerned about polluted public discourse want
0:25:40 > 0:25:43the social media giants to be seen as publishers,
0:25:43 > 0:25:45taking responsibility for what appears on their screens.
0:25:45 > 0:25:47The companies - keen not to take responsibility for everything posted
0:25:47 > 0:25:50and reposted on their sites - like to think of themselves not
0:25:50 > 0:25:53as publishers, but as a mere shelf on to which others
0:25:53 > 0:25:55put their publications.
0:25:55 > 0:25:58But there's an interesting history to this distinction -
0:25:58 > 0:25:59a legal position deriving from a different country
0:25:59 > 0:26:02and a different era, that has somehow found itself
0:26:02 > 0:26:09dictating the treatment of the tech giants.
0:26:09 > 0:26:11All that may, however, be changing, as our technology editor,
0:26:11 > 0:26:13David Grossman, reports.
0:26:13 > 0:26:18DIAL-UP MODEM SOUNDS.
0:26:18 > 0:26:21The internet...
0:26:21 > 0:26:24It's strange to think that we don't even really know when it
0:26:24 > 0:26:29started but it used to fit on a single computer...
0:26:29 > 0:26:32Would we have been nearly so excited in the mid-90s when we unboxed
0:26:32 > 0:26:35the consumer internet given all the bad stuff that we now
0:26:35 > 0:26:40know also lurked inside?
0:26:40 > 0:26:42Like Pandora, we must all make our own balance sheet
0:26:42 > 0:26:47of its contents of the good and the harm.
0:26:47 > 0:26:49It is a complete accident that the internet looks
0:26:49 > 0:26:54and feels the way it does, a sort of lawless Wild West
0:26:54 > 0:26:56where people can say and do more or less anything they want.
0:26:56 > 0:27:01It is certainly not what the politicians had in mind.
0:27:01 > 0:27:04However, a tiny clause in one law passed in the United States 20 years
0:27:04 > 0:27:09ago more or less props up the whole thing.
0:27:09 > 0:27:12Internet freedom has always been controversial but now there is more
0:27:12 > 0:27:15pressure than ever to reform this law, with profound, perhaps even
0:27:15 > 0:27:21chilling consequences for all of us.
0:27:21 > 0:27:25I think we are at a really dangerous moment for free expression online.
0:27:25 > 0:27:28There are politicians responding to public concern,
0:27:28 > 0:27:36saying we must do something and what they do is not clear.
0:27:37 > 0:27:40The tech companies are realising they have to act and if they don't
0:27:40 > 0:27:43act, the danger is for them that governments will start to legislate.
0:27:43 > 0:27:45In the early 90s, the reaction of many lawmakers to the internet
0:27:45 > 0:27:46was pretty much this...
0:27:46 > 0:27:48It's not exactly homework.
0:27:48 > 0:27:49It's the internet.
0:27:49 > 0:27:50What?
0:27:50 > 0:27:51Turn it off!
0:27:51 > 0:27:52Turn it off!
0:27:52 > 0:27:54I've heard about this internet, it is a corrupting influence,
0:27:54 > 0:27:59I saw a programme about it.
0:27:59 > 0:28:03In the United States, Congress passed the Communications
0:28:03 > 0:28:06Decency Act in 1996 which, as it name suggests,
0:28:06 > 0:28:11was all about keeping this new online world clean.
0:28:11 > 0:28:16But the US Supreme Court struck down most of its restrictions.
0:28:16 > 0:28:20One clause, uncontroversial at the time, Section 230, remained.
0:28:20 > 0:28:27It says no provider or user of an interactive computer service
0:28:27 > 0:28:30shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information
0:28:30 > 0:28:31provided by another information content provider.
0:28:31 > 0:28:35This is unique.
0:28:35 > 0:28:37No other jurisdiction in the world has such a sweeping immunity
0:28:37 > 0:28:42for online services.
0:28:42 > 0:28:45The US is home to some of the largest interactive computer
0:28:45 > 0:28:49services in the world and I don't think that's a coincidence.
0:28:49 > 0:28:52Section 230 has played a very active role in fostering
0:28:52 > 0:28:56the growth of social media, search engines, consumer review
0:28:56 > 0:29:01sites, because there is sort of this almost laissez faire attitude
0:29:01 > 0:29:08towards user content because of Section 230.
0:29:08 > 0:29:12At the time, hardly anyone understood the implications of 230.
0:29:12 > 0:29:15It was actually just an adaptation of a law that
0:29:15 > 0:29:16protected book shop owners.
0:29:16 > 0:29:20It was argued they could not be expected to read every book
0:29:20 > 0:29:23they stocked so it would be unfair to prosecute them for
0:29:23 > 0:29:26something written in one.
0:29:26 > 0:29:28But in the case of books of course, there are publishers
0:29:28 > 0:29:32who can be sued and they, therefore, act as gatekeepers.
0:29:32 > 0:29:35What the framers of 230 completely failed to appreciate is that
0:29:35 > 0:29:37on the internet the barriers to publication would disappear.
0:29:37 > 0:29:39There would not only be no gatekeepers,
0:29:39 > 0:29:44there would be no gates.
0:29:44 > 0:29:47Everything from eBay to Facebook to Airbnb to Twitter
0:29:47 > 0:29:52to TripAdvisor to Google, they all rely on Section 230.
0:29:52 > 0:29:56It is the ultimate backstop that protects them from prosecution.
0:29:56 > 0:30:00And it's the ultimate reason why, seemingly, independent sovereign
0:30:00 > 0:30:06countries like the UK cannot pass laws on that than to rein
0:30:06 > 0:30:07in the tech giants.
0:30:07 > 0:30:10We can certainly try to do it.
0:30:10 > 0:30:13I mean, Facebook and Twitter, they have offices in London
0:30:13 > 0:30:19providing services related the provision of the Facebook
0:30:19 > 0:30:25service and the Twitter service so we can certainly put pressure
0:30:25 > 0:30:29on these companies but ultimately, were they to want to continue
0:30:29 > 0:30:31to provide services and avoid UK regulation, there is the potential
0:30:31 > 0:30:36they could simply withdraw back to the United States.
0:30:36 > 0:30:38As if to demonstrate this legislative weakness,
0:30:38 > 0:30:40tomorrow a committee of MPs will hold an evidence
0:30:40 > 0:30:42session in Washington.
0:30:42 > 0:30:45This is something that has never been done before,
0:30:45 > 0:30:48to have a live select committee hearing in another country.
0:30:48 > 0:30:51What it meant is because the tech companies themselves
0:30:51 > 0:30:54are headquartered in America, it's giving us access to people
0:30:54 > 0:30:56who are involved in the global policy decisions these companies
0:30:56 > 0:31:01make, not just the people from the UK that represent them.
0:31:01 > 0:31:06The committee is looking specifically at fake news.
0:31:06 > 0:31:08Like many of the big internet problems we struggle with,
0:31:08 > 0:31:11it has its origins in Section 230 which treats online companies
0:31:11 > 0:31:14as platforms, not publishers.
0:31:14 > 0:31:19The select committee chair says regulatory reform is long overdue.
0:31:19 > 0:31:22I think we need to come up with a new definition
0:31:22 > 0:31:25that is somewhat between a social media company being a pure
0:31:25 > 0:31:30publisher and simply being a platform, to recognise
0:31:30 > 0:31:33that they have a responsibility to police and manage their platform
0:31:33 > 0:31:36in a way that restricts the harm that some users
0:31:36 > 0:31:37can cause and create.
0:31:37 > 0:31:41And I think it is our job to say, to identify what we think the social
0:31:41 > 0:31:44problems are that the social media companies need to act against.
0:31:44 > 0:31:48In the US, many politicians are in a similar place
0:31:48 > 0:31:52but the difference is that they can be legislatively effected.
0:31:52 > 0:31:54Do you acknowledge today for the record that child sex
0:31:54 > 0:32:00trafficking is a serious problem on Backpage?
0:32:00 > 0:32:05After consultation with counsel, I decline to answer your question.
0:32:05 > 0:32:08What has triggered the debate there is the case of Backpage,
0:32:08 > 0:32:11an online classified adverts site that was found by a Senate
0:32:11 > 0:32:14investigation to have knowingly run ads for children who had been
0:32:14 > 0:32:16trafficked for sex.
0:32:16 > 0:32:18But the law apparently couldn't touch Backpage
0:32:18 > 0:32:21because of Section 230.
0:32:21 > 0:32:28Legislation is currently going through Congress to change that.
0:32:28 > 0:32:31I think if we don't address this issue with a targeted exception,
0:32:31 > 0:32:33I think that Section 230 could be in jeopardy down
0:32:33 > 0:32:36the road altogether.
0:32:36 > 0:32:40What I would rather see is a targeted exception that
0:32:40 > 0:32:48actually prevents sex trafficking, and still preserves the enormous
0:32:48 > 0:32:52free-speech and innovation that Section 230 promotes,
0:32:52 > 0:32:55and I think that is possible.
0:32:55 > 0:32:59I think if we don't address this issue, I would be very worried that
0:32:59 > 0:33:02that could cause more sweeping changes to Section 230 which I think
0:33:02 > 0:33:07would be very dangerous.
0:33:07 > 0:33:10But there is a worry that once Section 230 is chipped away at,
0:33:10 > 0:33:13it won't end there.
0:33:13 > 0:33:16They might start with laws to restrict sex trafficking,
0:33:16 > 0:33:21but the politicians would soon come back for more.
0:33:21 > 0:33:23There is already an appetite to restrict the right to publish
0:33:23 > 0:33:26what is known as fake news.
0:33:26 > 0:33:29People have the right to speak their mind,
0:33:29 > 0:33:32and no one can get into the business of censoring opinion.
0:33:32 > 0:33:34People can have wildly different opinions on the same event
0:33:34 > 0:33:37but as long as that event is true and based on fact, that's fine.
0:33:37 > 0:33:41I think we have to take a stand where people are spreading harmful
0:33:41 > 0:33:44content that is based on lies.
0:33:44 > 0:33:46So the social media companies are increasingly under pressure
0:33:46 > 0:33:49to decide what is true and what is false, what is legal
0:33:49 > 0:33:52and what is illegal, and the algorithms they will use
0:33:52 > 0:33:56will, of necessity, be blunt, sweeping and cautious.
0:33:56 > 0:34:00If you think about the sheer volume of content being uploaded
0:34:00 > 0:34:04onto the internet on a daily basis, it is just impossible for internet
0:34:04 > 0:34:07providers to be able to effectively decide what is illegal and legal
0:34:07 > 0:34:13content, and I think we are just going to end up
0:34:13 > 0:34:18in a situation where jokes, where perfectly legitimate content,
0:34:18 > 0:34:21even controversial content that we might find distasteful that
0:34:21 > 0:34:24ought to be there as part of a free and open internet,
0:34:24 > 0:34:27is simply removed.
0:34:27 > 0:34:30So the barriers to ordinary people publishing might go up again
0:34:30 > 0:34:33and the internet become more like TV or newspapers
0:34:33 > 0:34:37with one way communication.
0:34:37 > 0:34:40It may be that we will see this chaotic free for all of the last
0:34:40 > 0:34:47couple of decades as a mere blip in human history.
0:34:51 > 0:34:54It's had brilliant reviews, has a 100% score on Rotten Tomatoes,
0:34:54 > 0:34:57and has been called the first adult superhero movie.
0:34:57 > 0:34:59And it's coming to a screen near you next week.
0:34:59 > 0:35:01The Black Panther.
0:35:01 > 0:35:08We are home.
0:35:08 > 0:35:11My son, it is your time.
0:35:11 > 0:35:16# Show me my respect and bow down #.
0:35:16 > 0:35:23You get to decide what kind of King you are going to be.
0:35:23 > 0:35:25Don't freeze.
0:35:25 > 0:35:29I never freeze.
0:35:29 > 0:35:32# The revolution will not be televised #.
0:35:32 > 0:35:35It is the first Marvel comic film production
0:35:35 > 0:35:43featuring a black superhero, and the fact that is has been
0:35:44 > 0:35:47well-executed at every level means it has generated far more
0:35:47 > 0:35:49than the usual excitement of a new action movie release.
0:35:49 > 0:35:51As one critic said, it's a "story about black lives,
0:35:51 > 0:35:54which matter and are not defined by their pain but instead
0:35:54 > 0:35:55by their glory".
0:35:55 > 0:35:58Well, Evan Narcisse is the writer of 'Rise of Black Panther'
0:35:58 > 0:36:01for Marvel Comics and joins us from Austin in Texas.
0:36:01 > 0:36:04Film journalist Nola Ojomu is with me in the studio.
0:36:04 > 0:36:10Good evening to you, Evan, a lot of people say this is a moment and do
0:36:10 > 0:36:21you agree?It is for sure a moment. I want to correct a little bit,
0:36:21 > 0:36:28technically Blade featuring Wesley Snipes was a marvel superhero
0:36:28 > 0:36:33Snipes was a marvel superhero movie, but Black Panther, this is a moment
0:36:33 > 0:36:38like I have never seen before in my career. I am a pop culture critic as
0:36:38 > 0:36:43well as writing comics and nothing like this has ever happened, it is
0:36:43 > 0:36:48utterly astounding, the excitement around this movie.A lot of this is
0:36:48 > 0:36:53around a black movie not being about victims, it is bigger than that.
0:36:53 > 0:36:59Right. It's not about trauma, it's not about economic
0:36:59 > 0:37:03disenfranchisement, it's not about the legacy of slavery or Jim Crowe
0:37:03 > 0:37:09or any of that stuff. Don't get me wrong, the Black Panther character
0:37:09 > 0:37:13concept very much has to do with colonialism and its effects but it
0:37:13 > 0:37:18is shown in a way that is not central to the conflict. This is
0:37:18 > 0:37:22more about the preservation of culture, a way of life, celebrating
0:37:22 > 0:37:29black excellence and achievement and making black characters on screen
0:37:29 > 0:37:38for more complex in a fictional sense than we've seen maybe ever.
0:37:38 > 0:37:46Are you excited by it?Very, very excited.Tried to put into words, I
0:37:46 > 0:37:49am not an action hero sort of person, what is it that makes this
0:37:49 > 0:37:59so different? Moonlight won the best locks rueda Oscar, a black theme
0:37:59 > 0:38:05song, why is this important?Because it's going to be fun, it's a
0:38:05 > 0:38:08superhero movie. Like Evan was saying, it's not to do with Savary,
0:38:08 > 0:38:16he's cool, he kicks butt, he has all this technology, it is just fun.
0:38:16 > 0:38:25Mike -- might I suggest you do not want the black community to judge
0:38:25 > 0:38:28their worst by the prestige Hollywood restores them in their
0:38:28 > 0:38:33movies because that would be a terrible metric by which you would
0:38:33 > 0:38:39the community, the Hollywood eyes edition of its values.It would be
0:38:39 > 0:38:45horrible but this is not that, this is a fictional country in Africa but
0:38:45 > 0:38:49it is Africa, it is Africans being shown as strong and smart and clever
0:38:49 > 0:38:53and there is not enough of that in mainstream media and that is what is
0:38:53 > 0:38:59exciting. These guys are cool and strong,
0:38:59 > 0:39:05strong, they are lit, as the hashtag says.Black Panther goes back to
0:39:05 > 0:39:091966, a black superhero in comic form back in the 1960s, why did it
0:39:09 > 0:39:16take so long for this movie to come out?I think there are a lot of
0:39:16 > 0:39:22perceptions in Hollywood's and beyond, people who fund movies that
0:39:22 > 0:39:28a black lead piece like this would not perform internationally,
0:39:28 > 0:39:31globally. That it would not do the kind of business that these
0:39:31 > 0:39:34blockbuster movies need to do in order to justify their existence so
0:39:34 > 0:39:41I think there is a lot of that. There is also, the talent pull in
0:39:41 > 0:39:44Hollywood, the decision makers to sign off on these still think the
0:39:44 > 0:39:51very white. There are not a lot of producers who have the pull to make
0:39:51 > 0:39:59something like cabin. The gentleman at Marvel who made this happen is
0:39:59 > 0:40:05black. He is a relative minority in terms of numbers in Hollywood. This
0:40:05 > 0:40:14was clearly a passion project for him.I suppose, we don't have this
0:40:14 > 0:40:17conversation, when its normalised and see more of these kind of films,
0:40:17 > 0:40:21probably not quite as black theme does this, this was almost entirely
0:40:21 > 0:40:26black crew and cast, you would not have to be so racially segmented,
0:40:26 > 0:40:30but is that which you would like to see?I feel this is the start of
0:40:30 > 0:40:36where things are going. Again, like Evan said, we had Blade and then
0:40:36 > 0:40:41there has been such a long gap. I think this is going to do well and
0:40:41 > 0:40:47it will inspire so many new script and stories.And show black
0:40:47 > 0:40:50characters can sell movies.Yes, they can make money and the old
0:40:50 > 0:40:56Hollywood fears are not correct. Thank you both very much.
0:40:56 > 0:40:57That's nearly it for tonight.
0:40:57 > 0:40:58Kirsty will be here tomorrow.
0:40:58 > 0:41:01But before we go, it's the centenary of the death
0:41:01 > 0:41:02of the Austrian symbolist painter, Gustav Klimt.
0:41:02 > 0:41:04To mark the occasion, virtual reality artist
0:41:04 > 0:41:07Frederick Baker has teamed up with Vienna's Museum of Applied Arts
0:41:07 > 0:41:09to take you on an interactive journey through Klimt's work.
0:41:09 > 0:41:12The exhibition opens today so we leave you with a little taster.
0:41:12 > 0:41:20Good night.