0:00:06 > 0:00:14He was a 68-year-old man using an Oxfam villa to invite young
0:00:14 > 0:00:17women to use for sex in a country that had just been through
0:00:17 > 0:00:18a devastating earthquake.
0:00:18 > 0:00:22What bit of that was normal or acceptable?
0:00:22 > 0:00:25It is not normal or acceptable, that is what we said at the time
0:00:25 > 0:00:26and I will say now.
0:00:26 > 0:00:34Tonight...
0:00:35 > 0:00:39The government exists has no tolerance.
0:00:39 > 0:00:42How rife is it within the charity and the sector at large?
0:00:42 > 0:00:45As the Prime Minister orders a full and urgent investigation,
0:00:45 > 0:00:46we'll ask what went wrong.
0:00:46 > 0:00:47Also tonight...
0:00:47 > 0:00:49As Syria's war rumbles on, Newsnight receives fresh footage
0:00:49 > 0:00:56that suggests the Assad regime has returned to chemical warfare.
0:00:56 > 0:01:03It looks like significant chemical weapons attack, without shadow of a
0:01:03 > 0:01:10doubt.And this could well be Sarin? It could well be.
0:01:10 > 0:01:11Raising the Black Flag.
0:01:11 > 0:01:15America's bad boy meets Newsnight's bad boy.
0:01:15 > 0:01:16Henry Rollins meets John Sweeney.
0:01:16 > 0:01:19We're as terrified as you are.
0:01:19 > 0:01:27Um... Do you fancy an arm wrestle?
0:01:30 > 0:01:35Good evening.
0:01:35 > 0:01:38In the last few minutes and apartment but International
0:01:38 > 0:01:41Development has announced it is reviewing work with Oxfam after The
0:01:41 > 0:01:45Times revealed documents which suggested the charity had covered up
0:01:45 > 0:01:50a sexual exploitation charity in Haiti. Three charity workers
0:01:50 > 0:01:53including the Country Director resigned and Paul Morgan dismissed
0:01:53 > 0:01:56after an investigation uncovered various examples of inappropriate
0:01:56 > 0:01:59behaviour, including the use of positives, bullying and intimidation
0:01:59 > 0:02:03at the height of the relief effort following a devastating earthquake
0:02:03 > 0:02:05in 2011.
0:02:05 > 0:02:08Today the former chief executive of Oxfam told this programme
0:02:08 > 0:02:10she was aware of other, earlier cases of sexual exploitation
0:02:10 > 0:02:13by staff members whilst she was in charge of the charity.
0:02:13 > 0:02:16Tonight, questions are being asked about why Oxfam failed to warn other
0:02:16 > 0:02:20aid agencies of the behaviour, as Oxfam admitted it could not
0:02:20 > 0:02:22guarantee the former employees had not taken up other jobs among
0:02:22 > 0:02:30vulnerable people in disaster zones around the world.
0:02:34 > 0:02:36The 2010 earthquake in Port-au-Prince killed 220,000 people
0:02:36 > 0:02:38and left another 1.5 million homeless.
0:02:38 > 0:02:41The international relief rescue was huge and at its very
0:02:41 > 0:02:45centre, the renowned British charity and household name, Oxfam.
0:02:45 > 0:02:48Today an investigation by The Times revealed
0:02:48 > 0:02:53that amidst the devastation and trauma of the quake-ravaged country,
0:02:53 > 0:02:55members of the charity's staff were engaged in sexual exploitation,
0:02:55 > 0:03:00bullying and intimidation, as well as the downloading of pornography.
0:03:00 > 0:03:02Oxfam was made aware of what it called
0:03:02 > 0:03:05a culture of impunity at the
0:03:05 > 0:03:08time and allowed three men to resign, sacking four others for
0:03:08 > 0:03:09gross misconduct.
0:03:09 > 0:03:12The press release issued at the time made no mention
0:03:12 > 0:03:16of sexual misconduct but the confidential report stated
0:03:16 > 0:03:18it could not rule out the possibility that
0:03:18 > 0:03:20the prostitutes were under age.
0:03:20 > 0:03:23One of the men allowed to resign without
0:03:23 > 0:03:29disciplinary action was the country director, Roland Van Hauwermeiren,
0:03:29 > 0:03:32who admitted using prostitutes at the villa rented for him by Oxfam
0:03:32 > 0:03:34with charitable funds.
0:03:34 > 0:03:36The chief executive at the time, Barbara
0:03:36 > 0:03:38Stocking, offered him a dignified exit,
0:03:38 > 0:03:40including a month's pay, to
0:03:40 > 0:03:47avoid repercussions on the charity's work and staff.
0:03:47 > 0:03:49Oxfam's mission statement champions helping
0:03:49 > 0:03:51marginalised women to claim their rights
0:03:51 > 0:03:52and empowering people to
0:03:52 > 0:03:57create a secure future.
0:03:57 > 0:03:59So why were the men involved never publicly
0:03:59 > 0:04:00disciplined?
0:04:00 > 0:04:02Why did the charity allow this perception of a
0:04:02 > 0:04:03cover-up?
0:04:03 > 0:04:06And how can taxpayers be sure that money is being spent by
0:04:06 > 0:04:08organisations with thorough oversight of the actions of their
0:04:08 > 0:04:12staff?
0:04:12 > 0:04:14Before we came on air, I talked to Barbara Stocking,
0:04:14 > 0:04:15Oxfam's former CEO.
0:04:15 > 0:04:18She stood down from the role in 2013.
0:04:18 > 0:04:22I asked her why she hadn't investigated the people involved.
0:04:22 > 0:04:24The first moment I heard back in 2011 we sent
0:04:24 > 0:04:26an investigation team.
0:04:26 > 0:04:29Also, it's not true that it wasn't transparent.
0:04:29 > 0:04:31We put a press release out when the investigation
0:04:31 > 0:04:34team was investigating.
0:04:34 > 0:04:37We put a press release out after that as well.
0:04:37 > 0:04:38Hang on a second.
0:04:38 > 0:04:41The Charity Commission said they're still awaiting the full report
0:04:41 > 0:04:44and the man at the centre of this, your country director,
0:04:44 > 0:04:47Roland van Hauwermeiren, was not even fired.
0:04:47 > 0:04:49Let's take one at a time.
0:04:49 > 0:04:53The Charity Commission said at the time, because we informed
0:04:53 > 0:04:55them about it, reported to them about it, and they said
0:04:55 > 0:04:58that there were no regulatory concerns about it.
0:04:58 > 0:05:02That's what happened at the time.
0:05:02 > 0:05:03We also actually told DfID.
0:05:03 > 0:05:06Why do they say then that they're still awaiting the full report?
0:05:06 > 0:05:08They're still awaiting that report from you.
0:05:08 > 0:05:11I don't know because I'm not still there but at the time
0:05:11 > 0:05:13there was no question that they had said, they were happy
0:05:13 > 0:05:18that the trustees were taking this seriously and dealing with it.
0:05:18 > 0:05:21They were happy that a man hadn't even been fired for having
0:05:21 > 0:05:23exploitative sex with prostitutes in a disaster strewn
0:05:23 > 0:05:25country like Haiti?
0:05:25 > 0:05:27Well, let me talk about that, that's the second
0:05:27 > 0:05:29point of the question.
0:05:29 > 0:05:32The reason, you go in, you investigate.
0:05:32 > 0:05:35The first thing they did was talk to the country director.
0:05:35 > 0:05:40At that time he confessed to, well, his own behaviour at least,
0:05:40 > 0:05:43we were very concerned if I remember right that we thought
0:05:43 > 0:05:46there were more people in this and we wanted to make sure
0:05:46 > 0:05:49we could investigate and get all of that out which is why,
0:05:49 > 0:05:51because he'd already said, I'll resign, I'll go,
0:05:51 > 0:05:53that we said we would do that.
0:05:53 > 0:05:55And that took...
0:05:55 > 0:05:57What?!
0:05:57 > 0:06:01So your country director had admitted to exploitative sexual
0:06:01 > 0:06:05behaviour, predatory behaviour with young women, prostitutes,
0:06:05 > 0:06:08in a country he was meant to be helping and you just thought fine?
0:06:08 > 0:06:09No, of course not.
0:06:09 > 0:06:13You thought we'll let him go and you paid him an extra month.
0:06:13 > 0:06:16Because we wanted him there because what we were afraid
0:06:16 > 0:06:19of was that there were more people there and we didn't immediately want
0:06:19 > 0:06:23that exposed and we wanted to make sure we could get in and also make
0:06:23 > 0:06:25sure there was not any bullying of the people.
0:06:25 > 0:06:28So you used somebody who was basically an offender
0:06:28 > 0:06:30to help you with the investigation?
0:06:30 > 0:06:34He was an offender because he had used prostitutes.
0:06:34 > 0:06:40He was a 68-year-old man using an Oxfam villa to invite young
0:06:40 > 0:06:44women to use for sex in a country that had just been through
0:06:44 > 0:06:47a devastating earthquake.
0:06:47 > 0:06:50What bit of that was normal or acceptable?
0:06:50 > 0:06:53It's not normal or acceptable, that's what we said at the time
0:06:53 > 0:06:54and I will say now.
0:06:54 > 0:06:57That was completely unacceptable which is why we did
0:06:57 > 0:06:59the investigation and why, out of nine people that
0:06:59 > 0:07:00were investigated...
0:07:00 > 0:07:03You literally carried on paying him...
0:07:03 > 0:07:04For one month.
0:07:04 > 0:07:06Yeah, because you cut a deal with him.
0:07:06 > 0:07:09Why would you cut a deal?
0:07:09 > 0:07:12Because we wanted to make sure that we could get the whole lot
0:07:12 > 0:07:15of them dealt with and out of the way when it became clear
0:07:15 > 0:07:18there was a group of men who were doing this.
0:07:18 > 0:07:19Do you know where he works now?
0:07:19 > 0:07:22Do you know where the three others that were fired work?
0:07:22 > 0:07:25Of course I wouldn't, I'm not in Oxfam, I haven't been
0:07:25 > 0:07:26in Oxfam for five years.
0:07:26 > 0:07:28He was 68, I doubt if he's worked at all, frankly.
0:07:28 > 0:07:31There were three others, we don't know where they are.
0:07:31 > 0:07:32We would never...
0:07:32 > 0:07:36Well, they have gone and have to make their own lives,
0:07:36 > 0:07:38we would never give them any reference or anything whatsoever.
0:07:38 > 0:07:41Hang on a second, we don't even know who those people are,
0:07:41 > 0:07:43they have not been identified.
0:07:43 > 0:07:45For all you know they could be working in another aid agency,
0:07:45 > 0:07:49they could be working with young women again or with children.
0:07:49 > 0:07:53What we did quite a lot at that time with all the agencies,
0:07:53 > 0:07:56and being clear, all the agencies, not in Haiti only but in countries
0:07:56 > 0:07:58where there were emergencies, where there were conflicts,
0:07:58 > 0:08:01we will all working and working together to try to make sure that
0:08:01 > 0:08:08actually nobody that we knew was not responsible who had that sort
0:08:08 > 0:08:11of behaviour, would actually come into any other aid agencies.
0:08:11 > 0:08:13That had to be done.
0:08:13 > 0:08:14Actually there are personnel issues...
0:08:14 > 0:08:15I'm confused.
0:08:15 > 0:08:18Do you actually know where these people are now?
0:08:18 > 0:08:19I don't know...
0:08:19 > 0:08:20Do you know that they're not working?
0:08:20 > 0:08:23I would not know because I've been out of Oxfam for five years,
0:08:23 > 0:08:25you would have to ask somebody else that.
0:08:25 > 0:08:29But isn't it extraordinary that you knew about all of this for seven
0:08:29 > 0:08:32years and yet it has only come to light, the kind of allegations...
0:08:32 > 0:08:33No, not at all.
0:08:33 > 0:08:36As I said, we went in and we investigated fully.
0:08:36 > 0:08:39Out of nine people that were investigated, only
0:08:39 > 0:08:40two were exonerated.
0:08:40 > 0:08:43You don't think there's any improper behaviour on the part of Oxfam,
0:08:43 > 0:08:45just to clarify that?
0:08:45 > 0:08:47I don't think so.
0:08:47 > 0:08:50You may have done something different in the past but these
0:08:50 > 0:08:51are very difficult circumstances.
0:08:51 > 0:08:52What do you mean?
0:08:52 > 0:08:53What I mean is, we investigated...
0:08:53 > 0:08:56What I would expect an organisation to do is...
0:08:56 > 0:08:59As you know, these sorts of things are around in all sorts
0:08:59 > 0:09:01of parts of the world.
0:09:01 > 0:09:04What to expect the agency to do is to investigate fully and then
0:09:04 > 0:09:07to actually deal with those people and actually stop them
0:09:07 > 0:09:10working and get them out and all the rest of it.
0:09:10 > 0:09:13That, you know...
0:09:13 > 0:09:16Get them out quietly, carry on paying them if need be, do
0:09:16 > 0:09:18a deal which is what we know about.
0:09:18 > 0:09:21No, no, no, we dismissed four of those as well out of that.
0:09:21 > 0:09:24Do you know what, your mission statement is championing
0:09:24 > 0:09:25equal rights for women.
0:09:25 > 0:09:26Absolutely.
0:09:26 > 0:09:28Helping marginalised women claim their rights.
0:09:28 > 0:09:30Yes, yes.
0:09:30 > 0:09:33So why wouldn't your first instinct be to say, this is shocking,
0:09:33 > 0:09:35we are rooting it out, we're telling the world
0:09:35 > 0:09:37that we've done this.
0:09:37 > 0:09:39We did do.
0:09:39 > 0:09:41We did do.
0:09:41 > 0:09:43As I said, we put out a press release about
0:09:43 > 0:09:44when the investigation went in...
0:09:44 > 0:09:46So you're saying nothing new, nothing new today, nothing
0:09:46 > 0:09:48new about the story at all?
0:09:48 > 0:09:50Only things that come in that we have no idea
0:09:50 > 0:09:53where they come from but at the time but at the time...
0:09:53 > 0:09:56Do you think you treated your country director in the right way,
0:09:56 > 0:09:58letting him resign before he was fired, paying him off,
0:09:58 > 0:10:01yes, only for a month but still letting him do
0:10:01 > 0:10:02a deal on his own terms?
0:10:02 > 0:10:05I don't know, I might now, seven years later and with hindsight,
0:10:05 > 0:10:07do something different but at the time that seemed
0:10:07 > 0:10:11like the right thing to do to make sure that this whole thing got
0:10:11 > 0:10:13closed down as fast as we could possibly do it.
0:10:13 > 0:10:16Was this the first time you ever heard of exploitative sexual
0:10:16 > 0:10:17behaviour going on at Oxfam?
0:10:17 > 0:10:18No.
0:10:18 > 0:10:24No, because, no, I can only think of one or two that come to mind
0:10:24 > 0:10:28but basically we had already agreed that any sign that anybody
0:10:28 > 0:10:30was doing this and there would be an investigation.
0:10:30 > 0:10:33That investigation was noted and went to our trustee
0:10:33 > 0:10:34board once a quarter.
0:10:34 > 0:10:38From 2011...
0:10:38 > 0:10:40But before that.
0:10:40 > 0:10:42Before that you knew that there was sexual
0:10:42 > 0:10:44exploitative behaviour?
0:10:44 > 0:10:48Sexual exploitation was going on, I can't say it is going on,
0:10:48 > 0:10:50was going on, we knew in a lot of places...
0:10:50 > 0:10:53With Oxfam staff.
0:10:53 > 0:10:57With some Oxfam staff who had been investigated over...
0:10:57 > 0:11:02I was there 12 years, I can think of probably one,
0:11:02 > 0:11:04formerly, that I know of that absolutely was dismissed.
0:11:04 > 0:11:07Wouldn't it have been so simple to send out a really clear signal
0:11:07 > 0:11:12by getting your country director fired and investigated by police
0:11:12 > 0:11:16instead of allowing him to do a deal that might allow for more cases
0:11:16 > 0:11:18to come up?
0:11:18 > 0:11:21We took legal advice in Haiti and it was made quite clear
0:11:21 > 0:11:23that the police would not be interested in this.
0:11:23 > 0:11:24Thank you very much.
0:11:24 > 0:11:30Thank you.
0:11:30 > 0:11:36Dame Barbara Stocking. The government is reviewing its work for
0:11:36 > 0:11:41Oxfam in light of these allegations and in a statement, said it
0:11:41 > 0:11:45acknowledged hundreds of Oxfam staff had done no wrong but added the way
0:11:45 > 0:11:49this appalling abuse of vulnerable people was dealt with raises serious
0:11:49 > 0:11:52questions that Oxfam must answer. There is more on their story in The
0:11:52 > 0:11:56Times tomorrow.
0:11:56 > 0:11:59As you heard in that interview, Dame Barbara couldn't say for sure
0:11:59 > 0:12:02that the dismissed staff hadn't gone on to work for other
0:12:02 > 0:12:03aid organisations.
0:12:03 > 0:12:06The Times has discovered that the man at the heart of the story -
0:12:06 > 0:12:09country director Roland van Hauwermeiren - did work
0:12:09 > 0:12:11elsewhere afterwards, in a senior role for a French
0:12:11 > 0:12:15charity at a project in Bangladesh.
0:12:15 > 0:12:19The bosses of that organisation have even said they received positive
0:12:19 > 0:12:21references about Mr van Hauwermeiren from Oxfam.
0:12:21 > 0:12:26Full details are in the Times tomorrow.
0:12:26 > 0:12:31Well joining me now from Nottingham is the MP Andrew Mitchell -
0:12:31 > 0:12:34he was the Development Secretary at the time of the problems
0:12:34 > 0:12:35Oxfam had in Haiti.
0:12:35 > 0:12:37And with me in the studio is Anthony Stewart, chair
0:12:37 > 0:12:39of the Haiti Support Group, which works to improve
0:12:39 > 0:12:43the life of people in Haiti.
0:12:43 > 0:12:47I'll start with Anthony, there is a lot to unpack from what Dame Barbara
0:12:47 > 0:12:53said, first of all that she was aware of cases of sexual
0:12:53 > 0:12:57exploitation by Oxfam staff, even before the 2011 allegations. Was the
0:12:57 > 0:13:07way Oxfam behaved in 2011 with what they discovered the right one?When
0:13:07 > 0:13:13it comes to my reaction for the interview and the statements in 2011
0:13:13 > 0:13:17and today, they are very keen on talking about something that
0:13:17 > 0:13:20happened in the past and they didn't particularly want to talk about
0:13:20 > 0:13:25again today. And they want to keep that in the past but in Haiti there
0:13:25 > 0:13:29is a saying, the giver of the blow forgets but the bearer of the scars
0:13:29 > 0:13:39never does. I feel that to respond to these allegations by removing the
0:13:39 > 0:13:43people in question tends to highlight it as an isolated incident
0:13:43 > 0:13:50but it is not. We do not know for certain that there are other cases
0:13:50 > 0:13:54involved with Oxfam but what we do know is that in Haiti and around the
0:13:54 > 0:14:00world there are multiple cases, too many cases, of exploitation,
0:14:00 > 0:14:08economic bisexual, in the aid organisation...Not just Oxfam,
0:14:08 > 0:14:17right across the sector?I am, I am loathe to say that there must be
0:14:17 > 0:14:21more because we don't have the evidence. Regarding Oxfam. What I
0:14:21 > 0:14:28can say with this is the manner in which Oxfam have responded to it
0:14:28 > 0:14:34suggests, does not suggest a commitment to retain that the
0:14:34 > 0:14:37problem as a whole, rather they wished to leave this in Haiti and in
0:14:37 > 0:14:44the past. For example, the Dame Barbara Stocking suggestion that
0:14:44 > 0:14:53they did not help the authorities... That suggests also a lack of respect
0:14:53 > 0:14:57for Haiti and the rule of law in Haiti.She did not believe that the
0:14:57 > 0:15:04police would be able to act, she saw a country in the middle of an
0:15:04 > 0:15:07earthquake and fundamental chaos. If she thought she did not want to put
0:15:07 > 0:15:13people off from giving, and the best way was to show the perpetrators out
0:15:13 > 0:15:19quietly, do you have any empathy or understanding of that way of acting
0:15:19 > 0:15:26for a charity to protect its main efforts?
0:15:26 > 0:15:32At this moment I would like to point out, as has been pointed out, a lot
0:15:32 > 0:15:34of work goes on by Oxfam and other charities is absolutely vital in
0:15:34 > 0:15:42places like Haiti and elsewhere but in terms of those who did earnestly,
0:15:42 > 0:15:46be it the individual donor or states, would perhaps rather that
0:15:46 > 0:15:53charities such as Oxfam were honest and I think pushing it under the
0:15:53 > 0:15:58carpet suggests that there might be an unwillingness to look their
0:15:58 > 0:16:08responsibility in the face, and in cases such as in aid work...I'm
0:16:08 > 0:16:14going to stop you there to bring in Andrew Mitchell who has been
0:16:14 > 0:16:19listening patiently. That is the sense, shoving under the carpet and
0:16:19 > 0:16:24trying to make it go quiet rather than explaining what happened?This
0:16:24 > 0:16:33is a shudderingly awful tale, parable on every single level. --
0:16:33 > 0:16:37terrible. And eclipse of the fact that Oxfam is one of the most
0:16:37 > 0:16:42brilliant humanitarian organisations in the world. There are thousands
0:16:42 > 0:16:47and thousands of very brave people who work for Oxfam who will be
0:16:47 > 0:16:51utterly distraught and horrified by these stories today, recently I was
0:16:51 > 0:16:57in Yemen where Oxfam as an organisation has probably kept alive
0:16:57 > 0:17:065000 desperate people.Do you think DfID is wrong in terms of whether
0:17:06 > 0:17:09money goes.They must be sure that there is zero tolerance for this
0:17:09 > 0:17:13sort of thing and certain there was public confidence that there is zero
0:17:13 > 0:17:19tolerance. It is important that DfID carries out that task so it can say
0:17:19 > 0:17:22to the taxpayer and the public, we know this money is really well spent
0:17:22 > 0:17:27and the only way to do that is to ensure you have a totally
0:17:27 > 0:17:32transparent exercise now.Were you ever made aware of this kind of
0:17:32 > 0:17:37sexual exploitation amongst charity workers, at Oxfam when you were
0:17:37 > 0:17:40Secretary of State?I don't know whether I knew about this particular
0:17:40 > 0:17:45case, I can't be sure, but there were cases, particularly involving
0:17:45 > 0:17:51the United Nations, where this sort of thing had happened. And in such
0:17:51 > 0:17:54cases I was always very concerned to ensure that the proper procedures
0:17:54 > 0:17:59were followed and that if the police needed to be called in, if there
0:17:59 > 0:18:03were regulatory issues, they were all thoroughly dealt with. On this
0:18:03 > 0:18:09particular case I cannot remember at this remove whether or not I knew
0:18:09 > 0:18:13about it.You don't recall specifically hearing Oxfam?No, I
0:18:13 > 0:18:18don't, but that doesn't mean it did not come up because there were, as I
0:18:18 > 0:18:24say, similar cases with United Nations peacekeeping soldiers which
0:18:24 > 0:18:28was every bit as horrific because of the protection issues involved. And
0:18:28 > 0:18:33on those occasions I certainly did everything I could as a minister to
0:18:33 > 0:18:36ensure they were properly investigated and the people who had
0:18:36 > 0:18:41behaved badly were brought to account.You remembered the UN, you
0:18:41 > 0:18:47would have remembered Oxfam or other British charities if they had come
0:18:47 > 0:18:51up?I think I probably would but I don't want to suggest in any way
0:18:51 > 0:18:55that Oxfam hid it from the department or from me at that time.
0:18:55 > 0:18:59I just can't remember and the point I want to make is that in this
0:18:59 > 0:19:03terrible tale we must not forget that Oxfam is one of the most
0:19:03 > 0:19:07brilliant of the British NGOs and charities which performed
0:19:07 > 0:19:12life-saving work all around the world in the most desperate places,
0:19:12 > 0:19:17utterly brilliantly.If taxpayers or donors, supporters of Oxfam, are
0:19:17 > 0:19:21watching this tonight, they know that DfID is reconsidering, what
0:19:21 > 0:19:30would you urge them to do or think? I would urge them to allow DfID to
0:19:30 > 0:19:33conduct its enquiries, to bring total transparency to this and to
0:19:33 > 0:19:37listen to what they said. I am certain that DfID will discover that
0:19:37 > 0:19:42if there were serious shortcomings in Oxfam's approach, those have been
0:19:42 > 0:19:46properly dealt with and addressed so people can have confidence for the
0:19:46 > 0:19:50future work of Oxfam but above all I would want to draw their attention
0:19:50 > 0:19:53to the utterly brilliant track record of the organisation in the
0:19:53 > 0:19:57past and not allow this terrible episode two: the brilliant work that
0:19:57 > 0:20:02Oxfam is doing all around the world. Thank you very much for joining us.
0:20:02 > 0:20:06This programme has received some horrifying footage
0:20:06 > 0:20:08which suggests that a nerve agent, possibly Sarin, has been used
0:20:08 > 0:20:11against civilians in rebel-held Saraqib in north west Syria.
0:20:11 > 0:20:14The short film, shot last Sunday by hospital staff there,
0:20:14 > 0:20:17shows several people lying on the ground, some
0:20:17 > 0:20:19deeply traumatised and struggling to breathe.
0:20:19 > 0:20:23Seven are later thought to have died, including four young children.
0:20:23 > 0:20:26The exact cause of their suffering has not yet been verified
0:20:26 > 0:20:30but the footage comes in a week when UN investigators announced
0:20:30 > 0:20:33that they are looking into multiple reports that the Syrian forces have
0:20:33 > 0:20:37used chlorine in attacks on at least two rebel-held towns.
0:20:37 > 0:20:40Some chemical weapons experts believe there have been as many
0:20:40 > 0:20:41as ten such attacks.
0:20:41 > 0:20:43We should warn you that Mike Thomson's report contains
0:20:43 > 0:20:45extremely distressing and graphic images from the start.
0:20:45 > 0:20:48Images we don't broadcast lightly but which those hospital staff
0:20:48 > 0:20:56wanted to be shown.
0:20:57 > 0:21:01You can see, he's having great difficulty in breathing.
0:21:01 > 0:21:05British doctor David Nott, who has worked extensively in Syria
0:21:05 > 0:21:08during the current conflict, shows me a shocking video he has
0:21:08 > 0:21:11been sent by a doctor he helped train in rebel-held
0:21:11 > 0:21:17Saraqib in Idlib.
0:21:17 > 0:21:22The gruesome symptoms in front of us, filmed last Sunday,
0:21:22 > 0:21:26seem to indicate some kind of highly toxic chemical attack.
0:21:26 > 0:21:30To try to find out more, we called the doctor
0:21:30 > 0:21:34at the hospital in Saraqib who sent David Nott the video.
0:21:34 > 0:21:37Fearing reprisals against his family, he did not want to be
0:21:37 > 0:21:44filmed, but told me by phone about the symptoms he saw.
0:21:44 > 0:21:48Could they breath?
0:21:48 > 0:21:55What do you think caused this?
0:21:55 > 0:22:03What has happened to the children?
0:22:08 > 0:22:12The doctor went on to tell me that all the patients smelt strongly
0:22:12 > 0:22:14of chlorine but David Nott believes there has to be something even
0:22:14 > 0:22:16more toxic involved, most probably a nerve agent
0:22:16 > 0:22:23such as sarin.
0:22:23 > 0:22:26A lot of these patients that we saw weren't breathing and with chlorine
0:22:26 > 0:22:28you tend to hyperventilate, you tend to try to breath and breath
0:22:28 > 0:22:32to try and cough up all this amount of fluid that is on the lung
0:22:32 > 0:22:35but here I didn't see that.
0:22:35 > 0:22:40I saw lots of patience in severe respiratory distress and also
0:22:40 > 0:22:43respiratory arrest as well and also cardiac arrest, which is not really
0:22:43 > 0:22:51seen in hyper chlorine attacks.
0:22:52 > 0:22:55-- lots of patients.
0:22:55 > 0:22:58In April last year, more than 80 people died in Khan Sheikhoun
0:22:58 > 0:23:05in a chemical attack using nerve agents.
0:23:05 > 0:23:08Declaring that a red line had been crossed,
0:23:08 > 0:23:11US President Donald Trump ordered a strike on the Syrian air force
0:23:11 > 0:23:15base which had launched the assault.
0:23:15 > 0:23:22To prevent and deter the spread and use of deadly chemical weapons.
0:23:22 > 0:23:26Some now believe that chlorine may have been used in last week's
0:23:26 > 0:23:28attacks on Saraqib to help avoid such retaliation by
0:23:28 > 0:23:34disguising the use of sarin.
0:23:34 > 0:23:37First of all, the sarin is used which does the real damage and then,
0:23:37 > 0:23:39seconds or minutes later, chlorine is dropped
0:23:39 > 0:23:43which masks the sarin.
0:23:43 > 0:23:51What the regime have found very successfully from their assault
0:23:53 > 0:23:55on Aleppo in December 2016, is that if you put
0:23:55 > 0:23:57gas on the ground, that sinks into these cellars
0:23:57 > 0:24:00because it's heavier than air, it then forces the civilians,
0:24:00 > 0:24:03who don't have gas masks to protect them, up into the streets
0:24:03 > 0:24:05where they are then susceptible to bombs and bullets.
0:24:05 > 0:24:07Surgeon David Nott, who has worked in many different war zones,
0:24:07 > 0:24:10still finds it hard to watch the video he was sent
0:24:10 > 0:24:15by doctors in Saraqib.
0:24:15 > 0:24:18To see young children dying in front of you with severe
0:24:18 > 0:24:21respiratory problems was really horrible to watch.
0:24:21 > 0:24:24There's people on all fronts who will say this is mocked up,
0:24:24 > 0:24:27this is not real, but I can guarantee you cannot fake
0:24:27 > 0:24:29a three-year-old child to lie on the floor and pretend that he's
0:24:29 > 0:24:31dying of respiratory failure.
0:24:31 > 0:24:37You cannot do that.
0:24:37 > 0:24:40The use of chemical weapons on Saraqib has yet to be officially
0:24:40 > 0:24:44verified though the UN says they have received many similar,
0:24:44 > 0:24:51credible-sounding claims from other doctors elsewhere in Syria
0:24:51 > 0:24:54after a fortnight of intensive air strikes.
0:24:54 > 0:24:57But spokesman Jan Egeland says he doesn't doubt how much the people
0:24:57 > 0:25:01of Syria are suffering.
0:25:01 > 0:25:03My heart is bleeding really for the civilian
0:25:03 > 0:25:11population I feel I failed.
0:25:11 > 0:25:13I think the UN member states have failed.
0:25:13 > 0:25:17The international community has failed the Syrian civilian
0:25:17 > 0:25:20population in their hour of greatest need but of course it's not
0:25:20 > 0:25:26too late to save those who have survived so far.
0:25:26 > 0:25:29Maybe, but time is fast running out and many on the ground worry that
0:25:29 > 0:25:32even if the Saraqib deaths are proved to have been caused
0:25:32 > 0:25:40by sarin, the outside world will continue to sit on its hands.
0:25:49 > 0:25:53Mike Thomson reporting on that footage that hospital staff sent
0:25:53 > 0:25:55into Newsnight.
0:25:56 > 0:25:58Punk rock music brought Henry Rollins to the world,
0:25:58 > 0:26:01but these days the former Black Flag and Rollins Band singer spends
0:26:01 > 0:26:02all his performance time talking, not singing.
0:26:02 > 0:26:05Rollins hasn't fronted a band since about 2006, choosing instead
0:26:05 > 0:26:08spoken word performances.
0:26:08 > 0:26:11So what does a punk of the past make of how those who come
0:26:11 > 0:26:13behind him are channelling their anger these days?
0:26:13 > 0:26:15And as a self-confessed rich, white and well-educated man,
0:26:15 > 0:26:17what has he got left to be angry about?
0:26:17 > 0:26:25We sent our in-house pet punk, John Sweeney, to meet him.
0:26:27 > 0:26:30In my day, punks used to go around with safety
0:26:30 > 0:26:34pins through their noses gobbing at people.
0:26:34 > 0:26:36Henry Rollins was a classier kind of punk.
0:26:36 > 0:26:42Here he is in his pomp.
0:26:42 > 0:26:47My name is Henry Rollins and this is off-road tattoo!
0:26:47 > 0:26:53He also ran at one point a mobile tattoo parlour.
0:26:53 > 0:26:56It didn't catch on.
0:26:56 > 0:27:04I caught up with him in London today.
0:27:06 > 0:27:14As an old school punk rocker, how do you feel about alt-right punks?
0:27:15 > 0:27:21I think, it's just my opinion, I see how easily a young person
0:27:21 > 0:27:23might be taken with an alt-right movement because it
0:27:23 > 0:27:26capitalises on anger, on hurt.
0:27:26 > 0:27:29The black guy looked at me and some guy pushed me in the schoolyard
0:27:29 > 0:27:32and I'm going to get back, and that's how they recruit.
0:27:32 > 0:27:38And I think these young people are easily manipulated.
0:27:38 > 0:27:41Those who seduce them, they know how to work anger
0:27:41 > 0:27:44and ignorance and bring these people into the fold.
0:27:44 > 0:27:45Is there an anger inside you?
0:27:45 > 0:27:49Yeah.
0:27:49 > 0:27:52It gets worse as I get older, but I get better at finding
0:27:52 > 0:27:56places for it to go.
0:27:56 > 0:28:01What do you think of your president?
0:28:01 > 0:28:04He's perhaps the wrongest guy for the job and only once in my life
0:28:04 > 0:28:07have I ever look at an American president and thought
0:28:07 > 0:28:15to myself, I could do a better job than this guy.
0:28:17 > 0:28:19Let's imagine you are Donald Trump's National Security Adviser.
0:28:19 > 0:28:22Trump calls you in to the Oval Office and says, Henry,
0:28:22 > 0:28:24what are we going to do about North Korea?
0:28:24 > 0:28:25You've been there.
0:28:25 > 0:28:26What's your advice?
0:28:26 > 0:28:28My advice would be, Mr President, give me your phone.
0:28:28 > 0:28:34You're never going to tweet about North Korea again.
0:28:34 > 0:28:38Because what you think is tough talk is sure
0:28:38 > 0:28:41Because what you think is tough talk is sure provocation by the time it
0:28:41 > 0:28:43gets to North Korea and it's not
0:28:43 > 0:28:44the way to move forward.
0:28:44 > 0:28:47Here's one thing my tours by Kim, he was pretty impressive,
0:28:47 > 0:28:50for the first three days his English is like very much out of a book.
0:28:50 > 0:28:55So you are from California?
0:28:55 > 0:29:00I'm like, that's right, Kim.
0:29:00 > 0:29:05So it's very like, I learned this in school.
0:29:05 > 0:29:08There's this one British guy who's offended I won't be in a photo
0:29:08 > 0:29:12and every time he comes near me I'm like, man, get away from me,
0:29:12 > 0:29:13because I just can't.
0:29:13 > 0:29:15And so finally Kim steps in front of me, his voice drops
0:29:15 > 0:29:18and in perfect English he says, how does he know you?
0:29:18 > 0:29:21And I realised that he had been playing me the whole time.
0:29:21 > 0:29:24Kind of just, you know, my English, it's not so good.
0:29:24 > 0:29:27His English was great.
0:29:27 > 0:29:34I met him in the breakfast room, I think he likes me.
0:29:34 > 0:29:39The rocket goes up to space the other day.
0:29:39 > 0:29:40Yeah, light relief.
0:29:40 > 0:29:43Playing David Bowie's music.
0:29:43 > 0:29:45Yeah, how great, how classy.
0:29:45 > 0:29:48How did you meet David Bowie?
0:29:48 > 0:29:51I've met David Bowie one time.
0:29:51 > 0:29:54I just stood at attention and went completely still because I didn't
0:29:54 > 0:29:58want to bother him.
0:29:58 > 0:30:01He was like a rare bird, like shh, there he is,
0:30:01 > 0:30:07they come through once a year!
0:30:07 > 0:30:11And I'm like this is all I need, David Bowie walked by me will be
0:30:11 > 0:30:12in my storybook for ever.
0:30:12 > 0:30:15David Bowie is passing from my right to my left and I'm just...
0:30:15 > 0:30:17He stops, points at me and says ah!
0:30:17 > 0:30:22Rollins!
0:30:22 > 0:30:25I go running towards him, my right arm coming out like a lance,
0:30:25 > 0:30:28not knowing what I'll say when I arrive and I think I said...
0:30:28 > 0:30:31He...he...huagh!
0:30:31 > 0:30:35Because I was all gooey inside because I'm quite a fan.
0:30:35 > 0:30:39I must have said, hello, David.
0:30:39 > 0:30:41And immediately he initiates this conversation like we had been
0:30:41 > 0:30:44talking for a few minutes, like it has already been pre-rolled.
0:30:44 > 0:30:47He said, you said something very interesting in an interview
0:30:47 > 0:30:52for a magazine last month and proceeded to quote me
0:30:52 > 0:31:00multiple paragraphs of paraphrasing me back to me.
0:31:00 > 0:31:07I'm a fan who gets recognised by other people.
0:31:08 > 0:31:11But I'm mainly a fan and so when I meet people I admire,
0:31:11 > 0:31:13like musicians and stuff, I have to be very careful
0:31:13 > 0:31:14to remain articulate.
0:31:14 > 0:31:16Except all I want to do is...
0:31:16 > 0:31:17"God, your great!"
0:31:17 > 0:31:19Because those records mean so much to me.
0:31:19 > 0:31:22I have leaned on those records so much.
0:31:22 > 0:31:25Whenever I run into a member of The Damned, I see
0:31:25 > 0:31:27Captain Sensible at some festival, it's like, hello Henry.
0:31:27 > 0:31:30I'm like, that's my name, how do you remember me?!
0:31:30 > 0:31:32And I've known him for, like, 100 years.
0:31:32 > 0:31:36Kind of, sort of.
0:31:36 > 0:31:39And those people mean so much to me but rarely can I have a cogent
0:31:39 > 0:31:41conversation with these people because I'm just in awe.
0:31:41 > 0:31:42Great.
0:31:42 > 0:31:44Do you fancy an arm wrestle?
0:31:44 > 0:31:45No.
0:31:45 > 0:31:47I don't want to have my shoulder pulled out of joint!
0:31:47 > 0:31:50Fair enough!
0:31:50 > 0:31:51Sweeney and Rollins there.
0:31:51 > 0:31:53That's all we have time for tonight.
0:31:53 > 0:31:55Evan is here on Monday.
0:31:55 > 0:32:03Goodnight.