0:00:09 > 0:00:11The first time I got stopped and searched
0:00:11 > 0:00:14I was around 11 years old, 12 years old.
0:00:14 > 0:00:17The police would say it's because there's been robberies
0:00:17 > 0:00:20in the area but they wouldn't tell us a description that we fitted,
0:00:20 > 0:00:22except probably for being black.
0:00:22 > 0:00:24Tonight:
0:00:24 > 0:00:27The views of young black men on what it means to be a target
0:00:27 > 0:00:29of police stop and search.
0:00:29 > 0:00:31So what would you do if you were running the police
0:00:31 > 0:00:34in London, trying to deal with knife crime?
0:00:34 > 0:00:37You might think that stop and search works,
0:00:37 > 0:00:41but is that at the cost of community relations?
0:00:41 > 0:00:43We'll ask the Deputy Mayor for Policing and Crime in London
0:00:43 > 0:00:48whether she thinks stop and search is the right.
0:00:48 > 0:00:50Oxfam - the Charities Commission opens a statutory inquiry
0:00:50 > 0:00:54into allegations of misconduct in Haiti, but are they investigating
0:00:54 > 0:00:57a crime or a cover-up?
0:00:57 > 0:01:00We'll discuss charity transparency.
0:01:00 > 0:01:05And South Africa stands on the brink of a historic change of president.
0:01:05 > 0:01:09Is this a second chance for the country to put
0:01:09 > 0:01:17itself on the right road?
0:01:20 > 0:01:22Hello.
0:01:22 > 0:01:24How do we stop knife crime?
0:01:24 > 0:01:26And what should be the role of police stop
0:01:26 > 0:01:27and search in preventing it?
0:01:27 > 0:01:30It's quite a dilemma, this, in London right now,
0:01:30 > 0:01:34because knife crime in the capital is at a six-year high.
0:01:34 > 0:01:38Last year there were 134 knife murders in the capital,
0:01:38 > 0:01:42and I'm afraid there was another death yesterday afternoon.
0:01:42 > 0:01:47Everybody acknowledges the tragedy of it, but what do we do?
0:01:47 > 0:01:50Now, the Met Commissioner Cressida Dick has said she thinks that more
0:01:50 > 0:01:51stop and search may be useful.
0:01:51 > 0:01:54After all, knife crime rose just as stop and search
0:01:54 > 0:01:55was being scaled back.
0:01:55 > 0:02:00So that's one view.
0:02:00 > 0:02:03But there is a cost to stop and search in the goodwill
0:02:03 > 0:02:06that is lost from the black community who know they are the ones
0:02:06 > 0:02:08who are stopped most often, particularly young black men.
0:02:08 > 0:02:12Before we hear that perspective, take a look
0:02:12 > 0:02:15at some key statistics on this.
0:02:15 > 0:02:19The starkest figure is this - in the last 12 months,
0:02:19 > 0:02:22the chance of being stopped in London was almost five
0:02:22 > 0:02:29times higher for black rather than white men.
0:02:29 > 0:02:31Hence the sense that it is a racially-charged policy.
0:02:31 > 0:02:34But of course the police can say that reflects where the crime is.
0:02:34 > 0:02:39So the crucial piece of data is whether they are stopping more
0:02:39 > 0:02:40innocent black men than white men.
0:02:40 > 0:02:44And there is a small amount of evidence for that.
0:02:44 > 0:02:48In the last 12 months, looking at 15-to-19-year-olds,
0:02:48 > 0:02:5429% of searches led to some follow-up on white men;
0:02:54 > 0:02:5825% did on black men.
0:02:58 > 0:03:01It's not a huge difference but, yes, the searches on black men
0:03:01 > 0:03:04are marginally less fruitful than those on the white,
0:03:04 > 0:03:06which suggests the police don't have the balance quite right
0:03:06 > 0:03:10and are searching too many black men.
0:03:10 > 0:03:15But to stress the dilemma, let's remember that it is young
0:03:15 > 0:03:18black men who need protecting - they were the victims of 29%
0:03:18 > 0:03:22of knife homicides in London last year.
0:03:22 > 0:03:24Well, that's the dry data.
0:03:24 > 0:03:27Hear now what young black men in the capital themselves think.
0:03:27 > 0:03:35Film-maker Sarah O'Connell has been finding out exactly that for us.
0:03:37 > 0:03:42My name is PJ Taylor, I'm 28 years old and I've been stopped and
0:03:42 > 0:03:47searched about eight or nine times. It gets countless after a while,
0:03:47 > 0:03:52it's something that happens. Oh, stop and search today, what
0:03:52 > 0:03:57happened, and then you talk about something else. The first time was
0:03:57 > 0:04:02when I was 14, playing on the estate in Brixton and the police were on
0:04:02 > 0:04:06foot, they came up to us and said they were going to stop and search
0:04:06 > 0:04:10us. We had to stand up against the wall and they threatened us about
0:04:10 > 0:04:17running away. There was no level of respect, we just stood there,
0:04:17 > 0:04:23watched each other gets urged and emptied the pockets, getting
0:04:23 > 0:04:27frisked, front and behind, top to bottom.
0:04:30 > 0:04:35Nothing was explained to us, they just done it. Like I said, we were
0:04:35 > 0:04:4114 years old, we were just playing out. How I felt at the time, scared,
0:04:41 > 0:04:44hoping I don't get in trouble with my mum because I want to play
0:04:44 > 0:04:52tomorrow after school.My
0:04:54 > 0:04:56tomorrow after school.My name is Shanin Omara, I'm 32 and have been
0:04:56 > 0:05:01stopped and searched at least 20 times in my life. They start by
0:05:01 > 0:05:05saying that they've had lots of incidents in this area and I've
0:05:05 > 0:05:10heard that over and over in my life. The first time they stop you they
0:05:10 > 0:05:13tried the good cop, bad cop approach where one of them will try and be
0:05:13 > 0:05:19the more friendly version saying, OK, we're going to be going to do
0:05:19 > 0:05:23this, this kind of crime is happening in the area and you start
0:05:23 > 0:05:28questioning yourself. What was I doing, where am I going? Why do I
0:05:28 > 0:05:35need to tell you what I'm doing?
0:05:35 > 0:05:38need to tell you what I'm doing?I am 25 and I've been stopped and
0:05:38 > 0:05:43searched so many times I can't remember how many. The first time I
0:05:43 > 0:05:49was around 11, 12 years old. A lot of The Times, when I was stopped and
0:05:49 > 0:05:52searched as a child, the police would say it's because there's been
0:05:52 > 0:05:58robberies in the area but they wouldn't tell us a description that
0:05:58 > 0:06:03we fitted, except for probably being black and wearing urban clothes.
0:06:03 > 0:06:08There's times when they would just harass us. Strip search in the back
0:06:08 > 0:06:15of the van, touching certain places that they're not really meant to,
0:06:15 > 0:06:21legally, I understand, they aren't legally allowed to do. They used to
0:06:21 > 0:06:25really take advantage of our lack of knowledge of the law and a lot of us
0:06:25 > 0:06:30thought that because their police, they can do anything they want.My
0:06:30 > 0:06:33name is Lamar Jennings McKenzie, I've been stopped and searched once,
0:06:33 > 0:06:41when I was 13. Me and my friend was walking down the street. An
0:06:41 > 0:06:45undercover officer, who wasn't wearing any clothing that showed he
0:06:45 > 0:06:51was an officer, grabbed me. At the time I thought it was kidnappers so
0:06:51 > 0:06:59I was really scared for my friend. I now know that... You're meant to
0:06:59 > 0:07:05show your permit, to let us know you or the police and you are going to
0:07:05 > 0:07:10do a stop and search.My name is Junior, I am 24 and I've been
0:07:10 > 0:07:19stopped and searched over 400 times, even today they still use the same
0:07:19 > 0:07:22language, robberies, you match the description, that's their reason,
0:07:22 > 0:07:25basically. When they target you from young and you done so much when you
0:07:25 > 0:07:31were young, they don't want to let it go. They always try and see your
0:07:31 > 0:07:39movements can see where you -- watch you. You're more likely to be
0:07:39 > 0:07:42stopped and searched if you were a tracksuit because they think
0:07:42 > 0:07:46everybody wearing one is a drug dealer. So they target that, that's
0:07:46 > 0:07:52my opinion.Generally the young people I work with, identify and
0:07:52 > 0:07:57they don't trust the police. Even when it's mostly the males who are
0:07:57 > 0:08:01getting stopped and searched, the girls will tell me about how they
0:08:01 > 0:08:06see their boyfriends or brothers etc, siblings being stopped.Do I
0:08:06 > 0:08:11have faith in the police? Now I'm going to say yeah, I do have faith
0:08:11 > 0:08:19in the police because not all police are... Insert aggressive word here,
0:08:19 > 0:08:24but they are actually doing their jobs and they are cool ones and
0:08:24 > 0:08:27know-how to deal with it but a lot of officers are trained on dealing
0:08:27 > 0:08:32with human beings. You have to respect that they are doing their
0:08:32 > 0:08:38job but there's a way you do your job and most of them that are put
0:08:38 > 0:08:42out to do the stop and searches, are doing their jobs correctly. You have
0:08:42 > 0:08:48two come correct.Personally I don't like the police but there's good
0:08:48 > 0:08:52police out there, good ones, bad ones, corrupted ones. A lot of them
0:08:52 > 0:08:56are corrupted, which is why they have a bad name because they do a
0:08:56 > 0:08:59lot of things behind closed doors that is not in the media. I've been
0:08:59 > 0:09:04a victim of police brutality, they put me in a van and punched me up.
0:09:04 > 0:09:12The police are high up and being on the streets, making that accusation,
0:09:12 > 0:09:17you are no one. You tell me how it's meant to change.I don't know where
0:09:17 > 0:09:22they get it from but in their mind, as soon as they see a black man or
0:09:22 > 0:09:27black boy they think he's a criminal, he's going to hurt me, but
0:09:27 > 0:09:31somebody, so they start defending themselves against something they
0:09:31 > 0:09:34don't need to defend themselves from. We aren't going to hurt you,
0:09:34 > 0:09:40we're just trying to get on with our lives, trying to get home the same
0:09:40 > 0:09:44way you are.Every time I see the police I get an uncomfortable
0:09:44 > 0:09:48feeling. Never comfortable with the uniform, the car, just not
0:09:48 > 0:09:53comfortable. I just know that they aren't here to protect and me, they
0:09:53 > 0:09:59aren't here to work for me, they have no interest in me. If the
0:09:59 > 0:10:02police officers are wearing body cameras and they are active, then
0:10:02 > 0:10:08they can't turn them on or off, then I'd feel a bit safer because right
0:10:08 > 0:10:11now the police can control their own cameras though if they really want
0:10:11 > 0:10:16to do something then it doesn't have to be filmed. I'm just hoping my
0:10:16 > 0:10:21phone has got a battery and something that can maybe protect me.
0:10:21 > 0:10:29I can go live and they may not be able to do as much. Just me on the
0:10:29 > 0:10:35roads, if they brutalise me and I'm saying this officer done this, in
0:10:35 > 0:10:38the court of law, without camera evidence, his Word is going to be
0:10:38 > 0:10:45taken over mine. It can sometimes turn out to be horrific, the
0:10:45 > 0:10:48outcomes. There was a little boy called Tyrrell Hatton his picture
0:10:48 > 0:11:01went viral on the Internet -- called Thai rail -- called Terrell. He may
0:11:01 > 0:11:04be on medication for the rest of his life.
0:11:07 > 0:11:13What there needs to be, there needs to be more projects to give the
0:11:13 > 0:11:16people, youth, ambition. If you're not going to play sport or music
0:11:16 > 0:11:23then is looking less hopeful you -- hope for you. But there is so much
0:11:23 > 0:11:29more than that.Investing in their youth, that is the key, rather than
0:11:29 > 0:11:33just random stop and search. Stop and search itself doesn't deal with
0:11:33 > 0:11:38the issue of knife crime because knife crime is a mentality issue.
0:11:38 > 0:11:42Nothing is going to work to be honest.There must be something?No,
0:11:42 > 0:11:54I'm trying to think. I don't think. I'm done, I'm done.
0:11:54 > 0:11:57The film was made by Sarah O'Connell for us.
0:11:57 > 0:12:00So let's hear from the other side.
0:12:00 > 0:12:05Sophie Lindon is London's Deputy Mayor for Policing and Crime.
0:12:05 > 0:12:09Good evening, what's your reaction to listening to those voices? Do you
0:12:09 > 0:12:16hear them?I've heard them many times in the time I've worked on the
0:12:16 > 0:12:19police and crime and when I hear young men talking about stop and
0:12:19 > 0:12:23search and the lack of trust in the police it is concerning because the
0:12:23 > 0:12:27police are there for them, to keep them safe. As we've seen from the
0:12:27 > 0:12:32statistics you put up today, many victims of knife crime are young
0:12:32 > 0:12:36black men and their families and communities.What was striking is
0:12:36 > 0:12:41that they had quite nuanced views of the police, it wasn't simple or all
0:12:41 > 0:12:43hostility, they understand there is good and bad everywhere but low
0:12:43 > 0:12:48levels of general trust. Do you think they are actually wrong not to
0:12:48 > 0:12:53trust the police more or are they right to take the view that they do?
0:12:53 > 0:12:56I can understand and I have heard many times as we did on your film
0:12:56 > 0:13:03White sunk young men don't -- why some young men don't trust the
0:13:03 > 0:13:07police but the job of the Metropolitan Police is to get into
0:13:07 > 0:13:09the community so that the young people who find it difficult to
0:13:09 > 0:13:13trust them know that the police out there on their side.There are two
0:13:13 > 0:13:19reasons you might not trust the police, it maybe understandable but
0:13:19 > 0:13:23they are good, but on the other side, you don't trust the police and
0:13:23 > 0:13:29you shouldn't trust the police, I'm wondering if you are right that they
0:13:29 > 0:13:32shouldn't or you sympathise with them?I think they should trust the
0:13:32 > 0:13:35police because they are there to protect them, to get knives off the
0:13:35 > 0:13:41streets, to ensure they can protect them. The reason I talk about
0:13:41 > 0:13:44understanding their concerns is that I've spoken to many young people
0:13:44 > 0:13:47like those in the film who talk about the times they've been stopped
0:13:47 > 0:13:52and searched, the way it was done and how it was ineffective and they
0:13:52 > 0:13:56weren't given proper reasons.You believe them when they say it is
0:13:56 > 0:14:02like that?Absolutely, we know in the past there has been blanket stop
0:14:02 > 0:14:05and search on the streets which has caused community tension. What we're
0:14:05 > 0:14:13talking about with stop and search now is expecting an increase where
0:14:13 > 0:14:21it knife crime is increasing.In particular areas?
0:14:21 > 0:14:25particular areas?Yes, particular areas.When police say that you
0:14:25 > 0:14:29match the description of a suspect of a crime in this area, and I think
0:14:29 > 0:14:34we heard it several times, do you believe that the police say that
0:14:34 > 0:14:38sometimes to justify going after someone? Or the only way they
0:14:38 > 0:14:42resemble the suspect is the colour of their skin.If the police are
0:14:42 > 0:14:47undertaking stop and search and they don't have a good reason, that is
0:14:47 > 0:14:51wrong. It is important to have the right intelligence because as you
0:14:51 > 0:14:54seen tonight, not just in London but across in another Wales, violence
0:14:54 > 0:15:02and knife crime is increasing which is why we have said to communities,
0:15:02 > 0:15:06work with us and give us intelligence so we can target those
0:15:06 > 0:15:11young people and adults who are carrying knives, and for whatever
0:15:11 > 0:15:14reason it is, some of them perpetrating violence and when
0:15:14 > 0:15:21things get out of hand, people get seriously injured or murdered.
0:15:22 > 0:15:26So the contention is, and you and the mayor believe this, stop and
0:15:26 > 0:15:30search does help in the fight against knife crime?It is only one
0:15:30 > 0:15:35of the tools involved in tackling knife crime. One of the enforcement
0:15:35 > 0:15:38powers the police have, and they are doing lots of other work on the
0:15:38 > 0:15:42street and in communities, but that is just one part, enforcement, and
0:15:42 > 0:15:44actually towards the end of your film the young people really did
0:15:44 > 0:15:47start to talk about what needs to be done to tackle knife crime and that
0:15:47 > 0:15:52is absolutely what we're doing from the mayor's office, and the
0:15:52 > 0:15:54Metropolitan Police, putting in place the measures working with
0:15:54 > 0:16:07schools, families and communities, but the real problem, and you picked
0:16:07 > 0:16:09out one figure, £22 million coming out of London. That is just one
0:16:09 > 0:16:12figure. We have money coming out of schools, head of mental health
0:16:12 > 0:16:14services, and only this weekend we saw other survey where headteachers
0:16:14 > 0:16:16were saying they couldn't get the mental health support young people
0:16:16 > 0:16:19need. We know if you really want to tackle knife crime, yes, stop and
0:16:19 > 0:16:22search, effectively and professionally done, but also you
0:16:22 > 0:16:24need to have investment in services that are really going to support
0:16:24 > 0:16:28young people, and that needs the Government to step up and invest.I
0:16:28 > 0:16:33am interested in one thing, though. Scotland I think had no knife deaths
0:16:33 > 0:16:41of young people last year. London was a very different picture. What
0:16:41 > 0:16:46Scotland doing that London isn't doing, and by? Sorry, Scotland,
0:16:46 > 0:16:52going back some years, but why is it working in Scotland and why not in
0:16:52 > 0:16:55London?We are looking at Scotland and have learned the lessons there,
0:16:55 > 0:16:58many of the things as part of that strategy in investing in mental
0:16:58 > 0:17:03health services, putting youth workers into A&E departments, but
0:17:03 > 0:17:07one of the key things they have done in Scotland is invested in services,
0:17:07 > 0:17:11in services for young people, mental health services and work in schools,
0:17:11 > 0:17:18and it really is very difficult to really do that, the wide strategy of
0:17:18 > 0:17:20public health they are doing in Scotland, if we don't have the
0:17:20 > 0:17:24investment from the Government who are cutting the crucial services...
0:17:24 > 0:17:29So your point is it is the central Government cuts, to your budgets,
0:17:29 > 0:17:32that are going to be responsible for the difference between London and
0:17:32 > 0:17:38Scotland in the performance on this really significant measure?So
0:17:38 > 0:17:42central Government cuts to local authority budgets or the NHS
0:17:42 > 0:17:44budgets, obviously 32 local authorities in London, they are
0:17:44 > 0:17:46making it very difficult to effectively tackle knife crime. The
0:17:46 > 0:17:51police can only do so much. As we all know they are the enforcement
0:17:51 > 0:17:58part. We need and we are investing the mayor's office, in new services,
0:17:58 > 0:18:01mental health services, but compared to the money taken out by central
0:18:01 > 0:18:06Government, it just isn't enough. Sophie Linden, thank you very much
0:18:06 > 0:18:07indeed.Thank you.
0:18:07 > 0:18:10The Charity Commission has opened an inquiry into Oxfam this evening
0:18:10 > 0:18:13in the wake of the scandal of misconduct in Haiti -
0:18:13 > 0:18:21a scandal that is not going away.
0:18:23 > 0:18:25The charity's chief executive, Mark Goldring, went to meet
0:18:25 > 0:18:26the International Development Secretary Penny Mordaunt today.
0:18:26 > 0:18:29There was an apology to her, and there was also a resignation.
0:18:29 > 0:18:32Not Mr Goldring himself - he only started at Oxfam in 2013,
0:18:32 > 0:18:34sometime after the misconduct was inadequately dealt with.
0:18:34 > 0:18:39But his deputy resigned today.
0:18:39 > 0:18:42Penny Lawrence was international programmes director at the time
0:18:42 > 0:18:44and said she was ashamed of what had been exposed.
0:18:44 > 0:18:45What about Oxfam's foot soldiers, though?
0:18:45 > 0:18:47And its customers?
0:18:47 > 0:18:48Here are some voices from Reading.
0:18:48 > 0:18:51It sounds like bad behaviour of a few people, but charities
0:18:51 > 0:18:53generally do a lot of good work, I think.
0:18:53 > 0:18:59Yeah, it wouldn't put me off.
0:18:59 > 0:19:01I'm long-term unemployed due to ill-health, and I'm grateful
0:19:01 > 0:19:03for being able to volunteer for charities as well.
0:19:03 > 0:19:06I mean, I like the idea that I'm contributing towards something
0:19:06 > 0:19:09which hopefully does a lot of good.
0:19:09 > 0:19:12Do know what I mean, they're making out they're whiter
0:19:12 > 0:19:14than white, doing nice jobs, getting a nice wage packet,
0:19:14 > 0:19:17and they're just taking the Mickey out of everyone that puts
0:19:17 > 0:19:19all the money in the bucket, aren't they?
0:19:19 > 0:19:21So really they should go to court, shouldn't they?
0:19:21 > 0:19:23Using the Oxfam shop, or donating, as I've just done,
0:19:23 > 0:19:26it wouldn't make me feel any different to do that,
0:19:26 > 0:19:28but if I was going to give substantial amounts of money
0:19:28 > 0:19:31I would probably think more carefully about what I'm
0:19:31 > 0:19:33putting my money into, and asking a few more questions
0:19:33 > 0:19:35about what it is they're doing and where that money
0:19:35 > 0:19:37is being invested.
0:19:37 > 0:19:39If people are going there they should be doing what they're
0:19:39 > 0:19:41meant to, not just...
0:19:41 > 0:19:42They're not on holiday, are they?
0:19:42 > 0:19:44Somebody in a position of, you know, responsibility,
0:19:44 > 0:19:47and a position of power, who is actually going out
0:19:47 > 0:19:49there to help, you know, deal with a crisis, shouldn't be
0:19:49 > 0:19:52using and taking advantage of those who are obviously
0:19:52 > 0:19:53being made homeless, being made vulnerable, have
0:19:53 > 0:19:54potentially lost family members.
0:19:54 > 0:19:56You know, it's just taking advantage.
0:19:56 > 0:20:04It's not very nice at all.
0:20:12 > 0:20:13Some voices from Reading there.
0:20:13 > 0:20:16In fairness to Oxfam, it is not alone in having failed to deal
0:20:16 > 0:20:18with sexual misconduct properly.
0:20:18 > 0:20:21In fact, it's not easy to think of an organisation that has dealt
0:20:21 > 0:20:29with a scandal of that kind very well.
0:20:32 > 0:20:35Something seems to get in the way of full openness and transparency.
0:20:35 > 0:20:37Penny Lawrence, the Oxfam deputy director who resigned today,
0:20:37 > 0:20:39says in her biography on the charity's website,
0:20:39 > 0:20:41"I am a passionate advocate of women's rights."
0:20:41 > 0:20:42There is no reason to disbelieve that,
0:20:42 > 0:20:44but clearly something inhibited her publicly calling out
0:20:44 > 0:20:46bad behaviour towards women in her own organisation.
0:20:46 > 0:20:50So let's think about transparency - why it is so hard to be open,
0:20:50 > 0:20:51and how far it should be expected?
0:20:51 > 0:20:53I'm joined by crisis management consultant
0:20:53 > 0:20:56Robin Swinbank, and founder of the Charities Advisory
0:20:56 > 0:20:59Trust, Dame Hilary Blume.
0:20:59 > 0:21:03A very good evening to you both. Hilary Blume, why do you think
0:21:03 > 0:21:07people find it so hard to be transparent? They haven't done
0:21:07 > 0:21:10anything wrong, the people in headquarters. Why don't they just
0:21:10 > 0:21:16want to quieten -- why do they want to quieten it all down and not
0:21:16 > 0:21:20exposed to people like the regulator what has been going on?Are not as
0:21:20 > 0:21:24complacent as you about it. I think they should be ashamed of themselves
0:21:24 > 0:21:28-- I am not as complacent. The problem we are talking about,
0:21:28 > 0:21:32transparency, it is not what the problem is. The problem really is
0:21:32 > 0:21:37what was Oxfam doing sending people from Western Europe into a situation
0:21:37 > 0:21:41where the didn't have... Nobody had any control over them, they were
0:21:41 > 0:21:47answerable to nobody, and they were having an appalling time in the
0:21:47 > 0:21:52sense that they weren't helping the people, and they brought the whole
0:21:52 > 0:21:56upper and into disrepute. Now, if you see your charity as an operation
0:21:56 > 0:22:01to raise money, and you think that what you are doing is about money,
0:22:01 > 0:22:05then you would want to keep very quiet about it. What we should be
0:22:05 > 0:22:11talking about is why they were sending people from outside with no
0:22:11 > 0:22:14democratic control over them, why were they doing that in the first
0:22:14 > 0:22:19place?You really raising a very big point going much wider than sexual
0:22:19 > 0:22:24misconduct at Oxfam, which is the whole model of aid often as you send
0:22:24 > 0:22:27foreigners in to try and help the locals, that is what aid mostly is,
0:22:27 > 0:22:33isn't it? You like that is how it was in 1950. I don't think we should
0:22:33 > 0:22:39proceed on the same basis --yes, that is how it was in 1950. When
0:22:39 > 0:22:42Ghana became independent there were not that many graduates in the
0:22:42 > 0:22:45country but now we are watching their doctors and nurses, so there
0:22:45 > 0:22:49are people there who are qualified and the real problem is there is
0:22:49 > 0:22:53nobody controlling these outside organisations.We go in not really
0:22:53 > 0:22:58accountable to government...Yes, who are they accountable to?Robin
0:22:58 > 0:23:01Swinbank, I am interested in this issue of transparency, to get back
0:23:01 > 0:23:05to that. What do you think the obstacle is? So often, you think,
0:23:05 > 0:23:09why did you do that? It was obviously going to come out at some
0:23:09 > 0:23:13point.I think is the time pressure involved and being able to
0:23:13 > 0:23:16articulate your story from your prospective in a very brief and
0:23:16 > 0:23:20clear way. You are under immense under immense pressure, immense
0:23:20 > 0:23:24scrutiny, and you are likely to get a kicking from your key
0:23:24 > 0:23:31stakeholders, the media, the public, the politicians.
0:23:31 > 0:23:37But is it not possible to look good? You have to sanction this conduct
0:23:37 > 0:23:41scandal and one of your projects... You see, we have on this, uncovered
0:23:41 > 0:23:45it and we have dealt with it. Does that leave everybody feeling very
0:23:45 > 0:23:48queasy or do they think, it is an efficient organisation? We know that
0:23:48 > 0:23:52things go wrong in organisations all the time. We are not embarrassed to
0:23:52 > 0:23:55say that things have gone wrong.I think the general public or of that
0:23:55 > 0:24:00view, that things can be forgiven, but in the media, with the story
0:24:00 > 0:24:05breaking,
0:24:09 > 0:24:11breaking, something has gone wrong, and you are going to be judged for
0:24:11 > 0:24:14the thing that has gone wrong. It is how you move forward from that
0:24:14 > 0:24:17position, how you defend it and how you articulate it in a way that is
0:24:17 > 0:24:20convincing in a short space of time, and that is very challenging from a
0:24:20 > 0:24:22management perspective.Is it the case that all the other aid
0:24:22 > 0:24:24charities, with models very similar to Oxfam's, they must be looking
0:24:24 > 0:24:30through their back catalogue and saying, OMG, what have we got?I
0:24:30 > 0:24:34don't think they will look through it.Whistle-blower might now bring
0:24:34 > 0:24:38it forward and you will look much better to have exposed it yourself
0:24:38 > 0:24:41than to let someone asked...I just think you will look terrible doing
0:24:41 > 0:24:46it, and I think it is intrinsic, particularly in disaster situations,
0:24:46 > 0:24:52that you will get these abuses, because think about it. People have
0:24:52 > 0:24:56nothing. Somebody comes in, and they've got food and they've got
0:24:56 > 0:25:00supplies, and they've got possibilities for you. And you have
0:25:00 > 0:25:05three hungry children at home, and you're still quite pretty. Won't you
0:25:05 > 0:25:08therefore expose yourself and try to get the best for your children? It
0:25:08 > 0:25:14puts you in a terrible position, and the real problem is that so much of
0:25:14 > 0:25:19this parachuting people into the situations makes it difficult. If
0:25:19 > 0:25:25you gave it to the local corrupt organisations, at least the public
0:25:25 > 0:25:29there would know that they were there...It is a fascinating
0:25:29 > 0:25:34argument.They would have to have, they would have some control over
0:25:34 > 0:25:40them. One of the most interesting examples of aid is that in an
0:25:40 > 0:25:43African country, and I wish I could remember which one, they put up
0:25:43 > 0:25:45signs on the schools saying this school gets this amount of money
0:25:45 > 0:25:49from the government, and it was a real revelation to the people, and
0:25:49 > 0:25:53they said, OK, that is enough for more teachers and why haven't we got
0:25:53 > 0:25:58the textbooks? If you give people information they have some power.
0:25:58 > 0:26:02Well, transparency was our original topic and you are making the point
0:26:02 > 0:26:05more general than that. Robin Swinbank, what is your advice to all
0:26:05 > 0:26:10the other charities now? Well, I think it is a collective
0:26:10 > 0:26:14problem, because it will damage the voluntary sector, undoubtedly.
0:26:14 > 0:26:19Confidence will be damaged in the giving aspect of that. People will
0:26:19 > 0:26:24be wary of it.You have given advice on crisis management, with handling
0:26:24 > 0:26:31these things. What is the sort of goal to advise at this point?It is
0:26:31 > 0:26:34absolutely to have the position that the crisis is both a threat and an
0:26:34 > 0:26:38opportunity and the vision must be to be in a better place at the end
0:26:38 > 0:26:42of it than you were before the crisis unfolded.I don't see the
0:26:42 > 0:26:47opportunity. Do you mean to sort out your safeguarding?Absolutely, to
0:26:47 > 0:26:51sort out how you are structured, what your policies and procedures
0:26:51 > 0:26:54are, how robust the art, and how will you communicate your beliefs
0:26:54 > 0:27:02and your values to all you stay called as -- how robust they are.
0:27:02 > 0:27:07Very briefly.There has been a further development in that Helen
0:27:07 > 0:27:10Evans, who was actually in charge of monitoring these events, has just
0:27:10 > 0:27:16spoken out and said, all her approaches were ignored by Oxfam. I
0:27:16 > 0:27:20think that one is a hard one to overcome.This is obviously going to
0:27:20 > 0:27:25run on for days. Thank you both very much.Thank you.Now, we will take a
0:27:25 > 0:27:31pause.
0:27:32 > 0:27:36pause. For Viewsnight. Polly has her say about workers' writes in the
0:27:36 > 0:27:43so-called gig economy.
0:29:22 > 0:29:29That was poorly's Viewsnight there.
0:29:29 > 0:29:30That was Polly's Viewsnight there.
0:29:30 > 0:29:33South Africa really is on the cusp of regime change
0:29:33 > 0:29:34of a significant kind.
0:29:34 > 0:29:35Jacob Zuma is on the way out.
0:29:35 > 0:29:38According to the broadscaster SABC, he has been given
0:29:38 > 0:29:3948 hours to resign.
0:29:39 > 0:29:42For the best part of a week now, he's been clinging on.
0:29:42 > 0:29:44His heir apparent, Cyril Ramaphosa, has spent days trying
0:29:44 > 0:29:45to persuade him to stand aside.
0:29:45 > 0:29:53That didn't seem to work, so today, it was the ANC's National Executive
0:29:53 > 0:29:55Committee's turn - that met for six hours,
0:29:55 > 0:29:57but it didn't quite agree to dislodge him.
0:29:57 > 0:30:00But everyone now assumes he will be deposed, and South Africa will get
0:30:00 > 0:30:06a second chance to launch itself as a well-run African country.
0:30:06 > 0:30:08For quite a few years now there has been popular
0:30:08 > 0:30:13discontent at President Zuma.
0:30:13 > 0:30:15Here, as long as go as 2013, he was being booed at
0:30:15 > 0:30:16Nelson Mandela's memorial service.
0:30:16 > 0:30:21A sense that the man was better at looking
0:30:21 > 0:30:23after himself than his country.
0:30:23 > 0:30:25He became president in 2009 after rising to the top
0:30:25 > 0:30:29of the ANC two years before.
0:30:29 > 0:30:31You could just dismiss him as a bad president - that can
0:30:31 > 0:30:32happen in any country.
0:30:32 > 0:30:38I, Jacob...
0:30:38 > 0:30:41But there have to be big questions for the ANC,
0:30:41 > 0:30:44which selected Zuma, despite some massive questions
0:30:44 > 0:30:46that predated his rise to president of the party.
0:30:46 > 0:30:47He was charged with raping an HIV-positive
0:30:47 > 0:30:51family friend in 2005.
0:30:51 > 0:30:54Although he was acquitted, he told the court that in order
0:30:54 > 0:30:56to avoid catching HIV he had showered, a claim
0:30:56 > 0:30:59that was much derided.
0:30:59 > 0:31:02But more significantly, Mr Zuma had been deputy president
0:31:02 > 0:31:04under President Thabo Mbeki but was sacked on allegations
0:31:04 > 0:31:08of money-laundering and racketeer.
0:31:08 > 0:31:11It would be best to release honourable Jacob Zuma
0:31:11 > 0:31:13from his responsibilities as deputy president of the republic
0:31:13 > 0:31:14and member of the Cabinet.
0:31:14 > 0:31:22Charges that have refused to go away.
0:31:22 > 0:31:25Was there any due diligence by the ANC at the time?
0:31:25 > 0:31:26Did anyone care?
0:31:26 > 0:31:29Well, there's no doubt Mr Zuma has enjoyed strong support among some
0:31:29 > 0:31:31members of the public, particularly in his home
0:31:31 > 0:31:33province of KwaZulu-Natal.
0:31:33 > 0:31:35He has a populist appeal.
0:31:35 > 0:31:41From a poor start, he portrays himself as a man of the people.
0:31:41 > 0:31:45When the going was getting tough last year he made a populist gesture
0:31:45 > 0:31:49of suggesting white land might be expropriated without compensation.
0:31:49 > 0:31:54For him, the future may involve some legal problems.
0:31:54 > 0:31:57For South Africa, the question is whether the ANC has
0:31:57 > 0:32:00learned its lesson and will pick more carefully in future.
0:32:00 > 0:32:03For now, everyone thinks Zuma's replacement, Cyril Ramaphosa,
0:32:03 > 0:32:05is a big improvement, but can he really turn
0:32:05 > 0:32:11the country round?
0:32:11 > 0:32:17Verashni Pillay is head of digital at the Johannesburg
0:32:17 > 0:32:19radio station Power FM, she's the former Editor-in-Chief
0:32:19 > 0:32:21of HuffPost South Africa and the Mail & Guardian.
0:32:21 > 0:32:29I asked her whether President Jacob Zuma could expect a soft deal
0:32:30 > 0:32:33similar to the one Robert Mugabe got in order to get him out of office?
0:32:33 > 0:32:36This is the raging debate happening right now in South Africa,
0:32:36 > 0:32:39and I have to say that South Africans are a lot less
0:32:39 > 0:32:41forgiving than Zimbabweans appear to be around their president leaving
0:32:41 > 0:32:43office.
0:32:43 > 0:32:50So right now there's all sorts of speculation in the media around
0:32:50 > 0:32:54the kind of deal that is being cut within the ruling party to get
0:32:54 > 0:32:55the president to leave.
0:32:55 > 0:32:57From what the reports are saying and the sources that
0:32:57 > 0:33:00are sort of leaking, it seems he is very reluctant to go
0:33:00 > 0:33:01and wants some sort of protection.
0:33:01 > 0:33:04However, it would make the new president very unpopular
0:33:04 > 0:33:07to give him any kind of blanket amnesty, so while there have been
0:33:07 > 0:33:09reports of various deals nothing has been confirmed.
0:33:09 > 0:33:12However, if the opposition party takes it into their own hands to do
0:33:12 > 0:33:15some sort of vote of no-confidence in the president, and are finally
0:33:15 > 0:33:18successful with that, you know, he has no bargaining power,
0:33:18 > 0:33:22and will leave with no benefits for the rest of his life.
0:33:22 > 0:33:24He has a terrible press here and he has a pretty bad
0:33:24 > 0:33:28press in South Africa.
0:33:28 > 0:33:32I just wonder if you could explain his popular appeal
0:33:32 > 0:33:35because there are plenty of people who rather love Jacob Zuma, right?
0:33:35 > 0:33:37I think especially at the beginning of his presidency
0:33:37 > 0:33:39he was very well loved.
0:33:39 > 0:33:42I mean, he managed to do the unthinkable and get
0:33:42 > 0:33:44a sitting president recalled.
0:33:44 > 0:33:46So he was very popular in the beginning.
0:33:46 > 0:33:48And he particularly had a very grass-roots appeal,
0:33:48 > 0:33:53particularly in his native province, KwaZulu-Natal, and it's said that
0:33:53 > 0:33:56within the rural areas he was considered very popular too,
0:33:56 > 0:34:00because the previous president, Thabo Mbeki, was seen as very
0:34:00 > 0:34:04detached and very sort of intellectual and cold,
0:34:04 > 0:34:07and Zuma was seen as a friendly, charming person.
0:34:07 > 0:34:09He is said to be very charming in person.
0:34:09 > 0:34:12But he has frittered away that goodwill and it's very hard to find
0:34:12 > 0:34:16real supporters of Zuma, even in his former strongholds
0:34:16 > 0:34:17it's very difficult to find supporters now.
0:34:17 > 0:34:21There were a lot of signs of the things that have turned out
0:34:21 > 0:34:22to be problematic about Zuma.
0:34:22 > 0:34:27Some of those signs were there before the man took office
0:34:27 > 0:34:30and I just wonder whether, you know, everyone loves
0:34:30 > 0:34:33Cyril Ramaphosa, but do you think, looking ahead, that the ANC
0:34:33 > 0:34:36will pick candidates responsibly?
0:34:36 > 0:34:40If they get a second chance.
0:34:40 > 0:34:47I mean, let's be honest, the ANC's fate at the polls is dire.
0:34:47 > 0:34:49Their share of the vote has been rapidly declining
0:34:49 > 0:34:51over every election.
0:34:51 > 0:34:54We have very trustworthy elections.
0:34:54 > 0:34:57Hopefully they will take this as a lesson and clean-up their house
0:34:57 > 0:35:00in the party so people will give them the chance when it
0:35:00 > 0:35:02comes around again.
0:35:02 > 0:35:05How excited are you by a change in administration?
0:35:05 > 0:35:11It seems like quite a significant change of direction.
0:35:11 > 0:35:14For me, purely from a political point of view, what is happening
0:35:14 > 0:35:15right now is a spring.
0:35:15 > 0:35:19There is no other way to put it, everyone is calling it an absolute
0:35:19 > 0:35:20spring that's happening in South Africa.
0:35:20 > 0:35:23Not only do we have new leadership but we have strong words and action
0:35:23 > 0:35:24being taken around accountability.
0:35:24 > 0:35:26Not all just emanating from Ramaphosa.
0:35:26 > 0:35:30Coming from our parliament, our civil society, everyone has
0:35:30 > 0:35:32really pulled together to say, you know what, we aren't
0:35:32 > 0:35:35going to let it slide, we're demanding accountability.
0:35:35 > 0:35:38All the corrupt deals we've been reading about for years,
0:35:38 > 0:35:40and it's showing we're making a U-turn.
0:35:40 > 0:35:43We were very close to going off the precipice where corruption
0:35:43 > 0:35:45would have become entrenched and I feel like we're coming
0:35:45 > 0:35:47back from that cliff.
0:35:47 > 0:35:54Exciting times, thank you so much, thanks for talking to us.
0:35:55 > 0:35:58We hoped to speak to Peter Hain who is in South Africa at the moment but
0:35:58 > 0:36:04I don't think we can so we may have some time to look at the papers.
0:36:04 > 0:36:08Fascinating how something like the Oxfam crisis escalates, starting on
0:36:08 > 0:36:14Friday in the Times. The Guardian leading on that, Oxfam deputy leader
0:36:14 > 0:36:21quitting. Catching up on today's news. The Guardian saying Oxfam
0:36:21 > 0:36:24could lose 29 million in European funding because of the handling of
0:36:24 > 0:36:31the misconduct scandal. In a column, the Oxfam sex story is effect and so
0:36:31 > 0:36:37is the war on foreign aid. The Daily Telegraph also leading on the
0:36:37 > 0:36:41subject, Oxfam workers offered aid for sex. Whistle-blower claims rape
0:36:41 > 0:36:48overseas and abuse in charity shops were ignored, that was Helen Evans,
0:36:48 > 0:36:52who we heard about, she's a spoken on Channel 4. A full-blown crisis
0:36:52 > 0:36:59for Oxfam. That's it from us. We're going to leave you with the voice of
0:36:59 > 0:37:05Katie Couric on NBC. We all occasionally say stupid things but
0:37:05 > 0:37:10her observations about the Netherlands speed skating team, they
0:37:10 > 0:37:14appear not to be based entirely on fact, much to the amusement of the
0:37:14 > 0:37:24Dutch.
0:37:24 > 0:37:25Next is the Netherlands.
0:37:25 > 0:37:28It's probably not a newsflash to tell you the Dutch are really,
0:37:28 > 0:37:29really good at speed skating.
0:37:29 > 0:37:32All but five of the 110 medals they've won have been
0:37:32 > 0:37:33on the speed skating oval.
0:37:33 > 0:37:36Now, why are they so good, you may be asking yourselves?
0:37:36 > 0:37:38Because skating is an important mode of transportation in a city
0:37:38 > 0:37:40like Amsterdam which sits at sea level.
0:37:40 > 0:37:43As you all know, it has lots of canals which can
0:37:43 > 0:37:44freeze in the winter.
0:37:44 > 0:37:49For as long as those canals have existed,