0:00:10 > 0:00:13The government calls out Russia, blaming the Kremlin for a reckless
0:00:13 > 0:00:15and destructive cyber attack on Ukraine which was designed
0:00:15 > 0:00:16to spread across Europe.
0:00:16 > 0:00:19Are we already engaged in a cyber war with Russia,
0:00:19 > 0:00:23and how dangerous could it get?
0:00:23 > 0:00:29It's deniable, it's semipublic, it includes the publicity. The fact I'm
0:00:29 > 0:00:32speaking about this right now is probably in the interest of the
0:00:32 > 0:00:37attacker because it scares people, so if undermining deterrence and
0:00:37 > 0:00:39it's very difficult to respond to.
0:00:39 > 0:00:41We'll be debating whether the Russian threat
0:00:41 > 0:00:42is real or imagined.
0:00:42 > 0:00:44The FBI was warned that Nikolas Cruz, charged with 17 counts
0:00:44 > 0:00:46of premeditated murder, was potentially a school shooter
0:00:46 > 0:00:48after he left a comment on YouTube.
0:00:48 > 0:00:51He was a member of a white supremacist group.
0:00:51 > 0:00:54The Parkland Florida massacre left 17 dead and many more injured.
0:00:54 > 0:00:57If Cruz was such a threat, why was he able to hide in plain sight
0:00:57 > 0:01:00and wield a deadly semi-automatic assault weapon?
0:01:02 > 0:01:05I'll be joined by two people, each of whom has a personal
0:01:05 > 0:01:08close connection with a massacre, one at Virginia Tech,
0:01:08 > 0:01:10the other Columbine.
0:01:10 > 0:01:12Headlines today screaming the danger of this food and that -
0:01:12 > 0:01:14all the cause of cancer - but is the constant
0:01:14 > 0:01:15bombardment believable?
0:01:15 > 0:01:19We try to separate the science from the static noise.
0:01:19 > 0:01:22And a special preview of a brand new work by the dancer
0:01:22 > 0:01:25and choreographer Akram Khan, the final solo performance
0:01:25 > 0:01:32by the man who invented his own language of dance.
0:01:35 > 0:01:39Good evening.
0:01:39 > 0:01:43The UK government took the unusual step today of directly condemning
0:01:43 > 0:01:46Russia for a cyber attack, publicly blaming the Russian
0:01:46 > 0:01:50government for spreading a virus which swept across Europe last June.
0:01:50 > 0:01:53The so-called Notpetya attack hit companies,
0:01:53 > 0:01:58including British ones, after initially targeting Ukraine.
0:01:58 > 0:02:01This unprecedented public accusation against the Kremlin
0:02:01 > 0:02:04by the government also includes the threat of "imposing
0:02:04 > 0:02:06costs on those who would seek to do us harm."
0:02:06 > 0:02:10You'll remember that this follows last month's irregular
0:02:10 > 0:02:14and apparently unsanctioned statement by the Defence Secretary
0:02:14 > 0:02:17Gavin Williamson that a Russian cyber attack could cause "thousands
0:02:17 > 0:02:19and thousands" of deaths by crippling energy supplies.
0:02:19 > 0:02:21Tomorrow, the annual international security
0:02:21 > 0:02:25conference opens in Munich - a conference that Theresa May
0:02:25 > 0:02:28will be addressing - where the Kremlin will be
0:02:28 > 0:02:30on the radar.
0:02:30 > 0:02:33So is Russian cyber warfare now a clear and present danger to us?
0:02:33 > 0:02:41Here's our Technology Editor, David Grossman.
0:02:44 > 0:02:48Conflict on rush-hour's doorstep. The war in Ukraine is brutal but on
0:02:48 > 0:02:51the.
0:02:51 > 0:02:53However, Russia is doing battle using other means.
0:02:53 > 0:02:57Ukraine and Russia are obviously in a situation that
0:02:57 > 0:03:02can only be described as war and open conflict and the digital
0:03:02 > 0:03:05attack, cyber attack component plays a major role.
0:03:05 > 0:03:07We've seen the boundary, you know, attacking the
0:03:07 > 0:03:11electric grid in the Ukraine.
0:03:11 > 0:03:15We've seen several major attacks there.
0:03:15 > 0:03:17We've seen high powered pieces of attack tools that haven't been
0:03:17 > 0:03:25tested anywhere else.
0:03:27 > 0:03:35The concern is that Ukraine is a test-bed for cyber attacks that
0:03:35 > 0:03:39and US targets later on.
0:03:39 > 0:03:41Nato defence ministers were in Brussels today for a summit,
0:03:41 > 0:03:44trying to deal with a world where the line
0:03:44 > 0:03:49between war and peace is so blurred, partly because attacks are deniable.
0:03:49 > 0:03:52The UK Defence Minister Gavin Williamson though today explicitly
0:03:52 > 0:03:57accused the Russian government of waging cyber war on the West.
0:03:57 > 0:04:04It's no longer about the warfare that
0:04:04 > 0:04:09we'll fight on land, sea and air.
0:04:09 > 0:04:11Increasingly, it's about in cyber and space as well.
0:04:11 > 0:04:14So Nato has to adapt.
0:04:14 > 0:04:18This raid by Ukraine cyber crime unit on a computer company
0:04:18 > 0:04:23last summer was an attempt to shut down a virus called Notpetya.
0:04:23 > 0:04:28The company was an unwitting host but the virus spread around its
0:04:28 > 0:04:32clients shutting down companies all over Europe including in the UK and
0:04:32 > 0:04:40it was this attack that the UK has now specifically blamed Russia four.
0:04:40 > 0:04:42It was an attack that destroyed all data on
0:04:42 > 0:04:4310% of Ukraine's computers.
0:04:43 > 0:04:46Ukraine is a country of 40 million people.
0:04:46 > 0:04:4910% of all its computers were damaged.
0:04:49 > 0:04:54The attack spread extremely quickly, globally, probably cost the
0:04:54 > 0:04:58world economy something beyond £1 billion.
0:04:58 > 0:05:02It was so bad.
0:05:02 > 0:05:09Just to make it real for people, it affected the production of, done is
0:05:09 > 0:05:20for two weeks, it affected shipping of cookies, it nearly broke down
0:05:20 > 0:05:25worldwide shipping. It was huge.
0:05:26 > 0:05:28At the time, many suspected Russia but to
0:05:28 > 0:05:29publicly accuse them of mounting the Notpetya
0:05:29 > 0:05:35attack is, according to
0:05:35 > 0:05:42observers, a significant development.
0:05:42 > 0:05:48The CIA made a similar statement in January and the Ukraine did at the
0:05:48 > 0:05:52time.It's one time to identify the Russian government as a cyber
0:05:52 > 0:05:57aggressor, it is another thing to do something about it. It is unclear
0:05:57 > 0:06:01what the statement today was meant to do, other than set the scene
0:06:01 > 0:06:08ahead of the conference in Brussels, and to send a strong message to
0:06:08 > 0:06:10Moscow. However, there have been many similar messages in recent
0:06:10 > 0:06:15months with no effect. The problem with a threat like this is that it's
0:06:15 > 0:06:20not just about protecting computers and networks, but damage is also
0:06:20 > 0:06:32seen in a country's morale.These can cause a minor harm but they are
0:06:32 > 0:06:34implemented for political attack because they get a significant
0:06:34 > 0:06:39amount of press coverage and therefore have, if you like, a bit
0:06:39 > 0:06:43of a terrorising effect. It's an effective psychological tool, it's
0:06:43 > 0:06:48almost psychological warfare we are looking at here.The ease with which
0:06:48 > 0:06:50a government can use computers to strike its adversaries without
0:06:50 > 0:06:57warning or reckoning makes the world a more tense place. Russia responded
0:06:57 > 0:07:03to the UK's government 's accusation with a predictable denial, the strip
0:07:03 > 0:07:07posted the strong message has been sent and apparently ignored -- the
0:07:07 > 0:07:10supposedly strong message has been sent and apparently ignored.
0:07:10 > 0:07:11David Grossman there.
0:07:11 > 0:07:14We did ask to speak to the Russian Government -
0:07:14 > 0:07:16they didn't give us anyone to interview, but the Russian
0:07:16 > 0:07:20embassy did say that there was no evidence that they held any
0:07:20 > 0:07:21responsibility for the Notpetya cyber attack, and that
0:07:21 > 0:07:23the accusations made by the British Government were part
0:07:23 > 0:07:26of a continuing campaign aimed at the stigmatisation of Russia.
0:07:26 > 0:07:29We also asked the British government under the programme but they
0:07:29 > 0:07:30declined as well.
0:07:30 > 0:07:33Joining me now is Dmitry Linnik, former Head of Radio Russia's London
0:07:33 > 0:07:35bureau, Edward Lucas, journalist and author
0:07:35 > 0:07:38of The New Cold War: Putin's Threat to Russia and the West and,
0:07:38 > 0:07:41from Munich, Laura Galante, a cyber security expert and senior
0:07:41 > 0:07:47fellow at the Atlantic Council international affairs thinktank.
0:07:47 > 0:07:53Good evening to you all. If I could begin with you, Laura, does rusher
0:07:53 > 0:08:00have the capability to do a lot of cyber damage or a lot of minor harm?
0:08:00 > 0:08:06We've seen Russia undertake a variety of different operations from
0:08:06 > 0:08:09standard espionage conducted over cyber operations all the way up to
0:08:09 > 0:08:12critical infrastructure attacks and then the most recent Notpetya
0:08:12 > 0:08:16attack, which focused on the financial sector and then had a lot
0:08:16 > 0:08:20of externalities, which we have just covered. Russia is taking the
0:08:20 > 0:08:24approach of ratcheting up the types of operations they are willing to
0:08:24 > 0:08:27undertake in cyberspace and they've had both the technical and
0:08:27 > 0:08:31psychological component.Let's talk about the technical component. But
0:08:31 > 0:08:38damage can actually do? -- what damage can actually do?Let's take
0:08:38 > 0:08:43the Ukraine example of the power grid going down in 2015 and again in
0:08:43 > 0:08:482016. With both of those operations, large parts of the country's power
0:08:48 > 0:08:52grid went down and black energy, the malware behind this, was traced back
0:08:52 > 0:08:58to likely be Russia military and what's been difficult to see in the
0:08:58 > 0:09:05West in terms of the capability that Russia has here is the lack of 100%
0:09:05 > 0:09:09certainty around how these tools are deployed. And what we are constantly
0:09:09 > 0:09:12faced with is this legalistic tendency that we naturally have in
0:09:12 > 0:09:19the West to want to say, here is the 100% level of factual evidence that
0:09:19 > 0:09:22leads to this. But cyber doesn't lend itself to that type of
0:09:22 > 0:09:26analysis. We can look at the evidence, who is likely to benefit
0:09:26 > 0:09:30from this, what sort of evidence in the malware and the tools is
0:09:30 > 0:09:34available to explain who's behind it and then what was the effect that is
0:09:34 > 0:09:39achieved? With the Ukrainian power grid attacks, the effect was both
0:09:39 > 0:09:42psychological in the Ukraine and also a warning shot to the West to
0:09:42 > 0:09:45say that critical infrastructure, this is something that will be
0:09:45 > 0:09:50targeted.Thank you very much there. Dmitri, if it wasn't rusher, who was
0:09:50 > 0:09:59it?I've no idea. I have no evidence to suggest that Russia didn't do it.
0:09:59 > 0:10:03But I would like evidence as Laura just said to support these very
0:10:03 > 0:10:10serious accusations.But as Laura said, in cyber warfare, that is
0:10:10 > 0:10:14harder to do but the black energy malware was traced back to the
0:10:14 > 0:10:20Russian military?Whether it was or wasn't, I'm not a computer expert,
0:10:20 > 0:10:24but I have read the use of computer experts who disagreed with that. But
0:10:24 > 0:10:31as Laura suggested, on the balance of probabilities, is that how we lob
0:10:31 > 0:10:36accusations at Russia, at the Kremlin, at the country? I don't
0:10:36 > 0:10:41think that's the right way to go about it.Do you think then that the
0:10:41 > 0:10:46British government has been reckless itself then in making that public
0:10:46 > 0:10:49accusation today?Absolutely. I think the British government in
0:10:49 > 0:10:54particular has been accusing Russia over the years of the most
0:10:54 > 0:10:57ridiculous things like Russia is a threat to Nato, a country that
0:10:57 > 0:11:05spends 10% of the Nato budget. Edward Lucas, it plays into the idea
0:11:05 > 0:11:11that we think of Russia in a Cold War context, a pariah and so-so, but
0:11:11 > 0:11:22as Dmitry Sirs and Laura said, there isn't a bout of evidence, it is
0:11:22 > 0:11:29about probability?Not necessarily, no. Estonia had its power crippled
0:11:29 > 0:11:32and a senior executives admitted that it was guys in his office that
0:11:32 > 0:11:38had carried it out. Admittedly, it was a fairly crude attack.It was a
0:11:38 > 0:11:47psychological attack as well?It was, and Putin has made jokes about
0:11:47 > 0:11:51attacks on the American system, saying if it wasn't as it was
0:11:51 > 0:11:57somebody like us. You have to be careful.The contributor in the film
0:11:57 > 0:12:00was saying that even discussing this is the destabilising thing the
0:12:00 > 0:12:10attacker once in setting this off. Is this about flexing muscles?As
0:12:10 > 0:12:15Dmitry rightly pointed out, Russia is a lot weaker than the West when
0:12:15 > 0:12:22the West is united. Russia's main aim is to play divide and rule and
0:12:22 > 0:12:26use what in the jargon is called asymmetric weapons, weapons that a
0:12:26 > 0:12:30weak country can use quite successfully against the strong one
0:12:30 > 0:12:35and cyber is a good example of that. Laura, on the psychological impact
0:12:35 > 0:12:39of this, why would Vladimir Putin want to be seen or even be talked
0:12:39 > 0:12:47about as the aggressor?Putin has two goals here and his primary
0:12:47 > 0:12:51audience is internal, it's domestic. He has two figure out how to keep
0:12:51 > 0:12:56popularity and keep his position. And part of that requires showing
0:12:56 > 0:13:01Russia's strength. If Russia can chip away at Western alliances, as
0:13:01 > 0:13:05Ed is referring to, if it can chip away at the sense that the West is
0:13:05 > 0:13:09the place where freedom of speech and freedom of press have created
0:13:09 > 0:13:14these liberal democracies that RE model, then Putin wins internally.
0:13:14 > 0:13:19And Putin is very aware that the end of the Soviet Union in his mind is
0:13:19 > 0:13:23based on the attraction of the West and in his mind, the false
0:13:23 > 0:13:29attraction of the West. The more he's able to chip away at what the
0:13:29 > 0:13:33West from a Russian population the more his strength will be in showing
0:13:33 > 0:13:41Russia's ability to go toe to toe with the West. Whether that is in
0:13:41 > 0:13:44the last elections, though there is a lot of evidence that the Russian
0:13:44 > 0:13:50military were behind that, this is how Putin is able to show his people
0:13:50 > 0:13:53that Russia is ten feet tall and able to project power on the
0:13:53 > 0:13:59international stage.Dmitry, does it make you think well of Putin
0:13:59 > 0:14:04domestically and abroad when he spoken about in these terms?That's
0:14:04 > 0:14:08a very novel approach to the problem I have just heard from Laura. That's
0:14:08 > 0:14:13not the way it is played out in Russia all viewed in Russia. We are
0:14:13 > 0:14:18talking about a bigger problem. For more than ten years the West has
0:14:18 > 0:14:24been manufacturing an enemy out of Russia and as you...But my point
0:14:24 > 0:14:33is, who else has two game from an attack on Ukraine?This is
0:14:33 > 0:14:37speculative, but it's those that undermined the two-way relationship
0:14:37 > 0:14:43between Europe and Russia, between the West and Russia.Edward, we are
0:14:43 > 0:14:48not talking about clean hands when it comes to America. If Russia is
0:14:48 > 0:14:54that the game, others are at the game, Americans and the Chinese?
0:14:54 > 0:14:59Yes, all countries engage in espionage and certainly America ran
0:14:59 > 0:15:02a targeted attack on the Iranian nuclear programme. Many people would
0:15:02 > 0:15:06say that was a much better way than trying to bomb Iran's nuclear
0:15:06 > 0:15:10programme. The point here is that Russia's cyber weapons are being
0:15:10 > 0:15:18deployed in a reckless way. If they were simply spying...Is he right
0:15:18 > 0:15:25that it could kill thousands if they attack the energy system?If the
0:15:25 > 0:15:29power grid shutdown in Britain, there would be terrible disruption,
0:15:29 > 0:15:33probably people would die. I actually think the American power
0:15:33 > 0:15:35grid is more vulnerable than the British one because it's less
0:15:35 > 0:15:40resilient. The fundamental point here is that Russia is showing its
0:15:40 > 0:15:43medals -- muscles and we don't really have an answer. We could do
0:15:43 > 0:15:48really, as we should be seizing money.Thank you very much indeed.
0:15:48 > 0:15:51Donald Trump said today that "no child should be in danger
0:15:51 > 0:15:52in an American school."
0:15:52 > 0:15:54So why was the 19-year-old, Nikolas Cruz, who had links
0:15:54 > 0:15:57with a white supremicist group and had been flagged to the FBI
0:15:57 > 0:16:00as a potential risk, able to get into the school
0:16:00 > 0:16:02which had expelled him, and allegedly massacre 17 people
0:16:02 > 0:16:03with an assault weapon?
0:16:03 > 0:16:06The US President said today that "we are committed to working
0:16:06 > 0:16:08with local leaders to tackle the difficult issue of mental
0:16:08 > 0:16:11health", reminding people that in February last year Donald Trump
0:16:11 > 0:16:14signed a law revoking an Obama era regulatory initiative that made it
0:16:14 > 0:16:18harder for people with a mental illness to buy a gun.
0:16:18 > 0:16:21The Parkland school shooting in Florida is the 18th incident this
0:16:21 > 0:16:25year at an American school where a weapon has been discharged.
0:16:25 > 0:16:30In the era of mobile phone technology, students recorded
0:16:30 > 0:16:33the aftermath of the deadly shooting at the school in an affluent town
0:16:33 > 0:16:37of 30,000 an hour from Miami.
0:16:37 > 0:16:40Police, police.
0:16:40 > 0:16:41Put your phones away.
0:16:41 > 0:16:43Put your phones away.
0:16:43 > 0:16:45In a cruel twist, the school was reportedly planning an active
0:16:45 > 0:16:49shooter drill in just a few weeks...
0:16:49 > 0:16:51Across the US television networks, since Columbine
0:16:51 > 0:16:56and Sandy Hook, school shootings have made far too many headlines.
0:16:56 > 0:17:01The president made his early response on Twitter.
0:17:01 > 0:17:04So many signs that the Florida shooter was
0:17:04 > 0:17:06mentally disturbed, even expelled from school for bad and erratic
0:17:06 > 0:17:09behaviour.
0:17:09 > 0:17:17Later, Donald Trump made a television appeal directly to
0:17:17 > 0:17:19children in America but made no mention of guns.
0:17:19 > 0:17:24To every parent, teacher and child who is hurting so
0:17:24 > 0:17:28badly, we are here for you, whatever you need, whatever we can do to ease
0:17:28 > 0:17:31your pain.
0:17:31 > 0:17:37We are all joined together as one American family and
0:17:37 > 0:17:44your suffering is our burden also.
0:17:44 > 0:17:47The news that the FBI were warned that orphan Nikolas Cruz could be
0:17:47 > 0:17:50dangerous, the fact that he was a member of a white
0:17:50 > 0:17:54nationalist group and that apparently he was not
0:17:54 > 0:17:57allowed on campus wearing a backpack all point to a lack of any
0:17:57 > 0:18:02co-ordinated investigation into a clearly disturbed individual.
0:18:02 > 0:18:04Law enforcement agents say that Cruz bought a semiautomatic
0:18:04 > 0:18:08assault weapon legally a year ago.
0:18:08 > 0:18:11AR15-style weapons have been used in several school massacres.
0:18:11 > 0:18:17They're the consumer version of the M-16 and
0:18:17 > 0:18:20there are 8 million of them in American hands, but will there be
0:18:20 > 0:18:23any appetite in the White House to outlaw the weapon that has killed
0:18:23 > 0:18:29so many schoolchildren?
0:18:29 > 0:18:31Rather than debate the rights and wrongs of US gun laws again,
0:18:31 > 0:18:34instead, we're going to talk to two people intimately
0:18:34 > 0:18:36and directly involved in two prior mass shootings.
0:18:36 > 0:18:39Joining me from Denver is Tom Mauser, the father
0:18:39 > 0:18:42of a victim of the 1999 Columbine massacre, and in Blacksburg
0:18:42 > 0:18:45the author Lucinda Roy, who is a professor at
0:18:45 > 0:18:47Virginia Tech University where she taught the gunman
0:18:47 > 0:18:53responsible for the 2007 shooting.
0:18:53 > 0:19:01Thank you both very much for joining us tonight.First of all, Tom
0:19:01 > 0:19:03Mauser, I imagine every day is a hard day that doesn't make it worse
0:19:03 > 0:19:09when you are reminded by yet another shooting in a school?Absolutely. It
0:19:09 > 0:19:15takes you back to that day and you can just imagine what those parents
0:19:15 > 0:19:19are going through because you went through it as well.And when you
0:19:19 > 0:19:25look at the profile of Nikolas Cruz, orphaned, I gather he recently lost
0:19:25 > 0:19:32his mother. Disruptive, expelled from school, apparently not a road
0:19:32 > 0:19:37in the area and even backpack, on the YouTube saying he wanted to be a
0:19:37 > 0:19:43professional school shooter. It must break your heart that nothing was
0:19:43 > 0:19:49able to be done to stop him?That is right. He fits the profile. This is
0:19:49 > 0:19:53the profile of someone who is troubled and dangerous and yet we
0:19:53 > 0:20:00did nothing about it.What do you think is the problem, a lack of
0:20:00 > 0:20:03coordination, a lack of clear, a lack of concern about what has
0:20:03 > 0:20:06happened previously in order to try to make sure it doesn't happen
0:20:06 > 0:20:13again?Yeah, I think there is a lack of coordination, in some cases
0:20:13 > 0:20:16between the police and the schools and other organisations that need to
0:20:16 > 0:20:21know what is going on. And is also a sense of there is nothing we can do
0:20:21 > 0:20:31it anyway. Because it could affect his rights. And as a result we are
0:20:31 > 0:20:34paralysed and we have law enforcement to feel there is not
0:20:34 > 0:20:39much they can do about cases like this, to stop it but that's not
0:20:39 > 0:20:44true.Your son Daniel was so cruelly killed, I wonder what parents of
0:20:44 > 0:20:53calling -- Columbine did to make sure it never happened again and I
0:20:53 > 0:21:00wonder if eventually it just fell on deaf ears?I think some changes were
0:21:00 > 0:21:05made, certainly law enforcement learned they had to go into the
0:21:05 > 0:21:10schools against an active shooter, not just wait outside like they did
0:21:10 > 0:21:14at Columbine. Schools are more prepared for these attacks. But in
0:21:14 > 0:21:18terms of stopping them and keeping guns away from people who make these
0:21:18 > 0:21:23attacks, no, very little has been done.Yet we have President Trump
0:21:23 > 0:21:27speaking directly to the children of America saying he will make school
0:21:27 > 0:21:31safe but no talk of guns. The White House which presumably does not want
0:21:31 > 0:21:39to change the right to bear arms. That's right. The president made it
0:21:39 > 0:21:43into that office with a lot of support from the National Rifle
0:21:43 > 0:21:46Association. He is not going to speak badly about guns and so long
0:21:46 > 0:21:49as we are not speaking of guns as part of this issue we won't get
0:21:49 > 0:21:58anywhere.Thank you very much... Sorry, I want to turn it to Lucinda
0:21:58 > 0:22:07Roy. You taught the man who went on to kill 32 people at Virginia Tech,
0:22:07 > 0:22:13Seung-Hui Cho. You taught him and you had fears and worries, what
0:22:13 > 0:22:21happened?I reported the student to a number of different entities at
0:22:21 > 0:22:23the University including law enforcement and Dean of students and
0:22:23 > 0:22:29so on because I knew it was very difficult for there to be consensus
0:22:29 > 0:22:33about what needs to be done so I always tried to make sure I got as
0:22:33 > 0:22:38many people involved as possible. But take us through why you were so
0:22:38 > 0:22:44concerned about the student.This was a student who was 23, 22 years
0:22:44 > 0:22:49old, he had not spoken much since he was two years old. He suffered from
0:22:49 > 0:22:53something called selective mutism which meant he did not speak out
0:22:53 > 0:22:57loud often in social situations but he also seemed very angry, and he
0:22:57 > 0:23:01wrote an angry poem about class and I did not think it was safe to leave
0:23:01 > 0:23:07him in the class. The only option I had was to try to work with myself
0:23:07 > 0:23:13which is what I did. But things have changed that time. For the most part
0:23:13 > 0:23:16you can get help for students but the trouble is you can still only
0:23:16 > 0:23:22get it for a couple of days off them and then they can come back to the
0:23:22 > 0:23:25classroom because there is not enough support for mental health and
0:23:25 > 0:23:30not enough funds for it. So unless we try to look at that as well as
0:23:30 > 0:23:36the gun issue we will still be in trouble.I can see the Tom Mauser is
0:23:36 > 0:23:40nodding in agreement with you. You have a situation Lucinda Roy where
0:23:40 > 0:23:45you have a student who kills 32 people and the drama and the whole
0:23:45 > 0:23:49college must be horrific, yet I imagine if you debate the right to
0:23:49 > 0:23:53have a gun and number of students in the university would still say we
0:23:53 > 0:23:58believe it is the American way and part of identity, so you have that
0:23:58 > 0:24:02terrible dilemma?Many of the students did lobby for guns and
0:24:02 > 0:24:06wanted to have the right to bring guns to campus so they could defend
0:24:06 > 0:24:11themselves. In fact to the NRA tries to stoke that kind of thing as much
0:24:11 > 0:24:18as possible. It can be difficult to try to get some communication
0:24:18 > 0:24:22through the noise and make sure people understand as long as America
0:24:22 > 0:24:25is in denial it will keep slaughtering its children which is
0:24:25 > 0:24:31exactly what is happening.What happens with each one, after
0:24:31 > 0:24:36Columbine happened, after Sandy Hook, everybody says this will be
0:24:36 > 0:24:41the tipping point, this will be the one which kick-starts a change in
0:24:41 > 0:24:46American culture and it never happens. I wonder if you think there
0:24:46 > 0:24:52might be a generational change, that some of the children, social media
0:24:52 > 0:24:55as well, seeing these terrible massacres, might adopt a different
0:24:55 > 0:25:01attitude going forward, what do you think?That is true, I go around the
0:25:01 > 0:25:04country talking about troubled students and campus safety and one
0:25:04 > 0:25:09thing I have understood is that this is the first lockdown generation.
0:25:09 > 0:25:12It's so ridiculous that adults still think they cannot talk with young
0:25:12 > 0:25:17people about this because young people live it every day and they
0:25:17 > 0:25:19are incredibly brave and they know something needs to be done because
0:25:19 > 0:25:26they are living in classes that are terrorist sites so we have to do
0:25:26 > 0:25:30something. What is inspiring is to see how many young people are coming
0:25:30 > 0:25:37forward to make sure things will change.Let me put that to you Tom
0:25:37 > 0:25:40do you notice a sea change in the younger generation, the generation
0:25:40 > 0:25:47wench went to the horror of Columbine?I do see that, especially
0:25:47 > 0:25:50young people are asking and should be asking is this the kind of world
0:25:50 > 0:25:55I want to live in? The gun lobby in America is seeing the only way to be
0:25:55 > 0:26:01safest to have more guns, teachers with guns, people carrying concealed
0:26:01 > 0:26:05weapons, openly carrying weapons, it's the only way to be safe. I
0:26:05 > 0:26:08think they are asking themselves that question, is this the country
0:26:08 > 0:26:13we want to live in?Thank you both very much.
0:26:13 > 0:26:15Later in the programme we preview Akram Khan's
0:26:15 > 0:26:17final solo performance.
0:26:17 > 0:26:21This soldier is formerly a dancer.
0:26:21 > 0:26:24That's the character I'm playing.
0:26:24 > 0:26:32He's presenting a classical recital, Indian classical dance recital.
0:26:36 > 0:26:38But first, we're constantly bombarded with headlines about
0:26:38 > 0:26:41what does or doesn't cause cancer.
0:26:41 > 0:26:44In the last year alone we've been told that:
0:26:44 > 0:26:45Hot tea - causes cancer.
0:26:45 > 0:26:49Bacon - causes cancer.
0:26:49 > 0:26:54Potatoes - prevent cancer.
0:26:54 > 0:26:59Flip flops - cause cancer.
0:26:59 > 0:27:06And coffee and alcohol both prevent and cause cancer
0:27:06 > 0:27:08The latest of these warnings came today.
0:27:08 > 0:27:11'Ultra' or highly-processed foods like mass-produced breads,
0:27:11 > 0:27:13chocolate bars, sweets, fizzy drinks, chicken nuggets
0:27:13 > 0:27:16and instant soups and noodles are pushing up cancer rates,
0:27:16 > 0:27:20we were told.
0:27:20 > 0:27:22What are we to make of all this?
0:27:22 > 0:27:28Are we to heed the warnings, or take it all with a pinch of salt?
0:27:28 > 0:27:32Joining me now in the studio is Deborah Ashby, the incoming
0:27:32 > 0:27:35president of the Royal Statistical Society and Head of the School
0:27:35 > 0:27:40of Public Health at Imperial College London.
0:27:40 > 0:27:43Thank you for joining us, what do you think when you see those
0:27:43 > 0:27:49headlines?My heart sank because I thought here is another good study
0:27:49 > 0:27:55that we need being completely overinterpreted.But you think we
0:27:55 > 0:27:58need good studies and there were nuggets in that study, not chicken
0:27:58 > 0:28:05nuggets obviously?We absolutely need studies because it's reasonable
0:28:05 > 0:28:10to try to explore what about our diet might lead to cancers are heart
0:28:10 > 0:28:14disease or anything else. We cannot do experiments where we get people
0:28:14 > 0:28:18to do one rather than the other so we collect data on people, observe
0:28:18 > 0:28:23what they are doing. It's the best way we've got to get a handle on it.
0:28:23 > 0:28:28But to then take that and say that causes cancer you should stop eating
0:28:28 > 0:28:36that causes panic or people say I don't believe any of it.That is the
0:28:36 > 0:28:41danger. I wonder if you can take that right back to say, you cannot
0:28:41 > 0:28:47say something causes cancer, but when you look at tobacco, was that
0:28:47 > 0:28:52moment when you finally were able to break through?That is a good
0:28:52 > 0:28:58example because it first observed that lung cancer rates were going up
0:28:58 > 0:29:01and people started to say what was it about them, what other changes
0:29:01 > 0:29:05which are going on? There was an observational study of doctors,
0:29:05 > 0:29:12looking at their smoking habits and we began to observe that tobacco was
0:29:12 > 0:29:15linked to cancer. It took a long time to follow that through and
0:29:15 > 0:29:19clearly understand the size of the problem, let alone burrow down and
0:29:19 > 0:29:23see which chemicals are causing it. It takes decades to go from that
0:29:23 > 0:29:28first observation to get the truth. There are things is not causing
0:29:28 > 0:29:31cancer then causing the diseases which lead to other things,
0:29:31 > 0:29:37trans-and sugars for example. It's not that the jury is out and sugar,
0:29:37 > 0:29:42sugar is just bad, is that right?I don't know that evidence terribly
0:29:42 > 0:29:46well myself but there are observational studies and sugar has
0:29:46 > 0:29:52benefits in some ways, but it is probably fairly empty but it is the
0:29:52 > 0:29:55observational studies which help us burrow down. For something like
0:29:55 > 0:29:59smoking and cancer it's a huge effect so we can see it early and
0:29:59 > 0:30:03get to the bottom of it. Other things were looking at a relatively
0:30:03 > 0:30:08subtle and that is why it takes longer.It is interesting, so much
0:30:08 > 0:30:12work done in Cancer Research and I wonder if you would ever again with
0:30:12 > 0:30:17anything be able to have a moment like the tobacco moment?I think on
0:30:17 > 0:30:23that there was
0:30:24 > 0:30:27that there was not one moment where it suddenly fell into place. People
0:30:27 > 0:30:28looked at it and looked at the studies, people who smoke may also
0:30:28 > 0:30:33drink, how do you pick which one of those it is? I think it's a slower
0:30:33 > 0:30:36crawl of evidence, each study is a brick on the wall and it's not one
0:30:36 > 0:30:44moment where you think are halfso if you are a lay person and not able
0:30:44 > 0:30:49to read the statistical data, what are you to believe and what did you
0:30:49 > 0:30:55make of it and what you to do?First thing I think look beyond the
0:30:55 > 0:30:59headlines. The headlines are often a brief snippet to get you to read it
0:30:59 > 0:31:03and sometimes the over egged it. The first thing is read, a lot of the
0:31:03 > 0:31:08journalism today has been good, talking about the caveats. If you're
0:31:08 > 0:31:15not sure what to do go to a reputable charities, Cancer Research
0:31:15 > 0:31:18UK, NHS advice gives good stuff. They will have looked that the sum
0:31:18 > 0:31:21total of the evidence and thought about it and thought what do we know
0:31:21 > 0:31:27and what is the best advice? But do not react sharply to one study.
0:31:27 > 0:31:30Thank you very much indeed.
0:31:30 > 0:31:32Akram Khan is an award-winning choreographer and dancer,
0:31:32 > 0:31:35one of the most exciting talents working in the dance world today.
0:31:35 > 0:31:39Newsnight's had privileged access to his latest show,
0:31:39 > 0:31:42Xenos which gets its world premiere in Athens next week.
0:31:42 > 0:31:43In May it will have its British equivalent
0:31:43 > 0:31:45at London's Sadlers Wells.
0:31:45 > 0:31:49Xenos is a milestone for Akram Khan - he'll retire from full length solo
0:31:49 > 0:31:50performing after it.
0:31:50 > 0:31:53With the work still in development, he gave Katie Razzall his insights
0:31:53 > 0:31:55into the creative process and much more.
0:32:01 > 0:32:05We are still developing material.
0:32:05 > 0:32:08And the way I create sometimes is I create a whole load
0:32:08 > 0:32:16of crap and within that, there's some good stuff,
0:32:16 > 0:32:19but you still create it and then you start to replace the crap
0:32:19 > 0:32:20with good stuff.
0:32:20 > 0:32:22So...
0:32:22 > 0:32:26Otherwise you don't begin anywhere.
0:32:26 > 0:32:31Let's get the structure and at least we have some kind of spine,
0:32:31 > 0:32:35some kind of journey that goes from A to Z and then
0:32:35 > 0:32:37we flesh out the dance.
0:32:37 > 0:32:39And that's what you're doing now?
0:32:39 > 0:32:43That's what we're doing now.
0:32:43 > 0:32:48Akram Khan's methods are worth a listen.
0:32:48 > 0:32:51For almost two decades, this dancer and choreographer has
0:32:51 > 0:32:55created some of this country's most imaginative works.
0:32:55 > 0:32:58Newsnight had early sight of his latest, Xenos,
0:32:58 > 0:33:03as it was evolving in a rehearsal space in central London.
0:33:03 > 0:33:09It will be Khan's last ever full-length solo performance.
0:33:09 > 0:33:12The heart of Xenos is really following this story of this Indian
0:33:12 > 0:33:16soldier who fought for the Brits.
0:33:16 > 0:33:22It's the very early scene before he gets taken into war.
0:33:22 > 0:33:27This soldier is formally a dancer and that's the character I'm playing
0:33:27 > 0:33:30and he is presenting a classical recital, Indian
0:33:30 > 0:33:37classical dance recital.
0:33:37 > 0:33:414 million men from Britain's colonies fought in World War I and
0:33:41 > 0:33:44in this centenary year, Khan is honouring their often
0:33:44 > 0:33:48forgotten stories.
0:33:48 > 0:33:50Xenos also feels a political work, which speaks to his
0:33:50 > 0:33:54view of Britain now.
0:33:54 > 0:33:58Xenos is a Greek word which means stranger or foreigner and of course
0:33:58 > 0:34:02it then expands into xenophobia, the word xenophobia.
0:34:02 > 0:34:05It's a symptom that was there before the First World War.
0:34:05 > 0:34:08It was the same symptom before the Second World War.
0:34:08 > 0:34:10And that symptom's returned.
0:34:10 > 0:34:14And it's quite frightening, to be honest with you,
0:34:14 > 0:34:18and so I'm in a place where I wanted to explore what I'm feeling,
0:34:18 > 0:34:21what a stranger feels like.
0:34:21 > 0:34:24You know, I was born and brought up in London.
0:34:24 > 0:34:31I never really felt that much a foreigner or a stranger.
0:34:31 > 0:34:34I somehow felt more of a foreigner in Bangladesh when I used to return
0:34:34 > 0:34:36back for wedding parties or somebody's birth
0:34:36 > 0:34:38or somebody's death.
0:34:38 > 0:34:42My parents would take me back and I felt very British, somehow.
0:34:42 > 0:34:46And here, there was a period during the 80s and 90s
0:34:46 > 0:34:48when I was working at my dad's restaurant as a waiter
0:34:48 > 0:34:51and we faced some racism.
0:34:51 > 0:34:59I feel very...
0:34:59 > 0:35:01I feel very brown right now.
0:35:01 > 0:35:04I never thought about colour before.
0:35:04 > 0:35:09Is that because of direct things that have happened to you or is it
0:35:09 > 0:35:12a feeling about a changing sense of our country?
0:35:12 > 0:35:16I think it's not a direct feeling to me, towards me,
0:35:16 > 0:35:21but it's this feeling of being brown is really more about the way
0:35:21 > 0:35:29the country's being led, our country's being led.
0:35:29 > 0:35:31With Brexit.
0:35:31 > 0:35:33It's all building walls again.
0:35:33 > 0:35:36The reason for why perhaps consciously Xenos came about, this
0:35:36 > 0:35:44piece, was because of my reaction to what is happening.
0:35:46 > 0:35:48Akram Khan's a storyteller at heart, his chosen vehicle a unique blend
0:35:48 > 0:35:56of contemporary and Indian dance.
0:35:58 > 0:36:03Do you even know what it is to be a man?
0:36:03 > 0:36:07He won an Olivier award for this work, Desh,
0:36:07 > 0:36:10an exploration of his ancestral homeland in Bangladesh and his
0:36:10 > 0:36:11relationship with his father.
0:36:11 > 0:36:14His show Dust graced Glastonbury's Pyramid stage and Khan
0:36:14 > 0:36:20himself performed at the Olympic opening ceremony with Emile Sande.
0:36:20 > 0:36:23Pushing dance into new realms, he collaborated with artist
0:36:23 > 0:36:27Anish Kapoor for this show Cash and others.
0:36:27 > 0:36:33The likes of dancer Sylvie Guillem, actress Juliette Binoche
0:36:33 > 0:36:36and sculptor Anthony Gormley have also joined forces with Khan.
0:36:36 > 0:36:39At the age of 43, the physical rigours of dancing are taking
0:36:39 > 0:36:41their toll but when he started out, it was the only way
0:36:41 > 0:36:46he could express himself.
0:36:46 > 0:36:49I was always afraid of talking because I grew up in a society,
0:36:49 > 0:36:51a Bangladeshi community, that was highly driven
0:36:51 > 0:36:55in an academic sense.
0:36:55 > 0:36:59They all turned out, all my friends turned out to be doctors, dentists
0:36:59 > 0:37:06for some reason, lawyers, engineers. I couldn't fit into my community in
0:37:06 > 0:37:10that way because I felt that whenever I spoke, it would just
0:37:10 > 0:37:17sounds silly. I won a competition at school, a disco competition, and it
0:37:17 > 0:37:21was the first time that people in my class, the students in my class knew
0:37:21 > 0:37:27my name. And people seemed to listen and suddenly people went, oh, well
0:37:27 > 0:37:32done for winning the competition. I saw you doing Michael Jackson or
0:37:32 > 0:37:425-star.Do you feel you're at that stage? This is your last full-length
0:37:42 > 0:37:48solo performance.I'm looking downhill now, absolutely.
0:37:48 > 0:37:55Physically?Physically it's taken its toll, and so I'm very emotional
0:37:55 > 0:38:03about this transition. I think most dancers would be. I'm sure they are.
0:38:03 > 0:38:07Is it sadness or more complicated than that?I think it's much more
0:38:07 > 0:38:11complex than that because this is, you know, my body's been my voice
0:38:11 > 0:38:22and my strength. That's the way I communicate.
0:38:22 > 0:38:26from February 21st.
0:38:26 > 0:38:28-- And you can see Xenos performed at Sadlers Wells
0:38:28 > 0:38:36from February 21st.
0:38:37 > 0:38:40Now, we want you to sleep well tonight but tomorrow's headlines are
0:38:40 > 0:38:48not going to help with that. If those two went as bad as they could
0:38:48 > 0:38:54get, on the front page of The Times, shampoo is as bad a health risk as
0:38:54 > 0:38:56exhaust fumes.
0:38:56 > 0:38:59That's all for this evening - but before we go, it's been 20 years
0:38:59 > 0:39:02since the Angel of the North first spread its wings over Gateshead.
0:39:02 > 0:39:05Given its iconic status now, it's easy to forget that at the time
0:39:05 > 0:39:07of its construction, it wasn't without its troubles -
0:39:07 > 0:39:09engineering difficulties and some local opposition.
0:39:09 > 0:39:12We thought it was as good a reason as any to show
0:39:12 > 0:39:13Sir Anthony Gormley's steel totem.
0:39:13 > 0:39:14Good night.
0:39:16 > 0:39:19Start song at last
0:39:35 > 0:39:49My lonely days are over. And life is like a song.
0:39:49 > 0:40:01Oh, yeah, yeah. At last.