0:00:06 > 0:00:09Tonight, powerful images from Washington as America's young
0:00:09 > 0:00:14stage a lie-in outside White House to demand a change to gun laws.
0:00:14 > 0:00:16President Trump backs calls for checks
0:00:16 > 0:00:18on those buying weapons.
0:00:18 > 0:00:20Nobody is now better placed to bring gun owners
0:00:20 > 0:00:22into a more reasoned debate.
0:00:22 > 0:00:24But will he choose to fight the fight?
0:00:24 > 0:00:26We'll ask the NRA.
0:00:26 > 0:00:29Also tonight...
0:00:31 > 0:00:34Does exploitation cut both ways?
0:00:34 > 0:00:42I'll ask the Chippendales if they feel objectified for their looks.
0:00:43 > 0:00:50Do you enjoy the touching?I do enjoy the touching but it is mostly
0:00:50 > 0:00:53because... It isn't so much the touching itself, people are having
0:00:53 > 0:00:55fun.
0:00:55 > 0:00:57And as Iceland proposes a ban on male circumcision,
0:00:57 > 0:01:05we'll ask whether the practice is a violation or a religious right?
0:01:10 > 0:01:12Good evening.
0:01:12 > 0:01:15The pressure to talk about gun laws is now coming from America's young.
0:01:15 > 0:01:18Students in Florida who survived last week's mass shooting have
0:01:18 > 0:01:20received the support of others around the nation.
0:01:20 > 0:01:24Marches are being planned all over America to amplify their message
0:01:24 > 0:01:26of stricter gun control.
0:01:26 > 0:01:29And when school kids, showing a maturity and a drive
0:01:29 > 0:01:32their elders may have lost, threaten to march on Washington,
0:01:32 > 0:01:35the optics don't look good for a President.
0:01:35 > 0:01:37Perhaps with that in mind, President Trump today
0:01:37 > 0:01:40signalled his support for a cross-party effort
0:01:40 > 0:01:43to improve the national system of background checks.
0:01:43 > 0:01:44It's a small move.
0:01:44 > 0:01:46And, since being in office, he's rolled back more
0:01:46 > 0:01:48checks than he's created.
0:01:48 > 0:01:51But the irony is perhaps this one - a man who has no particular affinity
0:01:51 > 0:01:55with gun culture but is backed squarely by the rump
0:01:55 > 0:01:59of those who do - including the National Rifle Association -
0:01:59 > 0:02:02could not be better placed to change one of the most critical,
0:02:02 > 0:02:04corrosive terrors of modern America.
0:02:04 > 0:02:11Will he?
0:02:11 > 0:02:17Having mulled it over at his Florida country club this weekend, President
0:02:17 > 0:02:22Trump is ready to shift ground on gun control.Donald Trump has
0:02:22 > 0:02:27signalled through his press secretary that he is interested in
0:02:27 > 0:02:30considering and potentially supporting a bipartisan bill by two
0:02:30 > 0:02:36senators that were tried to close loopholes in the national and
0:02:36 > 0:02:40criminal background check system to make it harder for felons to
0:02:40 > 0:02:44purchase guns and to be more effective in checking registration
0:02:44 > 0:02:48and licensing before things are sold. I would not call that a
0:02:48 > 0:02:54rethink. This legislation has been floating around for a while.It's a
0:02:54 > 0:02:59small step, for sure, but the Americans love their guns and it's
0:02:59 > 0:03:02striking for the fact it is almost exactly one year ago President Trump
0:03:02 > 0:03:11rolled back Obama registration rolls that made it harder for those
0:03:11 > 0:03:16mentally ill to buy guns.Given his emphatic support for what he'd turn
0:03:16 > 0:03:25gun rights, a pro-gun position, the measure you are referring to be
0:03:25 > 0:03:29obtained to people with mental issues being able to buy guns. More
0:03:29 > 0:03:33broadly, he has been extremely supportive of those who favour the
0:03:33 > 0:03:37second Amendment.With the first of the Florida victims buried yesterday
0:03:37 > 0:03:48and further funerals do -- chew, this could signal a change. A huge
0:03:48 > 0:03:52march has been called for next month and the massacre's survivors are
0:03:52 > 0:03:56taking aim at the gun lobby and its captive politicians.This is our
0:03:56 > 0:04:04opportunity to talk to President Trump, Governor Rick Scott and the
0:04:04 > 0:04:09State Senator to make sure that they know we are talking directly to them
0:04:09 > 0:04:12and all other members of the United States government that are being
0:04:12 > 0:04:16funded by the NRA to tell them now is the time to get on the right side
0:04:16 > 0:04:23of this.So, Trump consulted people at his golf club, reportedly asking
0:04:23 > 0:04:26about tighter checks and bans on selling assault weapons to under
0:04:26 > 0:04:3321s. Quite different from his pledge at the NRA convention.You have a
0:04:33 > 0:04:38true friend and champion in the White House, no longer will federal
0:04:38 > 0:04:45agencies be coming after law-abiding gun owners.Until today, the
0:04:45 > 0:04:50president focused on first responders and characterise the
0:04:50 > 0:04:54Florida shooting in terms of mental illness but gun-control is creeping
0:04:54 > 0:04:59onto the agenda. Years ago, trumpeted right in favour of it but,
0:04:59 > 0:05:05given the millions he has taken from the gun lobby, today's move may be
0:05:05 > 0:05:08tactical in nature.It seems as though his new-found support for gun
0:05:08 > 0:05:15control, especially this very basic not at all controversial
0:05:15 > 0:05:18legislation, is a way to regain cover, to say he's doing something,
0:05:18 > 0:05:27to show he cares. Even though it isn't much of anything he has done.
0:05:27 > 0:05:32But the Florida victims, both those whose names were recited by
0:05:32 > 0:05:37protesters today, and the articulate survivors, are having an impact. If
0:05:37 > 0:05:42they can build momentum, Trump could face a more serious reckoning, one
0:05:42 > 0:05:52which would require him to push it -- position himself as the NRA's
0:05:52 > 0:05:54friend and in favour of restrictions.
0:05:54 > 0:05:57Joining me now from Dallas is Antonia Okafor - she's a member
0:05:57 > 0:05:59of the National Rifle Association and founded Empowered,
0:05:59 > 0:06:07an organisation to promote armed self defence in US colleges.
0:06:13 > 0:06:17You support an organisation most people marching today find abhorrent
0:06:17 > 0:06:22and vile, what is your response to them?That isn't true for all young
0:06:22 > 0:06:28people in America. As a millennial, I support the NRA and the gun rights
0:06:28 > 0:06:32movements and groups, and there are thousands if not millions of young
0:06:32 > 0:06:37people who also believe it is about empowering few law-abiding citizens
0:06:37 > 0:06:41who are doing the right and correct thing, the rights we want to protect
0:06:41 > 0:06:48and defend when the situation comes. So I don't think... Groups like
0:06:48 > 0:06:53Bloomberg, they are not representative of all young people
0:06:53 > 0:06:58in America.This is a hard one, as I know you know, for a British
0:06:58 > 0:07:05audience. Take us inside the mind of an NRA member. Did what happened in
0:07:05 > 0:07:10Florida shift your support at all? Did what happened in Vegas last year
0:07:10 > 0:07:19shift your support at all? Do these register for you? Absolutely and it
0:07:19 > 0:07:22registered for millions of Americans.If not worldwide. There
0:07:22 > 0:07:27was a study which showed that American people are sick and tired
0:07:27 > 0:07:33of what people would call gun-control, it isn't working. I
0:07:33 > 0:07:39grew up in an era when we had Columbine, and those situations are
0:07:39 > 0:07:42why I have the position that law-abiding citizens, even students
0:07:42 > 0:07:47on campus, should be able to protect themselves. Just because these
0:07:47 > 0:07:52things happen doesn't mean we are going to come to agreement on how we
0:07:52 > 0:07:56should proceed in the future. I believe that...The solution is more
0:07:56 > 0:08:05guns? More arming, more students? Is that honestly how you see it?The
0:08:05 > 0:08:10solution is that the right people have firearms, the right people are
0:08:10 > 0:08:14the ones when something like what happened at the shooting in Florida,
0:08:14 > 0:08:17when we expect the students and administrators to defend our
0:08:17 > 0:08:22students, but we don't give them to the tools to defend them, that is
0:08:22 > 0:08:26the problem. People are ready, especially now, to try something
0:08:26 > 0:08:30different because what has been happening before isn't working.Quds
0:08:30 > 0:08:34trying something different been making gun laws tighter? When you
0:08:34 > 0:08:39see the impassioned voice of Emma Gonzalez, when you see the students
0:08:39 > 0:08:42staging a sit in to represent corpses of their colleagues and
0:08:42 > 0:08:47friends killed, do you not start to think you might be on the wrong side
0:08:47 > 0:08:53of history here?No. I am not on the wrong side of history, I am on the
0:08:53 > 0:08:57right side of history. If anything, we can look at Baltimore, Saint
0:08:57 > 0:09:04Lewis, Chicago who have the strictest gun laws in America to
0:09:04 > 0:09:07date but, yet, we are seeing hundreds of people killed every day.
0:09:07 > 0:09:18What has been going on in terms of gun control isn't working so I am
0:09:18 > 0:09:21saying people are sick of gun control when nothing is changing.
0:09:21 > 0:09:26The presidency looks worried today. Probably the optics of young people
0:09:26 > 0:09:30marching on Washington after their colleagues and friends have died
0:09:30 > 0:09:34isn't good for a president that has been so heavily financially backed
0:09:34 > 0:09:42by the NRA. Is he right to start to look again at background checks?
0:09:42 > 0:09:46Well, Sandy Hook happened during President Obama's term.And he did
0:09:46 > 0:09:53look at those checks.I'm sorry?He did try to introduce measures, that
0:09:53 > 0:09:57is the difference between them, isn't it?No, President Trump has
0:09:57 > 0:10:02said he was going to look at mental health reform. He said he's going to
0:10:02 > 0:10:09look into a background check system. The bill we are talking about, that
0:10:09 > 0:10:14took place in November after what happened in Texas. It is really
0:10:14 > 0:10:22looking into what we should already have implemented. The Air Force one
0:10:22 > 0:10:28to talk about the domestic abuse that happened in South Texas with
0:10:28 > 0:10:33the perpetrator. They failed with the FBI to go multiple times to
0:10:33 > 0:10:37restrict this person from having a firearm. Nobody is against that. We
0:10:37 > 0:10:41are against making it harder for Laura biding citizens who just want
0:10:41 > 0:10:44to make sure they are able to protect themselves. One of the
0:10:44 > 0:10:49suggestions is we should change it from 18 to 21. We have people as
0:10:49 > 0:10:56young as seven who grew up with hunting rifles.With the greatest
0:10:56 > 0:10:59respect, though, the young people marching on Washington today are not
0:10:59 > 0:11:05looking at that. They are saying we need, altogether, stronger controls
0:11:05 > 0:11:09and we will go after the legislators that are supported and financed by
0:11:09 > 0:11:15the NRA. Should that worry legislators?No, it shouldn't.
0:11:15 > 0:11:19Again, I am saying these people are not representative of all Americans
0:11:19 > 0:11:23when it comes to this issue. We have to make different ideas of what it
0:11:23 > 0:11:30looks like. Of course, we want to make sure students are safer. But
0:11:30 > 0:11:33unfortunately we continue to think gun control is the answer. I'm here
0:11:33 > 0:11:37to say that isn't true and there are millions behind me who believe that
0:11:37 > 0:11:43as well.Thank you for joining us. You can read it as reassurance or as
0:11:43 > 0:11:49a climb-down but are the Brexit secretary will seek to quell fears.
0:11:49 > 0:11:52David Davis will talk of those who sense Brexit leading
0:11:52 > 0:11:55to an Anglo-Saxon race to the bottom, a Mad Max style world
0:11:55 > 0:11:56borrowed from dystopian fiction.
0:11:56 > 0:11:58And he will explain why that's not going to happen.
0:11:58 > 0:12:00Our political editor, Nick Watt, has some
0:12:00 > 0:12:03of the details and joins me now.
0:12:03 > 0:12:08So, that is good news? That arresting phrase, Mad Max, that
0:12:08 > 0:12:11should make the front page of the Guardian.What is David Davis
0:12:11 > 0:12:17saying? He says there are people in the EU who are concerned the UK will
0:12:17 > 0:12:21use brake-mac said. He says they fear Brexit could fear to an
0:12:21 > 0:12:26Anglo-Saxon race to the bottom with Britain plunged into a Mad Max style
0:12:26 > 0:12:30world borrowed from dystopian fiction. What is he saying? He's
0:12:30 > 0:12:35saying the UK has high standards and will continue to have high standards
0:12:35 > 0:12:41and doesn't want to use Brexit to undercut the EU bike/ it taxes and
0:12:41 > 0:12:47regulation. And what he is doing is burying the Singapore model. This
0:12:47 > 0:12:52was the model in the dim distance past of January last year when
0:12:52 > 0:12:56Philip Hammond said if the EU fails to agree a deal with the UK, maybe
0:12:56 > 0:13:01the UK will have to think of remodelling its economy. There is
0:13:01 > 0:13:08and if in his speech. He says the EU does need to agree a free-trade deal
0:13:08 > 0:13:14the UK. That needs to include financial services and, if that
0:13:14 > 0:13:18happens, you can then have the mutual recognition by the UK and EU
0:13:18 > 0:13:23of those high standards.Who is he talking to? Remainers? The hard-core
0:13:23 > 0:13:27Brexiteers?This is one of a series of speeches by Cabinet ministers in
0:13:27 > 0:13:33the run-up to the march summit where EU leaders are meant to agree the
0:13:33 > 0:13:37guidelines on the future trade negotiations. Interestingly, the CBI
0:13:37 > 0:13:41tonight, they say that they are pleased David Davis is talking about
0:13:41 > 0:13:46high standards. They say it is important to align rules and have no
0:13:46 > 0:13:50divergence. The government is saying you're missing the point. What we're
0:13:50 > 0:13:55talking about is mutual recognition, as I was saying, for financial
0:13:55 > 0:14:00services that is breaking new ground because it isn't going to be about
0:14:00 > 0:14:04passports, and it isn't about this idea of equivalence where the UK
0:14:04 > 0:14:08would say we will have the equivalent rules to the EU. That
0:14:08 > 0:14:12wouldn't be any good because that would be a supplicant. This is going
0:14:12 > 0:14:17along with mutual recognition, an idea that has been put together by
0:14:17 > 0:14:22Mark Hoban, the former Conservative city minister.OK, thank you.
0:14:22 > 0:14:24When Formula One confirmed at the end of last month that
0:14:24 > 0:14:27grid girls would no longer be used in its world championships,
0:14:27 > 0:14:28a new conversation began.
0:14:28 > 0:14:31Are the women who do a job they enjoy now told they're
0:14:31 > 0:14:33demeaning themselves by doing them?
0:14:33 > 0:14:36And should the same standards apply to men who use their looks,
0:14:36 > 0:14:39their bodies and their sexuality in their daily work?
0:14:39 > 0:14:41Or do we have different standards?
0:14:41 > 0:14:44I went to meet one of the most famed male adult entertainment
0:14:44 > 0:14:46acts in the business, the Chippendales.
0:14:46 > 0:14:48They dance, they striptease, and they get endlessly
0:14:48 > 0:14:50touched by their audience.
0:14:50 > 0:14:53I wanted to know if they felt a cultural shift now
0:14:53 > 0:14:57and if they would describe their own jobs as exploitative and demeaning?
0:14:57 > 0:15:04MUSIC PLAYS
0:15:04 > 0:15:09The Chippendales describe their work as half show, half party -
0:15:09 > 0:15:12a male revue that, in their words, reveals a little more.
0:15:12 > 0:15:17They call it having fun with the audience.
0:15:17 > 0:15:19You'll see hen nights and birthday girls celebrating
0:15:19 > 0:15:26at the Rio Theater in Las Vegas,
0:15:26 > 0:15:28but you'll see men here too - gay and straight.
0:15:28 > 0:15:29Some women even bring their partners.
0:15:29 > 0:15:31It's just a fun night out.
0:15:31 > 0:15:32Have you seen the Chippendales before?
0:15:32 > 0:15:34I'm actually a regular, I'm a local groupie,
0:15:34 > 0:15:37I love to come out and support them, the guys are awesome.
0:15:37 > 0:15:39They dance with you, sometimes they'll pick you up,
0:15:39 > 0:15:40it's just clean fun.
0:15:40 > 0:15:44You don't have to worry about anyone trying to go home
0:15:44 > 0:15:46like if you went out to a club, it's just good, clean fun.
0:15:46 > 0:15:50During the course of the evening, encompassing around
0:15:50 > 0:15:5715 dance routines, fancy costume changes and roleplay,
0:15:57 > 0:16:00women are able to participate as much or as little as they like.
0:16:00 > 0:16:02Touching is encouraged - above the waist only.
0:16:02 > 0:16:06But the hands, they confided, tend to get everywhere.
0:16:06 > 0:16:09So what brings me to a Chippendales show?
0:16:09 > 0:16:11Well, we've all been asking a lot of questions recently -
0:16:11 > 0:16:15about abuse, objectification, on where to draw the line
0:16:15 > 0:16:18between appropriate and inappropriate sexual behaviour.
0:16:18 > 0:16:21We have mainly, rightly, focused on women -
0:16:21 > 0:16:26be it at the Presidents Club dinners or on the Formula One grid.
0:16:26 > 0:16:29But what happens if we turn it around and ask professional
0:16:29 > 0:16:30men the same questions?
0:16:30 > 0:16:33Are the responses the same?
0:16:33 > 0:16:35Do they feel objectified, belittled, in the same way many
0:16:35 > 0:16:37women have described?
0:16:37 > 0:16:40I was here anyway on holiday, so I thought I'd try to find out
0:16:40 > 0:16:43if the Me Too movement had left its mark
0:16:43 > 0:16:46on men who choose striptease entertainment for a living.
0:16:46 > 0:16:50I talked to Ryan Kelsey, the Chippendales' dance captain.
0:16:50 > 0:16:54He's 32, and he's been with the company for four years.
0:16:54 > 0:16:57On an average night, how many hands would you say touch you?
0:16:57 > 0:17:02Oh, that is a great question.
0:17:02 > 0:17:06Probably somewhere in the 40, 50 range, I would guess.
0:17:06 > 0:17:10I mean, we run through our crowd, our house holds a max of about 350
0:17:10 > 0:17:13here, so even in a totally full night, if you pass through
0:17:13 > 0:17:15the audience, you're interacting with a bunch of people.
0:17:15 > 0:17:19We call them crowd runs, so my crowd run, you know,
0:17:19 > 0:17:21tries to get to as many people as we can.
0:17:21 > 0:17:24We try not to stay in one area too long
0:17:24 > 0:17:28so everyone gets the maximum Chippendales experience.
0:17:28 > 0:17:30And do you enjoy that? I love it.
0:17:30 > 0:17:31Do you enjoy the touching?
0:17:31 > 0:17:33I do, I do enjoy the touching.
0:17:33 > 0:17:36But it's mostly because...
0:17:36 > 0:17:39It's not so much the touching itself, I mean, people
0:17:39 > 0:17:42are having fun, you know, yes, again, it's cheeky,
0:17:42 > 0:17:50but you see the brightness in their eyes, they're smiling,
0:17:50 > 0:17:52they're laughing, they're giggly, you walk away, they giggle
0:17:52 > 0:17:54with their friends.
0:17:54 > 0:17:57Like it's more the joy that is created from it, rather
0:17:57 > 0:17:58than the actual sensation itself.
0:17:58 > 0:18:00Would you say it makes you feel empowered, then,
0:18:00 > 0:18:03or it doesn't make you feel belittled?
0:18:03 > 0:18:07The big difference here is that, you know, I know what this job is.
0:18:07 > 0:18:09I willingly show up to work every day.
0:18:09 > 0:18:11So it's not a surprise, it's not getting, you know,
0:18:11 > 0:18:13catcalled on the street, maybe something unwanted.
0:18:13 > 0:18:15So it's not belittling to me, because it's voluntary.
0:18:15 > 0:18:17You know what I mean?
0:18:17 > 0:18:20I willingly show up every day, I know what I'm getting in for.
0:18:20 > 0:18:23If I was uncomfortable, then it would be moved me to find
0:18:23 > 0:18:28other work that was more in line with my comfortibility.
0:18:28 > 0:18:29Are there than incidents where the fans
0:18:29 > 0:18:33have got a little too physical?
0:18:33 > 0:18:37Yeah, it has happened, the nails are usually...
0:18:37 > 0:18:42If something happens, which is very rare...
0:18:42 > 0:18:44It's usually out of excitement, they're having fun,
0:18:44 > 0:18:46hands on the chest, they're getting excited,
0:18:46 > 0:18:48and you get a little claw mark,
0:18:48 > 0:18:51but it's usually not from a place of malice or weird intent -
0:18:51 > 0:18:54again, not knowing quite where the line is.
0:18:54 > 0:18:58But you don't come off stage thinking, "That was really painful"?
0:18:58 > 0:19:02I mean, you know, a scratch is a scratch.
0:19:02 > 0:19:05But again, I know where I work, I understand that even though
0:19:05 > 0:19:08that is not really in our rules, that it's in the scope
0:19:08 > 0:19:10of possibility, you know, and if you feel someone
0:19:10 > 0:19:13starts to do it, again, "Hey, no, that is not OK."
0:19:13 > 0:19:16"You can touch, don't do that."
0:19:16 > 0:19:19Do you see yourselves as having the same job
0:19:19 > 0:19:22as female strippers, strip dancers?
0:19:22 > 0:19:25We have no tipping at our show, so there's no dollars,
0:19:25 > 0:19:27there's no interaction based on how much money
0:19:27 > 0:19:29you have that day or that moment.
0:19:29 > 0:19:32It's one of my favourite things about the show.
0:19:32 > 0:19:34So the idea behind the no tipping is that nobody is paying
0:19:34 > 0:19:36for sex or sexual favours?
0:19:36 > 0:19:39Well, not even so much sexual favours,
0:19:39 > 0:19:42it's just you can't even influence, you know, attention,
0:19:42 > 0:19:46you know, if someone, you know, if someone is well off
0:19:46 > 0:19:51and well to do, they can't just...
0:19:51 > 0:19:53I'm sure it would spread very quickly through the cast,
0:19:53 > 0:19:56"My God, this lady is loaded, she's throwing out 20s,
0:19:56 > 0:19:58she's throwing out hundreds," and we could gravitate there.
0:19:58 > 0:20:01Somebody else who maybe saved up their whole allowance for weeks
0:20:01 > 0:20:03and months and got this trip to Vegas and barely scraped by
0:20:03 > 0:20:11to get our show could get ignored.
0:20:12 > 0:20:15The Me Too movement has raised awareness of the way women
0:20:15 > 0:20:16have been abused or objectified.
0:20:16 > 0:20:19Does the question also need to be asked about men, do you think?
0:20:19 > 0:20:20These kind of roles?
0:20:20 > 0:20:23Well, I mean, I think it is, in general, great to...
0:20:23 > 0:20:27I love what the Me Too movement is doing, and I love the amount
0:20:27 > 0:20:31of awareness it's created, including in myself.
0:20:31 > 0:20:33You know, I like theoretically knew some of my friends' stories,
0:20:33 > 0:20:36but watching them actually type them out on Facebook, and hearing them,
0:20:36 > 0:20:42just made it tangible to something I haven't experienced.
0:20:42 > 0:20:46As far as it relates to our show, again, kind of like I said earlier,
0:20:46 > 0:20:47I think it's a little different,
0:20:47 > 0:20:50because we are voluntary participants, you know what I mean?
0:20:50 > 0:20:55You're not going about your day, you're not getting a coffee,
0:20:55 > 0:20:58or even thinking you're on a nice date and get forced into a corner,
0:20:58 > 0:21:01your theoretical or your literal back against a wall,
0:21:01 > 0:21:03trying to escape.
0:21:03 > 0:21:07This is somewhere I choose to work, I choose to be employed here.
0:21:07 > 0:21:09So I think, you know, just participating in that way
0:21:09 > 0:21:15changes the dynamic.
0:21:15 > 0:21:19You know, I know that I'm going to be looked at
0:21:19 > 0:21:22just strictly for my muscles, but I've engaged in that
0:21:22 > 0:21:23agreement, I work here.
0:21:23 > 0:21:28Do you feel objectified?
0:21:28 > 0:21:31No, because, again, I'm participating, so I feel like
0:21:31 > 0:21:34I'm being admired for my physicality, you know what I mean?
0:21:34 > 0:21:38Objectification means someone is reducing you against your will,
0:21:38 > 0:21:45which is not against my will, like, hey, I worked hard,
0:21:45 > 0:21:51I did some push-ups, and I enjoy it, you're enjoying it,
0:21:51 > 0:21:55it's going to be wonderful symbiotic relationship.
0:21:55 > 0:22:00That is what's so great, that if you're not OK with that,
0:22:00 > 0:22:03you can go get a different job, you can work somewhere else where
0:22:03 > 0:22:05you're going to feel comfortable, which is what's different
0:22:05 > 0:22:07from the Me Too thing.
0:22:07 > 0:22:10You know, if everyone, you know, trying to crack into Hollywood
0:22:10 > 0:22:11has to go through Harvey Weinstein,
0:22:11 > 0:22:15it's a little bit of a tougher situation.
0:22:15 > 0:22:18We've seen a move in the UK, the disappearance, we hear,
0:22:18 > 0:22:21of grid girls or walk-on girls or the same in boxing -
0:22:21 > 0:22:26what is your sense, is that a move in the right direction,
0:22:26 > 0:22:30or do think that is a denial of...?
0:22:30 > 0:22:32Yeah, it's complicated, because if anyone of those girls
0:22:32 > 0:22:35was, you know, proud to do that, proud to be there,
0:22:35 > 0:22:38may be proud of their body, you know, enjoy the money,
0:22:38 > 0:22:40thought it was easy, thought it was a fun job -
0:22:40 > 0:22:43if they were there 100% voluntarily, then it's hard to argue against it.
0:22:43 > 0:22:48But that said, though, things have been clearly,
0:22:48 > 0:22:51as all the stories are coming out, things have been wrong for so long,
0:22:51 > 0:22:55you know, that we might need to overcompensate for a while
0:22:55 > 0:23:02before we find the middle ground that we all want to live at.
0:23:02 > 0:23:05So just a basic premise of taking away something that looks,
0:23:05 > 0:23:07on the surface, especially because females have been
0:23:07 > 0:23:10repressed for so long, I know there is a lot of guys
0:23:10 > 0:23:15with stories too, but as a whole females have been pushed back
0:23:15 > 0:23:18or been objectified so many times and so often that, you know,
0:23:18 > 0:23:20things that sort of personified that old guard might need
0:23:20 > 0:23:25to drop off for a second.
0:23:25 > 0:23:28So like socially I feel one way, then towards individual rights
0:23:28 > 0:23:35I feel another - it's tricky.
0:23:35 > 0:23:38That was the Chippendales dance
0:23:38 > 0:23:41That was the Chippendales dance captain, Ryan Kelsey.
0:23:41 > 0:23:43One of the stories of the last election was Labour winning
0:23:43 > 0:23:44heavily amongst the young.
0:23:44 > 0:23:47Today was time for the Tory fightback with a speech
0:23:47 > 0:23:49from the Prime Minister in Derby on higher and further education.
0:23:49 > 0:23:52The current system, she explained, is broken, and her government
0:23:52 > 0:23:55is working out a way to fix it, just as soon as the review
0:23:55 > 0:23:57she ordered today wraps up in 12 months' time.
0:23:57 > 0:23:58So what happens now?
0:23:58 > 0:24:01Chris Cook been covering education since the last such review in 2010,
0:24:01 > 0:24:02and he's with me now.
0:24:02 > 0:24:08What do you think of all this, then, Chris?
0:24:08 > 0:24:13Well, the big thing today from the sector is just a sort of weary sigh.
0:24:13 > 0:24:20Starting in 2010, we had the Browne review now to reshape the system,
0:24:20 > 0:24:24then we raised fees, we got rid of the rules on how big universities
0:24:24 > 0:24:30could be, then we introduced this teaching excellence, giving gongs to
0:24:30 > 0:24:33universities for academic teaching, huge structural reforms. And we have
0:24:33 > 0:24:37this enormous evidence base about how it is working, there is an
0:24:37 > 0:24:40active conversation within higher education on how to reform itself,
0:24:40 > 0:24:45so there is a sense of, we know all of this, ministers just have to
0:24:45 > 0:24:53choose. And this review goes into further education, where the
0:24:53 > 0:24:56situation is more extreme. They had their last big structural review on
0:24:56 > 0:24:58further education only 18 months ago, so recently that the
0:24:58 > 0:25:01consultation on how to implement that review only closed 11 days ago.
0:25:01 > 0:25:05We are literally going from review into review, back-to-back, without
0:25:05 > 0:25:09any time in between.
0:25:09 > 0:25:13With me in the studio is Universities Minister Sam Gyimah.
0:25:13 > 0:25:18This must be very frustrating for you as a new minister, to hotfoot
0:25:18 > 0:25:22from one change, one reform, straight into a new one, it doesn't
0:25:22 > 0:25:30instil confidence, does it?It is a time of opportunity. I think Chris
0:25:30 > 0:25:34Meares characterised the opportunity, but since 2010 a lot of
0:25:34 > 0:25:38us happened in higher education, we have more disadvantaged people going
0:25:38 > 0:25:42to university than ever before as a result of those changes.Should it
0:25:42 > 0:25:46be more or fewer, what do you think? We also have world-class
0:25:46 > 0:25:52universities, four in the top ten, so these reviews have actually
0:25:52 > 0:25:58brought...So should it be more now or fewer, is the number about right,
0:25:58 > 0:26:01the number going to university?We are not capping aspiration, we want
0:26:01 > 0:26:07anyone who is capable going to university.Does that mean more
0:26:07 > 0:26:13people?The numbers that can go to university as no limit, we do not
0:26:13 > 0:26:17put a limit.You must have a broad idea whether this feels like the
0:26:17 > 0:26:20right number or whether people are going to university when they should
0:26:20 > 0:26:25be doing more practical courses, more practical degrees, or do you
0:26:25 > 0:26:29think it is about right? What is your sense?What the Prime Minister
0:26:29 > 0:26:34said, and what I agree with, is that we want more options at the 18th
0:26:34 > 0:26:38stage, and you do not want the default to be university, because if
0:26:38 > 0:26:42you do not go, you do not feel bright enough, and that means having
0:26:42 > 0:26:46more technical options, there are some great technical options within
0:26:46 > 0:26:49universities, like Southbank University, not far away, great
0:26:49 > 0:26:54technical options in construction, but there are also technical options
0:26:54 > 0:26:58outside of universities, and within the system we want different types
0:26:58 > 0:27:02of options, two year degrees, community degrees, degree
0:27:02 > 0:27:02of options, two year degrees, community degrees, degree and
0:27:02 > 0:27:05apprenticeshipsand the Secretary of State was
0:27:05 > 0:27:08apprenticeshipsand the Secretary of State was signalling at the weekend,
0:27:08 > 0:27:12courses varying depending on cost, benefit they give to our country,
0:27:12 > 0:27:17you are backing that, are you?There is a review, there is a panel which
0:27:17 > 0:27:22will make recommendations. There is no point in writing the outcome of
0:27:22 > 0:27:27the review before the review.But you here to tell us something, you
0:27:27 > 0:27:33are presumably backing your boss.If you would bear with me, there are
0:27:33 > 0:27:36500,000 people accept the university place every year. It can't be that
0:27:36 > 0:27:40all of them have the same desires and aspirations when it comes to the
0:27:40 > 0:27:44type of course they have to study. And yet the default option at most
0:27:44 > 0:27:49of our institutions is three years on campus, pulled agree, and we say
0:27:49 > 0:27:56there should be more variety.You have me that point well, but one of
0:27:56 > 0:27:59the things we heard was that fees should vary according to cost,
0:27:59 > 0:28:02according to the benefits to the individual and the benefit they give
0:28:02 > 0:28:07our country. Would you back that?I think the review should look at it.
0:28:07 > 0:28:11The review should definitely look at value for money that every course
0:28:11 > 0:28:17provides for the student.So if you are looking, for example, at value
0:28:17 > 0:28:21for money, you might say an English degree would have a lower rate of
0:28:21 > 0:28:28return than a science degree?How do you know that?Well, I am asking, it
0:28:28 > 0:28:31is not your idea, your Secretary of State has said we will look at cost
0:28:31 > 0:28:37and benefits to the country, so is that something you can quantify?
0:28:37 > 0:28:42Steve Jobs studied calligraphy. Who would have known the value of that?
0:28:42 > 0:28:46So you cannot agree with your own boss, right?It is not for ministers
0:28:46 > 0:28:52to say which causes have value, but it is right for a review to look at
0:28:52 > 0:28:56the different courses, different institutions, and the returns, for
0:28:56 > 0:29:01independent experts to look at it and make recommendations.Would
0:29:01 > 0:29:05independent experts decide, if you like, a pecking order of degrees
0:29:05 > 0:29:09that you value? Will some be worth more to the country and some less?
0:29:09 > 0:29:15Of course not.I don't understand it, then. What is the point of
0:29:15 > 0:29:18getting independent reviewers to decide that some degrees with more
0:29:18 > 0:29:24and some less?I think you can look at is, does every different
0:29:24 > 0:29:26institution have different offerings? Every institution does
0:29:26 > 0:29:29not have to have the same offering for every subject across the
0:29:29 > 0:29:34country, it can have diversity of provision. You can have English in
0:29:34 > 0:29:39one university that is a two year degree, in another it is three
0:29:39 > 0:29:42years. They will not prescribe that they can look at what has happened
0:29:42 > 0:29:45across the system and look at ways in which we can have that diversity
0:29:45 > 0:29:48of choice.
0:29:48 > 0:29:53What are you doing in the education department, then? The sector has
0:29:53 > 0:29:58been in the state of reform since 2010. We know the options. We know
0:29:58 > 0:30:04you've looked at them for years. New stuff happens every year and now you
0:30:04 > 0:30:08have to make the choices, you have to show leadership on theirs.I
0:30:08 > 0:30:14think you've misunderstood what has happened. In 2012, a big move, the
0:30:14 > 0:30:20student invested a huge amount of money in their own education. As a
0:30:20 > 0:30:24result of that change, the whole architecture around student finance
0:30:24 > 0:30:28had to change and we had to go through a system...And now you've
0:30:28 > 0:30:37decided that change was the wrong one.Can I finish? The architecture.
0:30:37 > 0:30:40For example, if students are now investing their money, someone needs
0:30:40 > 0:30:44to be there to make sure they are getting value for money and that is
0:30:44 > 0:30:50why we have a new regulator coming into force. Those changes were
0:30:50 > 0:30:54necessary to reflect those changes. No one is saying £9,000 is wrong. A
0:30:54 > 0:30:58good degree is a good investment. The point is you're making it very
0:30:58 > 0:31:02easy for Labour now and making them happy...I think you are making it
0:31:02 > 0:31:07very easy for Labour.He is the point. If you are confident in what
0:31:07 > 0:31:12your project was, and if you're confident because you are in power
0:31:12 > 0:31:19for a long time... You've been unable to tell me anything.We
0:31:19 > 0:31:24know... We know that if you make university education free, the
0:31:24 > 0:31:32numbers will be capped and therefore it will be exclusive. Ward
0:31:32 > 0:31:35Mandelson, a former Labour minister, said it would be a bonanza for the
0:31:35 > 0:31:41well off. That is the labour offer. Our offer is we want world-class
0:31:41 > 0:31:44universities that are properly funded, open to the disadvantaged.
0:31:44 > 0:31:49You're
0:31:49 > 0:31:53You're -- I'm going to invite you back in 12 months and ask you what
0:31:53 > 0:31:57you've decided about. Thank you very much.
0:31:57 > 0:31:59The Icelandic parliament is considering legislation that
0:31:59 > 0:32:01would make male circumcision illegal, the first country
0:32:01 > 0:32:02in Europe to do so.
0:32:02 > 0:32:04It would jail any practitioner of the surgical operation
0:32:04 > 0:32:05for up to six years.
0:32:05 > 0:32:08Muslims and Jews both practice male circumcision on newborn babies.
0:32:08 > 0:32:11Leaders of both faiths have condemned the plans as an attack
0:32:11 > 0:32:12on religious freedom.
0:32:12 > 0:32:16So, is it a violation of the rights of boys too young to choose?
0:32:16 > 0:32:22Or an unnecessary and alienating cultural ban?
0:32:22 > 0:32:25Joining me now is Jonathan Arkush, who is President of the Board
0:32:25 > 0:32:32of Deputies of British Jews, and Dr Antony Lempert, a GP and
0:32:32 > 0:32:36Chair of the Secular Medical Forum, is in our Birmingham studio.
0:32:36 > 0:32:38Dr Antony Lempert, would you, do you feel uncomfortable
0:32:38 > 0:32:46performing these operations?
0:32:49 > 0:32:53Certainly, every operation that any doctor or surgeon performed should
0:32:53 > 0:32:57have a valid medical reason and the absence of one, the person
0:32:57 > 0:33:00themselves should be in the position to give consent to that. Children of
0:33:00 > 0:33:08a young age are not yet mature enough to have the capacity to
0:33:08 > 0:33:13consent to this procedure. And every procedure has risks but particularly
0:33:13 > 0:33:19a procedure on the most intimate part of a child's body should be
0:33:19 > 0:33:23something a person chooses for themselves.Let me ask you, you were
0:33:23 > 0:33:27brought up in a Jewish home, you understand the cultural significance
0:33:27 > 0:33:34this means to dues and Muslims.I do understand it and I realise that
0:33:34 > 0:33:38many people... Actually haven't given it much thought because I was
0:33:38 > 0:33:44one of them. Even into adulthood. It wasn't something you gave much
0:33:44 > 0:33:48thought, it was a minor slip that didn't cause much harm. The reality,
0:33:48 > 0:33:53when you look at the evidence is quite different. This is something
0:33:53 > 0:33:58that if you ask many intact men would you like us to snip of this
0:33:58 > 0:34:02bit of body, they'd say, no! This is one of the most sensitive and
0:34:02 > 0:34:09important parts of my body. And, really, to assume any child is going
0:34:09 > 0:34:12to belong to the religion of their parents and even if they choose that
0:34:12 > 0:34:17belief, they are going to want to have a branding procedure, to be
0:34:17 > 0:34:26marked. It is extraordinary.Do you accept we don't think about that
0:34:26 > 0:34:30enough, that people go ahead with that procedure because it is ritual
0:34:30 > 0:34:34and cultural, they don't think?As a Jewish father myself
0:34:34 > 0:34:40of a son, I absolutely thought about it, as did my wife, and we had no
0:34:40 > 0:34:45doubt whatsoever we wanted our son brought up in traditional Jewish
0:34:45 > 0:34:51religious values and complying with what we understand to be the divine
0:34:51 > 0:34:55commandment in the Torah.If you hadn't gone ahead with it, how would
0:34:55 > 0:34:59you have felt, your wife and your son have felt?I wouldn't have
0:34:59 > 0:35:04wanted my son to have grown up with other Jewish boys, going into the
0:35:04 > 0:35:08changing rooms, swimming pool and being different. I wouldn't have
0:35:08 > 0:35:16thanked my parents if, under Antony Lempert's rule, and 16 I was asked
0:35:16 > 0:35:20whether I want the procedure, and told it is painful and hazardous. I
0:35:20 > 0:35:26much rather they did it at eight days old and I thank them that they
0:35:26 > 0:35:33did it.You pulled it branding a second ago. Identity, that is what
0:35:33 > 0:35:37Jonathan is talking about, isn't it? It is forcing your child to adopt
0:35:37 > 0:35:44the identity of its parents choice. We do it all the time, whether it is
0:35:44 > 0:35:47the language we teach them or their religion whether or not we pierce
0:35:47 > 0:35:53their ears, all of these are choices we make.Any permanent modification
0:35:53 > 0:35:56is something that shouldn't be done by parents. Parents should share
0:35:56 > 0:36:00their values with their children but there are limits to this. Sharing
0:36:00 > 0:36:05ideas is one thing but making a permanent bodily change particularly
0:36:05 > 0:36:10to the most intimate part is really going too far and breaks all the
0:36:10 > 0:36:13codes of child safeguarding that I am involved in. I'd like to say one
0:36:13 > 0:36:18more thing...It is the irreversibility, isn't it, that
0:36:18 > 0:36:25makes this different thing else, a child has no chance and no choice.I
0:36:25 > 0:36:29don't know any Jewish boy who would ever want to reverse it. We are
0:36:29 > 0:36:35proud of the way we look, it is integral to our core values and our
0:36:35 > 0:36:41identity, and I am delighted that my parents enabled me to have the
0:36:41 > 0:36:44procedure, to be part of that identity and I wouldn't want to have
0:36:44 > 0:36:49to choose.If Iceland goes ahead and the parliament bans it, how will you
0:36:49 > 0:36:54feel about that?The most amazing thing is that Iceland is a liberal
0:36:54 > 0:36:59country and is doing something something extremely liberal. Just
0:36:59 > 0:37:03banning something because you don't approve it. Why don't you ban
0:37:03 > 0:37:07smoking which causes real harm, including two people that don't
0:37:07 > 0:37:10smoke?I wonder what message the Icelandic parliament sends out by
0:37:10 > 0:37:16doing this?I think it sends out a message of protecting religious
0:37:16 > 0:37:21freedom. True religious freedom means allowing people to choose for
0:37:21 > 0:37:23themselves. Jonathan Arkush articulated it well when he said I
0:37:23 > 0:37:29don't know any Jewish boy who... I do remember his final sentence, that
0:37:29 > 0:37:33doesn't like it. He ignores the people that don't want it because
0:37:33 > 0:37:40perhaps they are not Jewish or... There are a lot of Jewish people
0:37:40 > 0:37:44having a peaceful welcome ceremony into the world without cutting a bit
0:37:44 > 0:37:48of body.Is it possible to go through the understanding and
0:37:48 > 0:37:54ceremony without getting surgical? Not in Jewish religious law. And it
0:37:54 > 0:38:01is an attack on religious freedom in Iceland, not a protection. It is a
0:38:01 > 0:38:05straightforward attack and the Bishop of Reykjavik, and the
0:38:05 > 0:38:07catholic bishops of Europe, have criticised this ban as an
0:38:07 > 0:38:11infringement of religious freedom and they are right to do so.
0:38:11 > 0:38:18Gentlemen, thank you very much indeed. Let's take you through the
0:38:18 > 0:38:22front pages of the papers and we start with the Guardian, which you
0:38:22 > 0:38:28heard from Nick talks about that Mad Max dystopia or rather what David
0:38:28 > 0:38:32Davis is promising Brexit will not be. And then they've got a picture
0:38:32 > 0:38:37of Britain's
0:38:40 > 0:38:43of Britain's most schnmoozed councillor. In the Times, the
0:38:43 > 0:38:47University strike puts the final exams in danger. And an Oxfam chief
0:38:47 > 0:38:54investigated over the sex claims. And our interview with the
0:38:54 > 0:38:59Chippendales at the top. The Daily Telegraph, call been urged to
0:38:59 > 0:39:05relieve his Stasi file. Theresa May puts the Labour leader under
0:39:05 > 0:39:08pressure to authorise release of East German records. He is denying
0:39:08 > 0:39:12all of that, it goes without saying. That is all we have time for
0:39:12 > 0:39:14tonight.
0:39:14 > 0:39:17We'd like to reflect on the fowl news that might have troubled
0:39:17 > 0:39:19many of you who felt a bit peckish today.
0:39:19 > 0:39:22KFC were forced to close most of their 900 restaurants
0:39:22 > 0:39:25after the firm had its wings clipped by a shortage of chicken.
0:39:25 > 0:39:27The news ruffled more than a few feathers across country
0:39:27 > 0:39:30but there was one group who may have felt relieved that, for now
0:39:30 > 0:39:33at least, they won't be kicking the bucket.
0:39:33 > 0:39:35I promise you I didn't write these.
0:39:35 > 0:39:38We leave you with a chick flick made specially for Newsnight viewers.
0:39:38 > 0:39:40Goodnight.
0:39:40 > 0:39:48MUSIC: "One Day I'll Fly Away" by Randy Crawford
0:39:51 > 0:39:58# One day I'll fly away
0:39:58 > 0:40:04# Leave your love to yesterday
0:40:04 > 0:40:09# What more can your love do for me?
0:40:09 > 0:40:17# When will love be through with me? #