0:00:06 > 0:00:09The scandal in the charity sector claims its biggest scalp yet.
0:00:09 > 0:00:17Unicef's Justin Forsyth steps down.
0:00:19 > 0:00:22Quitting not because of past mistakes but because, he says,
0:00:22 > 0:00:24he didn't want to damage the organisation further.
0:00:24 > 0:00:25But is too late?
0:00:25 > 0:00:28We hear from a colleague of his from Save the Children
0:00:28 > 0:00:33who thinks he got what he deserved.
0:00:33 > 0:00:34Thank you very much.
0:00:34 > 0:00:36I don't think I'll be going up against them.
0:00:36 > 0:00:38I really think the NRA wants to do what's right.
0:00:38 > 0:00:44President Trump calls for an age restriction on buying guns -
0:00:44 > 0:00:50but will he still think the same tomorrow?
0:00:50 > 0:00:53Students demand tighter gun laws, the head of the National Rifle
0:00:53 > 0:00:57Association weighs in.
0:00:57 > 0:00:58If these so-called European socialists take
0:00:58 > 0:01:02over the House and the Senate and, God forbid, they get
0:01:02 > 0:01:05the White House again, our American freedoms could be lost and our
0:01:05 > 0:01:13country will be changed for ever.
0:01:13 > 0:01:15Is it possible we are under-medicating those with
0:01:15 > 0:01:18depression in this country?
0:01:18 > 0:01:26I didn't want to be mentally unwell and I felt that it was a stigma
0:01:34 > 0:01:37to take the drugs and that if I took the drugs it
0:01:37 > 0:01:39would confirm I was ill.
0:01:39 > 0:01:41We speak to the Royal College of GPS and to a psychotherapist
0:01:41 > 0:01:43who believes in talk not pills.
0:01:43 > 0:01:46Good evening.
0:01:46 > 0:01:48world has stepped down
0:01:48 > 0:01:51from his job in a sector already reeling from allegations
0:01:51 > 0:01:52of inappropriate sexual behaviour.
0:01:52 > 0:01:56Justin Forsyth - deputy director of Unicef -
0:01:56 > 0:01:59resigned from his role tonight just days after the BBC reported that
0:01:59 > 0:02:02while he was chief executive at Save the Children he sent
0:02:02 > 0:02:08unsolicited texts to female members of staff.
0:02:08 > 0:02:10He specified in a statement that he was leaving Unicef
0:02:10 > 0:02:13"because of the danger of damaging both Unicef and Save the Children
0:02:13 > 0:02:16and our wider cause" - insisting he had already offered
0:02:16 > 0:02:20unreserved apologies to the women involved at the time.
0:02:20 > 0:02:22Unicef is just the latest charity to have found itself
0:02:22 > 0:02:24caught up in the scandal.
0:02:24 > 0:02:26This evening, the Haitian government announced it would temporarily
0:02:26 > 0:02:28revoke Oxfam's right to operate in the country after the charity
0:02:28 > 0:02:30confirmed several members of staff had admitted
0:02:30 > 0:02:31to sexual misconduct there.
0:02:31 > 0:02:33How damaging is all this becoming to the charity sector?
0:02:33 > 0:02:36Here's Chris Cook.
0:02:36 > 0:02:40Over the past few weeks we've had revelations about Oxfam.
0:02:40 > 0:02:44Then, the management of Save the Children.
0:02:44 > 0:02:48Brendan Cox, widow of Jo Cox, has already conceded
0:02:48 > 0:02:52that his behaviour towards women at that charity was inappropriate.
0:02:52 > 0:02:54And now, one of his former colleagues has resigned
0:02:54 > 0:02:56from his current role at Unicef.
0:02:56 > 0:03:03Justin Forsyth, who ran Save the Children, said
0:03:03 > 0:03:11in a statement today that:
0:03:26 > 0:03:32But Mr Forsyth's resignation follows a major revelation by Radio 4's PM.
0:03:32 > 0:03:34The programme learned that there were three separate
0:03:34 > 0:03:37complaints of him sending inappropriate text messages
0:03:37 > 0:03:39and making comments about female employees' appearance
0:03:39 > 0:03:42at Save the Children.
0:03:42 > 0:03:47Mr Forsyth's account of his behaviour at the charity had
0:03:47 > 0:03:49always stated that there had been no formal complaints and he'd
0:03:49 > 0:03:51apologised to those concerned.
0:03:51 > 0:03:54Mr Forsyth has been a central figure in British aid over
0:03:54 > 0:03:55the past decade or so.
0:03:55 > 0:03:58You may remember this disastrous moment as Gordon Brown was recorded
0:03:58 > 0:04:06discussing a member of the public with an aide.
0:04:10 > 0:04:13That aide was Mr Forsyth, who'd then been working
0:04:13 > 0:04:16on development for six years in Downing Street.
0:04:16 > 0:04:19As the chief executive of Save the Children,
0:04:19 > 0:04:23he became a major figure in that field.
0:04:23 > 0:04:27Since leaving Save the Children in 2016 he became the deputy
0:04:27 > 0:04:29executive director of Unicef and the UN Assistant
0:04:29 > 0:04:33Secretary General.
0:04:33 > 0:04:35Those are the jobs he has now left.
0:04:35 > 0:04:37The ripples from the global movement against harassment
0:04:37 > 0:04:41continue to spread.
0:04:41 > 0:04:44Earlier, I spoke to Bri O Kieff, who worked at Save the Children
0:04:44 > 0:04:45between 2011 and 2013.
0:04:45 > 0:04:48She told me about her experience of the working environment
0:04:48 > 0:04:53under Justin Forsyth.
0:04:53 > 0:04:56Justinc came in with a mandate to lead and shake things
0:04:56 > 0:04:57up and make us more
0:04:57 > 0:05:01aggressive and that's what he did but a side effect of that was also
0:05:01 > 0:05:03that certain toxic leadership behaviours were tolerated.
0:05:03 > 0:05:07That included temper tantrums, yelling,
0:05:07 > 0:05:12disrespectful behaviour, being on call at all hours and no
0:05:12 > 0:05:14way for any upward accountability or feedback to
0:05:14 > 0:05:17be brought through.
0:05:17 > 0:05:21Worse than any threat to your job, should you
0:05:21 > 0:05:24question things, you would be sidelined from some of the best
0:05:24 > 0:05:28projects.
0:05:28 > 0:05:30In this atmosphere, a really toxic culture grew.
0:05:30 > 0:05:32I guess he is taking responsibility for his
0:05:32 > 0:05:33actions now, isn't he?
0:05:33 > 0:05:36He resigned from Unicef saying he doesn't want
0:05:36 > 0:05:39any more damage to the sector or the industry,
0:05:39 > 0:05:41even though he says he
0:05:41 > 0:05:49made his apologies at Save the Children,
0:05:50 > 0:05:52dealt with through a proper process many years ago.
0:05:52 > 0:05:55I do think that Justin has done a better job of
0:05:55 > 0:05:57apologising unreservedly for the incidents that he created
0:05:57 > 0:05:58but he hasn't taken responsibility for the
0:05:58 > 0:06:00repercussions to the people who were involved,
0:06:00 > 0:06:01which I don't think have
0:06:01 > 0:06:05come to light, mostly because those victims want to remain anonymous.
0:06:05 > 0:06:07But he hasn't taken any responsibility for the culture he
0:06:07 > 0:06:09fostered at Save the Children.
0:06:09 > 0:06:12What was the impact, do you think, on the
0:06:12 > 0:06:17charity and the sector itself more widely?
0:06:17 > 0:06:20I love Save the Children, I loved working there and I've been
0:06:20 > 0:06:22haunted for a long time by this experience.
0:06:22 > 0:06:26One of the things that kept many of us from speaking out
0:06:26 > 0:06:28earlier was a desire to protect the organisation that we loved.
0:06:28 > 0:06:31There was no way for us to speak publicly
0:06:31 > 0:06:34about the behaviour of Justin, Brendan and others who have still
0:06:34 > 0:06:36not been named, without damaging an organisation we love.
0:06:36 > 0:06:40We are in an atmosphere, a political atmosphere,
0:06:40 > 0:06:44where many people want to and are capitalising upon these
0:06:44 > 0:06:48these crises in order to push an anti-immigrant,
0:06:48 > 0:06:51anti-global agenda and that is not what I want to see happen.
0:06:51 > 0:06:56But I do want to see reform in our sector, I
0:06:56 > 0:06:58want to see immoral behaviours by powerful
0:06:58 > 0:06:59people being addressed and
0:06:59 > 0:07:02this will improve the charities' work over the long-term.
0:07:02 > 0:07:04You said others that have not been named, you
0:07:04 > 0:07:07can't name them here, but how many others
0:07:07 > 0:07:12are you thinking of that were
0:07:12 > 0:07:18behaving in that way similar to that when you worked there?
0:07:18 > 0:07:21There are probably a handful within Save the
0:07:21 > 0:07:24Children and then there are other charities who I believe need to take
0:07:24 > 0:07:31a good long look at themselves.
0:07:31 > 0:07:32Senior people
0:07:32 > 0:07:33have been treating other people.
0:07:33 > 0:07:34At the very top of the organisation?
0:07:34 > 0:07:36At the very top.
0:07:36 > 0:07:38Alongside, like with the Oxfam scandal and Haiti, there
0:07:38 > 0:07:40are a lot of cases of people on the ground
0:07:40 > 0:07:47level abusing the poorest and
0:07:47 > 0:07:49most vulnerable, who are in desperate need of services.
0:07:49 > 0:07:53These are apples and oranges but they are
0:07:53 > 0:07:56still fruit and that you have people serving the most vulnerable who need
0:07:56 > 0:07:59food and water and shelter and they are being exploited.
0:07:59 > 0:08:01And then you have ambitious young career people
0:08:01 > 0:08:02working in London who are idealistic,
0:08:02 > 0:08:10but they also end up exploited and
0:08:10 > 0:08:12all that is about power and the patriarchy.
0:08:12 > 0:08:14When people put to you, as I'm sure they do,
0:08:14 > 0:08:17that Justin Forsyth massively raised donations coming in,
0:08:17 > 0:08:18that he was a force for enormous good in
0:08:18 > 0:08:20the time he worked for the
0:08:20 > 0:08:21charity, what is your response?
0:08:21 > 0:08:23What is challenging about all of these issues
0:08:23 > 0:08:25is that people can be both
0:08:25 > 0:08:28good and bad all at once and I feel similarly about Brendan.
0:08:28 > 0:08:30I loved working with him for a long time, he
0:08:30 > 0:08:32was actually very professional and courteous in the office.
0:08:32 > 0:08:35But it was an open secret that he was up to no
0:08:35 > 0:08:38good outside of the office and somehow we were all groomed into
0:08:38 > 0:08:41keeping this secret for him, as the price we had to pay to do
0:08:41 > 0:08:44very good work around the world.
0:08:44 > 0:08:47I feel complicit in that and that's one of
0:08:47 > 0:08:50the reasons I'm speaking out now.
0:08:50 > 0:08:55This may be used as a stick by those who oppose
0:08:55 > 0:08:57the foreign aid budget, to politically speak out now, to say,
0:08:57 > 0:08:59we told you so.
0:08:59 > 0:09:04And I would say that for those critics, their own
0:09:04 > 0:09:06industries and causes close to their hearts are not
0:09:06 > 0:09:08immune to these scandals.
0:09:08 > 0:09:12This is not a development sector problem, it isn't an
0:09:12 > 0:09:17international aid problem, it is a society problem.
0:09:17 > 0:09:22And they should be careful as they move forward how
0:09:22 > 0:09:28viciously they attack these things because we don't know what industry
0:09:28 > 0:09:30the Me Too movement is going to hit next.
0:09:30 > 0:09:34And a whole generation of younger female staff are growing up
0:09:34 > 0:09:38and feeling bolder and bolder and I would count myself in those ranks
0:09:38 > 0:09:42and we aren't going to keep quiet for much longer.
0:09:42 > 0:09:45I want to say that the work that Save the Children and
0:09:45 > 0:09:48Oxfam does is vital, it is often unpopular
0:09:48 > 0:09:51but it is desperately needed.
0:09:51 > 0:09:59While people may be taking advantage of the crisis I hope that
0:10:03 > 0:10:06what comes out of the process is sunlight that
0:10:06 > 0:10:06disinfects it and makes
0:10:06 > 0:10:07us better going forward.
0:10:07 > 0:10:08Thank you very much.
0:10:08 > 0:10:09Bri O Kieff there.
0:10:09 > 0:10:14Justin Forsyth said in his statement tonight that he did not resign
0:10:14 > 0:10:22from Unicef because of the mistakes he made at Save the Children.
0:10:23 > 0:10:24They were dealt with through a proper
0:10:24 > 0:10:26process many years ago, and he apologised
0:10:26 > 0:10:27unreservedly at the time.
0:10:27 > 0:10:30Save the Children said it had commissioned "a root and branch
0:10:30 > 0:10:32review of the organisational culture" at the charity "addressing
0:10:32 > 0:10:33any behavioural challenges among senior leadership".
0:10:33 > 0:10:36President Trump has said the age limit for buying all guns
0:10:36 > 0:10:37should be 21 years old.
0:10:37 > 0:10:39By tomorrow, that may have changed.
0:10:39 > 0:10:42Anyone looking for consistency from America's commander-in-chief
0:10:42 > 0:10:45on one of the most critical issues of the age may be short-changed.
0:10:45 > 0:10:48Last night, just before we came on air, he declared schools
0:10:48 > 0:10:52could be safer if certain teachers were armed.
0:10:52 > 0:10:54This morning, he'd denied it in a tweet.
0:10:54 > 0:10:56By this evening it was back on the cards -
0:10:56 > 0:10:58a great deterrent, he confirmed.
0:10:58 > 0:11:01For those American students who demand change -
0:11:01 > 0:11:05showing a maturity and a commitment to ending school mass murders that
0:11:05 > 0:11:08may put their elders to shame - the mixed messages will offer
0:11:08 > 0:11:09nothing but frustration.
0:11:09 > 0:11:12The financial and electoral power of many of America's
0:11:12 > 0:11:15legislators lies in the hands of the National Rifle Association.
0:11:15 > 0:11:19Today their chief told the Conservative conference the anti
0:11:19 > 0:11:21gun lobby were socialists, intent on taking away
0:11:21 > 0:11:28American freedom.
0:11:28 > 0:11:30Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be your name.
0:11:30 > 0:11:38He prayed, and then he listened.
0:11:40 > 0:11:43I was born into a world where I never got to experience safety.
0:11:43 > 0:11:44And peace.
0:11:44 > 0:11:46And I don't understand why I can still go
0:11:46 > 0:11:49in a store and buy a weapon of war.
0:11:49 > 0:11:52I'm from Stoneman Douglas high school and I was there
0:11:52 > 0:11:53during the shooting and
0:11:53 > 0:11:56I'm a survivor.
0:11:56 > 0:11:58This was a chance for the president to show he got it,
0:11:58 > 0:12:02even if it required a crib sheet to remind him what to say.
0:12:02 > 0:12:07We heard from a father who lost his daughter
0:12:07 > 0:12:13in the Florida shooting and vowed that America must change.
0:12:13 > 0:12:15We are here because my daughter has no voice.
0:12:15 > 0:12:16She was murdered last week.
0:12:16 > 0:12:24You go to the airport I can't get on a plane with
0:12:27 > 0:12:29but we leave some animal to walk
0:12:29 > 0:12:30into a school and shoot our
0:12:30 > 0:12:32children.
0:12:32 > 0:12:34And from a girl who asked for the conversation to become less
0:12:34 > 0:12:36polarised, more open to thoughtful debate.
0:12:36 > 0:12:39Our world right now is stuck on what they believe and they don't
0:12:39 > 0:12:40listen to what other people believe.
0:12:40 > 0:12:43And then, after an hour or so of listening,
0:12:43 > 0:12:44the president spoke.
0:12:44 > 0:12:45This is what he said.
0:12:45 > 0:12:46It's called concealed carry, where a teacher
0:12:46 > 0:12:52would have a concealed gun on them.
0:12:52 > 0:12:54They'd go for special training and then they would be
0:12:54 > 0:12:55there and you would no longer
0:12:55 > 0:12:57have a gun free zone.
0:12:57 > 0:13:00It was the only line anyone would quote.
0:13:00 > 0:13:04This morning it transpired he hadn't said
0:13:04 > 0:13:08it at all, it was simply the fake old media who got it wrong.
0:13:08 > 0:13:11Again.
0:13:11 > 0:13:14By tonight he decided maybe he had said it anyway.
0:13:14 > 0:13:15Anyway, it was a jolly good idea...
0:13:15 > 0:13:16A great deterrent.
0:13:16 > 0:13:18The NRA agreed.
0:13:18 > 0:13:22No surprises there perhaps.
0:13:22 > 0:13:25Their chief, Wayne LaPierre, put his finger on the real culprit,
0:13:25 > 0:13:27socialism.
0:13:27 > 0:13:32You should be anxious and you should be frightened.
0:13:32 > 0:13:38If they seize power, if these so-called
0:13:38 > 0:13:41European Socialists take over the House and the Senate and God
0:13:41 > 0:13:45forbid, they get the White House again, our
0:13:45 > 0:13:48American freedoms could be lost and our country will be changed for
0:13:48 > 0:13:50ever.
0:13:50 > 0:13:52Thank you very much.
0:13:52 > 0:13:56Thank you.
0:13:56 > 0:14:00And that, don't forget, is the voice of financial power in America.
0:14:00 > 0:14:04They back the president to the tune of $30 billion.
0:14:04 > 0:14:06They back the president to the tune of $30 million.
0:14:06 > 0:14:08Does he have the appetite to bite that hand?
0:14:08 > 0:14:11Joining me now, John R Lott, Jr, president of the Crime
0:14:11 > 0:14:18Prevention Research Centre.
0:14:18 > 0:14:23Can I start by asking you what you felt and heard from those students
0:14:23 > 0:14:27who were talking to Presidents Club yesterday in the White House? Were
0:14:27 > 0:14:33you moved? -- talking to the president yesterday.Anybody would
0:14:33 > 0:14:37be moved, I guess, what's going to happen, what's the impact of the
0:14:37 > 0:14:43different laws they in place? We had people talking about background
0:14:43 > 0:14:46checks on private transfers, that's been a number one thing people have
0:14:46 > 0:14:51been asking for. But I can't think of any attack this century that
0:14:51 > 0:14:56would have been stopped in anyway if that kind of law had been in effect.
0:14:56 > 0:15:01You know, we want to do something, I want to do something, but you want
0:15:01 > 0:15:06to do something that will actually be relevant for these attacks. I
0:15:06 > 0:15:10think the president, who I think has been consistent on this, about
0:15:10 > 0:15:15allowing staff or teachers to be able to go and carried permit
0:15:15 > 0:15:22concealed handguns, is an era track there.So you would arm teachers in
0:15:22 > 0:15:27schools? If you wanted highly skilled teachers, they would have to
0:15:27 > 0:15:35be top marksman and women as well as teachers?Right, well, you have 25
0:15:35 > 0:15:39states, to varying degrees, currently allowing teachers or staff
0:15:39 > 0:15:45to carry. You don't need very many, just a few at each place. The
0:15:45 > 0:15:49alternative is to go and, let's say, have an armed guard. The problem
0:15:49 > 0:15:54with that is that having somebody in uniform is like having somebody with
0:15:54 > 0:15:58a neon sign saying, shoot me first. Better to have teachers, then, who
0:15:58 > 0:16:07have diddy marksman -- who have to be marksman, a kind of SWAT team in
0:16:07 > 0:16:11schools? Trump said that they would get a bonus if they were armed. Is
0:16:11 > 0:16:15that the route you would go down? Look, in the last few years we've
0:16:15 > 0:16:20had dozens of mass public shootings which have been stopped by concealed
0:16:20 > 0:16:24carry permit holders. There isn't much difference here. About 17
0:16:24 > 0:16:31million Americans have permits to carry concealed handguns. These
0:16:31 > 0:16:38individuals are extremely law-abiding and even in the states,
0:16:38 > 0:16:41you don't see any problems with it. Would it just be teachers or would
0:16:41 > 0:16:49it be of other members of staff? Would you even arm the children? It
0:16:49 > 0:16:54is a race to the bottom.I think that's a bit absurd, a two-year-old
0:16:54 > 0:17:03being armed?I'm asking you.Well, the point is, you'd have adults, OK,
0:17:03 > 0:17:09who got additional training. We have 25 states. If you can point to one
0:17:09 > 0:17:14problem, any significant problem... I know of one accidental discharge
0:17:14 > 0:17:17of a gun in all of the year is that different states have had these
0:17:17 > 0:17:22rules and no one was harmed. Beyond that you find that these people are
0:17:22 > 0:17:27very law-abiding, they haven't had the problems. One thing that's
0:17:27 > 0:17:32clear, not those places that have allowed staff or teachers do have
0:17:32 > 0:17:35permit concealed handguns have had these kind of attacks. It's one
0:17:35 > 0:17:40thing to put a sign in front of a building saying, this is a gun free
0:17:40 > 0:17:46zone, but another to say that people...I get that and I get that
0:17:46 > 0:17:50the British culture has a different take on this which is why we are
0:17:50 > 0:17:55interested in your view, but fundamentally, America loses what,
0:17:55 > 0:18:00some 96 people on average every month of every year to gun crime and
0:18:00 > 0:18:06it doesn't seem worth considering other issues, like background
0:18:06 > 0:18:10checks, bump stock bands, like proper mental health checks,
0:18:10 > 0:18:18stopping selling guns to people under 21? Why wouldn't you
0:18:18 > 0:18:24incorporate any of those first? Well, we have background checks,
0:18:24 > 0:18:27there's a lot of academic literature on that and unfortunately it doesn't
0:18:27 > 0:18:33find that they be dues crime in anyway. Think of it this way, how
0:18:33 > 0:18:40easy is it for you to find illegal drugs? -- that they reduce crime. In
0:18:40 > 0:18:44college, 70% will say they can get it. The same groups selling illegal
0:18:44 > 0:18:48drugs are the same ones that sell illegal guns. If I clicked my
0:18:48 > 0:18:53fingers and caused all illegal drugs to disappear from the United States
0:18:53 > 0:18:58and all guns, how long would it be before the drugs started coming back
0:18:58 > 0:19:04in? 20 minutes. And how long before those same gangs brought in guns to
0:19:04 > 0:19:07protect their property?Do you believe that those calling for gun
0:19:07 > 0:19:12safety laws were socialists, politically motivated to reduce
0:19:12 > 0:19:18American freedom?Well, my big concern about the gun control laws
0:19:18 > 0:19:21is that they basically disarmed the most honourable people in our
0:19:21 > 0:19:28society. -- the most vulnerable people. In Washington, DC, it costs
0:19:28 > 0:19:34$125 to do a background check on the private transfer of a gun. Who do
0:19:34 > 0:19:37you price out of protecting themselves and their families? Poor
0:19:37 > 0:19:43minorities who live in high crime areas.Thank you very much, thank
0:19:43 > 0:19:46you.
0:19:46 > 0:19:48Are we too ideologically resistant to the idea
0:19:48 > 0:19:49of medicating depression?
0:19:49 > 0:19:52A major scientific study - the largest ever of its kind -
0:19:52 > 0:19:54suggests that more than a million extra people should be offered
0:19:54 > 0:19:57antidepressants or other treatments, and we should not be squeamish
0:19:57 > 0:19:59about treating mental health problems with drugs.
0:19:59 > 0:20:02But they also recommended that prozac - one of the best known, but,
0:20:02 > 0:20:05they claim, least successful - be swapped for others that
0:20:05 > 0:20:06consistently perform better.
0:20:06 > 0:20:13Katie Razzall has the story.
0:20:13 > 0:20:17I don't know if you've ever been driving and you just miss running
0:20:17 > 0:20:21over a child and you feel completely sick in your whole body.
0:20:21 > 0:20:26It felt like that but it never stopped.
0:20:26 > 0:20:29Or, I don't know if ever you have been
0:20:29 > 0:20:32on a plane where there is an emergency landing and you think you
0:20:32 > 0:20:34are going to die.
0:20:34 > 0:20:40It was like that, but it just didn't stop.
0:20:40 > 0:20:42I had this feeling I was going to fall and the
0:20:42 > 0:20:45pit was bottomless and I had to hold on for dear life.
0:20:45 > 0:20:48It's estimated mental illness affects one
0:20:48 > 0:20:50in four people in the UK each year.
0:20:50 > 0:20:54For many of them, today's study may be welcome news.
0:20:54 > 0:20:56The drugs work for moderate to acute depression is the
0:20:56 > 0:20:57message.
0:20:57 > 0:21:00Though some antidepressants are more effective than others.
0:21:00 > 0:21:04The number of prescriptions for antidepressants in the UK has
0:21:04 > 0:21:08doubled over the ten years between 2006 and 2016.
0:21:08 > 0:21:16There may be some overprescription, those behind the
0:21:16 > 0:21:18report accept, if the drugs are given for mild depression.
0:21:18 > 0:21:20But the bigger issue for them is the 1
0:21:20 > 0:21:22million people in the UK who are missing out
0:21:22 > 0:21:24on treatment entirely.
0:21:24 > 0:21:26The big problem is that there is a huge proportion of patients
0:21:26 > 0:21:28who need the treatment because they have
0:21:28 > 0:21:31moderate to severe depression.
0:21:31 > 0:21:33Yet they do not receive an effective treatment.
0:21:33 > 0:21:35When I say effective treatment, I mean either
0:21:35 > 0:21:37pharmacological antidepressants or psychological.
0:21:37 > 0:21:39And the other big problem is untreated depression can
0:21:39 > 0:21:44be fatal.
0:21:44 > 0:21:46Rachael Kelly had her first serious episode of anxiety
0:21:46 > 0:21:51driven depression when she was in her 30s.
0:21:51 > 0:21:54I was suicidal and I was screaming and saying I wanted to
0:21:54 > 0:21:57die, and I felt so ill.
0:21:57 > 0:21:59She spent a couple of years on antidepressants
0:21:59 > 0:22:01then, and again a few years later.
0:22:01 > 0:22:03With such a stigma still around mental illness and antidepressants,
0:22:03 > 0:22:08she believes today's report will help.
0:22:08 > 0:22:13I think I felt a sense of relief, because I think it is bad
0:22:13 > 0:22:15enough feeling very depressed and then to also worry whether the
0:22:15 > 0:22:19treatment is the right treatment or the wrong treatment.
0:22:19 > 0:22:21I think my experience is when you are severely
0:22:21 > 0:22:24unwell, and if you are in hospital and you are
0:22:24 > 0:22:28suicidal, in a way, the
0:22:28 > 0:22:31whole debate is bonkers.
0:22:31 > 0:22:34When you are that unwell, you are going to try
0:22:34 > 0:22:35and find drugs to get you better.
0:22:35 > 0:22:38The research shows that while more than 90% of the world's
0:22:38 > 0:22:40big pharmaceutical companies were investing in
0:22:40 > 0:22:43research in new drugs for psychiatric conditions like
0:22:43 > 0:22:45depression and schizophrenia back in 2012, now only 27%
0:22:45 > 0:22:48of them are doing so.
0:22:48 > 0:22:51We need to innovate and find new treatments to help people feel
0:22:51 > 0:22:52better.
0:22:52 > 0:22:55That is the big challenge for the future.
0:22:55 > 0:22:59Are you saying at the moment the pharmaceutical
0:22:59 > 0:23:01companies are not doing that?
0:23:01 > 0:23:06No, because at the moment, it is not cost-effective for them.
0:23:06 > 0:23:10Some psychiatrists believe the use of
0:23:10 > 0:23:14antidepressants on a day-to-day basis is already too high, so there
0:23:14 > 0:23:17is some resistance to the suggestion in today's report that more people
0:23:17 > 0:23:19should be given the option of drugs.
0:23:19 > 0:23:23Long-term use of antidepressants can cause physical adverse effects,
0:23:23 > 0:23:25including sexual impairment and sometimes that can persist when
0:23:25 > 0:23:27people stop taking medication.
0:23:27 > 0:23:29They can cause suicidal and sometimes
0:23:29 > 0:23:36aggressive impulses in young people, in particular.
0:23:36 > 0:23:39They can cause foetal abnormalities and they can cause
0:23:39 > 0:23:41very prolonged and severe withdrawal syndromes in some people when they
0:23:41 > 0:23:43try and stop them.
0:23:43 > 0:23:48And the mental impact of long-term treatment, I
0:23:48 > 0:23:51also think, is significant, because they give people the message that
0:23:51 > 0:23:53they need treatment and that they are not able
0:23:53 > 0:23:54to manage their problems themselves.
0:23:54 > 0:23:56It was a stigma to take the drugs.
0:23:56 > 0:23:58When Rachael Kelly was ill, antidepressants were
0:23:58 > 0:24:01the answer.
0:24:01 > 0:24:03But she says ideally drugs would be used only in the
0:24:03 > 0:24:10short-term and they are not the only solution.
0:24:10 > 0:24:13Talking therapy, mindfulness, diet, and even Sammy the dog
0:24:13 > 0:24:15have all played a part in her recovery.
0:24:15 > 0:24:19She has kept the card on which a psychiatrist wrote a message
0:24:19 > 0:24:20when she was at her bleakest.
0:24:20 > 0:24:21It says, "you will get better."
0:24:21 > 0:24:24And I used to hold onto this card for dear
0:24:24 > 0:24:25life.
0:24:25 > 0:24:28I sit here as someone who is well now, and I did get better.
0:24:28 > 0:24:31And other people will get better.
0:24:31 > 0:24:33So anybody who is watching who is feeling a bit emotional,
0:24:33 > 0:24:36anybody who is out there who is suffering, my
0:24:36 > 0:24:39heart goes out to you and I would not wish it on anyone,
0:24:39 > 0:24:41but I do believe firmly that you can get better.
0:24:41 > 0:24:46Joining us here James Davies, psychotherapist.
0:24:46 > 0:24:47And Dr Helen Stokes Lampart, practising GP and chair
0:24:47 > 0:24:51of Royal College of GPs.
0:24:51 > 0:24:56Very nice to have you here. Helen, when you saw the study, what was
0:24:56 > 0:25:01your first reaction?I don't think any GP in the country will be
0:25:01 > 0:25:06surprised to hear that in many cases the drugs work. We don't ascribe
0:25:06 > 0:25:09antidepressants thoughtlessly, we do it with the best interests of the
0:25:09 > 0:25:13patient in mind, we do it because they benefit many patients but is
0:25:13 > 0:25:18only one way of treating depression. Will it liberate more GPs to hand
0:25:18 > 0:25:22out more pills, will it make it easier for people to ask for them?
0:25:22 > 0:25:26It will make it easier for some people to overcome the stigma of
0:25:26 > 0:25:32asking, dictation. I don't think GPs have been inhibited from having the
0:25:32 > 0:25:36conversation about medication but we need time to have open
0:25:36 > 0:25:40conversations, we need the range of treatment options available. This is
0:25:40 > 0:25:44helpful, clarifying certain things. There has been a lot of myth in the
0:25:44 > 0:25:49media about this so it's good to have a conversation.That's a pretty
0:25:49 > 0:25:52good step, isn't it, if it removes the stigma and people can talk about
0:25:52 > 0:25:57it.Anything that helps people to speak about their emotional
0:25:57 > 0:26:01difficulties is positive but we are deeply concerned about the study, in
0:26:01 > 0:26:06particular because it tells us nothing that we don't already know.
0:26:06 > 0:26:09The research says that the difference between antidepressants
0:26:09 > 0:26:17and placebo is very minor, in fact clinically insignificant. What that
0:26:17 > 0:26:23means is that there's any register in the difference in a person's
0:26:23 > 0:26:27real-world experience. The differences are remarkably minor.
0:26:27 > 0:26:30When it suggests up to 1 million more people would benefit from
0:26:30 > 0:26:36having treatment, drugs of some kind, do you agree?I don't at all,
0:26:36 > 0:26:39I think that's an overstatement. Unlike placebos, antidepressants
0:26:39 > 0:26:47have side effects in between 40-70% of people, depending on the study
0:26:47 > 0:26:51you consult and they generate withdrawal effects for around two
0:26:51 > 0:26:54thirds of patients. In a large cohort of those persons, the
0:26:54 > 0:27:00side-effects are severe -- those withdrawal effects are severe and
0:27:00 > 0:27:05may last for years. We're very concerned that the study is being
0:27:05 > 0:27:08spun in such a way as to wrongly lead people to believe that these
0:27:08 > 0:27:14drugs are more efficacious than they are.Do you believe that there is
0:27:14 > 0:27:20under medication in this country? They're absolutely as well as there
0:27:20 > 0:27:24is some over medication. It is a difficult area, for some people
0:27:24 > 0:27:28tablets are not the right thing but others are reluctant to come forward
0:27:28 > 0:27:31when there may be benefit. I recognised some of what James is
0:27:31 > 0:27:36saying about the study.And withdrawal? This isn't the same kind
0:27:36 > 0:27:41of addiction, it isn't Mike being addicted to cocaine, it's a
0:27:41 > 0:27:45different experience it must be done slowly and gradually and in a
0:27:45 > 0:27:52supported way. But it is hard, isn't it?For some people, yes.When you
0:27:52 > 0:27:55are going through this, do you explain it? You may had it out for a
0:27:55 > 0:28:00short period of time.Generally you don't hand them out for a short
0:28:00 > 0:28:04period, they are designed to be taken for a minimum of six months,
0:28:04 > 0:28:08following benefits. If you benefit, at least six months, they aren't
0:28:08 > 0:28:13designed for short-term use.
0:28:14 > 0:28:19Is this about saving money? Encouragement to say a medication is
0:28:19 > 0:28:24quicker than therapy until?Money plays a huge role and if you look at
0:28:24 > 0:28:28the research it says most to approach their GPs for help with
0:28:28 > 0:28:34emotional problems would prefer psychological therapy or talking
0:28:34 > 0:28:39intervention. Unfortunately they end up with an antidepressant in most
0:28:39 > 0:28:45cases because provision for nondrug alternatives is woefully low.We
0:28:45 > 0:28:49would agree on that, there is not enough talking therapy on the NHS
0:28:49 > 0:28:55and waiting times are a problem. This research looked at people
0:28:55 > 0:29:01taking drugs for eight weeks only. The majority of people in the UK
0:29:01 > 0:29:05take these medications for many months and in many cases many years.
0:29:05 > 0:29:10The relevance of this finding that those patients is in question.Thank
0:29:10 > 0:29:13you very much.But it is the biggest study ever.
0:29:13 > 0:29:16If you need details of organisations which offer support with mental
0:29:16 > 0:29:17health you can find them at bbc.co.uk/actionline.
0:29:17 > 0:29:21Or you can call for free, at any tim,e to hear recorded
0:29:21 > 0:29:26information on zero 8000 564 756.
0:29:26 > 0:29:30If your day has been a tough one think on this - you were not,
0:29:30 > 0:29:33at least, stuck in an EU Exit and Trade Subcommittee for nearly
0:29:33 > 0:29:3411 hours in Chequers.
0:29:34 > 0:29:37Unless, of course, you were one of those and you've just switched
0:29:37 > 0:29:38on Newsnight to find out what actually happened
0:29:38 > 0:29:40after you dozed off.
0:29:40 > 0:29:42This is the meeting that hopes to finally resolve whether the UK
0:29:42 > 0:29:45will seek to retain close regulatory alignment with the EU.
0:29:45 > 0:29:49We're not expecting any details from the PM before Thursday.
0:29:49 > 0:29:52Mr Corbyn is hoping to pip her to the post
0:29:52 > 0:29:53with an announcement of his own position
0:29:53 > 0:29:56on Brexit next week.
0:29:56 > 0:29:59Tonight Emily Thornberry told LBC's Iain Dale that
0:29:59 > 0:30:01Labour would replicate the customs union post-Brexit.
0:30:01 > 0:30:04He's here now with Times columnist Matthew Parris,
0:30:04 > 0:30:06and the director of the Centre for Labour and Social
0:30:06 > 0:30:09Studies Faiza Shaheen.
0:30:09 > 0:30:20Welcome.Tell us what you heard today? Emily Thornberry came in to
0:30:20 > 0:30:25do a phone in and the customs union is the thing, we expect Jeremy
0:30:25 > 0:30:29Corbyn to make an announcement on it on Thursday. I thought I will not
0:30:29 > 0:30:34ask what he will say because she will not tell me so I just said,
0:30:34 > 0:30:39your thinking is developing the customs union, isn't it, Emily? She
0:30:39 > 0:30:45said, absolutely it is and we don't intend to stay in the customs union
0:30:45 > 0:30:49but we will have something as near as damn it to it which would mean we
0:30:49 > 0:30:56would not be able to agree our own trade agreement. She said Britain
0:30:56 > 0:30:58would have a special role with the EU in negotiating trade agreements
0:30:58 > 0:31:04but by the EU would agree I do not know. Is she going out on a limb? I
0:31:04 > 0:31:09don't think so, I think this is what Jeremy Corbyn will announce that
0:31:09 > 0:31:13will be interesting because 65% of Labour members voted to remain but
0:31:13 > 0:31:17that is not the same for Labour voters and I think there will be a
0:31:17 > 0:31:22lot to say we have heard rhetoric from Corbyn about respecting the
0:31:22 > 0:31:27wishes of the British people, staying in the customs union
0:31:27 > 0:31:34effectively means partially staying in the EU.Laura Kuenssberg has said
0:31:34 > 0:31:39that the UK, the Cabinet agreed that the UK wants to stick to standards
0:31:39 > 0:31:46on its own terms. What does that sound like to you?You are going to
0:31:46 > 0:31:50ask me. What does that sound like? We have heard so much language
0:31:50 > 0:31:56created to cover up the fact our government has not got a decision on
0:31:56 > 0:32:00what they are doing and how they will do it and I'm not sure -- I'm
0:32:00 > 0:32:07sure I am not the only person frustrated. We have business lobbies
0:32:07 > 0:32:11coming up with their own plans. We might have divergence, we have to
0:32:11 > 0:32:16look at the Northern Ireland border. There is no clarity. It is a
0:32:16 > 0:32:21breakthrough of unity. This is what Laura is hearing. Matthew, from the
0:32:21 > 0:32:27snippets coming out, do you feel the Cabinet can now say we are united?
0:32:27 > 0:32:34No. They could not have because we know that they are split among
0:32:34 > 0:32:38themselves and have different opinions. There is no way Philip
0:32:38 > 0:32:43Hammond can look at Liam Fox in the eye and say we are united. We have
0:32:43 > 0:32:47to treat these early rumours with caution. You know dreams you have
0:32:47 > 0:32:51when you are about to take an exam and you have not read the syllabus?
0:32:51 > 0:32:56I think Mrs May probably has a nightmare that she is about to
0:32:56 > 0:33:00announce a Brexit plan and she has not got one.What do you think they
0:33:00 > 0:33:07are doing, from lunch onwards? I think it has just broken up now.
0:33:07 > 0:33:13Repeat the phrase again Laura said, they agreed what?From what I
0:33:13 > 0:33:18understand they have agreed... A breakthrough of unity in the Cabinet
0:33:18 > 0:33:23for now, according to one minister. James Forsyth, the political editor
0:33:23 > 0:33:30of the Spectator reports they have agreed on divergences. Within the
0:33:30 > 0:33:37Cabinet? ! Divergence from EU regulations, as you well know!
0:33:37 > 0:33:41Managed divergences. That would be seen as a breakthrough for the Prime
0:33:41 > 0:33:46Minister because she would've got Philip Hammond and Amber Rudd and
0:33:46 > 0:33:49David Lidington onside. I have my doubts that is the case because
0:33:49 > 0:33:55think Matthew is right, there is a splitting Cabinet. The Brexiteers
0:33:55 > 0:34:02slightly have the upper hand. I do not think Liam Fox, Boris Johnson,
0:34:02 > 0:34:05possibly David Davis, could live with a situation where there was
0:34:05 > 0:34:11going to be more or less full regulatory alignment. They will be
0:34:11 > 0:34:15alignment of things, in particular industries, it is in our interests,
0:34:15 > 0:34:20but we have to have the freedom not to do that.A source told Laura that
0:34:20 > 0:34:27divergences as won. You are now cheering, if this is right?I do not
0:34:27 > 0:34:32see the point of leaving if you are just going to obey all the rules in
0:34:32 > 0:34:38perpetuity without any say in how they are adopted. It may be in some
0:34:38 > 0:34:42industries we mirror EU regulations. I do not say we have to be
0:34:42 > 0:34:48completely divergent but we have to judge a case-by-case.If Jeremy
0:34:48 > 0:34:52Corbyn, John McDonnell, going to come out next week and say, we think
0:34:52 > 0:34:57there is now a change of heart, policy for labour, do you think that
0:34:57 > 0:35:03is where we will get to?What does that mean for the Northern Ireland
0:35:03 > 0:35:06border when you have divergences? This has been the problem. We seem
0:35:06 > 0:35:11to go it at the wrong way making it more about politics rather than
0:35:11 > 0:35:15thinking about what it means for people and in particular the border.
0:35:15 > 0:35:28What can you do there? We have this conversation and you come back down
0:35:28 > 0:35:31and save Northern Ireland and Ireland.I do not want to put words
0:35:31 > 0:35:33in Matthew's mouth, but people on the Remains side see it as an
0:35:33 > 0:35:36insoluble problem. It is not, when you have the Irish government who do
0:35:36 > 0:35:39not want a border, the British Government and EU do not want a
0:35:39 > 0:35:48border.Let Matthew put words into his own mouth.A bespoke customs
0:35:48 > 0:35:53arrangement...Lovely phrases. This spoke customs arrangement, deep and
0:35:53 > 0:35:58special partnership. They are words. Will we get a hard or soft Brexit,
0:35:58 > 0:36:04if what you have heard is true, it will be hard. In that case, I think
0:36:04 > 0:36:08there is a majority in the House of Commons with all the Labour Party,
0:36:08 > 0:36:14if they go for customs union, as seems likely, and 50, 60 members of
0:36:14 > 0:36:21the Conservative Party who have a majority for blocking this.You now
0:36:21 > 0:36:27trust that Corbyn will go one away with the support probably of the
0:36:27 > 0:36:32SNP, the devolved nations, the lords as well probably. Can a Theresa May
0:36:32 > 0:36:39government survive that?I do not think so. There is no majority in
0:36:39 > 0:36:44parliament for that outcome.As a remain conservative, how would you
0:36:44 > 0:36:52vote if it came to an election? A general election?Yes. I could not
0:36:52 > 0:36:56vote for Jeremy Corbyn as Prime Minister. I would stay in the
0:36:56 > 0:37:00Conservative Party so I could vote against Boris Johnson and Jacob
0:37:00 > 0:37:07Rees-Mogg becoming...If it was more report -- comportment to give your
0:37:07 > 0:37:12remain vote to Jeremy Corbyn?I would be torn, I suppose loyalty to
0:37:12 > 0:37:17the old tribe would prevail but there will be millions for whom it
0:37:17 > 0:37:21worked.People make speeches and then sort of run away, they bottle
0:37:21 > 0:37:26it and we do not hear anyone clarifying or changing position. Do
0:37:26 > 0:37:32you think next week is the week we will hear a defined new Labour
0:37:32 > 0:37:37position in your heart?Things are moving and we are coming to a point
0:37:37 > 0:37:41where people are frustrated and saying we are getting to the one
0:37:41 > 0:37:47years since we triggered Brexit, how can we not have a plan? Business is
0:37:47 > 0:37:54rightly saying we cannot go on like this. We hear from workers, in work
0:37:54 > 0:37:58spaces the investment is not being made, employers holding back in
0:37:58 > 0:38:03terms of wages. We have to hit the point where Labour themselves, there
0:38:03 > 0:38:08is pressure for them to come up with a solid plan. I think it has to
0:38:08 > 0:38:15happen now and if it does not happen, the repercussions for
0:38:15 > 0:38:18people'slives in this insecure environment, we also found a
0:38:18 > 0:38:23majority that worry that the economy is a threat to their employment
0:38:23 > 0:38:27because they do not know what is happening. Our politicians have not
0:38:27 > 0:38:32done their job and they need to roll out plans and say what they are
0:38:32 > 0:38:36going to do, especially the government in power.You are right
0:38:36 > 0:38:40the government have to say more about their plans. We expected it
0:38:40 > 0:38:45three months ago and hopefully we will get it next week. Another
0:38:45 > 0:38:48development tonight, Anna Soubry has put down an amendment to the trade
0:38:48 > 0:38:53bill calling for a customs union. There are not 60 Conservative
0:38:53 > 0:38:59members of Parliament who would vote for it, but there probably are a
0:38:59 > 0:39:02dozen, 15, which in theory the government could be defeated and
0:39:02 > 0:39:06then you would go to a situation where you have a vote of confidence
0:39:06 > 0:39:12presumably. Theresa May cannot allow that to go through because it
0:39:12 > 0:39:15undermines her strategy. Assuming there is a strategy. There could be
0:39:15 > 0:39:24interesting times.Does it help the Conservatives and Brexiteers if
0:39:24 > 0:39:28there is a more solid commitment from Labour to the customs union?It
0:39:28 > 0:39:37is difficult. I think Labour are in a cleft stick with their own
0:39:37 > 0:39:44supporters and membership. You will rightly say the Conservative Party
0:39:44 > 0:39:50has it on this but Labour does too. If there were a general election and
0:39:50 > 0:39:54parliament voted to stay in the customs union, a form of it, and
0:39:54 > 0:39:58Theresa May thought she could not carry on on that basis, I do not
0:39:58 > 0:40:03know how the parties would go into election. Is anybody cancelling
0:40:03 > 0:40:09holidays? No, and I will not make any more election predictions.We
0:40:09 > 0:40:15have conflated two plans, one for the transition period and the other
0:40:15 > 0:40:19after the transition period and it is possible the Cabinet agreed there
0:40:19 > 0:40:23will be diverges after the transition period or staying
0:40:23 > 0:40:29together during it.I think that is right. Do you think Jeremy Corbyn is
0:40:29 > 0:40:34now sniffing power?The membership, Labour membership support staying in
0:40:34 > 0:40:39the single market but if we run the election, what happened last year,
0:40:39 > 0:40:43domestic issues matter and that is where the Conservative Party has
0:40:43 > 0:40:47failed massively and because of Brexit they have kicked the can down
0:40:47 > 0:40:52the road on issues and there have been consultations after
0:40:52 > 0:40:56consultation. If there were another election, Labour could go hard and
0:40:56 > 0:41:01it would help them on Brexit.We have run out. Thank you.
0:41:01 > 0:41:03Evan's here tomorrow.
0:41:03 > 0:41:04Till then, goodnight.