0:00:02 > 0:00:10You are up to date now.
0:00:10 > 0:00:12A Russian man who spied for Britain falls critically
0:00:12 > 0:00:13in a Salisbury shopping centre.
0:00:14 > 0:00:15Was he exposed to a lethal substance?
0:00:15 > 0:00:17And was the Russian state involved?
0:00:17 > 0:00:23Here's what Putin once said about Russians who sell secrets.
0:00:24 > 0:00:26TRANSLATION:Traitors will kick the bucket, trust me.
0:00:26 > 0:00:28These people betrayed their friends, their brothers in arms.
0:00:28 > 0:00:31Whatever they got in exchange for it, those 30 pieces
0:00:31 > 0:00:45of silver they were given, they will choke on them!
0:00:45 > 0:00:47We know nothing yet, but could this be foul play?
0:00:47 > 0:00:48We've gathered the experts.
0:00:48 > 0:00:53Here comes Bradley Wiggins up to the line!
0:00:53 > 0:00:55Is this what crossing an ethical line looks like?
0:00:55 > 0:00:59The first Briton to win the Tour de France is accused of enhancing his
0:00:59 > 0:01:00performance with medication.
0:01:00 > 0:01:03As Bradley Wiggins denies the charge, we hear from a former
0:01:04 > 0:01:05Tour de France cyclist who admits to doping.
0:01:05 > 0:01:06Also tonight...
0:01:06 > 0:01:07In Sweden, everyone's pay is public information.
0:01:07 > 0:01:08Hello!
0:01:08 > 0:01:10Hello, ma'am, how can I help you?
0:01:10 > 0:01:12Hi, I'm looking for some information about these people, please.
0:01:12 > 0:01:13Bjorn Ulvaeus.
0:01:13 > 0:01:13Of course.
0:01:13 > 0:01:14Stefan Edberg.
0:01:14 > 0:01:16I could ask for anyone?
0:01:16 > 0:01:18For anyone.
0:01:18 > 0:01:22But has this solved their Equal Pay problem?
0:01:22 > 0:01:26It is a cultural thing in Sweden, we never talk about money,
0:01:26 > 0:01:32it is easier to talk about STDs!
0:01:36 > 0:01:41Good evening.
0:01:42 > 0:01:44When a man falls ill in a shopping centre,
0:01:44 > 0:01:46it doesn't normally lead the news.
0:01:46 > 0:01:49When that man is revealed as a Russian who spied for Britain -
0:01:49 > 0:01:52and his condition is considered critical - the whole thing becomes
0:01:52 > 0:01:56a little harder to ignore.
0:01:56 > 0:01:59Sergei Skripal was granted refuge in Britain in a spy swap
0:01:59 > 0:02:07between America and Russia eight years ago.
0:02:07 > 0:02:10Nothing much was heard from him in that time, until yesterday,
0:02:10 > 0:02:13when he and a woman in her thirties were found slumped
0:02:13 > 0:02:14on a bench in Salisbury.
0:02:15 > 0:02:16Police have declared a "major incident",
0:02:16 > 0:02:18and believe they were exposed to an unknown substance.
0:02:19 > 0:02:20One which may yet prove untraceable.
0:02:20 > 0:02:23If the spectre of Alexander Litvinenko lingers on his shoulder,
0:02:23 > 0:02:26we should caution against being too hasty, assuming we know too much.
0:02:26 > 0:02:28Clearly, there are plenty of unknowns.
0:02:28 > 0:02:30But there is much we need to ask too.
0:02:30 > 0:02:32We begin with our diplomatic editor, Mark Urban.
0:02:32 > 0:02:34Yesterday afternoon, passers-by noticed two people -
0:02:34 > 0:02:36apparently unconscious - on a bench in Salisbury.
0:02:37 > 0:02:39The area was investigated by people in protective suits,
0:02:39 > 0:02:42as suspicions built that the two victims had been poisoned.
0:02:42 > 0:02:44They were in Salisbury Hospital tonight, described
0:02:44 > 0:02:49as 'critically ill'.
0:02:49 > 0:02:52We are unable to ascertain whether or not a crime has taken place.
0:02:52 > 0:02:54A major incident, however, has been declared today
0:02:55 > 0:03:01and a multi-agency response has been coordinated.
0:03:01 > 0:03:05The BBC established that the man being treated is Sergei Skripal.
0:03:05 > 0:03:09He was convicted by a court in Moscow in 2006 of being a spy
0:03:09 > 0:03:12for British intelligence.
0:03:12 > 0:03:15He was sent from the court to the Gulag, where he
0:03:15 > 0:03:19languished for four years.
0:03:19 > 0:03:22It was in 2010 that the arrest of a network of Russian agents
0:03:22 > 0:03:25in the United States provided an opportunity for MI6
0:03:25 > 0:03:28to repay its debt to Skripal.
0:03:28 > 0:03:33The UK asked for his name to be added to a list of prisoners the CIA
0:03:33 > 0:03:34was putting together.
0:03:34 > 0:03:37And in July of that year, Skripal and three others were put
0:03:37 > 0:03:39on a jet from Moscow to Vienna.
0:03:40 > 0:03:42The ten accused by the US of espionage - among
0:03:42 > 0:03:45them, Anna Chapman - were flown from America and,
0:03:45 > 0:03:48in the best Cold War traditions, the two parties of spies crossed
0:03:48 > 0:03:53on the tarmac in Austria.
0:03:53 > 0:03:57Asked about who might have betrayed this American spy ring,
0:03:57 > 0:04:04President Putin vented his fury publicly.
0:04:05 > 0:04:08TRANSLATION:Traitors will kick the bucket, trust me.
0:04:08 > 0:04:14These people betrayed their friends, their brothers in arms.
0:04:14 > 0:04:16Whatever they got in exchange for it, those 30 pieces
0:04:16 > 0:04:19of silver they were given, they will choke on them!
0:04:19 > 0:04:21As for Skripal, he flew from Vienna to Britain,
0:04:22 > 0:04:29where he began a life in exile.
0:04:30 > 0:04:32Police were today securing the house in Salisbury where the former
0:04:33 > 0:04:35Russian intelligence officer has lived in recent years.
0:04:35 > 0:04:36Mark is here now.
0:04:36 > 0:04:41Give us a sense of who this man is.
0:04:41 > 0:04:44People who have met him talk about a tough ex-paratrooper,
0:04:44 > 0:04:47special forces, very proud of that who gravitated towards Russian
0:04:47 > 0:04:48military intelligence.
0:04:48 > 0:04:52If you believe the court case that was heard against him back
0:04:52 > 0:04:55in 2006, at some point in the late 1990s, he began working for MI6
0:04:56 > 0:05:02at a time when it was very hard to penetrate the GRU.
0:05:02 > 0:05:05I talked to Western spies at the time and they said
0:05:05 > 0:05:07post-Soviet collapse, this was the last element
0:05:07 > 0:05:09of the Russian intelligence community as it had become
0:05:10 > 0:05:16that was really tight and held together.
0:05:16 > 0:05:19So the recruitment would have been quite an achievement for MI6
0:05:19 > 0:05:23at the time and as a colonel, he moved on to the people who run
0:05:23 > 0:05:26the panel of the GRU and he was responsible for personnel
0:05:26 > 0:05:30matters so he would have been in a position to open up a complete
0:05:30 > 0:05:32order of battle of the GRU in Western embassies
0:05:32 > 0:05:38throughout the early 2000s, before being caught.
0:05:38 > 0:05:42While he may not be a very top level of British penetration,
0:05:42 > 0:05:45he was a pretty senior agent is pretty important is to Western
0:05:45 > 0:05:47intelligence during those years.
0:05:47 > 0:05:51We do not know what made him defect.
0:05:51 > 0:05:55What was he doing here latterly?
0:05:55 > 0:06:01You can imagine somebody helpful to that degree to HMG will be looked
0:06:01 > 0:06:07after and we know they put his name forward when these Russian agents
0:06:07 > 0:06:09were picked up in America in 2010 and the Russians,
0:06:09 > 0:06:13despite the fact they convicted him for treason, agreed to send him back
0:06:13 > 0:06:17on a plane to get their agents back.
0:06:17 > 0:06:23He would have got an MI6 pension and I understand from people
0:06:23 > 0:06:29in the forces that he occasionally gave lectures about the GRU.
0:06:29 > 0:06:35And he also acted as a consultant going to talk to other intelligence
0:06:35 > 0:06:37services as part of his sort of consultancy, almost.
0:06:37 > 0:06:41With MI6 that he did in return for this package.
0:06:41 > 0:06:44Not unlike, in fact, the type of work that Litvinenko did
0:06:44 > 0:06:47in terms of his conversations with the Spanish as a consultant
0:06:47 > 0:06:49or whatever you want to call it.
0:06:49 > 0:06:52Yet he is now lying critically ill in a hospital in Salisbury,
0:06:52 > 0:06:54found in a very public place.
0:06:54 > 0:07:00What is your sense of what has gone on?
0:07:00 > 0:07:03He was a man without an enormous number of connections to other
0:07:03 > 0:07:09people, in Salisbury or beyond.
0:07:09 > 0:07:14And he had a small nuclear family.
0:07:14 > 0:07:19We know that his wife died in 2012 and she is buried in the UK.
0:07:19 > 0:07:22His son died last year, very early, but after an illness,
0:07:22 > 0:07:27people I speak to say they did not regard it as suspicious.
0:07:27 > 0:07:30But he was clearly in a vulnerable state, only one member
0:07:30 > 0:07:35of the family surviving, his daughter, and it seems to be
0:07:35 > 0:07:39the case that somebody seeing him last week came to help him out
0:07:39 > 0:07:41perhaps at a difficult time after several months
0:07:41 > 0:07:44after the loss of his son.
0:07:44 > 0:07:46We know that his son, although he died in Russia
0:07:46 > 0:07:50on a holiday there, was repatriated to this country and he is
0:07:50 > 0:07:54buried in this country.
0:07:54 > 0:07:59So all kinds of possibilities that somehow the repatriation of his son
0:07:59 > 0:08:03or the visit of someone else coming from Russia to see him may have been
0:08:03 > 0:08:07a way that could have been used to fix his location and try and find
0:08:07 > 0:08:08out where he was.
0:08:08 > 0:08:11These are purely hypotheses because as you said at the very
0:08:11 > 0:08:14beginning of the programme, no foul play has been proven,
0:08:14 > 0:08:17but if you are looking for how he might have been found,
0:08:17 > 0:08:20those are some of the things you might be looking at.
0:08:20 > 0:08:21Thank you.
0:08:21 > 0:08:22Stay with us.
0:08:22 > 0:08:25We asked the Russian Government to come on to Newsnight -
0:08:25 > 0:08:25they wouldn't, unfortunately.
0:08:26 > 0:08:28But joining me now live from Brussels is former
0:08:28 > 0:08:30MI5 agent Annie Machon.
0:08:30 > 0:08:34And here in the studio, I am joined by Bill Browder, who calls himself
0:08:34 > 0:08:36Putin's Enemy Number One, and whose lawyer -
0:08:36 > 0:08:41Sergei Magnitsky - was, he believed, murdered by the Russian Government.
0:08:41 > 0:08:43Nice of you both to join us.
0:08:43 > 0:08:46Bill, you are right in front of me, what is your sense
0:08:46 > 0:08:49of what has gone on here?
0:08:49 > 0:08:52We don't know the details yet, but when a major enemy of Russia
0:08:52 > 0:08:54suddenly becomes critically ill from an unknown substance,
0:08:54 > 0:08:59one has to assume the worst.
0:08:59 > 0:09:01And one should start with the worst assumption
0:09:01 > 0:09:07and work our way back from that.
0:09:07 > 0:09:09I would assume until proven otherwise the assumption should be
0:09:09 > 0:09:12that this man was poisoned, with some type of substance
0:09:12 > 0:09:17from what is known as the KGB poison factory.
0:09:17 > 0:09:20They have a scientific research unit in Moscow, part of the FSB,
0:09:20 > 0:09:25in which they come up with poison to assassinate their enemies.
0:09:25 > 0:09:29They have used those before with Litvinenko.
0:09:29 > 0:09:32There was another shocking death connected to my case,
0:09:32 > 0:09:35a man who dropped dead in Surrey in 2012 after blowing the whistle
0:09:35 > 0:09:38on a major Russian Government corruption scheme.
0:09:38 > 0:09:41People die on a regular basis outside the country and so we should
0:09:41 > 0:09:43assume for the moment, until we know otherwise,
0:09:43 > 0:09:51that he has been assassinated.
0:09:51 > 0:09:57You would be surprised if the Russian state in some shape
0:09:57 > 0:10:01or form were not behind whatever has happened this weekend?
0:10:01 > 0:10:03We have no information, but the assumption, based
0:10:03 > 0:10:06on what we know right now, it is that this was
0:10:06 > 0:10:09an assassination attempt.
0:10:09 > 0:10:12Annie Machon, is that going a step too far or do you see
0:10:13 > 0:10:14where Bill Browder is coming from?
0:10:15 > 0:10:19I think we are rather jumping the gun here, I have to say.
0:10:19 > 0:10:22We do not know the name of the woman who was with him,
0:10:22 > 0:10:25we don't know what substances might have been involved.
0:10:25 > 0:10:29We don't know pretty much anything around this case.
0:10:29 > 0:10:33It has started to unfold in the media and it was just two
0:10:33 > 0:10:36people who appear to have taken an overdose of something,
0:10:36 > 0:10:40which has now been discredited, or whatever, on the streets.
0:10:40 > 0:10:44It has hit the headlines because it turns out he is indeed a Russian
0:10:44 > 0:10:47defector who is being protected by MI6 in the UK after
0:10:47 > 0:10:54the spice up in 2010.
0:10:54 > 0:10:56So there are many unknowns in this case.
0:10:56 > 0:11:02-- after the spy swap in 2010.
0:11:02 > 0:11:05It is inflammatory to throw around accusations, particularly in this
0:11:05 > 0:11:07era of Russiagate and Trump.
0:11:07 > 0:11:09It is also understandable that there was an immediate
0:11:09 > 0:11:15decontamination exercise around the case.
0:11:15 > 0:11:19Once this person's name had been fed into the system and once he had been
0:11:19 > 0:11:22taken to hospital and the police reported it, there would have been
0:11:22 > 0:11:25a red flag and in the way of the Litvinenko case,
0:11:25 > 0:11:28it would be absolutely normal for the police to contain this issue
0:11:29 > 0:11:31and try and decontaminate in case there was any potential similarity
0:11:32 > 0:11:34to the Litvinenko case, which was hideous, but we don't
0:11:34 > 0:11:37know that yet.
0:11:37 > 0:11:39You from a security, intelligence background.
0:11:39 > 0:11:43Explain what happens in a spy swap.
0:11:43 > 0:11:46When these people are transferred from one country to another,
0:11:46 > 0:11:49what protection are they given?
0:11:49 > 0:11:54He would have been on all the lists presumably for MI6 and MI5?
0:11:54 > 0:12:00Absolutely.
0:12:00 > 0:12:03From what I have seen in the reports, I don't know
0:12:03 > 0:12:03from the inside,
0:12:03 > 0:12:07from what I have seen, this guy was a high value asset
0:12:07 > 0:12:10for MI6 for at least ten years and then he was caught
0:12:10 > 0:12:13and prosecuted and he went to prison in Russia in 2006 for identifying
0:12:14 > 0:12:17the names of British agents in Russia, which is the crown
0:12:17 > 0:12:17jewels of intelligence.
0:12:17 > 0:12:19So it was a very serious crime.
0:12:19 > 0:12:24In the UK, we would also see that as a very serious crime.
0:12:24 > 0:12:28And then he was swapped in the 2010 spying ring case involving
0:12:29 > 0:12:37Anna Chapman and other Russian illegals swapped for four
0:12:37 > 0:12:39suspects, convicts - in Russia.
0:12:39 > 0:12:42So you are looking at a swap of ten Russian illegals, allegedly,
0:12:42 > 0:12:45for four convicted people in Russia, so he must have been
0:12:45 > 0:12:47pretty high-value.
0:12:47 > 0:12:49Why would you assume the state would intervene
0:12:49 > 0:12:52at point, Bill Browder?
0:12:52 > 0:12:54If this happened in 2008-2010, a decade ago,
0:12:54 > 0:12:58why would this happen now?
0:12:58 > 0:13:01What you have to understand about Russia is, you have many
0:13:01 > 0:13:04hundreds of thousands of people who work in different branches
0:13:04 > 0:13:06of the security services.
0:13:06 > 0:13:09They are not motivated people, they are not loyal
0:13:09 > 0:13:13and necessarily honest people.
0:13:13 > 0:13:20Unlike here and other countries, where people contribute
0:13:20 > 0:13:23their service out of patriotism, they do so for other reasons.
0:13:23 > 0:13:25They cannot assume anyone is going to be loyal.
0:13:25 > 0:13:29And so the only way that Putin can assure loyalty is to absolutely
0:13:29 > 0:13:30viciously and completely punish disloyalty no matter
0:13:31 > 0:13:40where and when and how.
0:13:40 > 0:13:45And so he has to create an incentive - a terrible incentive
0:13:45 > 0:13:47so that everybody else around says,
0:13:47 > 0:13:49if I in any way via off the track,
0:13:50 > 0:13:53terrible things will happen in the way that it has done to him.
0:13:53 > 0:13:56Does that make sense to you, that this is Putin
0:13:56 > 0:13:57reasserting a flexing muscles?
0:13:57 > 0:13:59We don't know anything about foul play at this point,
0:14:00 > 0:14:04but as a way of operating by the Russian President?
0:14:04 > 0:14:06It would seem unlikely in this particular case
0:14:07 > 0:14:10because they would not have handed him back to the West
0:14:10 > 0:14:14if they saw him as being a threat.
0:14:14 > 0:14:19But also, I find that slightly bizarre, the statement
0:14:19 > 0:14:22from your other guest, in the sense that a lot of patriots
0:14:22 > 0:14:25work for the intelligence agencies in America and in the UK.
0:14:25 > 0:14:27I was one of them, that was my motivation.
0:14:27 > 0:14:29And across the rest of the West.
0:14:29 > 0:14:33But a lot of patriots also do the same thing in Russia and to try
0:14:33 > 0:14:36and make a distinction between the motivation, I think,
0:14:36 > 0:14:38is slightly disingenuous.
0:14:38 > 0:14:42I don't really know...
0:14:42 > 0:14:48I can't really say for sure who is motivations are where but what I can
0:14:48 > 0:14:54say for sure is that Putin, and we saw this completely
0:14:54 > 0:14:55and absolutely with Litvinenko, the way Putin
0:14:56 > 0:14:59operates is to make examples out of people.
0:14:59 > 0:15:04He does not have loyalty anywhere in his own country, it is
0:15:04 > 0:15:11completely full of disloyal people who are profiting from different
0:15:11 > 0:15:14enterprises, etc, and the way he goes about creating loyalty
0:15:14 > 0:15:22is by creating a very, very severe punishment
0:15:22 > 0:15:25for people who are disloyal, and he said so, we just listened
0:15:25 > 0:15:28to him on the television saying that exact thing.
0:15:28 > 0:15:30That if somebody betrays their brothers in arms,
0:15:30 > 0:15:32then terrible things will happen to them,
0:15:32 > 0:15:33there is no mystery about that.
0:15:34 > 0:15:36Thank you both very much for bringing us so
0:15:36 > 0:15:37much this evening.
0:15:37 > 0:15:40What does it mean to cross an ethical line to enhance
0:15:40 > 0:15:40sporting performance?
0:15:40 > 0:15:42It's the charge being laid at Bradley Wiggins
0:15:43 > 0:15:46by a parliamentary committee report - one that he and Team Sky
0:15:46 > 0:15:47have strongly refuted.
0:15:47 > 0:15:49At the report's centre is the concept of
0:15:49 > 0:15:51Therapeutic Use Exemptions - taking usually banned
0:15:51 > 0:15:52substances in exceptional circumstances for medical need.
0:15:53 > 0:15:56The committee said it believed the system was open to abuse,
0:15:56 > 0:16:00and was unable to say for sure what a mysterious package
0:16:00 > 0:16:02to Wiggins contained back in 2011.
0:16:02 > 0:16:04Bradley Wiggins himself has denied any drug was used
0:16:05 > 0:16:07without medical need and, in an interview this evening,
0:16:07 > 0:16:10claimed that the allegations were "malicious".
0:16:10 > 0:16:13Perhaps the question it throws up is this one -
0:16:13 > 0:16:15some athletes will need drugs for medication,
0:16:15 > 0:16:17but who should decide who and how much?
0:16:17 > 0:16:20Here's Katie Razzall.
0:16:20 > 0:16:23COMMENTATOR:It's a winning ride to win the Tour de France.
0:16:23 > 0:16:25This is malicious, this is someone trying to smear me.
0:16:25 > 0:16:28Six years ago, Bradley Wiggins won the Tour de France.
0:16:28 > 0:16:30The effect it's had, the widespread effect
0:16:30 > 0:16:35on the family is just horrific.
0:16:35 > 0:16:37Bowing to the crowd...
0:16:37 > 0:16:40I don't know how I'm going to pick up the pieces up.
0:16:40 > 0:16:43Now, the way he won is being called into question.
0:16:43 > 0:16:45This is a man fighting for his reputation.
0:16:45 > 0:16:46It used to be so simple.
0:16:46 > 0:16:50The tape is broken and so is the record athletes have long
0:16:50 > 0:16:50been dreaming about.
0:16:51 > 0:16:53This sporting legend, we're told, was sustained on pilchards.
0:16:53 > 0:16:56Back then, Roger Bannister reportedly thought
0:16:56 > 0:17:00it was cheating to speak to your coach on the day of a race.
0:17:00 > 0:17:03His passing came just ahead of a report from the Digital, Culture,
0:17:03 > 0:17:05Media and Sport Select Committee, which pulls no punches.
0:17:05 > 0:17:08They had modern-day athletics in the firing line too,
0:17:08 > 0:17:11but when it comes to cycling, the committee says the application
0:17:11 > 0:17:14by Wiggins's Team Sky for a therapeutic use exemption
0:17:14 > 0:17:18for triamcinolone, a powerful asthma drug with performance
0:17:18 > 0:17:20enhancing qualities, before three of his biggest races,
0:17:20 > 0:17:23crossed the ethical line.
0:17:23 > 0:17:27So with a drug like triamcinolone, which is a very powerful drug,
0:17:27 > 0:17:29it has very powerful beneficial side-effects that give riders
0:17:29 > 0:17:32and edge, we have taken evidence to say, if you are...
0:17:32 > 0:17:36Actually, you don't need to take triamcinolone,
0:17:36 > 0:17:38there are other methods of treating asthma more effectively,
0:17:38 > 0:17:40which means you don't have to take that drug.
0:17:40 > 0:17:43That drug might only normally be used for someone
0:17:43 > 0:17:46who is about to be hospitalised because they're so sick.
0:17:46 > 0:17:48If that's the case, if someone is that ill,
0:17:48 > 0:17:50why are they competing in an elite performance event?
0:17:51 > 0:17:53He's not cheating because he's got a TUE.
0:17:53 > 0:17:55You don't know the situation of the particular athlete
0:17:55 > 0:17:57needing to use it at that time.
0:17:57 > 0:17:59It's certainly pushing the boundaries of are they using
0:18:00 > 0:18:03the system to improve performance or are they using the system to make
0:18:03 > 0:18:05sure the athlete's health is in the right order?
0:18:06 > 0:18:07Pilchards barely come into it.
0:18:07 > 0:18:09These days, sporting success is scientific and at
0:18:09 > 0:18:11London Metropolitan University, athletes use the latest technology
0:18:11 > 0:18:14to optimise their performance.
0:18:14 > 0:18:18While the committee report is clear what it's alleging Team Sky did
0:18:19 > 0:18:21with its TUEs is not against the rules because
0:18:21 > 0:18:23a therapeutic use exemption is authorised by the authorities,
0:18:23 > 0:18:26it does say the system is open to abuse.
0:18:26 > 0:18:29But where is the line to be drawn when it comes to ethics
0:18:29 > 0:18:32in professional sport, and can we ever really
0:18:32 > 0:18:34ensure there's a truly level playing field?
0:18:34 > 0:18:36Facilities like ours are not unusual.
0:18:36 > 0:18:40You can do heat training here, you can do cold training,
0:18:40 > 0:18:44you can do high-altitude training where we can limit oxygen levels.
0:18:44 > 0:18:46And you can argue that those things are not universally
0:18:46 > 0:18:50available because of the cost associated with them.
0:18:50 > 0:18:55And so, there are so many options available to athletes to enhance
0:18:55 > 0:19:01performance and because races and competitions are won by very
0:19:01 > 0:19:03small margins, then athletes and those that support them
0:19:03 > 0:19:06are looking for every opportunity just to enhance
0:19:06 > 0:19:09the performance of the athlete.
0:19:09 > 0:19:14Is the system that regulates sport fit for purpose?
0:19:14 > 0:19:19The select committee wants a change in the law,
0:19:19 > 0:19:21so those who supply sportspeople with performance enhancing
0:19:21 > 0:19:22drugs go to prison.
0:19:22 > 0:19:24They also want better medical record-keeping by team doctors
0:19:25 > 0:19:27and others and more scrutiny of the data.
0:19:27 > 0:19:29Others suggest we should follow Australia and put the monitoring
0:19:29 > 0:19:32of what medicines athletes are provided with into the hands of
0:19:33 > 0:19:34an independent body
0:19:34 > 0:19:36and many argue for a fundamental cultural change.
0:19:36 > 0:19:38There is too much focus on winning.
0:19:38 > 0:19:43We want to be a nation of winners, we want to win, that is important
0:19:43 > 0:19:46to everyone.
0:19:46 > 0:19:48However, what is most important is to win with integrity.
0:19:48 > 0:19:52Sir Bradley Wiggins and Team Sky
0:19:52 > 0:19:55deny they've ever acted without integrity.
0:19:55 > 0:19:58His former employer said today:
0:20:15 > 0:20:21Not at any time during my career did we cross the ethical line.
0:20:21 > 0:20:23These allegations -
0:20:23 > 0:20:25I mean, it's the worst thing to be accused of,
0:20:25 > 0:20:28but it's also the hardest thing to prove you haven't done.
0:20:28 > 0:20:30Because we're not dealing in a legal system.
0:20:30 > 0:20:33I'd have had more rights if I'd murdered someone.
0:20:33 > 0:20:37In those heady days when he was feted and his services
0:20:37 > 0:20:42to cycling earned him a knighthood,
0:20:42 > 0:20:44surely this "living hell", as Wiggins calls it now,
0:20:44 > 0:20:46would have been hard to imagine.
0:20:46 > 0:20:48Earlier, I spoke to Michael Rasmussen.
0:20:48 > 0:20:51He's a Danish professional cyclist whose most notable victories include
0:20:51 > 0:20:53winning four stages of the Tour de France.
0:20:53 > 0:20:56In 2013, he admitted to doping throughout his career.
0:20:56 > 0:20:58I began by asking him whether today's select committee
0:20:58 > 0:21:01report really was a "smear campaign and witch hunt"
0:21:01 > 0:21:05against Bradley Wiggins.
0:21:05 > 0:21:07Well, it's not all about Bradley Wiggins.
0:21:07 > 0:21:11It's just as much about track and field.
0:21:11 > 0:21:14So this is not a report about Bradley Wiggins.
0:21:14 > 0:21:21Of course, him and Sky plays a big part in it.
0:21:21 > 0:21:25What do you make of a doctor, the Team Sky doctor,
0:21:25 > 0:21:29just refusing to give evidence to Parliament?
0:21:29 > 0:21:33Did that strike you as odd?
0:21:33 > 0:21:36It certainly sounds a little hollow
0:21:37 > 0:21:41and if they really wanted to clear up this mess
0:21:41 > 0:21:42and ease the understanding for everybody,
0:21:43 > 0:21:45that would be the easiest thing to do.
0:21:45 > 0:21:48But apparently, they seem to have a hard time
0:21:48 > 0:21:50keeping track of their records.
0:21:50 > 0:21:53Do you understand the difference between crossing an ethical line
0:21:53 > 0:21:58and doing something that was actually illegal?
0:21:58 > 0:22:00There is, of course, a difference.
0:22:00 > 0:22:05The problem for Team Sky is that they have been
0:22:05 > 0:22:11putting themselves into this position by saying it out loud, that
0:22:11 > 0:22:15they would not accept any former dopers in the team.
0:22:15 > 0:22:21If they had just acted like everybody else
0:22:21 > 0:22:25and not telling the whole world that they would be whiter
0:22:25 > 0:22:27or holier than the Pope,
0:22:27 > 0:22:32then it would be a lot easier for them now.
0:22:32 > 0:22:36And do you think Sky the sponsor is putting pressure now on the team
0:22:36 > 0:22:37to clean it up?
0:22:37 > 0:22:40I am sure they have been involved in dealing with the media
0:22:40 > 0:22:41strategy all along.
0:22:41 > 0:22:45They have been backing every decision so far.
0:22:45 > 0:22:48Now, of course, it's a little bit different.
0:22:48 > 0:22:53Now, it's actually an official committee that has come up
0:22:53 > 0:22:58with an entire report about it and have concluded that there has
0:22:58 > 0:23:02been unethical behaviour within Team Sky,
0:23:02 > 0:23:08so it might put things into a different perspective
0:23:08 > 0:23:09for Sky, the sponsor.
0:23:09 > 0:23:12What do you think should happen to Dave Brailsford now?
0:23:12 > 0:23:13Can he remain at Team Sky?
0:23:13 > 0:23:16I think it would be appropriate if he resigned.
0:23:16 > 0:23:19Bradley Wiggins has broken his silence now,
0:23:20 > 0:23:21he's given an interview to the BBC.
0:23:21 > 0:23:25Do you think he has given us all the facts now?
0:23:25 > 0:23:29The way that the TUEs were issued,
0:23:29 > 0:23:32it does not correspond very well what he wrote in his book,
0:23:32 > 0:23:36that he never had any injections besides vaccines.
0:23:36 > 0:23:39And on top of that, it looks very much like
0:23:39 > 0:23:41something you would do if you wanted to improve your
0:23:41 > 0:23:43performance in the Tour de France.
0:23:43 > 0:23:47You don't believe his reasoning that it was for medical need?
0:23:47 > 0:23:52In that case, it would be very convenient to have asthma
0:23:52 > 0:23:54and in that time of the year.
0:23:54 > 0:23:58So you don't believe him?
0:23:59 > 0:24:01I think there's more to it than what he's saying.
0:24:01 > 0:24:04And do you think that whatever happens from now on,
0:24:04 > 0:24:08his legacy is now over?
0:24:08 > 0:24:14Well, the problem is that he didn't break,
0:24:14 > 0:24:19didn't break the rules in the sporting perspective.
0:24:19 > 0:24:23But he certainly crossed the line from an ethical perspective.
0:24:23 > 0:24:25Michael Rasmussen there.
0:24:25 > 0:24:29Sir Bradley Wiggins said tonight that he "100%" did not cheat
0:24:29 > 0:24:33and that he is the victim of an attempt to "smear" him.
0:24:33 > 0:24:36Team Sky said it "strongly refutes" the report's
0:24:36 > 0:24:38"claim that medication has been used by the team
0:24:38 > 0:24:42to enhance performance."
0:24:42 > 0:24:45We are going to be hearing a lot more about pay transparency -
0:24:45 > 0:24:47and not just here at the BBC.
0:24:47 > 0:24:50UK companies will soon have to publish their gender pay gaps -
0:24:50 > 0:24:53the gap between the average pay of men and women.
0:24:53 > 0:24:55There are thousands still to cough up their numbers.
0:24:55 > 0:24:59Still, the data in so far shows that 74% of companies pay men,
0:24:59 > 0:25:00on average, more than women.
0:25:00 > 0:25:03But are we just tinkering at the edges of what's
0:25:03 > 0:25:05needed to address concerns around gender pay?
0:25:05 > 0:25:07And are there other benefits to being more
0:25:07 > 0:25:09open about what we earn?
0:25:09 > 0:25:12Helen Thomas reports.
0:25:21 > 0:25:25Like the icy waters around Stockholm's archipelago,
0:25:25 > 0:25:28openness is inherently Swedish.
0:25:28 > 0:25:33The right to freely seek information is written into the constitution.
0:25:33 > 0:25:36It's known as 'offentlighetsprincipen' -
0:25:36 > 0:25:41the public access principle.
0:25:41 > 0:25:44It's about a month until UK companies with over 250 people
0:25:44 > 0:25:47had to have published their gender pay gap.
0:25:48 > 0:25:52That's the gap between the average pay of men and women.
0:25:52 > 0:25:55It's different from equal pay,
0:25:56 > 0:26:01which is whether men and women are paid the same
0:26:01 > 0:26:03for doing the same or similar jobs,
0:26:03 > 0:26:05but it is a step towards pay transparency.
0:26:05 > 0:26:08Here in Sweden, it's a bit easier.
0:26:08 > 0:26:11You can request pay information through trade unions
0:26:11 > 0:26:14or equality watchdogs
0:26:14 > 0:26:17and companies have to carry out a full pay audit every year.
0:26:17 > 0:26:21And there's another way that anyone feeling aggrieved
0:26:21 > 0:26:23or just curious can take a look
0:26:23 > 0:26:26at what their neighbours or colleagues might be earning.
0:26:26 > 0:26:29Hi.
0:26:29 > 0:26:32I'm looking for some information about these people, please.
0:26:32 > 0:26:33You have only name?
0:26:33 > 0:26:37Yeah, I only have their names. I think this might be her.
0:26:37 > 0:26:39Let me see.
0:26:39 > 0:26:40It's very interesting.
0:26:40 > 0:26:42Bjorn Ulvaeus? Of course.
0:26:42 > 0:26:44This is his date of birth.
0:26:44 > 0:26:46English.
0:26:46 > 0:26:48Oh, thank you.
0:26:48 > 0:26:49Stefan Edberg?
0:26:49 > 0:26:51I could ask for anyone?
0:26:51 > 0:26:52For anyone.
0:26:52 > 0:26:54Dolph Lundgren.
0:26:54 > 0:26:56Of course, just a moment please.
0:26:56 > 0:26:58We have only one Dolph Lundgren.
0:26:58 > 0:26:59Really?
0:26:59 > 0:27:05Well, there is only one Dolph Lundgren.
0:27:05 > 0:27:08It feels a bit odd, actually.
0:27:08 > 0:27:11Anyone can get a range of tax and earnings information
0:27:11 > 0:27:14about any Swedish individual.
0:27:14 > 0:27:18So I've got the details of someone I'm due to meet later,
0:27:18 > 0:27:22a presenter off a leading Swedish current affairs programme,
0:27:22 > 0:27:25and a range of famous people
0:27:25 > 0:27:27from Stefan Edberg to Bjorn Ulvaeus -
0:27:27 > 0:27:30that's Bjorn from ABBA to you and me.
0:27:30 > 0:27:32Sweden's gender pay gap is about 12%,
0:27:32 > 0:27:34below the European average.
0:27:35 > 0:27:37The UK's is 18%.
0:27:37 > 0:27:41But Sweden's equality minister still sees a problem.
0:27:41 > 0:27:44We know there is an undervaluation
0:27:44 > 0:27:50of women's work compared to men's work and that is really a disgrace.
0:27:50 > 0:27:55We have to do more to put pressure so that these differences disappear.
0:27:55 > 0:27:59I think that if a country or a government wants to change
0:28:00 > 0:28:06gender inequalities, they have to address that
0:28:06 > 0:28:09because otherwise, you won't see, talking about transparency,
0:28:09 > 0:28:15that this really is about a power shift.
0:28:15 > 0:28:17So, transparency is very important and has been for us
0:28:17 > 0:28:21but you also have to talk about gender inequalities.
0:28:21 > 0:28:24Back home, only about one-sixth of the companies required
0:28:24 > 0:28:31to report their gender pay gap have done so.
0:28:31 > 0:28:35That leaves about 7,500 to go before early April then.
0:28:35 > 0:28:38It concerns the woman who secured government support for pay gap
0:28:38 > 0:28:41reporting in 2015.
0:28:41 > 0:28:44I'm a bit disappointed with the way the regulations,
0:28:44 > 0:28:46the details of those have been brought up,
0:28:46 > 0:28:48because there aren't any firm sanctions.
0:28:48 > 0:28:50There's no fines that can be imposed on companies.
0:28:51 > 0:28:55There is a transparency mechanism, so if firms are not compliant,
0:28:55 > 0:28:57then effectively, they can be named and shamed.
0:28:57 > 0:28:59So what would you actually like to see happen?
0:28:59 > 0:29:01What more would you like to see happen?
0:29:02 > 0:29:05We absolutely need to look at what more we can do to right this
0:29:05 > 0:29:08injustice and that could be more transparency, it could be people
0:29:08 > 0:29:11being able to get more information from their employer,
0:29:11 > 0:29:14it could be more responsibilities on the companies themselves to do
0:29:14 > 0:29:17more digging into their own data so they are able to justify any pay
0:29:18 > 0:29:22differentials that do exist.
0:29:23 > 0:29:27Everyone at GrantTree knows what everyone else earns.
0:29:28 > 0:29:30The first day I got into the company,
0:29:30 > 0:29:34I was just sent my pay information and at first, I was a bit confused.
0:29:34 > 0:29:38There was a lot of pay information on one spreadsheet and I was just
0:29:38 > 0:29:41scrolling down and all of the pay information was on that spreadsheet!
0:29:42 > 0:29:45I thought that was pretty startling, but you get used to it.
0:29:45 > 0:29:47The company helps other businesses apply for government grants.
0:29:47 > 0:29:50It uses a type of self-management called Holacracy and part
0:29:50 > 0:29:55of that is pay transparency.
0:29:55 > 0:29:57You can go into this spreadsheet at any time
0:29:57 > 0:29:59and everybody is listed in here.
0:29:59 > 0:29:59Here's me.
0:29:59 > 0:30:01And you can see what somebody's salary is
0:30:02 > 0:30:09and also the reason for it.
0:30:09 > 0:30:12If we look here, you can see my salary is 51,500 from the
0:30:12 > 0:30:15pay review that we just finished earlier this year.
0:30:15 > 0:30:17But this isn't about gender pay or discrimination.
0:30:17 > 0:30:22They just think it's a better way of doing things.
0:30:22 > 0:30:25By sharing information about pay and actually by sharing information
0:30:25 > 0:30:28about all of the financial health of the company with all
0:30:28 > 0:30:31of the people who work here, we build a lot of trust
0:30:31 > 0:30:32in that relationship.
0:30:32 > 0:30:35And there's an awful lot of work that suggests that actually,
0:30:35 > 0:30:38the amount of trust that you experience at work, how sort
0:30:38 > 0:30:41of psychologically safe you feel, really has an impact on the quality
0:30:41 > 0:30:48of the work that you can do.
0:30:48 > 0:30:51One argument in favour of transparency is that actually,
0:30:51 > 0:30:53we're all pretty bad at judging how we are paid.
0:30:53 > 0:30:57Research in the US by PayScale found that nearly 90% of people
0:30:57 > 0:30:59who thought they were underpaid were actually paid in line
0:30:59 > 0:31:04or above market rates.
0:31:04 > 0:31:06Greater transparency can of course cause some problems,
0:31:06 > 0:31:08some awkward conversations, but longer term, there
0:31:08 > 0:31:10is evidence it can also mean improved morale,
0:31:10 > 0:31:17better productivity and improved retention.
0:31:17 > 0:31:19In Sweden, transparency seems to be seen primarily
0:31:19 > 0:31:24as a democratic ideal, not a tool for pay.
0:31:24 > 0:31:28Camilla Wagner is a consultant on gender issues.
0:31:28 > 0:31:33Do you think that people use the tools they have here enough?
0:31:33 > 0:31:36No, not enough.
0:31:36 > 0:31:39I always advise people, if they are going into a negotiation,
0:31:39 > 0:31:42you should really get all the information you can.
0:31:43 > 0:31:45So just call the Swedish tax agency and make sure that
0:31:46 > 0:31:48you have the information on people with similar jobs in that
0:31:49 > 0:31:53organisation to see what they make.
0:31:53 > 0:31:56So why do you think people don't use the tax information?
0:31:56 > 0:31:58Is it sort of cultural reticence?
0:31:58 > 0:32:02Yes, it is a cultural thing in Sweden, we never talk about money.
0:32:02 > 0:32:05It's easier to talk about STDs than it is to talk about how
0:32:06 > 0:32:08much money you make, which is really something we need
0:32:08 > 0:32:19to get over if we want to close the gender gap.
0:32:19 > 0:32:22Some think this is all just a storm over statistics,
0:32:22 > 0:32:25that the pay gap can be explained by seniority, types of work
0:32:25 > 0:32:28or career choices, but even among those who see a serious
0:32:28 > 0:32:31and persistent problem, there is debate.
0:32:32 > 0:32:34Is it better to free up information and allow individuals
0:32:34 > 0:32:42to fight their own battles?
0:32:42 > 0:32:45Or is government enforcement needed to stop women
0:32:45 > 0:32:46being left out in the cold?
0:32:46 > 0:32:49He once described chatting with the Queen as like 'catching
0:32:49 > 0:32:50up with an old mate'.
0:32:50 > 0:32:54Certainly, there was a life roundly lived by the man who not only
0:32:54 > 0:32:57invented wind-up radio, but also worked as a TV stuntman
0:32:57 > 0:33:02and aquatic showman.
0:33:03 > 0:33:05The death of Trevor Baylis was announced today, aged 80,
0:33:05 > 0:33:06after a long illness.
0:33:06 > 0:33:13He was interviewed here on Newsnight in 2013.
0:33:13 > 0:33:16We thought you might appreciate the chance to listen again to one
0:33:16 > 0:33:18of the foremost inventors of our age.
0:33:18 > 0:33:19My name's Trevor Baylis.
0:33:19 > 0:33:21I call myself an inventor.
0:33:21 > 0:33:23This workshop is where it all began.
0:33:23 > 0:33:25This is the graveyard of a thousand domestic
0:33:25 > 0:33:26appliances, if you understand?
0:33:26 > 0:33:28I'm known, I guess, for making the clockwork radio.
0:33:28 > 0:33:30That's how I wound it up.
0:33:30 > 0:33:32It'll be interesting to see if it still works.
0:33:32 > 0:33:35RADIO CRACKLES.
0:33:35 > 0:33:37Yeah.
0:33:37 > 0:33:39I was watching a programme about the spread of HIV/Aids
0:33:39 > 0:33:43in Africa and they said the only way that they could stop this dreadful
0:33:43 > 0:33:45disease cutting its way through all those places
0:33:45 > 0:33:47was through radio and music, communication,
0:33:47 > 0:33:48but there was a problem.
0:33:48 > 0:33:51Most people in Africa didn't have electricity and the only other form
0:33:52 > 0:33:54of electricity was in the form of batteries, which were
0:33:54 > 0:33:55horrendously expensive.
0:33:55 > 0:33:57I'm then thinking to myself, hang on...
0:33:57 > 0:34:00All those years ago, I can see myself with an old-fashioned
0:34:00 > 0:34:03gramophone and I thought, you know, you wind this thing up
0:34:03 > 0:34:06and you can get all of that noise by dragging a rusty nail around
0:34:06 > 0:34:09a piece of old Bakelite, as it were, and that produces
0:34:09 > 0:34:12that volume of sound, so there must be enough energy
0:34:12 > 0:34:15in that spring to drive a small dynamo which,
0:34:15 > 0:34:26in turn, would drive a radio.
0:34:26 > 0:34:30Trevor Baylis there.
0:34:30 > 0:34:33Tomorrow morning, Public Health England are launching a new strategy
0:34:33 > 0:34:34to prevent childhood obesity.
0:34:34 > 0:34:37We got the first peek and the figures in its
0:34:37 > 0:34:39report are shocking.
0:34:39 > 0:34:42Children living in poor areas are twice as likely to be obese
0:34:42 > 0:34:50as their wealthier neighbours.
0:34:50 > 0:34:53London has the highest rate of childhood obesity of any peer
0:34:53 > 0:34:58global city and the deprivation gap has increased by over
0:34:58 > 0:35:0250% in ten years.
0:35:02 > 0:35:05So what's the best way to tackle this?
0:35:05 > 0:35:07This morning's Times quoted Jamie Oliver questioning how
0:35:07 > 0:35:08you change behaviour.
0:35:08 > 0:35:10He says middle-class logic won't affect behavioural
0:35:10 > 0:35:12change in our low-income, unhealthy eating families.
0:35:12 > 0:35:15So, what's the best way to get the healthy eating message
0:35:15 > 0:35:17across, or will it only ever sound patronising?
0:35:17 > 0:35:19Jo Lewis is the Food for Life Policy Director.
0:35:19 > 0:35:21Dawn Foster is a commentator and author.
0:35:21 > 0:35:23Nice to have you both here.
0:35:23 > 0:35:25Do you think campaigns like this make any difference?
0:35:25 > 0:35:29Food for life is not a campaign telling people to do things
0:35:29 > 0:35:30differently in their lives.
0:35:30 > 0:35:33It is a campaign that dries to make healthy food easy and normal
0:35:33 > 0:35:35for families in all walks of life.
0:35:35 > 0:35:38We work with schools, nurseries, caterers and we make sure that
0:35:38 > 0:35:42healthy option is normal and easy and enjoyable for everyone.
0:35:42 > 0:35:45So the key thing is, you are not telling people what to do,
0:35:45 > 0:35:48you are just taking away options that don't work?
0:35:48 > 0:35:50Well, that is right, and making the good food,
0:35:50 > 0:35:55the fresh and minimally processed food easily available.
0:35:55 > 0:35:58All the evidence shows childhood obesity is not some big national
0:35:58 > 0:35:59failure of will power.
0:35:59 > 0:36:04And that we are, it is just a normal response to an abnormal environment.
0:36:04 > 0:36:05Look at the backdrop, this is the unhealthy food
0:36:05 > 0:36:08environment surrounding bars and the choices people make,
0:36:08 > 0:36:09they are time constraint and heavily influenced
0:36:10 > 0:36:18by what is on offer around them.
0:36:18 > 0:36:22Dawn Foster, is that right, if you just take away the bad stuff,
0:36:22 > 0:36:24people will have to eat the good stuff?
0:36:24 > 0:36:32Is that a brutal but fair way of making us eat more healthily?
0:36:32 > 0:36:33I think it is very complex.
0:36:33 > 0:36:36Often, people think that if you take away certain
0:36:36 > 0:36:38options in supermarkets, it may change eating habits.
0:36:38 > 0:36:41One of the big issues is both time and money.
0:36:41 > 0:36:45A lot of people don't have the time to spend a lot of time cooking
0:36:45 > 0:36:47and they don't have the knowledge to help them.
0:36:47 > 0:36:51I speak to a lot of families and have visited homes in fuel
0:36:51 > 0:36:54poverty and it is often cheaper to to cook in a microwave and that
0:36:55 > 0:37:19limits what you feed your children.
0:37:19 > 0:37:22So you do not turn the other non-?
0:37:22 > 0:37:25Yes, it costs a lot more money and is very fuel intensive
0:37:25 > 0:37:29and if you can use the microwave, it is a lot cheaper and that means
0:37:29 > 0:37:31it limits what you can feed your children.
0:37:31 > 0:37:35And when we look at the choices available for a lot of people,
0:37:35 > 0:37:37it is very limited and not especially healthy.
0:37:37 > 0:37:40Take the five day or what you should be doing, the traffic lights,
0:37:40 > 0:37:44do those have any effect or is this a middle-class conscience salver?
0:37:44 > 0:37:47I think a lot of people feel bombarded by a lot of very
0:37:47 > 0:37:48conflicting messages on health.
0:37:48 > 0:37:51With five day, recently, it moved up to eight, or ten,
0:37:51 > 0:37:54and a lot of people felt that was out of the realms
0:37:54 > 0:37:57of possibility, very expensive, and they disregard it.
0:37:57 > 0:37:59We are often bombarded with lots of conflicting issues
0:37:59 > 0:38:00and what we needed more time and more so people can invest.
0:38:01 > 0:38:01More legislation?
0:38:01 > 0:38:04I would like to see more legislation so people get paid better
0:38:05 > 0:38:06and we can beat poverty.
0:38:06 > 0:38:08Then we can look more at what we eat.
0:38:08 > 0:38:12It is a very different thing to saying we should get rid of buy
0:38:12 > 0:38:15one get one free offers, we should get rid of cheaper fast
0:38:15 > 0:38:17food shops on every street corner.
0:38:17 > 0:38:20Would you go as far as saying legislation has to take
0:38:20 > 0:38:22over because the public will is not there?
0:38:22 > 0:38:25Yes, the former Chief Executive of Sainsbury's, when the childhood
0:38:25 > 0:38:27obesity plan was published, he said even the supermarkets
0:38:27 > 0:38:29need a level playing field and legislation.
0:38:29 > 0:38:33It is very hard to move ahead of the others in terms of getting
0:38:33 > 0:38:34rid of junk food promotions.
0:38:34 > 0:38:37We buy 40% of what we eat on promotion, it
0:38:37 > 0:38:38nearly always junk food.
0:38:38 > 0:38:42So we need to see promotions for healthy food and also I agree
0:38:42 > 0:38:46with what Dawn said.
0:38:46 > 0:38:48If they went, would you feel patronised by that,
0:38:48 > 0:38:52I can make my own choices as to when we eat junk food,
0:38:52 > 0:38:55or would you say you much prefer having all the toys taken out
0:38:55 > 0:39:02as they did with smoking because it just levels at?
0:39:02 > 0:39:05I think if we look at what food, as Jo said, is heavily marketed
0:39:06 > 0:39:08and make sure fresh fruit and vegetables were marketed
0:39:08 > 0:39:11in the same way and is cheap, that would change eating habits.
0:39:11 > 0:39:14At the moment, big bags of frozen chips, they are very cheap
0:39:14 > 0:39:17and potatoes, most -- expensive if they are loose
0:39:17 > 0:39:20and changing the way supermarkets operate is a good way of doing it
0:39:20 > 0:39:24without making people feel they are dictated to.
0:39:24 > 0:39:28The bottom line is that when you are time poor and finishing
0:39:28 > 0:39:30one shift and going straight to another shift, you don't
0:39:30 > 0:39:34want to wait for another and to warm up or you cannot afford the fuel,
0:39:34 > 0:39:37inevitably, it is going to be the cheapest and quickest
0:39:37 > 0:39:46thing to put in the oven.
0:39:46 > 0:39:49We all understand that, I am a mother of two children
0:39:49 > 0:39:53and I know what it is like to not feel I have the money,
0:39:53 > 0:39:54the time, the headspace.
0:39:54 > 0:39:57If it is like that for me from a middle-class background,
0:39:57 > 0:39:59how much more challenging is it?
0:39:59 > 0:40:01We have to get realistic and sympathetic about what is
0:40:01 > 0:40:04influencing eating habits and the real choices people face,
0:40:04 > 0:40:05we have to make it easy.
0:40:06 > 0:40:10The best place to begin is one good meal a day in schools and nurseries
0:40:10 > 0:40:13and that is what we're trying to do with Food for Life.
0:40:13 > 0:40:16The evidence is if you get the children cooking and growing
0:40:16 > 0:40:19and understanding where food comes from, it has a significant impact
0:40:19 > 0:40:22on their appetite for fruit and vegetables and it will set them
0:40:22 > 0:40:24up for life.
0:40:24 > 0:40:26Thank you both very much.
0:40:26 > 0:40:27That's it for tonight.
0:40:27 > 0:40:30We leave you with news of a fresh outbreak of social
0:40:30 > 0:40:32media outrage at the BBC, over the endlessly controversial
0:40:32 > 0:40:36series five, episode seven of CBeebies children's programme
0:40:36 > 0:40:40'Show Me Show Me.' On behalf of the BBC, can we just say
0:40:40 > 0:40:42to the haters out there, we have no idea
0:40:42 > 0:40:43what you're on about!
0:40:43 > 0:40:43Goodnight.
0:40:43 > 0:40:45Fluttering and dancing in the wind.
0:40:45 > 0:40:48# Imagine, imagine, imagine, you're a fluttering kite # Imagine,
0:40:48 > 0:40:51imagine, imagine, you flutter at great height # You zip and dip
0:40:51 > 0:40:55and zip and dip and zip and flutter by # You zip and dip,
0:40:55 > 0:40:57you're dancing in the sky # Imagine, imagine, imagine, you're
0:40:58 > 0:41:05a fluttering kite #.