0:00:05 > 0:00:08The Foreign Secretary laid into the Russian State today
0:00:08 > 0:00:11as we await to hear what has befallen the one time double agent,
0:00:11 > 0:00:14former MI6 spy, and Russian colonel Sergei Skripal and his daughter
0:00:14 > 0:00:16Yulia, who are still critically ill in hospital.
0:00:16 > 0:00:22We're live from Salisbury.
0:00:22 > 0:00:29I am in the city finding out about the man who, we understand, it chose
0:00:29 > 0:00:31Salisbury for its low crime rate and his daughter who moved freely
0:00:31 > 0:00:35between Russia and the UK.
0:00:35 > 0:00:36So as the counter terrorism unit
0:00:36 > 0:00:38in the Met takes over the case,
0:00:38 > 0:00:39what do we actually know?
0:00:39 > 0:00:42As the foreign secretary talks about Russia as a 'malign force'
0:00:42 > 0:00:45on the international scene, the former British spy and his
0:00:45 > 0:00:47daughter fight for their lives. We'll be hearing from the chair
0:00:47 > 0:00:50of the foreign affairs select committee, and the former security
0:00:50 > 0:00:52minister Baroness Neville Jones.
0:00:52 > 0:00:54Also tonight, the Bank of England Chief Economist
0:00:54 > 0:00:58on addressing its elitist past?
0:00:58 > 0:01:00I was probably one of the first vintages that did not go
0:01:00 > 0:01:02to Oxford or Cambridge.
0:01:02 > 0:01:04That did not go to a public school.
0:01:04 > 0:01:06That might come at things from slightly different angles.
0:01:06 > 0:01:14The bank I joined might not have valued that as much.
0:01:17 > 0:01:19And this...
0:01:19 > 0:01:22If you look simply at social media, you will see hundreds and hundreds
0:01:22 > 0:01:23and hundreds of videos.
0:01:23 > 0:01:26You need to know where and when each one of those bits of evidence...
0:01:26 > 0:01:27Was recorded.
0:01:27 > 0:01:29The architects turned forensic data detectives who investigate
0:01:29 > 0:01:37human rights abuses.
0:01:39 > 0:01:41Good evening.
0:01:41 > 0:01:42Tonight Sergei Skripal - a former colonel
0:01:42 > 0:01:47in Russian Military Intelligence who was convicted of passing
0:01:47 > 0:01:49state secrets to MI6, and his 33-year-old daughter
0:01:49 > 0:01:53Yulia, are still in a critical condition in hospital in Salisbury.
0:01:53 > 0:01:55In hospital too is one of the emergency services personnel
0:01:55 > 0:01:57who attended the scene when they were found
0:01:57 > 0:02:00unconscious in the town.
0:02:00 > 0:02:02The military research facility at Porton Down is believed to be
0:02:02 > 0:02:04examining unknown material, and the Counter Terrorism Policing
0:02:04 > 0:02:07Network at the Met is now in charge of the investigation,
0:02:07 > 0:02:09but so far we know nothing about what happened to them,
0:02:09 > 0:02:16if they were poisoned, or, if they were, by whom.
0:02:16 > 0:02:18That didn't stop the Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson
0:02:18 > 0:02:20addressing the Commons to say that the disturbing incident
0:02:20 > 0:02:22had echoes of the death of Alexander Litvinenko and that
0:02:22 > 0:02:25Russia, is "in many respects a malign and disruptive force."
0:02:25 > 0:02:28I'm joined by our Diplomatic Editor Mark Urban, who has news
0:02:28 > 0:02:36of a development tonight.
0:02:37 > 0:02:41What have you been hearing? We have known since Sunday afternoon when
0:02:41 > 0:02:47this happened that Sergei and Yulia were in critical condition. This
0:02:47 > 0:02:52phrase has been consistently use. What I am hearing tonight is despite
0:02:52 > 0:02:56the sending of those samples to Porton Down, that they still do not
0:02:56 > 0:03:02know what poisoned this pair of individuals on Sunday. They are very
0:03:02 > 0:03:07worried about this. One said to me, we are treating the symptoms rather
0:03:07 > 0:03:12than causes and that is not a good direction to be going on. Another
0:03:12 > 0:03:19person said to me, that Sergei Skripal was not in a good way and
0:03:19 > 0:03:22there is a lot of concern about their condition could worsen.Thank
0:03:22 > 0:03:26you. We will join you shortly.
0:03:26 > 0:03:29We'll hear more from Mark Urban shortly but now let's go live
0:03:29 > 0:03:31to Salisbury where our correspondent Katie Razzall has been looking
0:03:31 > 0:03:37into the life of Sergei Skripal and his daughter, Yulia.
0:03:37 > 0:03:43Hello. I have been spending the day in Salisbury trying to find out
0:03:43 > 0:03:47about Sergei and why he chose to live in Wiltshire in this city
0:03:47 > 0:03:51predominantly known for its wonderful cathedral. Today, things
0:03:51 > 0:03:56continued almost as normal, the market was on in the city centre,
0:03:56 > 0:03:59although passers-by did appear perplexed and been used and even a
0:03:59 > 0:04:05little fearful to see parts of that centre cordoned off and gardened --
0:04:05 > 0:04:10guarded by the police. I learned more about Yulia, who we now know
0:04:10 > 0:04:13was found with her father when the pair fell ill on Sunday afternoon.
0:04:13 > 0:04:18Family and friends have told us that although Yulia originally moved to
0:04:18 > 0:04:23the UK to live with her family, she missed Russia and now lives in
0:04:23 > 0:04:29Moscow and has worked for various multi-nationals including Pepsi. She
0:04:29 > 0:04:33is the only surviving child of Sergei Skripal. His son died,
0:04:33 > 0:04:37reportedly of liver failure just last year, his wife had died of
0:04:37 > 0:04:42cancer here in the UK just five years before.
0:04:42 > 0:04:45Amongst the graves in a cemetery in the Wiltshire city of Salisbury
0:04:45 > 0:04:46lies Lyudmila Skripal.
0:04:46 > 0:04:48Wife of the former Russian colonel Sergei Skripal.
0:04:48 > 0:04:51Across the grass we found the resting place of the couple's
0:04:51 > 0:04:53son who died, according to relatives, in suspicious
0:04:53 > 0:04:58circumstances in Saint Petersburg last year.
0:04:58 > 0:05:00Two Russians buried on British soil.
0:05:00 > 0:05:02Their closest living relatives now fighting for their lives
0:05:02 > 0:05:06in the local hospital.
0:05:06 > 0:05:09A father brought to the UK in a spy exchange in 2010,
0:05:09 > 0:05:12we discovered today the woman found beside him in the centre
0:05:12 > 0:05:18of Salisbury on Sunday afternoon was his 33-year-old daughter Yulia.
0:05:18 > 0:05:22The Skripal house was being guarded by officers today.
0:05:22 > 0:05:25A quiet cul-de-sac now the focus of huge attention.
0:05:25 > 0:05:28Newsnight has been told by a family friend that Sergei Skripal chose
0:05:28 > 0:05:31to relocate to this city because he believed it was a good
0:05:31 > 0:05:36area with a low crime rate.
0:05:36 > 0:05:39We understand initially the family moved here to Salisbury where both
0:05:39 > 0:05:42adult children were able to travel back and forth between Russia
0:05:42 > 0:05:49and Wiltshire freely, despite their father's banishment.
0:05:49 > 0:05:51A family friend told Newsnight they believed Yulia had
0:05:51 > 0:05:53missed her home country.
0:05:53 > 0:05:55They said they thought she had returned to Russia.
0:05:55 > 0:05:59Then in 2014 she was back in the UK working at a hotel in Southampton,
0:05:59 > 0:06:03before moving again to Russia.
0:06:03 > 0:06:06We were tipped off that the city's Railway social club has played host
0:06:06 > 0:06:09to the former Russian spy.
0:06:09 > 0:06:17A source had told Newsnight Mr Skripal's only friends
0:06:18 > 0:06:21were in British intelligence but here we saw his application
0:06:21 > 0:06:22for membership.
0:06:22 > 0:06:25A sign perhaps that he was trying to find some kind of local life.
0:06:25 > 0:06:28It tells me that he applied for membership on the 22nd of October.
0:06:28 > 0:06:32That was when we posted it on the board.
0:06:32 > 0:06:38For other people to say yes or no to him being a member of the club.
0:06:38 > 0:06:41Then it went to the committee and they decided on the 15th
0:06:41 > 0:06:44of November that yes, he was a member, could be a member.
0:06:44 > 0:06:46And so subsequently we issued him with a membership card.
0:06:46 > 0:06:49Salisbury's inhabitants are unused to being at the centre
0:06:49 > 0:06:50of an international incident.
0:06:50 > 0:06:54With police today confirming a development.
0:06:54 > 0:06:57You will be aware this afternoon the Metropolitan Police have
0:06:57 > 0:06:59confirmed that due to the unusual circumstances the counterterrorism
0:06:59 > 0:07:01network will be leading this investigation, as it has
0:07:01 > 0:07:09the specialist capability and expertise to do so.
0:07:10 > 0:07:13It is important to reiterate they have not declared this
0:07:13 > 0:07:16as a terrorist incident.
0:07:16 > 0:07:19As at this stage they are keeping an open mind
0:07:19 > 0:07:21as to what has happened.
0:07:21 > 0:07:28The police are an unusually visible presence here.
0:07:28 > 0:07:30They've closed the local branch of Zizzi's.
0:07:30 > 0:07:33It is assumed Mr Skripal and his daughter must have visited
0:07:33 > 0:07:34the restaurant on Sunday.
0:07:34 > 0:07:36They were then captured on CCTV walking down this alley.
0:07:36 > 0:07:38This footage taken less than half an hour before
0:07:38 > 0:07:40they were found slumped on a bench.
0:07:40 > 0:07:41That bench hidden by a tent.
0:07:41 > 0:07:45Whatever samples have been recovered from Mr Skripal and his daughter
0:07:45 > 0:07:48in hospital are being analysed at Porton Down, the chemical
0:07:48 > 0:07:53and biological warfare facility a few miles from here.
0:07:53 > 0:07:55It's been reported that Mr Skripal had voiced concerns
0:07:55 > 0:07:58that he could be the subject of an assassination attempt.
0:07:58 > 0:08:01But one family friend told Newsnight they believe Yulia Skripal was not
0:08:01 > 0:08:02worried enough about her own safety.
0:08:02 > 0:08:10Both remain tonight in a critical condition in intensive care.
0:08:14 > 0:08:15Mark's still here.
0:08:15 > 0:08:22Have you got any more information about his life in the UK?
0:08:22 > 0:08:27I have heard some similar things to the line that Katie picked up, that
0:08:27 > 0:08:32for years, his social life if you can call it that, revolve largely
0:08:32 > 0:08:36around MI6 people who were looking after him. Apparently they were
0:08:36 > 0:08:40frequent visitors and I am told it is part of what they regard as the
0:08:40 > 0:08:45after-care package, that it is a lifelong bond with someone who has
0:08:45 > 0:08:49given information. The daughter and the sun travels back and forth a lot
0:08:49 > 0:08:57and I have heard some indications that she may have been back, Yulia
0:08:57 > 0:09:01that is, for the anniversary last week, the 1st of March, it was
0:09:01 > 0:09:06Sasha's, the Sun's birth date and that was going to be a particularly
0:09:06 > 0:09:09difficult time for Mr Skripal and that may well be why she was with
0:09:09 > 0:09:13him and given him support over those few days. It may also be that that
0:09:13 > 0:09:16was the last time that some of his friends from British intelligence
0:09:16 > 0:09:23were there as well.Tell me about the significance of the graves being
0:09:23 > 0:09:31in Salisbury.From what one can gather, because he lived in a fairly
0:09:31 > 0:09:34isolated way, these were a very important part of his life. We know
0:09:34 > 0:09:39that his son died while in St Petersburg and clearly efforts were
0:09:39 > 0:09:46made to bring the body back to the UK, so that he could be buried here
0:09:46 > 0:09:51and so that Mr Skripal could grieve at his grave.
0:09:51 > 0:09:54Some of the political reaction and some of the other
0:09:54 > 0:09:59recent cases where Russia was allegedly involved...
0:09:59 > 0:10:03Until we get some definite indication on this, everyone will
0:10:03 > 0:10:06make assumptions because of Litvinenko and some of the other
0:10:06 > 0:10:09incidents where people have been targeted. That is the problem now,
0:10:09 > 0:10:16in a way, it may be that there was a list of 14 compiled as a -- as
0:10:16 > 0:10:20suspicious deaths, and because of what happened, the presumption
0:10:20 > 0:10:23immediately goes to Russian organised crime intelligence
0:10:23 > 0:10:26services and was this an assassination.Thank you very much
0:10:26 > 0:10:28indeed.
0:10:28 > 0:10:31Earlier I spoke to the Conservative MP Tom Tugenhadt, chair
0:10:31 > 0:10:35of the Foreign Affairs Select Committee.
0:10:35 > 0:10:40I'm terribly sorry, you have got your piece first.
0:10:40 > 0:10:44It is too early to speculate as to the precise nature of the crime or
0:10:44 > 0:10:51attempted crime that has taken place in Salisbury yesterday. But I know
0:10:51 > 0:11:00members will have their suspicions. And what I will say to the house is
0:11:00 > 0:11:03that if those suspicions proved to be well founded then this government
0:11:03 > 0:11:06will take whatever measures we deem necessary to protect the lives of
0:11:06 > 0:11:12the people in this country, our values and our freedoms.A tough
0:11:12 > 0:11:17statement from the Foreign Secretary with its reference to crime
0:11:17 > 0:11:19committed in Salisbury and potentially highly embarrassing if
0:11:19 > 0:11:25Russia had nothing to do with it. But borrowers had clearly been
0:11:25 > 0:11:29briefed by the police and intelligence services. The Russian
0:11:29 > 0:11:32embassy took umbrage at his statement, the press secretary
0:11:32 > 0:11:34commenting...
0:11:46 > 0:11:51But the Russians have acted before. Alexander Litvinenko was poisoned by
0:11:51 > 0:11:56the Russian state an inquest ruled and back case has ended up defining
0:11:56 > 0:12:01Anglo Russian relations for the best part of a decade.I think it is
0:12:01 > 0:12:05inevitable that people will suspect that Russia is involved and I and
0:12:05 > 0:12:09others are being very careful not to say that we are quite clear that
0:12:09 > 0:12:12this was the Russian state, authorised all the way to the top.
0:12:12 > 0:12:18We cannot know that. As I say, I think Russian protests of innocence
0:12:18 > 0:12:23would be more convincing if there was not this long-term pattern of
0:12:23 > 0:12:27using this sort of poisoning as a way of getting rid of enemies of the
0:12:27 > 0:12:32state.And in addition to the successful assassinations there have
0:12:32 > 0:12:39been other attempts. In 2008, we reported that MI5 had stopped an
0:12:39 > 0:12:50attempt to killed far as Berezovsky. This man came here to kill me and my
0:12:50 > 0:12:57life was in danger here. In
0:12:59 > 0:13:02life was in danger here. In 20 13th Boris Berezovsky did die.Evidence
0:13:02 > 0:13:05pointed to suicide, but others believe something else. The early
0:13:05 > 0:13:08story about the assassination attempt at him made us few friends.
0:13:08 > 0:13:12When we ran the story saying that MI5 believed that Litvinenko had
0:13:12 > 0:13:17been killed by Russian intelligence and that they had tried to kill
0:13:17 > 0:13:20Boris Berezovsky as well, we came under pressure. Whitehall officials
0:13:20 > 0:13:25tried to persuade us not to run the story and when we did, Downing
0:13:25 > 0:13:30Street disowned it and the Russian media attacked us for trying to
0:13:30 > 0:13:35damage a reset in relations between Gordon Brown and the then Russian
0:13:35 > 0:13:38President. What all that showed was the kind of conflict there is
0:13:38 > 0:13:43between those in the British Government who want to counter
0:13:43 > 0:13:47illegal Russian state activity in this country and those who would
0:13:47 > 0:13:54prefer business to carry on as usual. The death of another Russian
0:13:54 > 0:13:59businessman in Surrey also produced allegations of foul play. The police
0:13:59 > 0:14:02were accused of failing to investigate properly and the
0:14:02 > 0:14:07government of wanting to avoid a row. But now there is the case of Mr
0:14:07 > 0:14:10Skripal and of evidence of Russian involvement grows, it will mark a
0:14:10 > 0:14:18significant change in its relations with the UK.It is an extraordinary
0:14:18 > 0:14:22ard joys of victim, it does not just break the rules, it is an entirely
0:14:22 > 0:14:27new game if they are doing this. Mr Skripal was off the board, he was
0:14:27 > 0:14:32living under his own name, he had been swapped out of Russia, he was
0:14:32 > 0:14:37not adopting any kind of public profile, so this is a breeze in full
0:14:37 > 0:14:43on challenge to Britain if Russia is indeed behind this attempted murder.
0:14:43 > 0:14:46These factors do not make you doubt it was some sort of Russian
0:14:46 > 0:14:51operation.It is very hard to spring, if Russian is behind it it
0:14:51 > 0:14:55means they are taking things to a whole new level. This is perfect
0:14:55 > 0:15:00declaration of war to bomb of someone like that if they did it. It
0:15:00 > 0:15:03makes me wonder whether it is for domestic consumption, they have not
0:15:03 > 0:15:06thought through the foreign policy, do they really want to destroy
0:15:06 > 0:15:10relations with Britain and the West, because that is what will happen if
0:15:10 > 0:15:13it turns out this was state-sponsored murder.
0:15:21 > 0:15:27Traders will kick the bucket, trust me.He even referred to the man sent
0:15:27 > 0:15:33to assassinate Trotsky. Just rhetoric, or state policy. The
0:15:33 > 0:15:36investigation in Wiltshire may soon give us an indication.
0:15:36 > 0:15:39Earlier I spoke to the Conservative MP Tom Tugenhadt, chair
0:15:39 > 0:15:41of the Foreign Affairs Select Committee.
0:15:41 > 0:15:43Was Boris Johnson right to all but point the finger
0:15:43 > 0:15:50at the Russian State?
0:15:50 > 0:15:52Well look, I don't think he did on this particular instance,
0:15:52 > 0:15:55but what he did do was point to a pattern and he is
0:15:55 > 0:15:57absolutely right to do that.
0:15:57 > 0:15:58Because there is a pattern.
0:15:58 > 0:16:01We have seen it in Montenegro, we have seen it in London
0:16:01 > 0:16:02with Litvinenko's murder.
0:16:02 > 0:16:05You know, we have seen this, time and again, where Russian agents
0:16:05 > 0:16:07have gone to foreign countries and used murder as a
0:16:07 > 0:16:08means of state policy.
0:16:08 > 0:16:10And it is completely unacceptable.
0:16:10 > 0:16:13So, do you believe then, that Russia was involved in this attack,
0:16:13 > 0:16:15if indeed it was an attack?
0:16:15 > 0:16:23Well look, I don't think he did on this particular instance,
0:16:27 > 0:16:28Well, I don't know at this stage.
0:16:28 > 0:16:31All I am saying is, it fits a pattern, and that raises
0:16:31 > 0:16:32enormous amounts of concern.
0:16:32 > 0:16:34The Russian response today says, it looks like the script
0:16:34 > 0:16:36of an anti-Russian campaign has already been written.
0:16:36 > 0:16:39Well, look, the job of the Russian Embassy is to defend
0:16:39 > 0:16:41the interests of the Russian state, including by desimulating
0:16:41 > 0:16:45and using stories, when the truth does not fit and they have been very
0:16:45 > 0:16:48good at that over a number of years and it does not surprise me
0:16:48 > 0:16:51at all but they are saying that sort of thing.
0:16:51 > 0:16:53Sometimes, if it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck,
0:16:53 > 0:16:57it might just be a duck and in this case, we have got a poisoning,
0:16:57 > 0:16:59we have got a Russian former intelligence chief,
0:16:59 > 0:17:02who defects to the West and we have now got him
0:17:02 > 0:17:04and his daughter in a comatose state on a bench in Salisbury.
0:17:04 > 0:17:06It does somehow fit that pattern.
0:17:06 > 0:17:09But do you think that by and large, the UK has been soft on Russia
0:17:09 > 0:17:13and the people that get to come here?
0:17:13 > 0:17:16Look, I think, actually, one thing that the Foreign Secretary has been
0:17:16 > 0:17:19very clear on is the reality of Russian threatening behaviour,
0:17:19 > 0:17:22the malign influence, as he put it, of Moscow over the last
0:17:22 > 0:17:28couple of years.
0:17:28 > 0:17:30We have seen that influence by the way in places like Georgia,
0:17:30 > 0:17:38where they have invaded and we have seen it in Ukraine,
0:17:40 > 0:17:42where they changed a European border by force for the first time
0:17:42 > 0:17:44since the Second World War, by seizing Crimea.
0:17:44 > 0:17:47We have seen it in our close ally, Estonia, where they kidnapped
0:17:47 > 0:17:50an Estonian official a couple of years ago and used cyber attacks
0:17:50 > 0:17:51on the economy in 2007.
0:17:51 > 0:17:54And so we have seen this pattern before, what we now need
0:17:54 > 0:17:57to see is a harsher, a more targeted response to Russian
0:17:57 > 0:17:59officials who are doing this and we can do it.
0:17:59 > 0:18:02This is why I am so pleased that the government has passed
0:18:02 > 0:18:05an act, we could do a little bit more to tighten it.
0:18:05 > 0:18:07I think that the criminal financing act that has been
0:18:07 > 0:18:10going through the Commons at the moment is a very important
0:18:10 > 0:18:12act, and I would like to see unexplained wealth orders,
0:18:12 > 0:18:15the sort of thing that are regularly used against ordinary criminals
0:18:15 > 0:18:17in the United Kingdom, used against oligarchs who are pawns
0:18:17 > 0:18:20of the Kremlin Mafia regime.
0:18:20 > 0:18:22Part of the reason I called the urgent question
0:18:22 > 0:18:25in Parliament today was to give the Foreign Secretary
0:18:25 > 0:18:28the opportunity, that he then very clearly took, which was to call out
0:18:28 > 0:18:32Russia for the malign influence that she has become in the world.
0:18:32 > 0:18:34This is an absolute...
0:18:34 > 0:18:37The problem is that then you have Boris Johnson,
0:18:37 > 0:18:40sound and fury, signifying what?
0:18:40 > 0:18:43Removal of a couple of officials from the World Cup?
0:18:43 > 0:18:45That is why I am calling on the government to do more.
0:18:45 > 0:18:49I am calling on the government to use, as I say, unexplained wealth
0:18:49 > 0:18:52orders to hit these guys where it hurts, in the bank balance
0:18:52 > 0:18:55and to make sure that they cannot own property, they cannot move
0:18:55 > 0:18:57through our cities, that they cannot start buying up our assets
0:18:57 > 0:19:00as they have been doing.
0:19:00 > 0:19:03But I think we can even go further.
0:19:03 > 0:19:05We have got two Russian propaganda channels which are operating
0:19:05 > 0:19:08from the United Kingdom, one based in Edinburgh.
0:19:08 > 0:19:10We need to be absolutely robust and make sure
0:19:10 > 0:19:14that they are absolutely complying with their Ofcom licenses,
0:19:14 > 0:19:16which somehow, given that the way that they report,
0:19:16 > 0:19:18strikes me as extremely unlikely.
0:19:18 > 0:19:22And I think we need to be absolutely robust in making sure that the rules
0:19:22 > 0:19:24apply absolutely firmly to them.
0:19:24 > 0:19:27Do you actually think that we should ban those stations?
0:19:27 > 0:19:34Well, if we can prove that they are what they certainly
0:19:34 > 0:19:36seem to be, then yes, I think we should.
0:19:36 > 0:19:38I see no reason why we should allow the propagation
0:19:38 > 0:19:41of information warfare, because that is actually what it is.
0:19:41 > 0:19:44I know it is politely called fake news, it isn't fake news,
0:19:44 > 0:19:45it is information warfare.
0:19:45 > 0:19:47We should call it what it is and we should stop it.
0:19:47 > 0:19:50Very briefly, to this case, have we let this man down?
0:19:50 > 0:19:53I don't know the details of this case and I am afraid
0:19:53 > 0:19:54I cannot comment on it.
0:19:54 > 0:19:58What we must do is to make sure, if there is Russian state collusion
0:19:58 > 0:20:00in this, we must make sure that the response is absolutely
0:20:00 > 0:20:03clear and robust and that may mean expelling some officials,
0:20:03 > 0:20:08it may mean sanctioning some individuals, but it should
0:20:08 > 0:20:11certainly mean making sure that the United Kingdom is not able
0:20:11 > 0:20:14to be used by oligarchs and Kremlin lackeys to launder their stolen
0:20:14 > 0:20:15and ill-gotten gains.
0:20:15 > 0:20:17Tom Tugenhat, thank you very much for joining us.
0:20:17 > 0:20:23Thank you.
0:20:23 > 0:20:27We asked to speak to the Russian government but no one was available.
0:20:27 > 0:20:29I'm joined by Lord McDonald QC who was director
0:20:29 > 0:20:32of Public Prosecutions at the time of the Litvinenko murder,
0:20:32 > 0:20:34and Baroness Pauline Neville Jones who was Security and Counter
0:20:34 > 0:20:36Terrorism minister under David Cameron, when Theresa May
0:20:36 > 0:20:40was Home Secretary.
0:20:40 > 0:20:48Good evening. When this happened in Salisbury everyone automatically
0:20:48 > 0:20:52thought about Alexander Litvinenko. It took so long to resolve that
0:20:52 > 0:21:00case. Do you think that the response of the UK Government was wanting?It
0:21:00 > 0:21:03did take a long time, at the CPS with quite quickly announced we
0:21:03 > 0:21:11thought there was a strong case against Andrei Lugovoi and he should
0:21:11 > 0:21:17be extradited to stand trial in London for the murder of Alexander
0:21:17 > 0:21:24Litvinenko. But the enquiry concluded that Andrei Lugovoi was
0:21:24 > 0:21:30responsible and another man as well and it was a Russian state execution
0:21:30 > 0:21:35which we had also strongly suspected and indicated we suspect it. And
0:21:35 > 0:21:40also in the view of Sir Roberts, President Putin had almost certainly
0:21:40 > 0:21:46known about this execution. So it took a long time although we got
0:21:46 > 0:21:49there in the end. I hope enquiry into this case will be swifter in
0:21:49 > 0:21:54coming to conclusions whatever they might be.You are a minister at the
0:21:54 > 0:22:00Home Office
0:22:00 > 0:22:04Home Office when Mrs Litvinenko was trying to get justice, seven years
0:22:04 > 0:22:08to get the enquiry, not a great result.And this time it has got to
0:22:08 > 0:22:16be faster, no doubt about that.But you regret that she had to spend all
0:22:16 > 0:22:23that time pushing against Tories may do did not want to grant an enquiry.
0:22:23 > 0:22:26We should learn from past mistakes and we need to do something faster
0:22:26 > 0:22:32and more conclusive. But what has now happened, and obviously we must
0:22:32 > 0:22:38wait to discover what has happened to this man, but I think we are now
0:22:38 > 0:22:41confronting a much bigger question about our relationship with Russia.
0:22:41 > 0:22:49And that is where government policy now needs to focus.Buzzfeed, the
0:22:49 > 0:22:56news service, plotted 14 different deaths and some may have been
0:22:56 > 0:23:01suspicious, some not. But in those cases do you think that we did not
0:23:01 > 0:23:07do enough to prioritise them? Looking into them? Well I would want
0:23:07 > 0:23:12to take them one by one and in the absence of having done the work of
0:23:12 > 0:23:15that kind I'm not prepared to pronounce on that. But I think we
0:23:15 > 0:23:19have a great deal now of evidence about our relationship with Russia
0:23:19 > 0:23:27and Russian behaviour towards the West.On that point of those 14
0:23:27 > 0:23:34possible cases of possible state involvement by the Russians, did we
0:23:34 > 0:23:40not take this seriously enough, happy to move to ideas perhaps of
0:23:40 > 0:23:46suicide or natural causes. We did not drill down for various reasons?
0:23:46 > 0:23:50These are 14 individual cases and they must be looked at individually.
0:23:50 > 0:23:54What we do know with the Litvinenko case is the Russian state is
0:23:54 > 0:23:59perfectly capable of ordering the execution on British streets of
0:23:59 > 0:24:03British citizen under the protection of the British state why the foulest
0:24:03 > 0:24:08mood. We know they are capable of that. We have to see what the result
0:24:08 > 0:24:16of the toxicology test is but if it turns out that this man and his
0:24:16 > 0:24:18daughter were poisoned as a result of direction from the Russian state
0:24:18 > 0:24:25that would indicate the Russian state itself is lawless and would
0:24:25 > 0:24:29make a catastrophic turning in our relations with Russia.The Russians
0:24:29 > 0:24:33are denying any involvement and recently President Putin talked
0:24:33 > 0:24:39about the fact that something like 400 spies were apprehended in Russia
0:24:39 > 0:24:45in 2017. So a very dangerous business on both sides.Very
0:24:45 > 0:24:48dangerous and that is why the response of the British Government
0:24:48 > 0:24:52has to be particularly carefully calibrated. But we can't have
0:24:52 > 0:24:57foreign governments organising assassinations on British streets
0:24:57 > 0:25:00particularly when the mechanism used is so dangerous to so many people
0:25:00 > 0:25:04and the individuals being murdered are under the protection of our
0:25:04 > 0:25:09state. It is not possible for a state to retain his dignity and
0:25:09 > 0:25:12permit that kind of conduct to take faith without a very robust
0:25:12 > 0:25:19response.You were security and countered terrorism minister in 2010
0:25:19 > 0:25:27when the spy swap took place, Mr Skripal was involved in that. There
0:25:27 > 0:25:35was a programme of rejection but did we let him down?We will need to
0:25:35 > 0:25:43look into that. On the face of it it would appear that whatever the
0:25:43 > 0:25:47protection was it was not adequate. Whether the indications of his
0:25:47 > 0:25:52security status were such you did not need to do what appear should
0:25:52 > 0:25:57have been necessary, what we now need to do is a full protection of
0:25:57 > 0:26:04unenhanced kind to anyone who may be in the same situation.Edward Lucas
0:26:04 > 0:26:07said if this is indeed a state-sponsored killing then we are
0:26:07 > 0:26:12in a completely different footing with Russia, that we have never been
0:26:12 > 0:26:18on a four foot up I would not quite put it so dramatically but I think
0:26:18 > 0:26:23it marks the point where we do need to change policy.I do think so.
0:26:23 > 0:26:28What we now have to do and not something the UK does by itself,
0:26:28 > 0:26:34what has happened here could happen in any European or any democratic
0:26:34 > 0:26:37society. So we need a long-term strategy of the kind that we have
0:26:37 > 0:26:41not actually thought we needed really since the Cold War. And we
0:26:41 > 0:26:46need something where we put the proposition to the Russians on one
0:26:46 > 0:26:52hand we will defend and detain you add on the other hand we will engage
0:26:52 > 0:26:56on conditions. And we need to formulate that as Europeans and with
0:26:56 > 0:27:01the help of the Americans.Thank you both.
0:27:01 > 0:27:05Coming up in the programme...
0:27:05 > 0:27:10If you look at social media you see hundreds of videos and you need to
0:27:10 > 0:27:19know where and when each bits of evidence have been recorded.The
0:27:19 > 0:27:23architects turned forensic sleuths.
0:27:23 > 0:27:25Following the crash of 2008, the word banker
0:27:25 > 0:27:27was akin to an insult and in the intervening decade
0:27:27 > 0:27:30there hasn't been a discernible improvement
0:27:30 > 0:27:31in their social standing.
0:27:31 > 0:27:34And sometimes people make no distinction between the behaviour
0:27:34 > 0:27:37of individual banks and the Bank of England itself.
0:27:37 > 0:27:40So tonight as part of an effort better to reflect the concerns
0:27:40 > 0:27:43of the country, the Bank of England announced that it is setting up
0:27:43 > 0:27:46Citizen's Reference Panels in every region to help inform the decisions
0:27:46 > 0:27:49of the Bank itself.
0:27:49 > 0:27:52No training in Economics will be necessary -
0:27:52 > 0:27:55in fact it might be a positive disadvantage - and members will be
0:27:55 > 0:27:58as diverse as is humanly possible which is more than you can say
0:27:58 > 0:28:02about the Bank of England itself.
0:28:02 > 0:28:04Take the most important committee -
0:28:04 > 0:28:06the Monetary Policy Committee - 8 members are white men,
0:28:06 > 0:28:09one member is female.
0:28:09 > 0:28:13The make-up of the Financial Policy Committee is even more male.
0:28:13 > 0:28:15Its members are almost exclusively white men,
0:28:15 > 0:28:18and there is just one woman.
0:28:18 > 0:28:21Add to that, of 67 most senior roles in the Bank,
0:28:21 > 0:28:27just eight are held by women, according to FT analysis.
0:28:27 > 0:28:29I talked to the Bank's Chief Economist Andy Haldane
0:28:29 > 0:28:30about that record.
0:28:30 > 0:28:32But first I asked if people just stopped trusting
0:28:32 > 0:28:34the Bank of England, bankers, and economists
0:28:34 > 0:28:40following the crash.
0:28:40 > 0:28:42I get the frustration that has flowed from the crisis.
0:28:42 > 0:28:43It was a big one.
0:28:43 > 0:28:44It affects everyone's lives.
0:28:44 > 0:28:47And it still is, even ten years on wages are still pretty flat,
0:28:47 > 0:28:49I get the frustration.
0:28:49 > 0:28:52But what we haven't seen from the public, and thank
0:28:52 > 0:28:54heavens we haven't seen it, is a complete rejection
0:28:54 > 0:28:59of the importance of these issues and of understanding them.
0:28:59 > 0:29:04One of the things we can do as the bank is to try
0:29:04 > 0:29:06and improve their understanding and indeed our understanding
0:29:06 > 0:29:09of those issues as well.
0:29:09 > 0:29:12Well, the RSA report suggests a regional citizens reference panel.
0:29:12 > 0:29:14Are you going to agree to that?
0:29:14 > 0:29:16Yes, we are.
0:29:16 > 0:29:17We are.
0:29:17 > 0:29:20So we have a whole slew of initiatives over the course
0:29:20 > 0:29:23of the last several years to reach further, to speak to
0:29:23 > 0:29:29a broader set of society.
0:29:29 > 0:29:32But what we've said today is that in the light
0:29:32 > 0:29:35of the RSA recommendations, we have listened, we have thought
0:29:35 > 0:29:37carefully about how best to take the next rung,
0:29:37 > 0:29:44if you like, up the engagement ladder.
0:29:44 > 0:29:47And that will mean putting in place a comprehensive
0:29:47 > 0:29:48set of citizens panels, regionally, using
0:29:48 > 0:29:53that agency network.
0:29:53 > 0:29:56So across class, diversity, age?
0:29:56 > 0:29:58Across all the key dimensions.
0:29:58 > 0:30:01Because we want as wide an angle lens on how the economy
0:30:01 > 0:30:07and financial system is doing as possible.
0:30:07 > 0:30:12And these councils are one extra means of doing that.
0:30:12 > 0:30:15Engaging with a cohort of society that traditionally the bank and most
0:30:15 > 0:30:18others have not done.
0:30:18 > 0:30:20I wonder how much the Bank of England truly can reflect
0:30:20 > 0:30:24the population when your gender pay gap is so bad and when your
0:30:24 > 0:30:31representation is so bad?
0:30:31 > 0:30:33On the Monetary Policy Committee eight of the nine members are men,
0:30:33 > 0:30:3612 of the 13 members on the financial policy committee
0:30:36 > 0:30:40are men and there is very little ethnic diversity in both.
0:30:40 > 0:30:41We need to do better.
0:30:41 > 0:30:44We have been absolutely clear about that on all of the dimensions
0:30:44 > 0:30:46of diversity including gender, including ethnicity and including
0:30:46 > 0:30:48the broader dimensions of diversity, which means thought
0:30:48 > 0:30:55and background and experience.
0:30:55 > 0:30:58And to some extent these citizens councils I mentioned can be part
0:30:58 > 0:31:06of the answer in bringing different sort of experiences to the table.
0:31:06 > 0:31:07But they can be a human shield?
0:31:07 > 0:31:08There are no human shield.
0:31:08 > 0:31:12Because I'm just going to throw another one at you.
0:31:12 > 0:31:19In terms of senior female employees, on average they and 24% less
0:31:23 > 0:31:26In terms of senior female employees, on average they earn 24% less
0:31:26 > 0:31:28per hour than male counterparts at the Bank of England,
0:31:28 > 0:31:30according to your first gender pay gap report.
0:31:30 > 0:31:3367 of the most senior roles in the Bank of England,
0:31:33 > 0:31:34eight are held by women.
0:31:34 > 0:31:35Yes.
0:31:35 > 0:31:37I mean, how quickly are you going to turn that round?
0:31:37 > 0:31:40Well, we have now targets, on both the gender and ethnicity side,
0:31:40 > 0:31:42that will take us to a better place.
0:31:42 > 0:31:46Because the place we start is not remotely where we want to be.
0:31:46 > 0:31:48We are absolutely clear that yes, we are on the case,
0:31:48 > 0:31:49and we will make a difference.
0:31:49 > 0:31:53You know, my background is different than many people here.
0:31:53 > 0:31:56Sometimes that has meant, you know, being here is not
0:31:56 > 0:31:57entirely straightforward.
0:31:57 > 0:31:58In what way?
0:31:58 > 0:32:01Well, you know, I was probably one of the first vintages that didn't go
0:32:01 > 0:32:05to Oxford or Cambridge.
0:32:05 > 0:32:07That didn't go to a public school.
0:32:07 > 0:32:09That might come at things from slightly different angles.
0:32:09 > 0:32:15The bank I joined might not have value that is much
0:32:15 > 0:32:17The bank I joined might not have valued that is much
0:32:17 > 0:32:19as the Bank of England today.
0:32:19 > 0:32:22So people look around and they think where are we going to put
0:32:22 > 0:32:30money, we get nothing in the banks particularly.
0:32:32 > 0:32:34A bit worried about stocks and shares.
0:32:34 > 0:32:36We will try something new, we will try a crypto currency.
0:32:36 > 0:32:39And Mark Carney has talked about that possible anarchy,
0:32:39 > 0:32:40with no regulation.
0:32:40 > 0:32:42I mean, does the bank think that crypto currencies
0:32:42 > 0:32:43are essentially dangerous?
0:32:43 > 0:32:44There are lots of potential risks.
0:32:44 > 0:32:47One of which is the danger to the consumer from
0:32:47 > 0:32:48buying into this stuff.
0:32:48 > 0:32:49Yes.
0:32:49 > 0:32:51Andrew Bailey, head of the Financial Conduct Authority,
0:32:51 > 0:32:53has made clear consumers need to look before they leap.
0:32:53 > 0:32:57Very carefully, when it comes to all matters crypto.
0:32:57 > 0:33:00They are not yet of a scale, less than 1% of global wealth,
0:33:00 > 0:33:03that would lead us to conclude I think that they pose
0:33:03 > 0:33:06a systemwide threat.
0:33:06 > 0:33:09They won't bring down the banks, not least because the banks
0:33:09 > 0:33:13are much better capitalised than they were a decade ago.
0:33:13 > 0:33:15When things grow rapidly, whether it is unsecured
0:33:15 > 0:33:20debt or crypto currency, we keep a careful eye.
0:33:20 > 0:33:22Would you ever buy into a crypto currency personally,
0:33:22 > 0:33:24as a little flutter?
0:33:24 > 0:33:25I think not.
0:33:25 > 0:33:31I'm afraid I'm a chronically risk averse investor.
0:33:31 > 0:33:34And far be it from me to offer any independent
0:33:34 > 0:33:35financial advice to anyone.
0:33:35 > 0:33:37Finally, do you think in the coming, say three decades,
0:33:37 > 0:33:40we are going to have to really rethink the nature of work
0:33:40 > 0:33:46and what work means in our society, the connection between work and pay?
0:33:46 > 0:33:48We are.
0:33:48 > 0:33:51In the past 300 years we have sort of stapled together
0:33:51 > 0:33:58the notion of work and pay.
0:33:58 > 0:34:02Work need not necessarily involve pay.
0:34:02 > 0:34:06Voluntary work is still work and with the rise of the robots,
0:34:06 > 0:34:14we might find more work taking a voluntary form.
0:34:14 > 0:34:16As well as requiring skills, you know, social skills.
0:34:16 > 0:34:21Interpersonal skills, negotiation, relationship holding, empathy.
0:34:21 > 0:34:22Sympathy.
0:34:22 > 0:34:26Much more of the world of work will I think in future draw upon not
0:34:26 > 0:34:33just our heads and our hands but also our hearts.
0:34:33 > 0:34:36The key point here is that we have dealt historically with industrial
0:34:36 > 0:34:40revolutions by putting in place new frameworks and new institutions.
0:34:40 > 0:34:44All revolutions bring new jobs and this will be no different.
0:34:44 > 0:34:45Andrew Haldane, thank you very much.
0:34:45 > 0:34:49Thank you, Kirsty.
0:34:49 > 0:34:51They're a team of sleuths who use sophisticated
0:34:51 > 0:34:53technology to crack crimes - but they're not an elite
0:34:53 > 0:34:55squad of detectives.
0:34:55 > 0:34:57In fact, they're architects, and they operate out
0:34:57 > 0:34:59of a London college.
0:34:59 > 0:35:01Forensic Architecture, as they're known, analyse social
0:35:01 > 0:35:03media data to investigate possible human rights abuses and war crimes
0:35:03 > 0:35:08on behalf of victims, charities and activist groups.
0:35:08 > 0:35:10They decline to work for governments and the police,
0:35:10 > 0:35:13but they insist they follow where the evidence leads them.
0:35:13 > 0:35:15Ahead of an exhibition of their work opening
0:35:15 > 0:35:17at the ICA in London tomorrow, Forensic Architecture have been
0:35:17 > 0:35:25talking about their work to Stephen Smith.
0:35:26 > 0:35:29This is where art meets activism.
0:35:29 > 0:35:32Believe it or not, this is a visual expression of data harvested
0:35:32 > 0:35:38from technology such as mobile phones and cameras.
0:35:38 > 0:35:40It's the raw material used in an emerging discipline known
0:35:40 > 0:35:48as Forensic Architecture.
0:35:49 > 0:35:52From this office at Goldsmiths College in London this team's
0:35:52 > 0:35:55retained by charities and human rights groups to investigate
0:35:55 > 0:36:01alleged crimes and abuses.
0:36:01 > 0:36:04Are they sure they're architects?
0:36:04 > 0:36:07We consider ourselves investigators and definitely there is an aspect
0:36:07 > 0:36:09there that is quite thrilling in terms of figuring
0:36:09 > 0:36:14out what has happened.
0:36:14 > 0:36:18The team's been working for a German NGO which has been accused of people
0:36:18 > 0:36:21smuggling in the Mediterranean.
0:36:21 > 0:36:24Italian prosecutors have claimed these images showed the NGO
0:36:24 > 0:36:32was towing a craft to the Libyan coast to collect migrants.
0:36:32 > 0:36:34Forensic Architecture analysed the movements of waves in the wind
0:36:34 > 0:36:37and claim this casts doubt on the prosecutor's argument.
0:36:37 > 0:36:40Although the case is ongoing.
0:36:40 > 0:36:45What this shows is that the boat was actually being towed,
0:36:45 > 0:36:48let's say perpendicular to the direction of the waves.
0:36:48 > 0:36:51Then the second thing that we did was compare this analysis
0:36:51 > 0:36:56with wind data from that day.
0:36:56 > 0:36:59And so what you see here is that once you put this image
0:36:59 > 0:37:02with the north on top, the boat was being towed
0:37:02 > 0:37:04actually North West.
0:37:04 > 0:37:07And not South as alleged by Italian prosecutors.
0:37:07 > 0:37:11You follow the evidence and the data where it leads, presumably.
0:37:11 > 0:37:17And if this had suggested that the NGO was at fault
0:37:17 > 0:37:19in some way, you would have revealed that, too?
0:37:19 > 0:37:20Well, of course.
0:37:20 > 0:37:22I mean, you know, we just like basing our analysis
0:37:22 > 0:37:25on the materials that we have and we follow the evidence,
0:37:25 > 0:37:28let's say, right?
0:37:28 > 0:37:31Yes.
0:37:31 > 0:37:33The modern battlefield or war zone is often urban
0:37:33 > 0:37:36and surveyed by social media.
0:37:36 > 0:37:40As an exhibition of their work opens at the ICA, Forensic Architecture
0:37:40 > 0:37:42say they scour this data to challenge official government
0:37:42 > 0:37:50or military accounts of controversial incidents.
0:37:50 > 0:37:53If you look simply at social media you'd see hundreds
0:37:53 > 0:37:55and hundreds and hundreds of videos posted online.
0:37:55 > 0:38:00They provide a lot of material, but not always more clarity.
0:38:00 > 0:38:03In order to gain clarity you need to start composing a story.
0:38:03 > 0:38:06You need to know where and when each one of those bits
0:38:06 > 0:38:08of evidence was recorded.
0:38:08 > 0:38:10And therefore you can start combining them and tell
0:38:10 > 0:38:15a story of that day.
0:38:15 > 0:38:17Governments have approached Forensic Architecture for their help.
0:38:17 > 0:38:23They always say no.
0:38:23 > 0:38:26Governments have enough means to undertake investigations,
0:38:26 > 0:38:30complex investigations.
0:38:30 > 0:38:32They don't need our help in that way.
0:38:32 > 0:38:34Civil society groups, human rights groups,
0:38:34 > 0:38:42communities who have been perfect fit, I'm looking for,
0:38:44 > 0:38:46communities who have been affected, I'm looking for,
0:38:46 > 0:38:47they are needing our help.
0:38:47 > 0:38:49That presumably doesn't make you too popular with some
0:38:49 > 0:38:50quite powerful people?
0:38:50 > 0:38:53Yes, I don't think we seek to be popular with those groups.
0:38:53 > 0:38:55But we believe that civil society needs independent
0:38:55 > 0:38:57means of investigation.
0:38:57 > 0:39:00It is not good enough for us to simply call for an independent
0:39:00 > 0:39:01enquiry or investigation.
0:39:01 > 0:39:04We actually believe that right now with the technology that we have
0:39:04 > 0:39:07and with a wealth of material that emerges out of conflict zones
0:39:07 > 0:39:09and areas where human rights violations are being undertaken,
0:39:09 > 0:39:17that we have the evidence to undertake investigations ourselves.
0:39:20 > 0:39:22Working from leaked photographs of the crime scene,
0:39:22 > 0:39:24we constructed a digital model of the Internet cafe.
0:39:24 > 0:39:27The team investigated a racist murder in an Internet cafe
0:39:27 > 0:39:30in Germany, recreating the scene to try and establish
0:39:30 > 0:39:34what exactly those present would have seen and heard.
0:39:34 > 0:39:40Their evidence was submitted to Parliamentary inquiries.
0:39:40 > 0:39:42Whatever this art exhibition is, it's a long way from
0:39:42 > 0:39:45old Masters and sunflowers.
0:39:45 > 0:39:49I think although it is strong in art, the ICA has always been also
0:39:49 > 0:39:54a place for counterculture to the official narratives.
0:39:54 > 0:40:02So therefore if you call it activism or look at contemporary culture
0:40:05 > 0:40:07through a political eye, the Institute of contemporary
0:40:07 > 0:40:09Art since its founding in 1947 by Herbert Read,
0:40:09 > 0:40:12was always a political, engaged and outspoken organisation.
0:40:12 > 0:40:14Few could have imagined that the data generated
0:40:14 > 0:40:16by smartphones and ubiquitous cameras would lead to
0:40:16 > 0:40:22the extraordinary practice of Forensic Architecture.
0:40:29 > 0:40:36Steve Smith. The front pages. The Telegraph, Vladimir Putin swore
0:40:36 > 0:40:41revenge on the Russian spy.
0:40:42 > 0:40:47revenge on the Russian spy. Then moving onto Guardian.
0:40:47 > 0:40:50moving onto Guardian. Neighbours say the man gave no hint of his past in
0:40:50 > 0:40:57espionage. Enquiries stepped up as the Foreign Secretary warns the
0:40:57 > 0:41:05Kremlin. Moving on to the sun.
0:41:09 > 0:41:10That's it for tonight.
0:41:10 > 0:41:13We leave you with a trip to one of the diving world's
0:41:13 > 0:41:15most beautiful spots, Manta Point in Tahiti.
0:41:15 > 0:41:17According to Rich Horner who filmed himself there,
0:41:17 > 0:41:18this was recorded on Saturday.
0:41:18 > 0:41:20See if you can spot an actual Manta.
0:41:20 > 0:41:23Goodnight.